WEBVTT - Corinne Bailey Rae 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:23.196 Pushkin. Krin Bailey Ray independently released one of my favorite 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:26.996 albums of twenty twenty three, Black Rainbows. We had a 0:00:27.076 --> 0:00:29.036 chat over Zoom at the end of the year about 0:00:29.036 --> 0:00:31.876 the place that inspired the album, the Stony Island Arts 0:00:31.876 --> 0:00:34.836 Bank in Chicago, and then when she came to LA 0:00:34.996 --> 0:00:37.836 around Grammy time, we decided to meet up and continue 0:00:37.876 --> 0:00:40.636 our conversation, not only about the new album and what 0:00:40.676 --> 0:00:43.196 it meant to find her own artistic voice again, but 0:00:43.276 --> 0:00:47.636 also to discuss reflections Refractions at the Stony Island Arts Bank, 0:00:48.316 --> 0:00:51.276 a beautiful book Krin's put together, cataloging the items that 0:00:51.316 --> 0:00:55.636 inspired her new music and her creative awakening. The conversation 0:00:55.756 --> 0:00:58.316 takes us from Krinn recording her third album, The Heart 0:00:58.316 --> 0:01:01.476 Speaks and Whispers at Capitol in Hollywood, to finding a 0:01:01.516 --> 0:01:05.476 spiritual home in Chicago, to discovering a mid century New 0:01:05.556 --> 0:01:08.076 York subway pageant that led to one of my favorite 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:11.916 songs on her new album, The rackus New York Transit Queen. 0:01:14.756 --> 0:01:17.996 This is broken record. I don't notes for the digital age. 0:01:18.156 --> 0:01:22.476 I'm justin Richmond. Here's my conversation with Corinne Bailey Ray. 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:25.036 Have you recorded here much? 0:01:25.596 --> 0:01:29.356 Yes, I have I did my third album, Capitol, so 0:01:29.516 --> 0:01:32.076 I loved being there. I mean, that's amazing. We came 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:34.476 for seven weeks and we ended up saying for seven months, 0:01:34.636 --> 0:01:36.756 I mean, not all in studio A because it would 0:01:36.756 --> 0:01:38.676 have you know, bankrupted. 0:01:39.156 --> 0:01:39.996 How much did you spend on? 0:01:40.196 --> 0:01:42.116 Yes, it was a lot. It was a lot, but 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:44.556 it was worth it because it was James Godson, you know, 0:01:44.596 --> 0:01:46.596 who's such a brilliant drummer. And it was just nice 0:01:46.636 --> 0:01:48.476 we all to be in that space and anything you 0:01:48.516 --> 0:01:51.796 played in there you just played G on acoustic guitar thing. Yeah, 0:01:51.876 --> 0:01:54.996 that's right, a song with just G. Everything sounded good. 0:01:55.796 --> 0:01:57.596 I really liked it. I'd like to go again when 0:01:57.636 --> 0:01:59.876 I was a bit more together, because we didn't quite 0:01:59.876 --> 0:02:01.516 know what we're doing. I'd like to go when it 0:02:01.556 --> 0:02:04.076 was like, we know what the songs are, let's work 0:02:04.116 --> 0:02:06.836 on the arrangements, you know, rehearse and then you can 0:02:06.916 --> 0:02:07.596 just be ready to go. 0:02:07.676 --> 0:02:10.076 Yeah, a little room, I mean, I imagine there's some 0:02:10.236 --> 0:02:12.516 inspiration in that building. It's at room for. 0:02:12.876 --> 0:02:15.236 Just the actual sound, you know, space and then the 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:18.316 echo chamber. Yeah, it's really good. And we went into 0:02:18.356 --> 0:02:21.276 the echo chamber and it still smells of paint. Wow, 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:22.436 from when it was painted. 0:02:23.076 --> 0:02:24.516 That can't be good, can it. Yeah? 0:02:24.516 --> 0:02:27.236 I guess that's probably lead paint or something. But where 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:29.436 the air didn't go anywhere, you know, just let you 0:02:29.476 --> 0:02:32.516 just close the door. So yeah, amazing place. 0:02:33.476 --> 0:02:35.716 I've only been there a few times, but it's so yeah. 0:02:35.756 --> 0:02:38.036 I still you know, I've lived here my whole life, 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:41.436 but every time I passed that building, isn't it? And 0:02:41.436 --> 0:02:43.956 I always worry about now nowadays too, I worry about 0:02:43.956 --> 0:02:45.676 it when I passed, like I feel some sort of 0:02:46.036 --> 0:02:47.636 like hop you know, I doubt they're going to take 0:02:47.636 --> 0:02:49.036 it down, but I hope, Yeah, I know that. 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:51.196 Do you universal still own it or is it owned 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:53.516 by someone else? And when I was working there, there 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:56.516 was a big fuss because they were making big condos nearby, 0:02:56.556 --> 0:02:58.916 but it was disturbing all the underground stuff and that's 0:02:58.916 --> 0:03:01.756 where the echo chambers are. They were like, what's it 0:03:01.836 --> 0:03:05.356 going to do to like acoustics? But I think it's 0:03:05.356 --> 0:03:06.036 probably fine. 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:08.556 How's it been in town? It's so I forgot it 0:03:08.596 --> 0:03:09.316 was Grammy. 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:12.236 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's fun. I just won this 0:03:12.316 --> 0:03:15.396 award at the Resonator Awards, which is for women who 0:03:15.436 --> 0:03:19.316 produce an engineer. It's that organization called Move the Needle. 0:03:19.356 --> 0:03:21.116 I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's 0:03:21.156 --> 0:03:24.156 set up by Emily Lazarre. And so the main thing 0:03:24.156 --> 0:03:26.116 they've done is sort of analyzed music. So they made 0:03:26.156 --> 0:03:28.916 this analysis of everything that came out last year, and 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:30.716 of all the songs that came out last year and 0:03:30.756 --> 0:03:33.716 all the records, there was only six just over six 0:03:33.756 --> 0:03:37.396 percent that either had a woman producer or engineer. So 0:03:37.436 --> 0:03:39.876 they're just looking at how they can kind of bring 0:03:39.916 --> 0:03:44.796 equity to these organizations, including mentorships for young women. And 0:03:45.196 --> 0:03:47.396 it's mostly coming out of school and you know, being 0:03:47.996 --> 0:03:51.316 the person who trains with a mixed engineer, because that's 0:03:51.356 --> 0:03:52.356 the seat you really want. 0:03:52.196 --> 0:03:54.156 To be in, right, That's how you get there. 0:03:54.396 --> 0:03:56.756 That's how you get experienced. You can learn all you 0:03:56.756 --> 0:03:59.116 want to college, but when you're actually working on records 0:03:59.156 --> 0:04:02.356 every single day and sitting in rooms and working with artists, 0:04:02.356 --> 0:04:05.436 that's when you really become a master. So I think 0:04:05.476 --> 0:04:08.116 they set up quite a few internships and there's camps, 0:04:08.116 --> 0:04:09.996 and then there were loads of big writers there, like 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:14.556 Linda Perry was there. She's really good and she's really honest. 0:04:15.156 --> 0:04:18.476 And then alanis Morrissette was winning an award, a kind 0:04:18.476 --> 0:04:21.996 of trailblazer award, and she's such a big writer. Her 0:04:22.036 --> 0:04:25.436 record Jagged Little Pill is the second biggest selling record 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:26.196 of all time? 0:04:26.596 --> 0:04:27.156 Is that true? 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:30.116 Which I didn't see. It's like thriller then Jagged Little Pill. 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:35.236 Whoa yeah, So when it was eighty eighty five million recorder, 0:04:35.316 --> 0:04:38.076 I could move for that record, and obviously all over 0:04:38.116 --> 0:04:39.956 the world eighty five million. 0:04:39.636 --> 0:04:43.476 Records, five million thriller like below, just below thriller rilla. 0:04:43.676 --> 0:04:45.676 Yeah, I was thinking, is it a Beatles record or 0:04:45.676 --> 0:04:48.276 but yeah, it's thriller, my yeah, I guess it's like 0:04:48.356 --> 0:04:50.236 it's also with how which chart you're looking at and 0:04:50.236 --> 0:04:53.596 all that sort of stuff. But yeah, that's a massive. 0:04:54.316 --> 0:04:56.396 But then they were just highlighting all these different engineers 0:04:56.436 --> 0:04:58.076 and producers that I'd never heard of that were doing 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:00.476 big things. They're all sort of Grammy nominated this year. 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:03.716 And this woman who's kind of Jack Antonof's right hand 0:05:03.756 --> 0:05:07.876 woman who does everything you know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, she's 0:05:07.956 --> 0:05:10.596 the mixed engineer and he just won't work with anyone 0:05:10.596 --> 0:05:11.636 Else's amazing. 0:05:11.716 --> 0:05:13.716 Would you ever produce it? Would you ever work in 0:05:13.716 --> 0:05:15.796 that capacity? Like help another artist? 0:05:15.836 --> 0:05:17.876 I mean, I just don't feel myself to be prolific 0:05:17.956 --> 0:05:20.396 enough to kind of be a producer for other people. 0:05:20.396 --> 0:05:22.956 But obviously I love producing my own music. I mean, 0:05:22.996 --> 0:05:23.476 maybe in the. 0:05:23.436 --> 0:05:25.276 Future I could do that. 0:05:25.916 --> 0:05:28.596 I just feel like it's not like, oh, I've got 0:05:28.636 --> 0:05:30.516 ten records out and then I've got, you know, two 0:05:30.516 --> 0:05:32.596 spare months to produce someone else. I feel like I'm 0:05:32.636 --> 0:05:35.876 always just trying to like get it right for myself. 0:05:36.756 --> 0:05:39.036 I did get asked recently to work with someone, and 0:05:39.156 --> 0:05:41.236 you know, maybe at a different point in my career 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:43.876 I could do it. Or if I saw someone who thought, oh, 0:05:43.876 --> 0:05:46.396 they're really brilliant and they you know, they need a 0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:49.636 bit of help with the direction, and they were up 0:05:49.636 --> 0:05:52.396 for it. I think it's hard sometimes an artist producer. 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:54.396 I've worked with artist producers before where they have a 0:05:54.436 --> 0:05:56.836 really strong opinion of how it should be. Whereas I 0:05:56.876 --> 0:05:58.996 feel like the best producers like we could do it 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:01.436 like this or this or this or this, I've got 0:06:01.476 --> 0:06:05.196 all the different angles, Whereas I won't have loads of ideas. 0:06:05.436 --> 0:06:07.876 It's just with my own music, I just think it 0:06:07.956 --> 0:06:10.276 has to be this, you know direction. 0:06:10.556 --> 0:06:13.196 You know. It's funny. I re listened again to like 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:18.356 every record in chronological way. Every record is different. Yeah. Yeah, 0:06:18.396 --> 0:06:23.396 so you at least got four different you know angles. 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:26.276 Yeah, yeah, No, I do really love it. I just 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:28.636 think it takes it takes me a long time, you know, 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:30.516 with Hero and the Tortoise or something. 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:32.596 Do you feel like you're always like writing. 0:06:32.716 --> 0:06:35.316 I feel like I'm always in phases. So I think 0:06:35.316 --> 0:06:37.716 with this record, I'm still very much in the phase 0:06:37.756 --> 0:06:42.036 of tell the stories, communicate the stories. It feels much 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:44.556 bigger than me. It's really different from talking about your 0:06:44.556 --> 0:06:47.476 own life compared to talking about these stories in this place, 0:06:48.116 --> 0:06:51.196 and I feel like I'm in the business of connecting people. 0:06:51.276 --> 0:06:51.436 You know. 0:06:51.516 --> 0:06:55.076 I spoke to a radio presenter who's just over at 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:59.196 Tavis Smiley's radio station. But I remember specifically the interview 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:02.116 what we talked about. You know, we talked about Aretha 0:07:02.116 --> 0:07:03.596 Franklin's Amazing Grace. 0:07:04.316 --> 0:07:06.116 Grace read it for you, didn't. 0:07:05.876 --> 0:07:07.716 He He was like, do you know about this record? 0:07:07.756 --> 0:07:09.956 And I said, yes, I love that record, and we 0:07:10.036 --> 0:07:12.036 got to talk about that. You know, remember, so this 0:07:12.276 --> 0:07:15.436 what's sacred, what spiritual, how people come out of the 0:07:15.556 --> 0:07:17.316 church and they kind of punished for it to a 0:07:17.356 --> 0:07:19.356 certain extent, or you know, you're really on your own, 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:23.116 But how can you ever separate music from spirituality and 0:07:23.636 --> 0:07:23.916 all this? 0:07:24.156 --> 0:07:26.956 That's blowing my mind because that's actually the conversation. I 0:07:26.996 --> 0:07:29.156 completely forgot about it. You said, that's how I discovered 0:07:29.196 --> 0:07:29.916 that record. 0:07:30.156 --> 0:07:34.796 Really from that conversation. Really, yeah, you guys talking about Wow. 0:07:35.196 --> 0:07:37.276 So he was, yeah, that works then, right, he was 0:07:37.276 --> 0:07:39.916 recommending it to me. But whoever was watching it, Yeah, 0:07:39.916 --> 0:07:42.836 that's such a good album. And it's just a community 0:07:42.956 --> 0:07:43.916 choir who were. 0:07:44.476 --> 0:07:45.916 Excellent, insanely good. 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:47.956 Yeah, but you know they just live nearby and they 0:07:47.996 --> 0:07:49.876 go to that church. Yeah, you know, it's not the 0:07:49.956 --> 0:07:52.876 all star gospel choir of you know, it's just not 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:54.076 local people. 0:07:53.956 --> 0:07:57.596 Speaking of like spiritual homes. Got to look through the book. 0:07:57.796 --> 0:08:03.036 It's wild how Chicago became this kind of spiritual home. 0:08:03.596 --> 0:08:06.356 It's a second home for either way you're I. 0:08:06.276 --> 0:08:08.956 Mean, Chicago just became and still is for me. It's 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:12.676 kind of the center of the world for black stuff 0:08:12.756 --> 0:08:15.756 for me. You know, in terms of thinking about the 0:08:16.516 --> 0:08:20.236 huge migration that happened after the Civil War and after abolition, 0:08:20.876 --> 0:08:23.596 where did the majority of people from the South want 0:08:23.636 --> 0:08:26.316 to go? The enslaved people Obviously a lot of people 0:08:26.356 --> 0:08:30.236 stayed in the South and really identified with those states 0:08:30.276 --> 0:08:33.716 and being in the land and being farmers and being 0:08:33.756 --> 0:08:36.356 close to nature. But so many people wanted to go 0:08:36.436 --> 0:08:40.476 to Chicago, you know, the big city. So many people came, 0:08:40.516 --> 0:08:42.356 and so you think of all those the mixture of 0:08:42.396 --> 0:08:45.676 all those different cultures. I mean, I sort of think 0:08:45.836 --> 0:08:49.476 it's all those different Africans that have lived in America 0:08:49.916 --> 0:08:54.276 for generations, and all the cultures of the various states, 0:08:54.476 --> 0:08:57.276 and even the cultures of the various plantations, you know, 0:08:57.996 --> 0:09:02.116 impacting to what extent people were allowed freedom to move 0:09:02.156 --> 0:09:05.076 around because of course some enslaved people were hired out, 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:07.676 you know, on different jobs. They drove the masses around, 0:09:07.716 --> 0:09:10.836 you know, Dave the Potter who made pots for people 0:09:10.916 --> 0:09:14.836 around around the plantation delivered them and so just what 0:09:14.956 --> 0:09:16.956 that was like. And then coming to Chicago and then 0:09:17.036 --> 0:09:19.996 what they brought with them, their traditions, their culture, their food. 0:09:21.076 --> 0:09:23.796 But yeah, Chicago, I mean I feel like I knew 0:09:23.796 --> 0:09:27.076 of Chicago as a you know, being a British person, 0:09:27.116 --> 0:09:32.196 a European person, as like the mab the Mafia, Yeah, 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:35.636 the Windy City, you know, the musical Chicago. I didn't 0:09:35.676 --> 0:09:40.196 think of it as being this center of Black thought 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:43.836 and space. You know, I certainly wouldn't have thought, oh, 0:09:43.916 --> 0:09:48.516 Ebony Magazine was Chicago, and then was it? Yeah? Yeah, 0:09:48.556 --> 0:09:51.916 So the headquarters of Ebony Magazine were in Chicago, and 0:09:52.036 --> 0:09:56.396 John Johnson had this building that he bought and sort 0:09:56.396 --> 0:09:58.276 of decked it out. You know. He became a really 0:09:58.316 --> 0:10:00.876 wealthy man. The whole family were wealthy because they had 0:10:00.996 --> 0:10:03.796 Jet and Ebony, Negro Digest and they would send them 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:06.956 all over the world. So he would go to all 0:10:06.996 --> 0:10:09.596 these fancy places and all these bands, and they would 0:10:09.636 --> 0:10:11.756 have all this European art on the walls. And he thought, 0:10:11.756 --> 0:10:13.956 when I get my own place, I want it to 0:10:13.996 --> 0:10:17.396 be contemporary Black artists and African pieces. So when you 0:10:17.396 --> 0:10:22.876 see photographs of that building, the Johnson Publishing Building, every 0:10:22.956 --> 0:10:26.356 floor had its own character. There was like swirly carpets 0:10:26.356 --> 0:10:29.396 that had commissioned, the furniture was specially made. There was 0:10:29.436 --> 0:10:31.996 the glass ash trays, and the art on the wall, 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:37.076 and the dog One statues and the Marlean statues. It 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:40.796 was like being in an art installation. And the photos 0:10:40.836 --> 0:10:42.996 it also looked like something from two thousand and one, 0:10:43.036 --> 0:10:47.156 a Space Odyssey, you know, just really like futuristic sixties. 0:10:48.156 --> 0:10:50.956 They really heavily documented it. And it also was a 0:10:50.996 --> 0:10:54.676 center for black Chicago. So when Muhammad Ali was in town, 0:10:54.756 --> 0:10:57.156 he would go to the Johnson Building or when you 0:10:57.196 --> 0:11:00.276 know sha Ka Khan or whoever was passing through, those 0:11:00.356 --> 0:11:03.476 people were always the building was always fizzing with these entertainers. 0:11:03.556 --> 0:11:05.356 So I really liked the idea of that. And then 0:11:05.516 --> 0:11:08.236 just to know the library from that building had gone 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:10.996 to the Arts Bank, Wow, you know, and that's what 0:11:11.036 --> 0:11:12.756 the library was. It had been people who had sent 0:11:12.756 --> 0:11:15.476 their books to try and hope that Ebonie would review it, 0:11:15.956 --> 0:11:19.196 the magazine would review it. So I just couldn't believe 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:21.796 the amount of literature in this library. It was a 0:11:21.916 --> 0:11:24.076 new another look at Chicago for me. 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:26.196 How much time have you spent there? Now? 0:11:26.556 --> 0:11:28.716 I spent loads of time though, because we you know, 0:11:28.716 --> 0:11:30.996 obviously I went on that first visit and then I 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:34.436 came back and did a two week residency, which really 0:11:34.636 --> 0:11:37.516 was immersive. It was freezing cold. It snowed on the 0:11:37.556 --> 0:11:40.916 first day, and the snow didn't melt all the time 0:11:40.956 --> 0:11:42.476 we were there. It never snowed again, but it was 0:11:42.756 --> 0:11:45.276 banked up, you know, it was weak solid. It was 0:11:45.316 --> 0:11:47.676 frozen in England, if you drive into a bank of snow, 0:11:47.716 --> 0:11:50.676 you kind of you know, the car crushes the snow. 0:11:51.276 --> 0:11:53.476 But in Chicago it was so frozen the car would 0:11:53.556 --> 0:11:55.476 just kind of ramp up, like a four wheel drive 0:11:55.516 --> 0:11:58.476 would just kind of ramp up on these huge snow drifts, 0:11:58.476 --> 0:12:00.716 and it was freezing. You know, your eyes would freeze. 0:12:00.796 --> 0:12:03.596 It was November or December when we went. But just 0:12:03.636 --> 0:12:05.556 to be in that building and see people who'd come 0:12:05.556 --> 0:12:08.676 out out and the cold to come to this building 0:12:08.796 --> 0:12:11.836 because there was a dance event happening, because there was 0:12:11.876 --> 0:12:15.756 a music event happening. Carolinia had put this tea party 0:12:15.796 --> 0:12:19.196 and that had it had dance, she was singing, It 0:12:19.236 --> 0:12:22.516 had a contemporary dance performance. It had this tea ceremony 0:12:22.556 --> 0:12:25.556 that everyone engaged in. There was just always so much 0:12:25.636 --> 0:12:27.796 going on. You know. There was this artist who was 0:12:27.796 --> 0:12:30.036 commissioned once a week. He would just do these pop 0:12:30.156 --> 0:12:33.356 ups in various parts of the building and you would 0:12:33.396 --> 0:12:34.756 go and you wouldn't sure whether it's going to be 0:12:34.796 --> 0:12:36.316 in the library or it's going to be in this 0:12:36.436 --> 0:12:37.716 room or that room. You'd just be able to hear 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:39.636 the singing and kind of follow. 0:12:40.196 --> 0:12:40.516 Hopefully. 0:12:40.756 --> 0:12:43.436 I just followed to where it was, and it felt 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:46.036 so special that all this was happening in this really 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:46.956 beautiful space. 0:12:47.316 --> 0:12:49.716 You mentioned in the book too by car Laney that 0:12:49.956 --> 0:12:51.436 there was some like singing exercise. 0:12:51.636 --> 0:12:54.476 Yeah, she is a I guess she's an artist, but 0:12:54.516 --> 0:12:56.996 she also teaches vocals and they have this choir that 0:12:57.036 --> 0:13:01.236 would meet every every week, and they were doing this 0:13:01.356 --> 0:13:04.556 exercise where you moved around the building. We moved around 0:13:04.596 --> 0:13:07.156 this one room and he had to make a single sound. 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:08.956 I can't remember if she gave you the sound or 0:13:09.156 --> 0:13:11.476 that you just chose it. Maybe you just chose it, 0:13:11.516 --> 0:13:15.396 but it was just, you know, one syllable, and you 0:13:15.556 --> 0:13:18.036 had to have an object that you interacted with as 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:20.076 you walked around the space. So it might have been 0:13:20.156 --> 0:13:22.676 that rocking chair, you know. That might have been my object. 0:13:22.756 --> 0:13:25.356 So I had to make the sound as I went around, 0:13:25.356 --> 0:13:27.316 and then each time I came to the object had 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:29.756 to interact with it. Maybe I sat in it, maybe 0:13:29.796 --> 0:13:32.076 I climbed over it, maybe I crawled under it, maybe 0:13:32.076 --> 0:13:34.636 I turned it upside down. But each time it was something. 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:38.116 And because you were so focused on this object and 0:13:38.156 --> 0:13:41.356 doing your thing each time, the part of your brain 0:13:41.396 --> 0:13:45.196 that was concentrating on the singing just became really loosened, 0:13:45.836 --> 0:13:47.876 and so I found the things I was doing when 0:13:47.876 --> 0:13:50.596 I eventually kind of checked back in with it, it 0:13:50.636 --> 0:13:52.476 was really free and really loose, And of course everyone 0:13:52.516 --> 0:13:54.516 else was making their sound as well, so we were 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:57.716 all kind of singing together as a choir, but not 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:01.276 really paying attention to each other consciously but unconsciously in 0:14:01.316 --> 0:14:04.196 our music world, we were so just to hear, like 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:07.916 all these harmonies and sounds and rhythms and textures, and 0:14:08.156 --> 0:14:10.236 you know, you'd be challenged, like the more weird someone 0:14:10.236 --> 0:14:13.796 else's sound was, the more permission it gave you to 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:18.276 do your weird growl or screech or bark or whatever 0:14:18.316 --> 0:14:19.996 it was, because it was all about what am I 0:14:20.036 --> 0:14:22.596 going to do with this chair? Kind of fit my 0:14:22.596 --> 0:14:26.156 body through that side. So it was really mind opening. 0:14:26.316 --> 0:14:31.196 And I also remember saying I wish this was my life, 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:33.436 and then saying to myself, wait, this is my life. 0:14:33.836 --> 0:14:36.476 So I felt like there was this huge contrast between 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:41.876 maybe the way I had thought about my music making practice, 0:14:42.476 --> 0:14:45.596 which at that time had really become try and write 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:48.236 those hits, you know, sit down and really concentrate and 0:14:48.276 --> 0:14:50.396 really make it happen, and really put this pressure on 0:14:50.476 --> 0:14:51.156 yourself and. 0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:52.596 Was that pressure coming from you? 0:14:52.796 --> 0:14:54.876 It didn't start off coming from me, but it was 0:14:54.996 --> 0:14:57.956 very much absorbed by me. When I was making my 0:14:57.996 --> 0:15:00.956 third record, when we came over to Capital in Los Angeles, 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:04.236 you know, bless a record label, I think they had 0:15:04.276 --> 0:15:07.556 seen that I had been successful and they really wanted 0:15:07.596 --> 0:15:12.116 it for me and for themselves again. So definitely with 0:15:12.116 --> 0:15:14.836 that third record, I was kind of how can we 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:17.156 make this work? And you know, I'd had lots of 0:15:18.076 --> 0:15:20.676 times of either playing people music had recorded, or sitting 0:15:20.716 --> 0:15:23.716 there with my guitar in a room full of important 0:15:23.836 --> 0:15:25.996 dudes who were all sort of older than me and 0:15:26.116 --> 0:15:30.076 more powerful, who would just sort of say at the 0:15:30.156 --> 0:15:34.076 end of a song they'd say, I just don't think 0:15:34.076 --> 0:15:36.676 it's the first single. That's what I'd get all the time, 0:15:36.716 --> 0:15:39.316 and so I would definitely be in that position of thinking, well, 0:15:39.356 --> 0:15:42.836 what is this elusive song that's kind of kind of 0:15:42.876 --> 0:15:45.116 smashed the doors in, and of course for me on 0:15:45.196 --> 0:15:47.276 my first record that had been put your records on? 0:15:47.556 --> 0:15:49.956 And did you know when you wrote that, like, were 0:15:49.996 --> 0:15:52.236 you like, oh, this is a single or no, no all? 0:15:52.316 --> 0:15:55.036 I mean, I guess I was definitely thinking the album 0:15:55.076 --> 0:15:57.756 that I had written because everything else was done, I 0:15:57.836 --> 0:16:00.916 was definitely thinking we need another kind of up tempo song, 0:16:01.396 --> 0:16:03.196 so that's all we were thinking. Really was kind of 0:16:03.276 --> 0:16:06.036 the pace. But it came about really easily and it 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:10.236 was really fun. It was really conversational and I liked it. 0:16:10.276 --> 0:16:12.796 So it wasn't labored, whereas I think with my third 0:16:12.836 --> 0:16:15.716 record it was just every try it just felt there 0:16:15.756 --> 0:16:18.796 was so much pressure on it and bless the label again. 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:22.556 You know, the more time and money you sort of 0:16:22.556 --> 0:16:25.636 spend on the thing really wanting to it's like gambling, right, 0:16:25.676 --> 0:16:27.556 You just like keep putting the chips down. 0:16:27.516 --> 0:16:28.996 But at a certain point you're so for you have 0:16:29.036 --> 0:16:30.116 so many chips in it's like. 0:16:30.076 --> 0:16:33.196 Whoa, yeah, it going exactly. It got in a sort 0:16:33.196 --> 0:16:36.076 of too big to Veil's situation for me where it's 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:38.556 just I just it just can't it just can't not 0:16:38.636 --> 0:16:42.396 have an international megasmash on because it's taken so long 0:16:42.516 --> 0:16:45.236 and it's got so much money, and you know, I'm 0:16:45.276 --> 0:16:48.556 a people person. People would lose their jobs if you 0:16:48.636 --> 0:16:50.996 don't do well at a certain point in a label. 0:16:51.036 --> 0:16:52.916 You know, if someone's your guid at the label and 0:16:53.556 --> 0:16:55.876 they've kept saying no She'll do it, you know, just 0:16:55.996 --> 0:16:59.076 keep we just need another one hundred thousand dollars. 0:16:59.156 --> 0:16:59.356 You know. 0:16:59.436 --> 0:17:02.876 It's like the heads will roll, and head did roll. 0:17:02.996 --> 0:17:05.116 So I just was always, you know, like lying in 0:17:05.156 --> 0:17:08.836 bed with that kind of weight of responsibility, like I 0:17:08.876 --> 0:17:14.556 am my failing pop star and my friends are losing 0:17:14.636 --> 0:17:19.556 their jobs because of my inability to produce this thing. 0:17:19.596 --> 0:17:22.356 They pull this thing out of the bag. So then yeah, 0:17:22.396 --> 0:17:25.356 walking around with Kiara just singing these crazy bits of 0:17:25.436 --> 0:17:28.316 music and being with other artists who I thought were brilliant, 0:17:28.356 --> 0:17:31.916 I just thought, yeah, I really remember this thing of 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:37.796 music being freeing and playful and creative and pressureless and fun, 0:17:38.516 --> 0:17:40.836 and I really want to get into that. I want 0:17:40.836 --> 0:17:42.276 that to be my life. And then of course being 0:17:42.436 --> 0:17:44.436 that was my life in Chicago and that building was 0:17:44.436 --> 0:17:48.436 my life, and that led to a whole creative, free 0:17:48.476 --> 0:17:51.956 project in Black Rainbows where I didn't feel the same 0:17:51.956 --> 0:17:55.436 pressures as I did when I was making The Heart 0:17:55.436 --> 0:17:56.396 Speaks and Whispers. 0:17:56.476 --> 0:17:58.156 So so that was the thought, like that I wish 0:17:58.196 --> 0:17:59.516 that music making was fun. 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:01.396 Yeah, I wish I could sort of get back to 0:18:01.596 --> 0:18:06.196 my first love without thinking this is really important, because 0:18:06.236 --> 0:18:09.596 this is it's for your career and it's for the people, 0:18:09.676 --> 0:18:11.716 you know's livelihood. 0:18:12.076 --> 0:18:15.876 Yeah, that's scary. Yeah. I read a book on Moe 0:18:16.116 --> 0:18:19.556 Austin or maybe it's about one the Warner Brothers label 0:18:20.156 --> 0:18:22.316 and but had a lot to do about Mo Austin, 0:18:22.396 --> 0:18:25.316 And there was a story about when they were starting 0:18:26.036 --> 0:18:28.956 some A and R guy did a produced a Van 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:31.036 Dyke Parks record. I think it was like Van Dyke 0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:34.996 Park's first record, and it's very experimental and very cool. 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:37.516 I think it was like the most most money they'd 0:18:37.516 --> 0:18:40.716 ever spent on like a record too, and it didn't 0:18:40.756 --> 0:18:42.916 sell at all, but it was very cool, and so 0:18:43.036 --> 0:18:45.356 he kind of sheepishly went to like Mo and was like, hey, like, 0:18:45.476 --> 0:18:47.996 you know, god of I fucked up, Like you know, 0:18:48.036 --> 0:18:51.076 this was really expensive and it didn't sell, and apparently 0:18:51.116 --> 0:18:53.836 Mo said, well, this is the album good and then 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:57.196 he was like yeah, it's amazing. He's like, that's all 0:18:57.196 --> 0:19:00.796 we can do it? Yes, where's that kind of an 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:01.756 executive these days? 0:19:01.756 --> 0:19:04.396 You know, It's just it's an important thing to say, 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:07.076 I think to be fair to music executives. The way 0:19:07.116 --> 0:19:09.396 that people buy music means that there is and the 0:19:09.436 --> 0:19:12.076 money stream coming in in the same way, you know, 0:19:12.116 --> 0:19:14.356