1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 2: A star is born Elon up On mars Juson Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 4: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 3: I feel for the guy. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 4: But those two percent that are nasty, they are I'll 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 4: pay in four post. 10 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: We were meant for great things in the United States 11 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: of America, and Elon reminds. 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: Us of that we don't have a fourth branch of 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: governments called Elon Musk. 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Elon Ang, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, March eighteenth. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. Now 16 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: this week has mercifully given us a bit of a 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: break from the non stop barrage of Elon Indoze news. 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean things are quiet in the Musk Empire. 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: There's been all sorts of news on the SpaceX front, 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: and we'll start off there, and then Amanda Mall will 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: join us to talk about a terrific piece you just 22 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: pen for BusinessWeek about the epic brand destruction. Elon has 23 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: unleased at Tesla to talk about everything SpaceX. We have 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: our two regulars, Max Chafkin and Dana Hall. Maxilo to you, Hello, David, Dana, 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: how are you hello? 26 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 4: Hello? 27 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: Now, I know that I often say on this show, 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: I know nothing about what we're about to talk about, 29 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: but I truly and when it comes to SpaceX, I 30 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: truly know nothing about this. So you guys are going 31 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: to help me like you're going to help our listeners. Dana, 32 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: the stranded astronauts up there at the space station are 33 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: coming home courtesy of Elon. Musk tell us about it. 34 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: Well, First of all, the phrase stranded is something that 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: NASA has kind of pushed back on. 36 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: They're stranded, they're stranded and miserable. 37 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I know that journalists love to say that 38 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: they're stranded and they're stuck, but the truth is that 39 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 3: they're doing research and they're there because they want to 40 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 3: be there. And yes, they were supposed to come home 41 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 3: on a Boeing Starliner craft. NASA made the decision not 42 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: to send them home on the Boeing craft, So now 43 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,079 Speaker 3: they are coming home on a SpaceX Dragon capsule. And 44 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 3: this is a big win for Elon because it kind 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: of plays into this narrative that quote unquote SpaceX is 46 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: rescuing the astronauts, and yeah, I mean they are. They 47 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 3: are bringing them home, and that's a huge win for Elon. 48 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 3: And SpaceX has a brand as like the most reliable 49 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: way to get to and from the space station. 50 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: NASA has, as Dana is saying, a reliable way to 51 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: get astronauts to and from the International Space Station it 52 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 2: is SpaceX. It is also and separately attempting to find 53 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 2: a second way. Now that is very annoying to Elon 54 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: Musk since he essentially has a monopoly on this business. 55 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 2: So as they've been developing this, Musk has been at 56 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 2: pains to spin this as some kind of huge failure, 57 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: and it is. It is definitely a setback for Boeing. 58 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: But NASA could have sent these astronauts home much sooner 59 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: if it had wanted to. It chose not to, And 60 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 2: as Dan is saying, they chose to be there. 61 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: Okay, fine, so you guys insist that they're not stranded, 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: but they are. We can agree that they are coming home. 63 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: They're not. 64 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 4: They're they're traveling now, They're they're hurtling through. 65 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: As we speak through the void of the sound over 66 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: there that I hear, is that the sound of them 67 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: hurtling through space. 68 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 4: By the time listeners hear this podcast, they may splash ocean. 69 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the astronauts are on their way home. I mean, 70 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 3: they are in the capsule and they are expected to 71 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: splash down, like Tuesday evening. They will splash down Tuesday. 72 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: Around the time this podcast splashes down as you're listening. 73 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: A splashdown is is a term that everybody loves to 74 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: use with these things. Right, there's no other way to 75 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: come back from the space station if you're not you know, 76 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: beyond splashing again. 77 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: Okay, David, you know you realize it's because they are 78 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: landing in the ocean. Like it's cost. 79 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: I'm aware of that, but is in every case it's 80 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: separate news. Starlink, a key division of SpaceX, is getting 81 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: a competitor or Max Competitive Tours. Tell us about it, all. 82 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, so there's a bunch of stuff happening around Starlink, 83 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: and in particular around Starlink. Competitors is a new spinoff 84 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: from Alphabet, the parent company of Google, which is called. 85 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 4: T A A RX. 86 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: I guess a titara is how you say, I don't 87 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: know how to say it. It is a high speed 88 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: internet company. It does not use satellites. It uses I'm 89 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 2: not etting this up. It uses lasers that are mounted 90 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: on towers. Apparently they can send high speed data, very 91 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: long rate a laser, essentially like fiber optic cables, but 92 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: in the sky. And this is being spun as a 93 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 2: potential Starlink competitor. This is the thing that other technology 94 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: company have talked about. It is not a direct competitor 95 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: starting What it is is another potential way to deliver 96 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: high speed internet to people in rural areas, which is 97 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: like the main use case for Starlink. Now, I want 98 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: to say two things. One is this is like very 99 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 2: very speculative. The company, according to the report in the Verge, 100 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: which is the one that we all saw, has like 101 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: two dozen employees. Google has been trying to find ways 102 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: to provide broadband internet to rural areas for a very 103 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: long time, with. 104 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 4: Very little success. 105 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 2: This actually had its roots in their balloon Internet program, 106 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: which you may or may not remember. 107 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: I don't. 108 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 4: That did not end well. 109 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: This is not how like you know you're going to 110 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: log on to Facebook and you need to. 111 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: Said that the Balloon Internet program. 112 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: Did not want Now I want to say this though 113 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: this is again very speculative, not worth banking on at 114 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: the moment. 115 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: That said, but a window into something. 116 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: Well, it shows you number one, that there are multiple 117 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: ways for companies to go after Starlink. We often talk 118 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: about Elon Musk kind of having a monopoly, right because 119 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: he has a lot of satellites, but he doesn't have 120 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 2: a monopoly on Internet access because there are other ways 121 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: to deliver the Internet. You can get your Internet via 122 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 2: fiber rocket cable, You can get your Internet via cell 123 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 2: phone tower. You could even conceivably get your Internet via 124 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: some crazy laser. 125 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 4: Things that you know. I don't know, David, make sure 126 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 4: I don't totally understand. 127 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: Now. 128 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 2: The other thing is there are other Starlink competitors. There 129 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: are a couple of companies that are sort of legacy 130 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: satellite providers that use older technology but also provide satellite 131 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: Internet service. There is also an EU company. Yeah you 132 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: tellt Yeah, I think it's like Eutel Sat maybe really 133 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: probably the most literal name. 134 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 4: For a for a company in history. 135 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: It is a EU based satellite provider and this company 136 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: is getting a lot of buzz. 137 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: Stock has been soaring. 138 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's been up like five times over the 139 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: last month. Over the past month. There is there is 140 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: thought that Europeans may, especially European governments, may prefer to 141 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: do business with a European space company at a time when, 142 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: of course Donald Trump is you know, taking this nationalistic 143 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: pose and Elon Musk is so closely. 144 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: Allied with him. 145 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 2: So there are these other options, and I think seeing 146 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: these other options materialize kind of hints at the ways 147 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: that this bet that Elon Musk has made on Donald 148 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: Trump could go bad. His businesses, while very strong, have vulnerabilities. 149 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: So, Dana, we've obviously seen it again and again and 150 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: again in enormous numbers when it comes to Tesla, that 151 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: old customer base walking away from the company, and we're 152 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: going to talk about that at length again in the 153 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: back half of the show. Maybe some signs that a 154 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: little bit of that now happening potentially in the starlink space. 155 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: The Guardian, I should point out, had a piece that 156 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: came out yesterday or today citing some people who said 157 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: I've given up my Starlink. I would have just myself 158 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: slapped the bumper sticker on my Starlink and kept and 159 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: kept using it. But maybe some signs emerging there. 160 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, you know, I think what's funny is 161 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 3: that for so long, I mean in the early days, 162 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 3: like Tesla was the scrappy upstart taking on legacy Atto, 163 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: and you know, Starlink was the scrappy telecom company taking 164 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 3: on the big incumbents. And now that Elon is who 165 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: he is, doing what he's doing with the Trump administration, 166 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 3: the only way that consumers feel like they have political 167 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: agency to kind of fight back is to you know, 168 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 3: slap a bumper sticker or give up their product. I 169 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: mean that said, most people buy products because they like 170 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 3: the products, Like, yeah, you know, equally, there are a 171 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 3: lot of people that are probably upset with Jeff Bezos. 172 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 3: I'm not seeing people like vandalizing Whole Foods or canceling 173 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 3: Amazon in the big numbers that they're you know, virtue 174 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: signaling about their Tesla's. 175 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: I just don't think right the rejection is quite is 176 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: quite a strong, but that is a good The virtue 177 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: signaling term max is important because Guardian article like actually 178 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: came out I misspoke, it came out on Sunday. 179 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: The lead image is like a Scottish folks. It's not 180 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: exactly like he's barefoot on the beach. There must be 181 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 2: like three or four other people like. 182 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 4: This is not necessarily a huge court. 183 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: I do want to say, though, there are other customers 184 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 2: that are rethinking Starlink. 185 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 4: You know, we're seeing reports out of Italy. 186 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: Remember we talked some weeks ago about the deal that 187 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: Starlink was in talks with Georgia Maloney and the Italian 188 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: government to provide. So there's now increasing opposition in Italy 189 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: over this deal. It is not a done deal and 190 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: so and we're seeing you know, the opposition parties in 191 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: Italy saying, hey, we should do this with a European player, 192 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 2: not with space A. You tell set, well, yeah, assumably 193 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: it isn't just virtue signaling, right like there are strategic 194 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: reasons why countries might not want to know it has 195 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: it can't. 196 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: It certainly can't be virtue signaling in the same way 197 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: it is with the Tesla, because who the hell knows 198 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: what your internet is? 199 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 5: Is? 200 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: You know how you're and so it's truly you must 201 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 1: really when you get rid of it, you must truly 202 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: be concerned about your association with the company. If you're 203 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: Italy or as a customer, you'd be like you must 204 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: be just like I can't signal to my neighbors and 205 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: my friends and he you know, I can't send them 206 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: a message. But man, for me as a consumer, I 207 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: just really don't want to give him any money. That's 208 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: what it has to be. And we'll just see ultimately 209 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: how beyond that, Scotsman, how big that universe is. And 210 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: then over the weekend, Dana, we had an ex from 211 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: Elon claiming that the first SpaceX mission to Mars is 212 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: going to happen next year. 213 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: What say you, Well, he's been saying that for a 214 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 3: long time, so that's not really new. What was new 215 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 3: was that that Optimists would be on board, right, So 216 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 3: the idea is that the Optimist is going to Mars 217 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: before the humans. 218 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 4: You don't need a life support system, right, true. 219 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: So it just sort of shows once again how like 220 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: all of his products and all everything that he's doing, 221 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: it's all in the service of Mars, right Like the 222 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 3: boring company tunnels are all about Mars. Optimist is gonna 223 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: work on Mars, and he's excited about it because you know, 224 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: he's now got this relationship with Trump, Trump wants to 225 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: go to Mars by the end of his first term. 226 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 3: I mean, this is the whole enchilada. It's all about Mars. 227 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: I think there's a second reason why he's talking about 228 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I take Danna's point that, you know, freelon 229 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 2: Mars is the whole enchilada. But also, and we'll get 230 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: to this in the next segment, Tesla stock is collapsing 231 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 2: right now. Optimist is a Tesla product. He has used 232 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 2: SpaceX in the past to provide marketing Tesla. That's what 233 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: that's in part what this is. Right Saying he's gonna 234 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 2: send Optimists to Mars is a way to potentially remind 235 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: Tesla investors like I've got this really awesome robot called Optimists, 236 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 2: and you know it's gonna be worth thirty trillion dollars 237 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 2: or whatever. The other thing I want to say, there 238 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: is no Mars program. Not only does does starship does 239 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: it not appear to be technically ready or anywhere near 240 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: ready to do the things that Elon is saying. 241 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 4: NASA hasn't agreed to that. The thing that starts. 242 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: But being under Trump, if Musk really wants to go 243 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: to Mars asap is NASA. I'm not going to say yes. 244 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: I think we assume that Donald Trump will be in 245 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: favor of that. I don't think we know how the 246 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 2: politics of that are going to work. There are other 247 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: constituents here, there are other defense contractors, there are voters 248 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: in the states where those defense contractors operate, on many 249 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 2: which are red states. There's going to be a lot 250 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: of political opposition to like taking money away from one 251 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: NASA program and putting in another. And there would also 252 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: be a lot of opposition to just like taking money 253 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: away from what like Social Security employees or something. I mean, 254 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 2: I'm not saying cut, I'm gonna say from not saying recipients. 255 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 2: I'm saying they are cutting a huge, huge numbers of 256 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: staff from the Social Security Administration and many other administrations. 257 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 2: And one of the things that Elon Musk has said 258 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: he thinks that we should do with that money is 259 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 2: put into a MARS program. So, like, I don't know 260 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 2: why that's far fetched. That is that is kind of like. 261 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: What he said he in that case, and that is 262 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: a political a tough sell politically. 263 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 4: I'll say. 264 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: Now, the other thing is they would need to make 265 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: this starship do a lot more things than it has 266 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: already done. I mean, when Elon Musk went on the 267 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 2: Rogan podcast, there was a lengthy discussion about the heat 268 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: shield on the Starship spacecraft, and it is not working yet. 269 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 2: It is a novel design that they have not figured out. 270 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: And that is among several problems that are sort of novel, 271 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: including attempting to refuel this thing in space. There's a 272 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: lot of questions about how many launches it'll take. 273 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: Will there will be some sort of refueling vessel waiting 274 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: for it up in space something. 275 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 4: That is the plan. So so he's going to launch 276 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 4: the just to get to the Moon. 277 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: The plan is he's going to launch Starship, and then 278 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: there are going to be a succession of many fuel launch. 279 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: Like water stations in a marathon, like. 280 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 4: Water stations in America. 281 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,679 Speaker 1: You know how tricky that can be. Grab the water 282 00:13:58,760 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: to watch. 283 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 2: Sometimes it gets dropped on you. But and in space 284 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: sometimes the fuel just gets boiled off and disappears. So 285 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: there are lots of issues. Again, it's not not to 286 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 2: say that these issues are going to be impossible. It's 287 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: just like acting like this is a done deal either 288 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: technically or politically, is you know, bordering on delusional. 289 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: Okay, let's move on to Tesla. Okay. We're now joined 290 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: by Amanda mal a writer for Business Week. Amanda, thanks 291 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: for joining us, Thanks for having me, Amanda. You just 292 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: published today a terrific piece about Tesla and the brand 293 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: destruction that Elon has wrought there, and there was a 294 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: line that really jumped out at me and I wanted 295 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: to ask you about it. You wrote that it's nearly 296 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: impossible to think of a comparable example of a company 297 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: detonating its own brand. Tell us about that. We've debated 298 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: this a little bit on the show before, and we 299 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: were wondering what kind of historical comparisons there were, and 300 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: you found none. 301 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, I've written about consumerism and branding and marketing 302 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 5: for a long time, and what Tesla is doing with 303 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 5: its customer base and its market positioning and it's branding 304 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 5: right now is something that you know, I sort of 305 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 5: stumped me for an analog in the history of consumption, 306 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 5: because you know, brands pivot all the time. They seek 307 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 5: to change their markets, they seek to expand their markets, 308 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 5: they seek to find new kinds of customers. They do 309 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 5: that in all sorts of ways, but very, very rarely 310 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 5: is that done through telling almost their entire existing customer 311 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 5: base that like not own yes to essentially go, you know, 312 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 5: f themselves. And that is quite literally what Elon has 313 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 5: done with the current Tesla customer base, which is overwhelmingly 314 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 5: left of center people not necessarily libs or progressives, but 315 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 5: like people who are concerned about the environment and willing 316 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 5: to change their habits and make a very large purchase 317 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 5: to sort of like put their money where their mouth. 318 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: And was he fully aware do you believe at just 319 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: how much he was going to turn them away when 320 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: he made this pivot, or was is he surprised at all? 321 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 5: I think Elon currently seems concerned about this pivot and 322 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 5: what it's doing to Tesla sales, what it's doing to 323 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 5: Tesla's share price. I think you can see that in 324 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 5: the sort of car show that they put on at 325 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 5: the White House last week. I don't know what he expected, Like, 326 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 5: it's very hard for me to put myself in his 327 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 5: sort of mindset going into this, because I think any 328 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 5: anybody who works in branding or marketing would tell you 329 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 5: that this is like what would happen when you changed 330 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 5: the identity of the company from something that sort of 331 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 5: flatters the sensibilities of progressives and people who are interested 332 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 5: in the environment and in staving off climate change to 333 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 5: something that is, you know, supportive of climate change, supportive 334 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 5: of antagonizing that customer base. 335 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 1: On that antagonizing point, there was a moment on the 336 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: Stephen Colbert Show last week that kind have captured this 337 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: a bit. Let us understand that in general, the Colbert 338 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 1: Live audience is a progressive, wealthy, uh East Coast crowd, 339 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: give or take. I'm sure there's some tourists in all tourists, 340 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: but are they not. 341 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 2: It's probably left of center, given that Colbert's left of center, 342 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 2: But my guess is it's like more centrist than than 343 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: like the regular cross section of New York. 344 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: All right, well, let's let's listen to that clip. Well, 345 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: there was a silver lining on the implosion of the 346 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: world economy. It's bad for Elon Musk too. Yesterday, Well. 347 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 4: That is not great for sales. 348 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 1: Wow wow, Now, Max, What struck me having watched it 349 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: last week was uh, just how raw it sort of 350 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: felt from the crowd and how much Colbert and and 351 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: the with him, we're sort of shocked by the extent 352 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: of the reaction. And yeah, it's it's a thing. 353 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think they're two misunderstandings, and Amanda 354 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: has kind of hinted at both of them. One is 355 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 2: the sort of misunderstanding of his own customer base and 356 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 2: like what they were excited about, what their politics look like, 357 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 2: and how they felt about Donald trumpor would feel about 358 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. And the second, frankly, is a misunderstanding of 359 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: Donald Trump's voters and how enthusiastic they are to buy 360 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: electric vehicles or to you know, participate in the fandom 361 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: of somebody that does what looks like to most saying 362 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 2: people a Nazi salute, right Like, most people, including most Republicans, 363 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: do not like that stuff. They don't like the like 364 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: trolling version of Elon Musk. And you see that in 365 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: the poll numbers. Musk's poll numbers are worse than Donald 366 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: Trump's pull numbers, which is pretty amazing, honestly, considering that 367 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: Musk was a very popular figure just a couple of 368 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: years ago, beloved essentially and admired by people of both parties, 369 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: and he has managed to just like blow past even 370 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: one of the most divisive people, you know, public figures, 371 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 2: you know, in the world. 372 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, am I talking with some of my friends who 373 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: are members of MAGA, and I've raised with them and 374 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: I've said, what do you think about this, you know, 375 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: buying a Tesla, And I think that the sentiment has 376 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 1: been no chance in hell has essentially been what I've 377 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: heard back now, Amanda on that White House lawn sales 378 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: pitch that we saw last week Musk and Trump and 379 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: there's this whole fleet of Tesla's, of all colors and 380 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: shapes and sizes. You wrote in the piece that to 381 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: you it reeks of desperation. Is that what this is 382 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: here and that it is not going to be an 383 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: elixir of sorts for the brand. 384 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 5: Yes, I think that when you see a stunt like that, 385 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 5: My reading of it was that Elon understands that, like 386 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 5: his his traditional consumer is not interested in associating with 387 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 5: what he's now associated the brand with and what these 388 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 5: protests have very effectively further associated the brand with, and 389 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 5: he understands it seems that he needs to find some 390 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 5: sort of other like Polish for this situation, and so 391 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 5: he went to Donald Trump, which who was divisive but 392 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 5: extremely popular among a large swamp of the population, and 393 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 5: it was essentially trying to more explicitly hook Tesla up 394 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 5: to not just his own cult of personality, but to 395 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 5: Donald Trump's. And I think that it probably worked for 396 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 5: like some small number of people who were really, really 397 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 5: in tune to, you know, signals coming from Trump himself. 398 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 5: But like most of Trump's voter are not fully bought 399 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 5: in ideologues to the weirdest parts of internet right wing thought. 400 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 5: They are regular people who, like Max SAIDs don't necessarily 401 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 5: want to be associated with a lot of the things 402 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 5: that Elon Musk explicitly associates himself with. Like people who 403 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 5: want to own the Libs through their car purchases have 404 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 5: like a wealth of options. They have all kinds of 405 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 5: trucks and SUVs. 406 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: And buying a Model three is not that is not 407 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 1: how you achieve it. 408 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: I remember that ad that which we talked about. I 409 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: showed this demanda before we started taping. But Dan, I'll remember, 410 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: well America Pack ran these ads that were like, the 411 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: Libs don't want you to buys to like take zin 412 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 2: or eat red meat or buy a truck. 413 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 4: And you see a picture of a truck, it's not 414 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 4: a cyber truck. It's a gag. 415 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: Well, we Man and I were trying to figure out 416 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: what it was, but we couldn't figure out. It may 417 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 2: have been a rock generated truck, but in any case, 418 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: it was definitively not a cyber truck like you can 419 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: buy as a man of center piece. 420 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 4: You can buy like a V eight, you know, or whatever. 421 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 2: You can buy a F two fifty and on the 422 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 2: libs that way fifty big you can if you really 423 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: want to commit. But but in any case, like there's 424 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,239 Speaker 2: just you know, it's it's just not clear that like 425 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 2: the pitch of Sustainable Transport has found purchase with that. 426 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 5: He's in a really he's in a really crowded market 427 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 5: for symbols of owning the libs via you know, vehicular manner. 428 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: Okay, but but he does he is quite good at 429 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: owning the libs, though in general perhaps not via via 430 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: vehicle uh sales. Now, Dan, I want to raise this 431 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: with you though, because there was a Washington Post story 432 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: that came out in the last couple of days that 433 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: says that Google search increases or Internet search increases in 434 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: Red America for quote by a Tesla are way up. 435 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: And then they cite a bunch of politicians and sorts 436 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: no buyers to be They don't cite a single buyer, 437 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: but they have a bunch of politicians sort of really 438 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: pushing in the wake of the White House lawn ship 439 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: the Tesla brand. We are from where you sit your 440 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: dubious this is going to go anywhere. I mean, there 441 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: are showrooms, by the way, I looked up in red America. 442 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: There are showrooms in Meridian, Idaho, and Council Bluffs, Iowa, 443 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: and Strongsville, Ohio, and Chattanooga, Tennessee. They're not rushing to 444 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: those dealerships to buy musks. 445 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 3: Shift to the right and the effort to kind of 446 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: pitch Tesla as a car to middle America began quite 447 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 3: a while ago when the company moved its headquarters from 448 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 3: California to Texas. And you know, if you look at Tesla, 449 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 3: like the mission of the company is about accelerating clean energy, 450 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 3: but they really market the car as just being like 451 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: a cool tech car. Right. So they've been aware that 452 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 3: there has always been a ceiling to the number of 453 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 3: liberal clostal consumers who were going to buy a Tesla. 454 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 3: They knew that they had to kind of reach out 455 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 3: to red state America a long time ago, which is 456 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 3: part of why they moved to Texas, which is part 457 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 3: of why they came out with the cyber truck. But 458 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: that said, the infrastructure for EVS in Middle America is 459 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: still not as strong, and like the state incentives are 460 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 3: not as strong as they are in places like California 461 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: and Colorado. That said, like Texas is a big state 462 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 3: for EVS, and there are a lot of people who 463 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: drive Tesla's in Texas. It's all Texas and Florida. So like, 464 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 3: I think people have the wrong impression that you know, 465 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: EV penetration is you know, blue state only. It's actually 466 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 3: the penetration is warm state. Texas and Florida are huge 467 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 3: EV states. So this shift has been going on for 468 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: quite some time and predates Trump selection. 469 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: You know that that made for TV infomercial thing and 470 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: talking about the white on the White House lawn. You know, 471 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: I think if you watched it, it wasn't a great 472 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: ad for Tesla. It was a great piece of content 473 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: for Donald Trump because well it was. It was really 474 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: entertaining and really fun. It had this moment where Trump 475 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 2: got in the model atque computer Everything's computer. Yeah, it's 476 00:24:58,440 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: all computer. 477 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: This is a different panel that I've had. 478 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 5: Everything's computer, that's. 479 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 2: Beautiful and and like that was a viral moment, and 480 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: and it just really had the contours of like of 481 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 2: a reality show, like an episode of The Apprentice that' said, 482 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: the actual like sales pitch was kind of buried in 483 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: a middle like a press conference, a bunch of Trump's antics. 484 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: And then the whole point of this thing was that 485 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: Trump was gonna buy a car, which he barely did 486 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,200 Speaker 2: in the thing. You watch the thing right that Trump 487 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 2: gets in the car, he takes a bunch of questions. 488 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: Half an hour goes by, then he starts saying his goodbyes. 489 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: He says, oh, thank you, Elon, thank you. Every Then 490 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: the reporters are like, mister President, what car are you 491 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: gonna buy? And he just like flips around and kind 492 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 2: of casually goes like, oh, that one. And it doesn't 493 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 2: look like a considered purchase, doesn't look like something he's 494 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: truly excited about. And I think this gets to a 495 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: more profound problem with Elon Musk, which is that he 496 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: is now in a sort of relationship, a business relationship 497 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: with Donald Trump, who is not somebody who is really 498 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: all about kind of win win partner ships. And I 499 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: think it's pretty clear that Donald Trump is doing very 500 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: well in this partnership. 501 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 3: You know. 502 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 2: After this event, the New York Times reported that Elon 503 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 2: Musk had agreed to give another one hundred million dollars 504 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: to donate another one hundred million dollars to Donald Trump's Superpack. 505 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: Not his own superpack, because Muscle is putting money into 506 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: that for the Wisconsin State Supreme Court, but an additional 507 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 2: one hundred million bucks for Trump to spend as he pleases. 508 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 2: Trump is doing really well here. And again I don't 509 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: know that Elon Musk got his hundred million dollars worth 510 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: in that event. 511 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 3: Well, the other thing that was significant about that event 512 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 3: was that Trump agreed that people who are vandalizing teslas 513 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: should be treated as domestic terrorists. And that is like 514 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 3: a huge escalation and something that everyone really needs to 515 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: pay attention to. So you're now going to see, you know, 516 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 3: as people get arrested for vandalizing stores, or keying cars 517 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 3: or setting superchargers on fire, like much more aggressive prosecution. 518 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: I thought, owners of t still, we're going to be 519 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: protected by hate crime laws. It's it's terrorism that we're going. 520 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 4: What what what? 521 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: What made me laugh a little bit was the quote 522 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: from the Attorney General Pam Bondi the other day where 523 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 1: she said, if you're going to touch a Tesla, go 524 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 1: to a dealership, do anything, you better watch out. And 525 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like that's the problem. No one's going and 526 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: touching Tesla's and going to dealerships. You need people to 527 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: go there. So it's like, of all the worries we have, 528 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: that shouldn't be one. 529 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there are, like you, questions about norms 530 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: and kind of like potential executive overreach here, but like 531 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 2: this just calls more attention to the protests than otherwise 532 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 2: than I think there like you're just saying yeah. I mean, like, 533 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 2: I don't think this really helps e on Musk in 534 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: any way. It just it just calls attention to fact 535 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: that like if you shoul drive a Tesla, people are 536 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: are going to just be boiling mad all around you. 537 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: I mean, well, Dan, I want to point out that 538 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: stock opened up. Tesla did down again this morning, testing 539 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: once again those lows that had hit last week. I 540 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 1: think it's been down around fifty percent or so from 541 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: the peak, the immediate post election peak, and it's down 542 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: in part because of this big BYD news overnight out 543 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: of China. BYD's now got this whole new car and 544 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: this new battery that you can recharge almost as quickly 545 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: as you would put fuel in a combustion car, just 546 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: five minutes. And it just strikes me. And I think 547 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: it's striking investors out there that BYD is just bringing 548 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: it and innovating day in and day out, while Tesla 549 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: sort of snoozes. 550 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're also finally seeing like the sell side 551 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: analysts wake up and cut their estimates, so that's also 552 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 3: impacting the stock. But yeah, no, I mean, like Tesla 553 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 3: has real competition in China, which is where it gets 554 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,479 Speaker 3: like forty percent of its sales, and BYD and you know, 555 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 3: like for so long the supercharging network has been Tesla's 556 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: big value add but now like the next sleep is 557 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 3: like even faster, and there is this sense that like 558 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 3: the valuation is coming back to earth. The backlash against 559 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 3: the brand is real. As Amanda wrote so beautifully in 560 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 3: her piece, analysts are waking up. Q one is going 561 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: to be a mess. You know, everyone's cutting their price 562 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 3: targets and their estimates, and you know, I think the 563 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 3: proxy will be worth reading too. 564 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: Okay, Now, Amanda, as Dana just summarized so well, it 565 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: is a pretty gloomy outlook out there, and for him 566 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: and for Musk in this moment, and for Tesla. You 567 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: wrote in the piece as well that Musk appears to 568 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: have completely misapprehended the symbolic value of Tesla's brand, or 569 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: at the very least, he seems to have misunderstood his 570 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: own capacity to change the nature of that value without 571 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: also diminishing it. So I ask you this the same 572 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: question I asked Dana last week. If Musk had to 573 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: do it all over again and he could know then 574 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: what he knows now, is he still a yes to 575 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: this whole thing? 576 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 5: I think he probably is, because I think he is 577 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 5: like a true believer in a diologue, in the stuff 578 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 5: that he is doing politically right. 579 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 1: The government needs to be rained in and government spending 580 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: needs to be reined in. 581 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 5: Yes, I think that his larger project is this. 582 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: Doge stuff drive Tesla is zero. 583 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely. I think that I think that he feel 584 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 5: he is sure enough in himself that he can find 585 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 5: some sort of financial upside, maybe not for Tesla, but 586 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 5: maybe but elsewhere that he will be fine. 587 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: So his break he essentially from the Tesla's stock price, 588 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: there is no breaking point in the Tesla stock price 589 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: for him. Maxis, do you have a Tesla stock price 590 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: where Musk capitulates and breaks? 591 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 4: And I think so. 592 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: I think that Elon Musk, I think he and Donald 593 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 2: Trump will last through the midterm. But I think the 594 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,959 Speaker 2: only thing that could stop that, but the thing that 595 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 2: could lead Musk to leave, or could lead that relationship 596 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 2: to break up, is not about Donald Trump getting sick 597 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 2: of kind of like Elon Musk hang around or whatever 598 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: other kind of hilarity ensues over in the executive branch. 599 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: It is the stock price of Tesla. It's like, if 600 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: it fell, it's falling about fifty percent. If it fell 601 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: another fifty fifty percent from where it is today, which 602 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: totally could happen. You look at the share price of Bid. 603 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: You're talking about how great Bid is doing. It is 604 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: worth a lot less than Tesla. 605 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 4: I looked. 606 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 2: I think it's you know, between one hundred and two 607 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: hundred billion. Tesla right now worth seven hundred billion. So 608 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 2: if that stock price were to fall further, if it 609 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: were to fall too closer to the valuation of SpaceX, 610 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 2: for instance, you know, round, that would make my exactlytion 611 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 2: below for one hundred billion. I could see Musk opting 612 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: to spend more time with his company, Like he could 613 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 2: basically maintain his alliance with Trump and go back to 614 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: Tesla and like solve potentially two problems at the same time. 615 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: Like at some point there are going to be diminishing returns. 616 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: Those are going to start to face diminishing returns where 617 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: like it gets harder to cut costs the political backlash growth, 618 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: and also like there's no reason he couldn't say, thank you, 619 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 2: mister president, You're doing a great job, but I need 620 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: to focus on my company. And he could still write 621 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 2: Trump hundreds of billions of dollars worth of checks. 622 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And aren't you, by the way, already starting to 623 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: get diminishing returns from dos? I mean, certainly, as we 624 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: said at the very top of the show, they're in 625 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: the news a lot less than they used to be. Now. 626 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: Maybe that's just because Wow, they're just doing their business 627 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: now and the shock and all of the initial days 628 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: is pasted. Don't read too much into that or read 629 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: a lot into it. They're just not getting a whole 630 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: lot done at this point. 631 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 2: I don't think we really know like in terms of 632 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 2: their you know, cut attempts to cut government spending, whether 633 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: they've hit diminishing returns. I think politically they are hitting 634 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 2: diminishing returns. You know, the reports out recently about getting 635 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: rid of phone support for social Security, Like, you're starting 636 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: to cut into things that are. 637 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 4: Going to be popular with voters. 638 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: People people who need to access social Security benefits do 639 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: not you know, they happen to be most of them 640 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 2: happen to be very old, and they're not necessarily the 641 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 2: kind of person who's like super enthusiastic about talking to 642 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: a chatbot. I am not enthusiastic about talking to a chatbot. 643 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: And you know, and I'm forty two, so like I 644 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 2: can only imagine somebody who has less experienced how they 645 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: feel about it. 646 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, and this goes back to what you were talking 647 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 5: about earlier. I think about the sort of Trump is 648 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 5: not like a win winess business partnership guy. So he 649 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 5: Trump has effectively gotten Elon Musk to be the face 650 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 5: of a lot of the things that are going to. 651 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 4: Be unpopular. 652 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: That he if he were the guy with the cudgel 653 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: in his hand, he Trump, he would be taking all 654 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: that heat instead. No, Elon, you got this, dude, go 655 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: for it. 656 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 657 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 5: I think that Trump has effectively structured this whole endeavor 658 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 5: so that Elon Musk is the face of the stuff 659 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 5: that is less likely to be. 660 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: Popular as a results of eventually the fall guy, and 661 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: not only yeah, absolutely yeah, Trump can eventually ran him 662 00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: and say oh no, no, no, no, we don't want to 663 00:33:59,480 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: go that far. 664 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, never mind, you know, we were, We're looking at 665 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 5: it very strongly. 666 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: What did Amanda? Thank you very much for joining us. 667 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: That was a terrific piece you had out today. Tesla's 668 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: gamble on Maga customers won't work. And when you have 669 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: a news story out on mister Mosk or Tesla or 670 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: any of his other companies, you shall come back and 671 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: tell us all about it. 672 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 5: Thank you so much, all. 673 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: Right, Max, Dana thanks as always, Thank you for having us. 674 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 4: David, thank you. 675 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacy wang Anna Masa rakus 676 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: Is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor, Blake 677 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: Maple's handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising 678 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The Elining theme is written and 679 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiira. Reddon Francis Newnham 680 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: is our executive producer, and Sage Bowman is the head 681 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Podcasts. A thanks as always to our supporters 682 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 1: Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you 683 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help 684 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 1: other listeners find us. See you next week.