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Speaker 1: Okay, this is Annie and Samantha, and I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to Stephane never told your protection of iHeart Radio. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so at the very beginning here because I have a feeling.

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Speaker 1: But usually when we do these episodes any we get

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Speaker 1: a pretty good response, and you guys really relate to this.

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Speaker 1: So I have to put some disclaimers up in this

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Speaker 1: at the very top. While we were working on this episode,

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Speaker 1: I did have a full breakdown trying to decipher the

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Speaker 1: difference between disassociation and dissociation. So if you can't tell,

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Speaker 1: that's what our episode is about today, women in dissociation.

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Speaker 1: But my pea brain really has a hard time saying

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Speaker 1: the word dissociation, So I don't know why I have

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Speaker 1: used that term always. I've never really used the term

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Speaker 1: dissociation under dissociative um. So please don't judge me and

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Speaker 1: the likelihood of me using it, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: try to correct myself because I know it is the

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Speaker 1: correct way of using it. It's pretty high, so please

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Speaker 1: don't at me or judge me too harshly. Because they

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Speaker 1: are actually synonyms, with dissociate being a more popular word

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Speaker 1: over disassociate as of recently, both have the meaning of

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Speaker 1: quote to remove from or cause to break the association

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Speaker 1: of thank you for your dictionary dot com. However, when

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Speaker 1: it comes to the psychological level, they are not created equal.

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Speaker 1: So this is why I say dissociative. Did you hear me? Struggle?

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Speaker 1: And I really am trying. I'm trying, so please don't

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Speaker 1: count how many times, although now that I've said it,

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Speaker 1: you may actually start counting how many times I do

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Speaker 1: this today. I've done that before. Yeah myself, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of scared to come back. I'm sure Christina

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Speaker 1: is already dreading it. Our amazing producer who's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not to cut this out. So many times you can

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Speaker 1: keep counting so to let us know how many women

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Speaker 1: make an announcement. So what we were talking about is

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Speaker 1: the psychological level. So that term would be the associate,

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Speaker 1: which refers to quote a split within a person's psyche,

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Speaker 1: a defense mechanism used by trauma survivors to remove themselves

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Speaker 1: from a threatening situation within their own minds. Again, I

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Speaker 1: may use the term interchangeably, but will work really hard

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Speaker 1: to use the correct term in relation to our topic.

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Speaker 1: Go ahead and with that out there, because I know

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Speaker 1: people are gonna be like, but you didn't say the

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Speaker 1: right word. I know I'm trying to going to be

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Speaker 1: a struggle, but we're going to do our best. Yes.

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Speaker 1: I actually texted Annie as we were working on this

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Speaker 1: episode because I was like, I just went down and y'all,

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Speaker 1: not only did I go down an our links of

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Speaker 1: the rabbit hole, because I sat here and stared. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't even figure it out because it kept correcting auto

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Speaker 1: correcting me when I was putting disassociation for dissociation and

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Speaker 1: I kept saying, no, there's not enough syllables. Wait, there's

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Speaker 1: not enough letters to be made this word. What is

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Speaker 1: what is happening? Really? I dissociated At that point in time.

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Speaker 1: I had to have my partner come and look at

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Speaker 1: the word for me. I'm like, what is this word? Right?

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Speaker 1: And finally figured it out. But it took me a

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Speaker 1: good hour into this to figure this out. And I

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Speaker 1: finally had a breakdown and sent you this text. Was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, my mind is finally fried. This is

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Speaker 1: the one that did it. But with that, also, we

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Speaker 1: want to put a content warning here. We are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about a bit about trauma, sexual and physical assault,

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Speaker 1: and a childhood abuse as well as abuse in general.

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Speaker 1: So if that's something you don't want to dig too

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Speaker 1: deeply into, you may want to skip this episode for now.

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Speaker 1: Because when it comes to dissociation, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: correlation to other UH diagnosis such as anxiety, depression and PTSD.

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Speaker 1: So if that's something that you're not ready to go through,

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Speaker 1: put a pause on it and come back. But we're

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Speaker 1: not going into specific cases. We're going to just mention

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Speaker 1: studies and what their studies look like. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: it can be. I'm going to put this out here.

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Speaker 1: It can be surprisingly triggering actually because I I knew

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Speaker 1: about this. I thought about it before UH and I

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Speaker 1: found myself like getting upset thinking about it. So just

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Speaker 1: be very careful for sure, especially when you realize that

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Speaker 1: the story is about me. This is definitely oh I

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Speaker 1: I don't want to put that. But yeah, as you

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Speaker 1: like the like we we laughed because you like some

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Speaker 1: dramatic movies to be I'm like, what are you doing

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Speaker 1: to yourself? You're like, but it's got so many emotions,

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Speaker 1: but you love it and I'm on it and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh hell no, I'm good. Why did you do this

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Speaker 1: to me? UH studies like this where I discovered an

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Speaker 1: explanation of what I've done makes me go oh as

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Speaker 1: where other people like, no, this is this to me? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're exactly, but also traumatizing still, but also traumasizing still.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it is good to know, like I found

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Speaker 1: it very It's good information, but it is certainly something

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Speaker 1: where I was just like suddenly crying when I was

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Speaker 1: walking the other day, like, oh my god, what is happening?

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Speaker 1: What is happening? Yes, I get that. Okay. So now

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Speaker 1: that we've given our content warning, we've summarized definition. What

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Speaker 1: exactly is dissociation? Well, according to medicine net dot com,

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Speaker 1: it is a quote perceived detachment of the mind from

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Speaker 1: the emotional state or even from the body. Dissociation is

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Speaker 1: characterized by a sense of the world as a dream

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Speaker 1: like or unreal place, and maybe accompanied by poor memory

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Speaker 1: of specific events. Um, and here's another one from better

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Speaker 1: help dot com. Dissociation is the process whereby an individual

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Speaker 1: feels disconnected or begin to disconnect from their memories, emotions, thoughts, feelings,

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Speaker 1: and even their identity. And if you want it more clinically,

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Speaker 1: which you know we do, here are the four different

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Speaker 1: types of dissociative disorders according to psychiatry dot org. Right,

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Speaker 1: let's start off with Biggie dissociative identity disorder or d

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Speaker 1: i D, which is associated with overwhelming experiences, traumatic events,

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Speaker 1: and or abuse that occurred in childhood. Now, this specific

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Speaker 1: disorder is the more again dramatized one, I guess, and

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Speaker 1: was previously known as multiple personality disorders. And I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of like Crime TV loves to use this

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Speaker 1: um and it is controversial because there's definitely a back

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Speaker 1: and forth about belief and acting. There's a lot of conversation.

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Speaker 1: And some criteria for dis diagnosis from psychiatry dot org

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Speaker 1: include the existence of two or more distinct identities or

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Speaker 1: personality states. The distinct identities are accompanied by changes in behavior, memory,

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Speaker 1: and thinking. The signs and symptoms may be observed by

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Speaker 1: others or reported by the individual, ongoing gaps in memory

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Speaker 1: about everyday events, personal information, and or past traumatic events,

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Speaker 1: and the symptoms cause significant distress or problems in social, occupational,

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Speaker 1: or other areas of functioning. Hello Moon night. Um. And

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Speaker 1: though more women are diagnosed with this disorder than men,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't actually know that until I was researching this,

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Speaker 1: but that may have something to do with how false

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Speaker 1: diagnosis happens with men, and we've talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: um how it might look differently from men, or they

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Speaker 1: may not report all of the symptoms. This might be

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Speaker 1: why the numbers are so drastically higher with women. But

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Speaker 1: we're not going to dig too deep into this specific disorder.

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Speaker 1: Would probably be another episode on its own, because we

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Speaker 1: can talk about specific cases and conversations. Again, though, we

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Speaker 1: are just generically talking about dissociation, so we're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: talking about specifics in itself, but specifically, I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people be like, oh, we're not getting into

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Speaker 1: this one, so yeah, not today, not today, not today.

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Speaker 1: But we do want to talk about the other types

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Speaker 1: of dissociation, including dissociative amnesia and fugue and depersonalization disorder.

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Speaker 1: So dissociative amnesia, and this is coming from NAMMY, our

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Speaker 1: National Alliance of Mental Illness, includes the main symptom of quote,

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Speaker 1: difficulty remembering important information about oneself and may surround a

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Speaker 1: particular event such as combat or abuse. Are more rarely

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Speaker 1: information about identity and life history. And with that quote,

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Speaker 1: there is no average for age, onset or percentage and

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Speaker 1: a person may experience multiple episodes throughout her life, and

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Speaker 1: within this category, there are four different types of amnesia

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Speaker 1: and seeing a pattern. Localized quote for a time has

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Speaker 1: no memory of a traumatic event. Selective, which is when

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Speaker 1: someone has quote patchy or incomplete memories surrounding a traumatic event. Generalized,

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Speaker 1: which refers to when someone has trouble remembering details of

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Speaker 1: their quote entire life. It felt weird to quote. It

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Speaker 1: was a quote, but it felt strange. Systemized, which is

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Speaker 1: when someone has a very specific memory loss, like maybe

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Speaker 1: a person um. And then dissociative fugue, which is also

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Speaker 1: called psychogenic fugue, is from Better Health Quote the person

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Speaker 1: suddenly and without any warning, can't remember who they are

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Speaker 1: and has no memory of their past. They don't realize

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Speaker 1: they're experiencing memory loss and may invent a new identity. Right.

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Speaker 1: I think that's lesser talked about, possibly because it's rare

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Speaker 1: um kind of like this upcoming one that we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about, which is the depersonalization of disorder. Again

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Speaker 1: from NAMI, it says quote involves ongoing feelings of detachment

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Speaker 1: from actions, feelings, thoughts, and sensations, as if they're watching

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Speaker 1: a movie or depersonalization. Sometimes other people and things may

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Speaker 1: feel like people and things in the world around them

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Speaker 1: are unreal, which is also de realization, which is a

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Speaker 1: part of that how it goes interchangeably, A person may

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Speaker 1: experience the personalization, deualization, or both. The average onset age

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Speaker 1: for this it was around age sixteen, uh, though can

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Speaker 1: start much younger, like an early to mid childhood. You

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Speaker 1: don't see this typically for those twenty years and older.

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Speaker 1: The only of the people are diagnosed at the age

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Speaker 1: of twenty or older. So that's definitely seen in younger childhood.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's something to know. Again, Like I said,

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Speaker 1: when we talk about it, this is a little more

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Speaker 1: rare outside of d I D which we talked about earlier. Um,

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Speaker 1: but because of it seemingly happens more likely hit in childhood.

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Speaker 1: As one study puts it, dissociation is a complex trans

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Speaker 1: diagnostic phenomenon which comprises a wide range of symptoms. It

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Speaker 1: is broadly defined as a discontinuity or disruption of usually

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Speaker 1: integrated functions such as consciousness, perception, attention, memory, and identity.

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Speaker 1: Psychological symptoms include subjective detachment from the own person, deep personalization,

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Speaker 1: or the environment de realization, which may be perceived as unreal,

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Speaker 1: blurry movie like, or lacking significance. Memory disruptions can range

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Speaker 1: from a diminished ability to access normally amenable information to

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Speaker 1: dissociative amnesia. Right, So when we were looking into the study,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of variations, so I feel like that

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Speaker 1: should be on a spectrum as well. Um, when we

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Speaker 1: talk about diagnosis, and again we probably need to come back,

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Speaker 1: and we will come back, because I think this is

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Speaker 1: really important talking about the double edged sort of diagnosing someone.

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Speaker 1: It's good and bad, but there's a lot of complications

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Speaker 1: to this specific disorders and the types of disorders because

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Speaker 1: it can be ranging. You can't grow out of it,

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Speaker 1: as some people would say, and you can change, uh,

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Speaker 1: and you can get treatment and it's different. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that one specific paragraph from a study really did

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Speaker 1: kind of put it together, like, Okay, here we are,

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Speaker 1: this is the overarching this is what we're looking at.

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Speaker 1: So it's good to remember that it is kind of

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Speaker 1: level of spectrum of like it can be one of

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Speaker 1: these things, it could be all of these things, and

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Speaker 1: it could be sometimes not all the time. So now

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Speaker 1: let's take a look at how this affects women with trauma,

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Speaker 1: and this is what we're going to focus on, y'all.

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Speaker 1: So what are the correlations of women with trauma and dissociation?

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Speaker 1: As we spoke about a bit earlier, women are more

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Speaker 1: likely to be diagnosed over men. Again, much like many

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Speaker 1: other situations we've talked about in regards to diagnosis, in

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Speaker 1: the accuracies of these studies could be misleading, as many

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Speaker 1: men in these studies either deny their symptoms or misidentify

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Speaker 1: their symptoms, such as instead of nieta or checking out.

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Speaker 1: Men are volatile and angry, so they may black out

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Speaker 1: angry and they misdiagnosed that. And by the way, I've

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Speaker 1: been there to um, so that may be a misdiagnosis

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Speaker 1: of like having rage or just angry issues, alcoholism, all

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Speaker 1: of those things I did. We don't mention it at all,

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Speaker 1: but I will put in here. Um, there wasn't a

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Speaker 1: high correlation of drug use and substance abuse with dissociation,

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Speaker 1: oddly enough, so it wasn't necessarily like they associated and

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Speaker 1: become an alcoholic, you know what I mean. Maybe the

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Speaker 1: other was an outcome due to whatever uh they're using,

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Speaker 1: but that's not necessarily this level of dissociation, so just

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Speaker 1: to put in there, but nonetheless, the difference in the

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Speaker 1: results is pretty significant. According to one study in regards

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Speaker 1: to women and trauma with dissociative disorders, women were twice

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Speaker 1: as likely to achieve high scores on the dissociatives Experienced skill,

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Speaker 1: which was a measurement used in any of the story

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Speaker 1: studies in regards to dissociation and dissociative disorders. And this

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Speaker 1: specific study we're talking about was completed in two thousand

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Speaker 1: five and it was titled Prevalence of the Dissociative Disorders

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Speaker 1: among Women in the general population. And in that same study,

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Speaker 1: quote female to male ratio of nine to one has

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Speaker 1: been reported in a clinical series of dissociative disorders. So

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Speaker 1: that was pretty big numbers. Again, it may have everything

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Speaker 1: to do with that they were looking at specific traumas,

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Speaker 1: but this was in the general population and women in general.

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Speaker 1: So and within that same study, those who were diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with this those of disorders quote reported all types of

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Speaker 1: childhood abuse and neglect more frequently than did non dissociative women.

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Speaker 1: And beyond that, quote, sexual abuse, physical neglect, and emotional

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Speaker 1: abuse predicted a dissociative disorder right, Because dissociation oftentimes is

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Speaker 1: linked with trauma, we see a lot of quote co

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Speaker 1: morbidities such as PTSD and depression. In a study based

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Speaker 1: on rape survivors in South Africa, they looked at the

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Speaker 1: correlation of PTSD and trauma, dissociation and resilience. Within that study,

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Speaker 1: they found quote dissociation following trauma may be used as

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Speaker 1: a coping defense mechanism when confronted with future traumatic events.

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Speaker 1: This suggests that past association e g. Following exposure to

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Speaker 1: childhood trauma can increase the likelihood of a dissociative response

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Speaker 1: with future trauma and dissociation it may become a form

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Speaker 1: of resilience for immediate coping uh And just to know,

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Speaker 1: this study was not necessarily about dissociation as being positive

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Speaker 1: or negative defense mechanism, but more so that it may

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Speaker 1: be a way of predicting PTSD and other disorders and

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Speaker 1: how to build resilience and treatment for survivors. And another

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Speaker 1: interesting and for me, unexpected finding was that they quote

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Speaker 1: did not find a significant relationship between childhood trauma and disassociation,

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Speaker 1: PTSD and depression. This finding is in contrast with the

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Speaker 1: previous findings, so this one was a little different said wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: it may not have anything to do with this, but

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Speaker 1: does go on with a possible explanation, saying, quote, it

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Speaker 1: is possible that the endemic problem of child abuse in

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Speaker 1: South Africa, in the context of daily exposure to violent

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Speaker 1: crime and social economic disadvantage, contribute to building resilience rather

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Speaker 1: than fostering maladaptive coping mechanisms. For example, dissociation resilience may

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Speaker 1: be strengthened by sharing of common traumatic experiences. It's been

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Speaker 1: suggested that childhood trauma survivors develop more effective coping strategies

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Speaker 1: if they successfully resolve and integrate the trauma, leading to

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Speaker 1: greater resilience and a lower risk of developing PTSD. Now

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and put in here. Yes, the study

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Speaker 1: was in South Africa. We're I don't know where they

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Speaker 1: were in South Africa because we know that this seems

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Speaker 1: very like stereotyping of South Africa in some of the comments.

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Speaker 1: This is a funny sifting study, but it may have

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Speaker 1: something to do when they went to the population that

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Speaker 1: had the most trauma to do this study. So I

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Speaker 1: just want to put that in a reminder. Um. But

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Speaker 1: the same thing he does go on to conclude that quote,

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Speaker 1: traumatic dissociation at two weeks post rape was a significant

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Speaker 1: predictor of early PTSD and depression, but not resilience, early

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Speaker 1: childhood trauma or prior dissociation. Dissociation at a specific time

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Speaker 1: point related to specific trauma was therefore predictive of PTSD,

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Speaker 1: s D and depression among female rape survivors, and not

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Speaker 1: childhood traumas or prior tendency to dissociate. So the level

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Speaker 1: is when did it happen? Was it based on child

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Speaker 1: and trauma? Not necessarily, dissociation was a mediator in the

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Speaker 1: relationship between a resilience and PTSD, And these findings highlight

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Speaker 1: the importance of screening for traumatic dissociation and early and

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Speaker 1: intervention among female rape survivors. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversation about Yes, so childhood trauma may not have as

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Speaker 1: much to do with it as much as current levels

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Speaker 1: of the associative disorders that it has happened. So I

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Speaker 1: found that interesting, But a lot of confusion, a lot

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Speaker 1: of in and ounce, a little bit conflicting. One study

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Speaker 1: was two thousand and five, the other study was twenty,

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Speaker 1: but it was in different places. So yeah, questions yeah,

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Speaker 1: questions indeed, and a specific study completed in the US

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Speaker 1: and nine focusing on rape survivors as well, which, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is a bit outdated, so need to be we

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Speaker 1: need to take it with a grain of salt. But

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Speaker 1: there were some things in there we thought were interesting.

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Speaker 1: One is the seven major function of dissociation, which are

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Speaker 1: number one, the automization of certain behaviors to efficiency and

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Speaker 1: economy of effort. Three the resolution of irreconcilable conflicts for

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Speaker 1: escape from constraints of reality UH, five the isolation of

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Speaker 1: catastrophic experiences, six the cathartic discharge of certain feelings, and

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Speaker 1: seven the enhancement of herd sense or the one identity

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Speaker 1: going to a group identity. And to that they added

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Speaker 1: the ability to ignore pain. And specifically, for this study,

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Speaker 1: they wanted to take a deeper look at when victims

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Speaker 1: would make statements like feeling as if they were having

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Speaker 1: an out of body experience UM during their assaults and

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Speaker 1: investigate dissociation for women who have been victims of sexual

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Speaker 1: violence and its relation to PTSD. Unfortunately, though, they were

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Speaker 1: able to look at the correlation of some of the

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Speaker 1: cases of PTSD to dissociation and how to predict and

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Speaker 1: possibly treat PTSD with other comorbidity ease. But due to

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Speaker 1: the type of study being traumatic as well as not

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Speaker 1: getting enough volunteers, they didn't get a lot of information

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Speaker 1: from all of this. Right, So again, this was one

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Speaker 1: of the first studies that happened based on the association

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Speaker 1: trauma and rape survivors. They had very little information, so

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Speaker 1: they put in there the questionnaires that used Obviously that's

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Speaker 1: outdated as well now, um, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: conversations about this. They use the term engender a lot

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Speaker 1: um So there's a lot of different things that happened

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Speaker 1: in the study, but they couldn't get the amount of

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Speaker 1: information they needed to really have a good study. Now,

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, they still pay published like thirty

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Speaker 1: pages worth of conversation and trying to do a scale

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Speaker 1: and trying to do a measurement, and they were able

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Speaker 1: to get a few things here and there, just kind

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Speaker 1: of like overall, uh, conversations, but they weren't getting able

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Speaker 1: to get solid numbers, and I don't think they were

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Speaker 1: comfortable in coming out with results. So they said, this

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Speaker 1: is what can happen, and this is how we can

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Speaker 1: do a better job. In studying it for the future.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's at least that they started somewhere.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it tick to though. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of things, a lot of studies, especially involving women,

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Speaker 1: where I'm like, really, right, interesting, Okay, cool um, And

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Speaker 1: just a reminder, as we are talking in relation to

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Speaker 1: women and trauma, and this can include veterans and combat

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Speaker 1: and soldiers and warriors and those who have gone through like, uh,

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Speaker 1: natural disasters, large disasters, all that, we're not talking about

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Speaker 1: that right now, and we're not trying to exclude them

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Speaker 1: on purpose, but we're just really kind of focusing specific

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Speaker 1: to women's trauma when it comes to things like sexual assault,

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Speaker 1: violence and abuse. Again, we might come back to that,

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Speaker 1: but this is very very specific to this, right, which

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Speaker 1: is why you won't hear us mention it. But just

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Speaker 1: you know, just so you know, we do we are

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Speaker 1: aware that that can be a factor. They do talk

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Speaker 1: about it some, but these are the specific studies that

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Speaker 1: we wanted to look at. And as we were looking

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Speaker 1: into these different studies, we stumbled upon specific triggers or

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Speaker 1: trauma triggers related to dissociation. So we actually got a

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Speaker 1: list from Safe Supportive Learning dot A d dot gov.

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Speaker 1: So we did want to talk about that a little

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Speaker 1: bit because I will say, this is the part that

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Speaker 1: I may have been a little bit triggered by because

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Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's that's familiar with what do

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Speaker 1: with that? But we did want to talk about it

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Speaker 1: because I think it's it's important because we don't always

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Speaker 1: think about the deeper. We just think about a few

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Speaker 1: like this is. Oh, I didn't realize that could be

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Speaker 1: related to this kind of thing, So we wanted to

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Speaker 1: kind of talk about that. UM And according to another

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Speaker 1: case study here, which is what they uses for, we

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Speaker 1: are talking about triggers. So we're talking about quote, sensory

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Speaker 1: stimuli connected with persons trauma and dissociation as an overload response.

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Speaker 1: So some of the triggers may include darkness. Uh so

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Speaker 1: sitting in darkness, specific smells, colors. For me, taste is

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Speaker 1: one of the big ones since of being ignored, which

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Speaker 1: actually as a person who has abandonment issues, it does

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior, loud noises, and again this is kind of

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Speaker 1: combat conversation, like people who have gone through war or

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Speaker 1: been in warlike situations, natural disasters, all of that. UM

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00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: anniversaries even and so much more. Yeah, I'm a big

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00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: anniversary person. And with that, here are some signs of

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Speaker 1: distress and responses. Emotional response like anxiety, fear, helplessness, or anger,

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Speaker 1: Physical such as holding one's breath, headaches, nausea, sweating, stomach aches,

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Speaker 1: behaviorals such as crying, spacing out, being startled, being argumentative,

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Speaker 1: Cognitive such as fragmented memories, forgetfulness, inability to decide, or

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Speaker 1: inability to respond right, And I think like when I

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Speaker 1: talk about inability to decide, that's a huge one. I've

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00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 1: seen people have melt downs because there are scared to

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Speaker 1: death that are going to make a wrong choice. So

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is one of those big was

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Speaker 1: and not realize why it's so bothers them for them. Yeah,

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00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: I agree. And in these triggers and reactions, dissociation helps

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Speaker 1: to hide feelings and reactions as you mentioned earlier, and

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Speaker 1: can look like someone who has just sponing some thing

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00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 1: so they don't have to deal with the feelings or

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00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: emotions to Also, being completely non responsive and when used

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00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: in the short term, can be helpful and even can

395
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: help react efficiently under stress or threat, but the overall response,

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00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: if constant, can cause people to detach or even harden

397
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Speaker 1: their emotions and be unable to connect with people. Right,

398
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 1: And we are talking so much about this, and again

399
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 1: we came into this, uh talking having a moment as

400
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 1: a you and I any about something that we were like, oh,

401
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: this is a bigger conversation about our trauma and then

402
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 1: go back to our trauma series where it all began. Um.

403
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: But you can hear what we're talking about and some

404
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: of the experiences that we went through and realizing what

405
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: this is and what this was. And I actually had

406
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 1: a moment with my therapist that got a new therapists

407
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told you this yet who

408
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: is more in line to my transracial adoption issues as

409
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: well as identity, which is wonderful. But she did have

410
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: a moment asked me do you dissociate? And my ommuniates no,

411
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: not really um. But then as she's asking me how

412
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: I react to so, I had a panic attack. A

413
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: lot of life changes is happening for me right now,

414
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: and I had a panic attack in that moment, uh,

415
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 1: feeling unsteady, and I was like, She's like, what do

416
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 1: you do? And in order to not go into the

417
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 1: full blown panic attack, and I say, we'll have to

418
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: do a B, C and D, which includes meat laying

419
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: down and or stopping and just putting my like distracting

420
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: myself from that moment um and realizing when I was uh,

421
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: when I do have full blown panic attacks, which I

422
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: did not realize. In my anxiety, I go blurry and

423
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: I fade and I can't hear people like everything, Like

424
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: she asked me, what happens, everything kind of goes out

425
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: and that blurry feeling of like I'm not actually here

426
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: and can't be present is very real. And I was like, oh,

427
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: that's association. Big a realization that I really didn't think

428
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,719
Speaker 1: that was something that I did, but it is one

429
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 1: of my trauma responses in which I was like, Okay,

430
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: there's one. I talked about the fact that I have

431
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: when I get so stressed out and overwhelmed, I don't

432
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: remember and sometimes I get cruel. So this angry this

433
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: is what I talked about. When I get angry and cruel,

434
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: I don't realize that I've said things out loud. I've

435
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: actually been called out by a friend who was like,

436
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 1: so can we talk about the other day And I

437
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: was like, what are you talking about? She's like, you

438
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: said this to me. I was like, no, I didn't.

439
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: I was like, and I had to admit I thought it,

440
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: but I would never say that out loud, and she

441
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: was like, you did. And I literally cannot place that conversation.

442
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 1: I don't know where we were, I don't know what happened,

443
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 1: and I had of course, it came back with a

444
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: profuse I am so sorry because obviously if she she

445
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: can't read my mind, I had to have said it

446
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: out loud, so I had to profusely or apologize. But

447
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: having that moment of like, wow, oh wow, I was

448
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: trying to cut you out, like not purposely, but because

449
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: we were getting We're close, and sometimes I have a

450
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 1: panic moment when I get too close to people that

451
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa that was I'm so sorry. I

452
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: did not mean it was very cruel and I'm so

453
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: sorry I said that out loud to you, which, of course,

454
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 1: like we were able to bypass if I thought it.

455
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: But but there were so many moments of realizing I

456
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: actually do this, and I didn't realize and I would

457
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: never because in my head, dissociation is such a bigger

458
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: category like the D I d S what I think

459
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: of or completely blacking out or or moon night, like

460
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I would have associate that with. But

461
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: that level of trauma was like oh, and also I

462
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: could see it in other people because this is how

463
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: it began because I kind of said that to you.

464
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you dissociate and you were like what, Yeah,

465
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: I guess and I was like, you did. I'm sorry.

466
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: Can we do this into that episode pretty much back?

467
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, having a moment like it happens to me too?

468
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: And then where do we look at this list of

469
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: triggers and reactions? And in here um for anyone who

470
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: actually wants this link or goes to find this link,

471
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: just so you know, there is a descriptor at the

472
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: bottom of a case study of a sexual assault UH

473
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: and a child abuse UH survivor. So that might be

474
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 1: triggering and you might not want to read into that,

475
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: but it does kind of have a breakdown about how

476
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: she reacts to UH what how that it is explained

477
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: as dissociative, but it really was so similar to like

478
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: I do that. I do that the whole headaches, the

479
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: holding of my breath. I don't realize to do it

480
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: until I can't. I'm like, oh, what's just happened? Until

481
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: I'm almost con um or that's a reaction to a trigger.

482
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: As well as I have fragmented memories of my childhood,

483
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: I have, I completely dissociate, I cannot remember. Of course,

484
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: I may have something to do with the fact that

485
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: a lot of our childhood memories not do our correlated

486
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: with what we remember, but what people tell us to

487
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: which those pictures and celebrations, and do you remember this

488
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: so it keeps it in your mind. I don't have

489
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: that because I don't have any connection to anyone, uh,

490
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: when I was seven or younger. But that tells me

491
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: a lot and that I honestly can't remember anything, like

492
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: I can't remember people. I can't remember, not even just

493
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: remember faces, but the existence of people or the existence

494
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: of time. I can't tell you other than like the

495
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: fogginess of it all. But there's a lot of things

496
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: that made me go, huh, okay, I guess if we

497
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: really were to look at the textbook, but which which

498
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: is what we're looking at? Research of it? I have

499
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: a sort of associative disorder in that realm? Now is it?

500
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 1: Could I be necessarily diagnosed with that? Right now? I

501
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: don't know, because I've not had quote unquote episodes of

502
00:28:52,600 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: anything or symptoms of it anything recently. Yeah. I mean

503
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I was like you where I had

504
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: sort of the bigger image that we see in media

505
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: of what this is. But it was one of those

506
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: things where I was reading over this and I was like, Okay,

507
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: well then I've already talked about this on the show.

508
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: Because that's how like my memories. When I read that

509
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: fiction story of like the knocking on the door, I

510
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: literally created another version of me where that didn't happen,

511
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: and I became so destabilized when my mom mentioned in

512
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: passing something that threatened that false reality that I had created,

513
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: right that it's like I don't even remember how I

514
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: got home when she after she said that, I just

515
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: was like I stopped and then hours passed like I

516
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: don't And so I definitely created the things. If I

517
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: try to remember, because this was like my traumatic period

518
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: in high school, I created this version where that didn't happen.

519
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: If I try to remember what actually did happen, it's

520
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: like someone slams the door and it goes dark, Like

521
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: my brain is like, no, we're not going to think

522
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: about that we're never going to think about that, and

523
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: I don't know why you want to be right, And

524
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: that's been my one of my biggest things in therapy

525
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: is I'm avoiding it in therapy, but every time, like

526
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: we try to do it, my brain is like, no,

527
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: we're not doing this, and it's become really I'm kind

528
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: of going through a similar destabilizing period right now where

529
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm like questioning the everything I've thought to be true

530
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: and whether or not it's true. And that actually started

531
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the pandemic because a good friend

532
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: of ours I told him we were having like a

533
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: very heart to heart moment and I told him like,

534
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: I'm worried. I'm worried everything I think is false and

535
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 1: everything I am as false, and that that's what people

536
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: are going to remember is that I was just fake

537
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: because I have these memories that I know aren't true,

538
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: and I have other memories I can't remember, So it

539
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: just it gives it it's very hard to convince yourself

540
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: of like the truth, and that can become very important,

541
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: um because memories can get really messy. But he wrote

542
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: very kind. It sounds messed up, but he wrote a

543
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: very nice you as I did, I was, well, no,

544
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: I was just kind of saying, like what old people saying.

545
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: My eulogenie was like, here's so it's not just like

546
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: you're dead. But no, yeah, I think this is a

547
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: conversation where I feel the same way about my childhood.

548
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: I am petrified because the things that I feel like

549
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: I do remember I may have made up because I

550
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: don't know for sure. There's not no evidence outside of

551
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: my triggers, my reactions to things, my body just being

552
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: like nope, that made me think this had to have happened,

553
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: because these are the memberies that have and this is

554
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: how my body reacts to Therefore, but I don't want

555
00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: to say that loud because I maybe lying and people

556
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: are not gonna believe me, and so I I lessen

557
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: it in order to nonsensationalize it. And I don't want

558
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: to be called a liar and that couldn't have happened

559
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: type of conversation. But like, but these are the things

560
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: that I remember. This is the reason why that the evidence. Honestly,

561
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: one of the biggest triggers that I've had studying social

562
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: work is when we talked about reactions and types of

563
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: diagnosis and types of symptoms essentially, or or statements that

564
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: are like yeah, you maybe these are things me having

565
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: that is that's me. And so having those moments, having

566
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 1: that moment like did this happen to me type of

567
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: conversation because I can't remember it. I just know it

568
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: was traumatic, and it was traumatic enough that I shut

569
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: it down. I cannot remember except for two things to

570
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: a few things here and there that I shut it

571
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: down so hard. Um, but I can tell you, like

572
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: moments of feeling a man's gaze on me made me sick,

573
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: uh and nauseous, like just staring looking at me maybe not,

574
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: but then also feeling like they didn't want me like that,

575
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: Like even when I talk about it, I get to

576
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: you like just saying someone they don't actually want me

577
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: to be here, I don't belong has been something that

578
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: triggers me. And there's no necessarily like obviously I have

579
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: abandonment issues. I was left in an orphanage, so so

580
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: many layers to that, but there's so many moments that

581
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm like, but was it true? Was it as bad

582
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: as I thought? Type of conversation in my head Because

583
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: also there's a part of me that has that defensive

584
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 1: of like I don't need to remember my body, my mind,

585
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: my body shut it down for a reason. Let's leave

586
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: it there. Yep, right, yeah, yeah, I I feel like mine.

587
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: I mean again, we're seeing all these kind of media representations.

588
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: I definitely have like the movie remember, I remember the

589
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: things I can remember from a third person, right, and

590
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: she feels like a different person to me, which is

591
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: part of why I created that story. But it is

592
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: like it's the slamming of the door. I feel like

593
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: I have the memories of my brain is like, we're

594
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: not going in that door. We are not going in

595
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: there is bad news is And then I definitely had

596
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: like the blacking out I had when I was kind

597
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: of at the height of this, a friend of mine

598
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 1: pulled my ponytail. I don't know what happened, but I

599
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: got like sent to the princip's principal's office. I was

600
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: blacked out. Um, and so a lot of this, yeah,

601
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: I was just connecting to. And then another thing when

602
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: I was I was taking my morning walk, I had

603
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: just watched the newest episode of Moon Night, which I'm

604
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: not even talking about the whole thing that's going on there.

605
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the abuse that happened, um, and I

606
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: started crying, and I was like, what if there can

607
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: be no Sinnaben role? What if everyone's right? Oh my god.

608
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: But that was a big thing for me, was the fictional.

609
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: I would just kind of sit in my room and think.

610
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: And I know you all have heard this, You've heard

611
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: me talk about this on the show, where it was

612
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: just like I had to believe these things. I had

613
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: to believe someone could go through this and come out

614
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: the other side. Um. And that was a big it's

615
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: it's it sounds so silly and I feel ridiculous, but

616
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: that's I gotta said about this kind of like fiction

617
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: all idea, because that's how that's another way I would

618
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: do it, was I would be this person and that

619
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: helped me feel like I had worth, um because I

620
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: believe that they did. And that's the problem is that

621
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: we fight with ourselves and it from where I'm hearing

622
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: you that that's not ridiculous, that makes absolute sense. And

623
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: it is a moment of like warning and processing that

624
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: like if this is not true, then this is the

625
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: correlation for me, right right? Um, And I think so

626
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: many things that I'm hearing you say, and I'm hearing

627
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: myself say is something that we hear in this conversation

628
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 1: of sexual assault and sexual trauma. And I'm not saying

629
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: like it's not true at all because we're speaking honestly,

630
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: but of the like kind of it couldn't be that bad,

631
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: or what if people don't believe me? Like we're saying

632
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of stuff, um, which is

633
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: a setting, but that is how I felt like. I

634
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: just I also thought like, there's no evidence of a

635
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: lot of this, so what if my mind just the

636
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: one I said? Fun, like you start questioning yourself, right, um,

637
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: even though they feel so true and you have those

638
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 1: embody like emotional physical reactions, right, And that's exactly That's

639
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: the thing, is like we can't control any of that,

640
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: m h. And why would I why would we want? Right?

641
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,240
Speaker 1: I've had the moments where I've had to prepare people,

642
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: so as I'm diving into my for me, my career

643
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: and identity trying to kind of figure some things out. Again,

644
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: my experience is a little different from some Like I know,

645
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: a lot of adoptees were brought here as infants, so

646
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily know the association to or have an

647
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: association to Korean flavors and like they have never tasted it,

648
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: they've never remember they wouldn't remember it necessarily. Um. Again,

649
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: there are several who have they were older. For me, UM,

650
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: I have memories and taste and smell is such a

651
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: trigger to me that as I'm trying this process, I

652
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: had to wait till almost late I mean in late thirties,

653
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: early forties for me to even be like I can

654
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 1: do this. But I still come to the point of

655
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: telling people, hey, this might happen to me as I'm

656
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: preparing them, Like I might have a triggered moment, and

657
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: I might just associate now that I know, like I

658
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: might associate whether it's for me like just fogging and

659
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: literally blanking and becoming unresponsive, which is what happens with

660
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: the panic attack. I've become unresponsible, also can't breathe, but

661
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: those are two different things. But I still don't remember

662
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: what happens in that moment. Everything becomes foggy. Um. This

663
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: is that same level ish where I have a react

664
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: of visceral reaction that I can't control. UM. But I

665
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 1: want to have those moments and try to find the

666
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: good of it and reredo redo those moments and and

667
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: enjoy it and it's not necessarily bad, but it just

668
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: brings me back to a place that I felt unsafe

669
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: even I can't tell you why. But yeah, there's so

670
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: many things. And again, this is why I want to

671
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: talk about it, because I also think this battle we

672
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 1: have in ourselves and recognizing some of these things, we

673
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it as if we're victims.

674
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 1: But it's also kind of a relief to know that, Okay,

675
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: there's a name for this um what I want to

676
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: be identified the associative disorder. No, because some would be like,

677
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: do you have fifteen personalities? Which one are you now?

678
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: Because that's the one we think of oftentimes even those

679
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: the least likely. Honestly, like, there's not too many cases.

680
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 1: There are, don't get me wrong, but they're still It's

681
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: like it's not as common as people wanted me to

682
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,400
Speaker 1: get out to be, which is also why maybe this

683
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: sensationalized because it is so different. But I think it's

684
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: fascinating to talk about it because it does affect so

685
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: many women dealing with daily life, dealing with relationships, like

686
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: trying to be in dating and thinking that this is

687
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 1: the normal, that's all they have to do and then

688
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: therefore if they don't love every part of it, then

689
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: there's something wrong. Um, and there are reasons but to

690
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 1: this and for me, actually, I would use this what

691
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: I would do as me saying I have this is

692
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: my survivors instate, this is my you know, survivor mechanism,

693
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: like this is what I have to do in order

694
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: to survive. It's hard for me to let go of. Yeah,

695
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,959
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean that's probably what I would have

696
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: before we did this and I knew what it was,

697
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 1: I would have said that because it was something my brain,

698
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: my brain and my body just did because I I

699
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 1: mean that sounds terrible, but essentially like it was like no, you,

700
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: we don't you. You are going to break completely now

701
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 1: and if we think about this, we're just not gonna

702
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: think about it, right, And that's how I survived, right,

703
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 1: And that's kind of the level of the psyche for

704
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,959
Speaker 1: any associative disorders, is that kind of like I can't

705
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: handle this trauma right now. So this is what my

706
00:39:58,120 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: body is going to do. This is what my mind's

707
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: gonna do, This is what my mental health is gonna do.

708
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: This is my psyche what it's gonna do. Whether it's

709
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: to do the extreme of having four different people inside

710
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: of me or just forgetting it, just forgetting um and

711
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: hopes that I'd never have to dig it up again.

712
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: But it always talks to you, obviously, because there's still

713
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: triggers there. Um And And though we are talking about

714
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 1: sexual trauma and abuse, I did kind of want to

715
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: mention also attachment theories there. And we talked about attachments

716
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,760
Speaker 1: before women attachment issues. We've also talked about parentification before

717
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: and this is all correlated. Um. There is another study

718
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: that was titled the Associative Experiences of Women Child Abuse Survivors,

719
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: and it actually goes into this whole conversation about the

720
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 1: different experiences for young for women who had again child abuse, UH,

721
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: whether it's emotional abuse, whether it's physical, whether it's sexual.

722
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: They talk about the level of how attachment, because we've

723
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: talked about the results of how you react or attached

724
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: to people has a lot to do with how you

725
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: interact or what has happened in your childhood and who

726
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: you trust and who you can see is safe and secure.

727
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: Part of that attachment level in our conversations before, but

728
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: how that correlates was the dissociated especially when it becomes

729
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: one extreme of another. And one of the big things

730
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: I talked about, which we mentioned earlier, was emotional abuse

731
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: and emotional neglect and neglect in general, so not even

732
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: the physical or sexual abuse where it's all physical, just

733
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: the mental abuse in itself can cause dissociative disorders or

734
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 1: diagnosis or symptoms as well. And something to remember because

735
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: again we do talk about the extreme levels of the

736
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: movie Sibyl was based on a pretty severe sexual abuse

737
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: physical abuse case way back when, and it became a

738
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: huge kind of beginning in this conversation, and that's what

739
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 1: we think of and not that this doesn't happen, it

740
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: absolutely does. But when we talk about emotional abuse, when

741
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: we talk about attachment theory and attachment issues, this can

742
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: be going. This can go hand in hand. And that's

743
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: what we want to recognize. That it's not what you think.

744
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: It's not abnormal, it's not necessarily that it's detrimental. It

745
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: is that it exists, and what you are doing is

746
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: something that's trying to protect yourself. You already knew this,

747
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 1: we said you said that just now, even before we

748
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: talked about what dissociative disorder was, and it's many symptoms

749
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: or diagnosis. You were like, this is my self defense mechanism,

750
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: and that's what we call it. But in but in reality,

751
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: this is kind of that level of trauma that has

752
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: a lot taught us to cope this way. Is it

753
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: help always help me? No? Can we talk about the

754
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: fact that it can be debilitating, yes, but does it

755
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: exist yes? And can we talk about the fact that

756
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,959
Speaker 1: attachment theories when extreme neglect or extreme abuse or pronification

757
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: where the expectation is laid upon a child to raise

758
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,720
Speaker 1: the parent, or raise other kids, or become the parent

759
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: in the family, it can cause a lot of trauma. Again,

760
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,439
Speaker 1: we talked about that earlier, and I think it's something

761
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: to know that these studies are talking about why this

762
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,759
Speaker 1: can be a problematic and how this can occur. So

763
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: it is a result of and not necessarily something that

764
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: you're born with necessarily, which I don't know if that's

765
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: There's so many things to that we know when it

766
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: kind of diagnosis, it's like trauma versus biology. So but

767
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: some people are more susceptible. We know that this is

768
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: This is the thing about these types of disorders and diagnosis.

769
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 1: It's complicated, and it's called conversation that can go in

770
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: too many directions. It can, And before we get into

771
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: our final direction, I actually want to make a very

772
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: strange note. I just realized some people might be listening

773
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: to this show for the first time because you're interested

774
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: in this topic. If you didn't know, a cinnamon roll

775
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: is a trope about a character it was very sweet,

776
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: very pure. They go through a lot of trauma but

777
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: are just like sweethearts. Right, So if you're listening to

778
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: this and you're like, another thing to add is one

779
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: of Annie's way of of distancing herself and just kind

780
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: of giving herself self care. Fan fiction it is her love, right,

781
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely. I wrote so much fan faure the last

782
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: night I needed to go to sleep, but I had

783
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: an idea which we love, which we love for her sleep. Okay, yes,

784
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: all right. I just wanted to make that note for

785
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: anyone who was listening to that very serious to stop you,

786
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: to remind you that the people who listening to this

787
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: one may not be listening to the versa. So but

788
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: love this is my favorite trope. Yeah all right. Yeah.

789
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: We had a recent review. Someone was like, I love

790
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: Annie's love for all these nerd things, and I love

791
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: Smith this love for social justice and social She was like,

792
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm the boring one here. But moving on, So as

793
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: we're talking about TRABA, let's kind of come out of it.

794
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about dissociatives, disorders, dissociation and today

795
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: because there's been some things that's been talked about again,

796
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: social media has kind of made things rampant. We use

797
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 1: words like impaths, and we use dissociate or disassociate as

798
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: we like to say, because I all, I'm sure Christina

799
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: has made it sound wonderful, but many times we've had

800
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: to go back and forth on that word has been

801
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: a lot, a lot. I was gonna say, Christina fort

802
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: at the end, you just want to put a supercut

803
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: of us cursing, trying to figure out the right word.

804
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: Go ahead, or you can just make a little announcement

805
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: how many times we messed up. So recently in twenty nineteen,

806
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: there was a whole new phenomenon in which a bus

807
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: State article came out titled the smartest women I Know

808
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: are all dissociating um and it was written by emm

809
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: Align Klein and which she kind of talks about the

810
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: phenomenon Fleetbag, which was a huge hit. I've never watched

811
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: this show. Have you ever watched this show? Did you

812
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: like it? Yeah? I did? Okay, would you recommend for

813
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: me and watch it? Or that? Just all cringe and

814
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to ignore it. Um, I'll have to.

815
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: I'll get back to you on that way. I think

816
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: probably ignore it for you. But yeah, it's very good.

817
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:24,399
Speaker 1: I like right. So Caroline from Unladylife, former co host

818
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: of Stuff I've Never Told You, she loved it, as

819
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 1: well as so many others. The show Girls was also

820
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: mentioned in this article, and she kind of talks about

821
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: a new term she has created, which is dissociative feminism,

822
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: in which she states is quote simply refuses sustenance and

823
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: lives sometimes within and sometimes outside the craggy body society adores,

824
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 1: subsisting on miss lustful gazes and other women's jealous ones.

825
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: So essentially the cool girl. We've talked about the types

826
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 1: of girls in movies and or stereotypes. She's talking about

827
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: the new form of the cool girl, in which she

828
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: referenced fleabag, the main character who just kind of goes

829
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: with the flow, does whatever, may make a comment about it,

830
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 1: but essentially just does what it is to appease men

831
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: or to appease that nature, whether it's body dysmorphia, whether

832
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 1: it's drinking in order to forget, or whether having sex

833
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,479
Speaker 1: and then just zoning out in that sex like which

834
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: is a whole other conversation we've had about enthusiastic consent

835
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: and this would be the opposite of it and what

836
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: women will do. So she has this whole article about

837
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: women are dissociating now in this way from feminism. So

838
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting, and I was like, I don't,

839
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 1: I don't really, I don't really know if I understand

840
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: this article any that you had a chance to read it,

841
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 1: What did you think explain to me what I'm missing

842
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: on this one? Okay, So I think that as someone

843
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: who has seemed flee back, I think the points she

844
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: was trying, well, the point they were trying to make

845
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: with this article is that kind of this nihilistic attitude

846
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: is a response and method of dissociating in a society

847
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 1: where there's so much misogyny and patriarchy and all this

848
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: toxic stuff. There's a whole scene, there's a really moving

849
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,239
Speaker 1: scene because basically what happens is, like Phoebe bridget Wall

850
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: Fleabag is playing with the fourth Wallly. She'll look at

851
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 1: you and say something um and then turn back, and

852
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: then that's sort of the uh in quotes association she's

853
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: talking about, I think UM. And then at the end

854
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 1: there's a very powerful moment where she's like, no more,

855
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this anymore. But she has

856
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: this conversation where essentially she's talking to this guy that

857
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 1: she wants to date that she might actually love, and

858
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: she says something along the lines of like I want

859
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: agency until I just don't want it anymore. Like I

860
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: can't take is too much. It's too much to have

861
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: this weight. I want someone to make the choices. I

862
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: want someone to do this. Um. I personally, when I

863
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 1: read it, like, I mean, maybe maybe I could see

864
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: it being dissociation, but it was more like the we've

865
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: talked about this to this sort of glorification of like

866
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: self destruction and these sort of self destructive characters. I'm

867
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: not saying like everything she did with self destructive, but

868
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 1: a lot of it was a lot of self destructive,

869
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 1: and I think that's different than dissociation. Right, So essentially

870
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: what we're talking about nihilism versus dissociation, I personally think,

871
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: so I think we're talking about like she maybe it's

872
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: kind of like throwing up her hands. I'm just going

873
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: to get into fights and drink a lot because this

874
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: world sucks, versus like actually dissociating. Okay, all right, so

875
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: this is okay. So soon after, I guess maybe people

876
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: had questions like me, because I've never seen the show necessarily,

877
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 1: so I don't quite understand. I get the premise of

878
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: it essentially was like self de ricating humor in order

879
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: to figure out oneself, and that's typically through a relationship

880
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: and or relationships, so I assumed it was something like that.

881
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: Girls kind of seemingly was along the same lines, except

882
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: a destruction of friendship. A destruction of friendship as well,

883
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: which maybe I've never seen anither one of these shows. No,

884
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: neither one of the shows I have ever really kind

885
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 1: of like interested me. However, like I said, I think,

886
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 1: because yeah, I would as a person who was researching

887
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: these things, and we talked about these things and saw

888
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: the bigger like D I D level of dissociation, it

889
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: didn't make sense, like that's not the same thing, and

890
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 1: we're not the only ones. There was another article written

891
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: advice by Kate Mooney, who counters some of the points

892
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: made in buzz Feed article, but again kind of like

893
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: us trying to remind everyone what dissociation actually is, and

894
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: she was like, there's a difference. At one point she

895
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: talks about being a difference between zoning out and giving

896
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 1: up versus dissociating um, And she writes in her article, quote,

897
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: according to Bethany Brand, a clinical psychologist and expert in

898
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: trauma and dissociative disorders, quote, all of us dissociate to

899
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: some extent, so it's not too often. The problem, she said,

900
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: is that there's a confusion over what that means, even

901
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: among psychologists. Again, this is where I kind of come

902
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,520
Speaker 1: back to the whole level. But it needs to be

903
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: a spectrum. But it feels like dissociating. It's not necessarily

904
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: a choice but a response. Right. That's yeah, that's kind

905
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: of been my vibus. It's your body being like nope yea,

906
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: which I just remembered one time somebody somebody kissed me

907
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: and I just like collapse and I was like a

908
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:46,319
Speaker 1: dead body. I know, I couldn't moved wo okay, So yeah,

909
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: so I just used the terms zowed down again, and

910
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: that's not the same thing as what you're talking about,

911
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: because I'd like this, I do not want this. That's

912
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: not I think it could be a form of I

913
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: guess this might be a disassociate eight. This might be

914
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: where the term disassociate comes in. Maybe she should have

915
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: said disassociative feminism is that dissociative? Maybe we just found

916
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,839
Speaker 1: a solution here at the end of all of this.

917
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: I found that interesting and her Mooney's article, I felt

918
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: like that a good point in reminding this is a

919
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: bigger picture than you think. Right. So Mooney goes on

920
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: to say, quote, dissociative symptoms often accompany anxiety disorders. During

921
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 1: panic attacks, people may experience de realization, or the world

922
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: around them appears foggy or surreal. The most severe expressions

923
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: of dissociation stem from trauma. Victims of sexual assault might

924
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: have an out of body experience and see themselves in

925
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: the corner of the room or floating above themselves, either

926
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: during the assault or when we're calling it later. Children

927
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: who experience abuse learn to numb themselves emotionally and physically

928
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 1: to block out painful memories, essentially to survive what's happening

929
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: to them. Brand explained. Dissociation may develop as an adaptive

930
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,399
Speaker 1: technique to cope with severe distress, but can also become

931
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: a conditioned habit that can carry with them into adulthood,

932
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,640
Speaker 1: where it can present a wide range of problems, from

933
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 1: difficulty staying present enough to function on a daily basis

934
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: to an inability to truly experience one's emotions right now. Good.

935
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: She does say that it could be a habit, so

936
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: there's an overlapping, but I think using it in the

937
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: term that Klein used, it could be a disservice in

938
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: when we're talking about dissociating again, I think we should

939
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:32,880
Speaker 1: say disassociating for that one, because I found I found

940
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 1: a way. But all these conversations did bring to light

941
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: like what is happening today? How do we look at it?

942
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: What do we look at And I'm honestly interested in

943
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: car of course we don't have to study about because

944
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: I was trying to find dissociative behaviors with the pandemic

945
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: and quarantine, because that has brought out of a whole

946
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: new level and not just zoning out, not just being distracted,

947
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: but truly dissociating, and maybe we can find it if

948
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 1: y'all have know anything about it, maybe someone has talked

949
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,080
Speaker 1: about it during their therapy session, please let us know.

950
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: But we didn't want to end with that, although that

951
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 1: again kind of a big conversation, but we didn't want

952
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: to talk about possible treatments for it. And again, this

953
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: is one of those that has to be something that

954
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: should be professionally talked about, whether it's through UH, a therapist,

955
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,640
Speaker 1: a doctor, even maybe being able to see someone on

956
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: the professional level. But once some of the treatments that

957
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 1: they said UH could be of help is psychotherapy or

958
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: talk therapy, stress management maybe. And I can see that

959
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: the panic attacks that I was talking about, I had

960
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: to find a way to calm my triggers, so I

961
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 1: don't get into that state of being looking at treatment

962
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,479
Speaker 1: of other disorders. So when we're talking about the quote

963
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: comorbidities such as anxiety depression PTSD, those could be underlying

964
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: ways of treating dissociative behaviors and dissociative diagnosis and symptoms

965
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: as well. Again, you wouldn't want to talk to a

966
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: professional about this. Some things that may help that go

967
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: beyond that is having just a safe environment, which owns easy.

968
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: But I know it's hard. It's hard to find that. Again.

969
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I've found that completely, but

970
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,759
Speaker 1: I found more ways of finding that for myself at

971
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: age forty, late thirties, and that could include getting away

972
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: from your family, no contact, or staying away from situations

973
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: that you know can cause you that level of stress

974
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: or triggers. I stayed away from Korean culture for a

975
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 1: while because of my fears of that of the trauma. Um. Yeah,

976
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 1: so some ways to looking again. Talk to people if

977
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity to get to a therapist or

978
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: psychiatrist is a great thing to do. And just a

979
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: reminder that yeah, you're not alone as what you are

980
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 1: telling our stories. It's more common than you know. Uh,

981
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: but it definitely should be talked about more. Yeah, clearly

982
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: a lot of confusion around it, as we've explained throughout.

983
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's what we have to say about

984
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 1: it for now. Um, if there are any listeners, if

985
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts or experiences, any resources we should

986
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: look at, any halucidations, please let us know our emails.

987
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: Stephanite your mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You

988
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or

989
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as

990
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 1: always to our super producer Chris Data. Bet she's probably

991
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: just associating herself from us right now, oh no. And

992
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You

993
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: this production to I Heart Radio for more Podcast in

994
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: My Heart, Radiovia Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you

995
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,160
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,