1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: today's best minds. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 2: And a new California oprohibits using AI as a basis 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 2: to deny insurance claims. We have such a great show 6 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 2: for you today as we start to come back from 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: our vacation called me a journalism review Daily newsletter editor 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: John also examines how journalism is changing going into twenty 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: twenty five. But first we have the Lincoln Projects. Rick 10 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: Wilson will join us to discuss what Mike Johnson's rule 11 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 2: over the House will look like. 12 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, Welcome back to Fast Politics. 13 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 3: Hello, Molly, how are you today? 14 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I am good. We were on television together last night, 15 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: which was incredibly fun. 16 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 3: It was fun. That was a good hit. 17 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,959 Speaker 1: It was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean an incredibly 18 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: weird moment to talk about American politics. Why is this 19 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: such a fucking horrible moment in American politics? 20 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 3: Because he shouldn't have won and he did, and people 21 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 3: have yet to figure out how we work that problem. 22 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: It is an unsolvable problem for a lot of Americans 23 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 3: right now. 24 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: You know what I think is the reason why this 25 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: moment is so hard, and the moment and it's that 26 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: weird period between the election and the inauguration, and it 27 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: always is bad because you have a moment where you 28 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: think either I think the enemy of all political discourse 29 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: is hope. Right. Sure, sure for either party where you 30 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: think this is going to be it, they're going to 31 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: get in there. They're going to you know, even like 32 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: I think about the Biden Edman, you know, there certainly 33 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: were things done, legislation that was blockbuster passed, but there 34 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: were many things that a lot of us hoped for, 35 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: especially Democrats, that were either not doable or not done right. 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 1: I think that's fair. 37 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: Look, I mean, I think we've come down to this point, 38 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: and you made this point last night on TV. There 39 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 3: were a lot of things that Joe Biden accomplished that 40 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 3: were extraordinarily popular and to the net good of the country. 41 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 3: They were completely unsold to people. People didn't get it, 42 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: They didn't like a lot of the things they thought 43 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 3: were happening. They didn't know about the things that they 44 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: should have liked that were happening, and so you know, 45 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 3: we ended up in this really grim spot where you know, Biden, 46 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: as they said, you know, he couldn't win for losing, 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: and Harris had a limited porch to you, a momented 48 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 3: window of time to sell that stuff, a short porch, 49 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 3: as they say, to sell those things. And I think 50 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 3: we also underscored and I think this is also the 51 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: source of some of our misery as a country. We 52 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: underscored the role of celebrity in our society. And as 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: much of a shit, tear, horrifying celebrity as Trump is, 54 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: he's still a celebrity, and I think that really messes 55 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: people's heads up. 56 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: Well, he also was not burdened with the truth, right, 57 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: he was able to say things that a lot of 58 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: us knew were undoable, absolutely, And I mean, like this 59 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: is the big, the crux, crux of the problem that 60 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: Trump will likely have if we continue, you know again, 61 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: we'll probably go back to the Trump and Earth one 62 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: and Earth two scenario. Right, So on Earth two, uh, 63 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, on Earth one, groceries will still be you know, 64 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: there will still be inflation. But on Earth too, Trump 65 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: will say, you know, I've done this, I've done that. 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: And again he I mean, you couldn't be a politician 67 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: and go on television and say I'm going to make 68 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: things cheaper because there was no path to it except 69 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: price controls, which American corporations hate. 70 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 3: Right to be honest. As a country, we don't have 71 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: a super record with those working out. Yes over time, 72 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: I mean good in theory, but problematic in execution. I 73 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 3: also think that, and this is something I've been a 74 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 3: lot over the holiday, you know, taking some time and 75 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: thinking about, like the whole scope of what's been happening. 76 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 3: Americans want the good guy to win, and now we 77 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 3: have the anti hero in charge of everything. And this 78 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: anti hero is is a bad candidate, a bad leader, 79 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 3: a bad person, a bad American, a bad human being. 80 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: And yet he won, and people are scared he's going 81 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: to abuse the power he's been given. He will. People 82 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: are are also, I think, in a weird way, nervous 83 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 3: because he reflects something about the country that we've become 84 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 3: something not great, something dark. We left to look in 85 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: the mirror a who we are as a country. And 86 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people are unhappy about that. 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 3: And a lot of people are like, you know, why 88 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: did evil triumph over good? Why is this guy going 89 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: to be president? It's hard for people to accept that. 90 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 3: They don't like it, they don't want it. Or like it. 91 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 3: And man, the more I've thought about it the last 92 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 3: couple of days, it's like, we feel guilty that this 93 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: guy got elected. I do. I feel guilty he got elected. 94 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 3: I worked my ass off to not make to make 95 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: sure he wasn't elected, but he got elected. And I 96 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: think there's something in that that is painful for America 97 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: and we don't like it. We're not happy about it. 98 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I would add that people didn't show 99 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: up for her, right. I mean when you look at 100 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: the numbers at the math like they did. The anti 101 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Trump coalition that showed up for Joe Biden in twenty 102 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: twenty refused to show up for Harris in twenty twenty four. 103 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: That's how we. 104 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 3: Got here exactly. And man, you look at it and 105 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,600 Speaker 3: you're like the defiance of the political gravity that everyone 106 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 3: looked at, you know, everything from Trump's criminality to January sixth, 107 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 3: to the fact that he's just an evil piece of 108 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 3: shit and people people know it. They know looking at 109 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: this guy, he is not ever going to be the 110 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: good guy in the story. He's always going to be 111 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 3: the villain. He's always going to be the asshole, He's 112 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: always going to be the abusive boyfriend. He's always going 113 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 3: to be the monster. And they worked hard and they 114 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: and they lost and for whatever set of reasons, we 115 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: lost this fight. We've talked about this a lot. I 116 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 3: think it really has left people feeling bitter and unhappy 117 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: and distraught and imperiled in a way that we understand 118 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: how bad he can be, we understand the bad things 119 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: he can do, and so people are rightly sort of 120 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 3: sick to their stomachs that we couldn't get to the 121 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 3: finish line. 122 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, here's a question for you, though, is 123 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: like I also think this was one of the big 124 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: problems with this. I mean, look, there were a number 125 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: of problems, but one of the big problems was voters 126 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: did not truly believe that Trump was going to do 127 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: a lot of the things he said he was going 128 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: to do. Now, I think the reason this moment in 129 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: American life is so profoundly awful is because there is 130 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: a spark of hope that a lot of us have 131 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: that perhaps he won't do the kind of stuff we 132 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: know he will, and it is a very depressed you know. Look, 133 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: I mean I think there are people out there who 134 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: really deeply and I am one of them. I would 135 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: love him to just not do a lot of the 136 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: really scary stuff. I mean, prove me wrong. I would 137 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: love it, I mean, but I don't. Unfortunately, I don't 138 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: think that's how it's going to go. And I think 139 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: that is a very scary you know, I mean, what 140 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: does this mean? We don't know, right, we don't know 141 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: what Trump is going to be able to do, but 142 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: we do know that he has a lot more people 143 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: sort of gaming out ways to do it in a 144 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: way he did in twenty sixteen. 145 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 3: One hundred percent, and the absolute loyalty of the people 146 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 3: this time around. There aren't going to be Gymatisis and 147 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: Gary Codes and Rex Tillerson's out there or even Jared 148 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: and Ivanka's out there in the background saying let's he's 149 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: off on this, boss, let's not do this or that. 150 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 3: Let's let's let's not you know, do X or Y. 151 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: I think those people are are you know, in short, 152 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 3: supply the suck up crew is going to be there 153 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 3: in droves, and I'm worried that that those people. They 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 3: have a perspective now that defying the Great Lord and 155 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: Master is a recipe for political and personal disaster. 156 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: I agree, and disagree. Okay, So I would say Susie 157 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: Wilds is obviously a mitigating force. She may not mitigate 158 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: this the way that Jem Mattis did, but she obviously 159 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: and she may have an ambition that is not the 160 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: same as protecting norms and institutions, which is the ambition 161 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: I would like her to have. But she does in 162 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: her way, and perhaps it's to his benefit. She is 163 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: able to enact some degree of control over Trump, right, 164 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly we've seen that. 165 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 3: Look, I would not get your hopes up too high 166 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 3: on that. I would be very cautious about getting yourself 167 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 3: in a frame where you think Susie will save us. 168 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: No, I don't think anyone will save us. But I 169 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: also don't think Muller will save us. 170 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, now, I here's that. 171 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: I think more of the question is, clearly there are 172 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: people behind the scenes who for example, here's what I'm 173 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: thinking of. On Friday, Donald Trump whipped votes for Mike Johnson. Okay, 174 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: he was calling. He called Nancy Mayce. Nancy Mayce put 175 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: him on the phone with people who weren't going to 176 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: vote for Mike Johnson, and he whipped those votes. That 177 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: does not happen if Donald Trump is left to his 178 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: own devices. That happens if someone who is politically savvy 179 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: is telling Donald Trump what to do. 180 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: Yes, And I do think I do think that Donald Trump. 181 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 3: We have to recognize that Trump has a feral sense 182 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 3: of self preservation, and that sense of self preservation kicks 183 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 3: in sometimes when you look at the options. I mean, 184 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: it should speak to a lot to how bad the 185 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 3: party is. That Donald Trump recognized that Mike Johnson was 186 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 3: the best possible. 187 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: Option, right, I mean, yeah, that's. 188 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: The kind of thing that you know, motivated him because 189 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: he recognized that if you have a hard maga freedom 190 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 3: Caucus person in charge of the House, it will be 191 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: complete chaos at all times, and that Mike Johnson is 192 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 3: the best of the best of the worst options, right, 193 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: Which really says that Susie is telling Trump and counseling 194 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 3: Trump like, you need at least a little bit of 195 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: sanity in this picture. And somebody that that you know 196 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 3: will eventually be a patsy like like Johnson. You know, 197 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 3: he's not a He's not a sympathetic character by any means. 198 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 3: He's also not going to be a guy that that 199 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 3: is as crazy as Marjorie Taylor Green or whomever. 200 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I also think even so, I just 201 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: think that it's interesting to watch. Mike Johnson is is 202 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: known to be liked. I think his problem is that 203 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,199 Speaker 1: he cannot with votes, but I think he can't do math. 204 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: But his larger problem, and again this didn't happen on Friday, 205 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: so who knows, is that he has not been able 206 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: to pass any legislation without Democrats. So now he has 207 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: a smaller majority, that's right, And Donald Trump has this 208 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: wildly ambitious legislative agenda. Again, I'm going to use Donald 209 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: Trump and quotes here because obviously Donald Trump legislative agendas 210 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: is a metaphor. But you know, they want to pass 211 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: tax cuts, they want to do it in reconciliation, they 212 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: want to do whatever else it is they want to do. 213 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure that Mike Johnson is your 214 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: man for that. He makes Paul Ryan look like Lincoln. 215 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 3: The tightness of the Republican majority, the tenuousness of the 216 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: Republican majority, gives you a perspective on the fact that 217 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: Mike Johnson can't win without compromises. He can't rally a 218 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: critical mass of the Freedom Caucus without Donald Trump. On 219 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 3: the phone, banging their heads in with a baseball of that. 220 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 3: And if he's not able to have those people immediately 221 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: obedient to him and immediately cooperative with him, you know, 222 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 3: you end up in a moment where it really is 223 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: it really is more tenuous and more and more dangerous, 224 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: because look, Donald Trump will whip votes when he has to, 225 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 3: like actually whip votes. He would much rather be on 226 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: the golf course. He would much rather be doing any 227 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 3: other thing under the sun. 228 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and now we have this question of shokuanaw Right, 229 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: So Trump is promising shokanaw What do we think that means. 230 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: Well, we think it means a wave of executive orders. 231 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 3: And that wave of executive orders is going to is 232 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: going to focus in the beginning on I think two 233 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 3: major areas. One will be the terriff plan, which he 234 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: really believes is an economically viable strategy, which is going 235 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: to be fantastic. 236 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: It's real Herbert Hoover staff, by the way. 237 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it worked out so well the last time we 238 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 3: had massive tariffs, and. 239 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: Herbert Hoover really did when you read the history of it, 240 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: Herbert Hoover really did believe that he knew something no 241 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: one else did. 242 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 3: Uh, huh yes. And the other part of it's going 243 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 3: to be the mass deportations immigration stuff, and he's going 244 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: to try to, i think, use those executive orders in 245 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: the shock and off as to get the Democrats to 246 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 3: take the bait. What they want is outrage. What they 247 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: want is Democrats to be screaming in the streets, how 248 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: dare you treat these immigrants this way? They want the 249 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 3: Democrats to play the role that they that their audience 250 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 3: expects them to play. I agree on the politically correct 251 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: how dare you you racist? Racist? Racist? They want the 252 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 3: Democrats to play. 253 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: The take the bait. 254 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 3: Right the maiden fainting on her fainting couch and screeching 255 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: and losing it. I really think there's an opportunity here 256 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: for the Democrats to not walk into and play the 257 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 3: role that Trump wants them to play. And that's going 258 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: to be tough, it's going to be non trivial, but 259 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: I think it's going to be something that is an 260 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: opportunity for Democrats to say, all right, Donald, this is 261 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 3: on you, bro, go for it, do it, get your 262 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: people to pass it. They should take amy work. In 263 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: my in my view, a calmer, steadier, more like you 264 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 3: want a clown show. It's going to be yours, buddy. 265 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 3: We're not doing any of this in a bipartisan way. 266 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 3: You're not getting any help. You're not getting any any 267 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 3: you know, my honorable colleague, bullshit from us. This is 268 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 3: all stupid. We're not playing your game. Pass it with 269 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: your own people because they can't well. 270 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: And that, I think is it is what we saw 271 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: earlier with the cr right. We saw Trump wanting Democrats 272 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: to get in there and fight, and in the end, 273 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, it was Republicans who wanted to shut down 274 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: the government and other Republicans who wanted to keep it open. 275 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: Hm, keeping the government open. This is like the four 276 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 3: thousandth time I've said this to people every single time 277 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 3: that we look at the party that shuts down the 278 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 3: government is the party that takes the hit. Republicans know this, 279 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: and yet here we go, they're going to do it again. 280 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: You think they're going to do it? 281 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 3: I think I think that that narrow majority if you're 282 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 3: Chip Roy or Thomas Massey or Victoria's Sparts, or if 283 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: you handful these other weirdos. 284 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: I can't think about these people without laughing, because it's 285 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: like there are magots who are like intentionally insane. And 286 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: then there are people like Victorious Sparts is it Sparts 287 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: or spats. 288 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: Sparts spurts spats by I got nothing and. 289 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: She gives these speeches. I mean, this is like in 290 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: beyond continue. 291 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 3: Oh it's cuckookachew. I mean, these are folks who, no 292 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 3: matter what you think the silliness and the weirdness is, 293 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 3: it's one hundred times worse. So every time we have 294 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 3: a debt ceiling crisis, we're going to have these people 295 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 3: do this. Every time we have a budget crisis, We're 296 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 3: going to have these people do this. Every time there's 297 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 3: a bill up. They're going to throw out as many 298 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: of their red herrings and as many as their crazy statements, 299 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 3: as many of their ludicrous demands as they can, because 300 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: that's all they've got, right, that's all they've got. They 301 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: know that there's not a majority in the country that 302 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 3: wants to kill Medicare, Medicaid and social Security, not even close. 303 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 3: There's not a majority in the country that wants to 304 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 3: shut down FEMA or or do one hundred percent immigration 305 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 3: ban or deport the dreamers. They know this. So this 306 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 3: thin edge of the wedge is going to be in 307 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: a position where they have enormous power over and over again. 308 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: Right, it's interesting to me to see. I mean, the 309 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: other thing about executive orders is they're just not you know, 310 00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: there's only so much who can do with them? 311 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, there is. They are bounded to a great degree. 312 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now I think also, and we're almost out a time, 313 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: but I just wanted to talk about John Soon for 314 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: two seconds. He's the new Mitch McConnell. Trump really wanted 315 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: Rick Scott in there. Rick Scott would have been Mike Johnson. 316 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: But there is no Rick Scott in there. So now 317 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: explain to us what the difference is. I think John 318 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: Thune is a big difference. 319 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, let me say this, if I may 320 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 3: quote the great Lloyd Benson. I knew Mitch McConnell. Mitch 321 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 3: McConnell was a friend of mine, and Dohn Thune is 322 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: no Mitch McConnell. I'm quoting the Benson thing. I'm not. 323 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 3: But look, John Thune is a smart guy. He is not, 324 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 3: traditionally speaking, a hypermaga lunatic. 325 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: No not, Yeah, which is good. 326 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 3: But I will say he also does not have Mitch 327 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 3: McConnell's portfolio of legislative superpowers, because whether you all love 328 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: or hate Mitch McConnell, that son of the bit. 329 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah was. 330 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: And as Harry Reid said to me, I've told the 331 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 3: quoted on the show before. As Harry Reid said to 332 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 3: me one time shortly before he passed, when we had 333 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 3: a conversation that there were three Masters of the Senate 334 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: in his lifetime. One of them was Linda Johnson, he 335 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 3: was the other, and the other was Mitch McConnell. And 336 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: McConnell could be a Master of the Senate even in 337 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 3: the minority. Yes, as we saw, is a that is 338 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 3: a singular power that John Thune to date has not demonstrated. 339 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, agreed. And Thune has a real majority, he 340 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: can't lose more than three, but he does have an 341 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: opportunity here. I also think he doesn't necessarily have the 342 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: same you know, the Republican Party is not Trump, and 343 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: Trump is not this Republican Party, even they do not 344 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: have the same desires. 345 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 3: Well, I think that's one of the things that's important 346 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: to understand for a long period of time that where 347 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 3: McConnell was so very, very successful, he had a pretty 348 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 3: unified caucus. They were largely Reagan Bush Republicans, and they 349 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 3: were pretty unified. Right now, John Thune has a faction 350 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 3: in the Senate that are essentially the same kind of 351 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 3: characters that are in the Freedom Caucus in the House. 352 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: So you've got arguably eight or ten Republican senators who 353 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: are just there to burn shit down. They're just there 354 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 3: for the chaos. They're there. Yeah, well they're the Ted 355 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 3: Cruz is there, They're the Cindy Hyde Smith's, They're the 356 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: Tommy Tubberville's. Ted Cruz looks like a statesman compared to 357 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 3: Tommy Tubberville. So all these people in the House are 358 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 3: in the Senate are now they now look a lot 359 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 3: more like the like the people that Mike Johnson has 360 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 3: to contend within the House. And it's not a pretty. 361 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: Picture for sure. Rick Wilson, thank you for joining us. 362 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: As always, my pleasure. Happy New Year, and I will 363 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: see you very soon. 364 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 2: John also is the editor of the Columbia Journalism Reviewed 365 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: Daily newsletter. 366 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Baz Boldeck's job. 367 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having so. 368 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you about where we are 369 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: right now, coming into Trump second administration. Reporting has sort 370 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: of done amazing things already with Trump's second administration. I'm 371 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: wondering if you could talk a little bit about what 372 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: you've seen. 373 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right because I think in 374 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 5: the wake of the election, there was this great, big 375 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 5: throwing up of hands among many mainstream media people and 376 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 5: people who consume mainstream media that was like, Oh, we're 377 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 5: totally irrelevant. No one listens to us, no one takes 378 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 5: us seriously, we have no influence. It's all about Joe 379 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 5: Rogan now or the Milk Boys or whoever. I think 380 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 5: that was always overblown. Personally, I don't want to say 381 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 5: there aren't real challenges with the media's reach and relevance 382 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 5: and how people are going to pay for it, and 383 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 5: the fragmentation of the information environment all the rest of it. 384 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 5: It's a big problem and something obviously that fine minds need. 385 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 4: To think about. 386 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 5: But just on the sort of most basic level of 387 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 5: are the stories that mainstream news organizations doing having impact. 388 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 5: We've already seen that that is the case for this 389 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 5: second Trump administration. Before it's even started. There's been a 390 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 5: slew of damaging reporting on the people Trump has nominated 391 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 5: to serve in his top team when he returns to power. 392 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 4: Matt Gates one example. 393 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 5: Of course, Pete Hegseth another Gates ended up dropping out 394 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 5: of the running to be Attorney general forty five minutes, 395 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 5: I believe, after CNN contacted him for comment on a 396 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 5: story that was previously unreported about his alleged past sexual misconduct. 397 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Right, wasn't there a second girl? 398 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think you'd have to check this. I 399 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 5: think it was the same person, but a second incident maybe. Anyway, 400 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 5: it was a news story. And obviously we don't necessarily 401 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 5: know that that was like, you know, the main thing 402 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 5: that caused him to drop out, but the timing seems 403 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 5: pretty clear that it was a factor. You know, it 404 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 5: was at least the straw that broke the camel's back, 405 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 5: as it were loads of reporting on Hesuth as well. 406 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 4: And and so even if journalism, mainstream journalism doesn't. 407 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 5: Necessarily have like a mass audience anymore, or you know, 408 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 5: the audience for journalism is contested, it seems like it's 409 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 5: being paid attention to buy people in DC and by 410 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 5: Trump itself of course, who love's watching TV as we know, 411 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 5: and gets annoyed when there are bad stories on TV 412 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 5: about people he's appointed. So it seems like, you know, 413 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 5: there is a kind of influence that is that is ongoing. 414 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 5: And yeah, there's been some there's been some great reporting 415 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 5: during this period. 416 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 3: For sure. 417 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: It is funny to me, not funny ha ha, because 418 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: we're all gonna die, but funny ironic that Trump loves, loves, 419 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: loves television and really does love mainstream media in a 420 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: way that that older generation does. And even the administration 421 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: like this is one of the leakiest administrations ever. Right 422 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: there are people right now leaking stories about each other. 423 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: I mean, just talk about the leaking from that. 424 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 5: I think generally what you're talking about is like the 425 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 5: big contradiction of Trump, right he has sort of I 426 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 5: don't want to say he's done it single handedly. I 427 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 5: think that might be a bit overblown. But you know, 428 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 5: as ushered in this era of intense threat to press freedom, 429 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 5: intense rhetorical bashing of the press, he's exacerbated and existing 430 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 5: problem of media mistrust no end. And yet you know, 431 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 5: loves to dish to Maggie Haveman, loves to talk to 432 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 5: people at mar Lago who write books about him, loves 433 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 5: to be the sort of center of all attention. Actually, 434 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 5: you know, saying it out loud, I don't really know 435 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 5: if it is a contradiction, right, I guess it's sort 436 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 5: of like an intense relationship he has where he doesn't 437 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 5: like to be spurned by the thing that he spends 438 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 5: so much of his time consuming in a kind of 439 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 5: old school way. But get on the leaking front. I mean, 440 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 5: his first administration, as you rightly I think alluded to, 441 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 5: is was incredibly leaky. 442 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 4: You know people would. 443 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: I mean in ways that I mean, we've never seen 444 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: Biden world do. 445 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 5: Well, No, exactly right. I mean there were stories, weren't there. 446 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 5: I think a couple that I remember reading in the 447 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 5: earlier years of the Biden administration, which were like reporters 448 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 5: off the record saying this is pretty boring, And yeah, 449 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 5: the Trump administration was leaky like a SIEV. We had 450 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 5: loads of things to write about, and they were always 451 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 5: you know, doing it for self interested reasons mostly, but 452 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 5: they were all stabbing each other in the back in 453 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 5: public right by our journalists and settling scores in you know, 454 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 5: the pages of the New York Times or whatever. And 455 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 5: the Biden folks don't do it, you know, that's not 456 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 5: how they operate. And so we don't really have much 457 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 5: to talk about. And I think, you know, a more 458 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 5: serious manifestation was that, you know, whatever the truth of 459 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 5: it is, there were not There were some stories, but 460 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 5: not a ton of, like particularly well sourced insider stories. 461 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 5: I don't think on the effects of Biden's age, for example, 462 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 5: you know that prior to that debate, when it when 463 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 5: that became a huge story because it sort of all 464 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 5: played out publicly, Right, I don't think something like that 465 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 5: would have necessarily happened in the Trump administration because I 466 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 5: think that his advisors we see him every day, would 467 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 5: have been leaking to reporters. It doesn't seem like the 468 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 5: Biden folks were doing that, at least not in the 469 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 5: same kind of chaotic way. So, yeah, no, it's there. Incredibly, 470 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 5: they seem like an incredibly leaky bunch. I guess it'll 471 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 5: be interesting this time to see because it is a 472 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 5: slightly different cast of characters around him, right, whether that 473 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 5: carries on The indication so far suggests that it might 474 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 5: well be the case. 475 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking about leaking, and I'm thinking about the 476 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: transition team was leaking about each other. Right, we saw 477 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: Howard LATINX. Stories leaked out about Howard Lutnik trying to 478 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: pedal influence. If, by the way, if influence pedaling is 479 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: a problem in Trump role, then somebody has really missed, 480 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: has misinterpreted how all this is going to work. They 481 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: do seem to settle scores, right. 482 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, there was this incredible story about Boris Epstein as well, 483 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 5: allegedly asking for money to sort of broker people's introductions 484 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 5: to Trump right in this transitional period. But I think 485 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 5: that was based on a legal report that was compiled 486 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 5: like inside the Trump campaign or sort of inside Trump 487 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 5: well somewhere. That was a pretty extraordinary story as well 488 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 5: that obviously played out publicly. I feel like recently I 489 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 5: saw I can't remember exactly the context, but a quote 490 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 5: from someone who was, you know, quoted anonymously as being 491 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 5: like a source close to the transition team that said 492 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 5: something to the effect of, we can't say this publicly, 493 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 5: but we're concerned about pteg Seth thought or whatever it was, 494 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 5: which I don't know, I just thought. I looked at 495 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 5: it and I was like, no one is making you 496 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 5: do this, right, you could just quit, Like it's just 497 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 5: not a situation you've been like bossed into at gunpoint necessarily. Yeah, 498 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 5: I guess we could expect to see quite a lot 499 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,360 Speaker 5: more of this, which I imagine a number of journalists 500 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 5: are breathing aside of relief about Yees. 501 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: So no, right, because this is the other problem with 502 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 1: I think reporting and Trump world is that these people 503 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: legal out of stuff, but some of it's not true. 504 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 5: Yeah, and a lot of it again is like transparent 505 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 5: score settling. I mean, I remember a debate that went 506 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 5: around in the first Trump administration in the final year 507 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 5: of it, when I. 508 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 4: Think it was at the Washington Post. 509 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 5: Could be wrong about that, but there was a story 510 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 5: basically taking aim at Anthony Fauci in a way that 511 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 5: was just very explicitly like I'm using anonymity to crapple 512 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 5: over this guy in public. And like, I'm not one 513 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 5: of those media critics who thinks that anonymous sources are like, 514 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 5: you know, inherently evil and that we should have a use. 515 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 5: Then I think that they are obviously a key part 516 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 5: of the way journalism works, and if they used to 517 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 5: get instances of wrongdoing or things that need to be 518 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 5: scrutinized out to the public, then that's good. But yeah, 519 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 5: clearly there's another side of it, which is using them 520 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 5: to settle scores Dodge accountability law, the misinformation, and I 521 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 5: think that those are all and always have been very 522 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 5: much par part of the kind of Trump media experience 523 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 5: as well. 524 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a sort of darker thing that's happening 525 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: in Trump world too, which is and this is perhaps 526 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: Trump perhaps more of the Ronda Sanders Heritage Foundation crew, 527 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: but it does feel like they are also targeting journalists. 528 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, And well, I mean, I think what we've 529 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 5: been discussing, and I should clarify the one I says 530 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 5: journalists are breathing a sigh of relief. I don't mean 531 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 5: like about the whole current situation in the incoming administration, 532 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 5: most definitely not, and I fact, I know that's not 533 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 5: the case. I just meant very very specifically about having 534 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 5: sources who will leak them inside of stuff to the 535 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 5: extent that some reporters mostly trade in that well, that's 536 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 5: what they care about. 537 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 4: But no, the sort of broader picture, it's a very 538 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 4: menacing one. 539 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 540 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 5: I mean, obviously we don't know exactly what the second 541 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 5: Trump term is going to look like yet on really 542 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 5: any count, but you know, from a press freedom perspective 543 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 5: as well. But you know, we all know that the 544 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 5: first Trump administration was marked by a kind of rising 545 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 5: rhetorical fusilaid against the press, which obviously did feed true 546 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 5: into growing distrust and disapprobation on the part of you know, 547 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 5: a huge part of the public. That served to sort 548 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 5: of inoculate people against being told that blatant lies like 549 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,439 Speaker 5: the fact that the twenty twenty election were stolen and 550 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 5: things like that, you know, where blatant lies that that 551 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 5: was obviously a very very big problem at the time 552 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 5: that did you know, occasionally spill over into actual physical 553 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 5: violence or threats against members of the press, and you know, 554 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 5: a bit less discussed, but it was revealed during the 555 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 5: Biden administration that I think Trump's Justice Department subpoenaed the 556 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 5: phone records purporters at the New York Times and the 557 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 5: Washington Post and I think at CNN is part of 558 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 5: a leak investigation, not the actual contents of those messages, 559 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 5: but you know, the sort of records of who was 560 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 5: calling who. 561 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 562 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 5: And then obviously now you know, you have people being 563 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 5: nominated or tapped for senior positions in law enforcement and 564 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 5: judicial sort of roles who are on the record as 565 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 5: saying they're going to come after journalists they think existing 566 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 5: sort of legal precedents and protections for journalists are wrong 567 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 5: and something needs to be done about them. So again, 568 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 5: we don't know exactly what's going to happen. That these 569 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 5: threats are incrediblys blicit. People who follow these characters closely 570 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 5: say they're worth taking seriously, and I think it would 571 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 5: be foolish not to take them extremely seriously. 572 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: You know, It's funny because it's like, so much of 573 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: Trump is this kind of throwback to Nixon, right, like 574 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: so and George Wallace, and you know, so much of 575 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: George Wallace is it? You know, these are all history rhymes, right. 576 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: But one of the things when Nixons are attacking the 577 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: press was that the press was such a trusted you know, 578 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: Americans had a lot of feelings, but they really trusted 579 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: their media. That is not true anymore. Who do you 580 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: think Americans trust? 581 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 5: I think it's also worth pointing out, of course, that 582 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 5: the Nixon era and the so ccumstances of his downfall 583 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 5: also sort of birth this generational sense of purpose and 584 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 5: this kind of journalistic imaginary that then was replicated in 585 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 5: the Hollywood and sort of said the archetype for like 586 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 5: what journalists are as public figures, I guess, and you're 587 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 5: right that trust in that sort of brand of journalism 588 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 5: has just decreased and decreased and decreased. I mean in 589 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 5: terms of like who Americans do trust. Obviously, there are 590 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 5: lots of surveys on this kind of thing all the time, 591 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 5: which I firstly cannot just regurgitate off the top of 592 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 5: my head and won't try to. And secondly, I think 593 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 5: some of these, like surveys which say the media is 594 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 5: incredibly distrusted or is like the lowest rank of all 595 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 5: the professions, sometimes they like specifically should be taken with 596 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,959 Speaker 5: a little bit of a grain of salt, Like often, 597 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 5: you know, the media is a category that might include 598 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 5: Fox News, for example. So if you're a Democrat and 599 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 5: you don't trust Fox, you might say I don't trust 600 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 5: the media because that's what you have in mind. I 601 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 5: think it's it's a bit of a fluid thing. That said, 602 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 5: as we've discussed, there's no doubt that you know, trust 603 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 5: in the media in sort of the broad sense in 604 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 5: which we mean it. You know, trust in fact based 605 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 5: reporting is going down. And what's it being replaced by. Well, 606 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 5: I guess it sort of depends on who you are. Right, 607 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 5: in such a fragmented and divided country, it really depends 608 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 5: on who you are. People still tends to trust media 609 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 5: in the very broad sense of that term. That tells 610 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 5: them what they want to hear. Clearly, lots and lots 611 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 5: and lots of trub supporters trust him and his acolytes 612 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 5: when they spin absolutely outrageous the sky is green lies. 613 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 5: A big part of the problem is there isn't sort 614 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 5: of one source of authority that is universally trusted and 615 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 5: that is providing good, credible information. 616 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 4: Now, I don't want to sort. 617 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 5: Of suggest through this that there was some glorious golden 618 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 5: era in the past where everyone trusted institutions and those 619 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 5: institutions were worthy of that trust. Clearly the picture is 620 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 5: enormously more complicated. People being skeptical of authority. Yes, including 621 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 5: the media is good, but you know, and obviously not 622 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 5: when that leads them to believe while conspiracy theories. 623 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 4: That's clearly a huge problem. 624 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: Right, And it seems like there are two problems, right, 625 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: Trust is one, and then backs and truth are another. 626 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: Talk to me about America's truth problem. 627 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 5: How long had you got Well, it's it's you know 628 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 5: it began with Walter Lippman in nineteen the nineteen twenties. 629 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 4: No I won, obviously won't go back that far. I mean, 630 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 4: there is sort of a. 631 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 5: Good point to be made here, right, that the truth 632 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 5: is not a simple thing to find out. It's expensive 633 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 5: to find out, it's difficult, it's contested. It always has been, 634 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 5: and obviously that's like a key part of what the 635 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 5: work of journalism is. So to the extent that sort 636 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 5: of finding out the truth and getting people to believe 637 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 5: it is complicated, that has always been the case. Now 638 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 5: I do again want to push back against these kind 639 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 5: of Falcian conceptions of you know, the sixties and seventies, 640 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 5: is this wonderful age of everyone watched three networks and 641 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 5: you know that as people were totally responsible gatekeepers who 642 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 5: didn't shut out any you know, any sort of perspectives 643 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 5: that Merritt had being heard, YadA, YadA, YadA. But yeah, 644 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 5: you know, it is to some extent a new situation 645 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 5: when shocking numbers of people believe that an election that 646 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 5: was obviously not stolen was stolen. And I think that 647 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 5: we're in this really weird moment where because Trump won again, 648 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 5: people seem to be having a really hard time computing 649 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 5: how to deal with January sixth and the fallout from it, right, 650 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 5: And that's really troubling because it did happen. Trump winning 651 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 5: an election does not just expunge it. And you know, 652 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 5: I think it remains the sort of most singular incidents 653 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 5: of the entire Trump era in terms of its consequences, 654 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 5: but just also in terms of how much of a 655 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 5: disgrace it was, frankly, and yeah, obviously, when you have, 656 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 5: when you have, you know, I think I've seen surveys 657 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 5: in the past suggesting like a majority of the Republican 658 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 5: Party or people who a self self identify as Republicans 659 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 5: certainly believe that I still believe that election was stolen. 660 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 5: I think that being said, though, we shouldn't necessarily interpret 661 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 5: Trump winning again as like, oh, well, you know, the 662 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 5: truth is dead. No one cares about the truth and 663 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 5: majority has spoken and they don't care about the troops. 664 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 4: It's way more complicated than that. 665 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,479 Speaker 1: No, No, agreed, agreed. 666 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, First of all, this was a pretty close election. 667 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 5: It's some people, especially early on, you know, when the 668 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 5: results were still coming in and votes were still being counted, 669 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 5: were referring to it. You know, as if it was 670 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 5: this giant landslide, which it clearly was not. You know, 671 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 5: it was very close election, and I think a lot 672 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 5: of the post election commentary has been sort of very 673 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 5: definitive and decisive about saying what it means, as if 674 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 5: it didn't happen in a country which is essentially still 675 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 5: fifty to fifty, right, it was, this was a couple 676 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 5: of percentage point side away do not a huge mandate 677 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 5: or majority make, and yet that those are the terms 678 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 5: in which we're talking, you know, first of all, Also, 679 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,439 Speaker 5: though you know, it's very clear that like I think 680 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 5: that most people did not like January sixth, that most 681 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 5: people do not believe the last election was stolen, and 682 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 5: that people who who sort of swing voters, if you will, 683 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 5: or be the sort of irregular voters, many of them 684 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 5: who put Trump over the top are not crazed ideologues 685 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 5: who voted him to put Adam Schiff in prison, right 686 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 5: for example. These are people who voted based on the economy, 687 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,439 Speaker 5: their standard of living, what they believed about that they're 688 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 5: sort of individual lives. Now, there is a conversation to 689 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 5: be had as to what it says that a guy 690 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 5: can behave like they did on January sixth and in 691 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 5: and around that time and still get re elected in 692 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 5: terms of what people prioritizing what they care about, right. 693 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: For sure, that is a conversation. 694 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, but it doesn't mean that everyone believes what he 695 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 5: says about it unchallenged or thinks that he behaves well 696 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 5: that day, and that, you know, by extension, doesn't mean 697 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 5: that the people who put Trump over the top in 698 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 5: the election voted him in to behave like a dictator. 699 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 5: I think it would be a mistake to think that 700 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 5: they did. 701 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 3: So. 702 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:17,959 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think it's like the country is lost 703 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 5: or anything, but I think this election has revealed it 704 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 5: to be a much more complicated to country than maybe 705 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 5: many national media types it imagined it to be in 706 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 5: And obviously working out the ways in which that is 707 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 5: true is difficult and murky and painful. 708 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: At the moment, it so sucks. Tell me something that 709 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 1: is working in the mainstream media or the partisan media. 710 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: Just tell me something that's working well. 711 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 5: As we discussed earlier, just on a basic level, journalists 712 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 5: are still going out reporting true things about the world. 713 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 5: I mean, I've been a you know, a critic of 714 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 5: coverage of Trump for a long time. But the reaction 715 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 5: to Trump winning again was not on the whole, oh 716 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 5: my god, we're all going to get sued into oblivion, 717 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 5: or you know, the dictator is going to bring down 718 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 5: his cronies on us. We must shut up and you 719 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 5: know obey. That's not to say that you know, the 720 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 5: coverage has all been great, or hasn't dealt in sort 721 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 5: of tropes that I don't like, or you know that 722 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 5: some people or institutions might not be thinking in those terms. 723 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 5: I think we've seen evidence of all of those things 724 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 5: being the case. But the sort of bagship institutions and 725 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 5: more importantly, the journalists who work within them, have just 726 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 5: carried on doing what they do right. They've reported on 727 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 5: the people that Trump has picked to be in his 728 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 5: top team, and they've done it, I think, pretty aggressively 729 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 5: and pretty quickly, and they've had an impact in doing it. 730 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 5: That to me is a good and promising sign, and 731 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 5: it's to be hoped it continues once this administration comes 732 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 5: into power. This isn't necessarily within journalism. 733 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 4: But also America. 734 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 5: You know, if any country is going to go down 735 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 5: this kind of authoritarian road in terms of media protections, 736 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 5: America is very well it's coming from a very good 737 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 5: starting point, right, It's coming from a starting point with 738 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,760 Speaker 5: excellent libel laws from a journalist's perspective, and those laws 739 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 5: are almost certainly going to be in the hands of 740 00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,799 Speaker 5: a Supreme Court that is dominated by right wingers. But 741 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 5: I'm not convinced it's dominated by right wingers who want 742 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 5: to get rid of those libel standards. 743 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 4: I mean, that's an ongoing conversation and we'll see. 744 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 5: But there's only a couple of them who have explicitly 745 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 5: said that they want to sort of take this on. 746 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 5: And I don't think it would be a you know, 747 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:13,799 Speaker 5: sure thing if this if this did come up in 748 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 5: a case and that was kind of then debated by 749 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 5: the justices. That's again, that's that's sort of an independent 750 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 5: mechanism to what the incoming government's going to do. You 751 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 5: have the First Amendment, which is a pretty big deal, 752 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 5: you know, I'm pertition. I think there are journalists around 753 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 5: world who would love the First Amendment. There are entrenched 754 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 5: defenses the journalists will be able to rely on that 755 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 5: will not make it easy for the most cartoonish we're 756 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 5: going to come and hunt you down people to succeed. 757 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 5: I think that is a good institutional sort of place 758 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 5: to be to be coming from. There are lots of 759 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 5: bad things, but in the media as well, of course, 760 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 5: but those are a couple of good ones. 761 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: Yes, well, you were just needed one good thing. Thank you, 762 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: john Thank you so much. Rick Wilson, what is your 763 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: moment of fuckery? 764 00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 3: My moment of fuckery this week was the entire Maga 765 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 3: media enterprise, from Fox on down to the Jack Psobiac, 766 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 3: Benny Johnson dipshit types, all of them screeching before there 767 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 3: was any information in that the American citizen who was 768 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 3: born in Texas, who was a former US Army member 769 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 3: who conducted the New Orleans bombing across the border an 770 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 3: eagle pass, an y illegal immigrant in the open border 771 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 3: of jew Biden, and it was all a lie. It 772 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 3: was all bs. This counts as my woman of fuckery 773 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: this week because it's so egregious that their reflex action 774 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: in every single thing is always to try to frame 775 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 3: it back into the one thing that unifies all the 776 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 3: Republican Party, and that is this border panic they constantly 777 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 3: engage in. And I thought it it diminished the seriousness 778 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,959 Speaker 3: of the actual crime that was committed by this guy 779 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 3: and diminished the idea that we've got to look in 780 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 3: turn at risks like that, not just imaginary caravans and 781 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 3: imaginary military men crossing the border. 782 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: I know it works with their base, which is why 783 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: they do it, but it's just so crushingly and it's dangerous. 784 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 3: This is a dangerous phenomenon that this guy represents. And 785 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 3: if we treat it like just something so that Fox 786 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 3: News can do another segment on the caravan or what 787 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 3: have you, it cheapens it. It takes away from the 788 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 3: seriousness of it, and it makes us less safe as 789 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 3: a country because we have to face this kind of thing. 790 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 3: It's a real problem. 791 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Rick Wilson, thank you, Molly. 792 00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:38,760 Speaker 3: John Fast thank you as always. 793 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 794 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 795 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 796 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 797 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.