WEBVTT - Elon’s Brand Dilemma 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:08.559 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:09.520 we have a new star. 0:00:10.520 --> 0:00:14.680 A star is born Elon up On mars Juson Kennemy. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.520 He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:21.040 Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:21.800 I feel for the guy. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.319 I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.440 But those two percent that are nasty, they are I'll 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:29.840 pay in four post. 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.280 We were meant for great things in the United States 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:34.560 of America, and Elon reminds. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.760 Us of that we don't have a fourth branch of 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.159 governments called Elon Musk. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.120 Welcome to Elon Ang, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.400 It's Tuesday, March eighteenth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. Now 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.640 this week has mercifully given us a bit of a 0:00:56.680 --> 0:01:00.440 break from the non stop barrage of Elon Indoze news. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:03.560 But that doesn't mean things are quiet in the Musk Empire. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.399 There's been all sorts of news on the SpaceX front, 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.480 and we'll start off there, and then Amanda Mall will 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:12.560 join us to talk about a terrific piece you just 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.160 pen for BusinessWeek about the epic brand destruction. Elon has 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.200 unleased at Tesla to talk about everything SpaceX. We have 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:26.800 our two regulars, Max Chafkin and Dana Hall. Maxilo to you, Hello, David, Dana, 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:27.959 how are you hello? 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:28.280 Hello? 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.760 Now, I know that I often say on this show, 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:34.720 I know nothing about what we're about to talk about, 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.720 but I truly and when it comes to SpaceX, I 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.080 truly know nothing about this. So you guys are going 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.880 to help me like you're going to help our listeners. Dana, 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:47.680 the stranded astronauts up there at the space station are 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.960 coming home courtesy of Elon. Musk tell us about it. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.240 Well, First of all, the phrase stranded is something that 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.040 NASA has kind of pushed back on. 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.000 They're stranded, they're stranded and miserable. 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.600 I mean, I know that journalists love to say that 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.320 they're stranded and they're stuck, but the truth is that 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.440 they're doing research and they're there because they want to 0:02:08.480 --> 0:02:10.920 be there. And yes, they were supposed to come home 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:14.920 on a Boeing Starliner craft. NASA made the decision not 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.400 to send them home on the Boeing craft, So now 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:21.079 they are coming home on a SpaceX Dragon capsule. And 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.160 this is a big win for Elon because it kind 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.040 of plays into this narrative that quote unquote SpaceX is 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.720 rescuing the astronauts, and yeah, I mean they are. They 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.519 are bringing them home, and that's a huge win for Elon. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.959 And SpaceX has a brand as like the most reliable 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:38.080 way to get to and from the space station. 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.600 NASA has, as Dana is saying, a reliable way to 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.760 get astronauts to and from the International Space Station it 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.919 is SpaceX. It is also and separately attempting to find 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.160 a second way. Now that is very annoying to Elon 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.280 Musk since he essentially has a monopoly on this business. 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:59.519 So as they've been developing this, Musk has been at 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:03.640 pains to spin this as some kind of huge failure, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.200 and it is. It is definitely a setback for Boeing. 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.440 But NASA could have sent these astronauts home much sooner 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:12.600 if it had wanted to. It chose not to, And 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:14.640 as Dan is saying, they chose to be there. 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.840 Okay, fine, so you guys insist that they're not stranded, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.320 but they are. We can agree that they are coming home. 0:03:21.320 --> 0:03:21.560 They're not. 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.920 They're they're traveling now, They're they're hurtling through. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.320 As we speak through the void of the sound over 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.000 there that I hear, is that the sound of them 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:31.079 hurtling through space. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.880 By the time listeners hear this podcast, they may splash ocean. 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.480 Yeah, so the astronauts are on their way home. I mean, 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.000 they are in the capsule and they are expected to 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.920 splash down, like Tuesday evening. They will splash down Tuesday. 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.680 Around the time this podcast splashes down as you're listening. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.760 A splashdown is is a term that everybody loves to 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.080 use with these things. Right, there's no other way to 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.000 come back from the space station if you're not you know, 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:56.160 beyond splashing again. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:58.320 Okay, David, you know you realize it's because they are 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.720 landing in the ocean. Like it's cost. 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:07.400 I'm aware of that, but is in every case it's 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:14.160 separate news. Starlink, a key division of SpaceX, is getting 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.960 a competitor or Max Competitive Tours. Tell us about it, all. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.680 Right, Yeah, so there's a bunch of stuff happening around Starlink, 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:26.000 and in particular around Starlink. Competitors is a new spinoff 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:31.159 from Alphabet, the parent company of Google, which is called. 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:32.719 T A A RX. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.760 I guess a titara is how you say, I don't 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.040 know how to say it. It is a high speed 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:43.080 internet company. It does not use satellites. It uses I'm 0:04:43.080 --> 0:04:45.240 not etting this up. It uses lasers that are mounted 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:49.560 on towers. Apparently they can send high speed data, very 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.120 long rate a laser, essentially like fiber optic cables, but 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.560 in the sky. And this is being spun as a 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.719 potential Starlink competitor. This is the thing that other technology 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.200 company have talked about. It is not a direct competitor 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:07.000 starting What it is is another potential way to deliver 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.599 high speed internet to people in rural areas, which is 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.640 like the main use case for Starlink. Now, I want 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:15.760 to say two things. One is this is like very 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.920 very speculative. The company, according to the report in the Verge, 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.240 which is the one that we all saw, has like 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:26.280 two dozen employees. Google has been trying to find ways 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.080 to provide broadband internet to rural areas for a very 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:29.640 long time, with. 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:30.520 Very little success. 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.480 This actually had its roots in their balloon Internet program, 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.320 which you may or may not remember. 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:36.039 I don't. 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:37.479 That did not end well. 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:39.800 This is not how like you know you're going to 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.680 log on to Facebook and you need to. 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:45.000 Said that the Balloon Internet program. 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.080 Did not want Now I want to say this though 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.240 this is again very speculative, not worth banking on at 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:52.760 the moment. 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.040 That said, but a window into something. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.440 Well, it shows you number one, that there are multiple 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.000 ways for companies to go after Starlink. We often talk 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.080 about Elon Musk kind of having a monopoly, right because 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:06.880 he has a lot of satellites, but he doesn't have 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.160 a monopoly on Internet access because there are other ways 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.000 to deliver the Internet. You can get your Internet via 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.920 fiber rocket cable, You can get your Internet via cell 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.240 phone tower. You could even conceivably get your Internet via 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:19.520 some crazy laser. 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.400 Things that you know. I don't know, David, make sure 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:23.400 I don't totally understand. 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:23.760 Now. 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.599 The other thing is there are other Starlink competitors. There 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:28.960 are a couple of companies that are sort of legacy 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:33.120 satellite providers that use older technology but also provide satellite 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.680 Internet service. There is also an EU company. Yeah you 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:42.800 tellt Yeah, I think it's like Eutel Sat maybe really 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:44.720 probably the most literal name. 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.040 For a for a company in history. 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:52.120 It is a EU based satellite provider and this company 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:53.240 is getting a lot of buzz. 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:55.120 Stock has been soaring. 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.200 Yeah, it's it's been up like five times over the 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:00.200 last month. Over the past month. There is there is 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.280 thought that Europeans may, especially European governments, may prefer to 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.960 do business with a European space company at a time when, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:13.480 of course Donald Trump is you know, taking this nationalistic 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.120 pose and Elon Musk is so closely. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:16.560 Allied with him. 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:20.880 So there are these other options, and I think seeing 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:25.080 these other options materialize kind of hints at the ways 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.280 that this bet that Elon Musk has made on Donald 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:32.160 Trump could go bad. His businesses, while very strong, have vulnerabilities. 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.800 So, Dana, we've obviously seen it again and again and 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.000 again in enormous numbers when it comes to Tesla, that 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.760 old customer base walking away from the company, and we're 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.680 going to talk about that at length again in the 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.440 back half of the show. Maybe some signs that a 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:51.280 little bit of that now happening potentially in the starlink space. 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.840 The Guardian, I should point out, had a piece that 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.800 came out yesterday or today citing some people who said 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.920 I've given up my Starlink. I would have just myself 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.560 slapped the bumper sticker on my Starlink and kept and 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.240 kept using it. But maybe some signs emerging there. 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.440 Sure, I mean, you know, I think what's funny is 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:13.679 that for so long, I mean in the early days, 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.000 like Tesla was the scrappy upstart taking on legacy Atto, 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:21.440 and you know, Starlink was the scrappy telecom company taking 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.480 on the big incumbents. And now that Elon is who 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:27.040 he is, doing what he's doing with the Trump administration, 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.720 the only way that consumers feel like they have political 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.920 agency to kind of fight back is to you know, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:37.080 slap a bumper sticker or give up their product. I 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:39.760 mean that said, most people buy products because they like 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:42.319 the products, Like, yeah, you know, equally, there are a 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.560 lot of people that are probably upset with Jeff Bezos. 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.280 I'm not seeing people like vandalizing Whole Foods or canceling 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:52.320 Amazon in the big numbers that they're you know, virtue 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.080 signaling about their Tesla's. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.079 I just don't think right the rejection is quite is 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:57.840 quite a strong, but that is a good The virtue 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.920 signaling term max is important because Guardian article like actually 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:03.960 came out I misspoke, it came out on Sunday. 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:10.160 The lead image is like a Scottish folks. It's not 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.200 exactly like he's barefoot on the beach. There must be 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:14.800 like three or four other people like. 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:16.960 This is not necessarily a huge court. 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.920 I do want to say, though, there are other customers 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:21.720 that are rethinking Starlink. 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:23.840 You know, we're seeing reports out of Italy. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.720 Remember we talked some weeks ago about the deal that 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:30.480 Starlink was in talks with Georgia Maloney and the Italian 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:35.320 government to provide. So there's now increasing opposition in Italy 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.880 over this deal. It is not a done deal and 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:41.400 so and we're seeing you know, the opposition parties in 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.960 Italy saying, hey, we should do this with a European player, 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.439 not with space A. You tell set, well, yeah, assumably 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.160 it isn't just virtue signaling, right like there are strategic 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.839 reasons why countries might not want to know it has 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:54.240 it can't. 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.360 It certainly can't be virtue signaling in the same way 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.400 it is with the Tesla, because who the hell knows 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:00.120 what your internet is? 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:00.200 Is? 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:02.480 You know how you're and so it's truly you must 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:04.920 really when you get rid of it, you must truly 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:08.840 be concerned about your association with the company. If you're 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.840 Italy or as a customer, you'd be like you must 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.880 be just like I can't signal to my neighbors and 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.080 my friends and he you know, I can't send them 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:19.280 a message. But man, for me as a consumer, I 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:21.040 just really don't want to give him any money. That's 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:22.480 what it has to be. And we'll just see ultimately 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.960 how beyond that, Scotsman, how big that universe is. And 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.840 then over the weekend, Dana, we had an ex from 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:34.600 Elon claiming that the first SpaceX mission to Mars is 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:36.200 going to happen next year. 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:38.840 What say you, Well, he's been saying that for a 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.240 long time, so that's not really new. What was new 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.000 was that that Optimists would be on board, right, So 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:46.360 the idea is that the Optimist is going to Mars 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:47.160 before the humans. 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.480 You don't need a life support system, right, true. 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:52.520 So it just sort of shows once again how like 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.160 all of his products and all everything that he's doing, 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.720 it's all in the service of Mars, right Like the 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.920 boring company tunnels are all about Mars. Optimist is gonna 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.120 work on Mars, and he's excited about it because you know, 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.520 he's now got this relationship with Trump, Trump wants to 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:10.280 go to Mars by the end of his first term. 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.240 I mean, this is the whole enchilada. It's all about Mars. 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.520 I think there's a second reason why he's talking about 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:19.160 I mean, I take Danna's point that, you know, freelon 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.679 Mars is the whole enchilada. But also, and we'll get 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.199 to this in the next segment, Tesla stock is collapsing 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.800 right now. Optimist is a Tesla product. He has used 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.080 SpaceX in the past to provide marketing Tesla. That's what 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.640 that's in part what this is. Right Saying he's gonna 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.520 send Optimists to Mars is a way to potentially remind 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.760 Tesla investors like I've got this really awesome robot called Optimists, 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.360 and you know it's gonna be worth thirty trillion dollars 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:48.880 or whatever. The other thing I want to say, there 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:53.120 is no Mars program. Not only does does starship does 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.760 it not appear to be technically ready or anywhere near 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.080 ready to do the things that Elon is saying. 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.040 NASA hasn't agreed to that. The thing that starts. 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:05.720 But being under Trump, if Musk really wants to go 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.520 to Mars asap is NASA. I'm not going to say yes. 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.160 I think we assume that Donald Trump will be in 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.720 favor of that. I don't think we know how the 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:16.640 politics of that are going to work. There are other 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:20.959 constituents here, there are other defense contractors, there are voters 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.280 in the states where those defense contractors operate, on many 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.559 which are red states. There's going to be a lot 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.520 of political opposition to like taking money away from one 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.760 NASA program and putting in another. And there would also 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.040 be a lot of opposition to just like taking money 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.920 away from what like Social Security employees or something. I mean, 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:44.920 I'm not saying cut, I'm gonna say from not saying recipients. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.400 I'm saying they are cutting a huge, huge numbers of 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.160 staff from the Social Security Administration and many other administrations. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:54.200 And one of the things that Elon Musk has said 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.040 he thinks that we should do with that money is 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:57.959 put into a MARS program. So, like, I don't know 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.600 why that's far fetched. That is that is kind of like. 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.480 What he said he in that case, and that is 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:05.600 a political a tough sell politically. 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:05.800 I'll say. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.400 Now, the other thing is they would need to make 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.360 this starship do a lot more things than it has 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.120 already done. I mean, when Elon Musk went on the 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:17.839 Rogan podcast, there was a lengthy discussion about the heat 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:22.120 shield on the Starship spacecraft, and it is not working yet. 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.360 It is a novel design that they have not figured out. 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.480 And that is among several problems that are sort of novel, 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:33.000 including attempting to refuel this thing in space. There's a 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.840 lot of questions about how many launches it'll take. 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:41.160 Will there will be some sort of refueling vessel waiting 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.840 for it up in space something. 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.959 That is the plan. So so he's going to launch 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:46.360 the just to get to the Moon. 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:48.640 The plan is he's going to launch Starship, and then 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:52.160 there are going to be a succession of many fuel launch. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.520 Like water stations in a marathon, like. 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:56.160 Water stations in America. 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.679 You know how tricky that can be. Grab the water 0:13:58.760 --> 0:13:59.200 to watch. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.280 Sometimes it gets dropped on you. But and in space 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.920 sometimes the fuel just gets boiled off and disappears. So 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.800 there are lots of issues. Again, it's not not to 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:09.960 say that these issues are going to be impossible. It's 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.400 just like acting like this is a done deal either 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:16.880 technically or politically, is you know, bordering on delusional. 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:25.360 Okay, let's move on to Tesla. Okay. We're now joined 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.600 by Amanda mal a writer for Business Week. Amanda, thanks 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.040 for joining us, Thanks for having me, Amanda. You just 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.480 published today a terrific piece about Tesla and the brand 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.720 destruction that Elon has wrought there, and there was a 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.560 line that really jumped out at me and I wanted 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.680 to ask you about it. You wrote that it's nearly 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.440 impossible to think of a comparable example of a company 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.800 detonating its own brand. Tell us about that. We've debated 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.720 this a little bit on the show before, and we 0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:58.920 were wondering what kind of historical comparisons there were, and 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.960 you found none. 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.560 Yeah, Like, I've written about consumerism and branding and marketing 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.360 for a long time, and what Tesla is doing with 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.520 its customer base and its market positioning and it's branding 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.720 right now is something that you know, I sort of 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.840 stumped me for an analog in the history of consumption, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.600 because you know, brands pivot all the time. They seek 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.280 to change their markets, they seek to expand their markets, 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:27.280 they seek to find new kinds of customers. They do 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.600 that in all sorts of ways, but very, very rarely 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:35.400 is that done through telling almost their entire existing customer 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:41.160 base that like not own yes to essentially go, you know, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.680 f themselves. And that is quite literally what Elon has 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.520 done with the current Tesla customer base, which is overwhelmingly 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.720 left of center people not necessarily libs or progressives, but 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.600 like people who are concerned about the environment and willing 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.800 to change their habits and make a very large purchase 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:00.960 to sort of like put their money where their mouth. 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.200 And was he fully aware do you believe at just 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.240 how much he was going to turn them away when 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:09.880 he made this pivot, or was is he surprised at all? 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:15.400 I think Elon currently seems concerned about this pivot and 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.720 what it's doing to Tesla sales, what it's doing to 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.680 Tesla's share price. I think you can see that in 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.400 the sort of car show that they put on at 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:27.400 the White House last week. I don't know what he expected, Like, 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:29.520 it's very hard for me to put myself in his 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.760 sort of mindset going into this, because I think any 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.520 anybody who works in branding or marketing would tell you 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.600 that this is like what would happen when you changed 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.280 the identity of the company from something that sort of 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.360 flatters the sensibilities of progressives and people who are interested 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.240 in the environment and in staving off climate change to 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.200 something that is, you know, supportive of climate change, supportive 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:54.040 of antagonizing that customer base. 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.840 On that antagonizing point, there was a moment on the 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.040 Stephen Colbert Show last week that kind have captured this 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:05.080 a bit. Let us understand that in general, the Colbert 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:10.959 Live audience is a progressive, wealthy, uh East Coast crowd, 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:15.360 give or take. I'm sure there's some tourists in all tourists, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:16.080 but are they not. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.160 It's probably left of center, given that Colbert's left of center, 0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:23.000 But my guess is it's like more centrist than than 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.760 like the regular cross section of New York. 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.359 All right, well, let's let's listen to that clip. Well, 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.800 there was a silver lining on the implosion of the 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:37.159 world economy. It's bad for Elon Musk too. Yesterday, Well. 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.040 That is not great for sales. 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:52.880 Wow wow, Now, Max, What struck me having watched it 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.119 last week was uh, just how raw it sort of 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.760 felt from the crowd and how much Colbert and and 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.800 the with him, we're sort of shocked by the extent 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:08.640 of the reaction. And yeah, it's it's a thing. 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.080 Yeah, I mean, I think they're two misunderstandings, and Amanda 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.000 has kind of hinted at both of them. One is 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.520 the sort of misunderstanding of his own customer base and 0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:23.800 like what they were excited about, what their politics look like, 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:26.880 and how they felt about Donald trumpor would feel about 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.320 Donald Trump. And the second, frankly, is a misunderstanding of 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.480 Donald Trump's voters and how enthusiastic they are to buy 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.600 electric vehicles or to you know, participate in the fandom 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.720 of somebody that does what looks like to most saying 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:47.879 people a Nazi salute, right Like, most people, including most Republicans, 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:50.480 do not like that stuff. They don't like the like 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:54.080 trolling version of Elon Musk. And you see that in 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.920 the poll numbers. Musk's poll numbers are worse than Donald 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.560 Trump's pull numbers, which is pretty amazing, honestly, considering that 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.600 Musk was a very popular figure just a couple of 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:09.200 years ago, beloved essentially and admired by people of both parties, 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.720 and he has managed to just like blow past even 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.600 one of the most divisive people, you know, public figures, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:17.479 you know, in the world. 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.200 Yeah, am I talking with some of my friends who 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.280 are members of MAGA, and I've raised with them and 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:28.359 I've said, what do you think about this, you know, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.040 buying a Tesla, And I think that the sentiment has 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.200 been no chance in hell has essentially been what I've 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:41.520 heard back now, Amanda on that White House lawn sales 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:46.119 pitch that we saw last week Musk and Trump and 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.560 there's this whole fleet of Tesla's, of all colors and 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.560 shapes and sizes. You wrote in the piece that to 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.520 you it reeks of desperation. Is that what this is 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.120 here and that it is not going to be an 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:03.800 elixir of sorts for the brand. 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.879 Yes, I think that when you see a stunt like that, 0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:11.119 My reading of it was that Elon understands that, like 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:15.880 his his traditional consumer is not interested in associating with 0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:18.760 what he's now associated the brand with and what these 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:22.960 protests have very effectively further associated the brand with, and 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:27.240 he understands it seems that he needs to find some 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:32.040 sort of other like Polish for this situation, and so 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.159 he went to Donald Trump, which who was divisive but 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:39.160 extremely popular among a large swamp of the population, and 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.560 it was essentially trying to more explicitly hook Tesla up 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.720 to not just his own cult of personality, but to 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:50.800 Donald Trump's. And I think that it probably worked for 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.480 like some small number of people who were really, really 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:58.280 in tune to, you know, signals coming from Trump himself. 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.119 But like most of Trump's voter are not fully bought 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.440 in ideologues to the weirdest parts of internet right wing thought. 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:10.440 They are regular people who, like Max SAIDs don't necessarily 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.040