1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm a loser if also we know what I'm paying 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: me either a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: women at a deadly tipping point. 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. I 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: see literally zero hope. 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: This is In Cells, a production of KT Studios and 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode eleven. What's the solve? 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: I think that's the hardest part of it. 10 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 3: You probably could have stepped in earlier, but it's almost 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 3: like you don't want to see what's really happening in 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 3: front of your face. 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 4: We're asking, essentially these kids to be really, really safe 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 4: and behaved in a live environment worth billions and billions 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 4: of people just saying all the things, posting all the things. 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 4: Do we have to give them a fully accessible outlet 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 4: to the world in the palm of their hands any 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 4: earlier than necessary, I already know. 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker, 20 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Throughout this series, 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: we've heard from self described in Cells experts, journalists, victims, families, 22 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: and advocates, but from a different perspective. We wanted to 23 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: talk with someone who's witnessed the shift up close, someone 24 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: who's actually seen a young man fall into insuldom. Our 25 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 1: goal here is to share the early signs, to watch 26 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: out for the moments that may show up in the 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: lives of people you know, and how to step in 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: if possible. We also wanted to look toward prevention, simple 29 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: actionable steps families can take before any issues arise. Later 30 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,559 Speaker 1: in the episode, we'll hear from digital safety expert Katie 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: Greer about what that can look like. But first, here's Weezy. 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: She works closely with boys and young men, often in 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: those critical years when confidence, identity, and below are being shaped. 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: I own a sports therapy practice and I'm basically it's 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: my job to recover athletes from sports related injuries. 36 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: So that's what I do for a living. 37 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: So self actualization through fitness is kind of my bag. 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: So I have a lot of young men that will 39 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 3: connect to me, that will be asking me questions. My 40 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 3: inbox is usually always open. Right now, I have about 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: six or seven kids that are asking me questions about fitness. 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, they saw this on Instagram. What do I think 43 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 2: of it. 44 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,239 Speaker 3: They'll come, they'll have questions, they'll want to hear something, 45 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 3: and they want to hear something positive from a woman. 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: So I leave myself open online. Probably not the best 47 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 3: thing in the world, but I do it anyway. 48 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 1: We connected with Wheezy after reaching out on Twitter looking 49 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: for someone who had witnessed these transformations firsthand. We wanted 50 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: to know what the early signs look like and what 51 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: the rest of us might take from her experience. Our 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: first question to her was simple, why speak with us? 53 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: I want to talk about these experiences from a kind 54 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: of neutral perspective because I actually saw one of these 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 3: situations go down in real time through someone that I 56 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,399 Speaker 3: had connected with. I see what happens to these young men, 57 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: and it hurts my heart to see because I saw 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: somebody with potential destroy that potential all on their own 59 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 3: because they got in with the wrong people who were 60 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 3: feeding them information or just lies basically, and getting them 61 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: to think things that just weren't true. A lot of times, 62 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,679 Speaker 3: these kids are lost, they're lost, they're broken, and they're 63 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 3: looking for somebody to tell them that they're not. And 64 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: the people that create these insults are the people that 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 3: are preying on them for their own gain, at least 66 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: from what I can see. 67 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: We knew Weezy's experience centered around one man in particular, 68 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: so he asked her to take us back to the beginning. 69 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: How she first met him. 70 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 3: It was online through discord and there's a Twitch channel 71 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 3: for the NHL team that I'm contracted through. 72 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: I met him. He had just turned towards he was 73 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: in college. 74 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: He was talking about fitness because he had access to 75 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 3: the sports complex that was part of the. 76 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: College, and so we went over diet, We went over 77 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: all kinds of different things, and that was fine. 78 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 3: That was perfectly fine, you know, it was just kind 79 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 3: of lose weight and look better. 80 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: Okay. Well, over time, we're connecting and we were. 81 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 3: Talking and I noticed small things though it was here 82 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 3: there that's bitter of he was trying to date and 83 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 3: he wasn't having success. 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: And then he started. 85 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: Talking to me about how he didn't work out that 86 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 3: day because he was feeling this and that over something 87 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: that happened at a party, and that's when the discussions 88 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 3: went into that way. And sometimes that happens, Like you 89 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: have your your clients that you're as much a therapy session. 90 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: As you are a training session. 91 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: It was one of those things where he got into 92 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: college and I think he expected when he got to 93 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 3: college that he was going to just be like dating 94 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: and doing the whole frack boy thing. And when that 95 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: didn't have happened, one of the things that I did 96 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 3: with him and when we talked, was I said, well, 97 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: what's happening in your life? What's going on with you 98 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 3: right now? Where do you feel like you're failing? We 99 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: could have those conversations, but soon it reached the point 100 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 3: where the issue wasn't oh, well, maybe I came on 101 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 3: too strong with this, so the thing is, oh, she's 102 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 3: just a stuck up bitch. Once or twice you hear that, 103 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 3: But you started seeing it more and more that it 104 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 3: wasn't me, it was them. It's the no self accountability, 105 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 3: and the self accountability that was there in the beginning 106 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 3: gradually eroded to the point where every interaction was her 107 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: fault and it was just because she doesn't want a 108 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: nice guy, and it was always that nice guy or 109 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 3: women don't want to be treated properly. Okay, that's not 110 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 3: what that interaction was. 111 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: Weezy started to notice a shift. The self reflection he 112 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: once had was gone and when real life didn't match 113 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: that fantasy, his frustration grew. Weezy tried to see him 114 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: toward working on himself. First. 115 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: It got to the point where we couldn't analyze the 116 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: interactions anymore and say where one or both people might 117 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: have went wrong or in a perfect world, how would 118 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: you have liked that to go? And okay, well why 119 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 3: do you think it didn't go that way? But he 120 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: reached the point where that analysis couldn't take place. And 121 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: it also haided when he was trying to get out 122 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: and dating, and he expected dating to go. 123 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 2: A certain way that it wasn't. And that's where I 124 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: think a lot of these kids go wrong. 125 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 3: They're given this idealized fantasy of what walking up to 126 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: a woman or dming her through an app it's supposed 127 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 3: to follow this script. And I was trying to convince 128 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 3: him that he had some stuff he needed to work 129 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: through before he considered dating, and maybe that's why things 130 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:47,559 Speaker 3: weren't going so well. 131 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 2: But instead he. 132 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: Was listening to these podcasts and I noticed his demeanor, 133 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: the way he talked, the phrases he was using. It 134 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 3: evolved or devolved, I would say, into something that was 135 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 3: just mean spirited nasty and misogynistic. 136 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: The podcasts Wheezy as referring to are just one slice 137 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: of the misogynistic media these young men often fall into. 138 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: And the shift she noticed in his demeanor is something 139 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: experts and parents consistently describe when a young man suddenly 140 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: adopts an new language, harsher attitudes, or an unfamiliar worldview. 141 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: Those are early red flags and they shouldn't be ignored. 142 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: It's almost like misogynistic alpha male, where it's about sleeping 143 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 3: with as many women as you can and treating them 144 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 3: all like garbage. It's more of she needs to be 145 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: submissive to you, and the bitch needs to know her place. 146 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 3: You can cheat on her as much as you want. 147 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: She better not even look at another man. She better 148 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 3: stay home, rely on you. You need to hurt be 149 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 3: her protector or provider, but she needs to toe the 150 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 3: line and you're. 151 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 2: Gonna kick her to the curb. Like just nasty stuff. 152 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 3: And I know to guide young men away from them, 153 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 3: because they're not teaching them anything that is going to 154 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 3: get them a good life partner. They're teaching them how 155 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 3: to be abusive to their life partner. 156 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: It's gross. 157 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 3: It starts really really small you see a little thing 158 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 3: here and there, and you're like, oh, I'm just reading 159 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 3: too much into it. He's having a bad day, he 160 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 3: said something pissy. Okay, you overlook it, but it's something 161 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,119 Speaker 3: that kind of snowballs. And where it's snowballs is really 162 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 3: just all of a sudden, you look up and this 163 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 3: person is just saying things. You're like, it's like it's 164 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: somebody you don't know. It's weird how fast it happens. 165 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 3: It seems like it's become his personality. He talks like them, 166 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,119 Speaker 3: it's alpha, it's this, it's that, And whenever he gets rejected, 167 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: it's this long diatribe about how women just don't want 168 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: to be treated right. And it's a constant thing. And 169 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: it's like, oh, honey, no, you're creating the problem that 170 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 3: you think that this is solving. 171 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: It's like there's a point of no return. 172 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 3: And some of the young men that I've dealt with, 173 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 3: where they have these emotions and they don't know how 174 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: to channel them. I've noticed that when you discuss them, 175 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 3: you validate their feelings and you teach them how to 176 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: process them that they don't go down this path. This 177 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: particular kid that we're talking about that went down this 178 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 3: in cell path wasn't given that, and he found people 179 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: in his life outside that were willing to tell him 180 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: what he wanted to hear for their own self gratification. 181 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: The young man Wheezy had been describing wasn't getting the 182 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: guidance he needed at home, and he ended up finding 183 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: it from people who told them exactly what he wanted 184 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: to hear for all the wrong reasons. Wheezy says that 185 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: pattern isn't unique, and his story shows just how quickly 186 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: these communities can exploit kids who are already hurting. 187 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 3: They basically prayed on him. They take money from these 188 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: kids and they tell them that they need to be 189 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 3: hyper sexual, but then they shame them for it. They 190 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 3: create this problem, they shame them for it, and they 191 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 3: tell them, well, I had the way to fix it 192 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: as an outsider. It's just like you get so mad 193 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 3: at these people. These are the kind of kids that 194 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 3: these red pillars go after. They're broken, they're lost, they're hurt. 195 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking, it really is, because what these kids really 196 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 3: just need is someone to say, yes, you're worth being loved. 197 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: They're told that they can feel better and they'll heal 198 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 3: if they just fuck. 199 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: Enough women in a nutshell. 200 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 3: They're pips, and they want these boys to go after 201 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: the women like that because they sell cam girls. They're 202 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 3: just doing this to line their own pockets. They don't 203 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 3: give a shit about these kids. They'll tell them whatever 204 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 3: lies they want to hear so that they'll continue to 205 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: pay into their cam service. 206 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 2: Our last conversation was probably about. 207 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: A year ago, and his ideology turns something very wholesome 208 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: into something disgusting and toxic. 209 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: At first, it was subtle, repeating catch phrases from the 210 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: podcast he'd been listening to, mimicking the swagger of the 211 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: influencers he adalyzed little things she brushed off as a phase. 212 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: But over a few months it became his whole personality, 213 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: and the young man she knew was harder and harder 214 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: to recognize. 215 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 3: He had that kind of monkey see monkey doo attitude 216 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: towards what he was listening to. It was a lot 217 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: of the phrases that they use on these podcasts, and 218 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: then they became like his lexicon over time. It probably 219 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: took about six months for it to be like for 220 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: the final transformation. It's something that doesn't happen overnight. It 221 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 3: happens over time, and I think in the initial two 222 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: months or so, it's so gradual that I don't feel 223 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 3: like I noticed it as being a problem until it 224 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 3: got to the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore. 225 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: And I think it's. 226 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: Because I knew what it was like before, and I 227 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: was thinking that, Okay, this is just a phase. He's 228 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 3: just having a bad patch. But it kept getting worse. 229 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: And I think that's what happens in these cases, is 230 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: we see it getting there, but we know the sweet 231 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 3: guy that he used to be, and we keep holding 232 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 3: out hope that he's going to revert back to that, 233 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 3: But then they don't. I think that's the hardest part 234 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: of it. You probably could have stepped in earlier, but 235 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 3: it's almost like you don't want to see what's really 236 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 3: happening in front of your face, that you don't step 237 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 3: in when you probably should. 238 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: And if you do, is it going to do anything? 239 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: Weezy said, that's what makes this pattern so difficult. You 240 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: hope they'll snap out of it, but the shift keeps deepening, 241 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: and beneath it all, many of these boys and men 242 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: are hurting far more than they let on. 243 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: I listen to them because if somebody's crying, they hurt. 244 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: Understanding the suicide rates in men, how high they are 245 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: is because they feel like they have no one they 246 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 3: can come to. That's a problem. There is no reason 247 00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 3: why someone should be so out of hope that they 248 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: take their own lives. We need to get to them 249 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: and just be like, hey, reach your hand out and say, hey, 250 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 3: you're hurt. 251 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 2: I give a shit, come here. Most of the time. 252 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: Just sitting there listening to them, and I find keeps 253 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: them from going down this road. Really is just to 254 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 3: listen to them and let them know that they're hurt 255 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: and that's okay. How do we help you heal? Why 256 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: do they feel this way? And how do we fix it? 257 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: Is the conversation we should be having. We're just talking 258 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 3: about how it's toxic masculinity, and I don't think that 259 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: helps when someone is lonely and isolated. It has a 260 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: lot to do with the social media age, because we 261 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 3: are the most connected we've ever been, but also the 262 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: loneliest because. 263 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: We connect online. 264 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: But those relationships are parasocial, They're not real, and I 265 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 3: think that we have lost the ability to create relationships. 266 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: I've been doing this for twenty five years, and I've 267 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 3: watched the difference in the way that the generations interact. 268 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 3: And I have kids that have panic attacks making phone calls, 269 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 3: and that's the conversation we should be having, is how 270 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: do we teach these kids to have healthy relationships and 271 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 3: to form healthy relationships in the insul conversation, That's the 272 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: conversation we're having, is that why are they so lonely 273 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: and lost? And how do we get to them and 274 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: get to that hurt place and help them figure it out. 275 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 276 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: a moment. Here's a conversation I had with Katie Greer. 277 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: She's CEO, founder, and keynote speaker of k L. Greer Consulting. 278 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: It's an educational consulting company that talks to students pre 279 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: k through college, to parents, caregivers, law enforcement, and corporations 280 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: about how we can use tech in thoughtful, safe, and 281 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: productive ways to understand what prevention actually looks like. We 282 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: spoke with Katie about practical, actionable tech steps families can take. 283 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: This goes from protecting young children to helping adults who 284 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: may already need intervention. We started by asking her about 285 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: kids preschool through second grade. Here's Katie Greer. 286 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 4: I think one of our issues is that we don't 287 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 4: start early enough. 288 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 5: No matter what you feel or what your. 289 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 4: Rules are around technology access, the reality of the situation 290 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 4: is that technology is all around us. So having these 291 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 4: conversations early and often around our expectations and rules in 292 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 4: our household and how this is going to work, or 293 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 4: you know, Mommy is going to make sure I put 294 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 4: my phone down when I'm driving, or that Mom's not 295 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 4: going to use my phone at dinner because it's not 296 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 4: polite when I'm trying to eat dinner and talk to you. 297 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 4: And we can start this stuff when our kids can talk. 298 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: Quite frankly, it's like, how do you cross the road? 299 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 5: Right? 300 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: I think it is vitally important given the technology a 301 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 4: driven world that we live in right now. 302 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense just literally leading 303 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: by example to start. 304 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: We have to be better about this too if we 305 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 4: want our kids to be good at it. 306 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 5: And I think if we can admit. 307 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 4: That without feeling shamed by the way, like, look, we 308 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 4: were given this stuff without any instructions, without knowing what 309 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 4: it was going to do to us, without knowing that 310 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: it was going to. 311 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 5: Sluck us in like it did. 312 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 4: Then we hit COVID, where we didn't know if we'd 313 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 4: ever be able to talk to people again in person. 314 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 4: So like, be gentle with yourselves, but like ask yourself, 315 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: can we be better going forward? 316 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: So moving on to more elementary school. 317 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 4: The amount of parents that don't know what these kids 318 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 4: have access to even as early as third grade is 319 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 4: something that is alarming and a bit. 320 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 5: Frightening from my perspective. At least. 321 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 4: One of the things I think of immediately is like 322 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 4: gaming right online gaming and the amount of parents that 323 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 4: don't know that their kids can actually game with random strangers. 324 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 4: The amount of parents who just think that their kids 325 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 4: are gaming like we used to with Nintendo, or that 326 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 4: they're only playing with their friends, or like why would 327 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 4: they even want to talk. 328 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 5: To a stranger? 329 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 4: I think that that is wildly overlooked by parents. So 330 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 4: I think in this period is where parents really need 331 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 4: to start to like dig in a bit and learn 332 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,479 Speaker 4: learn along with your kids. Right roadblocks. Right has had 333 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 4: a lot of issues lately, basically unknowingly exposing kids to 334 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 4: a bunch of really adult related stuff and parents also 335 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 4: not having any idea that these kids can join user 336 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 4: generated worlds that are super inappropriate. 337 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 1: With kids encountering these platforms younger and younger, we wanted 338 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: to know the practical side. What steps can parents take 339 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: right now to keep their children safe. 340 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 4: This is the time that parents need to do some 341 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 4: homework and learn about things, and by the way, really 342 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 4: great news technology can help us with that. 343 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 5: Go to chat GPT. 344 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 4: Hey, my fourth grader wants to hop on roadblocks with 345 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 4: his friends or her friends. What do I need to 346 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 4: know about roadblocks? 347 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 5: What is it? 348 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 4: What's dangerous about it? What's great about it? What are 349 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 4: some settings I can use to keep my kids safe? 350 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 4: Ask chatchept really really great resource for us to have. 351 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 4: This is the time that it goes from me telling 352 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 4: my kids what to do or not to do, to 353 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 4: me being really involved in the stuff that they're starting 354 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 4: to do, because I think the earlier we have these 355 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 4: conversations and we set these rules and expectations, the easier 356 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 4: it is when they get older. 357 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,400 Speaker 1: Are you a big fan of parents putting into place settings? 358 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 4: I am with the caveat that all of these settings 359 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 4: that are out there, there's some adorable twelve year old 360 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 4: that talks about how to get around those settings. So 361 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 4: we can't just slap those on our kids' devices and 362 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 4: think that our job is done, Like we are the 363 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 4: first line of defense. So while I think they're helpful, 364 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 4: I think there could be a tool, They're not the 365 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 4: only thing that's going to help the kids stay safe. 366 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 4: So knowing that that is an option and something that 367 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 4: can help you out is great, But relying on it 368 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 4: is where I get nervous. 369 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 2: What goes on in middle school? 370 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: What do people need to know? 371 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? 372 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 5: God, where do we start? Bigger kids, bigger problems? Right? 373 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 4: This is when the settings and the rules really need 374 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: to come in because this is developmentally, not because kids 375 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 4: are horrible, and not because technology is horrible, but developmentally, 376 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 4: these kids are going through a lot, and hormones are changing, 377 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 4: and friend groups are changing, and kids are getting more 378 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 4: access to devices earlier and earlier, and now they're getting 379 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 4: access to social media, and now we have to really 380 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 4: execute and our heads have to kind of be on 381 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 4: a swivel to hope that we can get our kids 382 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 4: to a place and practice what we preach. 383 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 5: These are when things that I start. 384 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 4: To worry about can happen, like group chats and access 385 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 4: to videos that we didn't want them to have access to. 386 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 5: Here's where the big conversations start to come in about what. 387 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 4: It is that we're seeing, asking them every day about 388 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: did you see things that made you feel good? 389 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 5: Did you see things that you had questions about? 390 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 4: Our kids are being pummeled at that age, that middle 391 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 4: school age, with so much information, whether it's from classmates 392 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 4: or the Internet or social media, that we got to 393 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 4: roll up our sleeves at that point and start to 394 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 4: really ask some of the tough questions. 395 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: Researchers have run tests creating accounts as twelve year olds, 396 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: and consistently, in under half an hour, those accounts were 397 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: hit with alarming content they never searched for. It's almost 398 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: like the Internet was coming for them. I asked Katie 399 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: what our thoughts on this were. 400 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: This has been replicated so many times, and you know 401 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 4: what is a bit confusing that all of these companies 402 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 4: now know this meta TikTok Snapchat, and what they've done 403 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 4: is they've put in filters that says, if your child 404 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 4: signs up as someone under the age of sixteen, we 405 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 4: have these automatic filters in place that will filter out 406 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 4: all this stuff. And we know that filters are shoddy, 407 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 4: They are inconsistent at best. And even if they were great, 408 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 4: something that filters out the word sex, I'm going to 409 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 4: learn as a creator who wants more views, I don't 410 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 4: care if they're five years old or fifty five years old. 411 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 4: If I want more views, I'm going to learn that 412 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 4: sex is being blocked out. So I'm going to do 413 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 4: dollar sign ex instead. So now even that wonderful filter 414 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 4: that may pick up all sex is going to go 415 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 4: around that. 416 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 5: It's the constant cat and mouse game. So I'm happy 417 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 5: that companies are starting to pay attention to this stuff. 418 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 4: I don't think it's nearly enough, quite frankly, and it 419 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 4: is kind of this false sense of security that exists 420 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 4: out there because filters, like I said, are inconsistent, and 421 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 4: even when they are consistent, people figure out how to 422 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 4: circumvent them. So that means nothing to me at this 423 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 4: moment that the way that filters are working and the 424 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 4: way that these sets are does not make me feel 425 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 4: any better about the content that my kids may or 426 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 4: may not see looking for or not under the age 427 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 4: of sixteen on these social media apps. So with high 428 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 4: schoolers again, that brain from elementary school to post graduation 429 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 4: of college, we know that kids' brains aren't fully formed 430 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 4: until they're twenty five years old. And when we think 431 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 4: about social media in particular, which we could talk about anything. 432 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 4: We could talk about group text messages or Google searches 433 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 4: or YouTube or whatever, it doesn't really matter. But if 434 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 4: we think about social media or the Internet in general, 435 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 4: it's a live environment where there are billions and billions 436 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 4: of people active, and it's not entirely live moderated. So 437 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 4: we're asking essentially these kids to be really really proficient 438 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 4: and good and safe and behaved in a live environment 439 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 4: with billions of people just saying all the things, posting 440 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 4: all the things, and expecting that they're going to be 441 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: really good at it. That can't be developmentally biologically speaking, 442 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 4: they cannot. 443 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 5: They're not. 444 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 4: I like to think as a parent, I think she 445 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 4: would make the right choices, but it's not even about 446 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 4: that at this point. It's about what other people are 447 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 4: doing or saying. This has been an existence long parenting dilemma, 448 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 4: like how do we keep our kids safe? 449 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 5: We don't know. 450 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 4: We have to practice. It's practice, and we got to 451 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 4: show up as parents to help them practice. In high school, specifically, 452 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 4: I asked. 453 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: Katie how she handles tech with her own kids when 454 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: she introduces certain devices, and the reasoning behind her approach. 455 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 4: I didn't get my daughter a phone, her own device 456 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 4: until she was fourteen this past August and going into 457 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 4: a freshman year in high school, because that's what I 458 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: decided for my family and for my daughter, and I 459 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 4: thought that it was really important to have rules, written, 460 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 4: rules established, Like we've talked about rules, since she could 461 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 4: talk around devices even though she didn't have access to them, 462 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 4: but I wanted to establish written rules that I wrote, 463 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 4: that she read. 464 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 5: And agreed and signed to. 465 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 4: To put in writing, which I think is kind of 466 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 4: significant and symbolic my expectation around this device, which I 467 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 4: have paid. 468 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 5: For I continue to pay for. 469 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,679 Speaker 4: It is a privilege which I wanted to be treated 470 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 4: as such that can also be taken away should there 471 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 4: be violations. 472 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 5: For me, creating this contract for her. 473 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 4: Which is three pages long, twelve point font, double sided, 474 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 4: was not just about do this, don't do this, you 475 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 4: can't look at this, no social media. 476 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 5: It was also about being polite with. 477 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 4: Devices, because devices have made us so impolite. And imagine 478 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 4: if I was like talking to you here right now, 479 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 4: just being like yeah, and I'm focused on you and 480 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 4: I'm talking, but everyone's in a while, I'm glancing at 481 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 4: my phone and every once in a while I'm chit 482 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 4: chatting like this, Like that just made it's not polite. 483 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 5: So a big part of. 484 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: This for me was about creating a polite consumer as 485 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 4: well as like, yeah, don't do stupid stuff, So that 486 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 4: was included a lot in my contract. Courteous behavior when 487 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 4: it comes to devices is something that I think our 488 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,199 Speaker 4: society has really freaking failed that, and I don't want 489 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 4: my kids to fail, So that was a big part 490 00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 4: of this contract. 491 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: I was curious if there's an ideal age for kids 492 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: to get their own devices or how parents should approach 493 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: that decision. 494 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 4: I have a really bad answer to that, and that 495 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 4: is it's not a one size fits all. Kids should 496 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 4: get devices at X years old and they're all going 497 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 4: to be fine. I think it is very very individual. 498 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 4: I'll tell you, within my own family, my daughter and 499 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 4: my son, just because I gave my daughter a phone 500 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 4: at fourteen years old does not mean that my son 501 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 4: is going to get the same privilege, or that I 502 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 4: wouldn't do it sooner, or that I wouldn't do it 503 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 4: way later. That's going to be different than it is 504 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 4: with my daughter. So I guess I really encourage parents 505 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 4: to think about their family needs. One, why did your 506 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 4: family need kids to have access to devices? And there's 507 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 4: some really good answers stuff by the way, like maybe 508 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 4: my kids come home alone in the afternoon because I'm working. 509 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,719 Speaker 4: So look at your family's needs and answer that why 510 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 4: do they need it? Not? 511 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 5: And by the way, I am. 512 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 4: Really against the well they need it because everyone else 513 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 4: has it thing they don't. I promise, I promise there 514 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 4: are ways around it. I promise there are ways to 515 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 4: socialize without it. 516 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 5: So what are our family needs? Number one? And number two? 517 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 4: The individuals who are being given these privileges, whether it's 518 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 4: devices or social media, and their individual needs as well. 519 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 4: So I guess I really implore parents to think about 520 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 4: why and why for each member of their household. You know, 521 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 4: their alternatives too, right, My daughter had a gizmo watch 522 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 4: so I could still be in touch with her and 523 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 4: she could be in touch with me. And not saying 524 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 4: your child has to be like an outcast not have 525 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 4: any former communication, but like, do we have to give 526 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 4: them a fully accessible outlet to the world in the 527 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 4: palm of their hands any earlier than necessary. I alreadue, 528 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 4: you know, but I'll say this one final thing. I've 529 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 4: never met a parent that gave their child the device 530 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 4: at any age and said I did that right. That 531 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 4: was the exact right, like all parents are, like I 532 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 4: wish I had waited, I wish i'd and I still 533 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 4: wish I could have waited. So I yeah, really really 534 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 4: taking that into consideration is important, and I think definitely 535 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 4: having a backbone as a parent being like it. 536 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 5: Sucks, I get it, trust me. My daughter cried to 537 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 5: me all the time. 538 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 4: She made a really beautiful PowerPoint about why she should 539 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 4: have her own device many Christmases in a row, and 540 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 4: it sucks and I'm the worst mom and I don't 541 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 4: get it and all these things. I had to weigh 542 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 4: out the pros and the cons for my family and 543 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 4: for her. And that's kind of where we landed, which 544 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 4: may be different than where other people land and that's okay, 545 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 4: think about it and think about it like long and hard. 546 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 5: For sure. 547 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 548 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: a moment. We then moved on to one of the 549 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: most common danger zones online gaming. I asked, Katie, what's 550 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: your family do when kids are playing with strangers or 551 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: frighteningly when someone contacts them who shouldn't. 552 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,719 Speaker 4: Well, first, I like to be preventative about this. It 553 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 4: is amazing to me how many people just don't know 554 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 4: that's how games work. The fact that parents don't know 555 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 4: that kids can play against other people, I think is important, 556 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,479 Speaker 4: and the fact that they can play against complete random strangers. 557 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 4: That's how these things are set up. So I think 558 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 4: first and foremost prevention is really important. So for adults 559 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: to in caregivers to say know this and be also 560 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 4: use some settings in these games around these consoles so 561 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 4: that kids aren't just randomly talking to complete random strangers. 562 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 4: Every single game that exists out there has these settings 563 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 4: that you can utilize either within the game or in 564 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 4: the consoles themselves, so that kids can still play these games, 565 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 4: but they're not playing against people in who'z Bekistan half 566 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 4: the Night on Minecraft or Fortnite or Call of Duty 567 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 4: or whatever it may be. 568 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 5: So I think that is a really really big thing. 569 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: Is that something you would suggest people chat GBT to 570 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: figure out how to prevent. 571 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 5: So the good news is that there's a whole bunch 572 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 5: of ways, and there's a whole bunch of settings in 573 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 5: every game, So I would just say. 574 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 4: My son is playing Call of Duty on his switch, 575 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 4: he's eight years old or he's eighteen years old. 576 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 5: How do I make this safe? 577 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 4: What are some settings that I can use to make 578 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 4: sure he's not talking to strangers? To make sure those 579 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 4: locations not being shared? And can you walk me through 580 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 4: how to do that? 581 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: The location sharing? 582 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 4: That location sharing is on freaking everything right now, and 583 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 4: most of it is opt out, which I hate, meaning 584 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 4: that most of it is automatically on and you have 585 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 4: to go in and turn it off. In social networking, 586 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 4: it's just really disturbing. But I'll also make another point, 587 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 4: especially with middle school and high school students, it's kind 588 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 4: of like a status thing to share that in high school, 589 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 4: in middle school, even in college sometimes it is a 590 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 4: staddust thing, like we're besties. I trust you, you trust me, 591 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 4: like you know that I'm going to Sephora right now 592 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 4: or that I'm just hanging out at my house. But 593 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 4: it also causes so much drama. And it's also so 594 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 4: when we talk about healthy relationships, that is not healthy. 595 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 5: That is not healthy. 596 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 4: Maybe it's healthy as a mom that I know where 597 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 4: my kid goes, but it's not healthy that my friends know, 598 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 4: unless it's a safety issue. I guess just in general, 599 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 4: that our friends know where we are, or our boyfriends 600 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 4: or partners or girlfriends know we are every second of 601 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 4: the day. 602 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 5: I don't know. 603 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 4: I think that that is weird personally, and I think 604 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 4: it can be dangerous. Also today, if I know that 605 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 4: you're checking in at a concert or whatever, you're at 606 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 4: your baseball game, have a blast. I'm coming to rob 607 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 4: your goddamn house also because I know that you're not home, so, 608 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: like you know what I mean. Hopefully normal people aren't 609 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 4: programmed to think, oh, I'm just sharing them I'm having 610 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 4: a really great lunch with my friend, that someone's going 611 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 4: to go rob my house or someone's going to track 612 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 4: my movements. 613 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 5: But your listeners no more than anyone else. 614 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 4: There's weird goddamn people out there that maybe don't think 615 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 4: like we do. So if we can be better about 616 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 4: that stuff, by the way, spill that information to our 617 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 4: kids too. 618 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 5: Why it might not be a good idea to do 619 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 5: something like that. 620 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: Do you talk about Internet addiction and what to do 621 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: with that, because that seems endemic. 622 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 5: Do you have like six hours? 623 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 4: I think the crux of this quite frankly, is something 624 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 4: I kind of touched upon earlier, which is. 625 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 5: It was not our fault to begin with. 626 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 4: I should say maybe it's our fault going forward now 627 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 4: that we know what we know, And what I mean 628 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 4: by that is, like this stuff when it came out 629 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 4: to us, we didn't think to ask any questions about 630 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 4: what does this mean? 631 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 5: What does this do? How do these things operate? Now 632 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 5: that we know better and we. 633 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 4: Have undisputable brain scans and research and every day I 634 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 4: don't even know what stats to share anymore because they're 635 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 4: all just so overwhelming. I think we need to acknowledge 636 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 4: that this is a thing. It's a thing for adults, 637 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 4: not just kids. As we're like shaking our fingers at 638 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 4: kids these days being so bad with technology, we statistically 639 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 4: are worse than there. So we got to fix the problem. 640 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 4: Can we just ask ourselves? Can I be better about 641 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 4: my screen time today than I was yesterday? I don't 642 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 4: need you to ditch the phone all together, but like, 643 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 4: are there things that we can be better at every 644 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,719 Speaker 4: single day? Because it's truly not just for our not 645 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 4: just because, but for our mental health. Right anxiety and 646 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 4: depression is through the roof and for our physical health, 647 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 4: for our relationships. Can we be better and put the 648 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 4: stuff down? Can we be better parents? Can we be 649 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 4: better workers? I know I sure as hell could be. 650 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 4: If I put. 651 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: My phone on, do not deserve a little bit? 652 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 4: I get a lot more shit done then I would, 653 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 4: as it's sit near buzzin' and ding in twenty five 654 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 4: times a minute, and then I get sidetracked and whatever 655 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 4: I think? Can we ask ourselves every day? Can we 656 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 4: be better at this tomorrow than we were today? And 657 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 4: maybe we can start to build better habits. 658 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: With adults, it can be even trickier. I gave the 659 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: hypothetical of someone in their twenties who barely logs off 660 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: and is growing more isolated. I asked if there were 661 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: any tips on how to help when an adult is 662 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: being consumed by life online. 663 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 4: I think one of the things that is a misconception 664 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 4: across the board, but certainly for adults too. 665 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 5: We're not talking about no tech here. We're not talking 666 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 5: about throw that thing away you're addicted. 667 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 4: I encourage people to think about is it's not just 668 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 4: about put your phone away, It's about look at the 669 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 4: other things that we can do to get the same 670 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 4: Dopamine hit but in a different way because again, like 671 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 4: we could talk about this for hours, there's this whole 672 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 4: dopamine cycle that we get and it's a physiological response 673 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 4: to using these devices, into notifications, into all of the things. 674 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 4: But we can get that physiological response from other things, 675 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 4: from going on for a walk, from playing games, from 676 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 4: talking to people, from exercising, from reading a book, from 677 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 4: all these other things. 678 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 5: So can we introduce that. 679 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 4: Can we say things not like you're addicted, can you 680 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: get off your phone. 681 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 5: Get off your computer? Or weirdo, why you want. 682 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: It as much? 683 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 4: But can we say something like, hey, tonight at four o'clock, 684 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 4: we're gonna have a game night, or we're all gonna 685 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 4: go for a family walk together. So I'm not taking 686 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 4: my device, we're putting devices away. We're doing family game night, 687 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 4: and then we're having family dinner. We're doing a family 688 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 4: movie night tomorrow night. Which also we have research that 689 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 4: having a family movie night without devices is different than 690 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 4: us all sitting on our couches on devices. We're engaging, 691 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 4: we're snuggling, we're laughing at the movie together saying like 692 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 4: oh did you hear what he just said or whatever. 693 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 5: That's a good form of engagement with screens. 694 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 4: So I think replacing or suggesting other things can be 695 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 4: a really great way to prompt people that might be 696 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 4: really far down this path into other alternatives that make 697 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 4: your body and your mind feel just as good, but 698 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 4: just doing something different. 699 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow 700 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. In Cells is 701 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong. 702 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by 703 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: Jeff Ti, music by Vanicorse. Studios. In Cells is a 704 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts 705 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 706 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.