1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: Guess what, mango? What's that? Will? So I know we're 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: both big fans of Shell Silverstein, But do you remember 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: this poem that was called Prayer of the Selfish Child? 4 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: You know that name sounds so familiar, but I don't 5 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: actually remember the exact words. How how to go? All right? 6 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: So this is one of my favorites. But it goes. Now. 7 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: my soul to keep, and if I die before I wake, 9 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: I pray the Lord my toys to break so none 10 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: of the other kids can use them. Amen. I love it. 11 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: So I've spent countless hours over the years reading Silverstein 12 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: with both of my kids, and I'll never forget probably 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe like seven or eight years ago, 14 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: reading this poem with my daughter and just seeing her 15 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: get this little smirk on her face when I read 16 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: it to her, and it was as though she was thinking, Okay, 17 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: I know that's wrong, but I also get it and 18 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,319 Speaker 1: it's pretty darn funny. Yeah. I think most kids can 19 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: identify with that feeling in some way, Like there's something 20 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: about Shell Silverstein's writing that allows us to be a 21 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: little dark or maybe a little naughty, But also really 22 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: silly at the same time. That's exactly it. So you 23 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: know what we we thought it was time to dedicate 24 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: an episode to one of our favorite children's authors to 25 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: talk about his fascinating and successful career well before he 26 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: was ever pushed into writing for kids, to hear what 27 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: he thought kids wanted to hear, and also how he 28 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: felt about happy endings. So let's dive ina. Hey there, 29 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: podcast listeners, Welcome to part time genius sim Will Pearson, 30 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: And as always, I'm joined by my good friend Manges Ticketer. 31 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: Of course, Mango is joining me today from the always 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: friendly Mouth Media Studios in New York City. And Mango, 33 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: you're missing this, but on the other side of the 34 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: soundproof glass building a sailboat with the wood from his 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: childhood apple tree. And I'm actually I'm kind of getting 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: choked up as I say this. That's our friend and 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: producer Tristan McNeil. And you know, I'm not sure what 38 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: far off place he plans on going with that, but 39 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 1: it must be a pretty important trip because I know 40 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: how much Tristan loved his old family apple. Excuse me, 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just getting choked up again. So I'm 42 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: wondering about this because I asked him a little earlier, 43 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: and it sounds like he just plans to tool around 44 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: the coast on the weekends, you know, like assuming he 45 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: ever gets this boat finished. Oh well, that that that 46 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: kind of took a dark turn from what I thought 47 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: it might be. But you know what, that that actually 48 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: might be appropriate for today's episode because Shell Silverstein was 49 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 1: certainly not your average Sachran sweet children's author. Now, most 50 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: people know him for his tongue twisting rhymes he penned 51 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: for childhood classics like Where the Sidewalk Ins and A 52 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Light in the Attic, but they were also long and 53 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: varied parts of his career where most people they don't 54 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: really know what he was up to, including some fairly 55 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: unsavory stints as a playwright and a raunchy songwriter and 56 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: a cartoonist for Playboy of all places. So with these 57 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: different sides of the artists in mine, I thought we 58 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: should check out some of the lesser known stories from 59 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: Silverstein's life and you know, try to get a sense 60 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: of how he became one of the most beloved and 61 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: even most controversial writers of the twentieth century. Yeah, so, 62 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: once he became famous as a children's author, details of 63 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: his earlier life and his other work kind of faded 64 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: from public consciousness. And another big reason why those stories 65 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: aren't so well known is that Shell Silverstein was also 66 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: a pretty private guy. Like he rarely gave interviews. He 67 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: never wrote a memoir or sat down with a biographer 68 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: or anything like that. And as a result, we really 69 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: don't know much about Shell's childhood, which is kind of 70 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: ironic given what he's known for. I mean, we know 71 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: the basics, right, like, we know he was born in 72 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty to middle class Jewish family in Chicago, but 73 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: things actually get kind of hazy beyond that. Well, there's 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: at least one other thing we know for sure about 75 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: the young Shell Silverstein, and that is that he was 76 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: positively obsessed with the Chicago White Sox. In fact, in 77 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: a rare nineteen interview with Publishers Weekly, Silverstein said, when 78 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: I was a kid twelve to fourteen around there, I 79 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: would much rather have been a good baseball player or 80 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: a hit with the girls. But I couldn't play ball, 81 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: I couldn't dance. Luckily the girls didn't want me. Not 82 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: much I could do about that, so I started to 83 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: draw and write well. I mean, you've got to appreciate 84 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: his honesty, right, Like, not very many authors would admit 85 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: that a career writing was their plans c. I mean, 86 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: obviously after playing baseball and being a professional casanova. I guess. Well, 87 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: while Silverstein was a little too unathletic to turn pro 88 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: at either of those things, he did have one early 89 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: gig in professional sports, or at least in the same ballpark. 90 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: And that's because he actually spent five years selling beer 91 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: and hot dogs at the Chicago Cubs and Chicago White 92 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: Sox stadiums. And not only did that gig help pay 93 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: us way through school, it actually also gave him some 94 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: valuable life lessons. So, just as one example of this, 95 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: when a reporter asked him what he learned about people 96 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: from his time time as a hot dog vendor, Silverstein replied, 97 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: I learned they like mustard and that they like a 98 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: hot bond. Did you know that if you steam the 99 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: bond first, they'll really like it? I mean, that's the 100 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: sort of wisdom you can't vibe. But speaking of Shell's schooling, 101 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: he actually had a pretty tough go of things. So first, 102 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: he attended the University of Illinois, but was quickly kicked 103 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: out due to his bad grades. And then he tried 104 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: the Art Institute of Chicago, where he wound up dropping 105 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: out after about a year. And lastly he went to 106 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: Roosevelt University, which is also in Chicago. I guess he 107 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: studied English for a full three years there. And this 108 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: last attempt at college life at Roosevelt was probably the 109 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: most crucial for Shell because it was actually where he 110 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: first started writing and cartooning for the school paper. And 111 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: of course, his flair for flaunting authority and you know, 112 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: all those established norms was even there in his earliest work. 113 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: So we found the first cartoon he ever published, and 114 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: it shows this naked student smoking a cigarette in front 115 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: of this angry professor, and the caption just reads, what 116 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: do you mean no smoking? I thought this was a 117 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: liberal school. I do kind of like that. There's that 118 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: hint of his absurd ast slant, you know, right there, 119 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. But I'm curious though. It sounds 120 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: like Silverstein finally found a decent fit or a home 121 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: there at Roosevelt. So did he eventually get his degree there? No, 122 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: he never did. Actually, Uh, it wasn't his fault this time, 123 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: like before, Shell had the chance to finish he was 124 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: drafted into the Korean War. This was in a I 125 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: think in nineteen three, and of course Shell being Shell, 126 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's no guarantee he would have finished college anyway. 127 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: He implied at one point that you probably wouldn't have. 128 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: But his time in the army actually proved just as formative. 129 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: It gave him the chance to earn his first art 130 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: based paycheck. And this is while working as a cartoonist 131 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: for the Stars and Strips military newspaper. Actually, you know 132 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: what I remember reading about this. What wasn't he like 133 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: court martialed or something for his work on that paper? Yeah? 134 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: Almost so. Apparently one of the cartoons he did for 135 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: the paper implied that officers were clothing their families with 136 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of like stolen uniforms, and of course the 137 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: higher ups didn't find it very funny. And in the 138 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: end Shell actually just narrowly avoided the court martial. He 139 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: didn't by agreeing that the future strips would only lampoon 140 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: civilians and animals and not as fellow soldiers. And that 141 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: makes sense because you know, if you think about if 142 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: anybody needs to be taken down a peg, it's animals. 143 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about this, but I 144 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: do feel the same way, right, So all right, So 145 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: so now we're getting to the point where Silverstein's career 146 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: really begins to take shape. So he was discharged in ninetive. 147 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: He goes back to Chicago and he starts working as 148 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: a freelance cartoonist and and it actually goes pretty well 149 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: for a while. So he lands a few gigs at 150 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: places like Sports Illustrated and Look magazine. But from this 151 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: he doesn't really get a whole lot of acclaim for 152 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: these jobs, and you know, none of its steady work. 153 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: But then in nineteen fifty seven, Silverstein catches his big 154 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: break and he becomes the resident cartoonist for Playboy. Now 155 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: the magazine had premiered just a couple of years before, 156 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: so you know, Silverstein was really able to get in 157 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: on the ground floor. But it actually wasn't some sort 158 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: of short lived stint on his way to, you know, 159 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: like later fame as a children's author. In fact, Silverstein's 160 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: cartoons appeared in every single issue of Playboy from nineteen 161 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: fifty seven all the way through the mid seventies. So 162 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: we're talking almost a couple of decades. That's crazy. So 163 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: I knew he worked at Playboy, and I just assumed, 164 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, like he's from Chicago. Playboy got his start 165 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: in Chicago, so so that makes sense. But I had 166 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: no idea that his adults only phase in his career 167 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: actually overlapped with his children's face. I mean, the Giving 168 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: Treaty was published in the sixties, so it's wild to 169 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: think he was still a Playboy employee during this time. Yeah. 170 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: And actually there's even more overlapped than that, because in 171 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one, the adult magazine published its first ever 172 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: children's work, and I say that in Quotations, which was 173 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: called Uncle Shelby's a b Z Book, and soon after 174 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: it appeared in Playboy. Silverstein actually published this separately as 175 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: his first book. So something tells me this wasn't really 176 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: a kid's book right now. It definitely wasn't. I mean, 177 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: the tagline claimed it was quote a primer for young minds, 178 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: but you wouldn't get too far into it before realizing 179 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: it was anything but that. So the idea is that, 180 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: you know, it was one of these children's Learned the 181 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: Alphabet books where every page gives you a letter and 182 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: then an ad collustration and like this little mnemonic device 183 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: to help kids learn the letters and how they're used. 184 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: But that really wasn't the goal in Uncle Shelby's case, 185 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: and instead the book to use associations that targeted the 186 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: insecurities and gullibility of children and kind of tried to 187 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: spur them into all kinds of mischief. So just just 188 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: to give a couple examples of this, you know, one 189 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: entry encouraged kids to hurl eggs at the ceiling in 190 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: order to feed the magic genie Ernie who lives there, 191 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: I guess. And another one advised kids to pretend to 192 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: drink lie if they were ever craving candy, because you know, 193 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: after the doctor pumps their stomach, he'll give you a 194 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: nice red lollipop. But anyway, but one of my favorites 195 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: is probably the entry for the letter B, and it 196 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: includes the lines see the baby play play baby, play 197 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: pretty pretty baby. Mommy loves the baby more than she 198 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: loves you. I mean, it's obviously horrible, and you know 199 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: this is clearly satire, and and the book wasn't meant 200 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: for kids in the slightest, but you just have to 201 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: know that some clueless parents bought this book for their 202 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: kids at some point, right, Oh, absolutely, And in fact, 203 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: those misunderstandings happen often enough that from onward. The print 204 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: edition of the book actually includes a stamp right on 205 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: the front cover and what it says is a primer 206 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: for adults only. I love that, Like, instead of taking 207 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 1: it out in circulation, they just put a stamp on it. 208 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: But what's interesting to me is that, you know what 209 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: a tongue in cheek book like this says about Shell's 210 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: view of children's literature. I mean, it's no secret that 211 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: he hated the way most children's authors condescended to their audience. 212 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: Like he sometimes spoke about the way that the scarier 213 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: elements and classic fairy tales are toned down to make 214 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: the stories I guess like fluffier and more kid friendly. 215 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: And he actually saw this as a form of censorship, 216 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: which is a viewpoint that seems to have informed this 217 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 1: a b C book. Well, if you think about it, 218 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, what better way to push against the status 219 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: quote of children's books than to just write your own 220 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: and do what you want with it. But you know, 221 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: according to Silverstein, it was actually a friend and fellow 222 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: illustrator named Tomy Unger who helped him do just that. 223 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,479 Speaker 1: And by helped, I really mean forced, because, as Silverstein 224 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: later said that his friend quote practically dragged me kicking 225 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: and screaming and to editor Ursula Nordstrom's office, and Nordstrom 226 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: convinced me that Tomy was right. I could do children's books. 227 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: And so for his first book, Silverstein made kind of 228 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: a bold move and stuck to the Uncle Shelby persona 229 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: he had created for Playboy. It's just so strange what 230 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: he did, but he called it Uncle Shelby's story of Lofcadio, 231 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: the Lion who Shot Back, And it was an appropriately 232 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: twisted tale about this marshmallow loving lion who becomes a 233 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,719 Speaker 1: famous marksman and as kind of an identity crisis as 234 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: a result of all this, saying, you know, you know, 235 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: the kind of the standard children's stuff about life crisis 236 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: is and things like that. Sure, so look, Kadya is 237 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: one of Shell's lesser known works. But it doesn't predate 238 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: The Giving Tree by all that much, right, Like, I'm 239 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: pretty sure it came out just like a year later 240 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: or something. Well, you're you're half right about that. So 241 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 1: silver Team did write The Giving Tree a year after 242 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: his first book, along with a third title that's called 243 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,719 Speaker 1: A Giraffe and a Half. But you know what, while 244 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: the story of This Generous Apple Tree would eventually become 245 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: his most popular book, at the time it was written, 246 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: actually no publisher would touch it. It was a full 247 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: year until somebody finally came around, and this was HarperCollins. 248 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're familiar with the book, you can 249 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: kind of see why this was. You know, it's not 250 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: a very happy story, and in fact, it's downright sad 251 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: in some places. And if you're looking for a moral 252 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: to the story, it's pretty ambiguous at best. I would say, no, 253 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: that's true. And and when you think about it, that's 254 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: totally aligned with Shells m o. Right, like as this 255 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: new kind of children's author, like he ever wanted to 256 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: talk down to child readers or sugarcoat the world for them, 257 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,599 Speaker 1: and instead he was kind of trying to bridge the 258 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: gap between adult and children's writing. Well that's a good point, 259 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: and you know, from the publisher's perspective, though, the story 260 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: was sort of stranded somewhere in the middle of that bridge. 261 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: You know, for example, it was kind of interesting to 262 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: just to see how different editors reacted to it. So 263 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: there was one from Simon and Schuster who rejected the book, 264 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: and he said, it's not a kid's book. It's too sad, 265 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: and it isn't for adults either, it's too simple. And 266 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: you know this other editor that just kind of went 267 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: straight to the chase here in his response, and he 268 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: said that Tree is sick neurotic. Well, I mean, plenty 269 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: of people would probably agree with that take, but we'll 270 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: save the controversy for later. For now, I do think 271 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: it's worth mentioning that Shell definitely got the last laugh. 272 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: You know. Uh, if you fast forward to today, the 273 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: Giving Tree has actually become one of the all time 274 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: children's classics. And not only is it sold nearly ten 275 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: million copies, it's also been translated into no fewer than 276 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: thirty different languages. Thirty different languages. I mean, not too 277 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: shabby for this sick neurotic Apple Tree, Really not at all. 278 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: And I do want to spend some time on the 279 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: psychology behind Shell's writing and how that relates to the 280 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: controversy we touched on. But I also think we'd be 281 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: doing our listeners a real disservice if we didn't talk 282 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: at least a little bit about Silverstein's bizarre stint as 283 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: a songwriter. Alright, one with you on that, So let's 284 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: do that. But before we get to it, let's take 285 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: a quick break. You're listening to Part Time Genius and 286 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about the strange life and times of Shell's Silverstein, 287 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: And if you ask me, one of the strangest times 288 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: in his life by far, was this period between nineteen 289 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: fifty nine in the mid nineteen seventies when he actually 290 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: enjoyed a pretty successful music career. I mean, particularly as 291 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: a songwriter. And I don't I don't think most people 292 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: know this. Yeah, I'd have to agree. I mean, it 293 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: makes sense that his knack for poetry would translate a songwriting, 294 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: but it's still amazing just how well he pulled off 295 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: that transition. I mean, as a singer, he didn't have 296 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: much success. His voice was, I guess too raspy and 297 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: jarring for most people's ears, even though he actually does 298 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: have a dozen albums. But when he committed to songwriting, 299 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: things really took off for him, and by the end 300 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: of his life he'd written more than eight hundred songs. 301 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, many of these were recorded and performed by 302 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: some pretty famous artists. Like Willie Jennings, Willie Nelson, Jerry Lewis, 303 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: even Johnny Cash. That's a pretty incredible lineup. And actually 304 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: he even won a Grammy for the song he wrote 305 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: for Johnny Cash, which was a boy named who. You've 306 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: heard this song right now? Yeah, of course, but I 307 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: didn't know Shell Silverstein wrote it until recently. Like, it 308 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: makes perfect sense in hindsight, right, Like, it's such a 309 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: deeply silly song and it still has a sense of 310 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: danger to it, so it really fits right into Shell's repertoire. Yeah, 311 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: it's true for anybody who might not have heard it before. 312 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: The song is about a boy who was named Sue 313 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: by his absentee father, and he gets picked on all 314 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: his life for having a girl's name, so much so 315 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: that one day Sue tracks down his dad and threatens 316 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: to kill him. And at that point, that's when the 317 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: dad reveals that he only named his son Sue because 318 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: he wanted to make him tough, I guess, by forcing 319 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: him to stand up for himself, you know, whenever somebody 320 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: made fun of him. Anyway, Sue gets on board with 321 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: this explanation and all is forgiven between he and his dad, 322 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: you know. But the thing that most people don't know 323 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: is that Silverstein actually wrote a sequel to the song 324 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: as well. It was called Father of a Boy Named Sue. 325 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: But you will not find this song on a Johnny 326 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: Cash album. I mean, the darkness of this song it 327 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: actually kind of eclipses the silliness and the other one. 328 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: So Silverstein wound up singing it himself, which which probably 329 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: explains why so few people actually know about So I'm 330 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: actually a little afraid to ask me. You can't just 331 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: leave us hanging like that. So what makes it so 332 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: much darker? Well, first of all, the sequel is told 333 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: from the dad's point of view, and it's basically him 334 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: setting the record straight on what happened in the first song. So, 335 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: for example, he reveals that he actually named his son Sue, 336 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: not to toughen him up, but his revenge for all 337 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: those times the boys screamed and cried and all these 338 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: fits is a baby, which you know, of course, seems 339 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: perfectly fair, right yeah, it feels like a totally appropriate 340 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: response to like a baby acting like a baby, right right, Well, 341 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: it gets decidedly inappropriate from there, So I'm not going 342 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: to go into details. You can track down the song 343 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: for yourself if you dare to do so. But let's 344 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: just say the character's relationship goes from unhealthy to something 345 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,640 Speaker 1: much much worse. Oh no, I mean you can kind 346 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: of see why Johnny Cash might have taken a pass 347 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: on that, right, Oh yeah, for sure. And I mean 348 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: it really is sort of a weird thing to think 349 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: about something that dark coming from the mind of a 350 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: celebrated children's author. But honestly, I mean that kind of 351 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: black humor pops up a lot on the poems he 352 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: wrote for kids. I was just looking at some examples 353 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: of this, and you know, one of the best is 354 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: probably the poem called Dreadful. And this comes from where 355 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: the sidewalk ins. And it's pretty short, so I'll just 356 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: read it real quick. Here it goes, someone ain't the 357 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: baby baby? What a frightful thing to eat? Someone ate 358 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: the baby though she wasn't very sweet, It was a 359 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: heartless thing to do. The policeman haven't got a clue. 360 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: I simply can't imagine who would go and burp eat 361 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: the baby. I mean, I do understand why some parents 362 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 1: might not approve that one. You know, most of us 363 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: tend to frown on baby eating, after all, but on 364 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: the other hand, like the poem is clever, it's funny, 365 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: it seems pretty harmless on and all. And you know, I, 366 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: I know people have accused Silverstein's poetry of being a 367 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: bad influence, but like, does anyone really think their kids 368 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: gonna go cannibal after hearing them? I mean, I know 369 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,719 Speaker 1: what you mean, but it did get me wondering, like 370 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: what it is about Silverstein's poetry that kids find so 371 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: inherently appealing, you know, despite how dark it can get sometimes. 372 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: And what I found is that it partly comes down 373 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: to how kids respond to poetry in general. All kinds 374 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: of psychological studies have shown that connection between music and 375 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: an infant's development of their language, and according to this 376 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: article from Frontiers and Psychology, quote the further removed a 377 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: feature of languages from music the later it is learned. 378 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: So the idea that kids respond so well the poetry 379 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: because it's the most musical of the language based arts, 380 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: it just just kind of makes sense. That's really fascinating, 381 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: because you know, if it's the musicality they're responding to, 382 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: then a lot of the appeal is probably in the 383 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: sounds that are voices make, rather than the words themselves. 384 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: And I guess that makes sense, given how like children's 385 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: poetry usually plays up these acoustical aspects like rhythm or rhyme. 386 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: It's certainly more than most adult poetry does, I guess. Yeah. 387 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: And I think most children's poets have to know that 388 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,200 Speaker 1: their work will be read aloud, so it makes sense 389 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: that they try to craft these highly musical verses, since 390 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, those are the most fun, both both to 391 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: hear and to to listen to. Yeah, and obviously shel 392 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: Silverstein did just that. But you know, I don't think 393 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: it's just the musicality of his writing that's endeared him 394 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: to so many generations of young readers, like silliness and cleverness. 395 00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: Obviously that has a lot to do with it. But 396 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: if you ask me, the thing that really wins kids 397 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: over are those hints of menace and sadness that underlines 398 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: so much of his work. Like Where the Sidewalk Ins 399 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: is such a melancholy poem, and even as a concept, 400 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: it sounds sort of foreboding. Yeah, and is that what 401 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: you think kids like about it? I mean, I know 402 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 1: kids get a kick out of scaring themselves, just like 403 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: adults too, you know, And of course, as long as 404 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 1: it's the right amount of scare and they don't feel 405 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: like they're in danger or anything. But but why would 406 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: something sad or upsetting be that appealing to them? I mean, 407 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: it's what you're saying about the right amount, right, Like, 408 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 1: I think kids will kind of appreciate and react to 409 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: the honesty of something like that, Like maybe even if 410 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: it's just on a subconscious level, they recognize that even 411 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: though the author is writing for them, he isn't really 412 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: treating them like kids. And actually, to go along with that, 413 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: there's this great quote I want to read from The 414 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: Daily Beast, and it's this article I found it. It's 415 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: about why the less than sunny worlds of some children's 416 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: books resonate so deeply with kids. So it says, uh, 417 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: small and effectively powerless against the whims of adults contested bedtimes. Notwithstanding, 418 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: children are buffeted by the currents of a large world, 419 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: they often do not understand A book without fear is 420 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: an unbelievable book, sounding a dull note that soon fades. 421 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that does make a lot of sense, And 422 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: you think about other authors like Maury Sindac or Rold Doll, 423 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: even Dr Seuss. I mean, they were all kind of 424 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: keyed into that idea, you know, that not having to 425 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: pretend the world is this completely safe and happy all 426 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: the time place when when they were writing for kids. 427 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: And actually even that Tony Unger that we talked about earlier, 428 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: the one who helped convince Silverstein to try his hand 429 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: at kids writing, he was famous in France for his 430 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: own unsettling children's fiction. You know, I'm actually glad you 431 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: brought him up again because Hunger was also a big 432 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: inspiration behind Maury sindex work, and he doesn't get nearly 433 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: as much credit as he should. Also, speaking of Sindac, 434 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: did did you know that he and Silverstein shared the 435 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: same long time time editor. That yeah, that that woman 436 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: Ursula Nordstrom you mentioned She worked with both of them 437 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: for decades, which makes sense because you know, apparently her 438 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: self stated mission was to publish quote, good books for 439 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: bad children. Oh I love that. Well, you know, given that, 440 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: now seems like a good time to talk about the 441 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 1: controversy Silverstein's writing is kicked up over the years, as 442 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: as well as his legacy in general. That sounds great, 443 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 1: But but first I do want to read another quick 444 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: poem from sidewalk, because it really goes a long way 445 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: towards explaining how Silverstein approach writing for children. It's called 446 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: the Land of Happy, and it goes quote, have you 447 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: been to the land of Happy? Where everyone's happy all day? 448 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 1: Where they joke and they sing the happiest things, and 449 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: everyone's jolly and gay. There's no one unhappy and happy. 450 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: There's laughter and smiles galore. I have been to the 451 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: land of Happy? What a bore? Well, I can't argue 452 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: with that. All right, well, we do want to talk 453 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: about that controversy. But before we get to that, let's 454 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: take one more quick break. Okay, mango, So let's get 455 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: to the controversial and talk about why a growing number 456 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: of parents are banning Shells Silverstein from their children's bookshelves. 457 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, is it still just the idea that 458 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: his books promote bad behavior or is there more to 459 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: it than this? Well, I I do think that's part 460 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: of it. I think some parents still have this old 461 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: school approach to children's lit where they they expected to 462 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: be completely edifying or you know, not really have those 463 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: sharp edges. And of course they're going to have this 464 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: negative reaction to an author who has no bones about 465 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: presenting these grown up ideas or all these problems in 466 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: ways that are I guess approachable to kids. And then 467 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,639 Speaker 1: there are the folks who take offense to specific poems 468 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: from a light in the attic or where the sidewalk ends, 469 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: like you know that baby eating one you read earlier. 470 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: But for the most part, people's biggest beef with silver 471 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: scene is usually the message or even the potential lack 472 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: of one in the giving tree. All right, Well, on 473 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: the off chance that there's somebody listening that isn't familiar 474 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: with this story, I feel like we should give a 475 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: quick rundown of what happened. So it's basically the story 476 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: of a little boy who grows up with this sentient 477 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: tree for a companion, and at different stages in the 478 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 1: boy's life, the tree gives him whatever he needs to 479 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: have this safer, easier life. You know that. That's leaves 480 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: or branches or apples, pretty much all the things a 481 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: tree could realistically provide to someone. And the whole time, 482 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: the tree is personified as sort of a weary, kind 483 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: of like a put upon woman. And I say woman 484 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: because it's referred to with female pronouns, and she's constantly 485 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: nurturing him, with little concern for her own happiness or 486 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: well being. She keeps giving, the boy keeps taking, and 487 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, his lot improves as a result of all 488 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: these interactions, but the trees really doesn't. So in the 489 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 1: end there's nothing left of the giving tree but this stump. 490 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: And you know, even then, it's offered up to the boy, 491 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: who's now an old man at this point, as a 492 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: place to sit and rest. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously 493 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: a feel good story all around. I mean that description 494 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: alone probably says a lot about why some people are 495 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 1: so put off by this book. And at a glance, 496 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: you might think it's a simple story of unconditional love, 497 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 1: which could easily make the tree in allegory for lots 498 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: of things. It could be like friendship for marriage, parenthood, god, 499 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: you know whatever. But then you remember that like love 500 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: is meant to go both ways, you know, ideally, it's 501 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: never supposed to be one party, always taking into other, 502 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: always giving. I mean, even for parents, where so much 503 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: of your time and energy are devoted to your kids, 504 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: it's not like we get nothing in return for all 505 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: that effort. Yeah. I was actually reading this cracked article 506 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: that claimed the story's message was one of two things. 507 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: So the first one they said that it might be 508 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: is your parents exist only to serve you and then die, 509 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: So that's the first And then or or if the 510 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 1: tree doesn't symbolize the parent, then the message amounts to 511 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: eventually something will come along that bleeds you dry. And 512 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: that's just how it is. And of course neither of 513 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: those are very good messages for children or for adults 514 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: for that matter. No, definitely not. And and give it 515 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: all that, it's easy to see why people might worry 516 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 1: that the book more or less glorifies an abusive relationship. 517 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: But I think the mistake is to assume that Silverstein 518 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: overlooked that reading, or that he might have intended as 519 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: a way to mislead kids into either accepting or I guess, 520 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: inflicting that kind of one sided relationship. So I mean, 521 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: and thinking about do you think Silverstein intended the story 522 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: to be upsetting on some level, like kind of a 523 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,480 Speaker 1: cautionary tale or something. Yeah, I mean, I think it's 524 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: highly possible. But whatever the case, I don't think he 525 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: meant it as this straightforward story about selflessness or that 526 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: we're meant to approve of the boy's actions, or feel 527 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: happy that the tree is reduced to a stump by 528 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: the end of the book. I mean, people have always 529 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 1: grasped that there's something off about this story. I mean, 530 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: just think about that publisher whose first reaction was that 531 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: the tree was not behaving in a healthy way or heck, 532 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: I and look at Bart Simpson. You know how there's 533 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: that running gag on the show where he has to 534 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: write something repeatedly on the chalkboard is like punishment of course. Yeah, yeah, 535 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: I mean in one episode he writes, the giving tree 536 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: is not a chump. So even someone as disinterested as 537 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: you know, Bart Simpson is in reading knew something weird 538 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: was going on there. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny 539 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: because we've mostly been talking about parents reactions to the book, 540 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: and in a lot of cases there are people who 541 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: have returned to the book after reading it as kids themselves, 542 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: and suddenly they're finding it maybe wasn't this clear cut 543 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: story of sacrifice that they remember from childhood. So, for instance, 544 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: I read this article on the Huffington Post about a 545 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: woman who reread the story as a parent, and it 546 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: just launched her into this existential crisis, and she was 547 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: asking you know, am I the tree? Am I the boy? 548 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, And she's just panicked about this. But 549 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,239 Speaker 1: you know, here's the thing I found remarkable. You know 550 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: that that while the book left this mother with a 551 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: million heavy questions about herself and the way of the 552 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: world and responsibility to one another and all these different things, 553 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: her children seemed to grasp the stories lessons just instinctually. 554 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: So as she writes about it, she says, they knew 555 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: it was wrong to keep asking without offering in return. 556 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: They thought the boy was selfish, they thought he was careless. 557 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 1: They were heartbroken over lost things, the trees, sad remains. 558 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: Maybe they cried for the impossible, far off promise that 559 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: endings were inevitable, that in the end, all were reduced 560 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: to or judged by are the people we love and 561 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: the people who loved us. Now I don't get it, 562 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: But even though they can't put it into words, my 563 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: children do. Hm. I mean, that's really beautiful. And it 564 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: does say so much about the innocence of kids that 565 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: a story that seems so morally ambiguous to adults like 566 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: would just make perfect sense to them. Oh. Absolutely. And 567 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: I think it's also important that these kids not only 568 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: recognized that the story has this sad ending, but you know, 569 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: they accepted that and still enjoyed the story regardless. Like 570 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: that's just just a nice piece of validation for Silverstein. 571 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: And he actually went on record with The New York 572 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: Times about how much he disliked happy endings in these 573 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: children's stories. He told the reporter that happy endings, quote, 574 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: create an alienation. The child asked, why don't have this 575 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: happiness thing you're telling me about and comes to think 576 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: when his joy stops that he has failed, that it 577 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: won't come back. Yeah, I mean, I guess it goes 578 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: back to that revolutionary idea of his about being honest 579 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: with children. I mean, of course, our gut reaction is 580 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: to try and spare our kids the pain of sad 581 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: unhappy endings whenever possible, But in practice that just leaves 582 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 1: them with this incomplete view of the world, which is 583 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: way worse than a few tears in the long run. Yeah, 584 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean that that sounds right to me. But you know, 585 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: let's give Shell himself the last word on the matter. 586 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: So his family released the posthumous collection of some of 587 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: his unpublished poems back in two thousand eleven, and here's 588 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: one poem in particular that really says it all. It's 589 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: called happy Ending, and it goes, there are no happy endings. 590 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 1: Endings are the saddest part. So give me a happy 591 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: middle and a very happy start. I love that. But 592 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: what do you say we put Chelse Silverstine's theory to 593 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: the test and try to close the show with the 594 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: happiest fact off we can muster? All right, I'm getting 595 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: for that. I mean, it might not be a happy ending, 596 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: but but it has worked for us so far. So 597 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: one of his most famous poetry collections, and one of 598 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: my favorites of his work, A Lad in the Attic, 599 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 1: was actually one of the hundred most challenged materials in 600 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: the nineties according to the American Library Association. And it's 601 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: funny because some critics felt that in the book he 602 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: quote glorified Satan suicide, cannibalism, and also encouraged children to 603 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: be disobedient. Man, he really accomplished a lot in one. 604 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: You know. I think it's interesting that one of his 605 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: cartoons has supposed have been used in the psychological tests, 606 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, to test how optimistic someone is. That's cartoon. 607 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: You may have seen it before, but it's the cover 608 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: of a collection of his comments that he created over 609 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: the years, and these were mostly for Playboy. Now, in 610 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: the comic, you see two prisoners shackle to the wall, 611 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: and they're not doing well, and it doesn't look like 612 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: there's any hope of them getting out. And there's this 613 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: incredibly high ceiling where you see the only window to 614 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 1: the outside world, but even that is heavily barred. But 615 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: the only words you see are from one prisoner looking 616 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: at the other end, saying, now here's my plan. So 617 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: I mean. The book was actually called that now Here's 618 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: my Plan, a book of futilities. And when Silverstein was 619 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: asked about how so many people have used the cartoon 620 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: to interpret different things, he said, you do something, you 621 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: make it simple, and everybody else starts loading it up 622 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: with deep meanings, which is okay by me if they 623 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: want to do that. Everybody loves Roor Scheck tests well. 624 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 1: Shell did not love to be pinned down. He never 625 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: owned a are and and for many years one of 626 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: the main homes he lived in was a house boat, 627 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: and speaking in an interview with Publishers Weekly, he said, quote, 628 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: I'm free to leave go wherever I please, do whatever 629 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: I want. I believe everyone should live like that. Don't 630 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 1: be dependent on anyone else, man, woman, child or dog. 631 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: I want to go everywhere, look at and listen to everything. 632 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: You can go crazy with some of the wonderful stuff 633 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: there is in life. All right. Well, Shell never read 634 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: reviews about his books or any of his other works, 635 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: And here's what he had to say about that quote. 636 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: I think if you're a creative person, you should just 637 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: go about your business, do your work, and not care 638 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: how it's received. I never read reviews because if you 639 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: believe the good ones, you have to believe the bad 640 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: ones too. Not that I don't care about success. I do, 641 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: but only because it lets me do what I want. 642 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: So I think it's fun that over the years we've 643 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: used a Shell Silverstein poem to describe our philosophy on 644 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: making fun things like whether that was metal floss or 645 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: board games or books or whatever. And it's a poem 646 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: called put something in it goes, Draw a crazy picture, 647 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: write a nutty poem, sing a mumble gumble song, whistle 648 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: through your comb, do a loony, goony dance, cross the 649 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: kitchen floor. Put something silly in the world that ain't 650 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: been there before. You beat me to it Mango. I 651 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: was actually going to share that poem, so I've got 652 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: to give you today's fact Off trophy because that's one 653 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,959 Speaker 1: of my favorites of his. Oh, thank you so much. Well, 654 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: And I do want to say today's show and and 655 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: My Farm particular was recorded at Mouth Media Network Studio 656 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 1: in New York City, which is powered by Sennheiser. You 657 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: can learn more about Mouth Media at Mouth Media Network 658 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: dot com. So, listeners, I'm sure we've forgotten some great 659 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: facts about shel Silverstein and we would love to hear 660 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: those from. You can always email us part Time Genius 661 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: at how stuff Works dot com or call us on 662 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: our seven fact hot line that's one eight six pt Genius, 663 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: or you can hit us up on Facebook or Twitter. 664 00:33:54,600 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: But thanks so much for listening. Yeah, thanks again for listening. 665 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of How Stuff Works 666 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do 667 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan 668 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme 669 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: song and does the MIXI mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland 670 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gabe Bluesier is our lead researcher, 671 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan 672 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets the 673 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like 674 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if you 675 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave 676 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do we forget Jason? 677 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: Jason who