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Speaker 1: Hello Sunshine.

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Speaker 2: Hey fam we are one week into the new year,

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Speaker 2: Happy twenty twenty five, and if you're already feeling overwhelmed

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Speaker 2: by those New Year's resolutions, then this is the show

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Speaker 2: for you. Today we're joined by author Isolette Fishback. She's

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Speaker 2: a professor of behavioral science at the University of Chicago,

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Speaker 2: and she wrote the book Get It Done, Surprising Lessons

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Speaker 2: from the Science of Motivation. So today she's going to

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Speaker 2: be breaking down that science for us, plus explaining what

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Speaker 2: the middle problem is and why it blocks momentum. And

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Speaker 2: she's sharing why the best kept secret to motivation might

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Speaker 2: just be a whole lot of joy.

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Speaker 3: It's Friday, January third, twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm saying that.

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Speaker 2: I'm Danielle Robe, I'm Simone Boys and this is the

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Speaker 2: bright Side from Hello Sunshine, a daily show where we

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Speaker 2: gather together to share women's stories, laugh, learn and brighten

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Speaker 2: your day.

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Speaker 1: See money, Happy New Year.

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Speaker 2: We made it. We made it to twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe I live in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: It sounds futuristic, doesn't it?

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Speaker 1: Like what year were you born?

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Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty eight?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I was born in nineteen ninety one, and I

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Speaker 3: remember my cousin was born in like twenty thirteen, and

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Speaker 3: I thought, whoa, Yeah, kids are being born.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five. That's the future.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It happens every now and then while I'll be

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Speaker 2: out at a party or something and I'll meet someone

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Speaker 2: who was born in like the year two thousand something,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, whoa, I have to go home now

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Speaker 2: that I feel so old.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's a party you shouldn't be at.

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Speaker 2: It's a sign from the universe that I need to

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Speaker 2: go home and be with my kids.

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Speaker 1: It's true.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited. I feel like we're living in the future.

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Speaker 1: We really are.

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Speaker 3: So to all of our besties out there, we hope

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Speaker 3: that your holidays brought you some magic, whatever that is

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's rest that you've been needing.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's that dream trip you've been talking about for years.

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Speaker 3: Maybe it's just soaking up time and laughter with the

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Speaker 3: people you love most. Whatever it was, we're so glad

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Speaker 3: you're here, and we're really ready to start this new

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Speaker 3: trip together with you.

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Speaker 2: So let's make it a beautiful year. I love the

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Speaker 2: sound of that. Danielle Well, now that we're stepping into

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Speaker 2: the new year. I know there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: folks out there making resolutions, looking for that fresh start. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it feels like the perfect day to talk all

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Speaker 2: about motivation.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, here's the thing about the new year.

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Speaker 3: It feels like a fresh start. But then all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, January third today comes along and it's overwhelming

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Speaker 3: and kind of daunting because there's all these things that

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Speaker 3: we're wanting to achieve and accomplish. And I think even

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Speaker 3: the word resolutions can feel daunting.

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Speaker 2: That's why I don't use it.

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Speaker 1: What do you use goals?

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Speaker 2: I like to set a word for the year, and

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Speaker 2: you do that too, Yeah, and so everything is filtered.

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Speaker 2: You call it an intention, called a word, but everything

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Speaker 2: is filtered through that word.

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Speaker 1: For me, Yes, I do the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I have this goal setting process and it's an amalgamation

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Speaker 3: of all of my favorite goal setting thinkers. So like

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Speaker 3: I take certain things from Mel certain things from Tony

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Speaker 3: Robbins where the they have the last name, all the

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Speaker 3: roll the Robins, I've taken things. Actually, there's a part

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Speaker 3: I took from Jen Atkin, the hairstylist. She always has

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Speaker 3: this question that she shares online that I love so

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Speaker 3: like there's it's an amalgamation of like six people's goal setting,

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Speaker 3: vision boarding, manifestation tool kit, whatever you want to call it,

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Speaker 3: and it's what has worked for me.

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Speaker 1: One of those things is a word.

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Speaker 3: But I put it together as a free download this

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Speaker 3: year for the very first time, so you can get

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Speaker 3: it on my website. Uh, it's just Danielle Robay dot

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Speaker 3: com and download it for free if you're feeling like

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Speaker 3: you're wanting to set yourself off right for the new year.

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Speaker 1: I love this.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait to try this worksheet. It's so great

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Speaker 2: to have an actionable resource.

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Speaker 3: I know, I'm just thinking, like, worksheet is such a

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Speaker 3: horrible word, Like it's we have to think.

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Speaker 2: Of the new one. No quiz is the term manifestation map.

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Speaker 2: Now now you're getting alienated. You Now I'm outside of

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Speaker 2: your demo toolkit too, klit. I'm here for a toolkit,

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Speaker 2: you know. I like to diy dy your life with

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Speaker 2: Danielle's toolkit dihy with Danielle. Well, all jokes aside. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to ask you something. I've noticed that I have

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Speaker 2: the best years whenever I start with a really joyful January. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Whenever I'm really intentional about being joyful and like gathering

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Speaker 2: with people who make me joyful from the start of

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Speaker 2: the year, I feel like it sets the tone.

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Speaker 1: That's so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, like, what have you found really sets the

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Speaker 2: tone for the rest of your year.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm a little bit spooked that you said joyful,

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Speaker 3: because joy is actually my word of the year. And

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Speaker 3: usually I have intense words, like last year it was

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Speaker 3: it started off as discipline and then I changed it

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Speaker 3: and it turned into worth, which are intense.

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Speaker 1: This year is joy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't I'm not superstitious, but I've had

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Speaker 3: New Years where I've like cried or I've been alone,

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Speaker 3: and whether that by choice or not, like it's it's

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Speaker 3: definitely not how I wanted.

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Speaker 1: To spend the new year.

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Speaker 3: And so now I'm trying, I try to be really

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Speaker 3: thoughtful about how I'm ringing in the new year, because

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Speaker 3: I do think it can set off how you're feeling.

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Speaker 3: And you know, it could ring in January one, and

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Speaker 3: if it wasn't great, you can still make January two awesome.

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Speaker 1: But I'm with you.

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Speaker 3: I think ringing it in with laughter or a little

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Speaker 3: adventure honestly, doing something that sort of plays into whatever

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Speaker 3: your word for the year is is kind of awesome.

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Speaker 3: Did you choose your word yet? The word that's really

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Speaker 3: on my mind this year is desire? Oh but not much.

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Speaker 2: Well no, Actually, my favorite smut book is coming out

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Speaker 2: this month, the next inflation of it. But that's not

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Speaker 2: why I'm saying desire. I'm saying desire because it's a

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Speaker 2: it's a sensation that we often ignore as women, and

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Speaker 2: I'm all about getting back in touch with it.

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Speaker 1: That is so awesome. We're gonna have to offline about

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Speaker 1: how you're going to get into your desires some out.

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Speaker 1: I love this for you.

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Speaker 2: How off do you want to off?

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Speaker 1: Girl?

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Speaker 2: Wait, what's your year?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 2: So your word of the year is joyful? So you

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Speaker 2: have to have a joyful January.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we got to have a joyful January.

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Speaker 3: For everybody out there who's thinks we're crazy, I'm telling you,

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Speaker 3: picking a.

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Speaker 1: Word is it.

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Speaker 3: Here's what I'll say. We all pick a word. We

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Speaker 3: have resolutions, goals, uh, whatever you want to call them.

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Speaker 3: But by the end of December, most of us are

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Speaker 3: burnt out, exhausted, tired. Those are the words. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: I heard Kat, who's the CEO of AG one, say

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Speaker 3: pick a feeling. How do you want to feel at

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Speaker 3: the end of the year, Because if you're not playing

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Speaker 3: into that throughout the year, it's just going to lead

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Speaker 3: to burnout and all the things we usually rely on.

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Speaker 3: So that word joy that I'm choosing, I want to

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Speaker 3: feel joyful. December twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can I change mine? Please? I want to change

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Speaker 2: my I still like the idea of centering desire for

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Speaker 2: me personally this year, but I'm going to be thinking

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Speaker 2: about what is the feeling version of that yes? What

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Speaker 2: is the yes feeling that rebel? You'll stop trying to

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Speaker 2: bring this into the gutter. This is an upstanding, wholesome

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Speaker 2: family show, Okay, But you know what's really interesting is

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Speaker 2: last year my word was open. Ooh, last year my

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Speaker 2: word was open. And I am telling you it was

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Speaker 2: like a prophecy because my whole entire heart life world

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Speaker 2: blew open, exploded open last year. Wow.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you were open to new opportunities, new people,

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Speaker 3: new experiences.

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Speaker 1: You really were open.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I chose the word open on such a deeply

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Speaker 2: personal level, having nothing to do with career at all. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just like me as a human being wanting to remain open.

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Speaker 2: And it's just really powerful that these words can become

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Speaker 2: reality for us.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: And I think one of the words that comes up

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Speaker 3: a lot around New Year's is motivation. So today we're

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Speaker 3: going to be talking to someone who's been studying the

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Speaker 3: science of motivation.

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Speaker 1: For you, how do we get to our goals?

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Speaker 2: Science?

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Speaker 1: Give me the science we gotta stay motivated.

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Speaker 3: So she's both a researcher and an author, and she

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Speaker 3: has the research back tools to help us set the

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Speaker 3: right goals and tee us up for that lasting success.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're talking about isle At Fishback. She is an

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Speaker 2: expert on motivation and decision making, y'all. Her groundbreaking research

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Speaker 2: earns her the Society of Experimental Social Psychology's Best Dissertation Award,

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Speaker 2: and she's currently a professor at the University of Chicago

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Speaker 2: where she studies all of this, including social psychology and

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Speaker 2: consumer behavior.

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Speaker 1: Her book Get It Done.

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Speaker 3: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation is an incredible

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Speaker 3: resource for anyone who considers themselves goal oriented.

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Speaker 1: I think we should bring her in. I let Fishback,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the bright Side.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much. For having me pleasure to be

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Speaker 4: here today.

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Speaker 3: We're so grateful that you're sharing your time with us.

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Speaker 3: Simone and I are both excited to talk about motivation.

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Speaker 3: For you, that is your area of research, the science

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Speaker 3: of motivation. So before we get into all of the

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Speaker 3: science terms, I'm wondering how this became your area of expertise.

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Speaker 5: Kind of by accident. How everything or mostly everything happens

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Speaker 5: in life. Right, So, I was a quadiate student in

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Speaker 5: the nineties at Television University, and I was curious about motivation.

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Speaker 5: The only problem was that I was studying social psychology

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Speaker 5: and it wasn't quite a popular topic back then. And

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Speaker 5: so I somehow converse my PhD advisor that we should

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Speaker 5: study self control. And I really wanted to understand self

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Speaker 5: control andvation because I was graduated soon trying to figure

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Speaker 5: out things, and I realized that I really need to

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Speaker 5: motivate myself somehow. Then you know, that was early two thousand,

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Speaker 5: so I can say now that I've been doing it

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Speaker 5: for many, many years and never found a reason to

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Speaker 5: move to the next thing.

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Speaker 4: It's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: I share your interest in motivation, and I'm so excited

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Speaker 2: to talk to you today because I think it's something

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Speaker 2: that you can really demystify for us. But you said

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Speaker 2: something that I had to follow up on, which is

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Speaker 2: that you started out studying self control, which led you

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Speaker 2: into motivation. What have you learned about the connection between

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Speaker 2: the two topics.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: So self control is the kind of internal conflict where

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Speaker 5: you know you should be doing something, but you are

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Speaker 5: very tempted to do something else. Motivation is so much

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Speaker 5: more than self control. It's setting a goal, it's getting

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Speaker 5: excited about your goals, is being intrinsically motivated. So there

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Speaker 5: is a lot more to motivation. You can think of

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Speaker 5: self control a bitaus as a dark side, is overcoming

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Speaker 5: this part of yourself that you don't want to go there.

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Speaker 3: So when I think about motivation, the word that comes

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Speaker 3: to my mind is discipline. But you've written extensively about

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Speaker 3: the idea that motivation is not about being strong, it's

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Speaker 3: about being wise. So what about that distinction is important

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Speaker 3: to understand how we become motivated.

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Speaker 5: So we as a field, we started understanding motivation originally

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Speaker 5: is something that some people had and some people did

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Speaker 5: not have. Kay And so the early research, going back

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Speaker 5: to the marshmallow test, really try to understand who does

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Speaker 5: it and who does not? Okay, who's the key that

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Speaker 5: conceits in front of a marshmallow and not id it?

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Speaker 5: Predicting that it will go up to be success? So

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Speaker 5: very much what you call discipline. Later on research evolved

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Speaker 5: into much more of a strength model. The metaphor was

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Speaker 5: a muscle, and some people presumably have this strong muscle

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Speaker 5: and they can stay on task. Others are weaker and

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Speaker 5: they will give up. As it turned out, there is

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Speaker 5: a limited evidence that some people just have better will

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Speaker 5: power than others. Where I believe we search is moving

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Speaker 5: is more toward that some people just have better strategies.

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Speaker 5: Many people learn through life how to get themselves from

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Speaker 5: one place to another, so we can learn how to

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Speaker 5: motivate ourselves. And as with anything else that involves learning,

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Speaker 5: we can do it more quickly if we pay attention.

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Speaker 3: Is it a one size fits all thing or do

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Speaker 3: different things motivate different people?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely?

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Speaker 5: Different things motivate different people on more than one level.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 5: One thing is that different people have different goals. What

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Speaker 5: you want to achieve in your life is different than

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Speaker 5: what anybody else wants to achieve in their life. It's

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Speaker 5: really is a personal journey. But there are many basic

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Speaker 5: strategies that you just open the menu, there will be

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Speaker 5: something for you.

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Speaker 2: So I want to get into some of the tools

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Speaker 2: that you've outlined in your work, and I want to

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Speaker 2: pinpoint something that you said about creating motivation. You write

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Speaker 2: that quote you should change your circumstances or change the

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Speaker 2: way you think about your circumstances. I've heard people use

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Speaker 2: this framework when talking about body image. But you can

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Speaker 2: change your body, or you can change the way you

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Speaker 2: view your body. That's obviously a very catchy refrain. But

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Speaker 2: what does the science say about the role of circumstances

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Speaker 2: in effective motivation.

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Speaker 5: We respond to our situation. We are social animals. We

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Speaker 5: live in groups. I respond to what is around me. Now,

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Speaker 5: you can sometimes change the situation. You want to change

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Speaker 5: your body, well, you can change the food that is

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Speaker 5: around you. You can make active lifestyle more of a possibility.

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Speaker 5: You can also change the way you frame these things.

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Speaker 5: So you want to be healthier and you also want

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Speaker 5: to be successful at work. Okay, you can think about

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Speaker 5: how these might help each other instead of how they

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Speaker 5: are conflicting. We recently found that mothers more than fathers,

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Speaker 5: tend to perceive a conflict between work and their family goals.

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Speaker 5: What's going on here? Well, we probably learned from society

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Speaker 5: that as mothers we need to spend time with our children.

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Speaker 5: So when we are at walk, this takes time away

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Speaker 5: for children. Hence we are failing them. Where is Dad's

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Speaker 5: learned from society that they need to financially support your children,

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Speaker 5: and when they are at work they are doing exactly that.

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Speaker 5: So good, no conflict. Now, conflict can feel bad. Conflict

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Speaker 5: can lead to poor mental health. And so we say, well,

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Speaker 5: why don't you change the way you think about these goals? Okay,

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Speaker 5: why don't you realize that being at walk actually supports

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Speaker 5: your family? Also as a mother, maybe you our role

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Speaker 5: model and just understanding that you have control on how

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Speaker 5: you frame your goals, your progress. The relationship between things

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Speaker 5: means that you can change your motivation.

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Speaker 3: What do you think the difference is between intention and motivation?

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Speaker 3: And I think a good example of this is I

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Speaker 3: have the best intentions to get up early and get

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Speaker 3: some exercise, and then my alarm goes off and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 3: maybe I should just sleep a bit more.

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Speaker 5: Intention is the first part. Okay, so you want something

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Speaker 5: which is great you had a plan, it's not enough.

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Speaker 5: It just starts.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 5: Now we can ask, well, you have the intention, but

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Speaker 5: are their barriers?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 5: For example, when did you go to sleep last night?

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Speaker 5: You don't have to answer that you need a full

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Speaker 5: night sleep?

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So the intention is not going to translate into action

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Speaker 5: if there was no advanced planning that should allow that.

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Speaker 5: The intention needs to fit with everything else that you

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Speaker 5: schedule for the day. We are constantly over scheduling and

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Speaker 5: then give up and say there is no way I

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Speaker 5: can fit into my day all these plans. So again,

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Speaker 5: the intention is just not enough.

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Speaker 4: Let's start there.

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Speaker 3: It has to be like a realistic expectation for yourself.

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Speaker 4: You're saying realistic, but a bit of simistic.

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Speaker 5: If you walk hard and no huge surprises, you will

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Speaker 5: be able to achieve it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm curious how this translates into this season because

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Speaker 3: everybody's buzzing about resolutions and setting fresh goals for the

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Speaker 3: year ahead around this time, and in your book you

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Speaker 3: talk about goals as powerful tools. How do we make

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Speaker 3: sure that we're aiming for goals that truly align with

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Speaker 3: who we are?

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Speaker 1: Yees?

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Speaker 5: So a new year is when people set the resolutions.

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Speaker 5: We now have thousands of people with whom we've followed

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Speaker 5: up over the course of a year to see who's

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Speaker 5: going to stick to the resolutions, what kind of resolutions

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Speaker 5: tend to walk. To answer your question about setting the

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Speaker 5: right resolution, this needs to be a resolution that is

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Speaker 5: intrinsically motivating. That is something that you are looking forward

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Speaker 5: to doing, and not something you wish you had already conflicted,

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Speaker 5: something you wish you had already done. If you are

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Speaker 5: participanting in our experiment, we are going to ask you

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Speaker 5: in January, what are your resolutions?

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Speaker 4: But as it turned out, was predicts.

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Speaker 5: Whether people will stick to these resolutions is only how

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Speaker 5: excited they feel when they do this, how much they

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Speaker 5: enjoy pursuing them, how much they want to be the

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Speaker 5: person who is doing it importance, how much you wish

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Speaker 5: you already had it done. Predicts absolutely nothing in our

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Speaker 5: way of very large data.

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Speaker 3: That's interesting. So if I give you an example. Last year,

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Speaker 3: my goal was to get into the best shape that

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Speaker 3: I've ever been in physically, and there were a lot

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Speaker 3: of times where I didn't want to show up to

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Speaker 3: the gym. But my word for the year was disciplined,

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Speaker 3: and so it was more important to me to keep

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Speaker 3: my word to myself than it was actually get to

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Speaker 3: the gym.

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Speaker 1: So I went great.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying, that's the part that you like, that's

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Speaker 3: the joy, that's.

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Speaker 5: The joy, And the way you framed it is that

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Speaker 5: you wanted to be the person who goes to the gym.

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Speaker 5: So it was not just by the end of the year.

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Speaker 5: I want to look back and say, oh, I am

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Speaker 5: in a great shape. You wanted to do the work.

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Speaker 5: You were eager to be doing this. Now, how much

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Speaker 5: did you like the gym? How much fun was it

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Speaker 5: to be there or was it horrible?

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Speaker 1: No, it was actually really fun.

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Speaker 5: So this is the enjoyment part, because you could have

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Speaker 5: done the same thing but set some kind of exercise

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Speaker 5: or routine that wouldn't fit with you, that would make

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Speaker 5: you ache and I don't know, be too hot, too cold,

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Speaker 5: too board, and that this kind of a solution would

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Speaker 5: be something that people would report stopping around February or much.

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Speaker 3: I love the idea that the reason we complete goals

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Speaker 3: is because they're joyful or fun.

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Speaker 1: I would have never thought of that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, this is because we usually set them thinking

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Speaker 5: that this is good in the long run. Not something

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Speaker 5: that will be immediately enjoyable. It's good in the long run.

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Speaker 5: As humans, we can really think ahead, right, We can

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Speaker 5: think like dozens of years ahead and plan for the

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Speaker 5: long run, but we still care a lot about the

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Speaker 5: immediate experience. And if something doesn't feel good, that's not

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Speaker 5: going to walk out.

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Speaker 2: So, just to recap Professor freshback, you're saying that of

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Speaker 2: the patients that you reviewed who said a new year's resolution,

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Speaker 2: the ones who kept them are the ones who are

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Speaker 2: able to maintain a level of excitement throughout the goal timeframe.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and we call this intrinsic motivation. Intrinsic motivation is

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Speaker 5: the motivation that comes from doing It is something that

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Speaker 5: you get because you want to engage in the action itself.

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Speaker 5: And we contrast this with ex treinsic motivation, which is

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Speaker 5: what you get from completing the goal. The extent to

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Speaker 5: which people find these intrinsic motivators in their long term goals.

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Speaker 4: They will be able to stick with them.

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Speaker 5: So to give you an example, we went a study

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Speaker 5: in which we invited high school students to bring intrinsic

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Speaker 5: motivation to doing math. Okay, we actually help them. Okay,

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Speaker 5: we bought color pencils, we put music in the classroom.

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Speaker 5: We even got some snacks.

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Speaker 4: Okay. The teachers did not like us very much.

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Speaker 5: Okay, but the students who are very engaged in doing math, okay,

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Speaker 5: we just made it into something that is more interesting.

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Speaker 1: That is fun.

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Speaker 5: Maybe it's not on the level of the most fun

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Speaker 5: thing in the world.

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Speaker 4: But it feels good. It feels good to do that.

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Speaker 5: And this is where you can get people to engage.

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Speaker 2: We've got to take a short break, but we'll be

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Speaker 2: right back with io lot fishback and we're back with

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Speaker 2: iolt fishback. Okay. So we've established that excitement, feeling, that

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Speaker 2: visceral sense of excitement is really essential for motivation. Is

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Speaker 2: there a way to manufacture excitement when it doesn't come organically?

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Speaker 2: Is there a shortcut to this?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they fake it till you make it.

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Speaker 1: Not quite, But.

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Speaker 5: Many times you need to recognize that excitement will not

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Speaker 5: happen immediately.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So I say that people are going to persist on

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Speaker 5: something that they don't change it. They motivate to do

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Speaker 5: that feels good, However, men, because will not feel good

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Speaker 5: when you start doing this. And so if I can

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Speaker 5: stay with that, gym exercise for a moment. If you

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Speaker 5: start a new routine, most likely your body is going

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Speaker 5: to respond with oh no, what are you doing to me?

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Speaker 5: And it will take the good five ten times before

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Speaker 5: it will feel good. This is not just a physiological thing.

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Speaker 5: We when studies with improved students, the classes were run

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Speaker 5: by the Second City, which is an improve club here

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Speaker 5: in the city of Chicago. When people start improved, and

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Speaker 5: I don't know if you ever try that, it feels

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Speaker 5: very awkward. Okay, when your guy tells you, you know,

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Speaker 5: take the stage and just act and everybody is looking

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Speaker 5: at you, I don't know about you.

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Speaker 4: I want to just disappear. It doesn't feel good.

447
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 5: And given that it will take time to feel good

448
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 5: and to become truly true motivating, you need to let

449
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 5: yourself feel uncomfortable before it starts feeling comfortable. And so

450
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 5: the intervention that we ran is we told people, you

451
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 5: know what you just started. Your goal right now is

452
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 5: to feel uncomfortable. Okay, it's kind of the opposite of

453
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 5: what I said before. I said, you will stick to

454
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 5: it if it feels good, if you're excited, But if

455
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 5: you're just starting heavy, your goal is feeling uncomfortable.

456
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: Until you get there.

457
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 3: I want to build on that journey of motivation. Maybe

458
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 3: the gym example is just a good one to go

459
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 3: off of because it's so tangible. We feel motivated at

460
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 3: the beginning. You see everybody at the gym in January,

461
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,879
Speaker 3: maybe a little bit in February. And then there's the struggle.

462
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 3: You talk about it as the middle problem.

463
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 5: Yet it's hard to maintain goals over time.

464
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 4: It's for many of us.

465
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 5: We start with a lot of enthusiasm. If the goal

466
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 5: has a clear end date, then often enthusiasm increases.

467
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 4: Kay, I know.

468
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,919
Speaker 5: I sometimes give you example of making the last purchase.

469
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 4: On a loyalty program.

470
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 5: You will make it, Okay, you will get this reward

471
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 5: whatever that is. Gay finishing that, the last chapter of

472
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 5: a book, you will finish it. You want to know

473
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 5: what happens. It's in the middle when we see motivation declining.

474
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 5: And this is because it's hard to feel like you

475
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 5: make pogess okay that your first week.

476
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 4: Wow, I already did my first week.

477
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 5: Okay last week, I'm just like one week from finishing

478
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 5: this program. In the middle, I went to the gym

479
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 5: and I didn't really feel like that move the needle

480
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 5: there is not much feeling of pogwess, and without pogus,

481
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 5: it is very hard to stay more with.

482
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: So let's talk about restrictive goals like cutting back on

483
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 2: alcohol dry January. That's a very popular trend. What are

484
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: the best ways to overcome temptation when the goal is

485
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: actually limiting something that we're used to doing.

486
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, so these are very difficult goals. It's going to

487
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 5: be a hard first because it's not intrinsic. Okay, it

488
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 5: is never its own end okay, and end by itself gay,

489
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 5: it's something that you take off your plate. Okay, you

490
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 5: don't do, and it's less exciting. And second, monitoring success

491
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 5: on these goals requires that you bring the forbidding thought

492
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 5: or the forbidding object back to your mind. Basically, how

493
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 5: do you know that you are not drinking alcohol?

494
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 4: Okay?

495
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 5: You ask yourself? Have I been drinking alcohol? And now

496
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 5: you think about it?

497
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 4: Okay?

498
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 5: With a romantic relationship, that's a classic okay, like how

499
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 5: do you know that you are no longer thinking about

500
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 5: your ex?

501
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 4: Ask yourself? Have I been thinking about my ex recently? Well?

502
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 4: Now you do okay. And so by that.

503
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 5: Process of monitoring these goals, you keep bringing to mind

504
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 5: what you are trying not to do. So we're talking

505
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 5: about avoidance goes there are very hard to pursue. They're

506
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 5: not very motivating. A few solutions try to replace it

507
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 5: with something okay, So it's not about not doing that thing,

508
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 5: it's about doing another thing okay. And if you can

509
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 5: do the replacement, you are going to be more excited.

510
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 4: You're going to feel better about that goal.

511
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 5: Another strategy is to think about these causes temporary because

512
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 5: they tend to feel urgent.

513
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 4: That is, if I tell you that you.

514
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 5: Should stop doing something, you usually believe that you should

515
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 5: stop doing it today. If I say that you should

516
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 5: stop drinking alcohol, you take it as how about right now?

517
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 5: So this is good. It seem elgent. And to the

518
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 5: extent that we can just think about thisy just like started.

519
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 5: They just like see where it takes you, okay. The

520
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 5: goal is not to do it for or not to

521
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 5: do it for the rest of your life. Is just

522
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 5: to be able not to do it for a little bit,

523
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 5: for some time and then get better control over whatever

524
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 5: it is.

525
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 3: What do you think about replacing it with something else?

526
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 5: Yes, that's the best avoidance goals with that food often

527
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 5: tend to fail for the reason that they bring to

528
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 5: mind the food that you're trying to avoid, and so

529
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 5: we often recommand replacement.

530
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 4: It's not about not.

531
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 5: Eating the cake. It's about eating the berries. It's not

532
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 5: about not drinking this, it's about drinking that.

533
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: It's time for another short break.

534
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: But we'll be right back with our conversation about motivation

535
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: with Islet Fishback, and we're back with Iolette Fishback. I

536
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: had a mentor who taught me something that actually has

537
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 3: worked for me. But I'm curious what you think and

538
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: if there's any research behind it. He says, he calls

539
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: it I do not So he says, I do not

540
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: eat sugar, I do not drink soda. I do not

541
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: hang up the phone on anybody. And he has a

542
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 3: list of things he does not do. I'm curious what

543
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: you think about it.

544
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 4: Is it exciting for this mentor?

545
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: I guess maybe to say I do not eat sugar

546
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: makes him feel in control or disciplined.

547
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly exactly.

548
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 4: So this is where I'm going, right So, like.

549
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 5: If if you feel in contrall, if you feel good

550
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 5: about all that these do not.

551
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 4: I'm sure the line between.

552
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 5: A long list of do not and feeling a little

553
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 5: bit ocd about it. And you know, just going through

554
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 5: all these goals without passion nor excitement is blurry to me.

555
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 5: So I want people to post your clothes that make

556
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 5: them feel good. One thing that we did discover in

557
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 5: our studies is that people have those strategies and they

558
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 5: often walk. So if someone tells me that something walks

559
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 5: for them, go for it.

560
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: That is so amazing.

561
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: Here's my question for you.

562
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: There are different things that work for different people. How

563
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: can you determine?

564
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: What is your advice for helping us all find that spark?

565
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 3: What should we be paying attention to in our lives

566
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 3: to find out what really motivates us?

567
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 5: I say there are four areas that you should explore.

568
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 5: Have you set the right goal?

569
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: They?

570
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 5: Are you monitoring progress correctly? Can you tell me where

571
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 5: you are on that particular goal? What about other goals?

572
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 5: How this thing fits with everything else? And number four,

573
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 5: do you have social support? Other people around you that

574
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 5: are with you, that are helping you, that are willing

575
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 5: to support you when you're unhappy with your progress? Ask that, say,

576
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 5: you look around you, what are the other people at

577
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 5: the gym do?

578
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 4: Here?

579
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 5: What my family thinks about me going to the gym

580
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: and what everybody else is doing. In particular, for these

581
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 5: individual goals where it seems like we can do it

582
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 5: by ourselves, we realize that we don't do anything by ourselves.

583
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: If others are.

584
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 5: Not around us, they are in our head, and it's

585
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 5: important that they.

586
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: Are supportive that they care.

587
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 5: I don't think that they actually monitor what you did,

588
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 5: but you need to believe that it's important for them

589
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 5: that you do well. If your mom doesn't believe that

590
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 5: you can do it, it makes it much harder.

591
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: This conversation has been so eye opening. I've always loved

592
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: the topic of motivation, and if our besties want more,

593
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: they can read it in your book, which is called

594
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 2: Get It Done. Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.

595
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: We would be remiss if we didn't ask you, what's

596
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 2: motivating you this year in twenty twenty five. Is there

597
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 2: a word, or an intention or a prayer that you've

598
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: set to kickstart your own personal motivation?

599
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 4: So is many many things that I would like.

600
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 5: To do in twenty twenty five, but this morning I

601
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 5: was thinking, the one thing that I really want to

602
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 5: figure out is how to think about strategies to create

603
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 5: greater How many between goals? How do we get people

604
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 5: to understand that the various goals that you have in

605
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 5: your life complete you and compliment each other. They don't

606
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 5: create a conflict necessarily, they create har money. Hopefully in

607
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 5: a year I will be able to say something more

608
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 5: than a sentence about.

609
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,719
Speaker 2: That, Professor Fishback, thank you so much for joining us

610
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: on the bright Side.

611
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me, and no good luck to

612
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 5: you and everyone else with their goals in twenty twenty five.

613
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 1: Hmmm, that's such a nice wish. Thank you, Professor Fishback.

614
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 3: I Let Fishback is a professor of behavioral science at

615
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: the University of Chicago and the author.

616
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: Of the book Get It Done.

617
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation.

618
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 2: That's it for today's show. On Monday, we're tapping into

619
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 2: the incredible power of mentorship with Dolores Morton, the CEO

620
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: of the mentorship nonprofit Step Up.

621
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,

622
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The bright

623
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: Side is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts,

624
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: and it is exactecutive produced by Reese Witherspoon.

625
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: Production by Arcana Audio. Our producers are Jessica Wank, Krista Ripple,

626
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: and Amy Padula. Our senior producers It's I Kintania and

627
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 2: our engineer is PJ. Shahamat.

628
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: Arcana's executive producers are Francis Harlowe and Abby Ruzka.

629
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: Arcana's head of production is Matt Schultz.

630
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: Natalie Tulluck and Maureen Polo are the executive producers for

631
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: Hello Sunshine.

632
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 3: Julia Weaver is the supervising producer, and Ali Perry is

633
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 3: the executive producer.

634
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: For iHeart Podcasts.

635
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 3: Tim Palazzola is our showrunner. This week's episodes were recorded

636
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 3: by Graham Gibson and Joel Morales.

637
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Anna Stump and Hamilton lighthauser.

638
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 3: Special thanks to Connell Byrne and Will Pearson.

639
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: I'm Simone Boyce. You can find me at Simone Boyce

640
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: on Instagram and TikTok.

641
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: And I'm Danielle Robey on Instagram and TikTok. That's ro

642
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: Ba y We'll.

643
00:34:52,239 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: See you Monday. Y'all. Keep looking on the bright side.