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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan Horror. A mom

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Speaker 1: and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little

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Speaker 1: daughters from the hiking trail killer behind joins in the manhunt.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. You guys, it's just

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Speaker 1: Securtive Devilston, you know still around that.

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Speaker 2: Had to mail a femail on Devilston hiking trail and

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Speaker 2: then took off from a small.

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Speaker 3: Black sports car with tables with Lee and we.

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Speaker 4: Suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing

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Speaker 4: the suspect that our suspects.

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Speaker 5: The name has been a positive match to the DNA

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Speaker 5: that we suspected to belong to our suspect at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Not just two hikers dead on a trail, a mother

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Speaker 1: and a father and the prime of their lives with

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Speaker 1: their two little girls ages seven and nine, brutally stabbed

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Speaker 1: dead on a fair emily hiking trail. But in the last.

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Speaker 5: Hours this Arkansas State Police special agents have arrested James

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Speaker 5: Andrew McGann twenty eight, of Springdale. He's been charge of

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Speaker 5: two council capital murder in the district of Clinton, David Brink,

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Speaker 5: and Kristin Amanda Brink.

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear this, Nancy.

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Speaker 6: The next court date for Devil's Den double murder suspect

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Speaker 6: Andrew McGann is set for January fifteenth, twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 6: It will be a pre trial continuation hearing in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

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Speaker 6: His defense is seeking to remove the death penalty, but

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Speaker 6: prosecutors intend to pursue it. The case is expected to

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Speaker 6: involve many hearings before the trial happens. McGann appeared in

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Speaker 6: civilian clothing and without restraints in his November hearing. This

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Speaker 6: after a judge granted his defense request for civilian clothing.

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Speaker 6: The trial is expected to be lengthy, potentially taking years

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Speaker 6: before it actually makes it to the inside of a courtroom.

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Speaker 1: How did we get here? Straight out to Carson Holiday,

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Speaker 1: joining US investigative senior news reporter us Son, I understand

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Speaker 1: the twenty eight year old alleged double killer is a

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Speaker 1: white male teacher who was just moved to this area,

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Speaker 1: and according to reports that we're trying to corroborate right now,

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Speaker 1: he was taken off his last job as a teacher

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Speaker 1: for inappropriate conduct with girls. Oh dear Lord in Heaven.

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Speaker 1: There he is, and it looks just like the composite sketch.

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Speaker 1: What is that? What do we know about this guy? Right?

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Speaker 7: So, Nancy, we know that he had just moved from

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Speaker 7: Oklahoma to Arkansas and was preparing to be a third

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Speaker 7: grade teacher at the elementary school in the area. Right

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Speaker 7: to school confirmed that. And before that he worked in Texas,

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Speaker 7: right he was a fifth grade teacher.

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Speaker 1: I believe you know, Angrea lewis joining me partner Sarce

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Speaker 1: Law firm, former felony prosecutor. If this is true, if

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Speaker 1: that is why he left Oklahoma and ended up here

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Speaker 1: and ended up at Devil's Den family hiking trail, why

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Speaker 1: in the world with the school have let it go quietly?

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Speaker 1: I just does it never end?

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Speaker 8: You know?

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Speaker 1: Hey, hey, Andrew, listen to what an ASP investigator had

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Speaker 1: to say.

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Speaker 9: We're not going to talk about his motive right now.

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Speaker 9: We're still exploring and to determine exactly what that motive was,

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Speaker 9: So it would be a little premature for us to

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Speaker 9: speak on that tonight.

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Speaker 1: Well, angew lewis I understand the Arkansas State Police investigators

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Speaker 1: caution regarding motive.

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Speaker 10: I can certainly take a very educated guess here. This

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Speaker 10: man is obviously twisted. They say, don't judge a book

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Speaker 10: by its cover, but we can tell by just looking

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Speaker 10: at his mugshot something is wrong with him. And we

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Speaker 10: know that because, as you just stated, it appears from

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Speaker 10: reports that he is someone who has either preyed upon,

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Speaker 10: has fixated upon, or has some type of nefarious desires

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Speaker 10: towards young girls in the past. And of course he

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Speaker 10: works in a school setting. And as you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 10: that's my primary practice. I handle sex abuse cases. I've

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Speaker 10: prosecuted sex abuse cases and now I represent the victims.

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Speaker 10: I see this a lot, and I'll tell you and

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Speaker 10: you just hit the nail on the head. The most

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Speaker 10: frustrating thing when you have someone that is praying on children.

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Speaker 10: Ninety nine percent of the time, that is not an

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Speaker 10: isolated incident. These are people, it's in their soul and

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Speaker 10: what we need to do as a society and as

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Speaker 10: a community. And always remember if someone is acting strangely

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Speaker 10: towards children, if someone gives you the creeps, especially if

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Speaker 10: someone appears to be sexually attracted or giving unwanted attention

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Speaker 10: to children, you need to be screaming that from the rooftops.

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Speaker 10: The schools need to be coming out and telling the

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Speaker 10: community because all they do is move to the next

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Speaker 10: school or community and cause havoc there or in this case,

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Speaker 10: murder people, likely for the sole reason of getting to

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Speaker 10: the children.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of speculation. Ron Bateman joining

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Speaker 1: me former sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland who investigated the

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Speaker 1: murder onland portrayal of Rachel mourn very similar to this case.

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Speaker 1: We were trying to determine motive. We knew, Ron Bateman,

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Speaker 1: that the little girls ran for their lives down this

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Speaker 1: rocky terrain there's Rachel Morin to get to safety. They

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Speaker 1: heard their mother screaming in the background. They said at

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Speaker 1: the time they saw their father getting stabbed, and that

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Speaker 1: the mom told them to run. So, when you were

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Speaker 1: analyzing for us in the hours after the double murder,

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Speaker 1: what may have happened the parents sent the little girls

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Speaker 1: to safety, and we talked about why would one guy

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Speaker 1: attack the husband, who is a big guy, A big guy,

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Speaker 1: all right, not that big, but really big and beefy.

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Speaker 1: Why would one guy take on the man and the woman,

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Speaker 1: the mom and the dad, And you deduced he had

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Speaker 1: tried to grab one of the little girls and the

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Speaker 1: parents were protecting them. Ron Bateman, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's really clear now that we know what his background is,

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Speaker 4: which absolutely me off to think that a proper background

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Speaker 4: was not done on this guy before he was hired

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Speaker 4: to a school system, the third school system that he

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Speaker 4: worked at. If they would have done their dual due

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Speaker 4: diligence on him, they would have learned these other past

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Speaker 4: behaviors and they wouldn't have hired him. That wouldn't have

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Speaker 4: kept him from being at this trail that day. But

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Speaker 4: it's just unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Why may it may have, Ron Bateman, Because if he's

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Speaker 1: moving from Arkansas to here, I mean, if he's moving

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Speaker 1: to Arkansas, then he came there because he was hired.

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Speaker 1: If he hadn't been hired by the school, he probably

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Speaker 1: would have been in some other state. But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: All of that is just spinning out. This is the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing we do when we prep for a trial.

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Speaker 1: We try to give the jury a motive. But isn't

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Speaker 1: it true Carson Holiday joining us from us son? Isn't

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Speaker 1: it true that the authority said from the very beginning

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Speaker 1: the parents were slaughtered, trying to quote protect the little girls.

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Speaker 1: Didn't that come out at the beginning?

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Speaker 7: Yes, in the family suddeness statement that they were trying

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Speaker 7: to save the little girls.

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Speaker 4: We're all sleeping the trail. Me and I've got a

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Speaker 4: maintenance person with me, first day kids, trying to locate

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Speaker 4: the family here, still calling for help.

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Speaker 1: We're hiking down Therefore, we're here.

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Speaker 2: At PERI before get into the lower part of the

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Speaker 2: Devil's Entrail, try to relate to the author.

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Speaker 4: And we found the victims down here.

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Speaker 11: They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.

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Speaker 1: The fact that the mother and father are stabbed dead

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Speaker 1: with the little girls running away is a huge psychological

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Speaker 1: indicator as to who the purp is. First of all,

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Speaker 1: Carson Holiday, before I go to doctor Janie Lacy, I

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Speaker 1: want to figure out how this guy was arrested. Is

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Speaker 1: it true he was slung up in a barber chair

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Speaker 1: at a salon getting his hair clipped. He's not even

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Speaker 1: worried he's gonna get caught. Yep, he was mid haircut

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Speaker 1: when they arrested him.

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Speaker 7: You know, he drove up with the car that he

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Speaker 7: escaped in and he was mid haircut when they handcuffed him.

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Speaker 7: The barber even took a video of police taking pictures

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Speaker 7: of the scene.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing that right now. I believe it is Lupita Salon,

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Speaker 1: Lupita Salon. This is from Adriana Luis Avolos on Facebook

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Speaker 1: and she was afraid and concerned. There is the alleged

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Speaker 1: getaway car. It's exactly as it was described. I got

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Speaker 1: to give a big shout out to the witnesses that

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Speaker 1: I did that car. Now. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it says to you. I'm just a trial lawyer.

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Speaker 1: But doctor Jamie Lacy joining a psychotherapist, author of How

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Speaker 1: to Heal from a Toxic relations Ship and more. Doctor,

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Speaker 1: He's not worried at all about being apprehended. That's pretty smug.

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Speaker 1: That's pretty arrogant. And I'm also curious if he was

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Speaker 1: going to get his hair shaved. Hey, let me get

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Speaker 1: the New York Control room to show you something really quickly,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Janey. I want to see the behind shot from

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Speaker 1: the rear of the alleged purp at the trail and

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Speaker 1: this outfit really cue a lot of witnesses. Doctor Jenny,

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Speaker 1: there it is. Now. If you zoom in on this,

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Speaker 1: which I've done a million times, you can see his

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Speaker 1: hair coming out from under his baseball cap. I wonder

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Speaker 1: if he saw this photo that we aired and realized

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Speaker 1: his hair color and his hair could be identified, and

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Speaker 1: he was at that salon me and haircut, I wondered,

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Speaker 1: was he getting his head buzzed? Was he getting his

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Speaker 1: hair up above his baseball cap? Long story short, isn't

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Speaker 1: that a tiny bit arrogant to be out slung up

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Speaker 1: and the salon's chair, just minding your own business after

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Speaker 1: a double murder and the cops are looking for you.

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Speaker 1: The ASP is nothing to be sneered at. And the

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Speaker 1: FBI was in on this thing.

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Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, you said it arrogant and confident, So if

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Speaker 8: he was going about it, I would have probably imagined

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Speaker 8: that he absolutely saw that video and thought that he

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Speaker 8: was smarter and thought that he was going to get

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Speaker 8: away with this crime. Hence the remote location with no

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Speaker 8: cell phone service, the tape on his car, and all

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Speaker 8: these other types of things, the fingerless gloves that was reported,

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Speaker 8: and then the specific clothes that you just saw that

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Speaker 8: we just saw on the screen. So he's wearing these

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Speaker 8: black clothing and the middle of the forest with the backpack,

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Speaker 8: So arrogant and confident and disconnected from the prime in

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Speaker 8: the sense that he probably believed that he was going

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Speaker 8: to get away with this.

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Speaker 1: Pri Nancy to doctor Michelle Dupree joining us. You know

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Speaker 1: her well. She capable to to fame during the Alex

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Speaker 1: Murdog double murder trial. That's her jurisdiction. By the way,

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Speaker 1: she is the author of Money, Mischief and Murder the

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Speaker 1: Murdog Dynasty. She's the author of for my Purposes Homicide

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Speaker 1: Investigation Field Guide and Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Dupree in that video, if I could see that again,

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Speaker 1: you see the Arkansas State troopers gathering his hair lying

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Speaker 1: there and it's from the hn Luis Avolo's Facebook. What

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Speaker 1: are they going to do with that hair? It gives

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Speaker 1: me hope there's DNA, explained doctor Dupree.

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Speaker 12: Nancy, it's probably not going to be for DNA because

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Speaker 12: DNA you would need the actual hair root for that.

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Speaker 12: So I may be able to find trace evidence from

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Speaker 12: that if they can match his hair on.

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Speaker 1: The mitochondrial DNA without a root. I know you need

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Speaker 1: the route for nuclear DNA, but what about mitochondrial DNA.

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Speaker 1: Can't you get that from a hair without a route?

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Speaker 12: You might be able to get mitochondrial DNA, yes, yes,

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Speaker 12: but not the traditional DNA that we normally think of.

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Speaker 1: Not to go deafcom four into the analysis of DNA.

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Speaker 1: But I have handled cases myself where a mitochondrial DNA

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Speaker 1: match was made to nuclear DNA on the scene. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter if it comes from the mother. You still

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Speaker 1: get the DNA match. You can yes straight out to

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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining us the hair on the floor from

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Speaker 1: the salon. That gives me hope that there will be

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Speaker 1: a DNA match. What does that mean? That means that

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Speaker 1: the perp somehow may have left DNA at the double

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Speaker 1: murder scene. That hair is important.

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Speaker 4: Let me respond to that because I've talked about this

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Speaker 4: on other shows, transference of evidence. When you were somewhere

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Speaker 4: committing a crime, you most likely, always that makes sense,

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Speaker 4: will leave something behind, blood, hair, fingerprints, whatever, and you

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Speaker 4: will take something with you carpet, fibers, soil from the

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Speaker 4: from the ground, what have you. But in this case,

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Speaker 4: it sounds like and I would be all over that

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Speaker 4: hair too in the in the salon that most likely

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Speaker 4: I would bet money that there's hair at that scene

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Speaker 4: that they're looking to link.

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Speaker 1: To McGann That what you're seeing right now is from

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Speaker 1: Agano Luis Ovolos on Facebook. You just said something super interesting,

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Speaker 1: Ron Bateman. I mean, it was all interesting to me

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Speaker 1: because I love crime scenes. You said the word soil.

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Speaker 1: I hope, I hope because we got a good description

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Speaker 1: of this guy, what he was wearing. I'm circle back

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Speaker 1: to Carson on that in a moment. But Ron, the

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Speaker 1: soil on that scene. He just moved here right to

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Speaker 1: take his new job at a teaching position. Scary the

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Speaker 1: soil on that scene. I wonder if they can match

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Speaker 1: that back to soil possibly even microscopic on his clothes,

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Speaker 1: on his shoes. Those parents put up the fight of

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Speaker 1: a lifetime, don't you know. They were grabbing at his hair,

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Speaker 1: leaving DNA on him, getting his DNA on them, and

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Speaker 1: then the possibility of soil from the hiking trail on

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Speaker 1: his clothes. Ron.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the app the FBI, who is providing special resources

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Speaker 4: in this case, will definitely be able to compare that

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Speaker 4: soil to soil that's found on his shoes, for example,

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Speaker 4: and putting him right on the scene.

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Speaker 1: You know another thing. Carson Holiday joining us along with

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Speaker 1: Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories. Carson joining us us Son, Carson.

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Speaker 1: I know this sounds crazy, right, but it's not. And

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Speaker 1: I've had other victims and witnesses tell me this, and

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Speaker 1: they're separated in time and space, that they got a

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Speaker 1: quote bad vibe off the purp. Now, in this case,

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Speaker 1: I was going to come to you about what he

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Speaker 1: was wearing that stuck out like a sore thumb, because

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Speaker 1: we were talking to Bateman about the shoes and the

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Speaker 1: possibility that soil samples from the hiking trail are on

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Speaker 1: his clothes. But this guy was decked out in all black,

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Speaker 1: and witnesses have stated we saw him, he wouldn't even

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Speaker 1: look us in the eyes we passed him. Look at this,

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Speaker 1: it's almost one hundred degrees weather out there, Carson. Isn't

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Speaker 1: it true that one of the eyewitnesses said he gave

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Speaker 1: her a bad feeling, He put off a bad vibe

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Speaker 1: and they noticed it and I'm getting a vibe. I'm

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Speaker 1: just looking at him. But they remembered it and recounted

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Speaker 1: it to police. Exactly, Nancy.

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Speaker 7: I think, especially as women, when you walk by a

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Speaker 7: big guy like that and you know he's just kind

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Speaker 7: of polking over in his dark clothes, it would be

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Speaker 7: impossible to not immediately get a feeling from him, and

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Speaker 7: maybe he was hurrying away from the scene, maybe he

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Speaker 7: was walking with some sort of focus. I mean, he

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Speaker 7: was stepped out in long sleeves, a black hat, black

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Speaker 7: head to toe, and he had that giant backpack on him.

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Speaker 7: He just seemed disheveled and again wearing that really hot

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Speaker 7: seeming clothes in such humid Arkansas heat. It would be

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Speaker 7: weird to not spot him and to not remember him

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Speaker 7: when you were asked.

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Speaker 13: To go for a white male suspect wearing black clothes, sunglasses,

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Speaker 13: and dark colored pants and two children are there.

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Speaker 3: We have more breaking news tonight the Arkansas State Police

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Speaker 3: giving us more details of the arrest in the Devil's

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Speaker 3: Den double homicide.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen from KOTV.

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Speaker 11: As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it

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Speaker 11: became clear that it was a Kia Stinger, and we

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Speaker 11: use that information to vet various owners, and our suspect

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Speaker 11: was identified.

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Speaker 13: Terrifying screens and calls for help are heard in Arkansas

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Speaker 13: State Park Devil's Den, prompting nearby hikers to sound of alarm.

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Speaker 1: What authorities find it shocks everyone in the last hours.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it was announced in the night, and arrest

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Speaker 1: has been made in the double homicide, the brutal knifing

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Speaker 1: of a mom and dad at Devil's Den hiking trail

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Speaker 1: straight out to Ron Bateman joining US former sheriff and

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Speaker 1: Arundel County, Maryland who exhaustively investigated the Rachel Mooren murders

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Speaker 1: very similar to this case. Weig in.

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Speaker 4: So if you go back to the picture of the

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Speaker 4: suspect from behind, you will notice what he's wearing is

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Speaker 4: not a hoodie. It's either a turtleneck, which I don't

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Speaker 4: believe it's a turtleneck. It looks like he could be

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Speaker 4: one of those full face covers that we wear during

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Speaker 4: a pandemic or people wear all the time, whether hunting

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Speaker 4: or fishing. But that seems very unusual to me. Do

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Speaker 4: you see that at the top of his neck that's

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Speaker 4: not an article of clothing like a shirt or a turtleneck.

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Speaker 4: That could be where he could pull something over his

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Speaker 4: face and his nose and cover his nose's mouth and

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Speaker 4: you know the rest of his face. And if you

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Speaker 4: see that picture there, he's mid haircut. He's not getting

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Speaker 4: a buzz cut, he's not getting all his hair saved.

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Speaker 1: Off.

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Speaker 4: He's too vain for that.

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Speaker 1: At least to me, like he's getting it cut, possibly

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Speaker 1: shaved up the bat but it's all above his ears.

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Speaker 1: See what's happening. And he was mid haircut, so we

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Speaker 1: don't really know what they were doing, but we know

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Speaker 1: he was getting it off of his collar and way up.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Janey Lacey joining me, Let's take a look at

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Speaker 1: what he is wearing, Doctor Janey, look at this. I

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Speaker 1: see why someone has mentioned it looks like his got

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Speaker 1: a ball of clava down around his neck. Oh Ron

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Speaker 1: Bateman said that we see that, we see a huge backpack.

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Speaker 1: What does he have in that? And the backpack itself

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Speaker 1: is easily identifiable. I'm just wondering if they found that

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Speaker 1: backpack that matches up to this photo. So, doctor Janie Lacy,

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Speaker 1: the way he's dressed, I mean, it's got to be

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Speaker 1: the victims DNA all over him, and I guarantee these

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Speaker 1: items are going to be found in his closet at

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Speaker 1: his new apartment.

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Speaker 8: I would certainly hope so, Nancy, because as we're looking

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Speaker 8: at what he's wearing, that would say a lot of

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Speaker 8: sorry is he's premeditation that he probably planned to have

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Speaker 8: everything that he needed in that bag, which will probably

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Speaker 8: tell us a lot about what he was planning when

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Speaker 8: they receive that backpack and the contents of that backpack,

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Speaker 8: And I would imagine with the parents and their instinct

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Speaker 8: to save and to protect the children, that they're DNA

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Speaker 8: that there's other evidence that would be on his clothing.

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Speaker 8: So to me, that would be really important that they

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Speaker 8: recover not only that backpack, but all of his clothing

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Speaker 8: that we see in this picture to be able to learn.

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Speaker 1: A lot about this horrific crime and his violent behavior.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories, with Nancy Grace Sidney Sumner joining me, Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories investigative reporter explain to us what we know right

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Speaker 1: now about the slaughter at Devil's Den? What do we

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Speaker 1: know happened? Pieced together by the nine one one calls

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Speaker 1: little girls running down the trail screaming what they reported?

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Speaker 1: How do we think the attacks went down Sydney Right.

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Speaker 2: Well, we don't have any publicly released information on what

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Speaker 2: actually happened. We have been hearing these little snippets of

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Speaker 2: nine to one one dispatch radio and that's where we're

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Speaker 2: starting to piece together what happened. So apparently this family

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Speaker 2: is walking on the trail mom and dad two little girls,

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Speaker 2: and they are approached by Andrew apparently at this point,

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Speaker 2: and he starts to attack the parents, attacks dad, possibly

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Speaker 2: stab dad in the chest. While the two little girls

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Speaker 2: are still with their parents, Mom tells these two young girls,

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Speaker 2: they are just seven and nine years old, to run

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Speaker 2: as far and as fast as they can and try

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Speaker 2: and get help. So these girls take off, and what

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Speaker 2: they tell the nine to one one dispatcher is that

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Speaker 2: they ran until they couldn't hear their mom screaming anymore.

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Speaker 2: So they run into some adult on the trail, and

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Speaker 2: we think that they ran a very long distance, almost

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Speaker 2: a mile, until they ran into we're not sure, some

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Speaker 2: kind of an adult, maybe another family, a couple, and

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Speaker 2: someone escorted them to the visitor center, where an attendant

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Speaker 2: called nine one one, and at this point the attendant

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Speaker 2: just believed that maybe these children were just separated from

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Speaker 2: their family. It wasn't until the girls were put on

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Speaker 2: the phone directly with the nine one one dispatcher that

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Speaker 2: it was understood that their parents had actually been attacked.

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Speaker 2: So at this point that's when you hear Stage four

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Speaker 2: police two people have been attacked, possible stabbing, and officers

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Speaker 2: are now searching the trail for these injured people, and

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Speaker 2: what we know is that officers actually heard falls for

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Speaker 2: help before they made it out to Clinton and Kristen Brink,

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Speaker 2: So it was so sad that they were so close

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Speaker 2: to possibly have gotten these parents' medical attention that they needed,

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Speaker 2: but by the time they located Kristen and Clinton, they

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Speaker 2: were deceased.

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Speaker 3: While first responders initially hear screen and calls for help,

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Speaker 3: by the time they reached the victims on the trail,

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Speaker 3: it's clear the victims are deceased. There's no sign of

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Speaker 3: their attacker. Officers quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers

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Speaker 3: as they exit the park to piece together what happened.

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Speaker 3: Several hikers remember passing the family and many others on

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Speaker 3: the trail, but a few point out there was only

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Speaker 3: one person they saw alone on the trail that day,

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Speaker 3: a medium build, white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap,

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Speaker 3: and sunglasses with dark blonde or light brown hair.

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Speaker 13: What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in

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Speaker 13: a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and

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Speaker 13: dad are suddenly discovered in an Arkansas state park with.

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Speaker 1: Me an all star panel tomate any sense of what

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Speaker 1: we are learning right now. We do know that overnight

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Speaker 1: it was announced and arrest had been made. The so

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Speaker 1: called Devil's Den Hike trail killer was apprehended, according to police.

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Speaker 1: Carson Holiday joining us from son, Carson, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out how this guy was apprehended, what led to him.

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Speaker 1: I have a reason to believe it may have been

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Speaker 1: his vehicle, But Carson Holiday, you may have a different theory.

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Speaker 1: How was this guy identified?

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Speaker 7: I believe it was the composite sketch. The composite sketch

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Speaker 7: was really right on, and he was wearing I mean,

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Speaker 7: obviously we have that picture from behind that I feel

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Speaker 7: like is very recognizable. That backpack is pretty unique. Again,

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Speaker 7: the balaklava sort of thing around his neck, and then

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Speaker 7: the hat, that all just seems very recognizable. I believe

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Speaker 7: someone saw him going in to get the haircut, which

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Speaker 7: is where he was arrested, and maybe called it in. Obviously,

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Speaker 7: we'll learn more as the police release more details.

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Speaker 1: We're learning that police, well it's Arkansas State Police along

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Speaker 1: with the FBI, are crediting video tips. I don't really

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Speaker 1: know what that means, but video tips also to doctor

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Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree joining US renowned pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective.

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Speaker 1: When I hear people talk about balaklava, now I can't help.

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Speaker 1: I will forever think of Brian Coberger and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like this guy took a page out of Coburger's book.

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Speaker 1: Coburger dressed all in black, face, mask, gloves, The work

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Speaker 1: works just like this guy. What do you make of it?

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Speaker 1: Does that really protect you from DNA transfers?

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Speaker 12: No, Nancy, it doesn't. I think that he was under

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Speaker 12: a misconception that it would. But there are still going

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Speaker 12: to be lots of trace evidence on hairs, fibers, soil,

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Speaker 12: things like that. It gives him a false sense of

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Speaker 12: security that he won't be identified, and it does make

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Speaker 12: it harder to identify, but there are still ways to

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Speaker 12: do that. And as we've seen here, there's a great

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Speaker 12: sketch of him.

436
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 1: It really is, it really is. You know, that's hard

437
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: to do, doctor Michelle Dupre, You and I have worked

438
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: with a lot of composite sketches. It looks nothing like

439
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: the person, and the defense has a field day with

440
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: it at trial. I mean, I've seen some composite sketches

441
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: that didn't look at all like the But I had

442
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: a DNA match, so I know it's him. Long story short,

443
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: the defense gets a hold of that back and posit

444
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: and goes, look, that's not him, and that's not a

445
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 1: good look for the prosecution in this case. I think

446
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I think it looks a lot like him.

447
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: But doctor Michelle Duprey, not only author and pathologist, also

448
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: former detective now Kerson Holiday thinks that it had to

449
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: do with other evidence. I think it had to do

450
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: the apprehending him had to do with this car because

451
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 1: you look and you see in the database who's there,

452
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: who's in the jurisdiction driving a black Mazda four door

453
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: with I don't know if the whole tag was covered up,

454
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: if partial tag was covered up. Look at this. This

455
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: is again from Adriana luis Avolos on Facebook. There it

456
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: is right there. Yep, it's a four door, just like

457
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: the witnesses said. And the car database is easy to find.

458
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: Now we know part of that tag was obscured with

459
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: duct tape. He planned a him. But even if you

460
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: get the outside of the tag, you can identify the

461
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: state and maybe more so, what do you think led

462
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: them to this guy apprehended, all kicked back getting his

463
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: hair done.

464
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 12: Nancy, I think you're actually right. I think that someone

465
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 12: saw this car and probably saw it maybe being parked,

466
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 12: and saw this person going into the barbershop to get

467
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 12: a haircut, and then you match that up with the sketch,

468
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 12: and I think you've absolutely got it. You've got it

469
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 12: wrapped up.

470
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: Hey, listen to this, doctor dupray.

471
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: Several other hikers take notice of a man in dark

472
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: clothes on Devil's Done Trail one nine call, reporting he

473
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 3: appeared to have blood on him. While initial reports put

474
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 3: the sub inspecked in a black tank top, police revise

475
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 3: the description to a dark colored long sleeved shirt with

476
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 3: the sleeves rolled up. Some witnesses saw the man get

477
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: in a black four door sports car. Others report a

478
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: similar car driving erratically as it leaves the park area.

479
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 3: Their descriptions are vague, but all have two commonalities. It

480
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: was loud, and there was tape covering the license plate.

481
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 3: Police believe the vehicle may have been traveling on Arkansas

482
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: one seventy or Arkansas two twenty.

483
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: I'm not saying Crosston Holidays wrong. She may very well

484
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 1: be right. She knows the facts like the back of

485
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: her hand. But doctor Dupray, it's coburger all over again.

486
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: Here you've got the guy in this case Devil's Den,

487
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: driving erratically and a really loud car that went out

488
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: on the airwaves Pronto describing him. They composite, but that

489
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: car it got on either Arkansas one seventy or two twenty.

490
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: They have cams, they have life subscrabbers, and if you're

491
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: driving erradically, people are going to notice, just like b K.

492
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger's white Elantra was noticed. I mean, it's a

493
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: dead giveaway. What about that possibility, Doctor Dupree, Absolutely.

494
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 12: Nancy that you're right, that is going to be noticed

495
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 12: by anybody that's in the vicinity. And if they call

496
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 12: that in and then again they do match it up

497
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 12: with the sketch. I think you're right. I think somebody

498
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 12: saw that car. I think somebody saw that being parked

499
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 12: near that barber shop. And I think that is how

500
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 12: they apprehended him right then, and they are.

501
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: Ooh yes, by the barbershop. Brilliant and he was so arrogant,

502
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 1: this guy idiot. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Janey

503
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: Lacey and I say, idiot with full venom, have you

504
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: ever being minding your own business? I don't know if

505
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: you live in an apartment or a house or in

506
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: traffic and you hear and you know what is that

507
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: in some muscle car going by with a screwed up

508
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: muffler and everybody notices it. This guy like Coburger going

509
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: round and around and around the murder scene in his

510
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: white Alantra. Hello, we see you on ring cams. We

511
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 1: can see you. This guy drives off nine amph and thanks,

512
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: nobody will notice, and then parks in front of the salon.

513
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, that says a lot about he thought his

514
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 8: self importance and him living in the little bubble and

515
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 8: not necessarily having self awareness. Right, So when we see

516
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 8: people who are arrogant personality disordered, have a lot of

517
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 8: history of just being self focused and their self importance

518
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 8: is so inflated that these are the types of people

519
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 8: that we will see that are not considered of other people.

520
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 8: And in this situation of him going to the barbershop

521
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 8: and him going going loudly at that is to say

522
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 8: that his self importance is over confidence and just really

523
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 8: thinking that he probably was going to get away with

524
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 8: this crime in this sense, especially when we look at

525
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 8: his self importance and his lack of self awareness.

526
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that doctor Janey. Andrew lewis

527
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: joining US veteran trial lawyer at Circe Law, but former

528
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: felony prosecutor. The more arrogant they are, the better it

529
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: is for the state, because they think that they're not

530
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: going to be noticed, and they're smarter than everybody in

531
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: the room. And in this case, it's little things, Andrew.

532
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: If Carson Holliday is right, and I think she is,

533
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: there's a good chance there's DNA and that there are

534
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 1: video tips. It's other little things. Did I ever tell

535
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: you about the bank robber I prosecuted gets a ton

536
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: of money out of what was then a c Ands bank,

537
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: and you know what got him a little thing. They

538
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: didn't even have video. They had steal photos of the purp,

539
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: but you could see he was slew footed, walk like

540
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: a duck, right, And of course he took the stand,

541
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: Thank you Heaven. He takes a stand and everybody hung

542
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: over the jury rail to watch him walk, and he

543
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: walked up just as slew footed as daffy duck. Okay,

544
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is little things like that car

545
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: pulling up and parking right there forgotten everybody to see

546
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 1: in front of the salon. You hear that, and of

547
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: course you look at it and you think, hey, that

548
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: looks like Demazda. Everybody's looking for Andrea. Idiot? How many

549
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: times can I say idiot in one segment? But what

550
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: about it, Andrea Lewis, You're one hundred percent right.

551
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 10: You know, I think most people who maybe aren't in

552
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 10: the courtroom as much as prosecutors are, maybe some other lawyers,

553
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 10: don't realize how the defendant themselves can really just be

554
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 10: a treasure trove of information, not only in evidence before,

555
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 10: not only in just their statements potentially to police, but

556
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 10: as you noted, in.

557
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: The courtroom their mannerisms.

558
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 10: Because if they're arrogant outside the courtroom, imagine how they

559
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 10: act inside the courtroom and the jurors can pick up

560
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 10: on that and they want to, you know, wipe that

561
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 10: smile right off their face.

562
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's happened here. He just got you.

563
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 10: Know, cocky, He thought he was untouchable. I totally agree

564
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 10: with you and the other guest. I think that we're

565
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 10: going to find here that there's DNA that got you

566
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 10: got his car. It sounds like you have multiple people

567
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 10: on the hiking trail. I would assume that it was

568
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 10: one of the adults that probably got a good look

569
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 10: at him. I remember there were some witness statements when

570
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 10: when the initial reports went out, who did that the

571
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 10: composite which is excellent, so they have a lot and

572
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 10: for all we know, he spoke to police, So I think,

573
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 10: think it'll just.

574
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: Keep getting better. Gots something else for you. Andrea ron

575
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: Bateman was going to do a backflip. But before we

576
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: show him doing his backflip, did you know that Lupida's salon,

577
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 1: According to our very very extensive a Google map search,

578
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: Lupida's Salon is less than thirty minutes away from Devil's Den.

579
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: He didn't even leave the jurisdiction. He's that arrogant and

580
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 1: parks in the front of the salon where the whole

581
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 1: world is looking for his car.

582
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 10: It really it defies common sense.

583
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: And you brought up coburger.

584
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 10: That was the first thing I thought about when we

585
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 10: started hearing these initial reports over the last couple of days,

586
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 10: because imagine a town like this, who everybody's on high alert.

587
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 10: I mean, people across the country are following this case.

588
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 10: Imagine what big news it is locally there. So everybody

589
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 10: in a four door sedan, you know, is getting stared

590
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 10: at when they go to traffic lights and as they

591
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 10: drive around, they're on high alert. The town's on hilert.

592
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 10: So for this man to.

593
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: Just be so stupid that he would.

594
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 10: Stick around not think that anyone would notice him. He's

595
00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 10: sort of a strange looking guy to begin with. I mean,

596
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 10: he stands out is just foolish and fortunately for the family,

597
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 10: he was caught and hopefully will spend the rest of

598
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 10: his life in prison or get the death penalty.

599
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: Overnight, a presser announcing the arrest of the alleged double

600
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: killer snared in the Devil's Den hiking trail murders to

601
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, joining US Farmer Sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland,

602
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 1: who has investigated multiple cases very similar to this. If

603
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: you look at this guy, Okay, he moves to town

604
00:36:54,440 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: to another state after resigning from his last elementary school position,

605
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: where he was quote so close to the students. He

606
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: comes here, apparently doesn't know anybody, takes an out of

607
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: state job, lives all alone, reportedly having left that job

608
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: after claims he had an inappropriate contact. I don't know

609
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: what that means. That can mean calling children on the phone,

610
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: It can mean texting them, it can mean a lot more.

611
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: We don't know that yet. But then would he leap

612
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: from that to trying to publicly nab a little girl

613
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: on a hiking trail? No wonder the mom and dad

614
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: fought to the death.

615
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 4: Okay, So I made another observation of that backpack contraption

616
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 4: that he has he's wearing. First off, that gym bag

617
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 4: is attached to a backpack apparatus, and that backpack apparatus

618
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 4: has what looks to me to be a camelback apparatus

619
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: to it, which means it has water in it and

620
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 4: it comes around. So to me, that looks like the

621
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 4: moron who's wearing long sleeve black shirt and black pants

622
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 4: and a hat in ninety five degree weather is and

623
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 4: for the long run because of hydration. This gives him

624
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 4: hydration to stay out there. So that looks like a

625
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 4: camel backpack to me, with an attachment of a gym

626
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 4: bag to it. So who knows what the heck is

627
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 4: in that drim gym bag. I'd love to see the tape,

628
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 4: the rope, the knives or whatever's in there.

629
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: Would he be that brazen ron?

630
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: Yeah? Well, I mean he's not that smart.

631
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: To try and nab a little girl in front of

632
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: her parents. Well, I mean, for all I know, like

633
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: in Rachel Mooren's case, that perp waited until nobody else

634
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: was around, and Rachel was at a curve, remember a

635
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: curve where people behind couldn't see exactly what was happening ahead,

636
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: and he dragged her off the trail, her mother of five.

637
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: For all I know, the little girls were running ahead

638
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: of mom and dad, which happens frequently, and he saw

639
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: them and didn't see mom and dad and tried to

640
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 1: grab one and the girl's screen. I wonder if that's

641
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: how this whole thing is going to play out.

642
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 2: Run.

643
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know what, he probably had tunnel vision. Your parent.

644
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 4: I'm a parent. You know when the kids are little,

645
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 4: you know, they don't want to stick by mom and

646
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 4: dad's side. They're running ahead, or they're hanging behind, they're

647
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 4: playing on logs or doing what have you, exploring the woods,

648
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 4: And that could have very well happened and been slightly

649
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 4: out of sight of mom and dad. But this guy

650
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 4: had tunnel vision. He knew what he was going after,

651
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 4: probably one of those two little girls or both, and

652
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 4: just was oblivious to mom and Dad's presence.

653
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: You know, Carson Holliday joining us from the US son.

654
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm just we're analyzing how is he tracked, how is

655
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: he caught? Was their DNA? Did the hair have mitochondrial

656
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 1: dnan on? But what it boils down to is this

657
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: mom and dad gave their lives trying to protect the

658
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: little girls. That's the first words we were hearing. They

659
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 1: died trying to protect the girls. And I spun that

660
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: out and try to figure out what does that mean. Okay,

661
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: these two little girls, and I think they've got a

662
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: third sister, will spend the rest of their lives without

663
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: mom and dad and there's no replacement for that. And

664
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: not only that, the survivor guilt. They died trying to

665
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 1: save me. I mean, that's what this is all about.

666
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: And stabbing death is a brutal way to die. It's

667
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: not like you die in your sleep, or you breathe

668
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: in carbon monoxide you don't even know what's happening, or

669
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: you take too many pills and you just drift off

670
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: to sleep. No, it's it's a horrible way to die.

671
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: And if the police are right, Arkansas State Police, this

672
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: guy did it. I bet you anything, Carson. He didn't

673
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: go from zero to one hundred mph in one afternoon, right,

674
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: there's got to be a trail behind him. But what

675
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 1: happens now? Where is he and what's next?

676
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 7: Well, he was booked into jail last night. We obviously

677
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,479
Speaker 7: saw that terrifying mugshot, and police said that he could

678
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 7: appear in court for his arraignment as soon as tomorrow morning.

679
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 7: So we'll really be checking back in and seeing, you know,

680
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 7: how he appears in court, what jail is going to

681
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 7: look like for him. I really can't imagine that it

682
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 7: would be a great experience for him.

683
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: There.

684
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 7: You know, he just ripped two parents away from their

685
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 7: young daughters, and like you said, the young daughters, I mean,

686
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 7: the survivor's gil is just going to be awful, especially

687
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 7: considering that the mom told the little girls to run

688
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 7: and get help, and that they were screaming for help

689
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 7: up until they came along.

690
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 12: To their body.

691
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 7: I mean, it's just horrific.

692
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: Mom and dad had just moved to this jurisdiction, Dad

693
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: starting a brand new job. I think it would have

694
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: been yesterday delivering milk mom a nurse. Well, we know

695
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, Andrea. He is going to have

696
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: a first appearance, which under the law, if you are

697
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: behind mars, you have to be brought into a court,

698
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 1: whether it's a magistrate, a superior court judge, a state

699
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: court judge, and you have to be told why you're

700
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: being charged in open court, no secret proceedings. That's going

701
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: to happen. Then there'll probably be a grand jury indictment

702
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: on two capital murder cases. This is a death penalty jurisdiction.

703
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: Then he'll probably be assigned a public defender with death

704
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: penalty experience. I mean, this is more than one body

705
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: that equals mass murder under the law. That's what's going

706
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: to spin out. Then we're going to spend millions of

707
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: dollars while he sits behind bars. I believe it's Washington

708
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: County jail with people rallying to his aid, women falling

709
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: in love with him and sending him love letters and

710
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:18,439
Speaker 1: special meals, all sorts of things like ahead for him.

711
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: We wait as justice and folds, and we will be

712
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: in court for that arrangement. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,