1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: I do have a bird update. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you texted me a picture of 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: your bird. Yeah, and you just like, without any sense 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: of irony, You're like, Fatspa's teen feathers are coming in. 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 2: So she's just foughts ban I think so, I mean see. 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Thoughts, but like for purposes of this podcast, or do 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: you call him that? Like to your parents and in the. 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: Halls and walls of the Greifeld house, he is just bird. 10 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: And also we're saying he as if he's a boy, 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: but we don't know that. 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: But this front of the show Lackman. 13 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, to the rest of the world, he's Fatspa front 14 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: of the show Bill Lackman. But I haven't explained the 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 2: joke to my parents. 16 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: Yet, so we explained it to the bird quietly. 17 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: I think I have said to him, your name is Bilackman, 18 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: but I don't think he's internalized that that was the 19 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: update though, that his teenage feathers are coming in. 20 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Good him. 21 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's super interesting. Hopefully I'm not the only one 22 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: who thinks so. And Starling's are juveniles when they first 23 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 2: grow their feathers, they're super brown. And kind of boring. 24 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: But in the later stages of being a juvenile, he's 25 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: still not an adult he or she, but they get 26 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: this like interesting polka dot pattern on their chest and 27 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: so it's growing in and patches the polka dots on 28 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: his chest. Yeah, he's super cute. 29 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you'll know his gender because like they have 30 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: different plumage on their adults. 31 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: Yes, So hopefully in the next couple months we should 32 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: know it'll be a gender reveal. 33 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 1: Are you gonna have a bird gender reveal party? 34 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: I think it's more he or she is throwing the 35 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: party for us, and the party is just very solely 36 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 2: overtime the feathers change. 37 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: This is making me realize I have another question, which is, 38 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: what will thoughts but romantic life be, like. 39 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 2: You know, none or I think right now it's none. 40 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: I would like to. 41 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: I'm settled down at a nice lady bird of us. 42 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, you know, I don't know. I was thinking 43 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 2: it would be nice for thoughts but to have a 44 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: friend where my parents live in New Jersey. Unfortunately, it's 45 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 2: not that uncommon to find stranded baby birds, so maybe 46 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: that'll happen in the next few years. 47 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: Right, I assume like there's no prospect of like visiting 48 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: wild starlings chatting with thoughts like. 49 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: Setting him up with a wild bird. I don't know. 50 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 2: I don't know logistically how that would work. I don't 51 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: think there are like any starling stud farms either. 52 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: But hey, just run around the backyard right like indoor 53 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: bird or I don't know if. 54 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 2: He would come back, And I worry about him being 55 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: able to feed himself. He is. Oh another update. I 56 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: sort of got this one as interesting too. So I 57 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: was talking about how he only wants to land on humans. 58 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: So because he's in this largish half outdoor half indoor room, 59 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 2: and he had been in the cage and then we 60 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: would let him out for free flight, I made the 61 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: executive decision, let's just have him out all the time. 62 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: The cage doors are open. He can go in and 63 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,679 Speaker 2: out as he pleases, because there's a hose and a 64 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: drain in the floor in that room, so we can 65 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: just clean it down whenever we need to. 66 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: With I need a like that. 67 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: With the introduction of free flight, he is much more 68 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: confident about perching on things other than humans. 69 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, he's like flying around all day and needs. 70 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: Sometimes That's there's not always a human in the room 71 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 2: with him, So now he's more comfortable with the idea 72 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: that other objects are suitable purchase. 73 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Money's Love Podcast, your podcast 74 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: where you're talking about stuff related to money. I'm Matt 75 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: Levine and I read the money Stopt column for Bloomberg Opinion. 76 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 77 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 78 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: If that's he's going to be all burned updates, it's 79 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: just gonna be Yeah, but he's going to get a. 80 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: Microphone and he's just squawks. He does have different squawks 81 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: for different things, Like you can tell when he's talking 82 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: about atfs when you talk about ETFs, you know, or 83 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 2: memes for that matter. 84 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, memes, memestocks are back. 85 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: We're back in twenty twenty one, the helcyon days. 86 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: I have to say, yeah, I'm not feeling it. Are 87 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: there people feeling it? Am I just old? Like? Are 88 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: the people on the internet like, oh yeah, this is 89 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: just as good as it was in twenty twenty one. 90 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: It kind of reminds me of Crypto, how Crypto had 91 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 2: this resurgence and we're back at all time highs and 92 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: then some and it just feels like way less people care. 93 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: And it feels kind of that way with the meme 94 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: frenzy that we're seeing right now. 95 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: Crypto is weirder because Crypto has a lot of different 96 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: like streams, like memestocks kind of have you know, one 97 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: stream which is people on the internet doing memes. That's true, 98 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: it just feels like less. 99 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, Well, we've seen it before. 100 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: You know, you've seen it before. 101 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 2: It was novel the first time. 102 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, you know the point at memes Dice 103 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: is like people are on the internet talking about them 104 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: and then too they go up a lot, right, and 105 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: you really need the going up a lot to make 106 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: it that fun. And I feel like we're not quite there. 107 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the Novelty in twenty twenty one was so 108 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: you know, like millions of people came to Wall Street 109 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: Bets for the first time, like it was creating millions 110 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: of accounts a day. Yeah, and that doesn't seem to 111 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: be happening here because like everyone who was going to 112 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: get into it get into it. I mean now that 113 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: fully realized. The first time I knew it, but I 114 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: didn't like fully internalize it. How much memes dogs are? 115 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: Can I do with short squeezes? It's so important to 116 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: every memestock thesis, like oh, the evil shorts are getting 117 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:39,720 Speaker 1: squeezed right, Like it's it's like such a central part 118 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: of the story. And like one thing is that there 119 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: were learnings from twenty twenty one hedge funds, like don't 120 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: short a ton of crummy consumer focused stocks because you 121 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 1: might get carried out. And so if all the shorts 122 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: are like less short, then uh, you know, Bernhower was 123 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: writing about this newsletter that the shorts are going to 124 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: have smaller positions in this conference. So what that suggests 125 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: is like one, it's easier to do a short squeeze, 126 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: like you'll get kind of the meme stock pop because 127 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: as soon as a stock starts meming, all the shortsellers 128 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: are going to cover their positions. But then two, it's 129 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: not going to be as long lasting or as big 130 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: because they all just cover their positions immediately and there 131 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: won't be like the games up there with like months 132 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: where people were like, oh, it's going to be the 133 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: mother of all short squeze is the shorts still haven't 134 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: enforced that, and like that's just it's instantaneous now. Yeah. 135 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: It still does though, seem like maybe it's not sophisticated 136 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: hedge funds who are short in these stocks, like most 137 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: of the ones that went crazy this week, or Real 138 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: least Coals, which kind of led the meme frenzy this 139 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: specific week. I think it's forty eight percent of its 140 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: float was shorted. Yeah, I mean, well, I was thinking 141 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: about that list that you asked chat gibt for or 142 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 2: the chat GBT produced for you, and one of it was, 143 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 2: you know, the company needs to be unloved or not appreciated. 144 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So I asked chat gbt like it's the 145 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: next caravan and it's the next hundred bagger, and it 146 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: gave me this kind of memi answer. Yeah, it was 147 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: like it needs to have a heavy short interest and 148 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: be like unloved or underappreciated by the market. And that 149 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: is kind of that's it. 150 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: That's like it felt like that was the most important thing. 151 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: Or it's a sense of resentment. You need to be 152 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: like mad at you need to have. 153 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: A chip on your shoulder. Yeah, so that goes hand 154 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: in hand with the you know, heavy short interest that 155 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: this is you're going to put them in the same line. 156 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's like there's like technical reasons that everyone 157 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: could hate US stock and it could not be heavily 158 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: shorted because it's like really hard to borrow. But now 159 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: in general, that's those are the same thing. 160 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: Something that I appreciated though, about the fact that we're 161 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 2: having this conversation in twenty twenty five was that it 162 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: dispelled at least two myths that were part of the 163 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: conversation in twenty twenty one. The first being that the 164 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: activity that we saw back then was all fueled by 165 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: stimulus checks, you know, the stimulus checks that the govern 166 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: and had helicopter across everyone. 167 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. That totally dispels that met I mean, 168 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: like some of the stuff I've read about this meme 169 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: stock thing is like there's been enough of a stock 170 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: rally to create kind of a wealth effect, and like 171 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: the snameuless checks are another form of that. 172 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, I agree, Like, yeah, that could have been 173 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: true in any time. That's right, except for I guess 174 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and everyone. 175 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, no, you're right, it's not the 176 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: stimulus checks, and. 177 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: The wealth effect I think has somewhat been eroded by inflation. 178 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: The fact that Okay, stocks have gone up, but it 179 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 2: so have the prices on everything else. I was in 180 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: a grocery store and Hoboken and there were these like 181 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 2: probably looking college kids and they were complaining about the 182 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: price of like produce. I was like, that's so interesting, 183 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: Like it's just so much in just everyday conversations that 184 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: you stumble across people complaining about how expensive everything is. 185 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:52,559 Speaker 2: So I think the wealth effect is out there, but 186 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: I think it's less so. The other myth that it 187 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: dispelled was that the me mania was just a byproduct 188 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 2: of zero interest rates. That is very much not the 189 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: case right now. 190 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair, right. Another thing that you were just 191 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: learning it was like, it's not an isolated phenomenon, right, 192 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: It's not just like it has happened once and then 193 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: people like learned from it. Like I think that what 194 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: people learn from it is like it works, right, It's 195 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: like a good game. 196 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,559 Speaker 2: It's a good game. 197 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: Why not make a stock triple? And you know the 198 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: course of a few days. 199 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: Also, I know you explicitly said it's not investment advice, 200 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: but I know that so many people after reading your 201 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 2: column must have for fun, gone to chat GBT and 202 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: asked what the next carbon is? 203 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like right, I wrote, like a reader 204 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,599 Speaker 1: emailed me to be like I aske chat GPT and 205 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: that carbon I was, and it told me open Door, 206 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: So I bought open Door and look at me right. 207 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: And I don't get the sense that what has happened 208 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: in the last week or two is mainly or like 209 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: largely AI driven, Yeah, but it does feel like in 210 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one there was this like coordination mechanism where 211 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: people who wanted to buy Mimi stocks and like have 212 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: stocks that go up a lot, like would go to 213 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: you know, social media, so they'd Reddit mostly right Wall 214 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: Street paths, and they'd like meet their friends there and 215 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: their friends would talk about what stocks would go up, 216 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: and they'd all kind of like coordinate around the stocks 217 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: that they wanted to go up. And like, in some 218 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: ways it feels like AI, which is like trained on Reddit, 219 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: you know, has like found a way to abstract that 220 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: where now, if you want to find the next to 221 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 1: Mimi stock that will go up a lot, your instinct 222 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: might not be to go to Reddit and ask the 223 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: people there. Your instinct might be to go to chat 224 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: chapt and ask chat chapt and chat GPT might tell you, right, 225 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: it might tell you something that's kind of similar to 226 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: a reddit or would tell you I think that's an interesting, 227 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: like new vector for meme stocks to happen. And yeah, 228 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: it's like you don't need anyone else on Reddit pumping 229 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 1: the stock because like our AI tools have now been 230 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: trained on that kind of meme stock, thinking. 231 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hadn't heard the idea that lllm's are just 232 00:10:58,080 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 2: a blurry jpeg of the Internet. 233 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: That's a ten Chang's headline that I love that. 234 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 2: I love that I hadn't read that piece. I will say, 235 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: reading your music's on that just made me more existentially 236 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: worried about humanity because I don't think that people should 237 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: be taking advice from Reddit or the blurry sess thing 238 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: that's produced Reddit, right. 239 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: I mean Alex balk used to say the first rule 240 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: of the Internet is the things you hate about the 241 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: Internet or the things you hate about people. When you 242 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: say people shouldn't be taking advice from Reddit, you're saying 243 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: people shouldn't be taking advice from people like AI is 244 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: a distillation of Yes, the wisdom and the foibles of 245 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: people right of the masses, Yeah, of something of some 246 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: subset of people. Yeah, the people who are on Reddit, 247 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: not only but also them. Yeah. Right, Like used to 248 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: write this, Like if you had asked someone one hundred 249 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: years ago what stocks should I buy? Or like how 250 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: do stocks go up? They probably have said something like 251 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: stock go up because a lot of people want to 252 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: buy them. It's like fairly straightforward. I think if you 253 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: ask people fifty years ago what stocks will go up, 254 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: they would say things like stocks reflect the expected value 255 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: of future cash flows and true stocks that will go 256 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: up are the ones that have good businesses that are 257 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: undervalued by the market or something right. 258 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: Makes sense, And I think if you asked. 259 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,679 Speaker 1: Today, the answer is the stocks that people want to 260 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: buy are the ones that go up. Right. Yeah, there's 261 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: this like pseudo science of investing based on fundamental analysis 262 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: that kind of ruled for fifty for you know, seventy 263 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: five years, and that now like has received a little 264 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: bit and been replaced by ah, whatever people want to do, 265 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: what they're going to do, right, And like, in some 266 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: ways we've had like new technologies to distill and like 267 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 1: amplify whatever people want to do they're going to do, 268 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: and those technologies include the Internet and now AI. But 269 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: like In some ways it's frustrating because things don't have reasons, 270 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: but in other ways it's like that's how it should be. 271 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: It's just like investing is an empirical science. Like if 272 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: the stocks go up, it's because the stocks went up. 273 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: There's not like some axiomatic that will tell you why 274 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: thyes will go up. It's like you have to sort 275 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: of know what people are thinking. 276 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 2: I do kind of love that. Every time this happens. 277 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 2: You know, there's a set of serious people who have 278 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: to engage with it and like try. 279 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: To Am I one of them? Not really, No, No, 280 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: I'm talking more about like I lost my mind the 281 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: last night that happened, but now I have like zen. 282 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: I'm talking about more about like cell side sure, and 283 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,119 Speaker 2: like you know, single. 284 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: Stock anlysts, you really like live in an ecosystem of 285 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: like stocks reflect the present value of their future cash. 286 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's your bible. Yeah, your whole job is predicated 287 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: on that. 288 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: You have like a little fundamental model. 289 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,719 Speaker 2: It's really right, It's precious. There was a note from 290 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: Barclay's talking about how to engage with it. They said 291 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 2: that one way you can hedge is like through a 292 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 2: dispersion trade of sorts, in this case, using options to 293 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: bet on a basket of meme stocks that will continue 294 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: to be far more vital than the s and P 295 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 2: five hundred. Those wanting to take a more directional bet 296 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 2: on the frothiest company they can buy puts that would 297 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: benefit if he shares reverse course, which I don't know. 298 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,560 Speaker 2: I just feel like the safest thing that anyone could 299 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: do is just not short. 300 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: Things, right, I mean, like, I think the idea of 301 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: buying putsas like you capped your Yes, you could lose 302 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: that much money, but no more. 303 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: Your losses aren't infinite. 304 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: Right, It's the safest way to short meme stacks. But no, 305 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: I agree with you, Like I would not personally wake 306 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: up and see a memestack mania and be like, oh 307 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: I gotta betty ends these. That's on that good use 308 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: of my time. But I'm not a professional investor and 309 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: I'm not a research channelist or. 310 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: Even before you get to that point, you know, if 311 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: you don't want to get your face ripped off on 312 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: a company that you were shorting, maybe just don't short it, right, Yeah, 313 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: no investment advice. 314 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't. But I you know some people, some 315 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: people you know their job is to make correct market calls, 316 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: and other people their job and I symbolize with the 317 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: research channeists, because other people their job is to create 318 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: relevant markets related content. And when there's a memestock behavior, 319 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: you're like, well, what memestock content am I going to produce? 320 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: And I know that I know that difficulty. Well, sympathize 321 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: with anyone else who has to create memes like related content. 322 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: I want everyone to know that this was your idea. 323 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: I know. I keep pushing ETFs, I know, and I 324 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: keep sayings, I. 325 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 2: Don't know if anyone wants to listen to it. This 326 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: was Matt's idea. 327 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: I love these ETFs. 328 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, three five three five one ETFs three fifty one's yeah. 329 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: So one way to understand exchange traded funds is that 330 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: they're exchange traded funds and they have nice like liquidity properties. 331 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: But the real way to understand ETFs is that they 332 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: are tages. Yes, and in particular, I learned that if 333 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: you buy a mutual fund like you annually pay capital 334 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: gains taxes on like the funds trading activity as whereas 335 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: if you buy an ETF you do not. Because ets 336 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: have found a way to make all of their trading 337 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: both the meet redemptions and to like change their positions. 338 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: They found a way to make all of their trading 339 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: not a tax realization event. And this involves like in 340 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: kind creations and redemptions. That involves like doing big heartbeat 341 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: trades with like authorized participants. It's a whole ecosystem. But 342 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: the way it works is the result of it is 343 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: that you don't pay taxes. 344 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: Well, you get to decide one you want to take 345 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: the tax hit. 346 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you buy an ETF, this is not one 347 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: hundred percent try, but this is you know, largely true direction. 348 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: If you buy an ETF, you do not pay any 349 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: taxes until you sell the ETF, which is not true 350 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: of mutual funds. Are mutual funds you pay tax every 351 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: year and the older forever. But with an ETF, you 352 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: don't pay taxes until you sell the ETF shares and 353 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: then gets wrapped up in the ecosystem of like you 354 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: buy an asset, you defer taxes forever. You bar against 355 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: the asset if you need to. Eventually you die, your 356 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: airs get stepped out basis and like no one ever 357 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: pays the tax, but at least you defer the tax. 358 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,919 Speaker 1: So even if you saw you might have to. If 359 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: you sell the thing, eventually you pay taxes, and so 360 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: that's really good. And it's like, you know, if you 361 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: own like an S and P five hundred ETF, it's 362 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: a little bit more tax efficient than if you own 363 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: an SMP five hundred mutual fund because they're trading your 364 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: redemptions whatever. But like, like whatever, it's not a huge 365 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: impact on your life to pay those capital in sizes. 366 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: Where it's really interesting is if you can use that 367 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: to wrap other stuff. And so I think and so 368 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 1: we're talking about like the Bloomberg's just teamed to lead 369 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: you write a big article about these these three but 370 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: like directionally, the idea is you worked at like a 371 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: tech company, you got a lot of stock early on, 372 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,160 Speaker 1: and so your stock has a basis of roughly zero 373 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 1: and it's now worth roughly one hundred million dollars. Does 374 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: seem like some of these trades are for like one 375 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars, And so you have a lot of 376 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: the stock and if you sell it, you'll have tens 377 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: of billions of dollars with capital against taxes. And what 378 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: you do is someone comes to you and like I 379 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: will build an ETF for you, and you PLoP your 380 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: stock into the CTF that it is custom built for you, 381 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: and then the ETF does trades to get of that 382 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: stock and replace it with like, you know, the S 383 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: and P five hundred, and then you are left with 384 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: S and P five hundred and you don't pay any 385 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: taxes deferred taxes. You have zero basis in the S 386 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: and P five hundred, but you've deferred taxes. You've sold 387 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 1: out of your giant concentrated position in your employer stock 388 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: and replaced it with like a nice diversified index fund 389 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: without paying taxes, which is a really neat trick. Yes, 390 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: I'm like oversimplifying. There's actually like rules about the original 391 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: contribution has to be kind of diversified, so you can't 392 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: just literally PLoP all of your employers stock and nothing 393 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: else into it. But you can do it. 394 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 2: We've talked about swap funds on this. 395 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: This is like a better swap fund. You don't need 396 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 1: other people, you just do it with your stuff. Historically, 397 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: a swap fund was like ten people get together and 398 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: they PLoP their stock in and then. 399 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: Like I don't know, ten people. 400 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: Firstified pool of like each other stocks. This is like 401 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: we just boot boom. You're into the S and P 402 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 1: five hundred so much clean. It is like a swap fund. 403 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: It's a similar idea. 404 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 2: So this kind of blows. 405 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: INTF form because you get the ability to diversify by 406 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: doing heart beats. In the article, someone calls it a 407 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: black hole for capital gain size perfect. 408 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: It's like descriptions. 409 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: It's just it's just like a solution. You don't have 410 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: to it's legal. It's legal. 411 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 2: Sure, it's legal, and I want to. I think it 412 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: was a lawyer that Justina interviewed for the piece who 413 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 2: said that he's worked on hundreds of these or something 414 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 2: of that magnitude, right, and like. 415 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: It's hundreds, it's not millions. Yeah, because like you need 416 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: a certain amount of money to make this work. This 417 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: is not free. You need some advisor. Do you need 418 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: an ETF issuer to do a white label ETF for you? 419 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: So it's expensive. If you have one hundred million dollars 420 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: of zero basis stock in your employer, like it's worth 421 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: it because you're saving twenty million dollars with capital inside. 422 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,639 Speaker 1: If you have like you know, you bought some Tesla 423 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: a few years ago and now you have a million 424 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: dollar Tesla position with like a basis of like five 425 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, you're probably not going to do this. 426 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: But one thing that I have talked about on this. 427 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: Podcast is I think have I also talked about it. 428 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: We've talked about it, right, I have like advocated that 429 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: like eventually everything will be an eaty, Like everything, every 430 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: product will be etfized, and like one thing that means 431 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: is like there will be automation and costs will come 432 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: down so that if you're just like I want to 433 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: do an ETF of this thing, like you'll push a 434 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: button and it'll charge you like ninety five dollars and 435 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: you'll get the ATF. And like when that happens, no 436 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: one will have to pay capital gains taxes on their 437 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: stock because everyone will be able to do this. 438 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: And then we'll find out some way that this is illegal, 439 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: Like it'll become. 440 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: One will be like, well we should stop that. It's 441 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: not like obviously this should work, right, I mean yeah, 442 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: So the trade that they do is called a heartbeat, right, 443 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 1: Like the idea is that you're an ETF, you want 444 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: some concentrated stock, you don't pay taxes on in kind 445 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: creations and redemptions. So if someone brings you a basket 446 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 1: of your stock, if they bring you a basket of 447 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: the underlying shares and you give them ETF shares, that's 448 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: not a taxable transaction or vice versa. And so what 449 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: they do is they have special baskets where basically, you know, 450 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: a Jane Street or a bank or somebody will go 451 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: to an ETF. They'll bring in the stuff the ETF wants. 452 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: They'll give them the S and P. Five hundred, they'll 453 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: get back ETF shares. They'll wait like a day, and 454 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: then the next day they'll hand back the ETF shares 455 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: and take out whatever the ETF doesn't want. So it's like, 456 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: these are not taxable transactions. Yeah, but they're weird transactions. 457 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: They're not in the full underlying basket of the ETF. 458 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: They're in like the specific stuff that ETF does he 459 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: doesn't want, And they're not done because the counterparty wants 460 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: to be an investor in the ETF. They're done because 461 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, the ETF is a just thing. It's training. 462 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 1: I first learned about this in twenty nineteen when Bloomberg 463 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: had a big article about heart beats and. 464 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: A seminal piece or a. 465 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: Seminal piece, and they were sort of like this really 466 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: be legal, and you know, my view was like, sure 467 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: it should be legal. ETFs doesn't pay taxes. But now 468 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: it's like people have like learned from this mechanism that 469 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: they can just get rid of all taxes. And then 470 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you know, someone might look at this 471 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: and say, hey, we should close that loophole. 472 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: That's the thing, Like the notion of a heartbeat is 473 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 2: pretty well socialized at this point, but like these individualized 474 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: heartbeat ETFs. The fact that these ETFs only exist to 475 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 2: do this because you see heartbeat trades once a quarter 476 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 2: in some of the biggest CTFs out. 477 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: There, right because they're index funds. The index changes, and 478 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: so they have to get rid of some stocks and 479 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: get those talks and like you heartbeat that away so 480 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: you don't pay taxes. It's not obvious that ETF holders 481 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't have to pay taxes on their index rebalancing, but 482 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: like everyone's fine with that. 483 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: It's fine, Yeah, this is this is this is the 484 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: only purpose of the CTF. 485 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:51,959 Speaker 1: I mean, who can say with the only bet who 486 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: can say? 487 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: But so this leading anecdote that just you know, opened 488 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 2: with was talking about the Twin Oak Active Opportunities ETF 489 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: and and the thing about ETF, So this one has 490 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: nearly four hundred and fifty million dollars in assets that 491 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: could theoretically be all one person. 492 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: It could My impression was that it was like a 493 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: bunch of like SMP and stuff. But then it was 494 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: like three sort of nearly one hundred million dollar positions 495 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: and like three text talks, which no, say, day a 496 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: dog suggests it was roughly three people who like this 497 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: is pure speculation, but like it could have been three 498 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: people who were really employees at those companies or were 499 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: like granture capital investors in those companies and who have 500 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: like very low basis thok in those companies. 501 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 2: Well, theoretically, if they are still holding onto the CTF 502 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: and invested in the CTF in some way and they're 503 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: big enough, we should be able in like forty five 504 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: days or something to see who they are sure, which 505 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 2: is interesting to me. So you lose yes early the. 506 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: Judge of that it does you don't know, right, I 507 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 1: don't know worked at a company. 508 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 2: You use the anonymity that you would get in the 509 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: traditional swap funds. 510 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing that was interesting. The article is 511 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 1: like you lose that and you're even in a more regulated, 512 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: more public vehicle. One thing about it is in the 513 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: ETF trades on the exchange, so anyone can buy it. 514 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,880 Speaker 1: Next to the other thing, no one would. They don't 515 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: market it, and like it's not even clear that anyone 516 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: could because you might own all of it and just 517 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,479 Speaker 1: not sell it. But but like you know, but they can. 518 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: They can buy from authelized participants. Like in theory someone 519 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: could buy the ETF. Well, and so you have like 520 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: these weird obligations where you have like fiducial duties to 521 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: run the ETF in the right way. 522 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: Well, going back to the name, the twin Oak Active 523 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: Opportunities ETF, which builds itself, is seeking long term capital appreciation. 524 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: I could be poking around at my brokerage account somehow 525 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: come across that and be like, yeah, you could click buy. 526 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: I want to see capital appreciate. That sounds good. So 527 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,360 Speaker 2: that's cool too, right. 528 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,880 Speaker 1: It's a like weird family office trade that in theory 529 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: anyone could free ride on. But like the whole juice 530 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: in the trade is in the first like three days, 531 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: so you're not like getting the a super exciting product 532 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: if you just buy it on the exchange, because like 533 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: the whole point of it was to say with the 534 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: people taxes. 535 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 2: Sometimes I wonder slash worry about what's going to happen 536 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: to the ETF industry. As a reporter, I don't have 537 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 2: any feelings, but it feels like every ETF. I track 538 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: ETF filings very closely, but every ETF filing nowadays is 539 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 2: like triple leverage quantum computing stock with an income strategy overlay. 540 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 2: It's just crazy. It's like all of this like spaghetti 541 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: sauce that's being thrown at the wall, and then maybe 542 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: these will become more popular, and then what does the 543 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: industry turn into. I don't know. 544 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: It's just like it turns into everything. It's it's so 545 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: I've written about like tokenization mm hmm, and I think 546 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: it like tokenization of securities is being largely like people 547 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: trying to find sneaky rays around securities laws and like 548 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: pretend that it's about technology. But someone asks you, like 549 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: what do you think is like the good case? Like 550 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: where are like useful things that can be done with 551 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: the organization? And I look at this stuff and I'm like, 552 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: this is gonna be token. Like this is like a 553 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: whole product set that will be turned into APIs that 554 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: will be turned into like, if you want et F, 555 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: there will be like a series of buttons you can 556 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: push and the ETF will come out and will be 557 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: like exactly the et F you want, and it will 558 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: just exist as an ETF. And you want to have 559 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: to like sit at a meeting with a wealth manager 560 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: or like go to a white label ETF firm, you'll 561 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: just like the computer will give you the ETF that 562 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: you want, and it will heartbeat away whatever you don't want. 563 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: I feel like that is change traded everything, yea, not 564 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: just funds. 565 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 1: Any portfolio, any trade, any like combination of wins. 566 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, any desire that I might feel. 567 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: About to hold. Yeah, yeah, any desire. 568 00:26:50,280 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: Well we have to talk about Invesco. 569 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: Yes, that's your idea, okay. 570 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 2: Also in ETF land. This one actually was my idea. 571 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: But really interesting filing last week. I should stop saying interesting. 572 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: Let me just state of fact. There was a filing 573 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: last week from Invesco. Here's something that not a lot 574 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: of people know or care about. 575 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: I mean to step out of the room. You have fun. 576 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 2: The queues. The queues it's an ETF the tracks the 577 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 2: NASAQ one hundred, so it's pretty big, pretty huge, three 578 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty three hundred and sixty billion dollars depending 579 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 2: on the day. Started in the nineties, really from the 580 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 2: dawn of the ETF, one of the oldest still existing ETFs. 581 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: It's actually a unit investment trust. And that's interesting. My 582 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 2: mind is blown because Invesco doesn't make any money off 583 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: of the queues. The way that the fee breakdown as 584 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 2: it stands right now, they charge twenty basis points. A 585 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 2: bunch goes to Nasdaq, from which they license the index. 586 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 2: A bunch goes to B and Y because they're the trustee. 587 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: That does leave some for Invesco. But it is written 588 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: into the que's prospectus that Invesco has to spend that 589 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 2: on marketing, which is why the cues are like the 590 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 2: official ETF of the NCAA and why every big marketing exactly. 591 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: But it's an enormous marketing budget. But I wrote about 592 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: this in August twenty twenty three because it's one of 593 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: my favorite quirks in just the investing landscape that the 594 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: queues are the most profitable ETF because you're charging twenty 595 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: basis points on three hundred and fifty billion dollars of 596 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 2: assets that spins off over seven hundred million dollars of 597 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: fee revenue a year and investco. It's just this piggy 598 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: bank that they can't break. But they're now trying to 599 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: convert the cues into an open ended ETF from a 600 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: unit investment trust. But to do that, they need shareholders 601 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: to approve it. They need holders of the cues to 602 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 2: approve it, which is a gargantuan task because they need 603 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: fifty percent quorum on this vote, and there's tens of 604 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: thousands of queues holders at this point. So it's like 605 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: the ultimate exercise in herding cats. And I'm really fascinated 606 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: to see how this goes. 607 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this question. Can they use 608 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: their enormous marketing budget to like send personal mailings to 609 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: eat shareholder and like I don't think sor and like 610 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: please vote? 611 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 2: I don't think so it's marketing. I mean, in a sense, 612 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 2: it's not just like marketing the product to buy the product, though, 613 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: it's like trying to rally shareholders for this specific purpose. 614 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: Please buy cues to vote to change it into an ETF. 615 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 2: Well, they are offering a carrot of sorts. They will 616 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 2: lower the fee to eighteen basis points. 617 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: Eighteen basis points for an index ETF seems still high, 618 00:29:59,040 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: stordinarily high. 619 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: It is very high. You're right about that, But I 620 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: mean a lot of these holders are locked in. They've 621 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 2: been holding this forever and they don't want to take 622 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: the capital gains head. But if they are able to 623 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: convert it, they'll theoretically be able to change the revenue breakdown. 624 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: So even by lowering the feet, they're still making so 625 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: much more money than they were before. 626 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: They won't have to pay NASDAC. 627 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: And So, because it's a natural question posed by my editors, 628 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: who loses out here? And it seems like who loses 629 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: out are the advertisers? 630 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: You mean the recipient of the advertising? 631 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. So the thinking seems to be that Nasdaq 632 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: will still get their eight basis points. There are eight 633 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 2: basis points of flesh. 634 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: Bony for an index, because like you get, I believe. 635 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 2: It's exclusive though, like I don't think anyone, Yeah, I know, yeah. 636 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense. 637 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 2: So NASAK will still get paid a licensing fee, which 638 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 2: is pretty hefty. VONI will have some sort of role 639 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: not trustee. I believe that Invesco is asking shareholders to 640 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 2: improve Investco to be the trustee as well. Bloomberg Intelligence 641 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 2: estimates that right now Invesco spends eight basis points on marketing, 642 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 2: which is so much money. Invesco estimates that'll be reduced 643 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: to two to three two to three basis points to start, 644 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 2: which translates into something like one hundred and fifty million 645 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 2: dollars in annual revenue that Investco would unlock with pretty 646 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: much no incremental spend to get it right. So you've 647 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: seen Investco shares go absolutely bananas. I mean, it still 648 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 2: needs to be approved. The vote is on October twenty fourth, 649 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: and it's just going to be so hard to get 650 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 2: all those people. 651 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: Any I love the difficulty of getting redown investors to 652 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: it or anything like it comes up occasionally in corporate Yeah, 653 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: and although not that much because corporates usually have mostly 654 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: institutional shareholders unless when their means ducks. But yeah, intf Land, 655 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: it seems hard. 656 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 2: It does seem hard. I think that's interesting. I hope 657 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: that listeners agree, and please tell me if you don't. 658 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 2: The other part of the story that I'll tell you 659 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: about the only other unit investment trust of really meaningful 660 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 2: size out there is Spy Sure, which is also from 661 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 2: the nineties, born in nineteen ninety three, such as myself sure, and. 662 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: Also famously has there's like some other children born around 663 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: that time. Whoever in the. 664 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: Perspectus, yeah, exactly, like all of these really old ETFs 665 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: have these funky perspectuses. 666 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, they really against perpetuity problems, where like, yeah, their 667 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: trusts and so they can't last past, you know, seventy 668 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: five years past the life of some living person, and 669 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: so they name a bunch of babies as like their 670 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: reference lives for their early against perpetuities. 671 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: If you ever really bored, it's worth poking around in 672 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: the perspectus of ETFs that were born in the nineties. 673 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: I have I hope you going to say I've never 674 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: been that word. I'm pretty sure I've looked at the 675 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: spy perspective, so might I have been that word? 676 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: I asked an Apaglia of State Street Investment Management on 677 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: Monday whether or not State Street was going to try 678 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: something similar with Spy, and she said that filing to 679 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 2: us is interesting, we are going to learn from it. 680 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: And I never say never. Do you know if we 681 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 2: learn something that we like from this proxy, we will 682 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: think about it, which I heard as if Invesco is 683 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: able to pull this off, maybe we'll do it with SPY. 684 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: The spy have the same economic structure. Yes, eonomic money 685 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: from spy. 686 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: So some money stays in the door because State Street 687 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: is currently the trustee on SPY, but they also have 688 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 2: to spend a boatload of money on marketing as mandated 689 00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: by the perspectives. 690 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: Okay, what's the charge for a spy? 691 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 2: I think spy has nine basis points? I know, Well, 692 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 2: they can't lower it that much because they have to 693 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: give money to their index. They have to give money 694 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 2: to the trustee, which is them, and then they have 695 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 2: to spend money on marketing with the index. 696 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: Like I'm aware of SMP funds that charge. 697 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 2: That's true too, or your bass. 698 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the index can't be that expensive. 699 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: Definitely less so when it comes to the S and 700 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: P five hundred. Sorry for all the ETF talk, but 701 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 2: half of it was Matt's idea. The other half that 702 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: was all me. 703 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: Please write in and let us know, Please, Darren, No, I. 704 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: Always want to hear I read it. I read every comment, 705 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 2: so keep them coming. Please don't hurt my feelings. 706 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: Go ahead and hurt badlines. And that was the Money 707 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast. 708 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: I'm Matt Leuvian and I'm Katie Greifeld. 709 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: You can find my work by subscribing to The Money 710 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg dot com, and you. 711 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 2: Can find me on Bloomberg TV every day on Open 712 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: Interest between nine to eleven am Eastern. 713 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 714 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: email to money Pod at Bloomberg dot net, ask us 715 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: a question and we might answer it on air. 716 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 717 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 2: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 718 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:10,439 Speaker 2: people find the show. 719 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Maserakis and 720 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: Moses One. 721 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples and Stage 722 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 2: Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. 723 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be 724 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 1: back next week with more stuff