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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Ken Starr is

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Speaker 1: a former federal judge and US Solicitor General, but he's

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Speaker 1: best known as the Independent Council whose Star Report led

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Speaker 1: to the impeachment of President Bill Clinton. In he joins

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Speaker 1: me now to talk about his new book, Contempt, a

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Speaker 1: memoir of the Clinton Investigation. Thanks for being here, Judge Star.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be with you. June. Thank you. You

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Speaker 1: write that you regret taking on the Lewinsky phase of

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Speaker 1: the investigation when you look back, are there things you

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Speaker 1: would have done differently? Or might you have refused the assignment?

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Speaker 1: It would have been very hard to refuse the assignment

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Speaker 1: Um And my own regret, as I continue in the

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Speaker 1: book to say, uh, is that I wish I would

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Speaker 1: already been at Pepperdine University as the dean of the

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Speaker 1: law school with the Lewinsky matter came in the door.

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Speaker 1: My real regret is that Janet Reno that then Attorney

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Speaker 1: General had no one else to look to. Uh. That

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Speaker 1: is sort of the ready reserve, call up the militia,

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Speaker 1: let's let's appoint June as as they hadn't been in

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Speaker 1: the Council. And so we were literally across the street

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Speaker 1: from the Justice Department. We had an ongoing operation. We

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Speaker 1: thought we were coming towards the conclusion of our work

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Speaker 1: both in Little Rock and Washington, d c. UM. But

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Speaker 1: the timing was such and the relationship was such that, UM,

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Speaker 1: we've been given add ons to the investigation, such as

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Speaker 1: the Travel Office firings UH implicating Hillary Clinton, UH, the

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Speaker 1: FBI files matter. Both Bill and Hillary were completely innocent

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Speaker 1: of any wrongdoing in that respect. It was a bureaucratic

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Speaker 1: snaff who Anyway, we had had add ons along the way,

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Speaker 1: so our investigation was broadened, and so this was just

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Speaker 1: more of the same. But it was obviously took on

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Speaker 1: a magnitude that no one I certainly didn't expect. I

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Speaker 1: see similarities between your investigation and Bob Muller's. Do you

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of echoes, June. There sure are, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the demonization of the prosecutor, the prosecutors out on a

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Speaker 1: witch hunt. Bill Clinton never used those words, but as

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Speaker 1: surrogates did. Uh. And let's do everything that we can

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Speaker 1: to stand in the way. Now, let me say this,

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Speaker 1: it's my understanding that month after month after month, President Trump,

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Speaker 1: through his then lawyers, cooperated with the investigation. I was

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Speaker 1: stunned to hear that the Council of the President, Don

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Speaker 1: McGann uh spent thirty hours plus in interviews with the

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Speaker 1: Special Counsel, with Bob Muller and and his team. We

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Speaker 1: did not have that kind of cooperation during the Clinton investigation.

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Speaker 1: You subpoena President Clinton and then worked out in agreement.

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Speaker 1: So do you believe that presidents are subject to subpoenas

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Speaker 1: I do. Uh. That may not be the view of

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department. And this is not a political partisan view.

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Speaker 1: It's the view of the Justice Department over the last many,

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Speaker 1: many years, including during the Clinton administration, that the president

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Speaker 1: United States is not subject to indictment and that the

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Speaker 1: lesser would include a subpoena. But I have a different view, uh,

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Speaker 1: and that is no one is above the law, which

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Speaker 1: I think is one of the principles that, as I

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Speaker 1: describe in the book, emerged out of our investigation, and

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Speaker 1: along the way of the Spring Courts United States and

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Speaker 1: its unanimous decision rebuffing President Clinton's claim for immunity from

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Speaker 1: a civil lawsuit, a sexual harassment lawsuit. UH, the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court spoken very broad terms, we respect the president and

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Speaker 1: the presidency, but above all, no one is above the

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Speaker 1: law and has to respond to the law. So then

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Speaker 1: do you disagree with UH. Judge Kavanaugh, who was up

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Speaker 1: for Supreme Court nomination, worked for you famously on the

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Speaker 1: Clinton investigation. Do you disagree with his current views about

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Speaker 1: presidential power? I don't disagree with his basic proposition in

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Speaker 1: that two thousand nine Minnesota Law Review article June, where

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Speaker 1: he said, these issues of civil litigation, even a criminal investigation,

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Speaker 1: are very distracting to the president. UH. And we live

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Speaker 1: in a dangerous time. He lived through nine eleven UH

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Speaker 1: serving in the Bush forty three administration. And so what

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Speaker 1: that law of the article does is that Congress needs

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Speaker 1: to take a look at this. He did not say.

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Speaker 1: He did not suggest that the Clinton v. Jones case

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Speaker 1: re establishing no one is above the law and even

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Speaker 1: the president's subject to legal process was wrongly decided. He said, Congress,

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Speaker 1: you should take a look at this So do you

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Speaker 1: think President Trump should agree to speak to Muller? There

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Speaker 1: are two perspectives, June. The criminal defense lawyer would say, no,

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Speaker 1: way right, because of fears and so you don't cooperate.

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Speaker 1: But the other perspective, and I take more of the

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Speaker 1: constitutional perspective, is that he is the president United States

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Speaker 1: and Bob Mueller is a duly constituted officer specially appointed

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Speaker 1: to conduct an investigation. So it's all bona fide. So

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Speaker 1: I think from a presidential perspective, there is an obligation.

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Speaker 1: There has been much talk about impeachment, and you lived

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Speaker 1: through that on the other side of the impeachment spectrum,

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Speaker 1: what does it do to the country? Do you you

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Speaker 1: see it in a different light? Oh? I do. And

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Speaker 1: it was one of the problems June with the Special

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Speaker 1: Council Statute at the time, which just built in this

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Speaker 1: force toward impeachment. By its terms, the law required our

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Speaker 1: office to turn over inform aation to the House of

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Speaker 1: Representatives that might involved impeachment. That that's gone, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's good because one of the takeaways, as I

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Speaker 1: describe in the book is impeachment is just hell uh.

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Speaker 1: And the founding generation wisely decided that it should be

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Speaker 1: only where not just a majority of House of Representatives,

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Speaker 1: but much more importantly, at the trial in the Senate,

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Speaker 1: the jury, so to speak, has to be super majority

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Speaker 1: in favor of removal a two thirds. That's almost impossible

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Speaker 1: to achieve. Where their significant arguments on the other side

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Speaker 1: is there certainly were in the Clinton Clinton investigation, and

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Speaker 1: I think what the system did fail us in this

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Speaker 1: sense while we want stability and so forth, and yet

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Speaker 1: there was the sense the president should suffer something. And

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Speaker 1: senad Ian Feinstein served them as now urge very thoughtfully

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Speaker 1: a resolution of censure, which had there been more of

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Speaker 1: a conversation, more reflection on it, I think that might

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Speaker 1: have been the middle ground to attract folks of both parties.

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Speaker 1: You came today, and today was the day that after

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Speaker 1: a long time and one trial, we saw that Paul

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Speaker 1: Manafort pleaded guilty and he will cooperate as a former

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Speaker 1: independent council. Where do you see this? It's what prosecutors want. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The thought maybe, oh no, they're all Perry Mason's or

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor and Perry Mason, I should say, they want

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Speaker 1: to go to trial now. And I feel Bob Mueller

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Speaker 1: is very eager to bring this to an orderly conclusion.

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Speaker 1: And how do you most quickly do that You get

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Speaker 1: cooperation from knowledgeable witnesses. So I think this is a

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Speaker 1: breakthrough moment. We'll see what Paul Maniford has to say.

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Speaker 1: We won't know for a while, but this is a

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Speaker 1: major accomplishment for the Bob Muller team. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for being here a star. The name of the book

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Speaker 1: is Contempt, A Memoir of the Clinton Investigation. Good Luck

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Speaker 1: with the President. Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manaford has

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Speaker 1: agreed to plead guilty to charges brought by Special Counsel

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Speaker 1: Robert Mueller. As part of that deal, he will be

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Speaker 1: cooperating with the prosecutors, joining me as Brad Moss, a

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Speaker 1: partner at mark Z Brad. How much does this change

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Speaker 1: the narrative of the Muller investigation. How big a victory

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Speaker 1: is it for them? Well, this is a major shift

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Speaker 1: and a major point in the Mollo probe. This is

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Speaker 1: arguably what he was aiming for from the beginning. He's

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Speaker 1: always been the belief that he was only going after

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Speaker 1: Manifort in terms of tax fraud at BANKFOD and money

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Speaker 1: laundering issues, because he truly wanted to get a cooperation

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Speaker 1: agreement out of him and find out what, if anything,

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Speaker 1: he knows about possible collusion. Paul Manaford, of course, was

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Speaker 1: the campaign tournament. At one point. He was one of

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Speaker 1: the three people uh in the entire of the Trump

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Speaker 1: universe who could have possibly been involved in any collusion,

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Speaker 1: and so his unvarnished cooperation and the details he could

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Speaker 1: provide was always critical to the Muller investigation. So, Brad,

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Speaker 1: is it unvarnished? Does he have to answer each and

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Speaker 1: every question that prosecutors put to him, or could there

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Speaker 1: possibly be some kind of arrangement where he wouldn't answer

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Speaker 1: questions about certain areas. It depends on the nature of

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Speaker 1: the cooperation agreement. We haven't seen the actual document yet.

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Speaker 1: It would be unlikely unless the Mola team had already

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Speaker 1: didn't need it from the needed fresh from mon certain

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Speaker 1: aspects that they would narrow it like that. It's almost

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Speaker 1: a certain amount the cooperation will be with respect to

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Speaker 1: activities that went on at the Podesta lobbying firms. So

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Speaker 1: this might not have to do with Donald Trump. For

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Speaker 1: on one, at least one aspect of good deal with

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Speaker 1: Sonny Podesta and others. There's a lot in this superseding

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Speaker 1: indictment about that issue. But it's almost certain that a

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Speaker 1: lot of this information that a large scope of the

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Speaker 1: nature of the cooperation agreement will be about what Paul

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Speaker 1: Manafort saw in the campaign and what if anything, he

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Speaker 1: knows about criminal coordination between the campaign and Russian nationals.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Sanders, the White House Press Secretary, has said this

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Speaker 1: had absolutely nothing to do with the president or his

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Speaker 1: victorious presidential campaign. It is totally unrelated. Now could that

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Speaker 1: also be true? Absolutely, it could certainly be true. We

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Speaker 1: can't rule that out. You know, no one has been

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Speaker 1: charged with actual criminal coordination or collusion yet. It's all

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Speaker 1: we have to assume until facts come come to light

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Speaker 1: that there hasn't been been a sentence they're proven guilty.

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Speaker 1: But every time one of these individuals flips, every time

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Speaker 1: one of these individuals such as Gates and Manafort, Flynn

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Speaker 1: slip and provide information to the government, Mueller has a target,

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Speaker 1: knows what he's going after in terms of possible collusion.

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Speaker 1: I don't see him making this very generous deal with

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Speaker 1: Paul Manafort, and less Mr Manafort was able to profer

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Speaker 1: something very significant with respect to the overarching collusion proke.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the deal. According to Politico, they're

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Speaker 1: agreeing to a ten year cap. How good a deal

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Speaker 1: is that for Manaphort. Would he have fared better if

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Speaker 1: he had made the deal before he was convicted in Virginia. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's of course, you have a sixty four thousand dollar

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Speaker 1: question for him, and the Lord knows how much you

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Speaker 1: already spent in legal fees just for that first trial.

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Speaker 1: If he had struck this kind of deal before the

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Speaker 1: original trial out in Virginia, he could have possibly gotten

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Speaker 1: even better sweetheart deal, maybe gotten fewer new years in

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Speaker 1: that of ten years, and may have been three to

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Speaker 1: five something like that, but we'll never know. Now he

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Speaker 1: fought them out there in Virginia. He lost, he was

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Speaker 1: prepping to fight DC. He made this deal. He's gonna

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Speaker 1: get ten years. It's still better than what he would

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Speaker 1: have gotten if he had gone to trial and lost

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Speaker 1: in d C and had two different sentences, one of

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Speaker 1: Virginia one of DC. He could have easily faced twenty

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Speaker 1: or more years. This is not a bad deal. He's

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Speaker 1: still forfeiting a lot of assets. But it's probably the

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Speaker 1: best he could truly negotiate at this point less than

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Speaker 1: a minute here. I just want your reaction. The prosecutors

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Speaker 1: set in court the government would not decide to drop

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Speaker 1: some charges against man Off until his successful cooperation or

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Speaker 1: sentencing is complete. Does that mean they're holding it over him. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's very standard. They're saying, we're not doing anything else

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Speaker 1: and we're not dropping these parts until your information bears

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Speaker 1: fruit that we can corroborate with other people out of

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Speaker 1: their information in other difficult testimony and use it in

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Speaker 1: other cases. All right, thanks so much, Brad. That's Brad Moss,

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Speaker 1: a partner at mark Z and I should mention that

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Speaker 1: if you get a ten year sentence in federal cases,

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Speaker 1: that means you're going to be spending of it. There

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Speaker 1: is no time off for good behavior. It's an eight five,

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Speaker 1: so he'll be spending at least eight and a half

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Speaker 1: years in prison if that ten year cap holds true.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I June Brasso,

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Speaker 1: this is Bloomberg m HM.