Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.
Speaker 1: I'm a loser if also we know what I'm paying
Speaker 1: me either a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against
Speaker 1: women at a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 2: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. I
Speaker 2: see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1: This is In Cells, a production of KT Studios and
Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode eleven. What's the solve?
Speaker 2: I think that's the hardest part of it.
Speaker 3: You probably could have stepped in earlier, but it's almost
Speaker 3: like you don't want to see what's really happening in
Speaker 3: front of your face.
Speaker 4: We're asking, essentially these kids to be really, really safe
Speaker 4: and behaved in a live environment worth billions and billions
Speaker 4: of people just saying all the things, posting all the things.
Speaker 4: Do we have to give them a fully accessible outlet
Speaker 4: to the world in the palm of their hands any
Speaker 4: earlier than necessary, I already know.
Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker,
Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Throughout this series,
Speaker 1: we've heard from self described in Cells experts, journalists, victims, families,
Speaker 1: and advocates, but from a different perspective. We wanted to
Speaker 1: talk with someone who's witnessed the shift up close, someone
Speaker 1: who's actually seen a young man fall into insuldom. Our
Speaker 1: goal here is to share the early signs, to watch
Speaker 1: out for the moments that may show up in the
Speaker 1: lives of people you know, and how to step in
Speaker 1: if possible. We also wanted to look toward prevention, simple
Speaker 1: actionable steps families can take before any issues arise. Later
Speaker 1: in the episode, we'll hear from digital safety expert Katie
Speaker 1: Greer about what that can look like. But first, here's Weezy.
Speaker 1: She works closely with boys and young men, often in
Speaker 1: those critical years when confidence, identity, and below are being shaped.
Speaker 3: I own a sports therapy practice and I'm basically it's
Speaker 3: my job to recover athletes from sports related injuries.
Speaker 2: So that's what I do for a living.
Speaker 3: So self actualization through fitness is kind of my bag.
Speaker 3: So I have a lot of young men that will
Speaker 3: connect to me, that will be asking me questions. My
Speaker 3: inbox is usually always open. Right now, I have about
Speaker 3: six or seven kids that are asking me questions about fitness.
Speaker 2: Well, they saw this on Instagram. What do I think
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 3: They'll come, they'll have questions, they'll want to hear something,
Speaker 3: and they want to hear something positive from a woman.
Speaker 3: So I leave myself open online. Probably not the best
Speaker 3: thing in the world, but I do it anyway.
Speaker 1: We connected with Wheezy after reaching out on Twitter looking
Speaker 1: for someone who had witnessed these transformations firsthand. We wanted
Speaker 1: to know what the early signs look like and what
Speaker 1: the rest of us might take from her experience. Our
Speaker 1: first question to her was simple, why speak with us?
Speaker 3: I want to talk about these experiences from a kind
Speaker 3: of neutral perspective because I actually saw one of these
Speaker 3: situations go down in real time through someone that I
Speaker 3: had connected with. I see what happens to these young men,
Speaker 3: and it hurts my heart to see because I saw
Speaker 3: somebody with potential destroy that potential all on their own
Speaker 3: because they got in with the wrong people who were
Speaker 3: feeding them information or just lies basically, and getting them
Speaker 3: to think things that just weren't true. A lot of times,
Speaker 3: these kids are lost, they're lost, they're broken, and they're
Speaker 3: looking for somebody to tell them that they're not. And
Speaker 3: the people that create these insults are the people that
Speaker 3: are preying on them for their own gain, at least
Speaker 3: from what I can see.
Speaker 1: We knew Weezy's experience centered around one man in particular,
Speaker 1: so he asked her to take us back to the beginning.
Speaker 1: How she first met him.
Speaker 3: It was online through discord and there's a Twitch channel
Speaker 3: for the NHL team that I'm contracted through.
Speaker 2: I met him. He had just turned towards he was
Speaker 2: in college.
Speaker 3: He was talking about fitness because he had access to
Speaker 3: the sports complex that was part of the.
Speaker 2: College, and so we went over diet, We went over
Speaker 2: all kinds of different things, and that was fine.
Speaker 3: That was perfectly fine, you know, it was just kind
Speaker 3: of lose weight and look better.
Speaker 2: Okay. Well, over time, we're connecting and we were.
Speaker 3: Talking and I noticed small things though it was here
Speaker 3: there that's bitter of he was trying to date and
Speaker 3: he wasn't having success.
Speaker 2: And then he started.
Speaker 3: Talking to me about how he didn't work out that
Speaker 3: day because he was feeling this and that over something
Speaker 3: that happened at a party, and that's when the discussions
Speaker 3: went into that way. And sometimes that happens, Like you
Speaker 3: have your your clients that you're as much a therapy session.
Speaker 2: As you are a training session.
Speaker 3: It was one of those things where he got into
Speaker 3: college and I think he expected when he got to
Speaker 3: college that he was going to just be like dating
Speaker 3: and doing the whole frack boy thing. And when that
Speaker 3: didn't have happened, one of the things that I did
Speaker 3: with him and when we talked, was I said, well,
Speaker 3: what's happening in your life? What's going on with you
Speaker 3: right now? Where do you feel like you're failing? We
Speaker 3: could have those conversations, but soon it reached the point
Speaker 3: where the issue wasn't oh, well, maybe I came on
Speaker 3: too strong with this, so the thing is, oh, she's
Speaker 3: just a stuck up bitch. Once or twice you hear that,
Speaker 3: But you started seeing it more and more that it
Speaker 3: wasn't me, it was them. It's the no self accountability,
Speaker 3: and the self accountability that was there in the beginning
Speaker 3: gradually eroded to the point where every interaction was her
Speaker 3: fault and it was just because she doesn't want a
Speaker 3: nice guy, and it was always that nice guy or
Speaker 3: women don't want to be treated properly. Okay, that's not
Speaker 3: what that interaction was.
Speaker 1: Weezy started to notice a shift. The self reflection he
Speaker 1: once had was gone and when real life didn't match
Speaker 1: that fantasy, his frustration grew. Weezy tried to see him
Speaker 1: toward working on himself. First.
Speaker 3: It got to the point where we couldn't analyze the
Speaker 3: interactions anymore and say where one or both people might
Speaker 3: have went wrong or in a perfect world, how would
Speaker 3: you have liked that to go? And okay, well why
Speaker 3: do you think it didn't go that way? But he
Speaker 3: reached the point where that analysis couldn't take place. And
Speaker 3: it also haided when he was trying to get out
Speaker 3: and dating, and he expected dating to go.
Speaker 2: A certain way that it wasn't. And that's where I
Speaker 2: think a lot of these kids go wrong.
Speaker 3: They're given this idealized fantasy of what walking up to
Speaker 3: a woman or dming her through an app it's supposed
Speaker 3: to follow this script. And I was trying to convince
Speaker 3: him that he had some stuff he needed to work
Speaker 3: through before he considered dating, and maybe that's why things
Speaker 3: weren't going so well.
Speaker 2: But instead he.
Speaker 3: Was listening to these podcasts and I noticed his demeanor,
Speaker 3: the way he talked, the phrases he was using. It
Speaker 3: evolved or devolved, I would say, into something that was
Speaker 3: just mean spirited nasty and misogynistic.
Speaker 1: The podcasts Wheezy as referring to are just one slice
Speaker 1: of the misogynistic media these young men often fall into.
Speaker 1: And the shift she noticed in his demeanor is something
Speaker 1: experts and parents consistently describe when a young man suddenly
Speaker 1: adopts an new language, harsher attitudes, or an unfamiliar worldview.
Speaker 1: Those are early red flags and they shouldn't be ignored.
Speaker 3: It's almost like misogynistic alpha male, where it's about sleeping
Speaker 3: with as many women as you can and treating them
Speaker 3: all like garbage. It's more of she needs to be
Speaker 3: submissive to you, and the bitch needs to know her place.
Speaker 3: You can cheat on her as much as you want.
Speaker 3: She better not even look at another man. She better
Speaker 3: stay home, rely on you. You need to hurt be
Speaker 3: her protector or provider, but she needs to toe the
Speaker 3: line and you're.
Speaker 2: Gonna kick her to the curb. Like just nasty stuff.
Speaker 3: And I know to guide young men away from them,
Speaker 3: because they're not teaching them anything that is going to
Speaker 3: get them a good life partner. They're teaching them how
Speaker 3: to be abusive to their life partner.
Speaker 2: It's gross.
Speaker 3: It starts really really small you see a little thing
Speaker 3: here and there, and you're like, oh, I'm just reading
Speaker 3: too much into it. He's having a bad day, he
Speaker 3: said something pissy. Okay, you overlook it, but it's something
Speaker 3: that kind of snowballs. And where it's snowballs is really
Speaker 3: just all of a sudden, you look up and this
Speaker 3: person is just saying things. You're like, it's like it's
Speaker 3: somebody you don't know. It's weird how fast it happens.
Speaker 3: It seems like it's become his personality. He talks like them,
Speaker 3: it's alpha, it's this, it's that, And whenever he gets rejected,
Speaker 3: it's this long diatribe about how women just don't want
Speaker 3: to be treated right. And it's a constant thing. And
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, honey, no, you're creating the problem that
Speaker 3: you think that this is solving.
Speaker 2: It's like there's a point of no return.
Speaker 3: And some of the young men that I've dealt with,
Speaker 3: where they have these emotions and they don't know how
Speaker 3: to channel them. I've noticed that when you discuss them,
Speaker 3: you validate their feelings and you teach them how to
Speaker 3: process them that they don't go down this path. This
Speaker 3: particular kid that we're talking about that went down this
Speaker 3: in cell path wasn't given that, and he found people
Speaker 3: in his life outside that were willing to tell him
Speaker 3: what he wanted to hear for their own self gratification.
Speaker 1: The young man Wheezy had been describing wasn't getting the
Speaker 1: guidance he needed at home, and he ended up finding
Speaker 1: it from people who told them exactly what he wanted
Speaker 1: to hear for all the wrong reasons. Wheezy says that
Speaker 1: pattern isn't unique, and his story shows just how quickly
Speaker 1: these communities can exploit kids who are already hurting.
Speaker 3: They basically prayed on him. They take money from these
Speaker 3: kids and they tell them that they need to be
Speaker 3: hyper sexual, but then they shame them for it. They
Speaker 3: create this problem, they shame them for it, and they
Speaker 3: tell them, well, I had the way to fix it
Speaker 3: as an outsider. It's just like you get so mad
Speaker 3: at these people. These are the kind of kids that
Speaker 3: these red pillars go after. They're broken, they're lost, they're hurt.
Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking, it really is, because what these kids really
Speaker 3: just need is someone to say, yes, you're worth being loved.
Speaker 3: They're told that they can feel better and they'll heal
Speaker 3: if they just fuck.
Speaker 2: Enough women in a nutshell.
Speaker 3: They're pips, and they want these boys to go after
Speaker 3: the women like that because they sell cam girls. They're
Speaker 3: just doing this to line their own pockets. They don't
Speaker 3: give a shit about these kids. They'll tell them whatever
Speaker 3: lies they want to hear so that they'll continue to
Speaker 3: pay into their cam service.
Speaker 2: Our last conversation was probably about.
Speaker 3: A year ago, and his ideology turns something very wholesome
Speaker 3: into something disgusting and toxic.
Speaker 1: At first, it was subtle, repeating catch phrases from the
Speaker 1: podcast he'd been listening to, mimicking the swagger of the
Speaker 1: influencers he adalyzed little things she brushed off as a phase.
Speaker 1: But over a few months it became his whole personality,
Speaker 1: and the young man she knew was harder and harder
Speaker 1: to recognize.
Speaker 3: He had that kind of monkey see monkey doo attitude
Speaker 3: towards what he was listening to. It was a lot
Speaker 3: of the phrases that they use on these podcasts, and
Speaker 3: then they became like his lexicon over time. It probably
Speaker 3: took about six months for it to be like for
Speaker 3: the final transformation. It's something that doesn't happen overnight. It
Speaker 3: happens over time, and I think in the initial two
Speaker 3: months or so, it's so gradual that I don't feel
Speaker 3: like I noticed it as being a problem until it
Speaker 3: got to the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore.
Speaker 2: And I think it's.
Speaker 3: Because I knew what it was like before, and I
Speaker 3: was thinking that, Okay, this is just a phase. He's
Speaker 3: just having a bad patch. But it kept getting worse.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what happens in these cases, is
Speaker 3: we see it getting there, but we know the sweet
Speaker 3: guy that he used to be, and we keep holding
Speaker 3: out hope that he's going to revert back to that,
Speaker 3: But then they don't. I think that's the hardest part
Speaker 3: of it. You probably could have stepped in earlier, but
Speaker 3: it's almost like you don't want to see what's really
Speaker 3: happening in front of your face, that you don't step
Speaker 3: in when you probably should.
Speaker 2: And if you do, is it going to do anything?
Speaker 1: Weezy said, that's what makes this pattern so difficult. You
Speaker 1: hope they'll snap out of it, but the shift keeps deepening,
Speaker 1: and beneath it all, many of these boys and men
Speaker 1: are hurting far more than they let on.
Speaker 3: I listen to them because if somebody's crying, they hurt.
Speaker 3: Understanding the suicide rates in men, how high they are
Speaker 3: is because they feel like they have no one they
Speaker 3: can come to. That's a problem. There is no reason
Speaker 3: why someone should be so out of hope that they
Speaker 3: take their own lives. We need to get to them
Speaker 3: and just be like, hey, reach your hand out and say, hey,
Speaker 3: you're hurt.
Speaker 2: I give a shit, come here. Most of the time.
Speaker 3: Just sitting there listening to them, and I find keeps
Speaker 3: them from going down this road. Really is just to
Speaker 3: listen to them and let them know that they're hurt
Speaker 3: and that's okay. How do we help you heal? Why
Speaker 3: do they feel this way? And how do we fix it?
Speaker 3: Is the conversation we should be having. We're just talking
Speaker 3: about how it's toxic masculinity, and I don't think that
Speaker 3: helps when someone is lonely and isolated. It has a
Speaker 3: lot to do with the social media age, because we
Speaker 3: are the most connected we've ever been, but also the
Speaker 3: loneliest because.
Speaker 2: We connect online.
Speaker 3: But those relationships are parasocial, They're not real, and I
Speaker 3: think that we have lost the ability to create relationships.
Speaker 3: I've been doing this for twenty five years, and I've
Speaker 3: watched the difference in the way that the generations interact.
Speaker 3: And I have kids that have panic attacks making phone calls,
Speaker 3: and that's the conversation we should be having, is how
Speaker 3: do we teach these kids to have healthy relationships and
Speaker 3: to form healthy relationships in the insul conversation, That's the
Speaker 3: conversation we're having, is that why are they so lonely
Speaker 3: and lost? And how do we get to them and
Speaker 3: get to that hurt place and help them figure it out.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 1: a moment. Here's a conversation I had with Katie Greer.
Speaker 1: She's CEO, founder, and keynote speaker of k L. Greer Consulting.
Speaker 1: It's an educational consulting company that talks to students pre
Speaker 1: k through college, to parents, caregivers, law enforcement, and corporations
Speaker 1: about how we can use tech in thoughtful, safe, and
Speaker 1: productive ways to understand what prevention actually looks like. We
Speaker 1: spoke with Katie about practical, actionable tech steps families can take.
Speaker 1: This goes from protecting young children to helping adults who
Speaker 1: may already need intervention. We started by asking her about
Speaker 1: kids preschool through second grade. Here's Katie Greer.
Speaker 4: I think one of our issues is that we don't
Speaker 4: start early enough.
Speaker 5: No matter what you feel or what your.
Speaker 4: Rules are around technology access, the reality of the situation
Speaker 4: is that technology is all around us. So having these
Speaker 4: conversations early and often around our expectations and rules in
Speaker 4: our household and how this is going to work, or
Speaker 4: you know, Mommy is going to make sure I put
Speaker 4: my phone down when I'm driving, or that Mom's not
Speaker 4: going to use my phone at dinner because it's not
Speaker 4: polite when I'm trying to eat dinner and talk to you.
Speaker 4: And we can start this stuff when our kids can talk.
Speaker 4: Quite frankly, it's like, how do you cross the road?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 4: I think it is vitally important given the technology a
Speaker 4: driven world that we live in right now.
Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense just literally leading
Speaker 1: by example to start.
Speaker 4: We have to be better about this too if we
Speaker 4: want our kids to be good at it.
Speaker 5: And I think if we can admit.
Speaker 4: That without feeling shamed by the way, like, look, we
Speaker 4: were given this stuff without any instructions, without knowing what
Speaker 4: it was going to do to us, without knowing that
Speaker 4: it was going to.
Speaker 5: Sluck us in like it did.
Speaker 4: Then we hit COVID, where we didn't know if we'd
Speaker 4: ever be able to talk to people again in person.
Speaker 4: So like, be gentle with yourselves, but like ask yourself,
Speaker 4: can we be better going forward?
Speaker 2: So moving on to more elementary school.
Speaker 4: The amount of parents that don't know what these kids
Speaker 4: have access to even as early as third grade is
Speaker 4: something that is alarming and a bit.
Speaker 5: Frightening from my perspective. At least.
Speaker 4: One of the things I think of immediately is like
Speaker 4: gaming right online gaming and the amount of parents that
Speaker 4: don't know that their kids can actually game with random strangers.
Speaker 4: The amount of parents who just think that their kids
Speaker 4: are gaming like we used to with Nintendo, or that
Speaker 4: they're only playing with their friends, or like why would
Speaker 4: they even want to talk.
Speaker 5: To a stranger?
Speaker 4: I think that that is wildly overlooked by parents. So
Speaker 4: I think in this period is where parents really need
Speaker 4: to start to like dig in a bit and learn
Speaker 4: learn along with your kids. Right roadblocks. Right has had
Speaker 4: a lot of issues lately, basically unknowingly exposing kids to
Speaker 4: a bunch of really adult related stuff and parents also
Speaker 4: not having any idea that these kids can join user
Speaker 4: generated worlds that are super inappropriate.
Speaker 1: With kids encountering these platforms younger and younger, we wanted
Speaker 1: to know the practical side. What steps can parents take
Speaker 1: right now to keep their children safe.
Speaker 4: This is the time that parents need to do some
Speaker 4: homework and learn about things, and by the way, really
Speaker 4: great news technology can help us with that.
Speaker 5: Go to chat GPT.
Speaker 4: Hey, my fourth grader wants to hop on roadblocks with
Speaker 4: his friends or her friends. What do I need to
Speaker 4: know about roadblocks?
Speaker 5: What is it?
Speaker 4: What's dangerous about it? What's great about it? What are
Speaker 4: some settings I can use to keep my kids safe?
Speaker 4: Ask chatchept really really great resource for us to have.
Speaker 4: This is the time that it goes from me telling
Speaker 4: my kids what to do or not to do, to
Speaker 4: me being really involved in the stuff that they're starting
Speaker 4: to do, because I think the earlier we have these
Speaker 4: conversations and we set these rules and expectations, the easier
Speaker 4: it is when they get older.
Speaker 1: Are you a big fan of parents putting into place settings?
Speaker 4: I am with the caveat that all of these settings
Speaker 4: that are out there, there's some adorable twelve year old
Speaker 4: that talks about how to get around those settings. So
Speaker 4: we can't just slap those on our kids' devices and
Speaker 4: think that our job is done, Like we are the
Speaker 4: first line of defense. So while I think they're helpful,
Speaker 4: I think there could be a tool, They're not the
Speaker 4: only thing that's going to help the kids stay safe.
Speaker 4: So knowing that that is an option and something that
Speaker 4: can help you out is great, But relying on it
Speaker 4: is where I get nervous.
Speaker 2: What goes on in middle school?
Speaker 1: What do people need to know?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 5: God, where do we start? Bigger kids, bigger problems? Right?
Speaker 4: This is when the settings and the rules really need
Speaker 4: to come in because this is developmentally, not because kids
Speaker 4: are horrible, and not because technology is horrible, but developmentally,
Speaker 4: these kids are going through a lot, and hormones are changing,
Speaker 4: and friend groups are changing, and kids are getting more
Speaker 4: access to devices earlier and earlier, and now they're getting
Speaker 4: access to social media, and now we have to really
Speaker 4: execute and our heads have to kind of be on
Speaker 4: a swivel to hope that we can get our kids
Speaker 4: to a place and practice what we preach.
Speaker 5: These are when things that I start.
Speaker 4: To worry about can happen, like group chats and access
Speaker 4: to videos that we didn't want them to have access to.
Speaker 5: Here's where the big conversations start to come in about what.
Speaker 4: It is that we're seeing, asking them every day about
Speaker 4: did you see things that made you feel good?
Speaker 5: Did you see things that you had questions about?
Speaker 4: Our kids are being pummeled at that age, that middle
Speaker 4: school age, with so much information, whether it's from classmates
Speaker 4: or the Internet or social media, that we got to
Speaker 4: roll up our sleeves at that point and start to
Speaker 4: really ask some of the tough questions.
Speaker 1: Researchers have run tests creating accounts as twelve year olds,
Speaker 1: and consistently, in under half an hour, those accounts were
Speaker 1: hit with alarming content they never searched for. It's almost
Speaker 1: like the Internet was coming for them. I asked Katie
Speaker 1: what our thoughts on this were.
Speaker 4: This has been replicated so many times, and you know
Speaker 4: what is a bit confusing that all of these companies
Speaker 4: now know this meta TikTok Snapchat, and what they've done
Speaker 4: is they've put in filters that says, if your child
Speaker 4: signs up as someone under the age of sixteen, we
Speaker 4: have these automatic filters in place that will filter out
Speaker 4: all this stuff. And we know that filters are shoddy,
Speaker 4: They are inconsistent at best. And even if they were great,
Speaker 4: something that filters out the word sex, I'm going to
Speaker 4: learn as a creator who wants more views, I don't
Speaker 4: care if they're five years old or fifty five years old.
Speaker 4: If I want more views, I'm going to learn that
Speaker 4: sex is being blocked out. So I'm going to do
Speaker 4: dollar sign ex instead. So now even that wonderful filter
Speaker 4: that may pick up all sex is going to go
Speaker 4: around that.
Speaker 5: It's the constant cat and mouse game. So I'm happy
Speaker 5: that companies are starting to pay attention to this stuff.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's nearly enough, quite frankly, and it
Speaker 4: is kind of this false sense of security that exists
Speaker 4: out there because filters, like I said, are inconsistent, and
Speaker 4: even when they are consistent, people figure out how to
Speaker 4: circumvent them. So that means nothing to me at this
Speaker 4: moment that the way that filters are working and the
Speaker 4: way that these sets are does not make me feel
Speaker 4: any better about the content that my kids may or
Speaker 4: may not see looking for or not under the age
Speaker 4: of sixteen on these social media apps. So with high
Speaker 4: schoolers again, that brain from elementary school to post graduation
Speaker 4: of college, we know that kids' brains aren't fully formed
Speaker 4: until they're twenty five years old. And when we think
Speaker 4: about social media in particular, which we could talk about anything.
Speaker 4: We could talk about group text messages or Google searches
Speaker 4: or YouTube or whatever, it doesn't really matter. But if
Speaker 4: we think about social media or the Internet in general,
Speaker 4: it's a live environment where there are billions and billions
Speaker 4: of people active, and it's not entirely live moderated. So
Speaker 4: we're asking essentially these kids to be really really proficient
Speaker 4: and good and safe and behaved in a live environment
Speaker 4: with billions of people just saying all the things, posting
Speaker 4: all the things, and expecting that they're going to be
Speaker 4: really good at it. That can't be developmentally biologically speaking,
Speaker 4: they cannot.
Speaker 5: They're not.
Speaker 4: I like to think as a parent, I think she
Speaker 4: would make the right choices, but it's not even about
Speaker 4: that at this point. It's about what other people are
Speaker 4: doing or saying. This has been an existence long parenting dilemma,
Speaker 4: like how do we keep our kids safe?
Speaker 5: We don't know.
Speaker 4: We have to practice. It's practice, and we got to
Speaker 4: show up as parents to help them practice. In high school, specifically,
Speaker 4: I asked.
Speaker 1: Katie how she handles tech with her own kids when
Speaker 1: she introduces certain devices, and the reasoning behind her approach.
Speaker 4: I didn't get my daughter a phone, her own device
Speaker 4: until she was fourteen this past August and going into
Speaker 4: a freshman year in high school, because that's what I
Speaker 4: decided for my family and for my daughter, and I
Speaker 4: thought that it was really important to have rules, written,
Speaker 4: rules established, Like we've talked about rules, since she could
Speaker 4: talk around devices even though she didn't have access to them,
Speaker 4: but I wanted to establish written rules that I wrote,
Speaker 4: that she read.
Speaker 5: And agreed and signed to.
Speaker 4: To put in writing, which I think is kind of
Speaker 4: significant and symbolic my expectation around this device, which I
Speaker 4: have paid.
Speaker 5: For I continue to pay for.
Speaker 4: It is a privilege which I wanted to be treated
Speaker 4: as such that can also be taken away should there
Speaker 4: be violations.
Speaker 5: For me, creating this contract for her.
Speaker 4: Which is three pages long, twelve point font, double sided,
Speaker 4: was not just about do this, don't do this, you
Speaker 4: can't look at this, no social media.
Speaker 5: It was also about being polite with.
Speaker 4: Devices, because devices have made us so impolite. And imagine
Speaker 4: if I was like talking to you here right now,
Speaker 4: just being like yeah, and I'm focused on you and
Speaker 4: I'm talking, but everyone's in a while, I'm glancing at
Speaker 4: my phone and every once in a while I'm chit
Speaker 4: chatting like this, Like that just made it's not polite.
Speaker 5: So a big part of.
Speaker 4: This for me was about creating a polite consumer as
Speaker 4: well as like, yeah, don't do stupid stuff, So that
Speaker 4: was included a lot in my contract. Courteous behavior when
Speaker 4: it comes to devices is something that I think our
Speaker 4: society has really freaking failed that, and I don't want
Speaker 4: my kids to fail, So that was a big part
Speaker 4: of this contract.
Speaker 1: I was curious if there's an ideal age for kids
Speaker 1: to get their own devices or how parents should approach
Speaker 1: that decision.
Speaker 4: I have a really bad answer to that, and that
Speaker 4: is it's not a one size fits all. Kids should
Speaker 4: get devices at X years old and they're all going
Speaker 4: to be fine. I think it is very very individual.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you, within my own family, my daughter and
Speaker 4: my son, just because I gave my daughter a phone
Speaker 4: at fourteen years old does not mean that my son
Speaker 4: is going to get the same privilege, or that I
Speaker 4: wouldn't do it sooner, or that I wouldn't do it
Speaker 4: way later. That's going to be different than it is
Speaker 4: with my daughter. So I guess I really encourage parents
Speaker 4: to think about their family needs. One, why did your
Speaker 4: family need kids to have access to devices? And there's
Speaker 4: some really good answers stuff by the way, like maybe
Speaker 4: my kids come home alone in the afternoon because I'm working.
Speaker 4: So look at your family's needs and answer that why
Speaker 4: do they need it? Not?
Speaker 5: And by the way, I am.
Speaker 4: Really against the well they need it because everyone else
Speaker 4: has it thing they don't. I promise, I promise there
Speaker 4: are ways around it. I promise there are ways to
Speaker 4: socialize without it.
Speaker 5: So what are our family needs? Number one? And number two?
Speaker 4: The individuals who are being given these privileges, whether it's
Speaker 4: devices or social media, and their individual needs as well.
Speaker 4: So I guess I really implore parents to think about
Speaker 4: why and why for each member of their household. You know,
Speaker 4: their alternatives too, right, My daughter had a gizmo watch
Speaker 4: so I could still be in touch with her and
Speaker 4: she could be in touch with me. And not saying
Speaker 4: your child has to be like an outcast not have
Speaker 4: any former communication, but like, do we have to give
Speaker 4: them a fully accessible outlet to the world in the
Speaker 4: palm of their hands any earlier than necessary. I alreadue,
Speaker 4: you know, but I'll say this one final thing. I've
Speaker 4: never met a parent that gave their child the device
Speaker 4: at any age and said I did that right. That
Speaker 4: was the exact right, like all parents are, like I
Speaker 4: wish I had waited, I wish i'd and I still
Speaker 4: wish I could have waited. So I yeah, really really
Speaker 4: taking that into consideration is important, and I think definitely
Speaker 4: having a backbone as a parent being like it.
Speaker 5: Sucks, I get it, trust me. My daughter cried to
Speaker 5: me all the time.
Speaker 4: She made a really beautiful PowerPoint about why she should
Speaker 4: have her own device many Christmases in a row, and
Speaker 4: it sucks and I'm the worst mom and I don't
Speaker 4: get it and all these things. I had to weigh
Speaker 4: out the pros and the cons for my family and
Speaker 4: for her. And that's kind of where we landed, which
Speaker 4: may be different than where other people land and that's okay,
Speaker 4: think about it and think about it like long and hard.
Speaker 5: For sure.
Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
Speaker 1: a moment. We then moved on to one of the
Speaker 1: most common danger zones online gaming. I asked, Katie, what's
Speaker 1: your family do when kids are playing with strangers or
Speaker 1: frighteningly when someone contacts them who shouldn't.
Speaker 4: Well, first, I like to be preventative about this. It
Speaker 4: is amazing to me how many people just don't know
Speaker 4: that's how games work. The fact that parents don't know
Speaker 4: that kids can play against other people, I think is important,
Speaker 4: and the fact that they can play against complete random strangers.
Speaker 4: That's how these things are set up. So I think
Speaker 4: first and foremost prevention is really important. So for adults
Speaker 4: to in caregivers to say know this and be also
Speaker 4: use some settings in these games around these consoles so
Speaker 4: that kids aren't just randomly talking to complete random strangers.
Speaker 4: Every single game that exists out there has these settings
Speaker 4: that you can utilize either within the game or in
Speaker 4: the consoles themselves, so that kids can still play these games,
Speaker 4: but they're not playing against people in who'z Bekistan half
Speaker 4: the Night on Minecraft or Fortnite or Call of Duty
Speaker 4: or whatever it may be.
Speaker 5: So I think that is a really really big thing.
Speaker 1: Is that something you would suggest people chat GBT to
Speaker 1: figure out how to prevent.
Speaker 5: So the good news is that there's a whole bunch
Speaker 5: of ways, and there's a whole bunch of settings in
Speaker 5: every game, So I would just say.
Speaker 4: My son is playing Call of Duty on his switch,
Speaker 4: he's eight years old or he's eighteen years old.
Speaker 5: How do I make this safe?
Speaker 4: What are some settings that I can use to make
Speaker 4: sure he's not talking to strangers? To make sure those
Speaker 4: locations not being shared? And can you walk me through
Speaker 4: how to do that?
Speaker 2: The location sharing?
Speaker 4: That location sharing is on freaking everything right now, and
Speaker 4: most of it is opt out, which I hate, meaning
Speaker 4: that most of it is automatically on and you have
Speaker 4: to go in and turn it off. In social networking,
Speaker 4: it's just really disturbing. But I'll also make another point,
Speaker 4: especially with middle school and high school students, it's kind
Speaker 4: of like a status thing to share that in high school,
Speaker 4: in middle school, even in college sometimes it is a
Speaker 4: staddust thing, like we're besties. I trust you, you trust me,
Speaker 4: like you know that I'm going to Sephora right now
Speaker 4: or that I'm just hanging out at my house. But
Speaker 4: it also causes so much drama. And it's also so
Speaker 4: when we talk about healthy relationships, that is not healthy.
Speaker 5: That is not healthy.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's healthy as a mom that I know where
Speaker 4: my kid goes, but it's not healthy that my friends know,
Speaker 4: unless it's a safety issue. I guess just in general,
Speaker 4: that our friends know where we are, or our boyfriends
Speaker 4: or partners or girlfriends know we are every second of
Speaker 4: the day.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think that that is weird personally, and I think
Speaker 4: it can be dangerous. Also today, if I know that
Speaker 4: you're checking in at a concert or whatever, you're at
Speaker 4: your baseball game, have a blast. I'm coming to rob
Speaker 4: your goddamn house also because I know that you're not home, so,
Speaker 4: like you know what I mean. Hopefully normal people aren't
Speaker 4: programmed to think, oh, I'm just sharing them I'm having
Speaker 4: a really great lunch with my friend, that someone's going
Speaker 4: to go rob my house or someone's going to track
Speaker 4: my movements.
Speaker 5: But your listeners no more than anyone else.
Speaker 4: There's weird goddamn people out there that maybe don't think
Speaker 4: like we do. So if we can be better about
Speaker 4: that stuff, by the way, spill that information to our
Speaker 4: kids too.
Speaker 5: Why it might not be a good idea to do
Speaker 5: something like that.
Speaker 1: Do you talk about Internet addiction and what to do
Speaker 1: with that, because that seems endemic.
Speaker 5: Do you have like six hours?
Speaker 4: I think the crux of this quite frankly, is something
Speaker 4: I kind of touched upon earlier, which is.
Speaker 5: It was not our fault to begin with.
Speaker 4: I should say maybe it's our fault going forward now
Speaker 4: that we know what we know, And what I mean
Speaker 4: by that is, like this stuff when it came out
Speaker 4: to us, we didn't think to ask any questions about
Speaker 4: what does this mean?
Speaker 5: What does this do? How do these things operate? Now
Speaker 5: that we know better and we.
Speaker 4: Have undisputable brain scans and research and every day I
Speaker 4: don't even know what stats to share anymore because they're
Speaker 4: all just so overwhelming. I think we need to acknowledge
Speaker 4: that this is a thing. It's a thing for adults,
Speaker 4: not just kids. As we're like shaking our fingers at
Speaker 4: kids these days being so bad with technology, we statistically
Speaker 4: are worse than there. So we got to fix the problem.
Speaker 4: Can we just ask ourselves? Can I be better about
Speaker 4: my screen time today than I was yesterday? I don't
Speaker 4: need you to ditch the phone all together, but like,
Speaker 4: are there things that we can be better at every
Speaker 4: single day? Because it's truly not just for our not
Speaker 4: just because, but for our mental health. Right anxiety and
Speaker 4: depression is through the roof and for our physical health,
Speaker 4: for our relationships. Can we be better and put the
Speaker 4: stuff down? Can we be better parents? Can we be
Speaker 4: better workers? I know I sure as hell could be.
Speaker 4: If I put.
Speaker 5: My phone on, do not deserve a little bit?
Speaker 4: I get a lot more shit done then I would,
Speaker 4: as it's sit near buzzin' and ding in twenty five
Speaker 4: times a minute, and then I get sidetracked and whatever
Speaker 4: I think? Can we ask ourselves every day? Can we
Speaker 4: be better at this tomorrow than we were today? And
Speaker 4: maybe we can start to build better habits.
Speaker 1: With adults, it can be even trickier. I gave the
Speaker 1: hypothetical of someone in their twenties who barely logs off
Speaker 1: and is growing more isolated. I asked if there were
Speaker 1: any tips on how to help when an adult is
Speaker 1: being consumed by life online.
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that is a misconception
Speaker 4: across the board, but certainly for adults too.
Speaker 5: We're not talking about no tech here. We're not talking
Speaker 5: about throw that thing away you're addicted.
Speaker 4: I encourage people to think about is it's not just
Speaker 4: about put your phone away, It's about look at the
Speaker 4: other things that we can do to get the same
Speaker 4: Dopamine hit but in a different way because again, like
Speaker 4: we could talk about this for hours, there's this whole
Speaker 4: dopamine cycle that we get and it's a physiological response
Speaker 4: to using these devices, into notifications, into all of the things.
Speaker 4: But we can get that physiological response from other things,
Speaker 4: from going on for a walk, from playing games, from
Speaker 4: talking to people, from exercising, from reading a book, from
Speaker 4: all these other things.
Speaker 5: So can we introduce that.
Speaker 4: Can we say things not like you're addicted, can you
Speaker 4: get off your phone.
Speaker 5: Get off your computer? Or weirdo, why you want.
Speaker 1: It as much?
Speaker 4: But can we say something like, hey, tonight at four o'clock,
Speaker 4: we're gonna have a game night, or we're all gonna
Speaker 4: go for a family walk together. So I'm not taking
Speaker 4: my device, we're putting devices away. We're doing family game night,
Speaker 4: and then we're having family dinner. We're doing a family
Speaker 4: movie night tomorrow night. Which also we have research that
Speaker 4: having a family movie night without devices is different than
Speaker 4: us all sitting on our couches on devices. We're engaging,
Speaker 4: we're snuggling, we're laughing at the movie together saying like
Speaker 4: oh did you hear what he just said or whatever.
Speaker 5: That's a good form of engagement with screens.
Speaker 4: So I think replacing or suggesting other things can be
Speaker 4: a really great way to prompt people that might be
Speaker 4: really far down this path into other alternatives that make
Speaker 4: your body and your mind feel just as good, but
Speaker 4: just doing something different.
Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. In Cells is
Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Speaker 1: Jeff Ti, music by Vanicorse. Studios. In Cells is a
Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.