WEBVTT - The Fever and the Flowers 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:04.720 During most of the Tago scandal, the other two members 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.360 of the group, DJ two Cuts and myth Regin had 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:11.079 been away serving the mandatory military service. This meant that 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.800 Epic High was more or less on hiatus. It also 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.840 meant that Tableau was left to deal with everything on 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:22.440 his own. So in November, he released a solo album, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:33.280 Fevers in Double Cone, San Maybe then that was my 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.160 first and last. I never released another solo album because 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:41.920 um art's not worth that much suffering. I will do 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.640 a song here and there, maybe, But I enjoyed just 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:49.720 doing music with my group because like, I don't want 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.400 music to be that kind of experience for me again. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.240 Music critics were praising the album. It was raw, it 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:07.000 was unfiltered. It was a little like reading from Tablow's journal, 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.160 and you could tell through the music that he was 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.399 going through something terrible. My dad had always said that 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:17.119 he like, he was happy when I came back with 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.559 my solo album and I was starting to make music again, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.400 but he said, like, why did you make such sad songs? 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:36.040 And that kind of stuck with me. So there's sort 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.520 of an aside here. In English, Tableau's album is called 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.880 Fever's End, but The Korean title is yell good, which 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:48.240 literally translates out to fever flowers. That doesn't really make 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:51.120 any sense in English, but it's a phrase the Korean 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.440 people use for the spots in your skin that show 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.720 up when your fever is broken and it's at its 0:01:55.760 --> 0:02:00.120 absolute worst, and in a sort of poetic sense, it's 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.320 like a sign that things can only get better from there. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.920 And that was the kind of hope that Tableau's dad 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.400 had for him, that everything he was feeling now was 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:11.880 a sign that the worst was behind him, that he 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.640 should move on from Tanjanio and be happy. But in 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.320 a matter of months, the man who told him that 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:26.040 his father suddenly passed away. What was the funeral like? 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:36.280 Child going often Jeeneen myth Regin the other rapper and 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:44.720 epic high I wouldn't even chere. M m Mithra said 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.560 that he had never gone to a funeral of a 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.880 close friend before. He used to see Tablow's father a lot, 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:53.480 and he wanted to comfort Tableau, but he didn't really 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.120 know how. This was also the first time in a 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.120 long time that all three members of the group we're 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.079 in one room together. What was he like when you 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:08.000 got there? Oh? Say Song him, didn't go touch it 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.640 on your jaw. Two Cuts, the DJ of the group, 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:17.040 topped up hill. I'm catching motan done hung you know. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:22.880 Dot two Cut said that he was mad at himself. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.120 Epic High had always been there for each other, but 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:28.800 his being away in the military meant that he couldn't, 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:32.840 and he felt like that had put a burden on Tableau. 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:36.880 And this is real. I've seen footage of the funeral. 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:40.640 Mithra and two cuts or buy Tableau's side. They helped 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.680 carry the casket. Tableau's wife and his mom are also there, 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:50.440 and everyone looks incredibly sad, But the way Tableau looked 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:55.000 was different. People had seen Tableau sad before he cried 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.800 in the documentary when he went to Stanford. It was 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:05.080 something beyond just sadness. He looks numb. My dad died 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:09.600 of this and I don't even know what this is. 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:17.760 H they killed him, I'm sure of that. Two Cuts 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.400 and Mithra agree with Tableau that this death was because 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.200 of what Tagno had done. They wanted to give Tableau 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.400 time to heal from everything. Music was the last thing 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:34.000 on their minds. Right after my dad passed away, uh 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.680 like two or three days after I went into the 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.159 studio and made an album with Epecai. It's hard to 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.479 imagine the same three friends who were just at a 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:45.480 funeral going into a studio days later to make music. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.719 But for Tableau, this was the only way he knew 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.719 how to cope. Epicchai was finally back in the studio 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.640 working on music again, doing the thing that brought them 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.400 together in the first place, and it got them to 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.359 this point. Then a few months later the album dropped 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:18.040 and it was not what people expected. The album was 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:22.000 called it was a full one from fevers In and 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.600 that was on purpose. So those two albums coupled together 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:32.320 are like a perfect like documentation of like what must 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:35.919 be going through someone's head when they experienced something like 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:39.520 really difficult and then try everything possible to like escape 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:47.000 it or to avoid it. One Tableau and Epic High 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.640 tried to bottle his dad's optimism and reclaim the time 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.960 and the energy and the youth that they lost in 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:58.120 that scandal. But moving on wasn't going to be so easy, 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:03.240 partially because the conspiracy had become bigger than Tableau. Even 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.400 though the Tajanio Forum was now relatively small, their model 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:12.440 for organizing followers was spreading Tajanio didn't get what they wanted, 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.880 but they did set a blueprint of how a small 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.839 rumor can start online and transform into a global movement. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.920 It also became a test case for the legacy of 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.120 our lives online, how we all have to reckon with 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.720 whatever we do lasting forever on the Internet. And maybe, 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.520 if we've been paying attention, tableau story could have acted 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:45.839 as a warning sign for all of us of FIP hop. 0:06:55.040 --> 0:07:00.440 What my Name? I can writing my book saw the 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:13.640 first time the mask Yeah from Vice and I heart 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:20.360 this is authentic. I'm XR Thomas Episode eight Fever Flowers. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.600 When Epic Hies album came out in October of two 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:34.760 thousand twelve, Tableau's fans and his record label, we're not happy. 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.720 Our core fans hated it. They say that it's the 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:42.280 worst album I've ever made, and coming right after Fever's end, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.680 they can't believe it right, they can't believe it's the 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:59.080 same person. Juan and count two Cuts says the fans 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.680 didn't like their album because it was different from what 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.280 people were expecting before this. Epic High was known for 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.360 being subversive. This is the group that got banned from 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:12.280 radio airplay for lyrics criticizing society to directly I think 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.840 we're just reckless. They had lyrics about religion and depression 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.040 and things that everyday Korean kids were going through, but 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:22.920 was none of that. I didn't want to talk about 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.720 anything introspective because I had so many things that would, 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.960 you know, may possibly destroy me again, right if I 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.480 started thinking so all all these songs are just really 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.920 really keen pop almost. I think I just kind of 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.079 wanted to avoid it. But I also had to make 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.320 that album to survive. Part of that survival meant getting 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:48.959 back to public life slowly. At first, Tableau stayed away 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.439 from any deep interviews and he was really hesitant about 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.600 live TV. If you did see him on TV, it 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.240 was almost definitely a prerecorded performance. He still wasn't sure 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.240 if he could handle the pressure, and he really wasn't 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.080 interested in going back to being all over the media again. 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:10.680 But then by Sheer accident, things changed. Epic High had 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:16.040 just started doing concerts again, and in China we were 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.280 We did a show and afterwards we were having a 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:22.880 drink and I tried to jump kick Mithra I slipped 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:27.200 on an ice cube, landed on my shoulder, instantly broke it. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.800 Oh my god, very bad, like just bones shattered. Tableau 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.360 was rushed to a nearby hospital and they put him 0:09:34.360 --> 0:09:38.000 on some pretty serious pain killers, and then at that moment, 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.760 out of all times, he got a proposal. And then 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:47.280 we're rolling me into the surgery and my managers like, 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:49.720 you know, this show came in and I'm like, do 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.680 you have to choose now? Like I don't know what 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.080 you're saying. He's like, we have to give him an 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.079 answer like now, and I was like, okay, whatever, Yeah, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.120 I just do it. And then I came out and 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:17.240 I had agreed to do this show, and that is 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.720 how Tableau ended up on the Return of Superman. This 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.959 was a reality TV show where celebrity dads are left 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:27.160 alone with their kids for a couple of days while 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.240 their wives take some time off. The whole premise is 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.400 loki kind of sexist, but the idea was that dads 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.880 would probably struggle with basic household tasks or talking to 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.800 their kids, and so it would be funny. But for 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:43.640 Tableau it didn't quite work out that way because he 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:53.320 has a really good relationship with his daughter Lan. The 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.400 show was a big step for Tableau because he still 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.240 wasn't really comfortable with being famous, but having his family 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:05.160 there made things easier, and actually his interaction with his 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.480 daughter ended up being one of the most memorable parts 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:12.719 of the show. There's this one scenes from how to 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.319 showing off her stuffed animals. She's got horses and zebra, 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.600 and she's explaining to Tableau that each one of them 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:24.600 represents a different member of the family. So Tableau asks, okay, 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.760 is the entire family there, and had says yes, and 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:33.320 Tableau says, well, where's the grandpa. The camera hands over 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:38.679 to Hat and she says, Grandpa, Grandpa's gone to heaven, 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:44.680 and there's this silence, and then, totally unprompted, how It 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:52.160 gets up and hugs her dad Carboy. This show brought 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.560 in a whole different audience. People who might not be 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.199 interested in Tableau's music or even his grades at Stanford, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:05.719 interested in him as a dad. I didn't show my 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:11.720 daughter's face for like three years. I was very private after, 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:14.680 you know, sheltering them for so long and trying to 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.960 hide them. And it's weird watching this show because you 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.040 realize how much time it passed. Remember the first time 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.000 that Tableau realized something was wrong, was when Tao member 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.480 started tweeting at him when he posted a picture from 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.560 the hospital when his baby was born. That baby was 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:35.200 now walking around and talking on TV, and Tableau was 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:38.200 now in his thirties and he was just straight up 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:44.920 a different person. I often feel like we are always 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:51.280 watching celebrities suffer something and get crushed by it. We 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.320 don't ever really get a chance to see like chapter 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.559 two of that life, at least in my mind. Dedicated 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.920 in my career too to showing that, to showing how 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:11.960 there is possibility of a great chapter two if you 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:17.600 don't let chapter one be the end, right, and really, 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.439 this chapter two of Tableau's career looks pretty good. Epic 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.439 HAIs celebrated being around for a decade. Over the next 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.080 few years, they went on tour and they even made 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.600 it back to the States. They not only hit up 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.760 South By Southwest, but they got on stage of Coachella. 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:39.000 Tableau stopped going on the Return of Superman, but then 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.440 he joined a different program, a rap competition show called 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.040 Show Me the Money What. Tableau was a producer throughout 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.680 their career. Epic High has released ten studio albums, and 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:53.480 in that time they've collaborated with some major artists not 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:59.160 just in Korea but from all over the place. Baby Joe, Joey, Badass, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:08.560 Eric now dumbfounded Galian. The list just goes on. In 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.080 the relatively short history of Korean hip hop, Tableau and 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:15.680 Epic High are now elder statesmen, and their music has 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:19.640 been massively influential for the younger generation of Korean musicians, 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.120 including what might possibly be the biggest band in the world, 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:39.680 BTS Base bts IS, RM and Sugar have both spoken 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:42.960 pretty openly over the years about being inspired by Epic High, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.400 and even though their group is known for K pop, 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.120 they are influenced by lyrical hip hop that directly speaks 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.880 to broader issues, which is what Epic Hai has been 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.280 doing since day one, and Yungi and RM have said 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.600 that Epic High's song Fly is the thing that made 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.320 them want to try wrap. But if you ask Tableau 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.760 about all this, he's a little shy. I'm sure they 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:09.560 would have discovered music, they're obviously um in love with it, 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.960 and they would have become musicians regardless. It's still gonna 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.360 be wild to hear that, though. I think what's most flattering, though, 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:22.960 is that their lyrical content and what they're trying to 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.720 do through music, just trying their best to be like 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.960 a good influence. I'm certain that now kids are listening 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.680 to bts the way they were listening to epic Ai right, 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:42.160 and sheer amount of kids has exponentially grown, and one 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.600 of those kids are gonna do something cool too. Tableau 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.720 and epic Hi have come a long way from couch 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:52.640 surfing and struggling to pay for dinner. They have a 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.240 real legacy now, even if Tableau doesn't quite know what 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.240 that means for him personally. And also, like I've feel 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.520 like hip hop and Korea is so young that it's 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:08.280 just weird to already like have our mount rushmore. You know, 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:33.360 we'll be right. Back when Tablo got started in Korea, 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.200 hip hop was really niche. But now, more than a 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:40.200 decade later, Korean hip hop is just part of the 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.360 normal mainstream landscape. In a lot of ways, the industry 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.680 has caught up to what people like Tableau were already doing. 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.600 Back when he was getting started, people in the music 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.160 industry might have called Tableau a quote unquote bedroom producer. 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.800 This was a word that people use for artists who 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:59.000 were making tracks on cheap equipment or just their laptops. 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:03.520 But nowadays the term is almost irrelevant because just about 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.639 every producer is starting out from their bedroom. And we 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.359 now take it for granted that thanks to social media, 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:17.080 anyone could be a star. How many guys and I 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.080 for a little time in Canada and major artists have 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.600 adapted to that too. Musicians and artists have started to 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.160 open up their lives on social media, and we're talking 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:31.200 seven coverage people cooking or doing their makeup or whatever. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:36.399 He I just wanted to pop in and say hello, 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:42.560 I am live. It is bide minded, live with money, alright, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.040 So let me cut this cucumber. Okay, I'm looking at 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.160 the d MS, but I actually can't because it goes 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:52.160 so fast because you guys are so amazing. There used 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:55.359 to be like this distance between the artists and the fans, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.399 Professor hedging Lee Again. The artists didn't feel like it 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.240 was their job to use social media up to broadcast 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.440 everything that they're doing or to like express their feelings. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.959 They would use the social media as a tool for 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:11.280 promotional purposes. But now we're seeing the artists using these 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.199 tools to just casually talk with the fans, not necessarily 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.520 inviting a conversation, but at least kind of revealing their 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.200 private self a little bit, and I think that has 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.040 allowed the fans to kind of feel like they're getting 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.359 to know the artists at a more personal level. But 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.400 that amount of access and interaction also means that fans 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:37.080 can criticize artists directly like never before. And today we're 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.760 counting down our picks for the top ten celabs who 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:43.040 are constantly getting canceled. Christie he Can also recently try 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.639 to show off the results of her eyebrow transplant, and 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:49.040 her critics were appalled by her rich people problems. This 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:53.560 this is a serious situation. I'm just hard to al 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:58.399 Ovid has been dead since two thousand and three, and 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.159 the fact that Korean artists are now more global than 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:05.280 ever means they're being exposed to new demands from fans 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:08.960 in other countries to use their platform for something. We're 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.120 not satisfied with just art. We want to know who 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:16.200 these artists really are. This might be weird and other 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.560 genres of music, but within the culture of hip hop 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:23.400 that's always kind of been there, It's just more serious now. 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:27.800 I feel like that's one of the tough things about 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:33.080 hip hop, right We value maybe above all else being real, 0:19:33.480 --> 0:19:37.600 being authentic, But what counts for quote unquote real is 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:42.880 actually fairly rigid, what kind of real that we are 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:46.399 interested in. There, there's a real way to dress, you know, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:48.480 there's an authentic way to address it is an authentic 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.480 way to talk. And if you don't do that, then 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.560 it's just who is this nerd? Who is this outsider? 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.280 And so you should adjust yourself accordingly. But then the 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.600 flip of that is if you're adjusting yourself, that's not real. Yeah. 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.479 And also the concept of real just constantly changes. And 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.760 this isn't just like just in Korea. Like remember when 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:13.280 Kanye came out and how that was like the moment 0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.360 where we had to like the world had to decide 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:21.679 are you going to be for or are you going 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:27.080 to be for Kanye? Because in all ways they were different. 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.600 And then Kanye happened and everyone just started, you know, 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:39.080 wearing like skinny jeans, And when that happened, I think 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:44.800 a lot of Korean kids kind of felt like, oh, yes, 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:52.240 because now Kanye is dressing like us. Really yeah, And 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:55.680 there's something really interesting about the way that Tableau talks 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.080 about culture shifting over time, about who gets to be 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.119 real and what authentic is, because I think in some ways, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.359 hip hop might be the one culture that makes us 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:11.399 ask all these uncomfortable questions. Hip hop is perhaps the 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:17.160 one genre in which authenticity is at a premium, Professor 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.200 Que Tugley, if it if it even comes across as 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:25.200 quote unquote fake or not real or inauthentic, you're done. Yeah, 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.919 you will not be hip hop. Yeah, questionable. Authenticity always matters. 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.280 Where do you draw the line between appreciation or learning 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:38.800 from our hybridization and appropriation? It is very difficult to answer. 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:46.120 But if you only like imitate something that original hip 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:51.719 hop musicians are doing without understanding why they are doing 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:57.080 or without showing your own interpretation, I may consider it 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:01.840 as a cultural appropriation because if you if I call 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:05.359 it as a cultural hybridization, it means that you understand 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:09.639 the different culture and try to mix with the culture, 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:13.560 with the different culture with your own to create something 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:17.080 different from your original culture as well as the original 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.639 hip hop music. For example, there's a reason why I 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.680 waited to the last episode before even mentioning cultural appropriation. 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:26.359 It's not that I think the topic needs to be avoided. 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.960 It's that there's something particularly American about the way that 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.480 we tend to ask questions about whether or not somebody's 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.679 done enough homework to properly understand the culture. Topics like 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.439 culture and authenticity, these are difficult things to talk about, 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.520 and in theory, this is where the Internet should come in. 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.919 Thanks the message boards and social media, we have a 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.280 convenient way to have conversations where at the very least 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.040 you can learn how other people think. But as we 0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:59.000 saw with Tajnyo, an online conversation can also quickly become 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:02.119 an online mob. I think what was interesting about the 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:07.000 taching your case is that people were using the internet 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:11.080 asked a way to like uncover truth or whatever truth 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:14.240 that they had in mind right and thinking that that 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:18.320 was their way of pursuing justice. And I wonder if 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:21.480 that's what we're seeing with so many like fringe groups 0:23:21.560 --> 0:23:24.800 in the United States. Fringe groups are organizing in a 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:28.800 pretty similar model to the way that Tajanio did on Reddit, forums, 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:34.879 telegram channels, discords. They're demanding the truth from politicians, the media, 0:23:35.280 --> 0:23:39.040 and really anyone that they believe is lying. And just 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:43.080 like with Tajano, as those ideas become more mainstream, it 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.720 becomes harder to call them fringe groups there, you know, 0:23:47.320 --> 0:23:53.719 just groups with questions and alternative facts. And as they 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.200 continue to spread misinformation, they gain more followers. And look, 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:01.119 it's probably a little stream to say that we can 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.760 draw a straight line from Taijanyo to Q and on, 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:08.800 But both groups share not only a mission, but a methodology. 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.840 A distributed, decentralized group with anonymous leaders who can be 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:17.800 swapped in or out at any time, that relentlessly pursues 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.639 their version of justice and truth. Truth is such a 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:25.199 subjective thing right now. My truth might not be the 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:27.760 same as yours. So if that's the world that we're 0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:30.640 living in, then how can we survive together? How can 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:34.399 we coexist? This question from Professor Hedging sticks with me, 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:38.080 because listen, it's easy to look at the conspiracy theories 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.000 like Taijano and Q and on and look at the 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:45.480 frankly bonkers research that they're doing and laugh and say, yo, 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:48.200 these people, they lost their minds. Just forget about them 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:51.639 and just move on. But the reality is is that 0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:56.439 these people are victims of misinformation. And that's not me 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:58.640 telling you that you have to feel sorry for them. 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:02.800 I'm just saying we have to live with these people, because, 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:06.800 if anything, the story of Tajano is a warning that 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:10.480 these pursuits of truth and justice can start to warp 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:14.840 our ability to understand each other as people. Tablet was 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.840 just one of the first people to experience with the future. 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:22.560 Was gonna look like I was in the hospital because 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:26.280 of my dad. And this mom and her daughter, like 0:25:26.400 --> 0:25:30.119 her middle school, high school daughter are walking by, and 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:32.760 this the mom just comes straight to my face as 0:25:32.800 --> 0:25:36.000 if I'm not an actual person but maybe like a 0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:40.200 character or an avatar. Uh, And right to my face 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:43.000 says this guy. This isn't this the guy that lied 0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:46.520 about his school, like right to my face, to her daughter. 0:25:47.640 --> 0:25:55.320 And these things were happening constantly. Jesus, you know all 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:59.680 the articles then and after that have described this as 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:05.480 like an online phenomenon, right as problems with the Internet, 0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:10.119 like as if fake news is confined to this like 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:15.200 digital space, and it certainly is not. It is so 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:19.800 connected to the real world. The longer we neglect that, 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.880 the harder it will become to do anything about it. 0:26:26.440 --> 0:26:28.399 It is hard to put into words what exactly we 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:31.960 witnessed today because we have not seen this before. Thousands 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:41.920 storming the Capitol after a rally with President Trump sucking 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:45.040 he man, glad to see you guys. You guys are 0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:52.080 fucking patriots. Look at this guy's got blood. And maybe, 0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:56.840 just maybe, if we've been paying attention at the very least, 0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:00.280 we wouldn't have been so unprepared when missing from Nation 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:05.480 grew to extremism and spilled offline into real life consequences. 0:27:16.960 --> 0:27:20.240 It's now been more than ten years since Tableau's life 0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:24.640 was changed forever by Tajanio. When you talk about sort 0:27:24.680 --> 0:27:29.040 of the effects on you, you sort of seemed to 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:33.480 be more or less okay with that, and even when 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:36.400 it was happening, it seemed like you'd sort of accepted, Okay, 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:39.639 my my career is over, okay, And then when it 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:44.240 spread to your family, that was when it was okay. Now, 0:27:44.720 --> 0:27:49.280 like fighting this. You also told me about how it 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.239 affected your brother. What what kind of conversations do you 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:55.960 have with your brother now? I mean ten years on 0:27:56.560 --> 0:27:59.360 and we don't talk about this really, Yeah, we don't 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:02.680 talk all. Lot of it just brings up too many 0:28:02.760 --> 0:28:10.800 different things, you know. Yeah, after my dad passed away, honestly, um, 0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:14.120 our family has not been the same. We don't talk 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:19.240 that much anymore. It's just yeah, because it just brings 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.040 up too much mhm, especially in this case, we just 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:28.800 don't discuss it. It's just it's connected to too many ah, 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:34.320 too many different bad things. I guess, so we are, 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:39.160 you know, we don't talk that much anymore because there's 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.800 nothing we can talk about to avoid talking about this. 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:51.160 You know, it's our biggest shared memory, which sucks, but 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.520 it's impossible for us to not talk about this, so 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:02.280 we just talk about stupid things, you know, irrelevant and 0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:07.160 possib things. I guess. I don't think I've ever talked 0:29:07.200 --> 0:29:10.880 about this with my brother and my sister. I've talked 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:13.440 about it with my sister, she was sort of detached, 0:29:14.240 --> 0:29:16.360