Speaker 1: Hey, that's messed up listeners.
Speaker 2: Before we get into the episode, obviously, we do need
Speaker 2: to talk about June twenty fourth, twenty twenty two, the
Speaker 2: Supreme courp decided to overturn Roe v.
Speaker 1: Wade, and it's fucking horrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this decision has eliminated the opportunity for women to
Speaker 3: have safe and legal abortions. I don't believe abortions will stop,
Speaker 3: they will just not be safe and legal in many places.
Speaker 3: And we believe that everyone should have this freedom of choice.
Speaker 3: If you've ever listened to this podcast, you know that
Speaker 3: we're extremely pro choice and ending a pregnancy is a
Speaker 3: person's personal choice between them and their doctor.
Speaker 2: This decision is going to have such horrific consequences for
Speaker 2: individual health and safety, and it could also have harsh
Speaker 2: repercussions for other decisions in the future. Restricting access to
Speaker 2: comprehensive reproductive care, including abortion, threatens the health and independence
Speaker 2: of all Americans.
Speaker 3: So if you guys want to learn more, please check
Speaker 3: out Choice dot CRD dot That's choice dot c r
Speaker 3: D dot co. And if you're able to support others,
Speaker 3: please consider donating to abortion funds. We actually have many
Speaker 3: posted and we will actually We're going to start a
Speaker 3: highlight in our Instagram stories where you can find tons
Speaker 3: of abortion funds that we're going to be linking to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, speak up, take care, spread the word take care
Speaker 2: of yourselves, and you know, have empathy for others.
Speaker 3: Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.
Speaker 4: These are our stories dot done.
Speaker 2: Hey, it's that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger.
Speaker 3: And I am Kara Klank and you guys, I mean
Speaker 3: hopefully you know, we're in the eighties in terms of
Speaker 3: numbers of this podcast. And we do an episode of SVU.
Speaker 3: We do a true crime it's based on, we do
Speaker 3: a celebrity you know, and then before that we sort
Speaker 3: of chit chat a little bit and just tell you
Speaker 3: what's going on with us.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But maybe someone just is obsessed with limitations and this
Speaker 2: is their first one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I need, we really need to impress them. We
Speaker 1: do there, Like I wish there was a recap of
Speaker 1: an episode of television from twenty three years ago. Yeah, listen.
Speaker 2: Also, I was talking to some people when we were
Speaker 2: in San Francisco and they're like, yeah, but so many
Speaker 2: people watch us for you, and I go, yeah, but
Speaker 2: a lot of them like love the police and hate
Speaker 2: our opinions. So yeah, a lot of them, I think,
Speaker 2: join in and go you know, yeah, you can tell yeah,
Speaker 2: and then they go write a thing. I actually have
Speaker 2: not checked any of our reviews, and probably i'd want
Speaker 2: to say eight months. Oh, I haven't looked in a
Speaker 2: long time. But that's pretty good for you. I usually
Speaker 2: am only like once every few months. You used to
Speaker 2: really get in there.
Speaker 3: I used to check them out every few weeks, but
Speaker 3: now I don't.
Speaker 1: You're being generous to yourself. I think.
Speaker 3: I really haven't looked in. I haven't looked at least
Speaker 3: a month, at least maybe two. Yeah. So if you're
Speaker 3: writing us a review and you're here to see if
Speaker 3: I'm going to respond to it, I'm not. I mean
Speaker 3: a bad one. If it's a good one, thank you
Speaker 3: so much.
Speaker 1: We appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I know this is going to be
Speaker 2: so far in the future, and I'm sorry about the
Speaker 2: weird timeness, but this was also from last episode. This
Speaker 2: is nuts, but they are doing a Drag Race All
Speaker 2: Stars episode where they have to do their own TRL segment.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm excited. It's it, you've already seen it.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about it next time. But I cannot fucking
Speaker 2: wait right up your alley.
Speaker 3: As we just talked last episode about how Lisa brutalized
Speaker 3: her parents' home in order to get to a TRL
Speaker 3: video for Pierre.
Speaker 2: I just like my age coincided with the best era
Speaker 2: of pop music that's ever existed, and it just like
Speaker 2: has a whole on me that will never go away.
Speaker 1: And that's so.
Speaker 3: So did you know that My career at MTV started
Speaker 3: when I started working on a show called The Seven
Speaker 3: that was existed for nine months in twenty ten, and
Speaker 3: it was it was them kind of trying to bring
Speaker 3: TRL back. Not as much music video stuff and no
Speaker 3: in studio audience, but it was in the TRL studio.
Speaker 3: So I was in the TRL studio like every day.
Speaker 1: For nine months. I was like the social media person
Speaker 1: and yeah, it was did you look out the window?
Speaker 1: Yeah all the time.
Speaker 3: Oh and there was one cool moment where we did wait,
Speaker 3: this was a separate thing when I worked at MTV News.
Speaker 3: Later we had a concert where Lady Gaga was announcing
Speaker 3: it was a premiere of one of her videos.
Speaker 1: So they did it TRL style.
Speaker 3: They're like, we're going to premiere her video, and I
Speaker 3: honestly cannot tell you which video it was, but they
Speaker 3: had to shut down times.
Speaker 2: They're going to come for you the monsters. Oh, I thought,
Speaker 2: I don't know why. I heard Maria Mariah Carey's are
Speaker 2: the lamps? No, I heard Maria carry this whole time.
Speaker 2: That's what I was envisioning.
Speaker 1: Oh no, Lady Gaga. Did I say Mariah carry? No?
Speaker 1: I just heard something different. Oh okay, what is it?
Speaker 2: A mandala effect? Like I just had something different and
Speaker 2: attached to it.
Speaker 3: Barren Steam bears, Yeah, I yeah, it was Lady Gaga.
Speaker 3: And so I had the TRL experience where it was
Speaker 3: like full audience of people dressed as in Gaga like outfits,
Speaker 3: full time square shut down Lady Gaga.
Speaker 1: Sway the whole, the whole deal. I think I've told
Speaker 1: you this story. I told you. Sway told me he
Speaker 1: was nervous.
Speaker 3: No, So Sway goes, I'm in the elevator with Sway
Speaker 3: and I'm like, how you doing? And he goes, I'm nervous,
Speaker 3: Like Lady Gaga and I go sway, your sway, Lady
Speaker 3: Gaga's probably been watching you since she was sixteen years old, Like,
Speaker 3: do not worry about it? And he was like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess they didn't think about.
Speaker 1: It that way. And then afterwards he told me he
Speaker 1: goes that really helped me. Thank you for saying that
Speaker 1: to me.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's incredible.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was like I just was like, sway, you've been around,
Speaker 3: like you've been in my life. Like I just feel
Speaker 3: like tangentially through MTV and everything like forever, like Lady
Speaker 3: gagaz gooped to be meeting you, Like why are you
Speaker 3: like so nervous? You know, because it was like a
Speaker 3: huge thing. It was a very trl throwback. No, but
Speaker 3: that a Parna has done something like that for me.
Speaker 3: A partner, non Charla. She's a very successful person and
Speaker 3: all very funny girl friend.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she is.
Speaker 2: The teen horse and BoJack Horseman. She's also herself and
Speaker 2: lots of things. But I love her as the little
Speaker 2: horse that I don't know why I can't remember her name.
Speaker 2: So I was to do it the first year of Clusterfest.
Speaker 2: I was doing that, but I didn't realize how big
Speaker 2: of a deal. It was gonna be like I just
Speaker 2: didn't realize. So I was at my friend Josie's house,
Speaker 2: having some cocktails, smoking some weed, and I was hosting
Speaker 2: a six o'clock show or something, and I was like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 2: We get stuck in terrible traffic. The people are calling me,
Speaker 2: They're like where are you. They're like, you know you're
Speaker 2: hosting this, and I was like, I'm just I'm gonna
Speaker 2: have to be there as on time as I can.
Speaker 2: The traffic wasn't moving. I had to get out and
Speaker 2: I had to run. I was like sprinting through the
Speaker 2: streets to get to this venue.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I hate this.
Speaker 2: I'm like sweating. It's like a minute by minute it's counting.
Speaker 2: I'm like trying to run to this venue. I show up.
Speaker 2: It's it's the arena. It seats ten thousand. There's like
Speaker 2: six to eight thousand people in there. I'm like dripping
Speaker 2: sweat running. I make it right on time, and Aparna
Speaker 2: just said, pretend like it's the cellar. And then I
Speaker 2: walked on stage and it was like a Parna just
Speaker 2: like did everything like yeah, just said the right thing
Speaker 2: at the right moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I was.
Speaker 2: Able to host and like relax, and I think about
Speaker 2: a partner a lot when I'm like about to be stressed.
Speaker 1: I think I'd like to think that Sway thinks about
Speaker 1: me a lot.
Speaker 2: Oh, I one hundred percent. I mean that's what led
Speaker 2: me to think of the story. You truly change. You
Speaker 2: were responsible for sweating, not for his performance. He could
Speaker 2: have been like nervous and weird and not performed at
Speaker 2: the level. Sometimes you just need a good pep Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like I had a good Julia gave me a
Speaker 2: good talking too. Remember after my friend was being not nice? Yeah, yes,
Speaker 2: like the best pep talk off my life. And I
Speaker 2: was like, you're right, I don't know, it just feels nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, love a good ever talk. What we're doing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, pep talk times like remember the Titans, Like live
Speaker 2: it out in little moments throughout your day. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is the bad date. So it's not even oh
Speaker 2: my god anymore.
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Wait a minute.
Speaker 3: You cannot just launch into it like this, Okay, everybody.
Speaker 3: We Lisa teased a bad date like maybe two months
Speaker 3: ago on the podcast that she had a bad date
Speaker 3: and then was like, I'll tell you guys, next week
Speaker 3: and then never did and people have written us messages
Speaker 3: where's the.
Speaker 1: Bad day matter?
Speaker 2: Like it was just like in that moment, it was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, this just happened.
Speaker 1: And then now it's like I could care. Like it
Speaker 1: was just you know, like yeah.
Speaker 3: Now it's yeah, but everybody has been asking us at
Speaker 3: live show, so now finally we're going to hear about it,
Speaker 3: and I'm excited.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was just like a tender moment.
Speaker 2: I was looking for, I would say, a fun hookup,
Speaker 2: and this person was meeting me in the hotel lobby
Speaker 2: bar and when I met him, like I just need
Speaker 2: to be complimented or what am I doing here? So
Speaker 2: I didn't get a compliment, didn't love it, but I could,
Speaker 2: you know, move past that. And then I had to
Speaker 2: buy my own drinks, so I was like, this is
Speaker 2: kind of a nightmare. And then I got tipsy and
Speaker 2: I was like talking myself into liking this person that
Speaker 2: I was not that into. And then I was talking
Speaker 2: this was just a funny moment, but we're I was
Speaker 2: talking about someone and I was like, oh, but they're millionaires,
Speaker 2: and he goes, how do you know I'm not a millionaire?
Speaker 2: And I was like, you truly took the bus here
Speaker 2: and you have not bought me a drink. I'm like,
Speaker 2: you're not a millionaire. But I kept just like seeing
Speaker 2: past this. So then we go outside to smoke weed,
Speaker 2: and oh, after twenty minutes too, I had to be like,
Speaker 2: you know, you have not asked me one question and
Speaker 2: he goes, no, I have. I go, no, you typed
Speaker 2: that earlier. I'm like, you've not asked me one question
Speaker 2: in twenty minutes. I'm just letting that. I just need
Speaker 2: you to know that.
Speaker 1: But weren't.
Speaker 3: Things were going okay right at that point.
Speaker 2: Then yeah, I talk to myself and so yeah, we
Speaker 2: were like chatting to it okay, but he was like
Speaker 2: annoying for sure, Like I did like after what happened
Speaker 2: at the end, like you put all the pieces together
Speaker 2: Memento style, you know what I mean. Like I would
Speaker 2: say I like this movie, like that's a dumb movie
Speaker 2: because of this and that and that, and it was
Speaker 2: just like okay, yeah, I still like, what do you talk?
Speaker 2: Don't talk about me. I'm like, truly, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So we're outside and he goes, listen, I gotta be honest,
Speaker 2: I'm really not into this anymore, and I went, what
Speaker 2: are you kidding? He goes, no, I'm not like the
Speaker 2: past ten minutes. I'm just like kind of done. And
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I'm like all right, we'll have
Speaker 2: a good night. And then he went, I'm kidding, and
Speaker 2: I went I asked you if you were kidding, and
Speaker 2: you said you weren't, and he goes, I thought you
Speaker 2: were a comedian.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. It all came running back.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, you hate that this because he
Speaker 2: kept being like, so you do it for money? Like
Speaker 2: and so I go, what does that have to do?
Speaker 2: He goes, it's a bit. Why don't you get the
Speaker 2: bit like if you're a comedian, like it's and I
Speaker 2: go all right, and he's and then he went into
Speaker 2: this long tirade about like it's like being Will Smith
Speaker 2: you I and like censorship started quoting Chris Rock and
Speaker 2: it's like I've fought with Chris Rock, like he took
Speaker 2: chips off my plate. Don't fucking quote Chris Rock to me, Like,
Speaker 2: I don't think you know who you're fucking talking to, bitch,
Speaker 2: Are you out of your mind?
Speaker 6: Oh?
Speaker 3: By god?
Speaker 1: I didn't have anything to prove.
Speaker 2: I was just like what And he's like, uh, censorship
Speaker 2: as fucked. You have to allow all jokes or no jokes.
Speaker 2: I'm like, we're not instage. I don't care what you think.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't need this dynamic in my life.
Speaker 2: I'm like, you're not not.
Speaker 1: Allowing a joke.
Speaker 3: It's not funny, it's not a joke, Like, oh my god, honestly,
Speaker 3: it's really it's a nag.
Speaker 1: He's trying. He was trying to nag you, to throw
Speaker 1: you off. Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: So then he went did I just fuck this up?
Speaker 2: And I went yeah, and then I went inside and
Speaker 2: then it was like whatever. But and then it was
Speaker 2: pissed because I smoked weed and then I was too
Speaker 2: high to kind of do anything else. But so it
Speaker 2: was just so fucking annoying, and I know this type
Speaker 2: of parton, and it was just like I kept like
Speaker 2: allowing things to happen. And then at the end it
Speaker 2: was like, of course you're a weird little incel.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: That's like, yeah, mad about my life because you have
Speaker 2: a roommate.
Speaker 3: I went on a double date with Jared's friend, him
Speaker 3: and his wife, and he convinced me for like half
Speaker 3: an hour that he had never tried to taco before
Speaker 3: and like, okay, that's kind of funny.
Speaker 1: Like after a half an.
Speaker 3: Hour, I was like, wait you seriously, He's like I
Speaker 3: live in Canada, like we just tacos are not as
Speaker 3: readily available, Like I just have never tried tacos before.
Speaker 1: That's like a stupid bit.
Speaker 3: Of like just kidding, Ah, gotcha, that's like dumb and
Speaker 3: stupid and like a funny joke, not like hi, everything
Speaker 3: about you and this interaction is like not going great
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: Jk.
Speaker 3: Like it's just not funny, Like you cannot explain to
Speaker 3: me how that's funny.
Speaker 1: Well, lying isn't a joke.
Speaker 2: And that's what I think a lot of people who
Speaker 2: think they're sarcastic or funny think, because he also was
Speaker 2: trying to convince me that he had like a Sopranos
Speaker 2: tattoo on his butt and then he didn't.
Speaker 1: And it's like okay, but what lying is not here?
Speaker 2: I don't get it, Like I'm not a cynic. I
Speaker 2: don't like lies. I don't really improve in life, like
Speaker 2: I'm not going with your bits. Okay, have you had
Speaker 2: a taco or not? I don't care about what you're
Speaker 2: about to do like I don't need this bit. I
Speaker 2: don't need it, like even with gay, Like when we're
Speaker 2: playing at Telestrations, there's one group of friends, my friend
Speaker 2: from her friends like to do little joke pictures and
Speaker 2: I go, what is this? I want to play this
Speaker 2: game how it's supposed to be played Like, I just
Speaker 2: I don't like fakeness.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you as grounded as possible is my
Speaker 2: level of living. And I don't need to be tricked
Speaker 2: and that you're not into this.
Speaker 1: It's like okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 2: It's kind of when I went on that date with
Speaker 2: the girl who came to my house and the first
Speaker 2: thing she said, she goes, that's what you decided to wear,
Speaker 2: And I was like, are we trying to fuck or what?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 2: Why are you not nice to me? I just don't
Speaker 2: understand it. I don't get it.
Speaker 1: No, you gotta give a call.
Speaker 3: I mean you got I give a compliment just to
Speaker 3: a friend I see off like after a while, like
Speaker 3: great to see you.
Speaker 1: You look great? You know, like I like this, I
Speaker 1: like that, Like I like your bracelet whatever, you know.
Speaker 2: I just don't I just don't understand a world where
Speaker 2: you wouldn't be nice to the person you're trying to
Speaker 2: have sex with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just that's the thing.
Speaker 3: The entire thing of the pickup artist is against that.
Speaker 3: It's like, throw a woman off their guard, nag them,
Speaker 3: make them feel like they are lucky to have you.
Speaker 3: Like this kind of shit, you know, like where it's
Speaker 3: not about complimenting or being nice to the person you
Speaker 3: want to fuck.
Speaker 1: It's crazy, You're right. I don't know. I just don't
Speaker 1: find it.
Speaker 4: That guy.
Speaker 1: I hope he listens to the pod. No, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. He's managing a nerd rapper.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what his life is.
Speaker 2: But was so annoyed.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Well I'm glad everybody finally got the
Speaker 1: fucking story. I know, but it's so antyclic.
Speaker 3: No, we need the whole All of our dick wolf
Speaker 3: babies can send that man bad energy now, it's worth it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just weird. It's like I couldn't have
Speaker 2: been more of a sure thing, Like you're meeting in
Speaker 2: my hotel.
Speaker 1: Bar, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like it's
Speaker 1: like sex is.
Speaker 3: An elevator ride away, you stupid dumba I'm just like
Speaker 3: so confused that like all the behavior that had happened.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's the Internet, It's the wild West.
Speaker 1: It is oh man.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I I'm sad that I never really got to
Speaker 3: do Tinder, and other times I'm like, maybe it's for
Speaker 3: the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: It's like I think it's fun when you're on vacation,
Speaker 2: and then it's like, yeah, I don't know, a nightmare
Speaker 2: if you're where you're living. That's how I feel. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like in London, it's like eh, and then when you're
Speaker 2: in la it's like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well what do you think We just get started?
Speaker 1: Get into today episode? We have an episode an early
Speaker 1: guy this week.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah, season one. I demanded this one.
Speaker 2: I don't know why, I just I demanded it. I
Speaker 2: remember sending an email being like we have to do it,
Speaker 2: and I'm glad to get it.
Speaker 1: It is good.
Speaker 3: It's a good one. We have a fun guest and
Speaker 3: let's just get going. Guys, stay where you are. So
Speaker 3: here we are back in season one, episode fourteen, A
Speaker 3: very pre nine to eleven date of February eleventh, two
Speaker 3: thousand is when this episode came out.
Speaker 1: It's called limitations. I don't even know if I said
Speaker 1: that already.
Speaker 3: Limitations And we open on a map and we hear
Speaker 3: this man talking about how there's been a bunch of
Speaker 3: robberies by the same guy with no arrest, and then
Speaker 3: Cam returns to Isaiah Whitlock junior legend, who I guess
Speaker 3: people know from the Wire. I don't because I've never
Speaker 3: seen the wire. Sadly you know him, Oh my god,
Speaker 3: veep like he's been a fifth Hour. He's been on
Speaker 3: six episodes of his playing all different kinds of roles.
Speaker 3: We want them on the pod. If you know, Isaiah,
Speaker 3: let us know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be amazing. Actually,
Speaker 3: we need to find an episode where he's like more
Speaker 3: this is This would not be a good one for
Speaker 3: him because he's sitting there. He's under fire from this
Speaker 3: like neasily white man who is the commissioner. And this
Speaker 3: is one of those calm stat meetings where like the
Speaker 3: higher up cop guys who like never really do any
Speaker 3: actual work with people or victims, just scream at the
Speaker 3: detectives and humiliate them in front of their peers while
Speaker 3: they wear their fanciest uniform.
Speaker 1: It's like a sorority hazing.
Speaker 3: It's truly like, yeah, it's like get on your fanciest outfit.
Speaker 1: We're gonna scream at you in front of everyone. That
Speaker 1: is what it is.
Speaker 3: So I guess in a way like it is a
Speaker 3: good thing to have because it keeps police accountable and
Speaker 3: like calls out mistakes. But it always feels like on
Speaker 3: SVU they're just like find the rapist by tomorrow at
Speaker 3: noon or you're all fired, and it's like, okay, like
Speaker 3: it's not that easy, and the SVU guys are always like,
Speaker 3: we're actually trying quite hard. But anyway, Isaiah Whitlock is going, yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, we made a mistake because they didn't connect
Speaker 3: all these robberies to each other until it was like
Speaker 3: too late or something. And then at the end the
Speaker 3: Commissioner's like you're being reassigned.
Speaker 1: It's like brutal.
Speaker 3: It feels like it's at the end of the sorority
Speaker 3: thing and they're like you're cut, like you're not joining
Speaker 3: like so he kind of just gets up tail between
Speaker 3: his legs leaves. You see Benson and Stabler sitting in
Speaker 3: the gallery with Daddy Craigan, and Benson has a look
Speaker 3: on her face like goo and Craigs is up next,
Speaker 3: and they he says good morning, so apparently it's morning
Speaker 3: in this room, but the NYPD cannot afford light bulbs
Speaker 3: or windows. The room is dark. There is a seance
Speaker 3: happening in there. And the Commissioner is like, good morning,
Speaker 3: Captain Craigan heard there's a guy jacking off on the
Speaker 3: third Avenue bus and Craigan's like, never fear. Benson and
Speaker 3: Stabler got that guy yesterday. So now he throws up
Speaker 3: a random slide of a map of Manhattan with three
Speaker 3: dots at various addresses, and he's like he's trying to
Speaker 3: like pull one over on Craigan kind of, he's trying
Speaker 3: to make him look bad, and he's like, recognize this map,
Speaker 3: and he's like, no, I do not, and he's like,
Speaker 3: three break in reaps in less than a week, and
Speaker 3: the DNA backlog just matched them last week to the
Speaker 3: same unknown assailant. And Craigan's like, I do not remember that,
Speaker 3: and the Commissioner's like, well, if you.
Speaker 1: Had read your circular, you would know. And so I
Speaker 1: guess the circular is like a newsletter that the cops
Speaker 1: send out and expect everyone to read right away.
Speaker 2: I imagine a lot of spelling errors and weird commas
Speaker 2: I feel like, and Craig bar newsletter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there's like an eagle clip art at the
Speaker 3: top of it, Like.
Speaker 2: Sure miss the word art options from Microsoft word I
Speaker 2: wish it had. I wish Google slides had that fun
Speaker 2: those fun words. I like the rainbows and the thing
Speaker 2: like the yeah.
Speaker 1: The turquoise. It looked like it was popping forward, Like
Speaker 1: I missed those.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have to go find your own PMNG files
Speaker 3: now it's annoying. But so the guy goes with, you
Speaker 3: had read your circular, which I imagine yeahs like the
Speaker 3: Trader Joe's Fearless Flyer or whatever it's called, then you
Speaker 3: would know that this is newly identified rape pattern four
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five. And Craigan's like, well, I was in
Speaker 3: homicide in nineteen ninety five, and he's like, this is
Speaker 3: still your case, homeboy, Like you better figure it out.
Speaker 3: And if you don't make any headway on these cases
Speaker 3: soon we will be time barred from prosecuting them due
Speaker 3: to the five year statute of limitations on rape in
Speaker 3: New York. So I wanted to just really briefly touch
Speaker 3: on this because the statute of limitations in New York
Speaker 3: was five years for rape and it has now as
Speaker 3: of twenty nineteen alleged sex pest and then Governor Andrew
Speaker 3: Cuomo passed a law expanding the statute of limitations. When
Speaker 3: I found the photo of the signing of this law,
Speaker 3: Julianne Moore was there, Mira Sorvino, Amber Tamblin and Season
Speaker 3: one and two's Michelle Hurd Jeffries was sitting right by
Speaker 3: the governor signing this and she's a big part.
Speaker 1: Of this episode. So I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 3: So under this new law, the statute of limitations for
Speaker 3: reporting second degree rape increases to twenty years and third
Speaker 3: degree rape increases to ten years. Previously both were five years.
Speaker 3: And then there is I believe, no statute of limitations
Speaker 3: for rape one. So I was just curious about the
Speaker 3: degrees and I look that up too. So rape in
Speaker 3: the third degree is just general non consensual sex. In
Speaker 3: the second degree it is when it happens with someone
Speaker 3: who is less than fifteen or incapable of consenting due
Speaker 3: to it like a mental disability or in capacity. And
Speaker 3: then rape in the first degree is when it happens
Speaker 3: with force, like there's a weapon involved.
Speaker 1: So that's why a lot of them.
Speaker 3: Are first degree in SVU because someone's usually at knife
Speaker 3: point or gunpoint or something like that, so there's an
Speaker 3: implied threat of violence or a real threat of violence.
Speaker 3: Or the victim is less than thirteen years old. And
Speaker 3: then it says or less than eleven years old if
Speaker 3: the alleged rapist is a minor, so that's rape one.
Speaker 1: That's the first degree.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, this new law is great because it
Speaker 3: extends it for most cases, and the statute of limitations
Speaker 3: for incests and the first degree extends to twenty years
Speaker 3: and it's great, But in this episode the statute is
Speaker 3: five years. So it's this is one of those count down,
Speaker 3: running against the clock episodes that we love slash hating.
Speaker 2: I know, but I just wish I could be there
Speaker 2: in the meeting when they all decided to make a limit,
Speaker 2: Like that's what is confusing to me, Like, I just
Speaker 2: don't even understand how you would why and how you
Speaker 2: would do this.
Speaker 3: Well, they talk about it in this episode. They talk
Speaker 3: about it later and they say it's like so that
Speaker 3: you know, American citizens don't walk around for inordinate amount
Speaker 3: of time, worried that the government can bring charges against
Speaker 3: them whenever they want. I think it's like to prevent
Speaker 3: government they I think they it's implied that it's like
Speaker 3: to prevent abuse of the system or something.
Speaker 1: But this was also.
Speaker 3: Before a lot of DNA and medical like scientific breakthroughs
Speaker 3: had happened, so people thought.
Speaker 1: Of rape a lot, as he said.
Speaker 3: She said, and I'm sure the reason that there's a
Speaker 3: statute of limitations is because it's like, well, you can't
Speaker 3: just let a woman ruin your life after ten years,
Speaker 3: like you know, it's bullshit, It's complete bullshit. But yeah,
Speaker 3: that is what they try to address it in this episode,
Speaker 3: like it's a constant, usual thing.
Speaker 1: But anyway, in this episode, we're dealing with five years.
Speaker 3: The commissioner asked Craig and if he's spoken to any
Speaker 3: of these victims, and he's like, no, I literally, you
Speaker 3: just told me about the pattern. And he says, well,
Speaker 3: today's your lucky day because one.
Speaker 1: Of them is here.
Speaker 3: And then the back doors of the comstat meeting open
Speaker 3: and this absolute boss bitch with a bumpet walks in
Speaker 3: like she owns the place, struts to the front, turns
Speaker 3: around like she's about to own the whole debate team.
Speaker 3: And her name is Victoria Kraft and she testifies about
Speaker 3: her rape in nineteen ninety five when a man broke
Speaker 3: into her apartment, stripped, got into bed with her, raped her,
Speaker 3: maced her, and then left and she notified police.
Speaker 1: Is like, such overkill. It's like you already did the rape.
Speaker 3: What do you make now for I think it's Nichoh yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe so they can't go after I don't know, I
Speaker 3: don't know. So horrible, and then she notified the police
Speaker 3: there's been no arrest and she is confused on the
Speaker 3: same as Lisa about why and me about why there
Speaker 3: even is a step five year statute of limitation on rape,
Speaker 3: and she jokes it's harder to dodge a parking tick it,
Speaker 3: and then she asks SVU to revisit the case before
Speaker 3: the statute expires, and Craigan thanks Misscraft and promises to
Speaker 3: assign her case the highest priority, and then we're at
Speaker 3: the credits. Baby, So now top of act one, we're
Speaker 3: back in the squad and Jeffries is like, hey, how
Speaker 3: is comstat as if Compstat's ever good, and they're all like, uh,
Speaker 3: it was terrible, and Munch says, yeah, compstat's like having
Speaker 3: the irs audit you every three weeks, I guess your work.
Speaker 3: But Craigan, you know, the consummate captain, is like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a pain in the ass, but it does help
Speaker 3: weed out the slackers who aren't pulling their weight, Like,
Speaker 3: it's not that bad for guys like me, who are
Speaker 3: like the best captain in the world. And that's you know,
Speaker 3: that's why Daddy Craigan's not like the other captains.
Speaker 1: And uh.
Speaker 3: He hands Jeffries the file on another victim named Jennifer
Speaker 3: Neil and tells Benson and Stabler to take the other
Speaker 3: two victims so they don't have an ID on the DNA.
Speaker 3: So they're just gonna call him John Doe one twenty
Speaker 3: one and his as we've as we've heard from Vicky
Speaker 3: breaking in getting into bed with the women. When they
Speaker 3: wake up, his faces covered with a stocking, attacks them,
Speaker 3: maces them, gets dressed in leaves. So they're wondering why
Speaker 3: did he stop at three, and Craigan's like, well, he
Speaker 3: may have started wearing a condom very possibly, and Munch
Speaker 3: is like, huh, a thoughtful rapist, and it's like classic Munch.
Speaker 3: So then The profile of this guy is he's a
Speaker 3: white male twenties at this point, maybe in his thirties,
Speaker 3: between five ten and sixty one, one hundred and sixty pounds,
Speaker 3: but that could have changed it. It's been five years long.
Speaker 3: Black or brown hair could be a buzz cut by now.
Speaker 3: They don't have a lot to go on. You just
Speaker 3: described like half the men in New York. Jeffries points
Speaker 3: out the statute and Craigan's like, yeah, that's the point, babe,
Speaker 3: Like that's what we're talking about. That's why we're hustling
Speaker 3: on this, and like she's like, but there's a statue.
Speaker 3: So I think this is also season one where they're
Speaker 3: still hammering a lot of the technical at you because
Speaker 3: it hasn't become secondhand language to the viewers the way
Speaker 3: it has now where you're like, oh, this is first degree,
Speaker 3: second degree this, so we're going to do that. So
Speaker 3: they're really like, I don't know, it feels like they're
Speaker 3: hammering in a lot of the like let's go over
Speaker 3: this guy's m O again. Let's go even though we
Speaker 3: just heard it five seconds ago in the open, you know,
Speaker 3: like they're just doing a lot of hammering. So anyway,
Speaker 3: Cragan is going to try to play some legal tricks
Speaker 3: and see if the DA can file an arrest warrant
Speaker 3: based on this guy's DNA, which is like sort of
Speaker 3: a sneaky way to get an extension so that they
Speaker 3: have more time. So they would seek a warrant for him,
Speaker 3: and instead of using his name in the warrant or
Speaker 3: address or something like that, they would use his DNA
Speaker 3: because that is individual to every single person. So Jeffrey says, oh,
Speaker 3: they're trying that in Wisconsin. So I do bet this
Speaker 3: was based on a real thing. I did not look
Speaker 3: it up. I'm sorry. Cragan writes that the amount of
Speaker 3: time they have in each case, he puts up a
Speaker 3: photo of every woman and over their faces he puts
Speaker 3: how much time they have, and it's four days, three days,
Speaker 3: one day, which is completely nuts.
Speaker 1: Like this is definitely a TV.
Speaker 3: Show to think that cops are going to solve a
Speaker 3: cold case in a day or even four days, but
Speaker 3: you know he was gonna try. So now we're in
Speaker 3: the apartment of Lois Crean. She is like this mousey
Speaker 3: little brunette who seems very like Cage and shy, and
Speaker 3: she's played by I believe it's pronounced Shawna se A
Speaker 3: na Shauna Kofo ed well, I don't know. I'm sorry, Shawna.
Speaker 3: I'm butchering your name in all ways. And she still
Speaker 3: actually works a lot and was a recurring on clause,
Speaker 3: but I cannot remember her character at all.
Speaker 1: But clauses on. That was like my favorite thing that.
Speaker 3: If you miss if you missed the video of me
Speaker 3: getting onto the plane, I was trying to show how
Speaker 3: I always walk past Lisa in first class and the
Speaker 3: minute this woman got out of the way so I
Speaker 3: could see Lisa with my camera, Lisa goes clauses on.
Speaker 1: It was great.
Speaker 2: So I think I watched Insecure on that flight and
Speaker 2: I watched so.
Speaker 1: It just it is good. It's just you don't You're
Speaker 1: not able.
Speaker 2: To get the full depth of how good a show
Speaker 2: is when you have to wait week after week, like
Speaker 2: the binge is the way to really appreciate it. And
Speaker 2: I watched it four in a row, and it's like yes,
Speaker 2: or two in a row or whatever. And that's what
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do with Hacks, Like I can't wait. I know,
Speaker 2: I just need to sit down and watch all the hacks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then I'm halfway through the first episode, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, I need to just sit when I have time.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be an incredible day.
Speaker 3: I mean, if my kids could stop getting diseases for
Speaker 3: one second, that would be great.
Speaker 1: I would love to watch hacks. So this woman.
Speaker 3: Lois is talking to Benson and Stabler and she looks terrified,
Speaker 3: like her like like body language is terror one oh one,
Speaker 3: and she's asking they're asking her like, how did the
Speaker 3: guy leave? It doesn't really say in your report how
Speaker 3: he left. And she's like, great question, I don't remember.
Speaker 3: And then they show her a floor plan and she's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: in my old apartment, you had to go through the
Speaker 3: bathroom to get to the bedroom. I'm like that so
Speaker 3: New York, like just go past a toilet to get
Speaker 3: into bed. And she thinks he must have just gone
Speaker 3: out the front door. And then they give her a
Speaker 3: card and they tell Lois, you did great, right, And
Speaker 3: she's like it didn't help, Like she's so a mess,
Speaker 3: Like she looks like she's about to break at any moment.
Speaker 3: So we cut to the courthouse where Craigan is hering
Speaker 3: the Ada and her name is Kathleen Eastman and she
Speaker 3: is played by Jenna Stern. She has been on not
Speaker 3: only Criminal Intent and Original, but she has been on
Speaker 3: twenty episodes of SVU because she only plays Kathleen Eastman
Speaker 3: in two episodes in season one and then they bring
Speaker 3: her back in season thirteen as trial judge Elana Barth.
Speaker 3: So she's like, you know how you always have your
Speaker 3: girl Lois? Who's Lewis slash Lois. She's the older redhead,
Speaker 3: I would say, and this is like the younger redhead.
Speaker 2: She straightened out hair right, like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and she's like still recording. She was just on
Speaker 3: season twenty three, so she's still in the SVU fam.
Speaker 3: And anyway, she's like headed down the hallway with a
Speaker 3: big ass filebox and some extra files that just won't
Speaker 3: fit in, and Craigan's just like begging her to get
Speaker 3: a judge to issue a warrant for this guy based
Speaker 3: on DNA instead of name, and she's like, oh, the
Speaker 3: Wisconsin maneuver, Like everyone keeps talking about Wisconsin again.
Speaker 1: I refuse to look it up. We don't have precedent.
Speaker 3: And Craigan is like, be the president you want to
Speaker 3: see in the world, Like he is like, let's we
Speaker 3: could start this in New York if you want it,
Speaker 3: and she's like, dude, that's a lot of legal work.
Speaker 3: And he's like, okay, how about if this guy, this
Speaker 3: rapist is your next cab driver, Like he just fully
Speaker 3: scare tactics her, and she's like, you're right, I don't
Speaker 3: want to get raped in a cab, and so she
Speaker 3: takes the paperwork and gives him the like fuck, I
Speaker 3: guess I'll try look so. In the next scene, Munch
Speaker 3: and Jefferies are talking to the third victim, who is
Speaker 3: Jennifer Neil played by an actress named Jenny Bacon, who
Speaker 3: I always remember exactly from this episode.
Speaker 1: She just has this.
Speaker 3: Very calm way of speaking and in my mind she's
Speaker 3: the thumbnail of this episode, whether or not she's the
Speaker 3: thumbnail for real on Hulu.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: Also, these three victims are very like the Three Little
Speaker 2: Pigs and the Big Bad Wolf, Like they each have
Speaker 2: very specific personalities. Yes, like the Brunette is definitely like
Speaker 2: her house is made of straw, she's a mess, and
Speaker 2: that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I can't decide the other two, but I think definitely
Speaker 1: Victoria's one is.
Speaker 3: Made out of bricks because she's like the fucking boss
Speaker 3: bitch who was like threatening people to take them down. Yes,
Speaker 3: but is that really the strongest That's what I'm oh,
Speaker 3: you're right, like, is she actually would because it's a front.
Speaker 3: She's not healed.
Speaker 2: I might be giving something what I'm sorry, Okay, who
Speaker 2: knows of this healed?
Speaker 1: But yeah, we know nothing yet.
Speaker 3: So Jennifer Neil's telling them about her rape and saying
Speaker 3: it was the worst moment of her life, but that
Speaker 3: wasn't all. What happened after that changed my life.
Speaker 1: She says.
Speaker 3: The love and support she received after her attack reaffirmed
Speaker 3: her faith in humanity. She felt suicidal, and the people
Speaker 3: in her life took care of her. She realized she
Speaker 3: was part of a community. And then they tell her
Speaker 3: we're reopening the case because there were two other victims,
Speaker 3: like we've connected them now through DNA, And she's like,
Speaker 3: oh okay, and they're like, can you tell us anything,
Speaker 3: And she's like, I mean, here's what I told the
Speaker 3: other cops. This guy knew my dog's name, he knew
Speaker 3: the restaurant where I sometimes ate breakfast. But she also says,
Speaker 3: I just want this all to end, Like I don't
Speaker 3: think she cares that her Statute of limitations is coming up.
Speaker 1: She doesn't seem like she's not pressed. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: So back to Frantic Kraigan accosting people in courthouses. He
Speaker 3: and the Redhead are chasing down Judge Allan Riddanore, who
Speaker 3: has been on thirteen ups of SVU, seasons one through ten.
Speaker 3: He's got the bald top hair in the big back
Speaker 3: and then the hair in the back and then the
Speaker 3: big bushy mustache and he's like always kind of very
Speaker 3: sarcastic and funny. And I did see that he actually
Speaker 3: passed away in twenty seventeen. So rip to Harvey Atkin,
Speaker 3: the man who plays Judge Alan Riddanore. But in this scene,
Speaker 3: he's like he's like hustling through the courthouse and he's like,
Speaker 3: I want my lunch, you know, Like he's like a
Speaker 3: surly judge looking for food. And they're like selling him
Speaker 3: on this idea of issuing a warrant based on DNA,
Speaker 3: and he brings up Wisconsin again and says, yeah, but
Speaker 3: Wisconsin doesn't have New York's powerful defense bar. And he's like,
Speaker 3: you guys have had five years, why don't you give
Speaker 3: me to the end of the day, to make my decision.
Speaker 1: At least it's not a no. Right. That's good.
Speaker 3: So now Benson and Stabler are back talking to Victoria Kraft,
Speaker 3: the woman we met at the Comstown meeting, and she
Speaker 3: was never impressed with her original detective. She said they
Speaker 3: were neither the best nor the brightest. She hired a
Speaker 3: private investigator and hands them over the files.
Speaker 1: She's like, I wanted someone who answered to me.
Speaker 3: And she said, well, he discovered that the security of
Speaker 3: my building was bad, so I am suing them. And
Speaker 3: then there's this guy on a bike and the neighbor
Speaker 3: saw a kid speed away on a bike. That's a
Speaker 3: bit a tidbit that comes out of this file from
Speaker 3: the private investigator. So now we've instantly, in hours, tracked
Speaker 3: down that neighbor who five years ago saw a guy
Speaker 3: speed away on a bike.
Speaker 1: Very SVU.
Speaker 3: They're talking to him outside. He knows exactly where he
Speaker 3: was five years earlier. He goes, I was outside smoking
Speaker 3: a butt. And I really just love that because when
Speaker 3: I smoked, that's always what we called it.
Speaker 1: We would always be like, do you want to go
Speaker 1: outside and smoke a butt?
Speaker 3: Like we constantly, like my sister and I would be like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, my sister and I would be like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I asked so many bees last night,
Speaker 3: like we would just the way we always talked about
Speaker 3: smoking butts. Yeah, I don't know why that was my vernacular.
Speaker 3: So this man kindred spirits. So he saw a man
Speaker 3: on a bike speeding away from the building the night
Speaker 3: of the attack. And the guy goes, oh, yeah, that bike.
Speaker 3: It's this kind of bike with the reflectorized lime green paint.
Speaker 3: It had the like he knows everything about this bucking bike.
Speaker 3: And they're like, okay, make model everything, and he's like, well,
Speaker 3: I oughta I worked in a bike shop for over
Speaker 3: twenty eight years, so I like that. They happen to
Speaker 3: find a bike expert who caught a biker and he's like,
Speaker 3: here's a weird thing. The guy was wearing a motorcycle
Speaker 3: helmet on a bike and he was wearing a jumpsuit
Speaker 3: and they're like, maybe a uniform and the guy goes,
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's been five years. It's like okay,
Speaker 3: but sir, the bike knowledge, you know everything else. So
Speaker 3: now back in the courtroom, Craigan and the Redhead are
Speaker 3: waiting with baited breath for the judge's verdict, and he
Speaker 3: says that they have a great idea there, it's a
Speaker 3: novel idea and that it but it is not his
Speaker 3: job to rule on novel ideas.
Speaker 1: And so he is rejecting the request for the warrant.
Speaker 3: But he is also passed the paperwork already onto an
Speaker 3: appellet judge because he said, if my decision is reversed,
Speaker 3: I want it to be done soon enough that you
Speaker 3: guys can get some good out of it. So would
Speaker 3: can you believe a bureaucratic position he's actually trying to
Speaker 3: push things through.
Speaker 2: A little bit quicker. Yeah, but why don't you just
Speaker 2: rule on that? Like that's what's annoying.
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm going to rule on this, but hopefully
Speaker 1: it'll get overturned. And it's like, you have the power.
Speaker 3: But I think it's because appellet courts have like a
Speaker 3: different power. Like I think it's like he has to
Speaker 3: just follow the law, and I think that appellate judges
Speaker 3: maybe are able to I mean, all of our lawyer
Speaker 3: people are going to write it and be like, carry,
Speaker 3: you're full of shit. I just got the impression that
Speaker 3: maybe an impellate judge could bend like laws more or
Speaker 3: like constitutions or something. So I have no idea, but
Speaker 3: it is a great question. Why didn't you just say yes?
Speaker 3: Because I know it was like an appellet judge that
Speaker 3: dropped the mask mandate, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 3: it's it always feel maybe I'm just making this up.
Speaker 1: Tell us, please law people.
Speaker 3: So Victoria, here's what it's been denied and runs out
Speaker 3: of the courtroom.
Speaker 1: She's upset.
Speaker 3: Olivia goes after her and she's like, we're gonna appeal.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be okay, and Victoria is like, no, fuck you,
Speaker 3: it's not gonna be okay. I'm pissed you waited five
Speaker 3: years to do this hot, half cocked legal maneuver, she says,
Speaker 3: And then she's like, I endured everything, the rape exam,
Speaker 3: the intimate details of my life that I gave you,
Speaker 3: and I thought I was gonna get some help, but
Speaker 3: today you guys just said to me again, sorry, Vicky,
Speaker 3: you got raped and we're not going to do jack
Speaker 3: about it. And then she says, thank you for making
Speaker 3: this the second worst day of my entire life.
Speaker 1: I think you know what the first was well harsh.
Speaker 3: Svu monologues for a thousand, Alex okay, top.
Speaker 1: Of AC two.
Speaker 3: It's a new day in the workroom. Vicky's case has expired.
Speaker 1: But they're funny, we need to do that.
Speaker 2: I hate saying the precinct back in the squad room.
Speaker 1: It's the workroom. Oh my god, they're back in the workroom.
Speaker 3: Well, it's like, truly, it's sunny day. Everyone's wearing different clothes.
Speaker 3: It's the next day. And so Vicky's case has expired,
Speaker 3: like you know, he crosses it off on the list
Speaker 3: of ones that they can still work on. But there's
Speaker 3: still two days on low Us case and three days
Speaker 3: on Jennifer's case. So this is yeah, like the pressure
Speaker 3: is mounting. Benson points out that Victoria can still testify
Speaker 3: at the trial for one of the other rape victims
Speaker 3: under Molino.
Speaker 1: So I look up Malino, of course, and that is basically.
Speaker 3: Normally, evidence of a prior wrongdoing of crimes is not admissible,
Speaker 3: but in the Malino rule, or the Molino exception it's
Speaker 3: sometimes called, it is allowed if it's more probative than prejudicial,
Speaker 3: to prove, for example, motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, common scheme
Speaker 3: or plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake or accident or
Speaker 3: conduct that is inextricably interwoven with the charged ax.
Speaker 2: Okay, then what is not Molino? It seems like it's everything.
Speaker 3: I think it's like you can't just be like like
Speaker 3: if there's a rape, you can't just be like, well,
Speaker 3: one time in high school, this guy pinched my butt.
Speaker 3: Like that doesn't really like that doesn't really lead like
Speaker 3: to a pattern. This is like more of a specific
Speaker 3: pattern because the guy had the same exact m can
Speaker 3: talk about like crimes that have similar ems, So I
Speaker 3: guess this would count as Malino, and Munch calls Munch
Speaker 3: is pissed. He calls Malono another right wing and run
Speaker 3: around the constitution. And Craigan's like, what the fuck, Munch,
Speaker 3: do you want to get this guy or what? And
Speaker 3: He's like, of course I do. I just think in
Speaker 3: the name of cracking down on crime, we throw civil
Speaker 3: liberties to the winds sometimes.
Speaker 1: And like, I think.
Speaker 3: He's arguing this because he's like, look back in the day,
Speaker 3: I used to be a thorn in the government's side.
Speaker 3: He probably protested Vietnam. He probably did a bunch of
Speaker 3: shit and got arrested for some civil disobedience and He's like,
Speaker 3: I'm glad that there are laws that protect the government
Speaker 3: from just capriciously arresting me, which is very much how
Speaker 3: conspiracy theorists work and just about you. But it's also
Speaker 3: not capricious, like Jeffries goes, there's no capricious arrest here.
Speaker 3: There's DNA, like we know who this person is. Like,
Speaker 3: no one's coming in to just arrest you and saying,
Speaker 3: well that one time you threw a rock at a
Speaker 3: cop back in like sixty nine. You know that's not
Speaker 3: what is happening here. But you know, Munch always has to.
Speaker 3: There's like a writer who's like, I write for Munch,
Speaker 3: and all of my conspiracy theory shit and like kind
Speaker 3: of like very very almost socialist shit gets through for Munch.
Speaker 3: But anyway, not that there's anything wrong with socialism, it's
Speaker 3: just it's very you know Munch's point of view.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he might be like a libertarian vibe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what That's kind of what I was trying
Speaker 3: to say, more a libertarian more fuck the government, get
Speaker 3: off my lawn. Yeah, so don't tread on me flag
Speaker 3: on his pickup truck.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Munch okay, And.
Speaker 3: So Craigan's like all right, let's all get back to work, like,
Speaker 3: as you know, we have five minutes to finish this case.
Speaker 3: Sabler wants to go visit all the old cops who
Speaker 3: worked on these cases, and Munch is like, oh, yeah, great,
Speaker 3: it'll be like seeing the old SVU alumni association.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 3: So they go and they talk to a female detective
Speaker 3: who remembers the case being really frustrating. She was like,
Speaker 3: there were no leads. One of it was one of
Speaker 3: the reasons I transferred. And they're like, oh, because it
Speaker 3: was like frustrating, and she was like no, because Vicki
Speaker 3: Kraft sued me and my partner for dereliction of duty
Speaker 3: and so it like she's like it all got handled.
Speaker 3: Like I like, it sounds like, you know, internal affairs
Speaker 3: or whatever, your reps or whatever handled the suit. Like
Speaker 3: the actual monetary part of the suit was thrown out.
Speaker 3: But I guess she left SPU over that. And so
Speaker 3: she said, you know, we were working at twenty four
Speaker 3: to seven, there were just no suspects, like, but I
Speaker 3: had a clear mental picture of who this guy was.
Speaker 3: And they're like, oh, do tell and she's like, well, listen,
Speaker 3: he gets past two locked doors at a lot of
Speaker 3: these buildings, like you got to get buzzed into those,
Speaker 3: and no tenants remember letting anyone in, although someone must have.
Speaker 3: So this is the kind of guy that like no
Speaker 3: one notices, probably a white guy, underemployed, filled with resentment.
Speaker 3: And then they tell her, hey, by the way, we
Speaker 3: linked this to two other rapes, and she's like, oh man,
Speaker 3: I hate to hear it. And so now Benson and
Speaker 3: Stabler are talking to another former detective from Jennifer Neil's case,
Speaker 3: and he works at like a trucking company now or something.
Speaker 3: He's not a cop anymore, and he remembers the guy
Speaker 3: I knew a lot about the victim, like what kind
Speaker 3: of car she had, where she worked, what she liked
Speaker 3: to buy, when she went shopping, where she shopped, and
Speaker 3: we thought maybe he was like tapping her phone or
Speaker 3: reading her mail, but he's like, you know, it never
Speaker 3: gets sent, makes sense till you get them into interrogation,
Speaker 3: and Live is like, tell me about it. And then
Speaker 3: they tell him like, oh yeah, we're talking to the
Speaker 3: other cops like there was another victim, and he's like,
Speaker 3: oh man, Like he's also kind of bummed to hear
Speaker 3: that there were other victims, and he's like, well, who
Speaker 3: got the other girl's case? And he's talking about Lois's
Speaker 3: case and he goes, oh, Detective Dan Latimer and the
Speaker 3: guy goes, oh hell, Like he goes, this guy is
Speaker 3: just one of those guys that shouldn't be a cop.
Speaker 3: And he's like he thought most rapes were fantasies. And
Speaker 3: he's retired now and he owns a cop bar and
Speaker 3: guys go out there to like talk shit, and you
Speaker 3: guys should go out and see him. And then they
Speaker 3: ask this guy Roy, like what made you bounce from SVU?
Speaker 3: And he gives this like little monologue where he's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, we had this victim. She was raped and
Speaker 3: murdered and that's the usual stuff, but like she had
Speaker 3: marks all over her body like she'd been tore orchard
Speaker 3: for a week.
Speaker 1: And her first name was Jojo.
Speaker 3: And he was like, nobody sees what we see and
Speaker 3: it was just like you could just tell this guy
Speaker 3: was like I've been touched by what I've seen on
Speaker 3: when I worked in SVU. So at the cop bar, uh,
Speaker 3: we are talking to this asshole cop and he's like,
Speaker 3: sex crimes detectives are just garbage collectors, do your two
Speaker 3: years and get out, and Olivia's like, okay, cool. Twenty
Speaker 3: three years later and then this guy is played by
Speaker 3: John Doman, who is booked and blessed.
Speaker 1: Baby.
Speaker 3: He is in so much shit. He was in Trial
Speaker 3: of the Chicago Seven. He's in the new show City
Speaker 3: on a Hill with our buddy Delaney Williams's.
Speaker 1: He was in the Affair Gotham.
Speaker 3: But he's also been on five episodes of SBU, including
Speaker 3: Liza's least favorite episode Shaherazade, where he plays Mike Molinax.
Speaker 3: And I remember, you know that episode with Brian Dennehy. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think Mike Mollinax is like a main he's the
Speaker 3: main guy. Like he's the guy that Paget like thinks
Speaker 3: is her dad or whatever. But like this is you know,
Speaker 3: he's in a that big episode. So I know this guy,
Speaker 3: but I don't know if I just know him from
Speaker 3: SVU because he's in a lot of them. So he
Speaker 3: remembers Lois's case, but Benson's like, well, you barely made
Speaker 3: any notes, and he goes you'll learn like he's you
Speaker 3: hate this guy immediately, and it's like, yeah, do not
Speaker 3: talk down to Benson. You can tell she's already getting
Speaker 3: steamed up. And then Stabler's like does his like, let
Speaker 3: me handle this before Benson flips out on him, and
Speaker 3: he's like, well, what did you think happened? Like give
Speaker 3: us your insight? And Latimer's like, oh, the whole story's
Speaker 3: right there, ons and they're like ons, and he's like,
Speaker 3: one night stand, she was a bookworm. If she even
Speaker 3: caught a guy, she wouldn't know what to do with it.
Speaker 3: He thinks that she just like had sex or regretted it.
Speaker 3: And now she's making it up and Benson is getting
Speaker 3: more and more steamed, and now we the camera backs
Speaker 3: up and we see that this fucking psychopath is drinking
Speaker 3: a tall glass of milk at a bar that he owns.
Speaker 3: I cannot forgive this, No, it's disgusting.
Speaker 2: I actually lived a very sheltered life, and I didn't
Speaker 2: know people drank milk with their dinner until I went
Speaker 2: to college in Iowa and I was like, I need
Speaker 2: to get out of here, like I don't belong here.
Speaker 1: Oh really, what did you drink with dinner? Usually water?
Speaker 2: I don't know, water, juice like bubbly stuff, mineral, I
Speaker 2: don't know I don't, but definitely not.
Speaker 3: Early milk, only milk, and we like had to finish.
Speaker 2: But you're kind of jewy. I don't understand. Did you
Speaker 2: guys not eat meat? Like I just would never want no,
Speaker 2: we ate me.
Speaker 3: It was just like it was just like a thing
Speaker 3: that my parents' parents probably told them, so they were
Speaker 3: just doing to us, like there's no reason behind us.
Speaker 1: It's the got milk at yeah, it's the Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like the.
Speaker 3: Milk mustaches, milk does a body good, all that bullshit,
Speaker 3: Like we just had to drink milk, like Rosy drinks milk.
Speaker 3: Now I offer it to her, but like I'm like,
Speaker 3: if you don't want it, you don't have.
Speaker 1: To have that's ahay, that's a tiny child allowed no no.
Speaker 3: But they say that even after like two or three,
Speaker 3: like the benefits of cow's milk is like their bones
Speaker 3: are doing okay, like you know, they're getting calcium from
Speaker 3: cheese and other things. Like you don't have to like
Speaker 3: be pumping milk down their throats like the way we
Speaker 3: did when we were kids or not you but me.
Speaker 3: So it it's just disgusting to see this man drinking
Speaker 3: a glass of milk like full nighttime glass of milk.
Speaker 1: Well you're gonna love this.
Speaker 2: So, you know, my nephew, the Littlest Meet had nephew
Speaker 2: went to camp and then when they arrive, they write
Speaker 2: a letter and it gets scanned and sent to the
Speaker 2: parents like technology whatever, But they write the letter, and
Speaker 2: all his letters said was I forgot my protein powder.
Speaker 3: Please send it. You're not allowed to bring protein powder
Speaker 3: to my camp. Really, you can't bring anything like extra
Speaker 3: to eat or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder. I mean his grandma runs the camp.
Speaker 1: I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, Okay, he's in the buck with his cousin.
Speaker 3: So anyway, there's absolutely no way in hell that this
Speaker 3: man at his age is handling dairy well. And I'm
Speaker 3: just like really sickened by watching him drink a full
Speaker 3: glass of milk. But that's also a funny add to
Speaker 3: his character because he's so terrible.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm saying at a friend's house a couple nights
Speaker 2: ago and they offered me a white Russian and I
Speaker 2: was like, are you out of your fucking mind?
Speaker 3: I've never had a white Russian for that reason, but
Speaker 3: people say they're good.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just have never felt like drinking milk when I'm
Speaker 3: out to like drink, I don't know, and I'm a
Speaker 3: big big Lebowski fan.
Speaker 1: I just haven't had a white Russian.
Speaker 3: So Stabler breaks the news to this asshole that hey,
Speaker 3: by the way, that rapist was a cereal so she
Speaker 3: didn't make it up and it's real and he did
Speaker 3: it to two other women that we know of. And
Speaker 3: the guy goes, so, I made a mistake. Let me
Speaker 3: buy you a drink. And it's like, what a fucking
Speaker 3: shot of two percent? You fucking psycho. Anyway, Benson storms
Speaker 3: away from the table.
Speaker 1: She hates this.
Speaker 3: Man, as do I, and then we are smash cut
Speaker 3: non just kidding. We cut to the appellate hearing for
Speaker 3: the warrant, and the judge there is like, Okay, I
Speaker 3: see what you're trying to do here, but why if
Speaker 3: we can just do a DNA on this rapist, we
Speaker 3: can just issue a warrant based on this rapist DNA.
Speaker 3: Why can't we just do that on every rape and
Speaker 3: just get the DNA, get a warrant, and then we'll
Speaker 3: find the purp at our leisure And she argues, well,
Speaker 3: this is a unique circumstance, and the judge is like, yes,
Speaker 3: but like where would it end? Would it even stop
Speaker 3: at rapist? Would we just do this to every mugger,
Speaker 3: every turnstile jumper. I think that people like this worry
Speaker 3: about this turning into like what is it, what's like
Speaker 3: nineteen twelve, eighteen twelve or whatever, like a Big Brother
Speaker 3: situation where the government has all of our DNA on
Speaker 3: file and is like us using it to track us
Speaker 3: down for crimes we didn't commit.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: But Craigan stands up and is like, sir, we have
Speaker 3: two days to get this guy.
Speaker 1: And the judge is.
Speaker 3: Like, I feel you, bro, but we cannot circumvent the law.
Speaker 1: And the application is denied.
Speaker 3: And Lois is there, and now she's stop inviting these
Speaker 3: women to these fucking warrant hearings, like just let them
Speaker 3: know later. Like Lois is there and she has a
Speaker 3: fucking full panic attack. She like breaks down, is crying,
Speaker 3: like it just feels like another you know, door slamming
Speaker 3: in her face. And so now they're at Lois's place
Speaker 3: at the top of back three and they're telling She's
Speaker 3: telling them a little bit more about like her situation
Speaker 3: she's opening up to them more than she did, I
Speaker 3: guess in like the first talk they had, and she's like,
Speaker 3: you know, at the time, I was twenty four, the
Speaker 3: biggest thing that had ever happened to me was Brandon
Speaker 3: Lee's death. The son of Bruce Lee, died on the
Speaker 3: set of The Crow, much like in what happened with
Speaker 3: the Alec Baldwin thing. I think it was like a
Speaker 3: gun that was loaded with a I actually think it
Speaker 3: was loaded with a blank, but he was shot with
Speaker 3: a blank that killed him, which I didn't even know
Speaker 3: that blank's I thought blanks were a noise. But anyway,
Speaker 3: this I remember this happening. This happened when I was
Speaker 3: probably like, yeah, eleven or something or ten, and it
Speaker 3: was like a thing everybody like talked about, and it
Speaker 3: was he was very beloved by people, and she and
Speaker 3: her best friend, she said, went to go see The
Speaker 3: Crow over and over and over again. And then when
Speaker 3: she's talking about the assault, she's like, the actual sex
Speaker 3: part wasn't the worst. She'd even thought about what would
Speaker 3: happen if this happened to her, And it was just
Speaker 3: that afterwards, he knew she liked Brandon Lee. He wanted
Speaker 3: to talk about the crow, and she's like, I just
Speaker 3: wanted him to go, and he wanted to talk about
Speaker 3: all these things that were my things, and like he
Speaker 3: like that felt like more of a violation to.
Speaker 1: Her that he just like knew about her.
Speaker 3: And then like after violating her, was like, let's chat
Speaker 3: and he left. At when he left, he said, you're
Speaker 3: a sweetheart, Lollie, and she says, the only person who
Speaker 3: calls me Lolli is my grandmother and like how would
Speaker 3: he know that? And she goes, the last detective told
Speaker 3: me to go to a shrink, like he didn't believe me,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, yes, that's milkman.
Speaker 1: He's the worst.
Speaker 3: And the purp new things about her she had never
Speaker 3: talked about on the phone, so she doesn't think it
Speaker 3: was a phone tap situation. She's like, he knew, like
Speaker 3: where I went rollerblading in the park, Like he knew
Speaker 3: what I was doing in the real world, not on
Speaker 3: a phone. And Olivia is like, well, could he have
Speaker 3: been on a bike and she was like, yes, I
Speaker 3: told the other detective about a green bicycle and he
Speaker 3: said I was going to see my rapist everywhere I went.
Speaker 3: At first, like he tried to tell her that she
Speaker 3: was seeing things, and she said he was always around
Speaker 3: and I just kept seeing him and I knew it
Speaker 3: was him, the man on the green bike. Okay, so
Speaker 3: this is a this is a turn. We're feel like
Speaker 3: we're getting somewhere in a five year case right now.
Speaker 3: Now we're at a PI firm and we're talking to
Speaker 3: the who Vicky hired about the guy on the green bike,
Speaker 3: and he pulls the file because he's like, I don't
Speaker 3: really even remember this, and he thought maybe it was
Speaker 3: this messenger service called Green Machine Bike Messengers, and he's like,
Speaker 3: I didn't tuck to anyone there because they went out
Speaker 3: of business. So now back at the workroom, we're discussing
Speaker 3: how this guy stalks the women, follows them on his
Speaker 3: bike for months, and Stabler goes, yeah, it's textbook power
Speaker 3: reassurance rapist behavior. So the spying is a prelude to
Speaker 3: the rape, like it's like making sure that you have
Speaker 3: power over the situation. And then Jeffries has a lead.
Speaker 3: She found the owner of Green Machine and he now
Speaker 3: owns a laundromat called Clean Machine. Loll to the writer's room,
Speaker 3: so Jeffries and Munch go to pay this guy a
Speaker 3: visit and he's at his laundromat, and he confirms the
Speaker 3: jumpsuits and the bikes, and then they're like, can we
Speaker 3: look at your records? Could you look up a couple
Speaker 3: of addresses for us on your computer. He pulls out
Speaker 3: a full summer camp trunk, like my trunk that I
Speaker 3: have for camp that is filled with old letters and playbills,
Speaker 3: and he's like, here are my files. And he's like, listen,
Speaker 3: I was a better cyclist than I was a businessman,
Speaker 3: Like I kind of forgot to pay my taxes and
Speaker 3: then one of my guys got hurt and I didn't
Speaker 3: have the right insurance. And he gives them the trunk
Speaker 3: and he's like, yeah, take all my records. If the
Speaker 3: irs comes after me again, I can tell them the.
Speaker 1: Cops took them. It's a perfect excuse.
Speaker 3: And so now the gang is back at the house
Speaker 3: and they are diving into these files, but it's going
Speaker 3: to take forever. It's like stacks and stacks and stacks
Speaker 3: of like very thin pieces of paper, and Jeffrey says
Speaker 3: they could just look at the billing records. So immediately
Speaker 3: looking at the billing records for ten seconds, Olivia finds
Speaker 3: four deliveries to Jennifer's workplace in the week before her rape.
Speaker 3: So then they immediately go over to Jennifer's work to
Speaker 3: ask her about it, and she's like, yes, I remember
Speaker 3: the messenger company, And when they ask do you recall
Speaker 3: anyone specific, she says, I'd rather not say, And so
Speaker 3: she's stonewalling them in a weird twist of events, and
Speaker 3: she tells them that in five years a lot can change,
Speaker 3: and she thinks it's wrong to pursue this, let's just
Speaker 3: drop it, and she thinks the statute of limitations might
Speaker 3: be good, like you have your certain amount of time
Speaker 3: to try, but if you fail, you just get to
Speaker 3: move on to other things. And Benson's like, okay, but
Speaker 3: the five years is not over yet, and I want
Speaker 3: to figure this out. And Stabler's like, this guy is
Speaker 3: a danger to others, and she's like, but what if
Speaker 3: he's not. And then Benson has a light bulb moment
Speaker 3: where she's like, you know who this guy is and
Speaker 3: she explains. Jennifer explains that she met him by accident.
Speaker 3: She recognized him, he didn't recognize her. She talked to him,
Speaker 3: which is crazy because if he was wearing a stalking
Speaker 3: over his face. How did you recognize him? But he
Speaker 3: didn't recognize you when he stalked you for four months. Anyway,
Speaker 3: she talked to him about his life, which she says
Speaker 3: was a hard life, and that when she was satisfied
Speaker 3: he had changed, she revealed her identity to him and
Speaker 3: he wanted to turn himself in and she talked him
Speaker 3: out a bit, and Benson is like getting very ragy.
Speaker 3: She's like, why would you do that? And he's like,
Speaker 3: she goes, he's a changed man. We prayed together, and
Speaker 3: then Ben a stabler, goes, you prayed with your rapist
Speaker 3: and he tries to tell her, like, these guys do
Speaker 3: not change. She's still a danger and she says, I
Speaker 3: disagree with you.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: In interrogation with Jennifer, Olivia asks like, oh, what religion
Speaker 3: are you and we find out she's a Quaker and
Speaker 3: a member of the Society of Friends. Oh, they have
Speaker 3: a history of Pacifism. They believe that if you sit silently,
Speaker 3: God can speak to you, and this and that, and
Speaker 3: she believes her attacker reformed, and she says that it
Speaker 3: says love your enemy and the Bible and Olivia is like, well,
Speaker 3: I know a little bit about everything, so I do
Speaker 3: know that the Quakers created the penal system and she says, yes,
Speaker 3: but it's been perverted and the prisons are filled with violence.
Speaker 3: And then Olivia goes, well, if you're serious about prison reform,
Speaker 3: join prison watch. Like she's getting pissed about all the
Speaker 3: different ways that angles of this woman's taking and Olivia
Speaker 3: is arguing with her that it's great you came to
Speaker 3: peace with this, but like, what about the other victims,
Speaker 3: And she says, I'm not turning him in to satisfy
Speaker 3: some abstract concept of justice, and Olivia's like, it's not abstract, honey,
Speaker 3: it's very concrete. This guy's stalked, riped, and maced these women,
Speaker 3: and they deserve their justice, you know.
Speaker 1: So then they bring in.
Speaker 3: The other two victims to talk to Jennifer and Vicky
Speaker 3: is like, which I wonder if they would do in
Speaker 3: real life, only because if they talk to each other,
Speaker 3: it's like remember the Nicole Sullivan episode where she gets
Speaker 3: raped on the subway, and they like, they have all
Speaker 3: the women together in the same room, and that kind
Speaker 3: of negates it all because that gives them kind of
Speaker 3: a chance to like compare stories and get their stories
Speaker 3: straight together.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just wonder if this would happen in real life anyway.
Speaker 3: Vicky's like, give me the name, and she thinks. Jennifer
Speaker 3: is like, she's like, you just want them all for
Speaker 3: yourself because you're holding the power of life and death
Speaker 3: over him. You can dime him out whenever you want,
Speaker 3: and that that's like why you're doing this, and you know,
Speaker 3: Jennifer's like, that's not why, and she's like, trust me,
Speaker 3: finding the name won't change anything. And that part like
Speaker 3: annoys me because it's like you don't know what will
Speaker 3: it will change for someone else, Like it didn't change
Speaker 3: it for you, but that doesn't mean it won't change
Speaker 3: it for someone else. So Vicky goes into full attack
Speaker 3: mode and is like, uh, I know your job and
Speaker 3: my company provides insurance for them, and I will take
Speaker 3: all of the health insurance away from your company if
Speaker 3: you do not tell me this man's name, Like I
Speaker 3: will tell your job that you're harboring a fugitive and
Speaker 3: that you're they're employing a hater of women or whatever.
Speaker 1: And Vicky's just going all in.
Speaker 3: She is a savage and then Lois just has a
Speaker 3: full meltdown, screaming at Jennifer, being.
Speaker 4: Like, do you know what it's like to never leave
Speaker 4: in the house.
Speaker 3: I'm like, she's so paranoid and this man's clearly like
Speaker 3: ruined her sense of safety. And she's like, I want
Speaker 3: him to pay tell me his name, you stupid bitch.
Speaker 3: One of the best lines, and you know, obviously we
Speaker 3: love that line. So then Jennifer says to Lois, I
Speaker 3: hope you find peace, and she goes, shut up, you.
Speaker 1: Freak like cold.
Speaker 3: I I mean, I feel for Lois so badly, Like
Speaker 3: I would kill this woman. Like she's so good at
Speaker 3: this part because she's so even keeled and zen, but
Speaker 3: that kind of temperament when I'm mad makes me crazy.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 2: But it's also the vibe it's like anti choice people
Speaker 2: and stuff where it's like, well, this is what.
Speaker 1: Works for me, so it must work for all.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I'm able to see outside of yourself in
Speaker 2: any way, and yeah, I hate her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's like I'm like, you should be able to
Speaker 3: like maybe tell this guy. Hey, we're gonna like they're
Speaker 3: investigating this. Other victims are gonna have to turn you in,
Speaker 3: Like I'll pray for you in jail. I'll visit you
Speaker 3: in jail, Like you can do your own bullshit that
Speaker 3: you want to do to like maintain your your forgiveness
Speaker 3: of this man. But that's your You can't make these
Speaker 3: decisions for other people. So in Cragan's office, we have
Speaker 3: fifteen hours. So they're going to ask a judge for
Speaker 3: a material witness order for Jennifer and compel her legally
Speaker 3: to talk. And Benson has this look on her face like, oh,
Speaker 3: that is not morally sound, and Stabler's like, yeah, we've
Speaker 3: never forced a rape victim to testify, and you know,
Speaker 3: Craigan does his usual you want this guy to walk like,
Speaker 3: Craigan gets really chaotic sometimes when he's trying to get
Speaker 3: a case closed. So in court they ask Jennifer to
Speaker 3: approach the bench and she refuses to tell the judge,
Speaker 3: even under threat of civil jail, who the identity of
Speaker 3: this man is. And she gets tempt of court and
Speaker 3: gets put into a woman's house of detention and Olivia
Speaker 3: just goes up to her like last ditch and goes,
Speaker 3: you can speak at his trial. You don't have to
Speaker 3: do this, and she's like, you know what, like how
Speaker 3: do you know what your values are?
Speaker 1: And until you put them to the test.
Speaker 3: I think we're both doing what we think is right,
Speaker 3: but we just disagree about what that is. And then
Speaker 3: Craigan asks Olivia, like are you okay? And she goes, well,
Speaker 3: we just sent a rape victim to lock up, so
Speaker 3: I'm not great. And now in the top of Act four,
Speaker 3: Commissioner Morris, the nasally white man from the beginning at
Speaker 3: the comstat meeting, makes a reappearance. He waltz into Daddi
Speaker 3: Craigan's office and he's like, we got to talk, and
Speaker 3: he's like he's just not psyched about the rape victim
Speaker 3: being sent to lock up. And he's like, I have
Speaker 3: to file a letter of complaint just for the record.
Speaker 3: And he's like, okay, well, who's putting you up to this?
Speaker 3: Victims rights groups? The press, and he's like, and the
Speaker 3: mayor and the police commissioner, and I'm like, I thought
Speaker 3: you were the police commissioner, but whatever. I find it
Speaker 3: hard to believe that the press would even cover this,
Speaker 3: Like the New York Post would be like dumb slut
Speaker 3: won't give up rapists, like for the headline, Like I
Speaker 3: just don't even know if this would get covered in
Speaker 3: a way where they would feel the pressure at one PP,
Speaker 3: like no one riches involved, maybe Victoria is rich anyway, Basically,
Speaker 3: the guy's being political and Craigin's like, I don't have
Speaker 3: time for this, and he's just like, you just want
Speaker 3: to cover your ass in case we don't bust this guy,
Speaker 3: which may happen, and we're running out of time. So
Speaker 3: Craigan's like, you only brought up the fact that these
Speaker 3: rapes were linked for your political reasons, and you brought
Speaker 3: it up at comstat to like kind of humiliate me
Speaker 3: and like make it political, and he's like, no, it
Speaker 3: was in the circular and Craigan's like, yeah, but you
Speaker 3: could have actually told me I lost three days instead
Speaker 3: of just waiting for me to like thumb through my
Speaker 3: circular or whatever it is. And he's like, you're dangerously
Speaker 3: close to insubordination, captain, and then he goes, well, then
Speaker 3: write me up or get the fuck out of here,
Speaker 3: because I got work to do until you take this
Speaker 3: job away from me, and I only have till midnight.
Speaker 1: So yeah, tick tick tick, we do not have much
Speaker 1: time left.
Speaker 3: Benson and Stabler are talking to a guy at the
Speaker 3: Quaker meetinghouse. And this man is like a part time
Speaker 3: in voluntary not like priests, but like maybe some kind
Speaker 3: of spiritual leader at the Quaker house who listens to,
Speaker 3: you know what, other people when people need counseling. But
Speaker 3: he's also a psychologist and he tries he tried to
Speaker 3: convince Jennifer to send this guy to jail. He's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: Quakers are all over the justice system. They're judges, they're lawyers,
Speaker 3: they're on juries. Like it's not a part of our
Speaker 3: religion that she can't send this guy to jail. And
Speaker 3: then they go, okay, well, can you give us a
Speaker 3: list of your members? And he's like that I won't do,
Speaker 3: like we have a history of civil disobedience, slavery, Vietnam,
Speaker 3: like all things that the Quakers have protested, and like
Speaker 3: we're not going to like just give you our list
Speaker 3: of people so that you can later, I don't know, prosecute.
Speaker 3: So Olivia says, we'll get a warrant, and he goes, okay,
Speaker 3: go ahead and get your warm but when you come back,
Speaker 3: I will not be alone.
Speaker 1: So they go and get it.
Speaker 3: They come back and Olivia's like about to knock on
Speaker 3: the door and she's like, I feel very uncomfortable about this.
Speaker 3: And so they go into the meetinghouse and all these
Speaker 3: members are sitting there and they're just sitting in silence.
Speaker 3: And then the man that we just spoke to peacefully
Speaker 3: like asks them to leave or to sit and pray
Speaker 3: with them, and they're like, we have to follow the law,
Speaker 3: and so they go into the back office. There's more
Speaker 3: members sitting in silence, and then Olivia has to like
Speaker 3: gently wrestle a rolodex from an old Quaker lady and
Speaker 3: I mean she doesn't really fight because she is a Quaker,
Speaker 3: but it's like a moment where she kind of pulls
Speaker 3: the rolodex from her. So now they're back at the precinct.
Speaker 3: They've narrowed down the list of bike messengers who were
Speaker 3: working at that time to thirty six people, and they're
Speaker 3: cross referencing it with the rolodex and they've got six hours,
Speaker 3: so they all like take different parts of the alphabet
Speaker 3: and they start getting down to comparing. Munch pretty quickly
Speaker 3: finds this guy whose name is Harvey Dennis. He was
Speaker 3: arrested in nineteen ninety five for burglary, so clearly he
Speaker 3: was arrested trying to commit another rape, and he served
Speaker 3: fifteen months in prison, and while he was in prison,
Speaker 3: he was hospitalized for being raped in prison. So they
Speaker 3: do find his address and they head over there. So
Speaker 3: when they're walking up to this like motel, Olivia's like,
Speaker 3: I walk past this place every day.
Speaker 1: I'm a way to the gym.
Speaker 3: This guy was under our noses. So it's like a
Speaker 3: CD kind of hotel kind of has like, you know,
Speaker 3: the chain link grate in front between the concierge and
Speaker 3: the customer, and they say, we're looking for Harvey Dennis.
Speaker 3: And the guy at the front desk goes, I'm right here,
Speaker 3: and they tell him you're under arrest. Stand up, put
Speaker 3: your hands behind your back, but we can't. We can't
Speaker 3: see his hands right away, and so they pull out
Speaker 3: their guns and they're like hands up, hands up, and
Speaker 3: he's like, wait, don't shoot, puts his hands up and
Speaker 3: he goes, I'm gonna buzz you in. So he buzzes
Speaker 3: them in to back behind the counter and that's when
Speaker 3: we discover he's in a wheelchair.
Speaker 1: Twist done done.
Speaker 3: So they wheel him out to the car and he
Speaker 3: tells them, you know whatever, just throw me in the car,
Speaker 3: like I can't feel anything from the ribcage down.
Speaker 1: It doesn't hurt.
Speaker 3: And so they ask him what happened and he's like, oh,
Speaker 3: a bike. I was on my bike and a truck
Speaker 3: side mirror smashed my spine. So he's paraplegic. And Stabler
Speaker 3: reads him his rights as he gingerly like places him
Speaker 3: in the car.
Speaker 1: And that's dick wolf baby.
Speaker 3: I wonder if his injury the injury that shut down
Speaker 3: Green Machine Bike messengers.
Speaker 1: Oh with the insurance, Wow, look at you.
Speaker 3: Because that's like, you know, that's he doesn't look like
Speaker 3: he got a great lawsuit or anything out of it,
Speaker 3: you know, so like or insurance cover it now?
Speaker 2: And I understand where you know, Jenny Bacon's coming from
Speaker 2: of like, well, he's he's not going to do this again,
Speaker 2: but also fuck that guy he did it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that her thing is like, yeah, he's already
Speaker 3: been brutalized in prison, he's unable to hurt anyone again,
Speaker 3: and he's prison in a wheelchair.
Speaker 1: Sounds like a lot more challenging, you know.
Speaker 3: But my thing is this is I don't know, there's
Speaker 3: no way to excuse his behavior at all, but it's like,
Speaker 3: on top of like the physical attack he did, he
Speaker 3: stuck these women for months, like he thought about this, Like,
Speaker 3: this isn't a person that just was like, oh I
Speaker 3: got drunk and I thought this person wanted it or whatever.
Speaker 3: Not that that person is excusable at all, but this
Speaker 3: is a person who like very much premeditated these tacks
Speaker 3: for months at a time. Like I find it hard
Speaker 3: to believe you can kind of reform from that, to
Speaker 3: be honest.
Speaker 2: And the internet was like chill back then. But if
Speaker 2: he was, who knows what he could have done with
Speaker 2: the internet. If that's like, yeah, being of stalking and doing.
Speaker 1: He would have only like escalated this man.
Speaker 3: Yeah, three in a week, and those are all people
Speaker 3: that he'd been stalking for months. It's like he orchestrated
Speaker 3: it all to happen in a week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, put him to jail, all right. Annals is upset
Speaker 2: by this. We have to move on to the commercials.
Speaker 2: We'll be back with some crimes. So this is based
Speaker 2: on two crimes. But the more I think about it,
Speaker 2: who knows if the second one even makes sense. But
Speaker 2: we will start and we'll see what happens. So we
Speaker 2: have the Kathleen Ham rape case. And so Kathleen moved
Speaker 2: to New York, New York City in June twenty sixth,
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, and she was dreaming of a big
Speaker 2: career in publishing and she felt like her whole life
Speaker 2: was ahead of her. And then a man entered her
Speaker 2: apartment and she gives an account of the attack to
Speaker 2: an interview for NBC News and it's with Anne Curry.
Speaker 1: Who did you she just did the interview with.
Speaker 2: Herd right, No, that was Savannah Savannah Guthrie. But you
Speaker 2: know Anne Anne Corey had did like a famous Angelina
Speaker 2: Joli interview, like she's a very nice woman.
Speaker 1: I worked with her at the Olympics for a little Wait.
Speaker 2: But did you read that Savannah Guthrie's husband did like
Speaker 2: pr for Johnny Depp? No, like he was he was
Speaker 2: working with Johnny during all of this, So I don't understand.
Speaker 1: How did she not like recuse herself?
Speaker 2: Then, I don't know, And how comes she would agree
Speaker 2: to do an interview with someone that was working with
Speaker 2: I mean, I have no fucking.
Speaker 1: Idea unless she didn't know, but like Savannah should have
Speaker 1: been like, but how do I know?
Speaker 3: I know you're a Today's Show correspondent, but you're still
Speaker 3: technically a journalist, and I feel like ethics and journalism
Speaker 3: not to be Gamergate, Like you should probably say my
Speaker 3: husband works with the opposing person on this lawsuit.
Speaker 1: I should not interview you. Also, I was there was
Speaker 1: a big s view. Could I have done it? Well?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was an SVW marathon yesterday at the hotel
Speaker 2: and I rewatched Intimidation game.
Speaker 1: She's good. Mousam is such a good actress. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: she's great. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Anyways, back to this, you just brought up gamer Gate.
Speaker 3: So obviously, so yeah, sorry, I'd love to talk about
Speaker 3: Gamergate like every day if I can go on.
Speaker 1: Okay, So back to Kathleen.
Speaker 2: So what she is telling this interview with Ann Curry
Speaker 2: is she remembers seeing a light flickering on the fire
Speaker 2: escape outside of her window, and then she saw a
Speaker 2: hand attached to the light, and then she saw sneakers
Speaker 2: and then in a flash, she was inside the apartment.
Speaker 2: There was a huge struggle and he had a knife
Speaker 2: and then he threw a sheet over her head and
Speaker 2: she screamed, but then obviously he put the knife to
Speaker 2: her throat.
Speaker 1: And was like I'll fucking kill you. Stop it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she was raped, so he raped her
Speaker 2: and a neighbor heard her screaming and did not get
Speaker 2: GENEVIZI in this up and did call nine one.
Speaker 1: One, So that is great. Wait, well you say it.
Speaker 3: Again, because I think you just said Genevisian, which is
Speaker 3: our old agent.
Speaker 2: I know, but I thought it was like, but how
Speaker 2: do I make it as a thing like.
Speaker 1: A verb, like yeah, kitty Geneviz? Yeah, how I said it?
Speaker 1: Go fuck it? Well you said Genevisian, go fuck yourself.
Speaker 1: I did it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So when the cops arrived, the attacker was still inside
Speaker 2: and they were able to corner him. But after a
Speaker 2: chase around the neighborhood, they they did arrest his ass
Speaker 2: so they cornered him. He escaped, there was a chase,
Speaker 2: they did arrest him. The two officers that arrested him
Speaker 2: are Rose Snipes and Abe Mengola, and they said it
Speaker 2: felt like a Christmas present to have him there and
Speaker 2: they knew that they had him and they were just
Speaker 2: like kind of excited. I don't know if that's like
Speaker 2: the I don't know if they should call like getting
Speaker 2: a rapist a Christmas present, but the fact that it
Speaker 2: was like a done deal, you know, like they saw
Speaker 2: him in there and they got him. Meanwhile, she was
Speaker 2: sent to the hospital and a terrible, terrible experience. Not surprising,
Speaker 2: she said, nobody gave her any sympathy, not even a
Speaker 2: glass of water, And because she reacts very controlled in
Speaker 2: a crisis and wasn't crying, the hospital did not believe
Speaker 2: that she was raped. And even though all of her
Speaker 2: injuries were consistent with rape, and she heard the examiners go, oh,
Speaker 2: she was too calm, she wasn't raped, So yeah, they legit,
Speaker 2: were like, there's no sperms, so you're lying. There was
Speaker 2: no rape kid at this time, and there was no
Speaker 2: rape training and so it was a nightmare.
Speaker 1: And then the case was also fucked. On top of this.
Speaker 2: Terrible experience, the cops who thought that the case was
Speaker 2: going to be a slam dunk since they both could
Speaker 2: id the suspect, did not happen.
Speaker 1: The man went by the name Clarence Williams.
Speaker 2: And the huge problem, I guess even though he was
Speaker 2: inside Kathleen Ham never saw his face. I just I
Speaker 2: don't get this at all. But this was the seventies
Speaker 2: and the seventies. You're gonna hear something of a police
Speaker 2: captain said, and it's most fucked up ship. So reporter
Speaker 2: Julia pressed In, who covered the case for the New
Speaker 2: York Times, said there was a presumption and still kind
Speaker 2: of there is, but that a woman wouldn't be raped
Speaker 2: if she wasn't in some fashion asking for it. So
Speaker 2: the trials started in nineteen seventy four, and it was
Speaker 2: hard because they couldn't win the case on just the
Speaker 2: victim's word. The underwork did not have sperm, and the
Speaker 2: prosecution focused.
Speaker 3: Were his people trying to just say that he just
Speaker 3: broke in and it was like a robbery, like because
Speaker 3: it's apartment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the prosecution focused on the cops ID, which
Speaker 2: should be enough, I feel, But the defense went after Kathleen.
Speaker 2: So it's the classic like Buchanan vibes of like are
Speaker 2: you They asked her on the stand if she was
Speaker 2: a virgin, like it's like, and then they went at
Speaker 2: her for two days and they tried to portray her
Speaker 2: as a prostitute and that she's like a working girl
Speaker 2: that is like a slut and not a virgin and
Speaker 2: makes money having sex and like they just like spun
Speaker 2: it as like a character assassination vibe, and.
Speaker 1: They asked were her legs broken?
Speaker 2: Because she didn't run away, so and then they kept
Speaker 2: like yelling, like when she tried to talk, they just
Speaker 2: kept yelling like yes or no.
Speaker 1: These are yes and no questions.
Speaker 3: Oh well, he does that all the time, Buchanan or
Speaker 3: some of those lawyers do that.
Speaker 2: Oh, Buchanan, for sure. This is a Buchanan mosment, simple yes.
Speaker 1: Or no, will sifat you know? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So yeah, like to ask if you're a virgin and
Speaker 2: then ask if your legs are broken. It's like the
Speaker 2: most fucked up shit. And this is obviously before like
Speaker 2: all the language and all the stuff that we have.
Speaker 2: But also this isn't even that long ago. This is
Speaker 2: the seventies. And it was an eight day trial, two
Speaker 2: days of deliberations, and it ended in a hung journey.
Speaker 1: So that was that.
Speaker 2: She said to NBC News that she was shattered and
Speaker 2: she became very depressed. And while the fuck had Williams
Speaker 2: was out on bail awaiting trial. He was accused of
Speaker 2: sexually assaulting and shooting another woman.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: In a plea bargain, he plied guilty in the case
Speaker 2: and also to Kathleen's rape. Then that other case got overturned,
Speaker 2: so both cases had to be retried.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, sorry, I'm about to kill somebody. I
Speaker 3: know it's going on.
Speaker 2: I know this is like very fucked up. And she
Speaker 2: bounced to California. She's like, I don't want to take
Speaker 2: the stand again. I'm not dealing with this. Fuck New York,
Speaker 2: fuck everything. And she bounced. She's like, I'm not doing
Speaker 2: a trial again.
Speaker 3: I can see why you would not trust New York
Speaker 3: State to keep you safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So she ran away, and then this fucker escaped,
Speaker 2: like ran away and vanished so no one could find him.
Speaker 2: So for decades Kathleen had all of this worry and guilt,
Speaker 2: and she thought that like it was her fault that
Speaker 2: she unleashed a monster and that he was out there
Speaker 2: and hurting other women, and that she could have tried
Speaker 2: to meet him in court again.
Speaker 1: So for decades she.
Speaker 2: Was just like fuck, like I could have put this
Speaker 2: guy away and I didn't, and now who knows what
Speaker 2: he's doing. So not only is she living in fear,
Speaker 2: like living through this trauma, now all of this guilt
Speaker 2: of like what could she have done? And I bet
Speaker 2: all those lawyers are sleeping very well at night, not
Speaker 2: even thinking about this again, So she went to law
Speaker 2: school and became a lawyer, and so that's like good news.
Speaker 2: And then it said like she had a lot of
Speaker 2: trouble dating and couldn't fucking sleep. But yeah, so she
Speaker 2: became a full insomniac and she would sit at the
Speaker 2: window with a butcher knife or lay by the door,
Speaker 2: and that's how she was able to kind of sleep,
Speaker 2: like she just yeah, her life was ruined. And then
Speaker 2: thirty two years later, she got a call from her
Speaker 2: former neighbor and the New York DA's office got in
Speaker 2: contact with her. So the DA's office got in contact
Speaker 2: with the former neighbor because they were looking for Kathleen.
Speaker 2: Because this fuck ass Clarence Williams changed his name to
Speaker 2: Fletcher Warrow and was trying to buy a gun in
Speaker 2: Atlanta and his name popped up on a background check
Speaker 2: and the warrant fell on him and he was brought
Speaker 2: back to New York.
Speaker 1: Dumb ass. Yeah, but just had to have a gun,
Speaker 1: didn't y.
Speaker 2: Yes, So this is why we need background checks for
Speaker 2: fucking guns. Yeah, so this rapist couldn't get a gun,
Speaker 2: Like have laws gone backwards?
Speaker 1: Is that's what's happened? Like is that? Like yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: So she.
Speaker 2: Was pissed to get the call and was shocked. She gasped,
Speaker 2: and she just wasn't ready to hear about this ever again.
Speaker 2: So they called her after Nancy gave her a heads up.
Speaker 1: So Nancy's the neighbors.
Speaker 2: So they like asked Nancy, like, can you just please
Speaker 2: talk to this woman? And so Nancy and Kathleen chatted.
Speaker 2: They asked if she was willing to testify, and this
Speaker 2: time she said yes. They had her testimony, but even bigger.
Speaker 2: They now had DNA technology and science advanced. So they
Speaker 2: tested the soiled underwear from decades before and it had matched.
Speaker 2: So whatever, like the hospital and all those people said
Speaker 2: that there wasn't DNA and the underwear were fucking idiots,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, like maybe there was like touch
Speaker 2: DNA on it, but he like he may have used
Speaker 2: a condom or something, so there wasn't semen, but like
Speaker 2: there was touch DNA on the underwear, which proves like
Speaker 2: a sexual assault.
Speaker 1: People use condom in the seventies, isn't that the thing?
Speaker 3: Oh geez, I don't know but then why wasn't there
Speaker 3: any material genetic material?
Speaker 2: Girl, I don't know. If a scientist wants to hit
Speaker 2: us up, that would be great. Yeah, so it was
Speaker 2: a match. It was an exact match to Fletcher worl
Speaker 2: Aka Clarence, and then they found it matched two rapes
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety three in New Jersey. So it's like
Speaker 2: her biggest fear came true, you know, like he was
Speaker 2: perpetrating more crimes. Then his DNA popped up in nine
Speaker 2: cases from Silver Spring, Maryland, where he was known as
Speaker 2: the Silver Spring Rapist, which was part of a twenty
Speaker 2: one rape pattern. Oh my god, So this motherfucker had
Speaker 2: like a nickname like that's how like not like prevalent
Speaker 2: his crime, Like he just committed so many crimes Like yeah,
Speaker 2: fucking nickname and no one.
Speaker 1: Could have taken I just saw, my god.
Speaker 2: So all the DNA match to at least twenty three
Speaker 2: other rapes in Maryland and Jersey over the past thirty years.
Speaker 2: I think that judge, the defense, the fucking hospital workers
Speaker 2: all should be jailed.
Speaker 1: No mistakes made. Fuck those motherfuckers.
Speaker 3: The cops found this guy in her fucking house. I
Speaker 3: don't understand.
Speaker 1: I don't either.
Speaker 2: That's like what shocks me because it is like if
Speaker 2: the cops saw him chased him out, Like I don't understand.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's how badly.
Speaker 3: That's how badly, Like they need to make women look
Speaker 3: like there's like no such thing as rape, like all
Speaker 3: women kind of want it in a way, you know.
Speaker 3: That's I think that's like what is happening, just like
Speaker 3: garbage misogyny.
Speaker 2: And so then before the trial, Kathleen finally decided to
Speaker 2: come forward and go public with her story and reveal
Speaker 2: her identity.
Speaker 1: I think she was like a Jane Doe until then.
Speaker 2: She said she had nothing to be ashamed of, Like
Speaker 2: if she was burglarized, you would like you would use
Speaker 2: her names.
Speaker 1: So why the stigma?
Speaker 2: And this time the jury was made up of seven
Speaker 2: women and five men, and it only took two hours
Speaker 2: to find him guilty of first degree rape and robbery.
Speaker 2: And the robbery was he took Ford from her apartment.
Speaker 2: But glad we were able to add it on the
Speaker 2: retra years maybe And this brings up obviously with the
Speaker 2: episode talked about issues with statue of limitations. So her
Speaker 2: case was indicted when it happened, and they were able
Speaker 2: to use the underwear. But if it was just an
Speaker 2: old case, it would have been too old. So if
Speaker 2: this was just underwear laying around or whatever, like it
Speaker 2: passed the statue of limitations, then they could have never
Speaker 2: tried it. But since he was indicted and there was
Speaker 2: a trial, they were able to use the evidence from
Speaker 2: that trial. God because it was already like brought to court.
Speaker 2: So this case, backed by the lobbying muscle of the
Speaker 2: Manhattan DIA's Office and the National Organization for Women, helped
Speaker 2: persuade New York State to drop its five year statue
Speaker 2: of limitations for first degree rape. So back in the day,
Speaker 2: unless charges of rape were brought within five years, there
Speaker 2: could be no prosecution. And after two thousand and six,
Speaker 2: there'll be no limit in New York State for apprehending, arresting,
Speaker 2: or prosecuting rape in the first degree.
Speaker 1: Obviously, this is okay.
Speaker 3: So I guess what I was talking about was the
Speaker 3: second and third degree?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No. I was like panicking as
Speaker 2: you were reading. I was like, what the fuck is happening?
Speaker 2: So everything is correct. I didn't even realize that though,
Speaker 2: like when I looked it up. So two thousand and
Speaker 2: six is when they stopped first degree, got it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And then if you want to learn more about statute
Speaker 2: of limitations, there's a state by state guide on rain
Speaker 2: dot org. And you're all smart and capable listeners, so
Speaker 2: you can look all that information up. And it's a nightmare.
Speaker 2: And I don't understand why you would have time limits
Speaker 2: on this crime. And then Kathleen Ham actually died at
Speaker 2: seventy three years old on January twentieth of this year
Speaker 2: and her home in Santa Monica.
Speaker 3: Well, I hope she died like at least feeling like
Speaker 3: she got justice eventually.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Fuck, that's fucking horrific.
Speaker 3: But I mean, I mean, the thing is too is
Speaker 3: like they had this guy on like twenty three rapes
Speaker 3: across New Jersey and Maryland. And those are women that
Speaker 3: went and reported, you know what I mean, Like I
Speaker 3: bet you it's so many more didn't even think.
Speaker 2: About it that yeah, and that they couldn't find this
Speaker 2: guy and.
Speaker 3: All these people, and I just it was like I'm
Speaker 3: sure it was like the seventies.
Speaker 1: Women were scared.
Speaker 3: They were like I'm not even going to the cops,
Speaker 3: Like I'll just move, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 3: I bet there's so many more victims, like true true psychopath.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know.
Speaker 2: So the next case is about Paul Callo and he's
Speaker 2: in quotes the balcony Rapist. So Paul is a serial
Speaker 2: rapist and this happened in Toronto in the mid eighties.
Speaker 2: He would break into women's homes by climbing onto second
Speaker 2: or third story balconies. He was convicted of raping five
Speaker 2: women at knife point and spent twenty years in jail.
Speaker 2: So that's I guess good news. But as of twenty seventeen,
Speaker 2: this is the article said that Canada doesn't have a
Speaker 2: public sex offender registry, so there are no ways to
Speaker 2: provide like where sex offenders live. And the first article
Speaker 2: I found was a community just like pissed he.
Speaker 1: Was going to be living with them.
Speaker 2: I kept trying to find more articles from the eighties
Speaker 2: and it was all people being like, get him the
Speaker 2: fuck out of my community, like so many Google pages
Speaker 2: of just people being like how dare he live? And
Speaker 2: so this just brings up a lot of interesting like
Speaker 2: legal shit. Again, I don't know how this attaches to
Speaker 2: the case, but whatever the WICKI said. So, so he's
Speaker 2: a little too casual, but I guess he's right, But
Speaker 2: he's quoted saying there's nothing I can do at this point.
Speaker 2: All I can do is see to it that I
Speaker 2: don't do anything like that again. And it's like, I
Speaker 2: guess that makes sense, but I don't know, Like why
Speaker 2: would people feel safe with you? But that was his
Speaker 2: response to communities not wanting to live around him, But
Speaker 2: the residents are like, we just wanted a heads up,
Speaker 2: Like why can't we get a heads up? And this
Speaker 2: guy gives off like big manipulator, ed kemper vibes, Like
Speaker 2: that's what I get from him, like lying to parole,
Speaker 2: giving them what they want to hear to like think
Speaker 2: that you've rehabilitated, but you really haven't. So those are
Speaker 2: the vibes that I get from him. Or he's just
Speaker 2: really super delusional. I'm not sure, but the parole board
Speaker 2: consistently denied mister Callo early release and said that he
Speaker 2: had made apps no progress towards rehabilitation. He was released
Speaker 2: with seventeen conditions, so there was like curfew. He can't
Speaker 2: have drugs, alcohol, weapons, no rope, tape, wire, gloves or pliers,
Speaker 2: so specific, like you can never have gloves again, but yeah,
Speaker 2: so this is just like interesting, Oh, I guess maybe
Speaker 2: this connects the episode of like punishment and what's fair
Speaker 2: and what's not where it's like, he did serve twenty
Speaker 2: years in jail. Yeah, so he did his time. But
Speaker 2: I also understand people not wanting to be around the
Speaker 2: serial rapist. So it's like, what do you do?
Speaker 1: Like, do you it's just tough? And yeah, it's just tough.
Speaker 2: And we've talked about this all the time and this
Speaker 2: happened in some cases we covered in the UK, but
Speaker 2: this guy actually raped someone in nineteen eighty two and
Speaker 2: served jail time and did not give a shit, Like
Speaker 2: he was like, I'm just gonna do my time and
Speaker 2: get out and go back at it, like he did
Speaker 2: not care. And they released him and he got married
Speaker 2: and what he started doing was just breaking into apartments
Speaker 2: and robbing, and then he started noticing a pattern if
Speaker 2: there wasn't men's clothes, and then he knew the women
Speaker 2: lived alone. So he was this robber who put the
Speaker 2: connection together and then was like, oh, I'm gonna remember
Speaker 2: where all these women live alone. And I feel like
Speaker 2: I don't want to give validity to his excuses of
Speaker 2: why he did the crimes, but he's like boo, who,
Speaker 2: I'm an alcoholic and my wife was the breadwinner and
Speaker 2: I'm sad. So that's he's like an in cell in
Speaker 2: sells throughout time. My wife makes more money and I
Speaker 2: get to live off her money, and I'm gonna rape
Speaker 2: people instead. So when he was arrested and went away
Speaker 2: for twenty years, he did interviews and said like he
Speaker 2: wanted to make strides towards rehabilitation, and he brags about
Speaker 2: all these like prison programs he completed, like anger management.
Speaker 2: He then wanted to like sue the department for slander,
Speaker 2: that he's not that bad of a guy.
Speaker 1: He's just the sick o.
Speaker 2: So he rape someone, serves his time, gets out, starts robbing,
Speaker 2: starts serial raping, goes to jail, and then wants to
Speaker 2: sue the department for slander because he's not that bad.
Speaker 3: I bet you if you talk to this guy, he
Speaker 3: would be like a like a malignant narcissist, psychopath, like
Speaker 3: or sociopath. I mean, I know there's differences in the designations,
Speaker 3: but like the delusion of grandeur, you know, like I'm
Speaker 3: not that bad. They need to take back what they
Speaker 3: said about me. You know, it's like it's not something
Speaker 3: that makes any sense.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then other big and unique issues with this case
Speaker 2: is the fifth victim felt like the police used her
Speaker 2: as bait, that they should have communicated a warning so
Speaker 2: people could have protected themselves, but they wanted to catch him. So.
Speaker 2: Victim five is known as Jane Doe, and in nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty six, she said that the police knew there was
Speaker 2: a serial rapist in the neighborhood. They knew he was
Speaker 2: operating in a very small six block radius, that he
Speaker 2: was attacking women who lived alone in second or third
Speaker 2: floor balcony apartments and who had long brown hair. They
Speaker 2: knew the attacks were cyclical, They knew the day he
Speaker 2: would strike, she claims to the Buffalo News, and instead
Speaker 2: of warning women like her who lived in the area
Speaker 2: so they can make adequate decisions about protecting themselves, they
Speaker 2: used this woman to catch him in the act of she.
Speaker 1: Argues, so she sued the department so.
Speaker 2: Like they'd warned the neighborhood about robberies but did not
Speaker 2: mention the rapes to the media at all. Oh, the
Speaker 2: police say, revealing that would have changed his tactics and targets.
Speaker 2: So would have fucked with the investigation. But it's also
Speaker 2: like someone else could have not been raped. But okay,
Speaker 2: and this is what I told you earlier. That's going
Speaker 2: to make you so mad. So at the time of
Speaker 2: the attack, a senior police officers rejected calls from the
Speaker 2: Toronto Rape Crisis Center for sex Crimes unit because they
Speaker 2: considered rape not significantly different from other crimes. According to
Speaker 2: minutes of a nineteen seventy five police meeting, so like.
Speaker 1: The rape Crisis.
Speaker 2: Center was calling them and like wanted help, and they
Speaker 2: were just like fuck off, Like we know what we're doing.
Speaker 2: It's not like it's a special crime. And I think
Speaker 2: the reason I included this is because it kind of
Speaker 2: goes back to the Kathleen Ham case of like why
Speaker 2: was it mismanaged so poorly? And it's because people like this,
Speaker 2: like the men in charge did not think rape was
Speaker 2: a unique crime at y'ao. Yeah, So in Toronto, a
Speaker 2: sexual assault squad finally was established in nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 2: and this uh Jane Doe number five did win her
Speaker 2: case and the judge awarded her more than one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand US dollars In nineteen ninety eight and yeah,
Speaker 2: just thinking if the police were better. So those are
Speaker 2: the two cases that inspired the episode.
Speaker 1: But I also think the episode is like very heavily.
Speaker 2: And just like about the limitations about the statue.
Speaker 3: I don't know that there's maybe ever been a woman
Speaker 3: who's like hiding her rapist's identity because she feels he's rehabilitated,
Speaker 3: or maybe that's happened in real life.
Speaker 2: I wonder no, And I guess this case just deals
Speaker 2: with rehabilitation and what is it and what is not
Speaker 2: because this guy got out, but like the parole board
Speaker 2: legits like this man is unchanged, so who cares if
Speaker 2: he served twenty years? Like, and I don't know about
Speaker 2: I don't know really know about Canadian prisons, but it
Speaker 2: doesn't really feel like in US prisons there's much of
Speaker 2: an opportunity to like reform and change, right, Like aren't
Speaker 2: you just kind of living well it's a violence and yeah,
Speaker 2: you're like he got everybody.
Speaker 3: It's about punishment. It's not about you know, rehabilitation, it's
Speaker 3: about free labor. It's modern new slavery. It's not about it.
Speaker 2: It's like it's that's like the wildest thing when traveling
Speaker 2: abroad being like, oh wow, our prisons are businesses, Like that's.
Speaker 1: The most twisted.
Speaker 2: There's so much twisted things in our culture, but like
Speaker 2: that prisons are for profit is probably.
Speaker 1: One of the most sick. I would say, yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 2: Also hopefully by now Canada has like a sexual predator registry,
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck.
Speaker 3: Yeah, especially because we've specifically read so much about Canadian
Speaker 3: like killers and rapists, like there's a lot of them
Speaker 3: up there.
Speaker 2: Annalis did just check and Canada does have a registry,
Speaker 2: So thank you so much Canada for doing the bare minimum.
Speaker 1: Get on it, Canada, way to go.
Speaker 2: But it is like a it is wild because it's
Speaker 2: like if you did serve twenty years for crime, like
Speaker 2: what are the rules? I don't want to live next
Speaker 2: to cerial rapist, whether he spent twenty years in jail
Speaker 2: or not, Like I don't know, I.
Speaker 3: Know, And it's like I my tendency is to like
Speaker 3: feel bad, which is wrong. Like when they did that
Speaker 3: episode of like Welcome to the Pedo Motel where like
Speaker 3: Caresi's undercover with like all these people that are pedophiles
Speaker 3: and like some of them have been some of them
Speaker 3: just were arrested for sex abuse images. Some of them,
Speaker 3: you know, actually had worse crimes, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: that does suck that you served your time and no
Speaker 3: one will allow you to coexist with them anywhere. Like,
Speaker 3: but it also is like I don't want that.
Speaker 2: You know, there's like an area in Florida where a
Speaker 2: bunch of pedophiles live, like in a cornfield somewhere. Really
Speaker 2: Florida's have corn I think there's a documentary about it,
Speaker 2: because the whole thing is it's like it is hard
Speaker 2: to find somewhere to live because you can't be near
Speaker 2: a school, you can't be near all of these different places.
Speaker 3: So it's you get all the background checks and like
Speaker 3: apartments won't take you.
Speaker 2: And so there's like a community of sexual offenders and
Speaker 2: pedophiles in Florida that all live together in that like
Speaker 2: some trailer park or I'm making this up in like
Speaker 2: a fever dream.
Speaker 1: That I had, but I do feel it. Israel. I
Speaker 1: think you're looking it up.
Speaker 3: I am. Originally I just got Jeffrey Epstein's Island but
Speaker 3: inside Miracle Village Florida's isolated community of sexual sex offenders. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: there's a big Vice article about it.
Speaker 1: From twenty fifteen.
Speaker 2: They all live there, and then I wonder like do
Speaker 2: they all have like spouses and are they raising families
Speaker 2: around the other pedophiles or the person.
Speaker 1: They interview here is a woman.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying women can't be sex offenders, but
Speaker 3: it's just it's like, Yeah, this woman's moving into this community,
Speaker 3: these other sex offenders, and it's interesting.
Speaker 1: She's like it's varied.
Speaker 3: Like sometimes it's guys that are like eighteen and had
Speaker 3: a girlfriend.
Speaker 1: Who was sixteen.
Speaker 3: You know, like that sucks that you should be turned
Speaker 3: out from society because you were dating someone two years
Speaker 3: younger than you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sucks.
Speaker 3: I find myself immediately going to a place of pity
Speaker 3: and feeling bad, and then I'm like, wait, no, they
Speaker 3: did commit horrible crimes.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of them. But then it's like it's
Speaker 1: why are you taking the risk?
Speaker 2: I just feel like so often us as women like
Speaker 2: don't walk at night, don't do this, don't do that,
Speaker 2: don't do that, And so for a minute's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: just don't fuck people under eighteen.
Speaker 1: Can you not handle that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: You can't handle this one little thing that you're supposed
Speaker 2: to do to not go to jail. So to me,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, fuck yourself, I don't care about you.
Speaker 2: That's not true.
Speaker 1: I care. I don't know. I just do a funny
Speaker 1: joke about it.
Speaker 3: Go see her live, all right, And now we have
Speaker 3: a guest to cleanse the palette. As always, stay right
Speaker 3: where you are, Guys, today's guests, you could call a
Speaker 3: queen of the procedural drama. You've seen her in tons
Speaker 3: of appearances on everything from not just a Law and
Speaker 3: Order original Recipe, not just Criminal Intent, but also more
Speaker 3: recently Chicago Med New Amsterdam Blue Bloods, and today you
Speaker 3: know her as the rape victim who will never tell
Speaker 3: Jennifer Neil. Guys are interview is with the lovely Jenny Bacon.
Speaker 1: Are you based in New York area?
Speaker 6: Yes, am, okay, I can tell.
Speaker 1: The daylight's a little bit different over there.
Speaker 6: It's a little different, and it's springtime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just I just flew back from New
Speaker 2: York yesterday. But also you're a theater gal, so we
Speaker 2: kind of assumed you were in New York doing all
Speaker 2: the hits. Obviously you probably missed so much during pandemic lockdown,
Speaker 2: and how thrilled you probably are to be back.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you know most if it's being mom now though,
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, no, it's mostly being mom.
Speaker 1: How old are your kids?
Speaker 6: There are seventeen and fifteen?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, teens?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Are they in the arts?
Speaker 6: They are?
Speaker 1: Are they?
Speaker 2: Are you going to like their school plays and stuff?
Speaker 2: Are they in the Yeah?
Speaker 1: That's really cute.
Speaker 2: And do you remember any of your favorite kind of
Speaker 2: plays that you were in at school? Or I did
Speaker 2: see your went to Northwestern and I'm a scho I
Speaker 2: grew up in Skoki.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and we have a theory. We don't know
Speaker 1: what the theory.
Speaker 2: Is, but we've talked to like a dozen people from
Speaker 2: SVU that have gone to Northwestern, so many people. We
Speaker 2: don't have the theory yet.
Speaker 6: But are there another person in the episode that we're
Speaker 6: going to be talking about We were at Northwestern at
Speaker 6: the same time. Oh yeah, Seana Coovid, who played the
Speaker 6: very shy and afraid victim.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she calls you a bitch?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that was really fun. Does she call me
Speaker 6: a crazy bitch or.
Speaker 1: A stupid bitch? Tell me his name? You crazy?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was awesome.
Speaker 5: So yeah, we knew each other, so even more cool
Speaker 5: cold yeah, I think that the secret mystery is just
Speaker 5: that Northwestern has a great acting school, right, is that it?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: I think that is.
Speaker 3: But you but that's so cool that you get to
Speaker 3: run into old alums and pals from that when you're
Speaker 3: doing TV work and stuff. And I looked her up too,
Speaker 3: and she's she works and seems like she's doing great.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's awesome. She's totally awesome.
Speaker 2: But yeah, are there any like roles you remember as
Speaker 2: like a youth where you were like, oh, yeah, this
Speaker 2: is I'm gonna yeah that you look fondly on that
Speaker 2: you remember.
Speaker 6: Well, the first big break I got as a sophomore
Speaker 6: was playing violin Twelfth Night. Oh that was super duper
Speaker 6: fun because it was a pants part, you know, oh
Speaker 6: yeah wear the pants. So that was awesome.
Speaker 1: That's cool, and.
Speaker 2: It is an honor to have you not only as you,
Speaker 2: but you have the trifecta. You know, your Law and
Speaker 2: Order Criminal Intent and an SVU a.
Speaker 6: Lot the two sews.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, oh we know we know about both, but
Speaker 1: we knew so was what Like?
Speaker 3: I think Law and Order original Recipe is probably one
Speaker 3: of your first big breaks that you got. And then
Speaker 3: did it just work where they knew you at the
Speaker 3: casting office, and so they pushed.
Speaker 1: You over for SVU or like, how did all these
Speaker 1: how did you how did your Dick Wolf journey begin?
Speaker 1: Please tell us your origin story.
Speaker 6: So apparently the great thing about original recipe is that
Speaker 6: they had been working together for so long as complete meritocracy,
Speaker 6: and everybody knew that they were working at the top
Speaker 6: of their game, and people could work their way up
Speaker 6: inside in the production half of things. So the guy
Speaker 6: who directed my episode, it was his first time directing
Speaker 6: Wow the show, and he had worked his way up.
Speaker 6: He had just you know, like from you know, third
Speaker 6: a D to second a D to first D a D
Speaker 6: and this was his thing. And he had She's seen
Speaker 6: me do play down in the East Village, like you know,
Speaker 6: like you know, rock and roll theater. And he's like,
Speaker 6: that's my you know, like because I always have to
Speaker 6: be a villain, you know, I just have to be
Speaker 6: like sort of psycho. He's like, she's my villain, you know,
Speaker 6: like I got her, you know, and uh, and so
Speaker 6: that was awesome. And Constantine Machris, who directed the episode
Speaker 6: that we're talking about, he was the cinematographer on that
Speaker 6: first episode. Oh, he knew that I was going to
Speaker 6: be his villain because we had done the other together. Yeah.
Speaker 6: So it's just it's the whole like family aspect of
Speaker 6: these shows is amazing. And I got to say that
Speaker 6: it's SVU that has the real because Marishka is the goddess.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, and so she's like and it was really
Speaker 6: fun to go back and see like way back when,
Speaker 6: you know, because when she first started, she's like coming
Speaker 6: in to work and she's wearing her like leather parents
Speaker 6: and her fabulous like super furry coat. She's so gorgeous
Speaker 6: and sexy, and then she has to bensen up, you
Speaker 6: know and just like go gray, all gray, like buttoned
Speaker 6: up and stuff. And it's kind of fun to see
Speaker 6: how over the years, uh, you know, Olivia has been
Speaker 6: having Marishka bleed into her. You know, like she's just
Speaker 6: like getting more like fluid and you know, sexy, and
Speaker 6: it's it's just been really fun to see. But she
Speaker 6: is the centerpiece. She like holds the whole thing together
Speaker 6: from the minute you walk in. You know, she is
Speaker 6: in charge, and she knows everybody's great at what they do,
Speaker 6: and she wants them to be great at what they
Speaker 6: do and she makes that happen. And she's so supportive
Speaker 6: and she's specifically supportive too, like she knows when somebody's
Speaker 6: doing a really good job at what they do. She
Speaker 6: knows what everybody is doing, and she'll offer, like for
Speaker 6: a guest person, she will offer when the cameras go off,
Speaker 6: she'll offer something really generous. She'll say something super nice
Speaker 6: that just makes you go because you're always sort of like, uh,
Speaker 6: am I doing it?
Speaker 1: Right? Sure?
Speaker 3: She just like well, And also because you were on
Speaker 3: the first season, so right, like I don't even know
Speaker 3: if it was you know, now it's a well oiled
Speaker 3: machine and like you know it's so but like but
Speaker 3: for season one, I wondered did she have that same yeah,
Speaker 3: like same question as Lisa, Like was she that way
Speaker 3: right then?
Speaker 1: Or are you speaking more.
Speaker 3: About season fourteen when you came back, or was she
Speaker 3: from the get go just like a boss.
Speaker 6: I would say that from the get go she was
Speaker 6: a boss because you can see it in her eyes,
Speaker 6: you know, like when she's like when they put her
Speaker 6: up against like a bad guy and she just looks
Speaker 6: right at him and she's like.
Speaker 1: Not today.
Speaker 6: And it's just that she has that energy in her,
Speaker 6: And part of it's like because she's just a perfect
Speaker 6: physical specimen of a human being. You know, she's walks
Speaker 6: into a room and she just like kind of she
Speaker 6: just knows that her job is to be optimistic, confident,
Speaker 6: you know, and to deal with it if it goes wrong,
Speaker 6: you know, like find a way. Yeah, and she does.
Speaker 6: It's like, Wow, it's like I wish you were my mom.
Speaker 1: That's cool to hear that.
Speaker 2: It was from season one and I loved what you
Speaker 2: said that, like she knows other people are good at
Speaker 2: what they do, and like that's like cool leadership to
Speaker 2: kind of trust the people around.
Speaker 6: You exactly exactly and reinforce everything good that's happening. She's fantastic.
Speaker 3: And then you got to come back for season fourteen
Speaker 3: and see how after like you know, a decade plus,
Speaker 3: how much like more in charge she was, because I
Speaker 3: think by now she was like an executive producer and
Speaker 3: like actually really in charge, like not just attitude.
Speaker 6: But like you know, title exactly and yeah, and she's
Speaker 6: just she does. What you would want to do is
Speaker 6: like if you were emperor of the world, how would
Speaker 6: you want to be You'd want to be like Maurushika
Speaker 6: that's how you'd want to be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because so many people choose another way, right, so
Speaker 3: many people are like evil dictators, and she just chooses
Speaker 3: this positivity.
Speaker 1: It's really cool to hear from so many people.
Speaker 2: And how was Maloney shop liver compared to Murska? But yeah,
Speaker 2: any Maloney scoops?
Speaker 6: No, I don't really have any Maloney scoops. I just
Speaker 6: know that, you know. Part of my job was he
Speaker 6: has one really great line in one scene that we
Speaker 6: have together where he goes, you prayed with your rapist, like,
Speaker 6: and so I felt like the whole scene was just
Speaker 6: to make sure that we set that up so that
Speaker 6: would just like man and.
Speaker 1: It's it's like a kind of a fun line from
Speaker 1: him because his character is so religious too. He's like
Speaker 1: the church boy.
Speaker 3: So it's, yeah, I know, praying, and I don't think
Speaker 3: you do that with your rapist.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 6: That was what was fun about the episode actually was
Speaker 6: that it really put both of the detectives in the
Speaker 6: hot seat personally. You know, that was really fun because
Speaker 6: you know, Benson doesn't want to doesn't want to be there,
Speaker 6: and neither does you know, neither does Maloney. Then neither
Speaker 6: of them want to be there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is a cool episode because I feel like
Speaker 3: there's like there are like moral dilemmas, Like at first,
Speaker 3: everybody hates your character, you know, they're just like say it,
Speaker 3: give up the name, you know, But then kind of at.
Speaker 1: The end you're like, I don't know, maybe you know
Speaker 1: like this, I don't know. I'm not saying.
Speaker 3: I was totally like, yeah, don't give I'm not saying
Speaker 3: I thought she was totally right, but I could see
Speaker 3: a little bit more where she was coming from, you know,
Speaker 3: Like I think it just makes you stop and think, Yeah,
Speaker 3: what are.
Speaker 2: Your views on your character that you played? How do
Speaker 2: you feel about her?
Speaker 6: I am so glad that you said that, because actually,
Speaker 6: because when you know the end, right, and my character
Speaker 6: is the only one who knows the end, she's like
Speaker 6: she thinks she's so good, and you know, when you're
Speaker 6: playing the bad guy who's the good guy, who is
Speaker 6: the bad guy's good gun, you still have to believe.
Speaker 6: He was like, no, no, she really wants to do
Speaker 6: the right thing. This is Yeah. So I have a
Speaker 6: funny story to tell you about that. Actually, it's a
Speaker 6: couple of days after the episode aired. I was out
Speaker 6: waiting to meet a friend at Vasilka, the amazing Kreated
Speaker 6: restaurant in the East Village, and I'm standing there and waiting.
Speaker 6: My friend is late, and this woman is looking at
Speaker 6: me like her eyes she is she is sending so
Speaker 6: much shade my way. She's like trying to make me
Speaker 6: leave with her eyes, and I'm like what. And I'm
Speaker 6: a natural beta, so I'm like, I did something wrong,
Speaker 6: I did something wrong? What did I do? What did
Speaker 6: I do wrong? I'm like getting more and more and
Speaker 6: like trying to say I don't do anything. I'm fine,
Speaker 6: I'm fine. And then all of a sudden, her face
Speaker 6: like a veil lists and she went, oh my god,
Speaker 6: you were on TV. She's like I'm over here thinking,
Speaker 6: oh my god, why do I think this woman.
Speaker 1: Is so creepy?
Speaker 6: I don't know you. It was like the funniest thing.
Speaker 6: I'm thinking, like, Oh, On the one hand, I like, wow,
Speaker 6: hooray someone recognized me. And then I'm like, how many
Speaker 6: people are my walking past thinking like I hate her?
Speaker 6: I don't know why that I hate her, just like
Speaker 6: in the back of their minds Oh so funny.
Speaker 1: It's like did we go to high school together? Why
Speaker 1: do I hate you?
Speaker 6: Like why do I hate you?
Speaker 1: No, she is yeah, an easily hateable character.
Speaker 2: Did you know about statue of limitations or like Quakerism
Speaker 2: or anything like that before you came to film.
Speaker 1: Did you do any research or learn anything like from
Speaker 1: the episode?
Speaker 6: Absolutely? Mostly though what I was interested I did have
Speaker 6: my brother had a friend who had watched these episodes,
Speaker 6: and they sort of played a game where she would guess.
Speaker 6: She'd be like, she's an abused woman, she's religious, she
Speaker 6: said like, she like, she's like and she was always
Speaker 6: right and she could guess like I would like lay
Speaker 6: the clues in just for her and she would know,
Speaker 6: like right away what was happening. Wow, so the deal
Speaker 6: is right, there's a trauma that's happened, and how do
Speaker 6: you It's the trauma that comes first, and then how
Speaker 6: do these people like, uh, how do they grab the
Speaker 6: tools that they need? And once you've grabbed a tool,
Speaker 6: you don't let go of it. You hang on to
Speaker 6: that tool for dear life and you do not let go.
Speaker 6: And I felt like for it to stay alive, the
Speaker 6: question had to keep coming up. The question had to
Speaker 6: always be in front of her, and that was partly
Speaker 6: why she was so annoying was because she would talk
Speaker 6: really slowly, like she's very cautiously moving towards the thing
Speaker 6: that is probably going to happen. That sort of that
Speaker 6: was the So I didn't do so much on Quakerism
Speaker 6: in June. But I thought it was a good choice
Speaker 6: that they chose Quakerism as the as the backdrop, because
Speaker 6: it puts the whole It puts Olivia in a bigger bind. Right.
Speaker 6: The idea is to make the problem as hard as
Speaker 6: possible for the protagonists of the show. Right right now, you.
Speaker 2: Just kind of changed my mind a little bit because
Speaker 2: I forgot about the trumper.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, she's holding onto it.
Speaker 2: Who knows if she even believes it, but she feels
Speaker 2: like she has to continue doing this for the way something.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's the only way that she can wake up
Speaker 6: in the morning, you know, Right, And so that's but
Speaker 6: this is what happens when we bumped up against each other, right.
Speaker 3: But I feel like your voice is a huge part
Speaker 3: of the character. Like, listen, I've seen all five hundred
Speaker 3: and whatever episodes of the show. There are many of them,
Speaker 3: many times, and you're a victim that like stands out
Speaker 3: to me because of the way you talk. I think
Speaker 3: like because of the way you spoke in this episode,
Speaker 3: I'm always like, oh, yes, the woman who won't give
Speaker 3: up her own rapist and she knows him, and she's
Speaker 3: so zen and calm, like you, you know, you stick
Speaker 3: out in a sea of victims in the show, and.
Speaker 1: How is it filming getting yelled at by your other awesome?
Speaker 6: Well, see this was also interesting, right because there's three victims,
Speaker 6: and so it's like a fairy tale, right, and so
Speaker 6: there's only one of us that's actually sympathetic, and that's
Speaker 6: Shawna's character. And I think that Judith and I both
Speaker 6: were sort of wondering, like, well, how come my how
Speaker 6: come I guy? I mean, my good has a good
Speaker 6: reason to behave the way they're behaving. They have to
Speaker 6: behave this way. But like if everybody was like Shawna's character,
Speaker 6: nothing would get done. I mean, like what about us,
Speaker 6: you know, like we're not bad, We're not bad.
Speaker 1: She's just like so.
Speaker 3: Sweet and like cannot move on until you say and
Speaker 3: the other one's just like I sue everyone and then
Speaker 3: you have the secret.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, she is the sweet one kind of.
Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden she switches.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it was so good. We love it.
Speaker 3: We love a you crazy bitch lying on this show
Speaker 3: for sure. And you noticed any big differences between like
Speaker 3: when you do when you've done original recipe versus sbu
Speaker 3: versus criminal Intent, since you've done all three.
Speaker 6: Well yes, mostly because Marishka. Mostly because Marishka. The Criminal
Speaker 6: Intent was super duper fun. But you don't feel that
Speaker 6: they are at risk, Like it's Marishka's character. She's managed
Speaker 6: to create like an arc, like a never ending arc
Speaker 6: that's always moving forward. She has a capacity to accumulate experience,
Speaker 6: she has capacity to grow, she has the capacity to change.
Speaker 6: She's therefore unpredictable, like we're never entirely sure how she's
Speaker 6: going to absorb something and then move it forward the
Speaker 6: other shows. The Criminal Intent was really fun because that
Speaker 6: character that I got to play was a complete psycho
Speaker 6: killer that's like utterly and so I remember there was
Speaker 6: one scene where the director was like, Okay, in this scene,
Speaker 6: I think she should be even crazier, and I said, no,
Speaker 6: this scene, she should be perfectly normal. She should be
Speaker 6: it should be like just one of those other like
Speaker 6: really short dum you know moments where they're like, hey,
Speaker 6: the well, the garbage truck came and then he left,
Speaker 6: you know, like the end. And I should be like
Speaker 6: the most normal possible like presentation, so that it's like
Speaker 6: this that you never know it's so the data set
Speaker 6: is just completely random. Yeah, you have no idea what's
Speaker 6: going to happen. And then the original recipe was just
Speaker 6: sort of more I don't know, it's more serious somehow,
Speaker 6: I think, cause Sam Waterston's eyebrows just it's just very serious, very.
Speaker 1: Important character on the show, those eyebrows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talked to a lot of actors that say, like,
Speaker 2: while in New York, being in a Law and Order
Speaker 2: as a stamp of approval, you're not a New York
Speaker 2: actor till you get to do SV and stuff.
Speaker 1: But you did those all so early. Did you still
Speaker 1: feel that or was.
Speaker 2: It like a bragging thing like I was on season one,
Speaker 2: Like how did you feel about getting that stamp?
Speaker 5: Men?
Speaker 6: No, it's a massive stamp. It's massive. It's like you're yeah,
Speaker 6: and you know I did do them early, but that
Speaker 6: was more like like go for it, man, go for it.
Speaker 6: You're here, You're part of the you're part of the
Speaker 6: tribe now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and could you imagine that show would go on
Speaker 3: for twenty three seasons?
Speaker 5: Wow?
Speaker 6: Amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean, Karen and I are always really impressed, and
Speaker 2: we ask a lot of questions about the tears, the crying,
Speaker 2: the single tear. But you and and actually both of
Speaker 2: your episodes, what's impressive is like you have wet eyes,
Speaker 2: they're not dropping. Is that just naturally you're in the moment.
Speaker 2: Is that a calculated decision? And how do you keep
Speaker 2: your eyes so wet?
Speaker 3: You're using drops? Tell us you're using drops in between two?
Speaker 3: That's all we want to hear.
Speaker 6: It's funny, you know, it's actually I remember when I
Speaker 6: was very young, I worked with this amazing actress named
Speaker 6: Irma p. Hall who's unfortunately passed on now. But she
Speaker 6: was a woman who came to acting late in life,
Speaker 6: and she would talk about how people would say, oh,
Speaker 6: you know, do you think you could cry in this scene?
Speaker 6: She'd be like, honey, I could cry all day. I
Speaker 6: could just cry and cry and cry. And really, you know,
Speaker 6: you can think about any number of things that but
Speaker 6: especially with the second one, it was it was that
Speaker 6: poor woman was just hit with so much all at once.
Speaker 6: And you know, when you love somebody, it just kicks in, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I just loved how progressive that relationship was too,
Speaker 1: just like yeah, we just we're partners. We love each other,
Speaker 1: we let each other do what we do. Like it
Speaker 1: was great.
Speaker 6: It's pretty exciting and unexpected.
Speaker 2: Well, both of your characters are so different from what
Speaker 2: you expect normal to be. You know, both the season
Speaker 2: one and fourteen characters are very different.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: That's true.
Speaker 3: I mean you're almost like this radical forgiveness is progressive
Speaker 3: as well, I would say in a way. You know that,
Speaker 3: Like you didn't see a lot of characters, like a
Speaker 3: lot of shows were just about fully law and order,
Speaker 3: like where's the justice, Like everyone wants justice and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: my idea of justice is different.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 6: That is I never thought of the through line between
Speaker 6: those two characters is radical forgiveness, but it's true. That's funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And how did you feel did you get to
Speaker 2: work with Amorrow Danny Pino?
Speaker 1: He was the other detective, wasn't he in your scene
Speaker 1: when you were I was telling a story, Yes, when
Speaker 1: I was telling this story.
Speaker 6: It's hard to say because Marishka is such a nice
Speaker 6: person that I feel like she could be partners with anybody,
Speaker 6: but there was definitely a gentleness and an ease to
Speaker 6: their partnership, and it was fun how they're allowed to
Speaker 6: have different they don't have to have the same reaction
Speaker 6: to the surprise.
Speaker 1: You notice so many good details. That's the theater. That's
Speaker 1: the theater, right, and.
Speaker 2: Then being in the Dick Wolf universe. We saw you
Speaker 2: also did Chicago Med. How was it going back to
Speaker 2: Chicago after doing theater there for so long and being
Speaker 2: able to film and like, what are the places you
Speaker 2: love to go and stay while you're in Chicago?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my gosh, it always becomes a Chicago tourism
Speaker 1: towards the end.
Speaker 6: Wow, well my mom is still there, as is my brother.
Speaker 6: So my mom actually got sick while I was shooting
Speaker 6: Chicago Med and so I was bringing her, you know,
Speaker 6: Thai food and stuff to that delicious chicken soup that
Speaker 6: makes you feel better. You know. It's always fun to
Speaker 6: go to Stuff and Wolf, that's for sure. That makes
Speaker 6: me happy.
Speaker 1: We saw that you did an episode of Bold.
Speaker 3: Did you ever get to meet Geneva Carr, She's the
Speaker 3: blonde that's like the main No, I.
Speaker 6: Did not that was another psycho killer. I was just
Speaker 6: an a warehouse holding a gun to his head from
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, I think.
Speaker 1: It's so funny we get cast as a psycho so much.
Speaker 6: Wow, Yeah right casting.
Speaker 2: Well, it was exciting to talk to you because it
Speaker 2: was gonna be like does her what is her voice?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like it's similar to your character? Very good demon. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you do voiceover?
Speaker 6: Uh? No, nobody wants to because I can't sell anything.
Speaker 6: I just make everybody fall asleep.
Speaker 3: No, you could absolutely do meditation apps. You're gonna do
Speaker 3: meditation apps Like I would absolutely listen to you to
Speaker 3: fall asleep, like just to calm down and not have
Speaker 3: anxiety at the end of the night.
Speaker 1: Not that you're putting me to sleep. You're very interesting.
Speaker 1: I just be in the tone of your voice.
Speaker 3: If you were like telling me a mundane story, I'd
Speaker 3: be right out like.
Speaker 6: Like awsome, get the phone book, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Is there any where that our listeners like any future
Speaker 2: projects or anything you want anyone to check out or
Speaker 2: find you on the internet or a cause you're into.
Speaker 6: Yeah, if you don't mind, there's there's a very small
Speaker 6: theater company in New York City and the name is
Speaker 6: Houses on the Moon and I love I work with them,
Speaker 6: sometimes not as an actor, but behind things. What's amazing
Speaker 6: about them is that each play that they do is
Speaker 6: completely unique and unique to the cause that they're from
Speaker 6: two thousand and one. Their mission statement has been to
Speaker 6: amplify the unheard voice, and they go into communities they
Speaker 6: walk the walk. They don't just talk the talk. They
Speaker 6: have community partners that they build relationships with that are
Speaker 6: sustained year after year after year. So for like, for example,
Speaker 6: when they worked on a show about deportation of gang
Speaker 6: youths back to Central America, they made relationships with advocacy
Speaker 6: groups and pro bono lawyer groups and all of these
Speaker 6: and these relationships are sustained. And when they did one
Speaker 6: about gun violence, they work with like different community groups
Speaker 6: that work with kids and neighborhoods that are difficult. They
Speaker 6: have a show on right now. I don't know when
Speaker 6: this episode airs, but it's called Superhero and it's happening
Speaker 6: at the Sheen Arts Center and it's really, really, really
Speaker 6: good and it's funny. That's the thing. Their shows are funny,
Speaker 6: but they never tell you what you're supposed to think about.
Speaker 6: These issues. They basically just lay it out for you.
Speaker 6: They're just laying it out. They're very authentic. That takes
Speaker 6: them forever to make a show. They're really cool and
Speaker 6: what is it called again, Houses on the Moon?
Speaker 1: Houses on the Moon? Okay, awesome, Thank you for sharing
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 6: Thank you for asking that. It be really nice to
Speaker 6: be able to talk about them.
Speaker 2: Are there any other like stories or tidbits that you'd
Speaker 2: love to share?
Speaker 6: All I can think is that, you know, when I
Speaker 6: did the original recipe, I was so amazed at the
Speaker 6: machine that whenever we had a break, I had changed
Speaker 6: it into my costume is fast as possible, and then
Speaker 6: I just watch everybody doing their thing, and it was
Speaker 6: just it was so amazing to watch everybody working at
Speaker 6: the same time, the lighting, the props, you know, set
Speaker 6: everything like and the pieces you know that they that
Speaker 6: it's like a big erector set and they can like
Speaker 6: take it apart and put it back together. And it's
Speaker 6: so different from live theater, but at the same time,
Speaker 6: the theatricality of it is so exciting. Just the very
Speaker 6: similitude if that's the word.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I've never heard that word in my life.
Speaker 1: But care.
Speaker 6: We're just down to the very the tiniest details, like
Speaker 6: everything was perfect. Everybody just does their jobs so well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we talk about that all the time, and
Speaker 2: I think as like, when you're not in the biz
Speaker 2: or whatever, you really don't know how many people and
Speaker 2: how many skills it takes to make this bee like
Speaker 2: a great production. And as to you, it's like we
Speaker 2: were just doing an episode where it was in a restaurant,
Speaker 2: and like they're the schedules in the back and the
Speaker 2: stickers and there's always just these little details everywhere that
Speaker 2: are so good.
Speaker 3: I think people think that they're just renting out a
Speaker 3: restaurant using whatever's around, and it's like no, no, no, They're
Speaker 3: like they're set decorating this whole thing, like they it's
Speaker 3: like all.
Speaker 1: The details and the mediculous control.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So we're very impressed by it all the time and
Speaker 1: glad to hear. We're glad to hear you are too.
Speaker 6: God, I wish I could think of some amazing story.
Speaker 6: I can't think of asking for the.
Speaker 3: Fact that this episode was on twenty one years ago,
Speaker 3: so you really really Oh, I.
Speaker 6: Know one thing, at the very beginning of the episode,
Speaker 6: it's not really a memory thing but it's just at
Speaker 6: the very beginning of the episode, I say a whitlock.
Speaker 6: Did you see I say A whitlock? Is like, he's like,
Speaker 6: that's the time you see the very beginning of the show,
Speaker 6: and it's just like I knew him from around and
Speaker 6: it's just so exciting to see it, to go back
Speaker 6: in time because I had actually forgotten because it's so
Speaker 6: tough and it's so just at the very very beginning.
Speaker 6: It's like, I'm so honored that he's like that he
Speaker 6: opens my first episode of SVU. Now you know now
Speaker 6: that he's.
Speaker 1: Like oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, he's so young.
Speaker 2: It's wild when you get to grow up with a
Speaker 2: lot of these actors and then be surprised.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is always a surprising start.
Speaker 6: And that you don't know, like because you know, there
Speaker 6: are a lot of people out there like, you know, oh,
Speaker 6: I'm going to be a star and it's like sure, yeah,
Speaker 6: you know, and it's like no, he's like, you know,
Speaker 6: he's Spike Lee's right hand man and he's like working
Speaker 6: with Donald Glover and he's like no, It's just like
Speaker 6: this is so cool. It's the little time capsules too.
Speaker 6: It's fun to take the ride back in the time
Speaker 6: capsule the nineties hair, So I kind of like, wow,
Speaker 6: look at that.
Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say, a lot of the people
Speaker 2: that we talked to from the earlier seasons to that, like,
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot shooting in New York, So it
Speaker 2: does seem like it was really a small community of
Speaker 2: actors overlapping and you probably saw each other at the
Speaker 2: Chelsea Piers all the time. And I kind of love
Speaker 2: thinking about all of you guys running into each other
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 3: Definitely, Well, they have not had you now in a
Speaker 3: few years. I think we've all forgotten about a back role.
Speaker 3: Now it's time and I'd like to see that psycho
Speaker 3: killer of you on this because you haven't done that
Speaker 3: on this one yet. So if you're listening, yes, for
Speaker 3: you casting, we have one Ny Bacon with a knife.
Speaker 2: We need her back, yeah, killing children or something really well.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like an unhinged mom.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's I think that's that's what America needs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I just love a Thespian.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I'm actually in the hotel where my Thespian high school
Speaker 2: banquet was upstairs.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, kind of cool. Right, Oh wow, Memory Lane,
Speaker 1: that's fun. That is fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I do love a theater goo you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, No, she was great. She definitely has like
Speaker 3: she should. I like, I told her, I'm like, you
Speaker 3: need to like be on like the meditation apps or something.
Speaker 3: Her voice is like so soothing, like she would put
Speaker 3: me right to sleep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I like that she had the inside scoop
Speaker 2: that Marishka was a star from season one. You know,
Speaker 2: she could tell. She could tell the more gossip the better.
Speaker 2: That was really cool and I like it.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I love this this episode at everything Quakers fighting.
Speaker 1: Just tell me his name, you stupid bitch. It's so
Speaker 1: good and I love U.
Speaker 2: Not I love but I enjoy doing local, smaller types
Speaker 2: of crimes that maybe not a lot of people know about.
Speaker 2: I obviously love doing the massive research of like a
Speaker 2: Scott Peterson or Eileen Morenos, but I really do, in
Speaker 2: a different way enjoy researching these smaller crimes that just
Speaker 2: like have what do you call it?
Speaker 1: I don't know all crimes are equally important.
Speaker 3: No, but more like yeah, not sort of lower profile
Speaker 3: crime and though they're even though they're just the magnitude
Speaker 3: of every crime is important, like they're just not they
Speaker 3: don't just all get picked up by people magazine, you know.
Speaker 2: And this case like sparked new legislation and so that's
Speaker 2: you know, even like one person, I don't know, one
Speaker 2: bad thing can make a difference.
Speaker 1: I don't know what, I don't know what to say.
Speaker 3: No, it's like we have, like we have talked about
Speaker 3: a lot of cases where even if a person doesn't
Speaker 3: get justice, like it has changed one thing, you know,
Speaker 3: like sadly they don't, you know, they don't get the
Speaker 3: justice they deserve, but then hopefully future victims have been
Speaker 3: saved by their I hate to say sacrifice because they
Speaker 3: didn't do anything intentional, but you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but having to take the stand and doing all
Speaker 2: that it is. Yeah, and that's what the episode showed too,
Speaker 2: right right. Oh and it's the classic thing of someone
Speaker 2: commits a sexual crime and then gets not a lot
Speaker 2: of jail time and then comes back out and commits
Speaker 2: lots and lots more crimes like or all these like
Speaker 2: mass shooters and stuff like we just don't take these crimes.
Speaker 2: So this guy like raped got a small sentence, came
Speaker 2: out and then raped so many more people it's like,
Speaker 2: why are we not keeping rapists in jail?
Speaker 1: What the fuck? Yeah? But a great episode.
Speaker 2: But I also yeah, I also like Jenny Bacon did
Speaker 2: bring shit to light because I hated the character and
Speaker 2: then hearing her be like, you know, people heal in
Speaker 2: different ways, and this was the way that she was
Speaker 2: able to like yeat through. It made me really open
Speaker 2: my eyes to a different perspective on the character.
Speaker 1: No, that's a really good point.
Speaker 3: I forgot about that, And yeah, it's that was really interesting.
Speaker 3: I always like from the beginning was kind of like
Speaker 3: I see what she's talking about, but like you have
Speaker 3: to empathize with the other women and that they want justice,
Speaker 3: and yeah, I mean I don't know, what do you think?
Speaker 1: What do you think? And I know we like to
Speaker 1: pretend we know what's happening after the episode's over, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you think happens to that guy? He like
Speaker 1: goes to jail? Yeah, yeah, as he should.
Speaker 2: I don't know, right, Sometimes it's good that the show
Speaker 2: is fiction, but it's not what does our podcast prove?
Speaker 1: What else? Okay? I did see the meme making.
Speaker 2: Fun of like two women doing murder podcasts, but in
Speaker 2: it it was like what's up murder muffins? And we
Speaker 2: still don't have a name for everybody, And I wish
Speaker 2: we did. Murder muffins would have been good.
Speaker 1: I like calling them our dick wolf babies. Oh, okay,
Speaker 1: dick wolf babies. Oh I didn't know that. Okay, did
Speaker 1: I miss that? Said? We said it a long time ago,
Speaker 1: but then we like never really said it again. I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone's really attached to it.
Speaker 2: Please let us know how you feel about Dick will
Speaker 2: maybe our little dick wolf pops. Oh, I get it more.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I watched a wild video on the
Speaker 2: Internet of a cat and a fox getting into a
Speaker 2: fight and the cat fucking got away.
Speaker 1: But it was fucking wild. It was wild. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: cat you've got for her life and the cat one.
Speaker 3: You know what Olivia Benson would have said to that cat.
Speaker 3: You did what you needed to do to survive. Yeah,
Speaker 3: don't blame yourself, mittens, Mittens, don't blame yourself.
Speaker 1: You did exactly what you had to do. All right. Listen,
Speaker 1: let's move in to our what would Sister Peg do?
Speaker 3: Segment? This is our weekly segment where we point you
Speaker 3: to a organization book article, something to help shed more
Speaker 3: light on the topic we touched on in today's episode,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to point out this New York Times
Speaker 3: article that is called should Statutes of Limitations for Rape
Speaker 3: Be Abolished? And obviously the link is in our show notes.
Speaker 3: And the article is a story about Donna Palumba, a
Speaker 3: woman who was raped in nineteen ninety three and shoddy
Speaker 3: police work and statutal limitations in the state of Connecticut
Speaker 3: all contributed to her not getting the justice she deserved.
Speaker 3: And it explains the history of the statute of limitations
Speaker 3: that exist for sexual assault cases in several states and
Speaker 3: how that's gotten in the way of helping a lot
Speaker 3: of people in the.
Speaker 1: Same situation as Donna.
Speaker 3: And so I just thought it shed a lot more
Speaker 3: light in case you're like, what is the statute of limitations?
Speaker 3: Because you know it was different. This is a season
Speaker 3: one episode. The statutal limitations in New York has changed
Speaker 3: since this article came out, So since this episode came out,
Speaker 3: and since this article came out, So I think it's
Speaker 3: important if you want to know more about the statute
Speaker 3: limitations to get a little bit more context. This article
Speaker 3: is very helpful and that is as you know, as
Speaker 3: always in our show notes and on Instagram in our
Speaker 3: WWSPD highlight along with all of our other what would
Speaker 3: Sister peg dos that we've ever done.
Speaker 2: Next week's episode, we'll be doing Criminal Stories Season fifteen,
Speaker 2: episode eighteen. Get ready for Benson's Bouncing Curls and Hulu
Speaker 2: Peacock VPNs. Get your episodes in, do your homework or else,
Speaker 2: and we'll see you next week. Bye, guys, That's Messed
Speaker 2: Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 3: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 3: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 3: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 3: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 3: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our producer Annalie Nelson.
Speaker 1: And to our mixer John Bradley.
Speaker 2: And to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly
Speaker 2: Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive
Speaker 2: producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody
Speaker 2: at exactly right media.
Speaker 1: Dun dun