1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hey you, Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: Time to go into the Old Vault. This time we're 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: going in for part two of last week's Vault episode 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: of You and Christian exploring Dr John d the Wizard 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: of the sixteenth century. Yeah, fascinating character, a character that 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: came up in there are recent episodes on the Bonage 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: Manuscript and uh and the sort of figure that I 9 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: think likely even very well may come up again someday. 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: Just such a fascinating figure, interested and seemingly everything, both 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: natural world enigmas as well as a cult mysteries. And uh. Yeah, 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: so let's dive right in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: your Mind. From how Stuff Works dot com. There is, 14 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: gentle reader, nothing the works of God only set apart, 15 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: which so much beautifies and adorns the soul and mind 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: of man, as does knowledge of the good arts and sciences. 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: Many arts there are which beautify the mind of man, 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: But of all none do more garnish and beautify it 19 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: than those arts which are called and mathematical, unto the 20 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: knowledge of which no man can attain without perfect knowledge 21 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: and instruction of the principles, grounds and elements of geometry. Hey, 22 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My name is 23 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and my name is Christian Seger. And if 24 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: last episode sounded like we were invoking a ritual to 25 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: summon angels or demons, this sounds like we are teaching 26 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: ap calculus. Yeah. That that those are the words of 27 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: Dr John D. Those are from his preface, his mathematical 28 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: preface to the fifeventy translation of Euclid's Elements. Now, at 29 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: this point we should we should mention that if you 30 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: did not listen to our previous episode on John D, 31 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: you definitely need to go back to that one, because 32 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: that that is the episode where we we really dove 33 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: into his timeline and discussed in broad strokes the major 34 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: events of his life. Yeah. We also focused on the 35 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: sort of magical occult aspects of John D's beliefs and 36 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: life in that episode. This episode, we're really going to 37 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: focus on his scientific education, his ability with mathematics, um, 38 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: how he participated in state craft in England and in 39 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:46,959 Speaker 1: fact advocated for expanding the British Empire and especially developed 40 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: cryptography as we know it today. Yeah, and it's it's 41 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: interesting too, and that even though you know, in a sense, 42 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: the last episode was magic and this one is the 43 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: is the science. This is more rooted in the real world. 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: Old John d was not so firmly rooted. He seemed 45 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: to to live simultaneously in the mathematical and the magical world. 46 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: He did not really see a division like like the spiritual, 47 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: the mathematical, the magic. It was all part of the 48 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 1: world as he perceived it. Yeah, so get ready, as 49 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about this stuff, it may seem like, oh, 50 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: we're going over some historical science here, and then all 51 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, Merlin will pop up or 52 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: maybe some angelic influence here there. Yeah. Now, it's it's 53 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: really important to note here too though that as unique 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: as D was, this mixing of magic and math, this 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: suspicion of math, even was it was not unique to him. 56 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: It was it was very much a part of the day. Uh. 57 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: Mathematics was regarded in some circles with suspicion at the time. 58 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: During the Tutor era, mathematical books were sometimes burned as 59 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: alleged conjuring books. This according to seventeenth century antiquarian John Aubrey, 60 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: and it was, and it was still very much associated 61 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: with the dark arts. I mean, you have to to 62 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: think Pythagoras Key in the history of mathematics was also 63 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: considered a magician. Uh numbers had inherent powers, and this 64 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: is a theme that ran through the works of Kepler, Newton, Euclid, 65 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: and others. So there was a long tradition of of 66 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: mathematics and and magic kind of sharing the same space. 67 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that I read was that mathematics 68 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: were considered disreputable and connected to witchcraft because they were 69 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: associated with numerology. And I mentioned this in the last 70 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: episode the Jewish mystical tradition of the kabbala uh And 71 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about the cryptography stuff in a minute. 72 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: But tri Themius, who wrote the book that D really 73 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: worked off of to create his version of cryptography, that 74 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: guy was also suspected of wizardry. So this had a 75 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: long standing tradition. Uh D for his part, though, in 76 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: terms of mathematics, his lectures on Euclid were wildly popular, 77 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,359 Speaker 1: as he was seen as a leading scientific figure of 78 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: his day. I'm picturing that he's like the Neil deGrasse Tyson, right, 79 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: Like he's he's giving lectures. Everybody's really interested. Uh. These 80 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: lectures earned him an offer to join the faculty at 81 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 1: the Sorbonne in Paris in fifteen fifty one. We mentioned 82 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: that real briefly last time, but he turned stuff like 83 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: this down because he was hoping to obtain an official 84 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: position with the English Crown. He was also Robert read 85 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: from this at the beginning, but it's worth pointing out 86 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: the editor of the first English translation of Euclid's Elements, 87 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: and in that he added his preface, which what Robert 88 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: read came from. This preface argued for the usefulness of mathematics, 89 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: like people didn't regard mathematics as being important at that time, 90 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: and in fact, this was the first time the public 91 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: were introduced to the symbols plus minus, x, fra multiply 92 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: and the little dot dash dot for division. Yeah. In 93 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: this uh, this this preface, the mathematical preface. He proposed 94 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: an arts mathematical that he compared to thomaturgy, which is 95 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: a the use of magic for religious purposes. So he 96 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: saw mathematics, rather than magic, as the key to thomaturgical 97 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,279 Speaker 1: wonder Men's work could rival the gods if they could 98 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: utilize mathematics correctly, and and in this, you know, you 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: could say d was correct. And we may disagree on 100 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: whether math is a human invention or human discovery, but 101 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: it has thus far proven to correspond to the inner 102 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: workings of the cosmos. It's our our best tool. Essentially. 103 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: He saw this reflected in the creation of automatons, those 104 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: of Alberta's Magnus uh and others. So, you know, all 105 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: these various mechanical devices that mimicked the the appearance of life, 106 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: and the movement and the and the willfulness of life. 107 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: And in fact, that's where that uh, his FX work 108 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: in fifty six comes into play. That's what he was 109 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 1: essentially dabbling in. Yeah, we talked about this in the 110 00:07:06,680 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: last episode. He apparently created this giant automaton. Reportedly it 111 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: was a mechanical flying beetle. I don't know if it 112 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: actually flew or not, but apparently it was. It was 113 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: so impressive that people thought that it was magic. Yeah, 114 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: and that was very much in keeping with his view 115 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: of what math was and what what science was was 116 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: capable of doing. That it could replicate the wonders of 117 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: nature by manipulating the same properties and he saw. He 118 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: saw things like automatons and even his own special effects work, 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: uh as proof of that. He saw the optics of 120 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: his special mirror is kind of reverse mirror that he 121 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: would wow people with. He saw that as an example 122 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: of look that these amazing feats are possible through optics, 123 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: through mathematics, through science, and ultimately his mathematics led to 124 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: him advocating for the expansion of the British Empire. And 125 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: he reportedly is the one who coined the term British Empire. Yeah, 126 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: which is crazy, and it's also it's it's sometimes you forget, 127 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: like it's it's hard to think back to a time 128 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: where the British Empire wasn't a thing, not only in 129 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: in actuality but even in concept. So we're traveling back 130 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: to seven here, and this is kind of what was 131 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: going on at the time. Sir Francis Drake was preparing 132 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: for an epic voyage around the globe. Um Washingham spies 133 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 1: had exposed another plot against the British Crown, and he 134 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: had noted a significant problematic comment amid the meaning saturated stars. 135 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: And on November twenty eight, amid all of these excitements, 136 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: de comes and he proposes this concept, this idea to 137 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: the Queen of England that she should challenge Spain's imperial 138 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: claim to the New World. Yeah, and a lot of 139 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: this was based around how do I put this? He 140 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: so on top of being a brilliant mathematician, he was 141 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: able to apply that to cartography and mapping out routes 142 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: or understanding the geography of the New World. Yeah, it's 143 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned cartographers here. We mentioned in the past episode 144 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: that that he he'd learned from and was in correspondence 145 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: with with noted cartographer um Garatiscator. Yeah, and uh Mercator 146 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: is apparently the guy who filled him in about this idea, 147 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: that that there was a precedence for the British Empire 148 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: set by a legendary incursion into the northern in drawing 149 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: seas around the Pole by King Arthur in the year 150 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: five thirty lands that had since been claimed by Iberian nations. 151 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: This is where he got the whole idea. He being 152 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: d got the whole idea for him being the modern 153 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: day Merlin and Elizabeth being the modern day Arthur. He 154 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: actually presented Elizabeth with a treatise on Britain's imperial limits 155 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: at one point. And it suggested that the America's had 156 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: actually been discovered by King Arthur centuries before. Yeah, and 157 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 1: and also that the British Empire was already a thing. This, 158 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: this concept is not something that that England could claim 159 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: for itself but reclaimed. This was a this was part 160 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: of its identity already. Yeah. So you might be wondering 161 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: what's a courtier anyways? Right, A lot of people when 162 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: they're describing d they just say, well, he's a courtier. 163 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. Apparently it is a 164 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: man that is concerned with the operation of the Royal 165 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 1: Court and by extension, the Kingdom, of which it was 166 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: an effective ruling body. So it was in his interests 167 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: to make sure that the ruling body of Britain expanded. Yeah, 168 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought up the court as well, because 169 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: the court at the time was was was lavish and uh, 170 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, rather impressive to behold, but at the same 171 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: time it was horriblely in debt. The likewise, the English 172 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: military was weak, the political condition was far from stable, 173 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: where England was a relatively poor nation, and the idea 174 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: of challenging Spain Imperial Spain in such a manner was 175 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: was highly ambitious, if not outright ridiculous. Remember, at the 176 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: time there was a there was a Papal bull Uh 177 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: dividing the Americas between the Spanish and the Portuguese. So 178 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 1: it wasn't just that England should challenge Spain. It was 179 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: that English England should challenge the papacy's division of the globe. 180 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: This was this was this was not just hey, we're 181 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: we're we're pretty awesome. We should go over and claim this. 182 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: It's like, no, we This involves a leveling up of 183 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: the nation that might not be practical and it worked. Yeah. Um. 184 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: And for his part, the way that de assisted was 185 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: with his knowledge of cartography and mathematical modeling. So he 186 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: instructed captains and pilots in the samples of mathematical navigation. 187 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: He would prepare maps for their use, and he furnished 188 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: them with various navigational instruments. In the fifteen fifties he 189 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: actually advised Richard Chancellor's expedition through the North Sea so 190 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: that he could establish a trade route between England and Moscow. 191 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: And there's there's some evidence that d was I guess 192 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: uh financially involved in that as well. Like he had 193 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: he had something to gain from this um trade route. 194 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 1: In fifteen seventy two, a new star appeared and it 195 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: was visible for seventeen months. Now today we know that 196 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: this was a supernova in the constellation Cassiopeia. Uh D 197 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: saw this as the signal for the beginning of the 198 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 1: English Protestant Empire, and so he also instructed an expedition 199 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: to discover the Northwest Passage to China in fifteen seventies six. Now, 200 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: I've talked a lot about Northwest passages befo the or 201 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: the Northwest pas Sage and expeditions through it before on 202 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: the show, because I've done research on the past. Um 203 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: you know, like like almost all of these, it was 204 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: totally fruitless, but it did lead to English settlements in 205 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: Canadian North America. And this is where it gets crazy. 206 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: Deformed his own company to colonize the America's and there's 207 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: some evidence that he was the intellectual force behind Francis 208 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: Drake's circumnavigation of the globe, and d would be awarded 209 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: rights to any new newly discovered land that was north 210 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: of the fiftieth parallel. If Drake had gone any further 211 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: north than Oregon. This basically would have given him all 212 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: of Canada. So D would have like, if this had 213 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: all worked out, D would own Canada. How different might 214 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: Canadian history bay if it had been founded by a wizard? 215 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: Right exactly? Um and you know we talked about this 216 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: in the last episode. Uh. You know, D moved his 217 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: family to crack Up Poland and three. A lot of 218 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: it had to do with the whole angela communication thing 219 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: and Lasky and and Kelly as we previously described, but 220 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: some believed that the whole reason he was there was 221 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: actually to act as a spy. Uh. And when the 222 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: Holy Roman Emperor Rudolph the Second suspected D, that's when 223 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: he was banished from the empire and he went to 224 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: a small town called Trebonn in at what the time 225 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: was southern Bohemia. I imagine now it's probably part of 226 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: the Czech Republic or maybe Slovakia. But um uh, this 227 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: is fascinating. That's what gets him kicked out when, as 228 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: we know from last episode, he just basically went up 229 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: to Rudolph and was like, hey, angels told me you're 230 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: possessed by demons, and Rudolph was like whatever. But then 231 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: he's like, maybe this guy's a spy and he gets 232 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: rid of him. Now here's a really fun factor. You ready, 233 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: everybody D signed his letters to Elizabeth as double O seven. Yes, 234 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: secret sign of cipher that at least looked like double os. 235 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, I'm wondering if that's where um uh 236 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: Ian Fleming got the idea for double A seven from, 237 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: or if it's maybe an actual has a historical precedence. 238 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: So I've read two different versions of this. One is 239 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: that Ian Fleming was reading about John D at the 240 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: time directly got this, uh, this idea from these writings. 241 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: And I've also read some people that cast doubt on 242 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: this whole connection say that, oh, well, actually John D 243 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: didn't really use double O seven. So um, I'm not 244 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: sure exactly where the truth lies there somewhere in the middle. 245 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: But but we will get back to this whole spying thing, 246 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: this whole espionage thing, because as incredible as everything has 247 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 1: been thus far, um, it really gets crazier in the 248 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: episode where we're not even talking about angelic communication all that, Like, Okay, 249 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: why don't we take a quick break and when we 250 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about the cryptography aspects 251 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: of the career alright, we're back. So cryptography the the study, 252 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: the creation and the breaking of codes and ciphers. Yeah, 253 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: so we we've already covered this slightly. But D was 254 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: taken with the work of German abbot Trithemius. Uh and 255 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: he was an important figure in the history of cryptography 256 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: as well as occultism. And in fifteen sixty four, while 257 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: D was in Antwerp, he tracked down a copy of 258 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: themis is most famous work, the stick I'm going to 259 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: get this wrong, the Stagana of Grafia, and copied it. 260 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: Now you were telling me that there was this like 261 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,479 Speaker 1: whole weird thing about the copying of it. Oh yeah, yeah, 262 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: it's it's it's pretty strange. So certainly Trithemius was a 263 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: big deal. Again, important figure in the history of cry 264 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: cryptography and occultism and uh and and D was already 265 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: a fan. He owned several copies of is of his 266 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: book Polygraphia, which was the first printed book about the 267 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: subject of cryptography. Uh. Not to say, you know, certainly 268 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,400 Speaker 1: not the first book. It's also worth noting that there 269 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: was there was an Arabic book that that was already 270 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: out there in the world. And this book was by 271 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: a man by the name of al Kindy. But this 272 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: was the first that was, you know, certainly the first 273 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: Western tone dealing with cryptography. Uh. They were twelve rotating 274 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: paper a cipher discs embedded within the pages, and even 275 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: today they're in remarkably good condition. They still turn. Uh. 276 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: So it was a pretty phenomenal book. I'm kind of 277 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: thinking of I don't think you've seen this movie yet, 278 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: but that Doctor Strange movie came up. You saw it, Yeah, 279 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: you know the library and that that's what I'm imagining. Yeah, yeah, 280 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: very much. Yeah, and certainly there's a lot of like 281 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: circular devices and and glyphs that should pop up in 282 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: that movie that that feel aide at home in the 283 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: world of John d except not glowing and spinning in 284 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: the right unless you're talking to Edward Kelly and he 285 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: will say, yeah, I can see those disks probably U. So, yeah, 286 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: he finds out there's a copy of Steganographia out there, 287 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: which was a rare book. It was an essentially an 288 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: an abandoned work of Trithemius is because it dealt with, 289 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: at least on the surface, dealt with angelic communication. It 290 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: dealt with communing of spirits and using spirits to relay 291 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: messages over vast distances. Okay, hold on a second, I 292 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: think I've got a theory here. Let's see if this 293 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: plays out as we're talking more about Trithemius. What if 294 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: so we know that D was really into Trithemius, and 295 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: then he gathered all of this information before he met 296 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: Edward Kelly. What if Edward Kelly was using Trithemius to 297 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: create his version of a Nochian that eventually D wrote 298 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: down and and and hearkened as the Angelic language. Yeah, 299 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: maybe that's it. It sounds it sounds compelling to me. 300 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: I guess I should probably say a little more about 301 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: Trithemius before I go any any further here. But this 302 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: guy alone was pretty fascinating. This was the man who 303 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: served as advisors to emperors, was among the most erudite 304 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: German book collectors of his time, author of more than 305 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: fifty books himself, and the founder of scientific bibliography. He was, 306 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: as previously noted, the first printed author on the subject 307 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: of cryptography in the West. And um and yet then 308 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: here's this book, this seems to be devoted to angelic magic, 309 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: that he was forced to abandon writing because he was 310 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: talking to other people about it, and they were like, Oh, 311 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: I don't know about about this book you're working on Trithemius. Uh. 312 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: Even as he was making writing it, he made claims 313 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: that the text would enable communication over vast distances, to 314 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: communicate one's thoughts by fire and other claims. So basically, 315 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: like other individuals hearing about this, they were like like, well, 316 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: this means this makes it sound like either you're lying 317 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: or you're a demonic sorcerer, right or smiled upon? Yeah, 318 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: not so much in the in the church. So the 319 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: crazy thing is that over the centuries, it's been revealed 320 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: that all three volumes of this work are concerned with cryptography, 321 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: the most and most recently volume three. So pretty early 322 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: on commentators figured out, all, right, well, these first two 323 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: books are only like surface level about angelic magic. They're 324 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: really about cryptography and codes and ciphers. But they thought 325 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: for the longest well, this third book, though, this just 326 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: seems to be about magic. There's no code here um, 327 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a fitting read for the life 328 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: of John d the idea of like, at what point 329 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: does the magic become the main thing? But here's the 330 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: crazy part. This only this a view of the third 331 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: Book of Steganographia only lasted until the late nineteen nineties. 332 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: That's when two individuals experienced unrelated breakthroughs and cracking it 333 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: German linguist Thomas Ernst and Jim Reid's, who is working 334 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 1: in the mathematics and cryptography research department at A T 335 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: and T. That this is Wait, so A T and 336 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: T paid for somebody to research this old book on 337 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: angelic communication and cryptography. Well, it's uh. I don't know 338 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: if he did. I'm not certain if he did. This 339 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: part on the A. T. And D Die, but reads 340 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: is a guy who's subsequently written a few different books 341 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: on this and other D related works. Um and uh. 342 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: He he wrote about about this particular work in summing 343 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: it up with the following, which is I think rather 344 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: illuminating as we continue to look at these obsessions. Quote. 345 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: The question now is why did Trimetheus so thoroughly embrace 346 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: the red wrick of magic for such a non magical 347 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: as re regarded purpose. Did he regard cryptography as inherently magical? 348 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: Or was his choice of the language that language a 349 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: solution to the stylistic problem that all authors of cryptographic 350 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,719 Speaker 1: exposition have to solve how to sustain the reader's interest 351 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: through example after example of usually tedious plain texts, possibly 352 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: tedious explanations of cryptographic techniques, and always tedious cipher texts. 353 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: Trimetheus use of angel language might thus be a rhetorical 354 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: strategy to engage the reader's interest. If so, he was 355 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: vastly successful, even if he completely miscalculated how his book 356 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: would be received, because this basically, like I said that, 357 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: he was an important figure in occult circles because for 358 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: the longest like, that's what these books look like, that's 359 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: what those books mean if you're not breaking the crowd, 360 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: the code and sort of finding the deeper symbolism, the 361 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: deeper purpose of the text. Yeah, so he's he's thinking 362 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: along the lines of I'm going to write this really groundbreaking, 363 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: uh piece of linguistic science, but that's not really sexy, 364 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: so I'll tell everyone it's about angels. Yeah, Or it's 365 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: like it's kind of thinking think about it like this. 366 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: If you have you have a grammar lesson, what kind 367 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: of sentence are you gonna use? You're gonna use a 368 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: boring sentence or an exciting one, right, So, in a sense, 369 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: he used the exciting sentence. Uh he put he put 370 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: a dog in a sentence. So another Okay, another theory. 371 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: And again I'm no d scholar, and I know there's 372 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: lots of people out there who have poured through his diaries, 373 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: but maybe D was doing the same thing. Well that 374 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: that that becomes the crazy thing to try and figure out, 375 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: like where where we're what we're D's interest here? Was 376 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: he interested in the magic? Was he interested in I 377 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: mean sure, clearly he was interested in cryptography. He'd read 378 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 1: his other book, That's why he sought out this one. 379 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: There was the whole wife swapping thing though, so there 380 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: is a certain amount of him actually believing angels telling 381 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: him to do things he doesn't want to do. It 382 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: makes one think, like, at what point, in studying cryptography 383 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: through the language of magic, do you become kind of 384 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: ensourceful by the magic, by the language of of of 385 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: of magic. Uh? Yeah, it's crazy. Now, now back to 386 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: this whole expedition where he ends up finding this copy 387 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: of this rare book. So, as Benjamin Willy points out 388 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: in his book, this was no small accomplishment. It was 389 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: a really difficult book to steal a peek at it was. 390 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: It was banned it was actually actually the Church had 391 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: placed it on the Index liberal Um Prohibitorium in sixteen 392 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: o nine and it remained there until nineteen hundred. So 393 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 1: this was this was a this was a band book. 394 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: This was like a dark book and uh magic, yeah, 395 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: this is this is this is a dangerous text. Uh. 396 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: So D had to spend money to travel, he probably 397 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: had to pay bribes, and he worked with a mysterious 398 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: nobleman of Hungary who required that D, in turn, quote, 399 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: pleasure him with such points of science as he requireth 400 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: that sounds filthy. I hope it's not. I hope it's not. 401 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: Maybe he was just like performing scientific tricks like I 402 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: don't know, fire or it kind of sounds like you 403 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: have like in this case with the nobleman of Hungary, 404 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: kind of like a rich science fanboy who has access 405 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: to something amazing and then therefore uses it and as 406 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: an excuse to make the real scientists slash magician hang 407 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: out with him. And then on top of this, so 408 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: I mean the whole thing was not only to look 409 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: at it, not only to read it, but to copy 410 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: it so he would have his own copy. And this 411 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 1: was a difficult book to copy because it's it's full 412 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: of tables and charts, moving parts, apparently meaningless names, angelic language, 413 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: and uh he only had ten days to get it 414 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: all copied down, likely with this Hungarian guy just standing 415 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,959 Speaker 1: over over for him the whole time, trying to make 416 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: a small talk. Oh wow, Then you really feel for 417 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 1: John do when you dive into the details here, you know, 418 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, he wasn't the greatest guy in the world. 419 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: He did, you know, make his young wife sleep with 420 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: his squire at one point, but he really seemed to 421 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 1: be doing his best to try to gather this information 422 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: up for the benefit of I guess like as he 423 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: saw it mankind. Yeah, yeah, I increasingly sympathize with d 424 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: through through all these adventures and misadventures, increasingly more misadventures 425 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: than an adventure. Right. So, yeah, we're forced to try 426 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: and understand the role of this book really in Indeed's 427 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: life and what his his obsession with this book tells 428 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: us about his life. A book that is at once 429 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: both concerned with purely with codes and also concerned with 430 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: very strange magical concept were very esoteric concepts. I imagine 431 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: he kept this in the internal part of his Uh, 432 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: his Sanctum sanct This was definitely an inner library product here. Now, 433 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: according to to contemporary cryptologists Simon singh Um, it's important 434 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 1: to note here that UH, that you know, encryption had 435 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: been around for a while. He particularly mentions that al 436 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: Kindi book that I mentioned earlier, UH, in the simplest forms, 437 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: encryption is about swapping letters for symbols and the use 438 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: of frequency analysis to break it. And by the Elizabethan era, 439 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: UH cryptography was already getting a bit more advanced. This 440 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: was again a time of plots, espionage, deep political intrigue, 441 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: and encryption UH was was an important tool. Code making 442 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: and code breaking was very much a part of the 443 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: the actual game of thrones of the day. One example 444 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: that sing throws out is just considered the intrigue surrounding Mary, 445 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: Queen Scott's. She wanted to take the English throne, so 446 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: Elizabeth imprisoned her, but she used But then Mary used 447 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: coded messages that she sent out to her co conspirators 448 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: looking to work with the Spanish to put her on 449 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: the throne instead of Elizabeth. Chief codebreaker Thomas Phillips, Uh, 450 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: this is Elizabeth's a codebreaker came along. He broke this 451 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: code she was using, and he broke it easily because 452 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 1: she was using an outdated, simple form of cipher. So 453 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: Mary was found out, she was tried, she was executed 454 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: in seven So this serves as an example that that codes, 455 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: the making of the use of codes, and the breaking 456 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: of them was life and death. Yeah, especially when you consider, 457 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: like how much of this story that we've already told 458 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: has involved political actors traveling around Europe, uh suspected of 459 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: being spies, but you know, basically just saying like either 460 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: like oh, I'm just here to see the sites, or 461 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: I'm here to scribe crystals and talk to angels or whatever. Right, Um, 462 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: so code and cryptography would be essential to them passing 463 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: messages back and forth, either from their home countries or 464 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: to their associates in these these other empires. That's right. 465 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: So we're going about to take another break. But as 466 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: we take the break, think to yourself, which which is 467 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: better is you're out traveling around continental Europe to be 468 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: found out and accused as a spy or a magician? 469 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: Which which is the more dangerous scenario? All right, we're back, Okay, 470 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: So we asked which was better to be accused of 471 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: being a spy at the time, or a magician. Now, 472 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: given what we know about how many people accepted quote 473 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: magic as being a part of not I wouldn't say 474 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: daily life, but like, uh uh the sciences. Probably being 475 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: accused of being a spy was worse. I feel there's 476 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: there's less ambiguity, isn't there because if you can you 477 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: imagine you're you're accused of, Oh, you're trying to speak 478 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: to angels and you have all this angelic language, you know, 479 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: depending on some individuals would certainly be very quick to 480 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: condemn you and say, well, you're practicing horrible magic and 481 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: this is bad. But there's seems like you have a 482 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: certain amount of wiggle room there. Yeah. Well, I mean 483 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: considered D's own case, right, he goes to the Holy 484 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,959 Speaker 1: Roman Emperor and he says, angels told me you're possessed 485 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: by demons, and the guy was like whatever. But then 486 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: they think he might be a spy. Kick him out 487 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: of the country, yeah at least, right, I mean, or 488 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: or throw him into a dungeon, execute him, etcetera. So 489 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: so that's the the the question that one raises here 490 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: was John D a spy? The answer kind of varies 491 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: because it seems undoubtedly he played a role in introducing 492 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: some some concepts in cryptography to his Elizabethan mask. He 493 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: had a great cover story. Yeah, he did cover story, 494 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: that's the other thing. To what extent is this a 495 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: guy who ended up buying into his cover story, like 496 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: he went so deep cover that he himself had vast 497 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: difficulties uh re emerging and returning to h Elizabethan England. 498 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, It's it's difficult to piece it together because 499 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: we have a guy here who seems to have been 500 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 1: a pretty serious Christian, but he was also engaged in 501 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: all of this, uh, these occult interests. We have a 502 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: guy who believed mathematics was the key to unlocking the 503 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: secrets of the universe, who studied cryptography, who advised Queen 504 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First, who traveled rather extensively throughout Europe during 505 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: a time of plots, political unrest, in war, and so yeah, 506 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: this has led some historians to ponder whether, uh we're 507 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: not really whether, but to what degree John d was 508 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: engaged in the espionage of the day As early as 509 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century. English polly math Robert Hoake suggested that 510 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: D's Book of the Spirits was actually a book of 511 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 1: code rather than an account of angelic conversations, and that 512 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: it would be to go back to our our previous question, 513 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: that it would be far better to be charged with 514 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: being a quote pretend enthusiast rather than a real spy. Okay, yeah, 515 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 1: you know, I'm starting to lean more and more towards 516 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: that as a theory. Here's another interesting uh tidbit following 517 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: these um copying of the Steganographia. In fifteen sixty three, 518 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: he certainly wrote to William Cecil, that's Queen Elizabeth's key 519 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: minister at the time, uh, and who was just beginning 520 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: to put in place the espionage network that, under his predecessor, 521 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: the spy Master Francis so Walshingham UM would become one 522 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: of the most formidable and effective UM spy systems spionar 523 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: systems in Europe. So we're talking about the origins of 524 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: M I S X basically basically, yeah, like the he 525 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: he he wrote in writing to Cecil, he's writing to 526 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 1: one of the one of two key individuals. Yeah, and 527 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: laying the groundwork for a vast network of spies, a 528 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: vast coded network of spies. It depended on Coats D 529 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: wrote to Cecil apparently with great enthusiasm, telling him that 530 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: this book was quote that the most precious jewel that 531 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: I have yet of other men's travails recovered, and that 532 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: it would benefit quote the advancement of good letters and 533 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: wonderful divine and secret sciences. So Benjamin Woolly and his 534 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: book notes that that Cecil was a very practical conservative 535 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: sort of fellow and not the kind of guy to 536 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: put a lot of stock in occult rituals. He was religious, 537 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: he probably believed in spirits, you know, in kind of 538 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: an abstract sense of the word. That he wasn't going 539 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: to go rattling off a list of angel names or anything. 540 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: So the secret sciences that we're talking about here might 541 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: very well refer to interest far more earthly, uh, far 542 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: more espionage related than anything to do with you know, 543 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: angelic communication. So maybe D was duping Kelly. Yeah, like 544 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: he used a known occultists alchemist criminal as his companion 545 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: for ten years, possibly so that he could travel around 546 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: and pretend like he was doing these rituals when in 547 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,240 Speaker 1: fact he was up to something a little bit more concrete. Yeah, 548 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: it's I think one of the difficult things and trying 549 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: to figure out someone like D is we kind of 550 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: look for this, not certainly not maybe not a simple interpretation, 551 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: but we want a solid interpretation. And I guess the 552 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: way I keep trying to make sense of it is 553 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: to think, all right, every one of us has a 554 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: fairly complex worldview, a lot of contradictions, a lot of 555 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: I we believe in various ideas simultaneously even though they 556 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: don't match up, and we all have you know, I'm 557 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: just to generalize here, and let's say, let's say we 558 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: all have very fairly normal brains, and D had an 559 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: abnormal brain. D was a brilliant man, one of the 560 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: most brilliant men of his day, and therefore perhaps his 561 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 1: contradictions were just that that much greater, that much stranger, 562 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: that much more out of proportion to what the rest 563 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,399 Speaker 1: of us live with. Yeah, I think I can see 564 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: where you're going with this, that there's there's a little 565 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: bit of truth to all of this. Yeah, that's that's 566 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: that's where I keep coming coming back to, because it's 567 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: it's tempting to say, oh, well, he was only in 568 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: it for the he was only in it for the codes. 569 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: He was a spy the whole time. He wasn't duped 570 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: by this this this weird Edward Kelly character. Uh he was. 571 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: He was the secret secret master the whole time. But 572 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: as as Willie Wright said, D didn't see uh the 573 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: steganographia as a purely diplomatic or political tool like based 574 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: on his writings, he he clearly considered it to have 575 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: far more esoteric uses. He lieve that the cryptography could 576 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 1: help him decipher other ancient texts, such as the Book 577 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: of Siga on an anonymous tone that he believed to 578 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: have been written in the in the the Anochian language, 579 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: and another was a book that was attributed to Roger Bacon, 580 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: The Voyage, which is still yet to be deciphered. Yeah, 581 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: voyage manuscript is something that comes up a lot around here. 582 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: Um yeah, I know several of our other shows here 583 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: have done episodes on it and how stuff works as 584 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: like a pretty long windage manuscript article, I think as well. 585 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: Um yeah, so maybe maybe D. Then he's playing all 586 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: sides for his own and interests, you know, like he 587 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: believes in the angel stuff, but he's also playing it 588 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: out for this code stuff. He has interests in mathematics 589 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: and discovering the origins of the universe, in bettering the 590 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: English Empire, and all of those coincide with talking to 591 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: angels and spycraft and assisting trade agencies and being a 592 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 1: courtier to the queen. It's all it's all very I mean, 593 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: it's alien to us from present day perspective. Yeah, but 594 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: it does it does seem that it seemed to be 595 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: the case that it was all connected to him. Yeah, 596 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: this was this was the world that he lived, and 597 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: he lived in a world in which the British Empire 598 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: had great things ahead of it, that things were cosmically 599 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: aligned for it, that he himself was kind of the 600 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: the second coming of Merlin, That that that mathematics was 601 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: the key to to understanding and manipulating the forces in 602 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: the world around him, and that you could you could 603 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: use some of these properties to communicate with essentially extra 604 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: dimensional beings who would reveal the secrets of science too. Yeah. Uh, 605 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: it's not like he was looking to cast fireballs and 606 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: lightning bolts. He just wanted to know the world worked. 607 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: He was he was he was in endlessly curious, huh. 608 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: And that's John d the Good Doctor. So you know, 609 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: he's got this reputation now that's endured as an astrologer 610 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: and a magician. But I think you know, what we 611 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: should get out of these two episodes should be remembered 612 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 1: that D was an accomplished mathematician and he influenced the 613 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: field as well as physics, music, philosophy, optical theory, and 614 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: mechanical engineering. I mean, he really Robert and I were 615 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: talking about this outside the studio. I mean, he was 616 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: very influential in the history of the world in a 617 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 1: lot of ways. Uh. We remember him as being this 618 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: deluded guy who could talk to angels, but he contributed 619 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: to European intellectual history. There's actually an organization called the 620 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: John D Society, uh that I found in my searching around. 621 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: It's an organization dedicated to producing standard editions of his work, 622 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: and they're trying to reconstruct his library. So they're assembling 623 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 1: an archive of this material as they find it on microfilm, 624 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: although I imagine, uh that they're probably scanning it in 625 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 1: digitally at this point. And I'd like to leave us 626 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: with a quote from one of the books that I 627 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: was consulting by R. W. Baron. It's called a reputation 628 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: History of John D. The Life of an Elizabethan Intellectual, 629 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: and he says, four centuries after his death, we are 630 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,280 Speaker 1: still debating and wrestling with where D's work fits into 631 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: the Elizabethan world picture and what contributions, if any, he 632 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: made to those intellectual advancements. So there we have it. 633 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he's a fascinating fellow. He seems to have 634 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: influenced our sciences. He's perfect for our for stuff to 635 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: blow your mind. You know, he's got a little bit 636 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: of the weirdness of the bizarre, bringing it into his 637 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: understanding of the world, bringing wonder to these things, and 638 00:39:55,600 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: then simultaneously using things that we now consider every day 639 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: like optics or cartography or or or just basic math, uh, 640 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: in the same respect. Yeah, And it's it's it's just 641 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: amazing that he's one of these guys that we know 642 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: a fair amount about, and yet you the more you 643 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: read about him, the more you just ask, who who 644 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: was this guy? You know? Was he he really? Like? What? What? 645 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: What was the world he saw when he looked out 646 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: the window? You know? And uh, yeah, it's just just 647 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: an amazing character. So it's been a great pleasure to 648 00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: to research him and discuss him here on the podcast. Yeah, 649 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: I for one, next time I'm in London. I am 650 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: definitely gonna go to the British Museum and try to 651 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: get a look at some of those occult artifacts. And 652 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: I'd really like to visit the site of more Lake. 653 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: I always kind of see what it's like to from 654 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,319 Speaker 1: looking at Google Maps, doesn't seem like it's that far 655 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: southwest of London. So hey, anybody out there, have you 656 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: been there? Have you seen this stuff in the British Museum? 657 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: Maybe you know, Uh, like I said at the top 658 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: of all of this, the so much research into John 659 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: d that maybe you know there's stuff that we don't 660 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: know about that we missed here. Maybe there's something you'd 661 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: like to add that we could read in a future 662 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: listener mail episode. Uh. You can hit us up on Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, 663 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: or Instagram, and don't forget to visit Stuff to Blow 664 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com, which is our landing site where 665 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: we'll have images that accompany this episode, as well as 666 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 1: all of the blog posts and all of the videos 667 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: and all the other podcasts that we do here. And 668 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: real quick, on a personal note, I just want to 669 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: thank my my cousin father be Price, for suggesting research 670 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: into these life and studies. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this 671 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: was this was really a pleasure, all right. So if 672 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with the old fashioned way, 673 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: put aside the your your very scrying instruments, put aside 674 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: the magic mirror, and to simply send us an email. 675 00:41:49,360 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: I blow the mind at how stuff works dot com 676 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Is 677 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: it how stuff Work stopped? Colum? Come the big Believe. 678 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 1: I think the Big Man