WEBVTT - Life or Death 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:08.160 Big breaking news out of Idaho involving the death penalty 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:09.640 and the man. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.119 Accused of murdering for University of Idaho students. 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:16.560 Prosecutors say they will pursue the death penalty for Brian Coberger. 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.920 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:36.320 and iHeartRadio episode nine, Life or Death. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:41.040 a television producer at KT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:46.000 and Connor Powell. With less than three weeks before the 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.479 legal deadline to decide whether or not to seek the 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.520 death penalty, prosecutors announced on June twenty sixth they would 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.720 recommend the maximum sentence for Brian Coberger. 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.800 Calling him a continuing threat to society. 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.920 Under Idaho law, prosecutors have sixty days to formally notify 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.680 a defendant after they enter their plea if the state 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:12.319 plans to pursue the death penalty. In a short to 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.959 the point three page court filing, Leida County Prosecutor Bill 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.280 Thompson wrote that based on the known information, there were 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.720 no mitigating circumstances preventing prosecutors from pursuing the death penalty. 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.840 He also cited a number of quote aggravating circumstances in 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:33.959 the brutal slayings as reasons his office was seeking the 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.640 death penalty for the former criminology student. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.360 The Leytaw County prosecutor says the murder of four University 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:47.440 of Idaho students was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel, manifesting 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:50.920 exceptional depravity. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.080 Thompson noted that Coberger acted with reckless indifference to human 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:58.280 life and that the November twenty twenty two murders of 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:03.720 Keighley Gonsalvez and Mogen Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin were 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.240 carried out during another crime like burglary. The decision was 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:09.600 months in the making, but also left the families of 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:14.960 the victims divided. Under a new Idaho law, Brian Coberger 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:18.200 could be executed by firing squad if he is convicted. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.880 In twenty twenty three, Idaho became the fifth state to 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.400 adopt execution by firing squad as an alternative to lethal injection. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.639 It was to be expected, giving what he is accused 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.000 of doing. The prosecution's decision to seek the death penalty 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.120 for Coburger was not a surprise, but it did raise 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.200 the stakes of the upcoming trial, and the move triggered 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.280 a series of many legal maneuvers by both the defense 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.840 and prosecution ahead of a pivotal motions hearing on the 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:51.880 next day. In the weeks leading up to Leeda County 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:55.960 Prosecutor Bill Thompson's decision to pursue the death penalty for 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.880 Brian Coburger, prosecutors turned over a mountain of evidence to 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.480 the twenty eight year old's defense team as part of 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.840 the legally required discovery period. Among the boxes of evidence 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.120 were thousands of pages of reports and other written material, 0:03:10.639 --> 0:03:16.160 ten thousand, two hundred photographs, nine thousand, two hundred tips 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.920 that were delivered to investigators, and fifty one terabytes of audio, 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:24.840 visual media, and digital materials. As the state pushed their 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.000 case forward against Brian Coberger, the twenty eight year old's 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.040 lawyer began to lay out their defense strategy ahead of 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.040 the key June twenty seventh hearing. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:38.040 They are not conceding anything here and will fight every 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:39.320 piece of evidence. 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.600 In recent days, Coburger added two new members to his 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.800 defense team, Attorney Stephen Mercer of Maryland and Bicka Barlow 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.360 of California. Both are experienced defense lawyers and experts in 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:55.880 criminal cases involving DNA evidence, particularly the use of the 0:03:55.920 --> 0:04:00.840 new DNA field of investigative genetic genealogy. Led by Coberger's 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:04.560 chief counsel, Anne Taylor and her deputy Jay Logston, the 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:08.840 new team immediately began to attack that prosecution's case. These 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:12.120 new court filings offered a preview of a brewing legal 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:16.000 battle over DNA evidence between the defense and the prosecution. 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.599 In new court documents, Coberger's attorney accusing the state of 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:21.120 hiding its entire case. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.520 Defense attorney Jay Logsen tore into the prosecution's case, saying 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.880 there was no evidence of connection between Brian Coberger and 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.320 the four victims. He argued that there is quote no 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:35.680 explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:41.440 victims in Coberger's apartment, office, home, or vehicle building. Upon 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.760 that argument, the defense also demanded investigators provide information about 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.800 three other male DNA samples that were discovered at the 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:52.920 murder scene. Here's Jeff and Stephanie. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.680 According to Coberger's defense, by December seventeenth, about one month 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.719 after the murders, lab technicians had isolated three other male 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.159 DNA samples, two of which came from inside the house 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.040 and a third pull from a black glove that was 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.719 found outside the home a week after the murders. But 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:11.400 get this, police investigators didn't originally find that glove. It 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.239 was found by a podcaster and a retired homicide detective 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.599 who was just sort of poking around. He saw the 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.120 glove nestled among some leaves and branches on the ground 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:21.120 behind a trash can near the home on King Road. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.120 He then told police about it, and they photographed the 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.040 glove before collecting it for lab tests. 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.039 How is that possible? Now, Again, no one really knows 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.040 when that glove first appeared or if it had any 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:33.159 connection to the murders. 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.040 To me, the big question is what type of glove 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:37.719 is it. It was in the thirties the night of 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.359 the murder, so people very likely would have been wearing 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.599 winter gloves. But if it's a latex glove, that tells 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.960 a different story. And while we don't know what type 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.120 of glove it was or if it was even connected 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.320 to the crimes, we do know that investigators found male 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:52.320 DNA inside of it. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:55.240 Now, what the defense wants to know is what type 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:58.120 of testing was conducted on that glove, as well as 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:01.080 the other two samples. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.839 Ran short tandem repeat or STR DNA on the three samples. 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.200 But the defense is wondering if there were any other 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:10.520 DNA tests that were run, because look, when the information 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:14.400 from the str DNA test was actually submitted to the 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.440 FBI database, no male DNA profiles were identified. 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.159 So stuff to break that down. What we know is 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:25.080 three men's DNA was connected to these samples, but we 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:26.880 don't know who they are and if they have any 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.040 connection to the crime. 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.279 And it doesn't appear investigators tried to do a genetic 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:34.920 genealogy DNA test to identify them in the same way 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:36.560 that they did for Brian Coburger. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:43.080 In addition to requesting information about the three unidentified male 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:47.479 DNA samples, the defense also challenged the prosecution's use of 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:52.440 investigative genetic genealogy to initially identify Brian Coburger from the 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:57.240 DNA on the knife sheath. Coburger's lawyer suggested the prosecution 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:02.240 is purposely withholding details of the genetic genealogy research, saying 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:06.080 in a court filing, a massive investigation came to focus 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:09.560 on Coburger and Coburger alone. The state appears to be 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:13.160 trying to hide its original domino, such as he cannot 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:17.120 discover why. It is not uncommon for defense lawyers to 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:21.600 challenge the use of new and emerging technology like investigative 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.080 genetic genealogy, and Coberger's defense team has demanded access to 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:29.880 all of the FBI genetic genealogy data used to tie 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:36.920 Coburger to the crime against Stephanie and Jeff and Now. 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:41.120 Remember when Idaho investigators first found the DNA on the 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.840 knife sheath, they ran it through the Combined DNA Index 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:45.920 System database. 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.200 However, this person's DNA was not actually in the CODIS 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:52.720 database and investigators were unable to identify the individual, but 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.040 they didn't give up. The FBI jumped in to help 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.960 and use a rare, controversial DNA technique called investigative genetic 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.240 genealogy we talked about Traditionally, it's really only used in 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.240 cold cases. Most famously, it was used to capture the 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.600 Golden State killer Joseph DiAngelo in twenty eighteen. 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:13.000 It's actually rarely used in active investigations because some states 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:18.080 have laws discouraging it, and many public genealogy companies, for example, 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:22.520 like ancestry dot com, they prohibit law enforcement from using 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:26.680 their databases for investigations, but in this case, the FBI 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.400 took the DNA sequence data from that knife sheath sample 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.560 to a private testing facility in Texas called authorm, who 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:39.480 then utilized public genealogy websites to identify Coburger's family tree. 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.960 However, despite the defense's request, the prosecution is saying that 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.720 Coburger and his defense team have no right to the 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:48.600 FBI data and the paperwork from this process. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.040 Is who become a DNA case. That's what it's going 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.800 to be all about. The spushy eyebrow identifications going nowhere. 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.040 But it's a battle of experts. So usually the government 0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.000 has a lot of money, much more than a public 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:02.960 defender's office. So one of the problems for the defense 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.400 is going to be to get enough money to hire 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.000 the appropriate experts to deal with this issue of DNA, 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.480 because that's really what it's going to come down to. 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:16.479 And I also believe that there are some serious problems 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:20.000 in terms of the way this thing was handled, in 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.240 terms of sending it out. I mean, I was shocked, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:24.440 truthfully to see that. 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.240 Stephen Greenberg is a legal expert and former federal US attorney. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:35.680 He spoke with Stephanie and Jeff Colberger's defense team believes 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.880 the FBI's handling of the investigative genetic genealogy data is 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.520 crucial evidence and could be exculpatory. 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.439 Exculpatory evidence means exactly what it sounds like. It's exculpatory 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.720 to the defendant. The Supreme Court a number of years 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.520 ago decided a case called the United States versus Brady 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:55.760 A long time ago. So this besides lawyers call it 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.880 Brady material, And what it means is prosecution that has 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.640 and its possession anything that in any way is helpful 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.280 of defense. It must be turned over, and if they 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.440 don't turn it over, it could be the end of 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.400 the case for them. Many times there's been a guilty 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:14.760 verdict and then an appeal it turned out that there 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.920 was Brady information or exculpatory information that wasn't turned over 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.320 and the guilty verdict was vacated. 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.240 Is there a time when that window closes or is 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.840 it every moment up until the verdict is read. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.760 In terms of when they have to turn it over, Yeah, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:34.800 never ceases. Even if during the trial, let's say something 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.000 came up that all of a sudden landed in the 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:39.400 lap of the prosecution and it was helpful of defense. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.800 It has to turn it over. It's a constant obligation 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:43.280 that the prosecution has. 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:48.040 Using genetic genealogy to identify a suspect is a painstaking 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:51.800 process and requires skilled researchers and analysts to put the 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.880 complicated puzzle together. During the process, it can also identify 0:10:55.920 --> 0:11:00.720 a huge number of people connected to a potential suspect. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.360 Stephanie and Jeff. 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.480 How exactly does DNA work. Each person's DNA comes from 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.520 roughly fifty percent of their parents and twenty five percent 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.640 of their grandparents, and with each generation you go back, 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.080 the genetic similarities are reduced a quarter, meaning you share 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:20.400 about twelve point five percent of your DNA with your 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.760 first cousins and three point one two five percent with 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.440 your second cousins, and actually less than one percent with 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:30.160 your third cousins. In most public genealogy databases, it's pretty 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:32.720 easy to find third or second cousin matches because the 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:35.560 bar is so low. That's why you see headlines where 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.240 celebrities say they're related to famous dead presidents. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:40.480 But in this case, to narrow it down to a 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:45.840 specific person, genetic genealogists at Authorm that's the testing company 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.400 we were talking about, and the FBI had to do 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.800 a lot of digging through birth certificates and other genealogy 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.160 information to build the tree. And this is the important 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:57.640 part for the defense because they want to know the 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.800 process from start to finish. 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.120 Yeah, Steph. What they're saying is that if all this 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:05.240 painstaking work was done, there should be a long paper 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.320 trail of how this research was executed, and you would 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:14.120 think AUTHRAM or the FBI would have logged it somewhere, But. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.880 The prosecution has so far refused to provide the data 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.800 to Coburger's defense team, with the prosecution insisting they don't 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:27.120 have it. The prosecution also says they won't use this 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.199 information at Coburger's trial because they want to protect the 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.040 names and personal information of hundreds of innocent relatives on 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.600 Coburger's family tree and the names of the publicly available 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:42.040 genetic genealogy services used. The question is does the FBI 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.560 and AUTHROM have the records the defense wants, were any 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:50.240 of the records kept or has all of it been destroyed? Regardless, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.960 this is a potential issue for law enforcement and the 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:57.120 prosecution's case because of the Supreme Court mandated obligation to 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:01.000 provide all Brady evidence to a defendant, especially a defendant 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:05.559 and a death penalty case. Here again, former federal prosecutor 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:06.720 Stephen Greenberg. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.120 The only thing that popped out to me so far is, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.880 for some reason, when the Bureau went through all the 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.440 different phases it went through in trying to match the 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.760 DNA with this defendant, and they failed, and then they 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.360 tried to build a tree and they sent it all over. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.080 They didn't keep records. There's no way to attack the 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:28.880 indictment that I have seen yet other than this issue. 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.800 We're talking about about exculpatory or brainy material or very 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.640 simply put information that's helpful of the defense that the 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.000 prosecutor has. Why they didn't download all of these things 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.200 that bureau did makes no sense. If it's helpful of 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.240 the defense, it has to be turned over. It will 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:48.640 be a pre trial hearing on this issue of chain 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.640 of custody and the use of DNA, and that will 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:55.600 you know, that will be determined because if that hearing 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:58.000 goes the way I think it might. I don't know 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.839 who the judge is, I don't know what his or 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.600 her particular ratings are. But if the prosecution gets whacked 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.720 on this issue, then there'll be either be a play 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.959 to a much lesser charge, be a dismissal. But that 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:14.880 issue will be decided long before try. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.120 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:31.040 a moment. The prosecution is likely to counter the defense's 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.840 demand for the AUTH room and FBI's research at the 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.160 June twenty seventh hearing by insisting the only relevant DNA 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.440 information for a trial is the buckle swab taken from 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.480 Coburger's mouth when he was arrested at his parents' home 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.280 and the paternal DNA sample taken from the Coburger's trash. 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:52.320 Both of these DNA tests show an indisputable statistical match 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.520 between Brian Coburger and the DNA on the knife. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:03.640 Sheath, the likelihood that this is Brian Coberger's DNA, and 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.760 it is five point three seven octillion times more likely 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.120 than not that this is a match. 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.400 Jeff and Stephanie, we know the DNA profile found on 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200 the knife sheath is at least five point three seven 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.480 octillion times more likely to be Brian Coburger's than someone else's. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.240 And that's a very big number. 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.600 Correct. It's kind of impossibly big to wrap your head around. 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:31.320 We're going to do our best to kind of explain 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.280 it in terms that we felt was helpful. Five point 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.320 three seven octilian is five point three seven followed by 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.200 twenty seven zeros. And to put this number into more perspective, 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:44.040 there are currently about eight billion people living on planet 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:47.960 Earth right now, or eight followed by nine zeros. It's 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.760 estimated that about one hundred and nine billion people have 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.200 ever lived on planet Earth. And that's one hundred and 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:57.160 nine again followed by nine zeros. A reminder, five point 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.280 three seven octillions is five point three seven fall by 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.120 twenty seven zeros. 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.840 So that's a tremendous number, and it seems impossible that 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.160 it wouldn't be Coburger. Even the defense doesn't seem to 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.120 be arguing that the DNA found on the sheath was Coburgers, 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.640 at least they're not doing that yet. But what they 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:20.240 are challenging is how investigators utilize DNA to conclude that 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.360 it was Coburger's DNA on the nine sheath. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.600 So in this case, the only fact so far that 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:30.960 we know of that the prosecution has to link this 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.880 particular defendant this awful crime is DNA evidence, that's it, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:40.080 and from what I've seen so far, that's not that solid. 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.000 So you know, they'll show pictures of the gruesome slaying 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.200 of these poor college kids. Defense will try to keep 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:50.280 it out because they'll say it's too damaging, and it's 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.160 and the judge will say, no, it's okay because it's relevant. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.120 That will all happen, but when push comes to CHEF, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:16:59.680 so far, we're talking about a case that hinges on 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.439 d and we've all seen what preceded the taking of 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.000 the final swab and the match, and I just think 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:08.639 it's too early. 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:10.960 You mentioned like the DNA is the big thing, because 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.240 we don't have any motive. I mean, there's no connection 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.680 that we know. The defense is arguing there is no connection. 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.040 That's the whole point. So does that matter. 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:22.360 The prosecution does not have to prove any motive at all. 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:24.880 They have a motive, it will be helpful. The lack 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:27.679 of a motive will be helpful of the defense because 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.920 they will argue that there was no reason for this 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.880 particular individual. He didn't know them. There's no motive, there 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:37.040 was no fight, there was no money issue, there was 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.199 no girlfriend, no boyfriend. Whatever it is, there's a doctrine 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:44.439 called men's rea in the law, and men's rea is 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.800 very important here because they had The prosecution has to 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.880 prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only did this 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:54.679 guy take it and slash them and stab them and 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.600 all this stuff, but he had an intent to do it, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.719 He had a specific intent, specific content or what they 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.000 say in Latin is men's rea, and then he's guilty 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.720 of murder one. But they have to prove intent. They 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:09.960 do not have to prove motive, and then the as 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.320 I said, the defense will argue, well, you know, there 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.239 was no reason for him to do it, Then the 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:15.359 motive goes on that side. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.600 One potential defense that Coberger's attorneys have yet to try 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.640 to raise is a not guilty by reason of insanity defense. 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:27.680 In many states, a defendant can claim insanity when charged 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.919 with felony crimes if they show a lack of mental capacity, 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.840 but Coberger's team can't make this argument. Idaho is one 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:38.600 of only four states, along with Kansas, Montana, and Utah, 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:42.240 that does not permit insanity as a defense. The Idaho 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.159 state legislature removed it from the state's criminal code in 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.919 nineteen eighty two, and passed a law saying that mental 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:50.720 conditions shall not be a defense to any charge of 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.159 criminal conduct. Stephen Greenberg says even if Idaho did provide 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.040 a legal path to raise insanity as a defense, it 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:01.120 likely wouldn't work. For Brian Coberger, this. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.480 Guy was getting a PhD in criminology. He went back 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.720 to school after all this happened, right he went to class. 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.359 So in order to succeed with an insanity defense, you 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:14.400 basically have to show that the guy couldn't have had 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.720 the men's rey I mentioned earlier, or the intent because 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:22.199 he was incapable of discerning right from wrong. Okay, in 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:25.800 some jurisdictions they call it an irresistible impulse. But the 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.760 longest short of this, in Layman's terms is if charged 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.720 individual was so incapable of discerning right from wrong and 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.880 didn't realize in any way what he was doing because 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:41.919 of that particular status of his mental capability, then you 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.480 don't have murder one because you don't have intent. Okay, 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.600 so all this kind of but I don't unless there's 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.760 something I've missed, I don't see this based on the 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.560 behavior of this particular defendant as an insanity defense. 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.159 The mental illness may be used Idaho as a factor 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.840 in sentencing. Even if the jury finds Coburger guilty and 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.800 sentenced him to death, his lawyers can challenge a death 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:12.200 penalty sentence by presenting mitigating evidence as to why Coburger 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.359 should be spared execution, Meaning, if Coburger is convicted of 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:21.640 murdering Killy Gonsalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.359 then he could be spared the death penalty if he 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:27.640 has proven to have a mental illness. Coburger's own words 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.240 as a teenager about suicide, depression, and his rare eye 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:39.280 condition visual snow may come into play in the future. However, 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.040 Leida County Prosecutor Bill Thompson said in the court filing 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:46.080 announcing his decision to seek the death penalty that the 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.480 state had not seen any evidence of mitigating factors such 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:54.000 as mental illness in Coburger or his family. Still, Coburger's 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:57.600 lawyers could produce evidence of past mental health issues during 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:01.240 the penalty phase if Coburger is convicted of the brutal slayings. 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:03.840 If you're not going to pursue the death penalty on 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.600 a quadruple murder, What type of case are you going 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:07.720 to pursue the death penalty on? 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.840 Before Laida County Prosecutor Bill Thompson announced his decision to 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:18.000 pursue the death penalty for Brian Coberger, he met with 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:24.080 the families of the four victims. While not every member 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:27.240 of the victim's immediate family have spoken publicly, there is 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.119 a divide over Thompson's decision to pursue the death penalty. 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.520 Xena Kernodle's mother, Kara, has said she doesn't support the 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:36.639 capital punishment for Brian Cobroger. 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:40.680 I'm not interested in a death penalty. That's not that's 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:41.480 not who I am. 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:43.679 I don't believe in that, but I do think that 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:45.680 he should he should spend the rest of his days 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:46.520 in prison. 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.080 In contrast, Xena Kernodle's father Jeff, said he supports the 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.320 death penalty for Coburger so he. 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.879 Can never replace the loved ones that are lost, but 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.240 having some sort of justice case that's what the Gonzava's 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:01.840 family wants. 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.439 While Madison Mogan and Kihi Gonsalvez's parents also support the 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:12.000 decision to pursue the death penalty for Brian Coberger. Steve 0:22:12.080 --> 0:22:15.359 Gonsalvez has been particularly vocal about his support for the 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.000 death penalty, saying it is one of the reasons he 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:19.320 moved to the state of Idaho. 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.439 If you come after Mike Child, I'm going to do 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.600 everything in my power to make sure that you know 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:26.439 we come after you. 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:32.200 Ethan Chapin's parents have not waited on the decision, even 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:36.320 when asked. Stacy Chapin, Ethan's mother, has said she will 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.760 not attend the trial and her focus is on her 0:22:38.800 --> 0:22:41.159 family and keeping Ethan's memory alive. 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:45.639 It doesn't change the outcome, even looking at ahead at 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.800 the trial coming up in October. Now, it does not 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.480 change the outcome of our family. And it's energy that 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:55.320 we need to put into healing our kids and getting 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:58.560 back to a new family dynamic and work in on that. 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:01.560 And so we let the prosecutors do their job and 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:04.320 we do our job in our family. 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:18.640 Let's stop here for another break. The split over whether 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:20.919 or not to pursue the death penalty is not the 0:23:20.960 --> 0:23:25.479 only issue dividing the parents of Kaylee, Madison, Xana, and Ethan. 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.320 Meanwhile, work crews started preparing the house where the murders 0:23:29.359 --> 0:23:30.920 happened for demolition. 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.880 In February, after Coburger was arrested, the University of Idaho 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:38.000