Speaker 1: I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies
Speaker 1: in the basement.
Speaker 2: Somebody told you that Shakaia was a victim of human trafficking.
Speaker 1: I'm come to find out. This is like it exploded
Speaker 1: into this huge thing.
Speaker 2: I knew, I just knew something was wrong.
Speaker 1: Police say thirty three year old Jared Bride Again was
Speaker 1: shot dead.
Speaker 2: I kept calling his phone during the drive.
Speaker 3: Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.
Speaker 1: It's a murder of the stun Jack Speach neighbors.
Speaker 3: His murder has attracted national attention, with the investigators saying
Speaker 3: he was targeted.
Speaker 2: Eventually a police officer answered and told me to come
Speaker 2: to the police station.
Speaker 4: Justice is something that takes different shapes or forms.
Speaker 2: If you know something, heard something, please it's never too
Speaker 2: late to.
Speaker 3: Do the right thing.
Speaker 1: So I'm Dana Thompson aka Body Movin, and.
Speaker 4: I'm John Green. For about a decade, Deanna and I
Speaker 4: spent a lot of time on the Internet, especially in
Speaker 4: the underbelly of the Internet, trying to identify and get
Speaker 4: animal abusers arrested.
Speaker 1: We spent countless hours scouring the dark web helping catch predators.
Speaker 1: We spent over a year and a half trying to
Speaker 1: get law enforcement to take us seriously about a man
Speaker 1: that was killing cats online and he was threatening to
Speaker 1: move on to kill humans. And that was Luca mcnatdah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you might have heard about the Netflix special called
Speaker 4: Don't Fuck with Cats.
Speaker 1: That's us. Well, now we're turning our online investigator skills
Speaker 1: to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and just ignored cases.
Speaker 4: This is True Crimes, the production of iHeartRadio and Kat's Studios.
Speaker 4: So the last week spoke, we were sending the DNA
Speaker 4: forums to Shokia's parents for the FBI DNA database, and
Speaker 4: we're waiting for the Forida based investigator Chris Salgado to
Speaker 4: get back to us with information about Jared's ex wife
Speaker 4: and her husband. And we were sending forensic analysts Joseph
Speaker 4: Morgan our files and all the public information we have
Speaker 4: collected about Jared's case in.
Speaker 1: Florida, and Joseph has had some time to look it
Speaker 1: over and is ready to talk after our brief conversation
Speaker 1: the other day.
Speaker 4: So let's talk to Joseph and see what he has
Speaker 4: to say about the information we have collected about Jared's murder.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a plan I mean, you know, we've
Speaker 1: were working Jared, and you know, it's difficult because like
Speaker 1: there's nothing because the cops are pretty tight lipped in
Speaker 1: this case, and you know, hopefully with reason. Right, I
Speaker 1: had some questions about like crime scene processing. I think
Speaker 1: I don't really know what to call it. I've been
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about what kind of evidence would a
Speaker 1: criminal leave at this type of scene, right, And I
Speaker 1: was thinking about if it was a car jacking. Let's
Speaker 1: just say, I don't know, pretend if it was a carjacking,
Speaker 1: maybe they touched the door and then saw the little
Speaker 1: toddler in the back seat and got spooped and ran away.
Speaker 1: Or maybe they turned him over so they could reach
Speaker 1: in his back pocket and see if he had a wallet,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like those kinds of touches,
Speaker 1: you know, can that be processed? And then another thing
Speaker 1: that I was really thinking about a lot was the shellcasings. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's my understanding that shellcasings are difficult in the past
Speaker 1: to process because when the gun is fired, it like
Speaker 1: burns up the DNA right to.
Speaker 3: A certain degree. There's a bit of a fallacy. Oh okay, okay,
Speaker 3: it's been proven that you can still retrieve it, but
Speaker 3: you had passed along an article that you know, I
Speaker 3: concur with to a certain degree. When you begin to
Speaker 3: think about DNA in any case you can't. People will
Speaker 3: say they'll, you know, the two terms DNA and fingerprint
Speaker 3: kind of in some some arenas have become kind of interchangeable.
Speaker 3: And I think that for the laymen, they do follow
Speaker 3: that line of logic and they think about how you
Speaker 3: know it is something that is left behind and to
Speaker 3: kind of frame it. And I always fall back to
Speaker 3: a man named mom Lecarde, who's our person in forensics.
Speaker 3: It's kind of the godfather in forensics for us, and
Speaker 3: over one hundred years ago he made a statement. It says,
Speaker 3: every contact leads a trace. There's something there and you know,
Speaker 3: like you just imagine your thumb. Where an individual is
Speaker 3: loading a magazine, they're pressing down very hard, particularly when
Speaker 3: they're gay to the high end of the capacity of
Speaker 3: the magazine. They're having to apply more pressure directly to
Speaker 3: the surface of the months of the live round. But
Speaker 3: get it into the magazine comes more and more tense,
Speaker 3: so more contacts you have there, the higher probability is
Speaker 3: that you'll leave a latent print and there have been
Speaker 3: latent prints that have been recovered off the shellcases. We
Speaker 3: do things like super glue, fumine, those sorts of things.
Speaker 3: You can kind of capture it in that moment. But
Speaker 3: the DNA DNA is so and the term molecular is
Speaker 3: very accurate here because it's so timy, and it gets
Speaker 3: into these places that I think the normal everyday person
Speaker 3: you're thinking about, well where can I find evidence? Well,
Speaker 3: evidence can be in the tightest of areas, the tiniest
Speaker 3: little recesses. When it comes to DNA, it's just do
Speaker 3: you have the knowledge and the ability to collect it? Well,
Speaker 3: if you use a semi automatic weapon, unless you've got
Speaker 3: what's referred to as a brass catcher that catches the
Speaker 3: ejected shell cases, you're leading evidence behind. You know, a pro,
Speaker 3: a pro worth their salt, would use a revolver, and
Speaker 3: you know there are many cases where you can use
Speaker 3: like a twenty two magnum for instance, revolver, which is
Speaker 3: you know, rather robust round to be so tiny and caliber,
Speaker 3: it's highly effective. And obviously in this case, they weren't
Speaker 3: trying to mute sound because even the baby, you know,
Speaker 3: we have to think back, what did the baby say
Speaker 3: you know, boom boom boom, daddy fell down, or you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it justice. But that was essentially the
Speaker 3: jest of it. So they weren't trying to mask sound here.
Speaker 3: They weren't trying to suppress sound. So a pro would
Speaker 3: have used a revolver. If you use a revolver, guess
Speaker 3: what you do. You take that evidence with you because
Speaker 3: the spent rounds in the cylinder are still there. You're
Speaker 3: going to haul that off with you. Who this perpetrator
Speaker 3: is as cold and callous as it was, and this
Speaker 3: is this hits a level of brutality I think just
Speaker 3: from a lack of just empathy on his part for
Speaker 3: this baby that was at the scene. It wasn't very
Speaker 3: bright because you know, you've got all these multiple points
Speaker 3: of contact this this tire with a rim, there's points
Speaker 3: of contact on that where you can leave you know,
Speaker 3: DNA evidence that can be harvested. You could leave a
Speaker 3: fingerprint that say, if you're not wearing gloves, because if
Speaker 3: you think about any tire, it's got that kind of
Speaker 3: dust that's on the surface of it. You know, many
Speaker 3: times it's break dust. You'll have grease that's on it
Speaker 3: and if you have grease, if you touch that area,
Speaker 3: that's what referred to as a plastic print. If you're
Speaker 3: very careful when you look at that, you essentially if
Speaker 3: if folks listening, we'll just think about think about when
Speaker 3: we were kids and we'd use plato or we'd use
Speaker 3: silly putty, you know, and you press your finger into it.
Speaker 3: You press your finger into it, you can actually pick
Speaker 3: up ridge detail off off of that print that has
Speaker 3: been left behind. Well, this is kind of a plastic
Speaker 3: print if you touch that that kind of greasy or
Speaker 3: dusty area. The trick is we're they careful to preserve
Speaker 3: all of the surfaces of that tire. So I know,
Speaker 3: going kind of far field.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, this is great.
Speaker 3: I think this is this case from a physical evidence standpoint,
Speaker 3: it's going to come down to impressions. Those things that
Speaker 3: are left behind, like the card, every contact lease trace.
Speaker 3: So you know, if you look at the list of
Speaker 3: things here from potential harvesting of DNA off of spent
Speaker 3: shell casing because we obviously they not we but they
Speaker 3: obviously don't have the weapon, at least we don't think
Speaker 3: they do. You've got perhaps, as you rightly mentioned, if
Speaker 3: this was in fact some failed carjacking attempt where you're
Speaker 3: going to muscle somebody and they put their hand on
Speaker 3: that door lash to force it open and have them
Speaker 3: step out of the vehicle. Knowing Florida and the way
Speaker 3: they process scenes down there, I would imagine that truck
Speaker 3: was hauled off and taken to a forensic garage as
Speaker 3: a crime lab, and the whole thing is being I
Speaker 3: mean they have gone from stemmed the stern on this thing,
Speaker 3: looking at every point of contact in there, that baby's
Speaker 3: car seat, what is part of the scene. They're going
Speaker 3: to be taking a look at that, any any point
Speaker 3: of contact where people are placing their hands on a surface,
Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter if it's a smooth, non poor
Speaker 3: surface like glass or metal or even fabric, because if
Speaker 3: you touch fabric, if you touch fabric, there's a high
Speaker 3: probabilit right there that you could source DNA out of
Speaker 3: that just through touch DNA that DNA that comes off
Speaker 3: from slough skin cell. Yeah, then you think about the tire,
Speaker 3: you know, so you've got the tire and all the
Speaker 3: components with that, You've got the truck with the Layton prints,
Speaker 3: You've got these shell casings. And one of the things
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by is that when you look at the
Speaker 3: aerial photography in this case of the area where this
Speaker 3: went down, this is immediately adjacent to a very damp environment.
Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, there's kind of a little
Speaker 3: canal that runs adjacent to the roadway out there. It's
Speaker 3: got water. This water in dwelling in the space, and
Speaker 3: so you know that it's a damp, humid environment. I
Speaker 3: know a lot of people would say, well, that's Laura,
Speaker 3: that's no big revelation. You're right, it's not. But if
Speaker 3: that water is in that canal area because of the
Speaker 3: recent rain, if this perpetrator set this tire out at
Speaker 3: this choke point, wheel housing entire however we're going to
Speaker 3: phrase it, they had to wait. Well, the question is
Speaker 3: what did they do while they were waiting?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought about that a lot.
Speaker 3: If they're standing over in that and it's there's palmetta bushes,
Speaker 3: which are kind of these bushy things that you get
Speaker 3: them in tropical areas. There's all kinds of interesting vegetation
Speaker 3: up there. Then you have kind of a canopy that
Speaker 3: rises up about you know, two stories in the air
Speaker 3: of trees, it's a great place to hide. But that
Speaker 3: soil is very soft and very receptive. So if an
Speaker 3: individual is wearing a particular type of shoe boot, that
Speaker 3: soil would have been very receptive to holding on to
Speaker 3: a pattern left behind by the shoes that the individuals wearing.
Speaker 3: You know, the thing about it is is that if
Speaker 3: you get a group of cops that are, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of cowboying it up and they're just running around wild,
Speaker 3: which I don't think that they did, you can stop
Speaker 3: upon evidence and some of the stuff is very reprivual.
Speaker 3: I hope that it was very well secured if they
Speaker 3: did find footprints, which I think there's a higher probability
Speaker 3: that they did out that same because of solid the soil,
Speaker 3: the texture of the soil, and you can document that
Speaker 3: maybe cast those areas you're going to have again another
Speaker 3: point of connectivity that could in fact leads you back
Speaker 3: to portrayer in this cave.
Speaker 1: That's such a good point and I thought about that
Speaker 1: a lot, like the person that did this had to
Speaker 1: be working with somebody else, because you have to know
Speaker 1: Jared's coming, there's nobody behind him. It's safe to do this,
Speaker 1: you know, communicating right and they would have to have
Speaker 1: been hiding in that wooded area. They would have to be.
Speaker 1: But if it's a random attack like a carjacking or
Speaker 1: a road rage incident, not that it was, but if
Speaker 1: it was, then they wouldn't have found anything because the
Speaker 1: person wouldn't have gone into the woods. Right, The person
Speaker 1: likely wouldn't have gone into the woods.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this for me, this goes to you
Speaker 3: know how I mentioned about you know, semi automatic weapon
Speaker 3: versus revolver. Right, this is somebody that at least had
Speaker 3: a base plan. I didn't think everything through. Because he
Speaker 3: thought everything through, there were certain things that they would
Speaker 3: not have done. I think chief among these as you
Speaker 3: would have taken the time to pick up that tire room.
Speaker 1: And haul it off with you, right, and the showcasings
Speaker 1: and shellcasing.
Speaker 3: We don't know what the distribution was of the shellcases
Speaker 3: either were they in the grass or were they just
Speaker 3: laying out on the surface of the road. And that's important. Yeah,
Speaker 3: when one of these things ejects and it hits concrete
Speaker 3: asphalt surface, it'll bounce, literally bounce. And because it's such
Speaker 3: a you know, it's got it's cylindrical in shape and
Speaker 3: it's got all these weird kind of edges on it.
Speaker 3: It'll hit that contact and surface and it'll just bounce
Speaker 3: and there's no there's no predictability to it where it's
Speaker 3: going to wind up. Now that the casings were in
Speaker 3: the grass on the shoulder of the road, then again
Speaker 3: this isn't a great predictor, but at least you would
Speaker 3: kind of have them in a tighter area. But when
Speaker 3: you get onto a hard surface and you again popping
Speaker 3: off rounds, those cases can be distributed all over the place.
Speaker 3: So you can't look at the distribution patterns of spent
Speaker 3: shell cases and say, Okay, this person was standing definitively
Speaker 3: right here, because it's just.
Speaker 1: So random where they land.
Speaker 3: Right it is. It's one of the most random things.
Speaker 3: And you know, and again one of the worst sounds
Speaker 3: crime saying of us there can hear at night when
Speaker 3: you're out on only seeing in a very poorly litle area,
Speaker 3: which I'd have to say this is again that the
Speaker 3: person plan for this is that that metal tink that
Speaker 3: you hear is you kick a shell spent shell case
Speaker 3: and with your foot because you didn't see it. It
Speaker 3: can just be that random and the thing goes rolling
Speaker 3: across the ground. Well, now you've lost all your points
Speaker 3: of reference, you know, with that where it was distributed,
Speaker 3: and that does happen. I'm chief among centers, I've kicked them,
Speaker 3: I've stucked them, and had not didn't have an awareness
Speaker 3: you know, that was going on. But if it's in
Speaker 3: the grass, that's that's totally you know, that's a bit different.
Speaker 3: And this is just kind of one of those points
Speaker 3: when you think about crime scene investigations, and one of
Speaker 3: the reasons we really stress this is that you have
Speaker 3: to have a gatekeeper out there. You do not want
Speaker 3: a huge number of people inside the tape because you
Speaker 3: increase the factor that something could go wrong exponentially with
Speaker 3: every person that you put inside the tape. So the
Speaker 3: fewer hands on deck, you would think, well, god, we
Speaker 3: need somebody to help us manage this. Yeah, you do.
Speaker 3: They need to stand outside the tape, and you have
Speaker 3: the technicians that are within the tape, particularly early on,
Speaker 3: so that you can kind of get a feel for
Speaker 3: what's going on. And this case is very difficult. Why
Speaker 3: people might ask why, you know, Morgan, why why is
Speaker 3: this case more difficult than you know than another, Well,
Speaker 3: it's outdoors, and anytime you have something outdoors, it's it's
Speaker 3: not controlled. I've had wild animals walk across scenes at uh,
Speaker 3: you know, crime scenes. I've had dogs walk up and
Speaker 3: start snipping out of blood and drinking blood at crime
Speaker 3: scenes and you don't have any control over that, Whereas
Speaker 3: if you're inside of a dwelling, it's a controlled environment.
Speaker 3: You know that that you find yourself in at that
Speaker 3: moment time, and you can you know, shut the doors,
Speaker 3: and it's very I'm not saying it's it's easy, but
Speaker 3: it's it's more controllable. And then of course in Florida,
Speaker 3: you never know when it's going to rain, and that's
Speaker 3: one of the worst things that can happen is that's
Speaker 3: crime scene investigati. When you hear the distant roll of thunder,
Speaker 3: I'm that that happened. That happens quite frequently.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look that up. I want to know what
Speaker 1: the weather conditions were.
Speaker 3: I think that that's very important. Yeah, what phase was
Speaker 3: the moon into? Because no, no, no, you want to
Speaker 3: you want to know what the moon was in because
Speaker 3: it's going to provide ambient lighting if it's a clear night,
Speaker 3: and even if you've got say a half moon that's
Speaker 3: out there, then the scene will be partially illuminated, you know,
Speaker 3: if it's overcast. Even if you've got full moon, it's
Speaker 3: it's more difficult, you know. And in an area like this,
Speaker 3: one of the things that happens and I don't know
Speaker 3: that necessarily happened in this particular case. First off, crimesing units,
Speaker 3: it's kind of standard now that they carry a generator
Speaker 3: with horrible lighting. In the past, if it is so
Speaker 3: bloody dark out of the scene, we would actually call
Speaker 3: the fire department. And they have what's called a light
Speaker 3: truck at bigger departments, and it's got these gigantic, gigantic
Speaker 3: spotlights on the things that many people don't ever see these,
Speaker 3: and it will just blast away all of the darkness.
Speaker 3: Set to call for other you know, for other assets
Speaker 3: to come in so that you can work this thing,
Speaker 3: you know, and you know, homicides don't occur at most
Speaker 3: convenient time. You have to, you know, you have to
Speaker 3: dance to the tune that's currently being played, and you
Speaker 3: have to be prepared to bit at one show up.
Speaker 1: What's the danger in waiting for like the sunrise? Is
Speaker 1: it that does the evidence degrade? If it's outside and maybe.
Speaker 3: It starts raining, like yeah, yeah, yeah, there is a
Speaker 3: danger you don't And look, there are certain cases where
Speaker 3: we've held them overnight, but we have started processing cases,
Speaker 3: you know, like I'll vie for instance, if you have
Speaker 3: a clandestine grave, for instance, where you know where you
Speaker 3: have a victim that's located, maybe you've outlined it out,
Speaker 3: You've maybe have a grid that's placed over and the
Speaker 3: sun goes down. You don't necessarily want to be doing
Speaker 3: a body recovery in a non lighted environment, I mean
Speaker 3: where it requires daylight to do it. In those cases, yeah,
Speaker 3: you would hold off. But in a case that's kind
Speaker 3: of dispersed and you really don't know what's going on,
Speaker 3: you can mind this occurred at night, you know, so
Speaker 3: you're not going to know the full depth and breadth
Speaker 3: of it, and you don't know what could be compromised
Speaker 3: by you not attending to it, particularly when it comes
Speaker 3: to blood evidence, and that's that's the big bugaboo here.
Speaker 3: If you have any kind of blood evidence, whether it
Speaker 3: be from the victim, which there would have been blood
Speaker 3: evidence relative to Jared unfortunately, or if they got into
Speaker 3: a scuffle or something and the perpetrator was bleeding, you
Speaker 3: won't be able to appreciate those bits of blood and
Speaker 3: it can be compromised. So you have to flood it
Speaker 3: with as much light as you can and try to
Speaker 3: process it at that moment in time, because it can
Speaker 3: be literally washed away. I mean. And again, my friends
Speaker 3: in Florida that I know that you know, do forensics
Speaker 3: down there. That's and I work in South Louisiana, which
Speaker 3: is not too much different than Florida and these hostile environments,
Speaker 3: and Florida is a hostile And I don't mean this
Speaker 3: about the people or the I'm talking about the atmosphere.
Speaker 3: I'm talking about that world in which people live in,
Speaker 3: you know, down there, and they're aware of it there.
Speaker 3: You know, you're not breaking new news to them. They
Speaker 3: know every time you walk out of the house, you're
Speaker 3: dripping sweat many times, okay, And you're subject to the
Speaker 3: environment that you're in, any any environment that we're in.
Speaker 3: And then with biological evidence, in particular, the longer it
Speaker 3: is left unattended or uncollected and documented and all the
Speaker 3: sorts of things that we do, there's a higher probability
Speaker 3: it's going to degrade. And you just you want to
Speaker 3: avoid that at all costs, and some you know, look,
Speaker 3: if the circumstances dictate many times, how we're going to
Speaker 3: react and behave and all those sorts of things. And
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes you get to a body and it's
Speaker 3: it's hours and hours after the person has died. You
Speaker 3: don't have any control over that, and so you kind
Speaker 3: of have to jump in midstream and just process it
Speaker 3: as best you can and just understand the world and
Speaker 3: what you're working.
Speaker 4: Let's stop here for a break.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment. Typically in the court case,
Speaker 2: there's two types of testimony. There's a witness testimony, somebody
Speaker 2: who physically saw it, I saw the shooter. The other
Speaker 2: testimony is expert witness testimony, somebody like you, well, there
Speaker 2: was a night witness Gyard's daughter two years old. But
Speaker 2: can a child testify in a case like this as
Speaker 2: a night with John.
Speaker 3: I can't even begin to imagine that as they would
Speaker 3: do that, the remembrances would be so clouded and a
Speaker 3: child that young. Now, I think probably, and this is
Speaker 3: going to enter into I don't really know. This is
Speaker 3: kind of outside of my spuere, but I think maybe
Speaker 3: the way that the prosecution might because listen, this is
Speaker 3: powerful stuff, maybe the most powerful thing about this case.
Speaker 3: In my estimation, at least, the child is an ear
Speaker 3: witness to this event. Okay, they're going to try to
Speaker 3: get that into, you know, into the case they're going
Speaker 3: to when this thing goes to trial, or try to.
Speaker 3: They want to get that statement, you know, that statement
Speaker 3: that she made about our day. I could see them
Speaker 3: getting the police officer that took that statement or spoke
Speaker 3: with that child, or if it was a social worker
Speaker 3: or whoever, get them on the stand and address that issue.
Speaker 3: In addition to that, I could see them reaching out
Speaker 3: to a side child psychologist or forensic psychologists and ask
Speaker 3: them how much how much weight should we give to
Speaker 3: this statement that was made, And then they'll go into
Speaker 3: the you know, into destruction of the brain of a
Speaker 3: child's age and talk about the cognitibility, their ability to communicate,
Speaker 3: and they'll get them on the stand. And it's probably
Speaker 3: the combination of those two things. With the official that
Speaker 3: took the statement from a child, if you want to
Speaker 3: call it a statement, and then an expert rendering you know,
Speaker 3: how much weight should you get to it, they could
Speaker 3: probably get them understand I just can't see them putting
Speaker 3: on the sand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where I'm trying to go with this and
Speaker 2: Jared's case. You're not going to have any eye witness.
Speaker 5: You're going to rely on physical evidence left at the scene. Yeah,
Speaker 5: and that's why, and using experts in the field, and
Speaker 5: I'd like to kind of we have time kind of
Speaker 5: go over some of the.
Speaker 2: Things we do know. So we do know that there
Speaker 2: were shellcases left, that's the thing, right from semi automatic.
Speaker 2: And as you said, you know, if a professional would
Speaker 2: have done this, they would have probably used a revolver.
Speaker 2: So there were times in this case where Deanna and
Speaker 2: I talking list man, this is very professional, and then
Speaker 2: you hear about shell casing being left that's the scene,
Speaker 2: and you go, well, that's not very professional. So there's
Speaker 2: a lot of talk about you know, you can identify
Speaker 2: the type of gun or from the hammer that strikes
Speaker 2: the firing cap in it. So obviously they're going to
Speaker 2: know the size of based on the shell. They're going
Speaker 2: to know what size bullet would use.
Speaker 3: Correct, Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, it would. There would be
Speaker 3: the stamp on the base of the spint cartridge that
Speaker 3: will give you manufacture and it will give you caliber,
Speaker 3: whether it's a forty cow nine millimeter, ten milimeter, forty
Speaker 3: five caliber, whatever the case. We you know, I'm working
Speaker 3: on the assumption that this is a semi automatic weapon
Speaker 3: because they recovered spell, recovered spent brass. Let's saying, you know,
Speaker 3: unless somebody, unless this person was such a fool that
Speaker 3: they would dump a cylinder at the scene, you know,
Speaker 3: from a revolver, And I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And for the listeners, what do you is meaning
Speaker 2: is a revolver has that round thing that you see
Speaker 2: in the Old West, or they spin it in order
Speaker 2: to empty it. You would have to pull a latch.
Speaker 2: The cylinder would flip to one side. Then you would
Speaker 2: have to put another thing down that would ejact eject.
Speaker 3: The ejector rod.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it would eject all the shell casings out
Speaker 2: of that cylinder, so you could load more bullets and
Speaker 2: then put.
Speaker 3: It back in.
Speaker 2: Versus a semi automatic which has a magazine or what
Speaker 2: we primarily referred to as a clip, and put the
Speaker 2: clip in the handle, do you rack the slide. It
Speaker 2: loads one bullet into the chamber. You pull the thin
Speaker 2: the energy from the bullet being the gunpowder expanding, shooting
Speaker 2: the bullet out the barrel, then pushes his slide back
Speaker 2: that then takes the shelf casing ejects out of the
Speaker 2: bullet and one of the next bullet, and the clip
Speaker 2: slides up into the chamber. So when you talk about
Speaker 2: a brass catcher, that would be an attachment to it.
Speaker 2: So it's this case is this isn't the case where
Speaker 2: I go, well, that's not very professional to lead ship.
Speaker 3: Oh it's suddenly you know, you might look at the
Speaker 3: body and say, well, we can assess it the scene
Speaker 3: that he appears to have gunshot. Womans will know more,
Speaker 3: you know, because at the scene, you're there's nobody that's
Speaker 3: going to be at the scene that will can say
Speaker 3: that something is in fact a gunshot wound. They'll say
Speaker 3: you have circular defects or regular defects in a body.
Speaker 3: I get pushed back from that all the time, you know,
Speaker 3: like a cam like, well, this is a gunshot wound.
Speaker 3: And you're not a board certified friends of pathology. So
Speaker 3: you know, immediately the defense hops on you and says, oh, really,
Speaker 3: where'd you go to medical school? Where'd you do your
Speaker 3: pathology residency? Where'd you do your fellowship in forensic pathology,
Speaker 3: So they can call it a gunshot wound. But the
Speaker 3: safest thing is to say this is a circular defect
Speaker 3: in the body. Now, once the medical examiner makes their
Speaker 3: assessment and they say, yes, this is in fact a
Speaker 3: gunshot woman, we've got stippling here, we've got a powdered distribution.
Speaker 3: Oh and by the way, we recovered to let core
Speaker 3: projectile out the body, and we have X rays to
Speaker 3: demonstrate this, and here's the physical projectile. Even if you
Speaker 3: have the ballistics on that, sometimes the bullet will be
Speaker 3: compromised to the point where you won't have the ability
Speaker 3: to say definitively that this is a certain caliber without
Speaker 3: sending it to the ballistics lab and have them visualize it,
Speaker 3: actualize it, examine it, and generate a report. Shortcut here
Speaker 3: is the fact that you've got spent brass at the scene.
Speaker 3: So you can look at that and say, for the detective,
Speaker 3: this is huge because he's got spent brass laying all
Speaker 3: over the place. And not only can they say that
Speaker 3: it's this caliber and it's this manufacturer, because now you've
Speaker 3: got a place where you can start doing sales research exactly.
Speaker 3: And one other thing that people don't think about with
Speaker 3: spent brass is that you know, you did a great
Speaker 3: job of describing the sequencing of the ejection process when
Speaker 3: those rounds are loaded up through the magazine and you
Speaker 3: initiate that firing sequence. Well, what happens internally with a
Speaker 3: semi automatic weapon is you've got a mechanism within it
Speaker 3: that essentially grabs that round that has been fired and
Speaker 3: it drags it across, drags it across the surface of
Speaker 3: these of this extractor mechanism that's inside the housing. And
Speaker 3: guess what, that's unique to that weapon. So now that
Speaker 3: piece of brass is flying through the air and it's
Speaker 3: got extractor marks on it. So if you ever do
Speaker 3: you recover the weapon, you can take that piece of
Speaker 3: brass and you can fire that same type of ammunition
Speaker 3: out of that weapon. Collect that brass and do a
Speaker 3: comparison between what you found at the scene and what
Speaker 3: you generate in a lab if you suspect that this
Speaker 3: is the weapon use and they can do a ballistic
Speaker 3: comparison with that, and it's it's not it doesn't have
Speaker 3: as much weight as when you're you see them in
Speaker 3: these movies where they'll fire a weapon into a big
Speaker 3: barrel full of water and they catch that round, and
Speaker 3: you look at the ballistic signature that's left behind the
Speaker 3: striations and all these sorts of things that land and roods,
Speaker 3: and you know the the fingerprint that's essentially left on
Speaker 3: the soft metal surface of the projectile that carries more weight. However,
Speaker 3: you know the totality of that scientific examination where you
Speaker 3: have spent brass and then you marry that up with
Speaker 3: the test fire round compared to the rounds that you recovered. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: maybe from the body it's seen, or maybe around that
Speaker 3: has passed through the body lodged in them around or
Speaker 3: maybe because I still don't I still don't understand the
Speaker 3: positionality of the shooter relative to Jared. They shoot Jared once,
Speaker 3: knocking to the ground, and they stand over him and
Speaker 3: fire into him.
Speaker 1: I have a video of the shots, but it's just
Speaker 1: audio and it's just boom, boom boom, So I don't know.
Speaker 2: It kind of leads me into this whole versus a
Speaker 2: professional versus an amateur that committed this. So you know,
Speaker 2: at the scene when we hear about the shell case,
Speaker 2: and you immediately go to a semi automatic. Why would
Speaker 2: the person leave the shelf? And that's what comes to
Speaker 2: my mind that makes me think maybe this wasn't a
Speaker 2: professional that did the job. And so like that's the
Speaker 2: thing that gets me and I keep getting hung up on,
Speaker 2: Like at one point on time, this is like how
Speaker 2: to get away with murder? Win on one, this is
Speaker 2: like the perfect crime. You know, we're ten minutes down
Speaker 2: the road. They still don't know. They have some ideas.
Speaker 2: But so that was the thing that stuck out with
Speaker 2: me so early. You would talk about latent prints and
Speaker 2: DNA on non porous surfaces. So how about a tire.
Speaker 2: Anybody who's ever changed a flat tire on the side
Speaker 2: of the road knows it's very physical. Your hands on,
Speaker 2: you're gonna get dirty, You're gonna get brake dust and
Speaker 2: whatever your car's kicked up while it's driving down the road.
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming that tire was on the word f
Speaker 2: one fifty they're looking for. They had a flat, so
Speaker 2: I'm going they had to physically touch it.
Speaker 3: Would a fingerprint last on rubber? In this case, I
Speaker 3: think that the potential for it, particularly if it was
Speaker 3: on a medium like oil or grease, it could be
Speaker 3: transferred to it. Okay, Like if you grabbed the inner
Speaker 3: hub of a wheel, it could have oil or grease,
Speaker 3: grease primarily I think, and also the brake dust. So
Speaker 3: if they took care when they went to examine the
Speaker 3: tire again, you go back to something like super blue fuming,
Speaker 3: you could capture a print in that environment. Another thing
Speaker 3: that they'll use also when trying to retreat prints is
Speaker 3: using what's referred to as alternative light sources. Because light
Speaker 3: is on a spectrum and so you're using, say, for instance,
Speaker 3: like ultra violet light. You can take photos of things
Speaker 3: using ultraviolet light filters and you'll be able to see
Speaker 3: things that you would not normally see. So that's another
Speaker 3: way they can capture evidence off of the tire. I think, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think that probably we're reaching the outer marker now,
Speaker 3: but there's other pieces of evidence to consider here. I think,
Speaker 3: in going back to the tire, I think one of
Speaker 3: the things that we might forget about is you have
Speaker 3: to look to soil signs. In this case as well,
Speaker 3: you brought up you had brought up the idea that
Speaker 3: this person if they were from an out of state
Speaker 3: or they had traveled out of state, you know, all
Speaker 3: soil is not the same. So if you're coming from
Speaker 3: let's say Florida is just adjacent to Georgia, right, Well,
Speaker 3: if you had used the truck on a job, if
Speaker 3: you're a contractor, use that truck on a job in
Speaker 3: the Piedmont region of Georgia, which is before you get
Speaker 3: to fall on, which is where the soil turns real
Speaker 3: sandy and it starts to sweep down towards the Gulf
Speaker 3: of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of Florida. That soil
Speaker 3: looks completely different in the Piedmont region than it does
Speaker 3: down in that coastal region. The same thing applies as
Speaker 3: you go north of the Piedmont you start to get
Speaker 3: into Appalachia. If they're doing a job up there, let's
Speaker 3: say in North Carolina or Tennessee, that soil is completely
Speaker 3: different than Piedmont and it's certainly different than the coastal soil.
Speaker 3: So soil is certainly something you would look for on
Speaker 3: that tire. In particular, I can guarantee you they're looking
Speaker 3: at that.
Speaker 1: That would be fabulous. I mean, if there is a
Speaker 1: soil sample in that tire, that it's unique, right, Like
Speaker 1: maybe they work on a gravel pit. I don't know
Speaker 1: that would be fabulous, but I feel like if that
Speaker 1: were the case, John, don't you think that we would
Speaker 1: know by now?
Speaker 3: Yes and no?
Speaker 4: Or is this yeah?
Speaker 2: This is the stuff that they're holding close to, right,
Speaker 2: So we Gaana and I used the term puma idents
Speaker 2: that police have but they don't make public so that
Speaker 2: you know, once they find the person and they'll know
Speaker 2: for sure this is them. So the tire. So I'm
Speaker 2: looking at the picture of the tire now and it
Speaker 2: looks like it has tread, but it doesn't happen very much.
Speaker 2: So the police are looking for a Ford F one
Speaker 2: fifteen manufactured between the years two thousand and four two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight. So let's just say the last year
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight is doing this thing. Most tires
Speaker 2: last forty fifty thousand miles. This you know, this vehicle
Speaker 2: is two thousand and eight twenty twenty twenty two. That's
Speaker 2: the eight years they've probably had to replace tires within
Speaker 2: those eight years. Is there information manufacturer information can be
Speaker 2: on this tire that may tell them when it was manufactured,
Speaker 2: where it came from, and possibly what area of the
Speaker 2: country like I live in southern California. We don't buy
Speaker 2: snow tires and we don't need them, whereas people in
Speaker 2: the north and eat northeast too. Is there going to
Speaker 2: be information manufacturer information on the tire that may help
Speaker 2: them find where this came from.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, most definitely you'll be able to you know,
Speaker 3: there'll be a lot number that this thing will go
Speaker 3: back to. And here here's another fascinating piece to evidence
Speaker 3: collected from tires you have. With tires, you have what's
Speaker 3: referred to as OE, which is called original equipment. So
Speaker 3: let's say Ford, if Ford has a contract with be
Speaker 3: a good Richard, Firestone or good Year, that is that
Speaker 3: came up in the year model of that of that vehicle.
Speaker 3: Maybe they had a contract for that year that they're
Speaker 3: going to supply that company. A is going to supply
Speaker 3: Ford Motor Company with this type of tire. You know,
Speaker 3: because when a vehicle rolls off the line, it's got
Speaker 3: tires on it. Okay, so they subcontract that out. So
Speaker 3: let's just say, for instance, that they had new tires
Speaker 3: that were placed on the truck and they had this
Speaker 3: OE tire that they kept around for a spare. Well,
Speaker 3: that tells you something about the individual, right, it tells
Speaker 3: you the point of origin for the oe, what year
Speaker 3: was it manufactured, where did it come from, what lot
Speaker 3: did it come out of? If you know, because if
Speaker 3: you just look at the on the sidewalls, if you
Speaker 3: just look at the all of that data that's contained
Speaker 3: on the side of there, you can kind of begin
Speaker 3: to paint a picture of the point of origin, maybe
Speaker 3: not specifically to that truck, but certainly to that that tire.
Speaker 3: And I think that that's very important here. And when
Speaker 3: you're trying to process all of this evidence, it does
Speaker 3: take time. You know. It's like you know, Granny's quilt
Speaker 3: that she's passed down from years and years ago to
Speaker 3: the family and each body, each person involved it did
Speaker 3: a square. Well, each one of the squares has got
Speaker 3: a point of point of origin, okay, and it's what
Speaker 3: makes the quote unique. And in a forensic case, it's
Speaker 3: just like that, each one of these bits of evidence
Speaker 3: will be unique to itself. Even you drowning in evidence, okay,
Speaker 3: sometimes you can have believe it or not. You have
Speaker 3: too much evidence, it becomes overwhelming, I think if you
Speaker 3: haven't planned accordingly, and when you have too much evidence,
Speaker 3: sometimes you can get focused on certain things and lose
Speaker 3: focus on other things. So you have to have somebody
Speaker 3: who's coming in charge that's saying, Okay, this is significant,
Speaker 3: this is significant, and just imagine the biggest vend docms
Speaker 3: that you've ever seen in your life, and everything has
Speaker 3: its importance to the case. It's all about attempting to
Speaker 3: measure the value of each one of those little circles
Speaker 3: and what's it going to bring to the case. What's it?
Speaker 3: You know, right now we're still at the phase we
Speaker 3: just want to find out who this is and is
Speaker 3: this truck actually associated with the crime. I think there's
Speaker 3: probably a high likelihood it is, but we have to
Speaker 3: get to that point first. Before you know, they actually
Speaker 3: put the bracelets on anybody and you see them purp
Speaker 3: walking into a courthouse somewhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the other part of this case that
Speaker 2: you think professional would not use the tire from the
Speaker 2: vehicle they were driving to get to the scene or
Speaker 2: flee the scene. That's the thing that's like, why would
Speaker 2: I did believe the tire there and it just brings
Speaker 2: things into question.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break.
Speaker 2: One of the other items in talking to Kirsten Jared's
Speaker 2: wife is the vehicle, the Volk Flagon he was driving,
Speaker 2: the police still have it. Her insurance company tolded it
Speaker 2: to let the police have it. Kristen had to sign
Speaker 2: a release form so the police could pull what's one
Speaker 2: as the black box from Jared's vehicle? What kind of
Speaker 2: information is collected on the what is a black box?
Speaker 2: And what kind of information is collected on that inside
Speaker 2: a vehicle? And then they had security camera videos in
Speaker 2: their house, but she had hidden some extra ones underneath
Speaker 2: the bed, adding debate in the kids room. Uh, they
Speaker 2: had found a USB stick in his vehicle that was
Speaker 2: recording audio and so apparently he had so he had
Speaker 2: confronted her about this. But one of the things Deanna
Speaker 2: and I was, it's only he put a tracking device
Speaker 2: on his vehicle that night or before to see where
Speaker 2: he was going, to be able to see where.
Speaker 3: He was at and when they could commit.
Speaker 2: The crime where right? Yeah, police would have searched the
Speaker 2: car for that, correct.
Speaker 3: Yeah. They they would have gone from stem to stern
Speaker 3: searching the undercarriage of the vehicle. And I would assume
Speaker 3: that the technology exists for them to sweep the vehicle
Speaker 3: electronically to see if there's anything that may have been
Speaker 3: giving off a signal. My assumption is is if they
Speaker 3: still have this vehicle, that it would be being held
Speaker 3: and that if there was an item on there that
Speaker 3: would be providing any kind of signal that could be
Speaker 3: sent back somewhere, they would be able to find it located.
Speaker 3: That technology does in fact exist. We've seen it in
Speaker 3: several other cases where you know, people were tracking others,
Speaker 3: you know, famously in the Pike in case, you know,
Speaker 3: where the police they put trackers on the Wagner family's
Speaker 3: vehicles and they became you know, very very very much
Speaker 3: aware of that. So yeah, and it's possible for people
Speaker 3: to you know, to do.
Speaker 1: This unless they grabbed it before they left, right, Like
Speaker 1: they left an air tag on the car, and they
Speaker 1: grabbed it before they left, right.
Speaker 3: And they removed it from there. But if you've got
Speaker 3: an air tag, I would imagine that there is some
Speaker 3: kind of digital footprint that's left behind relative to the
Speaker 3: existence of that air tag, as it applies back to
Speaker 3: an account that it's associated with, and that would be
Speaker 3: something that could track as well. And it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's like pulling it teeth to get get data from
Speaker 3: them and they're working on a case. From everything I've
Speaker 3: been able to understand regarding cases involved in the you know,
Speaker 3: digital digital evidence, you know, police contract things relatively easy,
Speaker 3: dependent upon they pulled the information off of local towers
Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. We're talking about cell phone data,
Speaker 3: these other items that are kind of buried within the
Speaker 3: technology of Apple. I think that that's a bit more
Speaker 3: difficult to harvest out of there.
Speaker 1: It's just hard to imagine. Somebody is hiding in that
Speaker 1: wooded area, right and they have to know if Jared
Speaker 1: was targeted, they have to know he's coming. He's going
Speaker 1: to be here in forty seconds. Let's say, I gotta
Speaker 1: I gotta put the I gotta leave my little spot
Speaker 1: and put the tire in the middle of the road
Speaker 1: and get back to my spot. So they have to
Speaker 1: be able to communicate that, right, Like, they have to
Speaker 1: know And how are they going to know he's coming
Speaker 1: if they're hiding.
Speaker 2: That would be based on the fact that Jared was
Speaker 2: been targeting.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what I'm saying. Assuming he was targeted, they
Speaker 1: either have to have communications with somebody maybe following Jared,
Speaker 1: like I'm right behind him. There's nobody behind me. We're
Speaker 1: going to be there in forty five seconds, so they
Speaker 1: have to be communicating with somebody that's hiding or he's
Speaker 1: being dropped. There's no other way to do this. I
Speaker 1: thought we should talk to forensic specialist Joseph Morgan. He
Speaker 1: might be able to help talk us through the crime
Speaker 1: seat a little.
Speaker 2: The last piece of evidence at the scene, unfortunately, with
Speaker 2: Jared and his body, so they're what we've been told
Speaker 2: or what you can read about, is that he was shot. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: the suspect shot.
Speaker 5: On close quarters within three or four feet, and they
Speaker 5: know this because around the bullet wounds is stiffling.
Speaker 2: Can you talk about stippling and how important that is?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you think about stifling. The best way
Speaker 3: to kind of described to people that have never seen
Speaker 3: most people can think about a water hose okay, and
Speaker 3: if you have an attachment on the water hose, a
Speaker 3: sprayer okay, the tighter de strayer is pulled is kind
Speaker 3: of tight down on it. You know, you get this
Speaker 3: kind of long stream right it comes out. However, you
Speaker 3: can take a sprayer on a water hose and open
Speaker 3: it and it comes out almost like a range shower.
Speaker 3: I don't know, if you're kind of visualize in that,
Speaker 3: but it kind of sprays out and it's kind of why, well,
Speaker 3: imagine that that is a weapon that's being fired, and
Speaker 3: so the further away you are from the target area,
Speaker 3: the broader the deposition of the stippling is going to be.
Speaker 3: So the further you are away from your target area,
Speaker 3: with the analogy of the water hose, the spray will
Speaker 3: be broader. Okay, it'll be less concentric, it will kind
Speaker 3: of spread out. Same thing applies to the fire when
Speaker 3: you fire a weapon into a static location, whether it's
Speaker 3: you know, a target that you have end up on
Speaker 3: a tree or a firing range, or into a human.
Speaker 3: If you're within with pan guns, if you're within about
Speaker 3: eighteen inches, that's going to be kind of the out
Speaker 3: limit where the power itself that is not burned up
Speaker 3: is just going to kind of drift down to the
Speaker 3: ground because it's not powder itself is not very aerodynamic
Speaker 3: what the bullet is. So once that initial burst, you know,
Speaker 3: the ground is popped off if you will, the lack
Speaker 3: of aerodynaticism of the powder will cause it just kind
Speaker 3: of just away and the bullets spinning out of the
Speaker 3: end of the the end of the weapon is going
Speaker 3: to maintain and retain its energy until it strikes its target.
Speaker 3: So what we can understand here is that the closer
Speaker 3: you are through the target, the tighter the stippling pattern
Speaker 3: will be. So you know, when you're you know, we
Speaker 3: have we do what are called the sparious ranges. Will
Speaker 3: say close close range, which would be you know, within
Speaker 3: about one to two inches, all right, And before you
Speaker 3: get close trained you have what's reports to as heart
Speaker 3: content pressed attact, which means the muscle is pressed into
Speaker 3: the target location, into the skin, and when you pull
Speaker 3: trigger and in initiates, you're not going to have a
Speaker 3: lot of powder because it's all being blown into the wound,
Speaker 3: into the cavities and created. So he stepped back, you
Speaker 3: go to you know, two to three inches. That's close.
Speaker 3: And then before you drift back, you get into this
Speaker 3: realm that's called intermediate. Now, intermediate is kind of meduless.
Speaker 3: You know, they'll people will try to apply different ranges
Speaker 3: to it and say, well, this person was definitely add
Speaker 3: a ten inch raine. Okay, maybe they were, but you
Speaker 3: it's it's going to be depended upon several facts. But
Speaker 3: what we can surmise is if the police are saying
Speaker 3: that there was stippling on Jared's body adjacent to this wound,
Speaker 3: we know that the killer was in relatively close proximity
Speaker 3: to him as his weapons being fount If they're saying
Speaker 3: three to four feet, that would be at the outer
Speaker 3: powder limits of of what you would find with powdered distribution.
Speaker 3: And when they're saying stippling, you know, stipling, you have
Speaker 3: it on clothing, you truly can. But generally stippling is
Speaker 3: something that you know, most of the time we talk
Speaker 3: about relative to you know, scan so I'd be very
Speaker 3: curious to know where, you know, where this entrance land was,
Speaker 3: you know, Other than that you're begin to think about,
Speaker 3: you know, when you're talking about clothing, generally the term
Speaker 3: issues just powdered distribution. So that's kind of you know,
Speaker 3: stippling is a very specific anatomical statement that you're making
Speaker 3: there because the powder is burned, it's kind of beneath,
Speaker 3: kind of embedded itself beneath the epidermis, and you can
Speaker 3: really see it. You know, it's it's striking, you know
Speaker 3: all it's easy to search out on the webcam to
Speaker 3: this quite quite easily, and so you get an idea
Speaker 3: of different ranges for that. You know, you get up
Speaker 3: we're talking about why they have a bit more distance
Speaker 3: to them, you know, you know that claim that that
Speaker 3: will go out, you know, several feet and we'll just
Speaker 3: still get a powdered distribution. It's a lot more power
Speaker 3: though that you're talking about what you're talking about rock.
Speaker 2: All right, Well, that that answers all my questions regarding that. Yes, sure,
Speaker 2: anything anything for you, danna No.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm overwhelmed. More on that next time.
Speaker 4: True Crimes is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Deanna Thompson,
Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong, Jeff Shane, Andrew Arnaut, and me John Green.
Speaker 4: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Gabe Castile, Editing by
Speaker 4: Jeff Ti Music by Vanicor Music.
Speaker 1: True Crimes is a production of iHeart Radio and Katie Studios.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, please visit the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to your favorite shows.