1
00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,880
Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. My guest today is one

2
00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,879
Speaker 1: of the most important voices in law enforcement and policing

3
00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,240
Speaker 1: in the last fifty years in the United States. So

4
00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:16,520
Speaker 1: let me say also probably the most innovative single person

5
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,079
Speaker 1: in dealing with the question of having a safe community.

6
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,800
Speaker 1: Bill Bratton served as chief of the Los Angeles Police Department,

7
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 1: Chief of the New York City Transit Police, Commissioner of

8
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 1: the Boston Police Department, and the New York City Police

9
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,000
Speaker 1: Department in both nineteen ninety four twenty fourteen. Everywhere that

10
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,640
Speaker 1: Bratton went, he slashed crime rates and professionalized policing. He

11
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,960
Speaker 1: and his team created the revolutionary program Compstack, the big

12
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,080
Speaker 1: bang of modern data driven policing. But his career has

13
00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 1: not been without controversy, and central to the reckoning of

14
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,360
Speaker 1: his new book, The Profession is the fundamental crisis of

15
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,360
Speaker 1: relations between the black community and law enforcement, a crisis

16
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:03,440
Speaker 1: he now has been inflamed by the unforeseen consequences of

17
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,759
Speaker 1: some well intentioned policies. Building trust between a police force

18
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,360
Speaker 1: and the community is sworn to protect is in many ways,

19
00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,959
Speaker 1: brad and argues, without genuine trust in law enforcement to

20
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,680
Speaker 1: do what is right, little else is possible. Having watched

21
00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,760
Speaker 1: him I work over the years and had the proud

22
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,440
Speaker 1: of being his guest in Los Angeles, I cannot tell

23
00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,279
Speaker 1: you how pleased I am to welcome my guests. Bill Broughton.

24
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,559
Speaker 1: Here's a new book, The Profession, a memoir of community,

25
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: race and the art of policing in America. It's out

26
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,600
Speaker 1: now and I recommend it very highly to everyone who's

27
00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 1: concerned about how we get back to safe communities. Thank

28
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 1: you for joining me in. First, I want to say

29
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 1: I don't know very many people who have devoted their

30
00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: entire lives to law enforcement the way you have. But

31
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: since Veteran's Days this week, I want to just acknowledge

32
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 1: that before you became a police officer in Boston, you

33
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,960
Speaker 1: served in Vietnam, and I want to thank you for

34
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 1: your service to our country. I will give you a

35
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,560
Speaker 1: chance to say a few words to your fellow veterans

36
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,000
Speaker 1: once very appropriate, as we're taping this for a Veteran's Day.

37
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: I'm very proud to be a veteran. I'm very proud

38
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,639
Speaker 1: to have served in the Vietnam War era. It was

39
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: part of my maturing process and helped to prepare me

40
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 1: for the churno war I found in America when I

41
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,400
Speaker 1: came back. We think we're in tough times now that

42
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,080
Speaker 1: people senn't forget what the early seventies were like. I

43
00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: joined the regular Army. I was not a draftee, and

44
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,440
Speaker 1: so I ended up doing an extra year in the

45
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,880
Speaker 1: regular Army. But it was a life shaping experience for me,

46
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,760
Speaker 1: and one that I don't regret. During the three years

47
00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: they were serving, I had some regrets. I would have

48
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,080
Speaker 1: liked to have been back home during portions of it,

49
00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 1: but looking back, it really helped to provide a foundation

50
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: for me. Were the lessons you learned in Vietnam that

51
00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,919
Speaker 1: you carried back into your future decisions in your future life?

52
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: Certainly where several importance of leadership. I worked for some

53
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: very good leaders, I worked for some awful leaders And

54
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,880
Speaker 1: the importance of teamwork. The military is all about teamwork, collaboration.

55
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,639
Speaker 1: Whether you're in a squad or a platoon, your success

56
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 1: is not based on the singular action. It's based on

57
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 1: the collective action. And also, at a time of great

58
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,440
Speaker 1: and growing racial turmoil back in America, the military I

59
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,360
Speaker 1: served in was racially mixed. That some of my first

60
00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,720
Speaker 1: exposure in a significant way to African Americans. Latinos was

61
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,680
Speaker 1: my military experience, and in Boston, I'd grown up and

62
00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,400
Speaker 1: what was a very segregated northern city and had a

63
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,880
Speaker 1: couple of colleagues in high school, but very little interaction

64
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 1: with minorities. That helped to shape my first police experience

65
00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 1: in Boston, where I started off walking a beat in

66
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 1: a what had been an all Jewish neighborhood that was

67
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,800
Speaker 1: rapidly transitioning to a all black neighborhood. So it was

68
00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,360
Speaker 1: part of my early on exposure to the whole issue

69
00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 1: of race in America. Yeah, it's interesting. The other person

70
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: I know who came back from Vietnam to become a

71
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: policeman on the beat was Don Graham, who ended up

72
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: owning the Washington Post, and he wanted to get to

73
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: know his city. And I always thought it was a

74
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,120
Speaker 1: comment on Graham that he didn't come back to become

75
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 1: a social worker. He came back and worked in the

76
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: DC police force on the street, learning his hometown in

77
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 1: ways that almost nobody else at the Washington Post has

78
00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,760
Speaker 1: a clue about. But I'm curious, you get out of

79
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,680
Speaker 1: the military, you have a chance to go back home.

80
00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: Why do you decide to go into policing? Literally, as

81
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 1: I read about him this book and the earlier biography

82
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,160
Speaker 1: tourn of out Lifelong Dream, And I was influenced as

83
00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,039
Speaker 1: a kid growing up in Boston in the nineteen fifties

84
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,919
Speaker 1: and sixties television seen fifty percent of the shows on

85
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,279
Speaker 1: TV during that era were dragged at one Adam twelve

86
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 1: San Francisco Beat. Additionally, I'm an avid reader, always have been,

87
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,640
Speaker 1: still am, and was attracted to books that further influenced

88
00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: my decision was policing. One being a book by Ja Daughtry,

89
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,560
Speaker 1: a New York reporter, call The Commissioner, and it was

90
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,279
Speaker 1: eventually made into a movie called Madigan with Henry Farner,

91
00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:06,680
Speaker 1: which you would mark. And that was the book that

92
00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,880
Speaker 1: really started me thinking about, God, wouldn't it be wonderful

93
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,200
Speaker 1: to be police commission in New York City. This is

94
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,320
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty sixty one, So in terms of as

95
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,960
Speaker 1: naive as that seemed as a young police officer in

96
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,760
Speaker 1: Boston to think about becoming top cop in the largest

97
00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,960
Speaker 1: pop in the country happened twice, same thing for Ray Kelly,

98
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,400
Speaker 1: very Kelly, actually who I leave Fogg? Both times that

99
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 1: was also a Vietnam vetterman who gave extraordinary combat service

100
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: in Vietnam. I was fortunate I had minimum experience while

101
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 1: I was over there, so a quarter century later you

102
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:42,160
Speaker 1: actually live out your dream. I'm a dreamer. Also at

103
00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:45,600
Speaker 1: that time in the military was looking actively interesting enough

104
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,280
Speaker 1: to joining the Los Angeles Police Department, because they had

105
00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,600
Speaker 1: a system where you can get out of the military

106
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,799
Speaker 1: a few months early if you joined a police department

107
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 1: such as Los Angeles. But at that time, while La

108
00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,800
Speaker 1: certainly interested me, Dragnet one out of twelve, I'm a

109
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,200
Speaker 1: town kid. I want to get back to Boston. Had

110
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 1: the girlfriend eventually came my first wife back there, and

111
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,920
Speaker 1: so there were other motivations to go back to Boston

112
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,960
Speaker 1: and invests I write. His history history was pretty good. Yeah,

113
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 1: I was going to say remarkable enough. I mean, one

114
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,839
Speaker 1: of the things that happened when you see Giuliani, who's

115
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 1: taking over New York at a time when crime seemed

116
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,159
Speaker 1: PERVASI even people were insecure about going into the city.

117
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,240
Speaker 1: At least the story that told that Rudy interviewed three

118
00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: of you and kept saying, so how much can you

119
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,360
Speaker 1: reduce crime? And the other two gave him the sort

120
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,159
Speaker 1: of standard sociological answer of that period, which is, well,

121
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, the police don't really have much impact, and

122
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: it really is a lot of other extraneous things that

123
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 1: I can't promise anything. And supposedly you said ten percent

124
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,960
Speaker 1: the first year, and then you actually had a theory

125
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,800
Speaker 1: in your head and you had experienced that theory at

126
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 1: the New York Transit Police. Talk about that justerment because

127
00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,919
Speaker 1: I think the baseline for one of the great revolutions

128
00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 1: of American domestic policy exposure. Giuliani was two ninety three.

129
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,039
Speaker 1: He had just lost the election to Dave Dacon's first

130
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,640
Speaker 1: black man in New York, and he was reforming to

131
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,760
Speaker 1: learn from the mistakes of his first campaign, and he

132
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,280
Speaker 1: met with George Kelling and I. George Kelling, Jim Wilson,

133
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,320
Speaker 1: the authors of Broken Windows that I had been practicing

134
00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 1: him had been an inherent of for most of our

135
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: police career. We met with Giuliani and we talked about

136
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:25,960
Speaker 1: how it had crime gone down so dramatically in the subways,

137
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,880
Speaker 1: while in the streets of the city was going down

138
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: one or two percent a year, and we explained the

139
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,720
Speaker 1: idea to deal with serious crime simultaneously had a deal

140
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 1: with minor crimes such as in the subway, fair evasion,

141
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 1: homeless issues, puggressive begging. He had a committee that was

142
00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,720
Speaker 1: doing the interview process for police commissioner, and I was

143
00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: dancing around with the idea of applying. I had just

144
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,600
Speaker 1: been appointed commissioner in Boston, and you know lifelong Dream

145
00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120
Speaker 1: also would be commissioner in Boston. In the interview with him,

146
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: I think that wanted him over. I predicted that not

147
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:56,920
Speaker 1: only did I get crime down ten percent of the

148
00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: first year, but I would get it down forty percent

149
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,120
Speaker 1: to three years. So you could imagine a city that

150
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: had been experiencing twenty five years of crime increase, so

151
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: that in nineteen ninety had the worst crime ere forty percent.

152
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: Sounded pretty good. It might have sounded five fetched, but

153
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,800
Speaker 1: when I left twenty seven months later as his police commissioner,

154
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,560
Speaker 1: it was down thirty nine percent, So, like Crystal Ball,

155
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: was pretty good. I don't know about what the other

156
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,640
Speaker 1: candidates might have told him. I know in my process

157
00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,040
Speaker 1: of interviewing my super chiefs who were Ray Kelly's people

158
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,880
Speaker 1: when I took over his commissioner, most of them, when

159
00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 1: I asked them what they thought we could get crimed

160
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 1: down one percent, two percent, three percent, needs to say,

161
00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,080
Speaker 1: got rid of most of them and picked John Timmoy,

162
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,640
Speaker 1: Louis Nimo, Jack Maple, all these guys who believe that

163
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,920
Speaker 1: department had the capacity to get it down ten percent.

164
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 1: We actually got it down I think twelve or thirteen

165
00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,360
Speaker 1: percent the first year, fifteen percent the second year, and

166
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: then we picked up the other fourteen percent. But man,

167
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 1: in the system that you created and the philosophy you created,

168
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,880
Speaker 1: it was pretty well carried out, not just by eight

169
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,960
Speaker 1: years of Giuliani, but then by eight years of Bloomberg,

170
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: and there was an assistant steady decline, particularly in the

171
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 1: murder rate, to such a degree that I saw Bloomberg

172
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:07,760
Speaker 1: when he was mayor at one point and he said,

173
00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, if Staten Island were an independent city, it

174
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,680
Speaker 1: would be the safest single city in America. And he said,

175
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,080
Speaker 1: and the reaction of people in Staten Island is send

176
00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:24,199
Speaker 1: us more cops. But suddenly, this extraordinarily clear successment is

177
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:29,720
Speaker 1: a pragmatic realistic This is all statistically provable, and then

178
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,640
Speaker 1: there's a break point, and suddenly all of the things

179
00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 1: that are working are dropped, and all the things we

180
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,679
Speaker 1: know don't work are picked up again. I mean, how

181
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,680
Speaker 1: do you explain not just in New York, but across

182
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: the country, the fact that here is a model. You

183
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 1: know in New York, in Boston and Los Angeles, you've

184
00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,880
Speaker 1: seen it work. You know, you have a number of

185
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,400
Speaker 1: police chiefs who are sort of alumni of yours. They

186
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,080
Speaker 1: know it works, and yet we've had this dramatic rise

187
00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,440
Speaker 1: in grime. This in the book because it is one

188
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:04,080
Speaker 1: of frustrations for twenty five years after the miracle of

189
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,720
Speaker 1: the New York turnoile beginning of the nineties, I confidently predicted,

190
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,680
Speaker 1: as I went around the country as in la that

191
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,480
Speaker 1: crime would never go back up again in New York

192
00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 1: City because we effectively found the cure, if you will,

193
00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,120
Speaker 1: to keep it under control and under control. Understand, he

194
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,680
Speaker 1: never got to get rid of it all, but you

195
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,160
Speaker 1: could keep it to management levels. I did not take

196
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 1: into account, however, the legislature in Albany and the city

197
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,360
Speaker 1: council in New York City. In two sixteen seventeen, I

198
00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,560
Speaker 1: think we had the safest crime year in the history

199
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,199
Speaker 1: of the city, two hundred and sixty five murders down

200
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 1: from twenty two hundred forty three and nineteen ninety, Shootings

201
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 1: down abound nine hundred, down from five thousand. Overall crime

202
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,240
Speaker 1: down ninety percent in the city, geo population at rikers

203
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 1: down sixty percent, State prison population now forty percent, reflective

204
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,760
Speaker 1: of criminals just weren't being bad guys anyone. And the

205
00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 1: legislature in Albany Little put through several actions bail reform

206
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: which was needed, criminal justice reform which is always needed,

207
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 1: increase in the age for a juvenile to be considered

208
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,440
Speaker 1: adults from sixteen to eighteen. Collectively, those three initiatives that

209
00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 1: were not done with the participation of police, judges, are

210
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: distric attorneys were disastrous and continue to be disastrous for

211
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,560
Speaker 1: New York. Starting the year that passed, crime rates reversed

212
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,679
Speaker 1: dramatically in New York City, so that New York is

213
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,199
Speaker 1: no longer the safest large city in America. Which were

214
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,839
Speaker 1: held title too for almost twenty years. It is now

215
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 1: like many other American cities struggling with the ongoing impact

216
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 1: of those reforms well intended. I'm a reformist doing that

217
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 1: for fifty years, but in this case, it's like the

218
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,640
Speaker 1: expression of bridge too far World War Two. It was

219
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: reformed too far, too fast, At the opening my book,

220
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: I have a quote from John Timmany, the late great

221
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 1: John Timmoy, my first deputy. Those who don't know their

222
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,959
Speaker 1: history are doomed to repeat it, certainly as somebody knows history.

223
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,360
Speaker 1: I love all of your books about history of what

224
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,160
Speaker 1: might have been, of certain things that happened or not happened.

225
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:09,360
Speaker 1: But those who don't know the history are doing to

226
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 1: repeat it. Those who know police know, we don't know

227
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,320
Speaker 1: our history. I know police history of study inside now.

228
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,680
Speaker 1: And obviously our politicians don't know their history because they're

229
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,240
Speaker 1: doing the same thing in twenty twenty one that they

230
00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,080
Speaker 1: did back in nineteen seventy one. A hand had it correctly,

231
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,640
Speaker 1: some of them on a hand. And in the seventies

232
00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 1: you talked about defining socialdeving seed down, that we were

233
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,800
Speaker 1: defining what is deving seed down? Well, now we're defining

234
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 1: social normalcy down. The behavior accepting on our streets is outrageous.

235
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 1: In New York City, you've overwhelmed on our streets and

236
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 1: sidewalks with all these scooters un licensed, given by people

237
00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,000
Speaker 1: who have no licenses, uninsured, And that's just one example

238
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 1: of the politicians are not allowing the police to enforce

239
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,559
Speaker 1: the district attorneys more troubling not supporting the police and

240
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,079
Speaker 1: their efforts on minor crime or even on major crimes

241
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,679
Speaker 1: place shootings. So we have a criminal that's assistant, that

242
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,640
Speaker 1: is fraction and effectively for a year during the virus collapsed,

243
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 1: no trials, nothing happening in the courts were trying to

244
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 1: make up for lost time with reformed laws that give

245
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:14,760
Speaker 1: the police really no powers to enforce anything. We're gonna mess.

246
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm told by a number of people that one of

247
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: the effects of the very very pro criminal reforms on

248
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,679
Speaker 1: things like no bail is that the police, in the

249
00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 1: existence of these George Soros funded district attorneys who refuse

250
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 1: to enforce the law, is that the police get to

251
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,400
Speaker 1: a point where they say, why would I arrest somebody?

252
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 1: Go through the paperwork knowing they may literally be back

253
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,600
Speaker 1: on the street before I finished the paperwork, and that

254
00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,360
Speaker 1: it leads to a dramatic reduction of energy enthusiasm in

255
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,560
Speaker 1: the police force. That is one disincentive new but compounding

256
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 1: it and may be more problematic, is that many legislators

257
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,120
Speaker 1: in the country, but particularly New York and City Council

258
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 1: in Albany, legislators have openly been attacking the police that

259
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,440
Speaker 1: many of the laws they're passing are intended to penalize

260
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,359
Speaker 1: police action, so that police officers have now become incredibly

261
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,200
Speaker 1: intimidated in America that if they take an action that

262
00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 1: they believe is correct, they are immediately subject to potentially

263
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,520
Speaker 1: being sued for it. The qualified immunity issue, there was

264
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: a great debate the George Floydville that did not get

265
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 1: out of Congress largely because of the qualified immunity issue

266
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 1: is one example of that where that protection of the

267
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: Supreme Court has hoppelled time and time again is on

268
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,400
Speaker 1: the tremendous attack from the far left. And so what's

269
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,800
Speaker 1: going on with police officers. They're not only not being

270
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 1: supported by district attorneys who refuse to support their arrests,

271
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 1: they're being attacked for taking actions that, while lawful, may

272
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 1: look awful when you take so many its custody. It's

273
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 1: oftentimes people that have existing arrest You have no legal

274
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,280
Speaker 1: lights to resist the lawful arrest. But people knew all

275
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 1: the time, and that's the videos we see every night

276
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,080
Speaker 1: leading the nightly news. So we're in a situation at

277
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,320
Speaker 1: the moment that is unfortunate that I've never seen anything

278
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:18,040
Speaker 1: like it. In the last fifty years. We have the

279
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 1: compounding factors of police who are not being supported, but

280
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,240
Speaker 1: who are being actually openly targeted and attacked by legislation.

281
00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,000
Speaker 1: Because it is such an important issue, could you take

282
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: just a minute for us average folks and explain why

283
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,280
Speaker 1: this whole attack unqualified immunity is so dangerous and so

284
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,680
Speaker 1: central to Basically, I think driving people out of policing.

285
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,960
Speaker 1: I think if you lose that protection, I suspect very

286
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 1: few people would remain in the police force. You're driving

287
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:51,520
Speaker 1: them out. Some departments have been reduced by twenty thirty

288
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,040
Speaker 1: three percent in case of Minneapolis, Minneapolis has lost a

289
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 1: third of its police force. One of the most dangerous

290
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,320
Speaker 1: cities in America, one of the most troubled cities. But

291
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 1: the issue of recruiting them, very few cities are having

292
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 1: significant success recruiting, and it's also impacting on the ability

293
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: to recruit what we're very desirous of a mixed population

294
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 1: in terms of men and women. Gazed the reflection of

295
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 1: American society and say, correct, to a lot of young people,

296
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,280
Speaker 1: why would they want to come into a business where

297
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,960
Speaker 1: they're not supported politically, not supported by the legal system,

298
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,920
Speaker 1: have the potential to be sued and have their lives

299
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: and their families lives impacted. It really takes a very

300
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,160
Speaker 1: courageous young person to want to come into the business. Thankfully,

301
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 1: there are still many, even in these troubled times, to

302
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: want to. And I look back to my own time

303
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy when I come into the business. There was

304
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: a very troubled time. Back then. Police were coming out

305
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 1: of the horrific issues around the Chicago Democratic Convention where

306
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 1: the Chicago police went crazy, and then during the race

307
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 1: riots of the late sixties and the trouble times in

308
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 1: my city of Boston with school disegregation and housing disegregation,

309
00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,040
Speaker 1: police were under significant attack. But the tack was intended

310
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 1: to reform the police. The attacks now both one to

311
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,360
Speaker 1: reform and will always reform me. But there's a mean

312
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,520
Speaker 1: spiritedness to it. Now there is a bitterness that a

313
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 1: lot of these laws have intended to really punish the

314
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,240
Speaker 1: police rather than correct their behavior, and it's changed the tone.

315
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,280
Speaker 1: Good news is though, that young people, even of these

316
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,680
Speaker 1: new generations, a lost track in the way of generation acts.

317
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: And I forget what the new generations called from the

318
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,600
Speaker 1: old baby boom of population. But as aid, a restaurant

319
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 1: here in New York the other night, and the woman

320
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,199
Speaker 1: serving as a beautiful young African American woman, and she

321
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,560
Speaker 1: greeted me and how you doing, Commissioner, And I said, oh,

322
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,840
Speaker 1: I'm doing fine, Thank you, said, I just wanted to know.

323
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:41,920
Speaker 1: I'm taking the exam to become a New York City

324
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: police officer. And I looked up and I was startled

325
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,240
Speaker 1: in the sense is a beautiful young African American woman

326
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 1: turned out she was twenty three? And I said why

327
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:55,400
Speaker 1: and she said, because it matters, because it matters, And

328
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 1: that basically hit me because I have an expression I used,

329
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 1: cops count, police matter, and so her not knowing I

330
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 1: used that phrase police matter, and she wanted to matter.

331
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,040
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna be actually talking to her later today

332
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,400
Speaker 1: that she's going in for her whole exam to become

333
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,600
Speaker 1: a New York City police officer. I have to say,

334
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 1: as somebody who both lived through it and studied it

335
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,920
Speaker 1: as history, people tend to forget that in nineteen sixty nine,

336
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 1: there were two thousand, five hundred bombings in the United States.

337
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,960
Speaker 1: At the period that you came back from Vietnam, there

338
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 1: was a low grade war going on here at home

339
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,880
Speaker 1: parallel to the war being fought over there. And now

340
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,720
Speaker 1: we're back because the jump from two thousand nineteen to

341
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: two and twenty. There were an additional four thousand, nine

342
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 1: hundred and one murders in two thousand and twenty, which

343
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: was the largest leap since we began keeping records in

344
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,879
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty. I mean, that's an astonishing number. There were

345
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,800
Speaker 1: a total of twenty one thousand, five hundred and seventy murders.

346
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:01,199
Speaker 1: It's really still lower than a in the nineties, but

347
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 1: obviously going back rapidly. And I'm told that in Baltimore,

348
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,760
Speaker 1: which may be the most dangerous city per capita, the

349
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 1: murder rate there is actually higher than in Honduras or

350
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 1: El Salvador, which is almost impossible to believe. In fact,

351
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to Baltimore in the near future for a conference,

352
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,400
Speaker 1: and I'm confident I'm pretty safe, but it's still sobering

353
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: to think about that. And as you well know, ninety

354
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,920
Speaker 1: nine hundred of the people killed in twenty were black,

355
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: seven thousand were white, four hundred ninety seven were from

356
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,560
Speaker 1: other races, and three hundred and fifteen did not have

357
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 1: any racelestes, which means, by the way, among Latinos and

358
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:41,960
Speaker 1: Asian Americans, there's a dramatically lower homicide rate than there

359
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 1: is among the African Americans and whites. Well, that's correct

360
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 1: in the sense that those figures just related of them Blacks.

361
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: I think the overall population United States is like fourteen percent,

362
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 1: but they're accounting for almost majority of murders and murderers

363
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 1: in the United States. So that's compounding the efforts to

364
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 1: try to deal with the issue of race in the

365
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: country because at a time we're talking about disparate impact

366
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: on police enforcement activities as relates to the black community,

367
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,959
Speaker 1: number of blacks going in prison. There's a convenient effort,

368
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 1: if you will, to forget that the connage that's occurring

369
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 1: in terms of the shootings and murders, that there's a

370
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 1: disparate impact occurring there. But there's a failure on the pilot,

371
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 1: particularly the final left, to recognize that the good news

372
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 1: is that we have not returned to the nineties and

373
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 1: the terms of the levels of violent crime, we have

374
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,680
Speaker 1: not returned to the sixties. And you correct, people tend

375
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: to forget about like the bombings or in New York City,

376
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: on several years and the seventies they had twelve officers

377
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: assassinated literally in the streets of New York with the

378
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,159
Speaker 1: Simonies Liberal Ancient Army in California, the Black Panthers in

379
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,479
Speaker 1: New York. That it was a time of really open

380
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: warfare between organized groups like the Panthers of the Simonese

381
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: Liberation Army against A lot of work goes on now

382
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: is singular, but it has the risk of evolving into

383
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: something more insidious and more pervasive. I'm curious, as you

384
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 1: have studied this so much more than I have, in fact,

385
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,199
Speaker 1: probably more than almost anybody in the country. If you

386
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: have the kind of murder rate we're describing among African Americans,

387
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:26,160
Speaker 1: why hasn't the call been for more effective policing to

388
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 1: save the lives of thousands of people, rather than becoming

389
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: anti police, even though overwhelmingly the murders I'm describing are

390
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 1: being caused by people in the community, very often drug

391
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: related or gang related, but at a horrendous level. I mean,

392
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 1: when you have six month old babies killed by random

393
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 1: shootings and twelve year olds killed trying to walk to

394
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: the store, I would think there would be a demand

395
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: for dramatically stronger and more effective policing. But instead the

396
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: attitude has been the exact opposite. I know you've thought

397
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: a great deal about race and policing. Why do we

398
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 1: go down that road? Yes, and know on that point

399
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: the activists have managed, particularly in this day of social media,

400
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: I've been able to capture the state, if you will,

401
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: versus the larger population still wants the police, still needs

402
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,679
Speaker 1: the police, but they want police who they believe one,

403
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: in many instances from and all their community. In other words,

404
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: they want to racially diverse the police force. But two,

405
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 1: they want police who they feel are more hearing, that

406
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: see them, understand the history of what they've dealt with

407
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: and the issues they're dealing with in their communities. And

408
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: in policing, we've not done a very good job over history.

409
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: I think in more recent times we've gotten better at it.

410
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: We train our offices better. We have a much more

411
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: diverse police forces around the country, particularly in the inner city.

412
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Some cities have, like New York and Los Angeles, majority

413
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: minority police forces. But the challenge is it's like a

414
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: doctor dealing with a very ill patients. How much medicine

415
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: can you use that we is life saving, but if

416
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: you use too much, we end up potentially harming the

417
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: patient more significantly of actually killing the patient. And in policing,

418
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: whether it's our use of stop question frisk, whether it's

419
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: our use of lawful force, whether it's abuse of our

420
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: most important tool tongues, our language, we still have too

421
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: many failures on the part of too many offices, not

422
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: anywhere near what I experience coming into policing the seventies

423
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 1: and eighties, racism, brutality, corruption was so much more open

424
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,919
Speaker 1: than they are today, particularly insert regions in the country.

425
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: But we've come a long way, and I in write

426
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: about this in the book that we're constantly reforming, We're

427
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: constantly evolving, and the events in Minneapolis unfortunately set back

428
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: a lot of that reformation. A lot of that evolution

429
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: set us back is Derek Jovin's actions, the callousness of

430
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,760
Speaker 1: that murder, So we're having to recover from that. But

431
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: the good news is we have the capability and capacity.

432
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: And the frustration I have, though goes back to those

433
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: who don't know the history are doing repeat it. When

434
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 1: the legislature in Albany upset the criminal justice system in

435
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: New York, they just didn't look closely enough. In New York.

436
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: We were doing everything in New York that the Obama

437
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: pillars the Policing Report had asked for, that the various

438
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,199
Speaker 1: consent decrees we're looking for, we're implementing neighborhood policing. We

439
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,239
Speaker 1: were doing it with an a diverse workforce, homicized down

440
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: ninety percent of wild crime. The city was booming. But

441
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: in one year, the legislature and the misguided efforts to

442
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: defund the police, reform the police, turn the world upside down.

443
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: And until the public understands that they need legislators who

444
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: understand history, we're going to keep repeating these failures. Unfortunately,

445
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: let's stay with the politicians for secon Do you think

446
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 1: it's because they are driven by their ideological supporters and

447
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: therefore facts don't matter, or just that you know, in

448
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 1: a sense, you guys got crime down so low that

449
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: it seemed plausible around twenty seventeen or eighteen to take risks, because,

450
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: after all, look how safe it is. So in a sense,

451
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: the very environment of safety made it easier to be stupid. Actually,

452
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: that's a very interesting point. News. We had made it

453
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: so safe that sixty five million choruss eight and a

454
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: half million people versus seven and a half million back

455
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: in the nineties boom Town. And this was to a

456
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 1: succession of mayors Republicans, Democrats, Liberals, et ce. So a

457
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: lot of it I think was just driven by politicians

458
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: who had been elected by a minority of voters who

459
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: really just did not trust the police, were angry at

460
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 1: the police, were angry at the system, and I'm trying

461
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: to do too much, too soon, too fast, and they're

462
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: screwed it up. Is screwed up in city after city

463
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: after city, and we're seeing the resultimate with the rising

464
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: crime and the increasing rather than diminishing racial tensions, and

465
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 1: some instances we've had increased racial tensions. And the concern

466
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: I have that is not even talked about a notice

467
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: at the moment, is the idea that's so much of

468
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: the crime that we're seeing in the inner cities, the

469
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: reality of it is being committed by minorities, largely against

470
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: other minorities, but that the fear that generated so much

471
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 1: of racial tension throughout our history, fear of the black

472
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: man or the brown man, that we want to risk

473
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: by not penalizing those who are committing crime and penalizing

474
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: them appropriately at all costs. We're trying to keep people

475
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: out of jail, and that's not working for some people,

476
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: because we have some very bad people who should be

477
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: in jail. But by trying to keep them all out

478
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: of jail, we're effectively creating a fear once again of

479
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: the black man or the brown man. It's kind of

480
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: the Willie Horton fact of the late nineteen eighties that

481
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: George Bush was able to use successfully to help propelment

482
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: to the White House and beat Mike Decoccus. So I

483
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: worry about that because if we don't resolve this racial

484
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: tension issue, we're never going to get out of this mess. Well,

485
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: that's the other thing I want to ask you about,

486
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: because it's intriguing to me that, after a lifetime of

487
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: both leading and policing and studying policing, you decided you

488
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: had to turn towards the whole issue of community and

489
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: race in America. What is it you think we don't

490
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: get don't get the importance of it in the sense

491
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: that as we talk about it as America's original sin.

492
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: On New York Times misguided sixteen nineteen effort to revite

493
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: American history we're in a quandary at the moment, but

494
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: the resolution of it. I think, I truly believe this

495
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: that you can't do it without the police, and I

496
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: think the police might be effectively the catalyst to resolve

497
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: it because so much of the tension evolves around police actions,

498
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: our use of force, interaction with the minority groups. And

499
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: this is where it comes down to the issue of

500
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: you get what you pay for. Right now, America is

501
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: at least some of its political leadership is reluctant to

502
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 1: pay for police. And that's the defund the police movement.

503
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: And what are the three things that police get jammed

504
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: up most frequently on that we see on the evening news.

505
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: It is dealing with emotionally disturbed, the narcotics and paid

506
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: and the homeless population. And those three entities of American

507
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: society and government been wrestling with fifty years, not successfully.

508
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: Police have always been the safety and at three o'clock

509
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: in the morning to have to deal with those issues.

510
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: So the effort now to defund the police is largely

511
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: drivened by the idea get the police out of the

512
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: business of dealing with those three populations. Police would love

513
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: to get out of the business of dealing with those

514
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: three populations. It's not easy work and it gets us

515
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: into trouble so often. But why do we get into

516
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: so much trouble Because one, we're not trained to deal

517
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: adequately with them, we're not appropriately funded to deal with them,

518
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: and there's no place to put them. You arrest an

519
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: emotionally stirred person in the ark, they go into psychiatric

520
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: evaluation for three days and they're right back out in

521
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: the street. You arrest somebody for narcotics and payment the

522
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: same thing. There's no place to basically treat them. And

523
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: the homeless, the ARC is the largest homeless and issues

524
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: in America, and we still have thousands of them moving

525
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: on the street. So the defund the police movement you

526
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: write about it, I write about it is one of

527
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: the stupidest ideas, stupidest hash tags have it developed. And

528
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: the Democrats that they don't change their tune very quickly,

529
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: going to get the clocks clean. In twenty twenty two

530
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: on that issue, as America wants police, it wants more police.

531
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: You saw that in the nineties. My first meeting with

532
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: you was with Rudy Julian down in Washington. You speak

533
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: of the House when we were lobbying for the Cineville

534
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: and the fine bill that hired one hundred thousand more

535
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: cops than those hundred thousand cops by the end of

536
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: the nineties helped to make America forty percent safer than

537
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: it was in ninety four. Defund the police now is

538
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: the long way to go. We need to spend more

539
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: money himing more police, but training, training, training. I write

540
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: about my book I was on the reach to Boston

541
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: after eight weeks of training with a gun, a badge,

542
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: out of rescue, the power to kill you, And fifty

543
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: years later we put cops with six months of training.

544
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 1: Not enough. They need to go through much more. But

545
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 1: they also need to train every year. These are skills

546
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: that disappear very quickly, and also the new skills they

547
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: have to acquire now to deal with the twenty first

548
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: century challenge of policing with all the technology issues we

549
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: have to face. So if you want to resolve the

550
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: race issue in America, a central tool to do it

551
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: would be Americans police, who are becoming much more diverse,

552
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: much more reflective of the population. I had over a

553
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: thousand Muslim offices in the NYPD, for example, reflective of

554
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: the seven hundred thousand Muslims who live in New York

555
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: City and basically fifteen percent African Americans reflective of the

556
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: population of African Americans in the city twenty percent women.

557
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: We can do it, and I strongly believe that police

558
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: have that capacity, But we're not going to have that

559
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: capacity if they keep funding us. Right now, I think

560
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: there were six hundred sixty thousand in America. Yeah, from

561
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: that eight hundred thousand we had in the nineties, we

562
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: have many more issues to deal with now we have

563
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: a much larger population. So the defund the police movement,

564
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: we need to refund them, and we need to also

565
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: defend them. Refund and defend. That's a tremendous summary. Bill.

566
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. I think

567
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: your book The Profession, A Memoir of Community Race in

568
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: the Art of Policing in America, is candid. It's a

569
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: must read. I think for everyone who really wants to

570
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: get to a safer community, both citizens, mayor city council.

571
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: And if the politicians could read it, I think you

572
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: would see a dramatic change in their attitude. And I

573
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: really appreciate you helping us today and I hope that

574
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: all of our listeners will take seriously your advice. We

575
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: do have a link to purchase The Profession on our

576
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: show page at Newtsworld dot com. And frankly, it is

577
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 1: always a great privilege when you're willing to share some

578
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: time with us because of your extraordinary career and you

579
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: know your extraordinary knowledge and the fact you've committed your

580
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: life to a say for America. So I thank you

581
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: for being with us today. Thank you. It's always a

582
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: pleasure to bridge back with him. Thank you to my

583
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: guest commissioner, Bill Bretton. You can get a link to

584
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: buy his new book, The Profession, a Memoir of Community

585
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 1: Race in the Art of Policing in America on our

586
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: show page at newsworld dot com. News World is produced

587
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: by Gingwidge three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is

588
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher

589
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: is Rachel Peterson. Artwork for the show was created by

590
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingridge three sixty.

591
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll go to

592
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and

593
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's

594
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: all about. Right now, ms of Newsworld can sign up

595
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: for my three free weekly columns at gangwistreet sixty dot

596
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm new gingrich. This is news World,