Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to the Saturday Selects. I'm Charles W.
Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant, co host of Stuff You Should Know, and
Speaker 1: this week we're going to dive into the archives to
Speaker 1: talk about an episode that I quite enjoyed. Actually it's
Speaker 1: about historic districts. I don't live in a historic district.
Speaker 1: I kind of wish I did. I live in an
Speaker 1: old house from the ninet thirties and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of old houses around me, but it ain't a historic district.
Speaker 1: And the reason I know is because I did this
Speaker 1: podcast on them, and just having old houses around doesn't
Speaker 1: make it a historic district. If you want to find
Speaker 1: out what that really means, well then just open up
Speaker 1: your ears and continue to listen and you'll be done.
Speaker 1: So please to enjoy our Saturday Selector this week all
Speaker 1: about historic districts. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles W. Chuck Bryan, There's Jerry
Speaker 1: over there, and that makes this Stuff you Should Know.
Speaker 1: Say the clock tower, that's good? Like that it's good?
Speaker 1: Just popped into my head. Oh for real? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wasn't reading this article and doing this research thinking back
Speaker 1: to the future, back to the future. I'm surprised it
Speaker 1: just popped into my head. I actually hadn't thought about
Speaker 1: back to the future at all. But but that's a
Speaker 1: really that's very appropriate, Chuck. But that is not a
Speaker 1: historic district. That is just a landmark building. I think
Speaker 1: that could still it could still qualify for a registry
Speaker 1: on the National Register of Historic Places. It just wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a historic district, which is what we're talking about today.
Speaker 1: Maybe this should just be the end of the podcast,
Speaker 1: the end, Chuck. Have you ever gone into a neighborhood,
Speaker 1: just been walking around town, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you realize that you're in the most charming, adorable place
Speaker 1: you've ever been in your life. Sure, well, then you've
Speaker 1: probably been in a historic district. Yeah, this is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I feel like this. We haven't done one like this
Speaker 1: in a while. You like this when I was fully
Speaker 1: expecting you to say like this so much. I love
Speaker 1: historic places, I know, but sometimes Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 1: why I thought that, but I'm glad that you I'm
Speaker 1: glad that it panned out. I actually selected it because
Speaker 1: I knew you were gonna hate it, so, you know,
Speaker 1: eggs on my face. This is I don't know. It
Speaker 1: kind of harkened back to some of our episodes we
Speaker 1: used to do, like row houses and shotgun houses. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that stuff. Saw houses, Yeah, yeah, shotgun houses. We
Speaker 1: did do a full episode on shotgun houses. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: their architectural importance. I thought that was a pretty good episode, agreed.
Speaker 1: I think we released it as a select recently too,
Speaker 1: didn't we m I don't think I did. But that
Speaker 1: might have been one of your picks. I don't think
Speaker 1: I did. It was Jerry ghost producer. We need to
Speaker 1: let Jerry select him some from time to time. Jerry
Speaker 1: did time for that stuff. That's fine. She needs nothing
Speaker 1: else on her plate besides me, so that's true. And
Speaker 1: overseeing the largest podcast program in the world. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: pretty impressive. Years Jerry said, thank you. Yes she does.
Speaker 1: She's aid thank your holding me so super in her mouth. So, um,
Speaker 1: I think I've already kind of gotten the intro out
Speaker 1: of the way where I asked if you've been in
Speaker 1: a charming area and said you've probably been in a
Speaker 1: historic district. Well, I mean, there's a good chance that
Speaker 1: you have if you've been in the United States, because
Speaker 1: there are more than of them. Yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean there's all over the place. And you might
Speaker 1: say like, okay, well that's great. Who this is an
Speaker 1: area that has been designated to have some sort of
Speaker 1: historic significance. Um, can I please go to sleep now?
Speaker 1: It will say no, no, please don't go to sleep yet,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot more to it. And in one
Speaker 1: of the more surprising twists you're ever going to have
Speaker 1: in your entire life, it's actually controversial historic districts can
Speaker 1: be Oh yeah, yeah, did you not read that one article? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I was just being coy. Okay, my stomach just bottomed
Speaker 1: out in terror. So should we talk about Charleston, South Carolina? Yes,
Speaker 1: a place where I well I didn't go there. I
Speaker 1: went to the beach near there. Oh, the Isle of Palms, yeah,
Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago. Oh yeah, but we were
Speaker 1: within uh spitting distance of Charleston, South Carolina. Why would
Speaker 1: you spit on Charleston, I wouldn't. I love it. Bill
Speaker 1: Murray lives there, for God's sakes, Yeah he does. Apparently
Speaker 1: he's a man about town there and I think his
Speaker 1: family lives there too. Yeah, that's why he lives there.
Speaker 1: Oh gotcha. Yeah. So, uh, they formed the very first
Speaker 1: historic district in the United States. Yeah, they established the
Speaker 1: Board of Architectural Review And this quote here is pretty great. Uh.
Speaker 1: This is the official quote from that Architectural Review board.
Speaker 1: Can you please read it in the mid Atlantic accent?
Speaker 1: Mid Atlantic? Why that? Because that's the that's the one,
Speaker 1: the old timey one. Okay that you're probably going to use.
Speaker 1: I was going to do an old Southern thing. Oh
Speaker 1: that's okay, yeah, no, that's way more, way better. The
Speaker 1: preservation and protection of the old historic and architecturally worthy
Speaker 1: structures and quaint neighborhoods, which in pought distinct aspect of
Speaker 1: the city of Charleston. That is, that was beautiful. They
Speaker 1: actually have quaint neighborhoods in their charge. Yeah right, So,
Speaker 1: I mean, like, from what I've read too, Charleston like
Speaker 1: actually is legitimately interested in its architecture and preserving its architecture. Yeah, although,
Speaker 1: as we'll see later, there are some people that think
Speaker 1: Charleston didn't do it right. Oh is that right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's in the article at okay, so, or that they're
Speaker 1: overdoing it. That's how I took it. Yeah, sure, okay,
Speaker 1: cool cool. So but Charleston was the first one to
Speaker 1: basically say, this is historically significant architecture. This is a
Speaker 1: historically a significant area you and we want to make
Speaker 1: sure that it stays that way. So we're going to
Speaker 1: add a layer of protection, legal protection over this area
Speaker 1: that the rest of the city doesn't have. And within
Speaker 1: five years the word had spread to New Orleans and
Speaker 1: they said, that's a pretty good idea. Chief, We're going
Speaker 1: to do that for the French Quarter. Is my New
Speaker 1: Orleans accent? That uh yeah, and that you know, what
Speaker 1: they're basically saying is is that it can be either one.
Speaker 1: It can and it all depends on your local jurisdictions,
Speaker 1: which we'll get to. But historically or aesthetically, these buildings
Speaker 1: in this area, they're linked together, right, And so the
Speaker 1: Charleston thing basically provided the Charleston and then the New
Speaker 1: Orleans when basically provided the groundwork, which was this area
Speaker 1: is protected, and we're going to form a board who
Speaker 1: is charged with making sure that it stays this way
Speaker 1: as much as possible. We're going to vest some legal
Speaker 1: authority into them, and these people are you have to
Speaker 1: go through if you want to do anything significantly um uh,
Speaker 1: altering to the exterior of your place if you live
Speaker 1: in this area or have a business there, right, or
Speaker 1: maybe not even significantly depending on where you are. So
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, plotted along this idea. It
Speaker 1: was around for a couple of decades, and then this
Speaker 1: whole process of urban renewal that was kicked off after
Speaker 1: the highways started being built. Um in part because of
Speaker 1: the highways, because people were saying, wait, you're gonna you're
Speaker 1: gonna blow right through you know, the Lower East Side
Speaker 1: in Chinatown with this highway in in Manhattan. We don't
Speaker 1: want you to do that. This is worth protecting, so
Speaker 1: build your highway elsewhere. And then also as the highways
Speaker 1: were built and traffic started being rerouted away from other towns, um,
Speaker 1: these other towns that used to be thriving started to
Speaker 1: fall into disrepair. Some people are saying like, hey, let's
Speaker 1: knock down these old buildings and build new ones and
Speaker 1: maybe business will come back. Um It in initiated this
Speaker 1: idea that no, no, we've got some historic stuff here
Speaker 1: and we need to protect it. And it really started
Speaker 1: to kick off in Earnest in the in the fifties,
Speaker 1: and by nineteen fifties six, the federalites had gotten involved
Speaker 1: and through the National Park Service established the National Historic
Speaker 1: Preservation Act that said, you, MPs, you're in charge of
Speaker 1: designating what's his an historic site and what's not. That's right,
Speaker 1: and uh in nineteen sixty six they created the National
Speaker 1: Register of Historic Places run by the National Parks are
Speaker 1: or not run but I guess just sort of maintained. Sorry, yes,
Speaker 1: I said nineteen fifty six. I'm in nineteen sixty six. Okay,
Speaker 1: I got everything else right, Yeah, that's right. So, um,
Speaker 1: here's a deal. You can be listed on the National Register.
Speaker 1: And that's really like that doesn't I mean, it means
Speaker 1: something I don't want to say. It doesn't mean a
Speaker 1: whole lot. But if you really want to protect something,
Speaker 1: you have to go with your local historic district. You
Speaker 1: have to create and protect it locally. That's a very
Speaker 1: big deal. But we're gonna go over both national and state,
Speaker 1: which is sort of like national, and then local, which
Speaker 1: is pretty different. It actually is, but it's really it's
Speaker 1: impressive that the local level is the one that has
Speaker 1: the real teeth as far as historic districts are concerned.
Speaker 1: As it should be so, but most people want to
Speaker 1: start out with the national district at the very least,
Speaker 1: because there's a certain amount of cache to it to
Speaker 1: having your place designated as a National Historic um either structure, district,
Speaker 1: or area. But there's there's multiple things that can fall
Speaker 1: under or be um logged onto the Register of Historic Places.
Speaker 1: Apparently in other countries they have similar registers, but they'll
Speaker 1: include things like events, um people, just not necessarily things
Speaker 1: or objects. But in the United States there's a real
Speaker 1: emphasis on place and situation and buildings in particular. And
Speaker 1: so if you're on the National Register of Historic Places,
Speaker 1: you are two things. You're an object and you're inanimate,
Speaker 1: and you probably are in situated in a specific area.
Speaker 1: You're like where you are, what you are is kind
Speaker 1: of tied to the area you're around. That's the real
Speaker 1: focus of the United States National Register of Historic Places.
Speaker 1: That's right. So there are five overall categories. Buildings, it's
Speaker 1: pretty obvious. Structures also kind of obvious, but that could
Speaker 1: be it says in here that could even be an
Speaker 1: aircraft as a structure. Yeah, I saw that there's a
Speaker 1: grain elevator in the Fox, Illinois that's protected because it's
Speaker 1: an example of the transition between one story and two
Speaker 1: story grain elevators. Amazing, It is amazing, And I don't
Speaker 1: want to yuck anybody's this thing about this like to me,
Speaker 1: like if you can see, chuck, I'm bleeding a little
Speaker 1: bit out of the corner of my eye from being
Speaker 1: bored and even saying that since but I'm sure there
Speaker 1: are people out there appreciate the different architecture of grain elevators.
Speaker 1: And that's the point. It means that if it's on
Speaker 1: the National um Register of His Story Places, it is
Speaker 1: important to some group of people. And so don't you there, yum,
Speaker 1: even if you find it's boring, agreed, because they might
Speaker 1: find what you find interesting and boring. Number Three, it
Speaker 1: can be an object. Number four. It can be a
Speaker 1: site and this is a big one, uh in the
Speaker 1: United States because like Civil War battle fields, um, stuff
Speaker 1: like that Applach and trail. Yeah, the MLK Historic Site. Sure,
Speaker 1: it's like a bunch of well we'll tell you, we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that later. Or it can be a district,
Speaker 1: which is basically some kind of combination of those first four.
Speaker 1: Um or just let me group like you know, the
Speaker 1: street has has ten houses. Ten ten beautiful Victorian houses
Speaker 1: are all built by the same architect and so this is, well,
Speaker 1: we're going to consider this a district, right, So like
Speaker 1: maybe in each of those instances, of one of those
Speaker 1: houses was in a neighborhood, it might qualify for designation
Speaker 1: as a historic building. But if you put them together,
Speaker 1: because they're together, they form this district, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: the some of these parts form something larger and that
Speaker 1: connects them. And um, there's a couple of qualifications that
Speaker 1: they have to meet to to be part or listed
Speaker 1: on the National Register. Um. Almost without exception, they have
Speaker 1: to be fifty years old. I think the law is that, um,
Speaker 1: it has to be exceptionally important to be younger than
Speaker 1: fifty years old and still be designated on the Historic
Speaker 1: Places Register. That's right. Uh. The other thing it has
Speaker 1: to be is significant, which sounds kind of broad, but um,
Speaker 1: and I guess it kind of is. Because significance is
Speaker 1: in the eye of the beholder. But that's why we
Speaker 1: have boards and things like that to determine whether or
Speaker 1: not they think it's significant to behold things for us.
Speaker 1: And then finally it's got to be evaluated that's significant
Speaker 1: and historic context, which kind of speaks for itself, like
Speaker 1: it did any great history happen there? Um, well, you
Speaker 1: know it was this Bob Dylan's house in Minnesota when
Speaker 1: he was a child. Although I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: on the list. I just threw that out there. It
Speaker 1: could be. I mean, it could be that's that's a
Speaker 1: that's a home run. But say, like let's say you said, um,
Speaker 1: well this this building used to house soda shop, a
Speaker 1: soda shop that made pretty good chocolate malts, um, and
Speaker 1: so it's representative of that time. Well, if you were
Speaker 1: on the board looking at this application, you would look
Speaker 1: around and try to put it in context, like, yes,
Speaker 1: people liked chocolate malts at soda shops at one period
Speaker 1: in American history, But was this the place where chocolate
Speaker 1: malts were invented or is this the place where everyone
Speaker 1: widely agreed made the best chocolate malted. It's like no,
Speaker 1: Like it has a history, but not necessarily significant history
Speaker 1: in context of the larger era that it's a part of,
Speaker 1: so it would probably get passed over. Yeah, like the
Speaker 1: four sort of historic context that you you have, it's
Speaker 1: not shoeing necessarily, but you have a good chance if
Speaker 1: if something important historically happened there, like this is the
Speaker 1: place where so and so was shot and killed or
Speaker 1: born perhaps who on a more up note, okay, uh,
Speaker 1: did someone live here that was significant? George Washington slept here?
Speaker 1: Sure or associated with them? Didn't have to live there necessarily? Um?
Speaker 1: Is it related to a certain architectural period or method
Speaker 1: of construction? Like that's a that's a big one for
Speaker 1: the Park Service, sure, like this is the um, this
Speaker 1: is the last house to be used that used plaster
Speaker 1: and laugh for their walls. Or there's a there's a
Speaker 1: college in Florida called Florida Southern College that is like
Speaker 1: the entire campus was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. So
Speaker 1: that is clearly going to be accepted on the National Register.
Speaker 1: Or finally, was their information at this place that is
Speaker 1: historically important? Yeah? Or might there be because they can
Speaker 1: afford protection to say, like an archaeological site that's a
Speaker 1: known archaeological site that they haven't really dug yet, Like
Speaker 1: we'll find it right there, saying there's a pretty good
Speaker 1: potential that some information or history or historical significance will
Speaker 1: be yielded from investigation of the site. But we want
Speaker 1: to protect it now before developers come in. That's right.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing though, if you want to be a
Speaker 1: historic district, um, that doesn't like if you if you
Speaker 1: want to say like these three square blocks or historic district,
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that every single property in there is
Speaker 1: what's called a contributing property to that district. Yeah, they're
Speaker 1: non contributing properties are allowed. Sure, Like if you have
Speaker 1: those fifteen Victorian houses on a block and then there's
Speaker 1: the one, you know, the one modern mcmanchin, right, that
Speaker 1: that's non contributing. I think we can all agree. But
Speaker 1: it doesn't disqualify the rest of the area in as necessarily.
Speaker 1: It just it depends on um. From what I've seen,
Speaker 1: it's very much a subjective measure. How much that mcmanchin
Speaker 1: detracts from the field or the um authenticity of the
Speaker 1: rest of the site what they call um integrity. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really kind of interesting, I think, because all this
Speaker 1: stuff is subjective. But the integrity there is how that
Speaker 1: the physical characteristics of that property reflect, like on this day,
Speaker 1: reflect that significance historically. Right, So like if you have
Speaker 1: that row of Victorian homes, but every single one of
Speaker 1: them was altered in the sixties or the seventies or
Speaker 1: the eighties, and the people inside made some really weird
Speaker 1: decisions and so altered the interior the exterior of these homes.
Speaker 1: That yes, they were all part of this Victorian era,
Speaker 1: and they were once pretty good examples of it. They
Speaker 1: aren't any longer. Even though it qualifies for all these
Speaker 1: other things, it would not be consider ordered UM a
Speaker 1: site with integrity, and it might get passed over unless
Speaker 1: everyone agreed to restore the houses back to that Victorian era.
Speaker 1: That's the status letter to get I think is I'm
Speaker 1: sorry you've been denied because your property has no integrity
Speaker 1: pretty pretty much, you know, and you, sir, do not either.
Speaker 1: That's how they finish every letter like that. Should we
Speaker 1: take a break and talk about how you might create
Speaker 1: a historic district? There is one other thing before we do, Chuck,
Speaker 1: I think it's a fine idea. I'm not shooting down
Speaker 1: your idea, but I do want to point out that
Speaker 1: UM areas have to be unified, not necessarily physically, visually geographically,
Speaker 1: but somehow they have to be linked to be considered
Speaker 1: a district. That's all right, now, you wanna take a break, yes, okay,
Speaker 1: if you want to know, then you're in luck just
Speaker 1: to ex Alright, So if you're a person and you live,
Speaker 1: let's just take us for instance, Like let's say I
Speaker 1: wanted to get my house in my neighborhood and in
Speaker 1: Atlanta recognize as it or my block as a historic
Speaker 1: National Historic District. Okay uh. And the real reason I
Speaker 1: want to do this is because of the street near
Speaker 1: my house. They're going to expand and it's a real
Speaker 1: bummer because they're gonna have to tear down, um a
Speaker 1: few of the houses that are really what I think
Speaker 1: are significant, and they might take possession of that little
Speaker 1: strip of land that you've been exercising squatting on. More importantly,
Speaker 1: they will take my little strip of land, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: So what would you do? Like, what what are you
Speaker 1: gonna do? And um, as step one took to protect
Speaker 1: your home, well to place it on the National Register.
Speaker 1: I would start at the state, uh, the Historic Preservation Officer.
Speaker 1: And this is a person every state has one. You
Speaker 1: can go to the NPS website to find out who
Speaker 1: yours is and get in touch and they're basically gonna
Speaker 1: help you out with I mean, you're gonna you're gonna
Speaker 1: plead your case, of course, but they're gonna help you
Speaker 1: fill out this form um explaining why. I mean. They
Speaker 1: may say listen, don't even bother, But what they're supposed
Speaker 1: to do is help assess whether or not it might
Speaker 1: be eligible and help you fill out all your national
Speaker 1: forms to send in. Right, they might say like how
Speaker 1: old your house? And if you're like, oh, it's Bill
Speaker 1: in the nineties, it's still pretty nice, they'll be like,
Speaker 1: don't don't bother, that's right. But um, you're since you
Speaker 1: have never done this before, your dinghis at it, and
Speaker 1: they're there to help you figure this out and how
Speaker 1: to do it right. They're not the ones who are
Speaker 1: going to judge this. A board will, and typically a
Speaker 1: state board um for a state historic preservation board. Their
Speaker 1: review board is made up of people who know what
Speaker 1: they're talking about. Architects, his story us, archaeologists, anthropologists, people
Speaker 1: who have been trained in this stuff, who can say, yeah,
Speaker 1: this actually isn't that great. There's a much better example
Speaker 1: of it. You know, a couple of blocks over. As
Speaker 1: a matter of fact, why don't we go to the
Speaker 1: other place and make that a historic district? And then
Speaker 1: you're like, no, snobs, but um, the the officer that
Speaker 1: you are contacting, it's their job to help you get there,
Speaker 1: your application in in state your case, and then get
Speaker 1: it in front of the review board who will then
Speaker 1: take it from there and say this is a great idea,
Speaker 1: there's a terrible idea, or I don't care either way,
Speaker 1: and it's time for lunch. Approved. That's right. And this
Speaker 1: is again going for that National Register. And one reason
Speaker 1: you might want to do this is because here's the thing.
Speaker 1: It's it's sort of a badge of honor um, like
Speaker 1: we said before, and we'll we'll uh, we'll talk about
Speaker 1: again later about the local one. That's one you really want.
Speaker 1: But if you are on the National Register, it does
Speaker 1: provide you with some legal protections federally, so if that
Speaker 1: road is a is a federal highway project, then it
Speaker 1: could protect your house, or even better, even if it's
Speaker 1: a local or a state project, if it's getting any
Speaker 1: federal funding whatsoever, same thing applies sure where they have
Speaker 1: to say what's going to be the impact on any
Speaker 1: historic district of this project? And if the impact is
Speaker 1: deemed too great, the project won't go forward. So there
Speaker 1: is there are some protections for it but for the
Speaker 1: most part it's kind of symbolic and there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of cache, and you know, you can put it
Speaker 1: on your zealo page that your house is part of
Speaker 1: a national historic district, right, but you can't. They can't say,
Speaker 1: I mean you can. You can live in a historic
Speaker 1: a national historic home, and you can let it fall
Speaker 1: into disrepair and look like garbage. And they can't come
Speaker 1: in and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're you're on the
Speaker 1: National Register. You can't let your house fall into disrepair
Speaker 1: like this, right, Yeah, clean yourself up. You gotta stain
Speaker 1: on your shirt, get a shape, what's your problem. They
Speaker 1: don't say that, as those are individual property rights, and
Speaker 1: it's only up to local governments to infringe on individual
Speaker 1: property rights, not the state or federal government. So while
Speaker 1: the state or federal government will have laws restricting its
Speaker 1: own activities in regards to historic districts, like expanding a
Speaker 1: road or something like that. Yeah, if you get on
Speaker 1: the National Register of Historic Places, your whole neighborhood gets
Speaker 1: on there. Your neighbor can do whatever they want with
Speaker 1: their house. Still, So if that was your whole employ
Speaker 1: all along chuck to really keep your neighbor from doing
Speaker 1: something like, say, I don't know, putting a second story
Speaker 1: on their house. Um, you're going to find that you
Speaker 1: have been frustrated. That's right. Um, you can go to
Speaker 1: the state, But the state is basically like federal um
Speaker 1: as far as protections and stuff like that go. Where
Speaker 1: where the real teeth come in is with the local
Speaker 1: historic districts, and it is very different. They don't have
Speaker 1: to meet the same guidelines a lot of times very similar,
Speaker 1: but they don't have to have the same exact guidelines
Speaker 1: as the national historic districts do. So the first thing
Speaker 1: that you're gonna need, though, is there's got to be
Speaker 1: an ordinance, a local preservation ordinance, which is basically just, hey,
Speaker 1: here are the rules on how we do this around here. Here,
Speaker 1: here's how we're gonna identify these houses. And here's what
Speaker 1: it means if you have one right so, and this
Speaker 1: isn't like this is like square one stuff like this
Speaker 1: is what a city has to do before it ever
Speaker 1: creates its very first historic district. If your city has
Speaker 1: already done this, then you would just basically go through
Speaker 1: the same process that you would with the National Register
Speaker 1: in applying to get historic designation for your neighborhood in
Speaker 1: your city from your local municipality. But if they've never
Speaker 1: done it before, they've got to create new legislation for it,
Speaker 1: new laws protecting you know, historic areas. And then they
Speaker 1: also have to set up a preservation commission to basically
Speaker 1: the same thing that that Charleston, South Carolina did all
Speaker 1: the way back in nine team thirty one. That's right.
Speaker 1: So you're gonna go in front of the commission. Uh,
Speaker 1: They're gonna hold some public hearings where people can come
Speaker 1: and argue the case for or against. Yeah, because not
Speaker 1: everybody likes this idea. No, not everyone does, as we'll see, Um,
Speaker 1: you have to have in fact, it's it's kind of hard.
Speaker 1: You have to have, like the community has really got
Speaker 1: to be behind this in order for this to go through. Hey. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in most cases, from what I've seen, you need a
Speaker 1: majority of homeowners and business owners in the area to
Speaker 1: agree to this. And I think even if the opposition
Speaker 1: is particularly vocal and mad about it, it's they still
Speaker 1: might be able to derail local ordinance designation. That's right.
Speaker 1: But it's all going to be considered by the commission. Uh,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna make that recommendation to the officials. They're
Speaker 1: gonna say, you know you're gonna reject this. Are you're
Speaker 1: gonna say it's okay? Is it all great or not?
Speaker 1: And here's a deal. If you get named local historic district,
Speaker 1: this is when um, they can say, oh no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you live in a historic home in this district. You
Speaker 1: can't let it fall out of disrepair. You can't. There
Speaker 1: was this one case where was it in Maryland? I
Speaker 1: think where? I guess these front porch columns, Um, we're
Speaker 1: being replaced by a family and they skimped a little
Speaker 1: because what is expensive and used whether use fiberglass or
Speaker 1: something right, and they said, no, no, no no, no, you
Speaker 1: can't do that because you live in the historic district
Speaker 1: and you have to use uh these original materials to
Speaker 1: preserve this house. Yeah, you gotta use you would like
Speaker 1: you said. I don't know. Maybe they were like, we
Speaker 1: don't want to cut down a tree, or maybe they
Speaker 1: were just cheaping out. But um, I think they sued
Speaker 1: or yeah, I believe they sued in order to try
Speaker 1: to keep them. But that's a really typical. UM. Part
Speaker 1: of any local historic district ordinance is if you're going
Speaker 1: to make any kind of repairs, especially significant repairs, any
Speaker 1: alterations to the exterior, anything like that. You need to
Speaker 1: use historic, clear, accurate materials. Well, you have to submit
Speaker 1: it for approval to a local design review board too, right, Sorry,
Speaker 1: I got ahead of us. So the first thing you
Speaker 1: have to do is say, I want to replace the
Speaker 1: columns in the front of my house because they're falling apart.
Speaker 1: I want to replace them. Um, can I please do that?
Speaker 1: Please sir? Please let me and the local review board
Speaker 1: or commission will analyze this and they'll say, sure you can.
Speaker 1: But this is what they have to look like. This
Speaker 1: is the materials they have to um, they have to
Speaker 1: be made out of, and this is the color that
Speaker 1: they have to be painted. And you have to follow
Speaker 1: that or else you can be fine. They can place
Speaker 1: a lean on your property, and um, the penalty can
Speaker 1: be pretty stiff. Actually, yeah, And here's the thing, Like
Speaker 1: I can at least understand this and what we'll and
Speaker 1: we'll talk later about, you know, freedoms to do what
Speaker 1: you want with property that you own. But this I
Speaker 1: can stomach a little bit. And we've talked about homeowners
Speaker 1: associations before. Those are the ones that really get me
Speaker 1: to where it is not historically significant. It is an
Speaker 1: ex urb with seven hundred houses and a subdivision that
Speaker 1: require you to have the same mailbox. Right. So the
Speaker 1: in that sense, having a homeowners association covenant, UM and
Speaker 1: having a historic preservation district on a local level where
Speaker 1: they both have teeth that they can actually, you know,
Speaker 1: find you or tell you what to do to the
Speaker 1: exterior of your house or your yard. The point is
Speaker 1: the same in this sense, and that they're trying to
Speaker 1: keep things a certain way, right at least, I think
Speaker 1: what you're saying is, at least with the historic district,
Speaker 1: they're trying to preserve something that has been deemed historically important,
Speaker 1: whereas with the suburb, it's just they want to make
Speaker 1: sure everybody's lawn is cut or that just looks the same,
Speaker 1: or no one paints their house pink or whatever. But
Speaker 1: they have the same aim, which is like, this is
Speaker 1: what we're all saying is very nice and pleasant. I
Speaker 1: just watched Pleasantville last night for like the five hundred
Speaker 1: times good movie, but oh man, it's so good. But um,
Speaker 1: we've all agreed that this is pleasant and this is
Speaker 1: what we want our area to look like, and then
Speaker 1: this is how it's going to stay and you can't
Speaker 1: change it. And if you do, you have to petition,
Speaker 1: and this review board can tell you know you can't
Speaker 1: do that. Yeah, And of course I know that the
Speaker 1: answer to my problem with these ex orbists don't don't
Speaker 1: move there then like you know the stuff going in,
Speaker 1: then don't buy a house in that neighborhood. And I
Speaker 1: think most people who do buy out there are pretty
Speaker 1: aware of that, and I think some of them are
Speaker 1: looking for that because it tends to protect property values.
Speaker 1: Like you're never going to have a neighbor who just
Speaker 1: parks like a boat with a moth eaten cover over
Speaker 1: it in their front driveway for five years. Um, Like
Speaker 1: that's just not gonna happen out there. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, it's also eye bleedingly boring to live out
Speaker 1: there as well. Can I also just say that I
Speaker 1: love that You're Halloween October movie watching is pleasant? Bill?
Speaker 1: Do you know how I watched last night The Texas
Speaker 1: chains On that it was so good? The original? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had never seen it. Can you believe that? Uh? No,
Speaker 1: I had never seen it. That's really surprising. What do
Speaker 1: you think? Uh? Wow? It was it was disturbing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that hammer scene that he drags out for like twenty
Speaker 1: minutes of the hour and twenty minute long movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was tough. Um, And I realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm prepping for a movie crush h slasher movie special,
Speaker 1: But um, I didn't. I never watched a lot of
Speaker 1: that stuff growing up. But I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: because I was churchy, sure, but just rail answer right
Speaker 1: there that maybe so, because and I don't think it
Speaker 1: was like, oh I thought I would be in trouble.
Speaker 1: I think just like the people I was around didn't
Speaker 1: really get into that stuff. So you missed a really
Speaker 1: crucial window in horror movie watching, because yeah, I can
Speaker 1: see coming into it as an adult, you're like, like
Speaker 1: you said, this is highly disturbing stuff, and this is
Speaker 1: this isn't fun, like you like, it has to kind
Speaker 1: of dovetail with period of your life where you feel immortal, um,
Speaker 1: and so it kind of bounces off of you, the
Speaker 1: disturbing nous of it, And then as you get to
Speaker 1: be an adult you can kind of start to appreciate
Speaker 1: the truly disturbing aspects of it, but it's still tempered
Speaker 1: by that, you know, teens and twenty something doing that
Speaker 1: you remember as well, just coming into it like this,
Speaker 1: You know, late forties is not a good time to
Speaker 1: start watching Texas Jainsaw mask Man. I feel for you.
Speaker 1: I liked it. I mean I thought pretty much appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It is well it's a classic alright, Chuck. So we've
Speaker 1: kind of hinted a little bit at the idea that
Speaker 1: not everybody's on board within historic district and for you know,
Speaker 1: getting a real designation, like a local designation where there's
Speaker 1: actual restrictions on you, the person who owns the home
Speaker 1: um can or can't do things without permission from a
Speaker 1: board of people you might not even have ever met
Speaker 1: in your life. UM. You the for it to be
Speaker 1: really successful, you need the community hind that to to
Speaker 1: get that designation. And everybody going in with their eyes
Speaker 1: open saying, okay, you know this is We're willing to
Speaker 1: spend the extra money on wood. We're willing to um
Speaker 1: spend the extra money on you know, a hand handmade
Speaker 1: window if one breaks, because we're not allowed to replace
Speaker 1: the original single pane windows that make it twenty degrees
Speaker 1: in our house all winter long. Like we're we're we're
Speaker 1: going in with our eyes wide open like that. But
Speaker 1: even if most of the community does, there's probably still
Speaker 1: going to be somebody who says, I'm a libertarian, I
Speaker 1: don't believe in this kind of stuff, and I'm really
Speaker 1: not happy about this, And that person is basically going
Speaker 1: to have an historic district shoved down their throat. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: And you'll probably not you, But if you are that person,
Speaker 1: you will be the one that's vocal. If you know
Speaker 1: about the meeting and you're there and you want to
Speaker 1: make hay, but you can be overruled. Uh, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden you are subject to those whims Berterians
Speaker 1: hate that. Well, there's a bunch of sides to this
Speaker 1: coin here. Um. One is, there's a bunch of factors.
Speaker 1: One is, let's talk about the pros. How about that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean one of the pros is many times, uh,
Speaker 1: it increases property values because there's a standard that has
Speaker 1: to be upheld in your house and those around you
Speaker 1: won't be falling into disrepair. Right. And Plus, if you
Speaker 1: are like if you're if you're housing prices are stable
Speaker 1: and rising in relation to the rest of the town,
Speaker 1: your tax base, your your taxes also tend to rise
Speaker 1: to and so these areas very quickly start to become
Speaker 1: very wealthy areas of town. So it's a wait for
Speaker 1: for people to basically secure their investment in their property. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I guess we're talking about disadvantages mixed in here too,
Speaker 1: because there's some people that say, hey, in the US,
Speaker 1: that's can be code for keeping the wealth in the
Speaker 1: in the pocket of the few. But is who's going
Speaker 1: to be owning these houses? Are people that have a
Speaker 1: lot of money. Yeah. There's a guy named Kristen caps
Speaker 1: Um who wrote an article on City lab back in
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen that basically said the the um
Speaker 1: inequality and housing in the housing pricing crisis related at
Speaker 1: the feet of historic preservation districts, which is pretty preposterous
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, but he did make some
Speaker 1: real he sure, but the I think that his point was, like,
Speaker 1: just do away with historic preservation for districts, for neighborhoods,
Speaker 1: because most of these things are covered by zoning laws
Speaker 1: that say you can only have single family homes in here. Well,
Speaker 1: only certain people can afford really expensive single family homes
Speaker 1: in UM with really high taxes, and so it keeps
Speaker 1: out people who would otherwise love to enjoy this amazing
Speaker 1: neighborhood with this, you know, these mature oak trees and
Speaker 1: beautiful sidewalks and neighbors walking around being friendly and jos
Speaker 1: on every corner, or really good schools that they're these
Speaker 1: neighborhoods shouldn't just be for extremely wealthy people. But in
Speaker 1: saying that it's only single family housing allowed in this,
Speaker 1: no one can ever build a high rise with a
Speaker 1: bunch of apartments that those people who who might be
Speaker 1: able to afford to live in and enjoy the neighborhood.
Speaker 1: And so there's so on the one hand, they're like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't want high rises here, that it has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the historical architecture and it's a blight.
Speaker 1: And other people say, well, you're also just keeping poor
Speaker 1: people out too, So it's it's um it's definitely a
Speaker 1: double edged sword, because that's that's very much accurate. But
Speaker 1: it's certainly not the cause or even a major solution
Speaker 1: to the housing crisis either. Yeah, and there are Republicans
Speaker 1: in Michigan that are trying to do away with a
Speaker 1: lot of these UM. I don't know about districts, but
Speaker 1: maybe potential future designations, because their whole thing is like,
Speaker 1: you don't want the federal government coming in here and
Speaker 1: telling you what you can do and what you can't
Speaker 1: do with your house, although it wouldn't be the federal government,
Speaker 1: and that it would be local, be local, but these
Speaker 1: must be state reps uh and local reps. But they're saying,
Speaker 1: let's let's do away with some of this stuff, like
Speaker 1: Michigan has far too many of these, and your freedoms
Speaker 1: are being squashed right exactly, you want to paint your
Speaker 1: house pink, then you should be able to. And so
Speaker 1: some some preservation district commissions are a little more laid
Speaker 1: back than others. Apparently in Georgia, UM, if you it's
Speaker 1: up to you to pick what color you want to
Speaker 1: paint your house, if they repairs you're doing are minor,
Speaker 1: you don't have to have a certificate of appropriateness. And
Speaker 1: then in other places it is a staunches is kind
Speaker 1: of an understatement. UM. Old town Alexandria very famous, like
Speaker 1: you can't do anything to the outside of your your
Speaker 1: house in this old town district. But as a result,
Speaker 1: it's an extraordinary it's an extraordinarily charming place to be
Speaker 1: the like, tons of people who visit d C make
Speaker 1: the trip over to Old Town just to go shopping
Speaker 1: or to eat or to do whatever, just walk around. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's another benefit of having an the story preservation district.
Speaker 1: It attracts business or it attracts customers to businesses, and
Speaker 1: very frequently you'll find an influx of tourism dollars coming
Speaker 1: into this area too. Yeah, and you know we've talked
Speaker 1: about before the legendary um fabulous Fox Theater here in
Speaker 1: Atlanta are only remaining, like amazing, huge, old school Egyptian
Speaker 1: style theater was was going to be a bank parking
Speaker 1: lot in the nineteen seventies. Man Like, they were literally
Speaker 1: going to put a parking lot there. And I remember
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, they had to save the
Speaker 1: Fox Theater campaign and it took you know, uh, these
Speaker 1: celebrity benefit concerts to raise money. Ben Vereen did he come.
Speaker 1: I could see it. It was the right era that
Speaker 1: Frank Sinatra came. He was one of the big wigs.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, yeah, Frank came to Atlanta and perform to
Speaker 1: raise money. And I was like, no, you can't tear
Speaker 1: down the Fox, guys. That's my Frank. It was okay,
Speaker 1: I should have gone with Sammy. You should have done
Speaker 1: a Charleston accent for Frank. But uh, that's the other
Speaker 1: side of the coin, which is like if people don't
Speaker 1: I mean, there was a time in this country in
Speaker 1: the fifties, sixties, and seventies where that could, that can
Speaker 1: very easily happen, and that did happen in downtown Atlanta.
Speaker 1: If you look at old pictures of downtown Atlanta, it
Speaker 1: looked like New York, a smaller version of New York City.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know, now we've gotten some of that
Speaker 1: character back. But there was a period where they just
Speaker 1: tore down everything old in favor of putting up these bland,
Speaker 1: white buildings in the name of like the future, and
Speaker 1: they called the urban renewal. And thankfully, in the last
Speaker 1: ten twenty years, I'm not sure where the idea came from,
Speaker 1: people said, no, you can have the same effect. You
Speaker 1: can have businesses, you can have mixed use development by
Speaker 1: reusing and rehabilitating these these same buildings. You don't have
Speaker 1: to tear it down and build something new. It's usually
Speaker 1: cheaper to do that, but it's much better if we
Speaker 1: do it the other way. And kind of preserved the history,
Speaker 1: and that's definitely become the push lately. But yeah, there
Speaker 1: was definitely a period in the middle of the last
Speaker 1: century where a lot of stuff was torn down and
Speaker 1: as a result. I was on a website I can't
Speaker 1: remember the name of it um where they were listing
Speaker 1: the most boring cities in the world the world, chuck,
Speaker 1: and the first one was Atlanta. What the reason. One
Speaker 1: of the criteria they were using was history like history,
Speaker 1: like how much history is just kind of mixed into
Speaker 1: the the fabric of the city. And part of it
Speaker 1: is all the tearing down that they did in the
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, but also part of it was um
Speaker 1: late at the feet of General Sherman who burned the
Speaker 1: town to the ground and burned up a lot of
Speaker 1: the history as well on the March to the Sea.
Speaker 1: So Atlantis has kind of had a twofold um knock
Speaker 1: around where a lot of historical stuff was not preserved
Speaker 1: and was actually torn down. As a result, it lacks
Speaker 1: a certain amount of character because it compared to other
Speaker 1: cities that have more history, the old twofold knock around. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's a dumb I mean I'm not saying this
Speaker 1: just because this is my hometown. Atlanta is not the
Speaker 1: most boring city in the world, in the world. That
Speaker 1: was in the top ten the dumbest thing I've seen ever.
Speaker 1: Uh Well, here's the other thing too. I think there
Speaker 1: is a and this isn't necessarily about preserving history, but
Speaker 1: I think there's just been a general return to taste
Speaker 1: and craftsmanship across the board in the last like fifteen years.
Speaker 1: And some people may call it hipsterism or whatever, but
Speaker 1: you know, people there are artists and bakers now, and
Speaker 1: you know, handcrafted cocktails instead of fern bars, and when
Speaker 1: they are building new buildings, they're trying to make them
Speaker 1: blend in. And I just feel like there was a
Speaker 1: time where I think every everyone in America thought the
Speaker 1: future was just going to be sterile and white, and
Speaker 1: these sterile, white buildings were going up everywhere, and these
Speaker 1: and the baseball stadiums that were just round white objects.
Speaker 1: And then starting with Camden Yards in Baltimore, they started
Speaker 1: building these old style ballparks and that's all you see now.
Speaker 1: And I think that's just across the board. Is I
Speaker 1: think people are respecting craftsmanship in history a lot more
Speaker 1: than they did for a long long time, like decades.
Speaker 1: I agree, But it is true that that comes at
Speaker 1: a price because if you look at those neighborhoods where
Speaker 1: you know, they are being rehabilitated and preserved by the
Speaker 1: people who are moving in there. As they're doing it, um,
Speaker 1: they're raising the home values and which also raises the taxes,
Speaker 1: and so people who have traditionally historically lived in these
Speaker 1: neighborhoods are being pushed out of the neighborhood. So so
Speaker 1: that is one part. It's one facet that has yet
Speaker 1: to be cracked, like how do you how do you
Speaker 1: keep a neighborhood you know, um mick, as far as
Speaker 1: like income goes or use goes, Like how do you
Speaker 1: how do you really preserve that kind of thing. So
Speaker 1: so it's not just like, yes, we're preserving this neighborhood
Speaker 1: at the expense of the residents who used to live here,
Speaker 1: because it's you know, richer people who are coming in
Speaker 1: and rehabbing areas gentrifying basically what we're talking about that
Speaker 1: in our gentrification podcast. Okay, but but that's a that's
Speaker 1: a big thing. So it is a criticism of historic preservation,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly not a reason to do away with
Speaker 1: historic preservation. And one of the other challenges I've seen is, Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's say we're going to allow somebody to come
Speaker 1: in and build a high rise in this amazing historic neighborhood.
Speaker 1: Do you really think they're going to be building it
Speaker 1: for low or mixed income people to move into. No,
Speaker 1: They're gonna build it for the wealthiest people, who probably
Speaker 1: have even more money than the people who own the
Speaker 1: houses in this historic district. And it's not going to
Speaker 1: help this housing crisis at all. It's just going to
Speaker 1: exacerbate it and will have ruined a perfectly beautiful, uh
Speaker 1: historic district in the process. We should totally do one
Speaker 1: on gentrification. I agree. I agree. I love episodes like
Speaker 1: these where it's like, oh, what's the resolution? There is none?
Speaker 1: Yet you gotta stay tuned. Everybody. We know you're very
Speaker 1: anti resolution. So I've read before that people who read
Speaker 1: fiction uh tend to be able to deal with open
Speaker 1: ended like endings more than people who don't, which is
Speaker 1: weird because I don't read much fiction these days, but
Speaker 1: I can still I still hang with with no resolution,
Speaker 1: no closure, no closure, you got anything else, nothing else?
Speaker 1: You're just waiting for me to stop talking. It looks
Speaker 1: like maybe, Well, if you want to know more about
Speaker 1: historic districts, why don't you go try to get your
Speaker 1: place put on the national register. Why don't you as
Speaker 1: you do that, let us know how it goes. Maybe
Speaker 1: keep us posted um in the meantime, though, first, before
Speaker 1: I tell you how to get in touch with us
Speaker 1: to keep us posted, let's say it's time for a listener, ma'am.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this government shutdown follow up. Hey guys,
Speaker 1: I'm a member of the permanent government in d C.
Speaker 1: I thought you did a great job. It was great.
Speaker 1: The emphasize the cost of a shutdown is the key
Speaker 1: thing most people don't understand. These things aren't just a blip.
Speaker 1: I want to point that the effects of the last
Speaker 1: shutdown still aren't over. When we got back to work,
Speaker 1: we were told that it took the agency six months
Speaker 1: to recover from the previous shutdown that lasted sixteen days.
Speaker 1: And these things are exponential, not uh linear. With the
Speaker 1: thirty five days shutdown, we just don't know how long
Speaker 1: it's gonna take to catch up. We have settled into
Speaker 1: our normal and just expect to miss deadlines. The people
Speaker 1: we serve regularly understand and are working with us, but
Speaker 1: I don't think the general public gets it. You can't
Speaker 1: just push back all deadlines by thirty five days because
Speaker 1: new work is constantly coming in. There's no pause button.
Speaker 1: Just because the government is shut down. We're all working
Speaker 1: to catch up. It hasn't happened. It's not like we
Speaker 1: can blame the shutdown either. People don't understand how work
Speaker 1: submitted after the end of the shutdown can still be
Speaker 1: affected by it. But we can't just double our workload.
Speaker 1: There's only so many hours in a day. And that
Speaker 1: is from Nate. Thanks Nate. It was a nice little
Speaker 1: follow up. Yeah, thanks for bringing us down here, right.
Speaker 1: We had just kind of gone out on such a
Speaker 1: mediocre level, and it's down level. Well. If you want
Speaker 1: to get in touch of this, like Nate and bring
Speaker 1: us down or to keep us posted on how it's
Speaker 1: going to in your quest to get your house or
Speaker 1: your neighborhood on the National Register of Historic Places, you
Speaker 1: can go onto stuff you Should Know dot com and
Speaker 1: check out our social links there, or you can send
Speaker 1: us an email to Stuff Podcast at iHeart Radio dot com.
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio.
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