1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Krin Bailey Ray independently released one of my favorite 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:26,996 Speaker 1: albums of twenty twenty three, Black Rainbows. We had a 3 00:00:27,076 --> 00:00:29,036 Speaker 1: chat over Zoom at the end of the year about 4 00:00:29,036 --> 00:00:31,876 Speaker 1: the place that inspired the album, the Stony Island Arts 5 00:00:31,876 --> 00:00:34,836 Speaker 1: Bank in Chicago, and then when she came to LA 6 00:00:34,996 --> 00:00:37,836 Speaker 1: around Grammy time, we decided to meet up and continue 7 00:00:37,876 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 1: our conversation, not only about the new album and what 8 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:43,196 Speaker 1: it meant to find her own artistic voice again, but 9 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:47,636 Speaker 1: also to discuss reflections Refractions at the Stony Island Arts Bank, 10 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:51,276 Speaker 1: a beautiful book Krin's put together, cataloging the items that 11 00:00:51,316 --> 00:00:55,636 Speaker 1: inspired her new music and her creative awakening. The conversation 12 00:00:55,756 --> 00:00:58,316 Speaker 1: takes us from Krinn recording her third album, The Heart 13 00:00:58,316 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: Speaks and Whispers at Capitol in Hollywood, to finding a 14 00:01:01,516 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: spiritual home in Chicago, to discovering a mid century New 15 00:01:05,556 --> 00:01:08,076 Speaker 1: York subway pageant that led to one of my favorite 16 00:01:08,116 --> 00:01:11,916 Speaker 1: songs on her new album, The rackus New York Transit Queen. 17 00:01:14,756 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 1: This is broken record. I don't notes for the digital age. 18 00:01:18,156 --> 00:01:22,476 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's my conversation with Corinne Bailey Ray. 19 00:01:23,796 --> 00:01:25,036 Speaker 1: Have you recorded here much? 20 00:01:25,596 --> 00:01:29,356 Speaker 2: Yes, I have I did my third album, Capitol, so 21 00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:32,076 Speaker 2: I loved being there. I mean, that's amazing. We came 22 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 2: for seven weeks and we ended up saying for seven months, 23 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 2: I mean, not all in studio A because it would 24 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:38,676 Speaker 2: have you know, bankrupted. 25 00:01:39,156 --> 00:01:39,996 Speaker 1: How much did you spend on? 26 00:01:40,196 --> 00:01:42,116 Speaker 2: Yes, it was a lot. It was a lot, but 27 00:01:42,156 --> 00:01:44,556 Speaker 2: it was worth it because it was James Godson, you know, 28 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:46,596 Speaker 2: who's such a brilliant drummer. And it was just nice 29 00:01:46,636 --> 00:01:48,476 Speaker 2: we all to be in that space and anything you 30 00:01:48,516 --> 00:01:51,796 Speaker 2: played in there you just played G on acoustic guitar thing. Yeah, 31 00:01:51,876 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 2: that's right, a song with just G. Everything sounded good. 32 00:01:55,796 --> 00:01:57,596 Speaker 2: I really liked it. I'd like to go again when 33 00:01:57,636 --> 00:01:59,876 Speaker 2: I was a bit more together, because we didn't quite 34 00:01:59,876 --> 00:02:01,516 Speaker 2: know what we're doing. I'd like to go when it 35 00:02:01,556 --> 00:02:04,076 Speaker 2: was like, we know what the songs are, let's work 36 00:02:04,116 --> 00:02:06,836 Speaker 2: on the arrangements, you know, rehearse and then you can 37 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:07,596 Speaker 2: just be ready to go. 38 00:02:07,676 --> 00:02:10,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, a little room, I mean, I imagine there's some 39 00:02:10,236 --> 00:02:12,516 Speaker 1: inspiration in that building. It's at room for. 40 00:02:12,876 --> 00:02:15,236 Speaker 2: Just the actual sound, you know, space and then the 41 00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 2: echo chamber. Yeah, it's really good. And we went into 42 00:02:18,356 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 2: the echo chamber and it still smells of paint. Wow, 43 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:22,436 Speaker 2: from when it was painted. 44 00:02:23,076 --> 00:02:24,516 Speaker 1: That can't be good, can it. Yeah? 45 00:02:24,516 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 2: I guess that's probably lead paint or something. But where 46 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 2: the air didn't go anywhere, you know, just let you 47 00:02:29,476 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 2: just close the door. So yeah, amazing place. 48 00:02:33,476 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 1: I've only been there a few times, but it's so yeah. 49 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:38,036 Speaker 1: I still you know, I've lived here my whole life, 50 00:02:38,036 --> 00:02:41,436 Speaker 1: but every time I passed that building, isn't it? And 51 00:02:41,436 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: I always worry about now nowadays too, I worry about 52 00:02:43,956 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 1: it when I passed, like I feel some sort of 53 00:02:46,036 --> 00:02:47,636 Speaker 1: like hop you know, I doubt they're going to take 54 00:02:47,636 --> 00:02:49,036 Speaker 1: it down, but I hope, Yeah, I know that. 55 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:51,196 Speaker 2: Do you universal still own it or is it owned 56 00:02:51,236 --> 00:02:53,516 Speaker 2: by someone else? And when I was working there, there 57 00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:56,516 Speaker 2: was a big fuss because they were making big condos nearby, 58 00:02:56,556 --> 00:02:58,916 Speaker 2: but it was disturbing all the underground stuff and that's 59 00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:01,756 Speaker 2: where the echo chambers are. They were like, what's it 60 00:03:01,836 --> 00:03:05,356 Speaker 2: going to do to like acoustics? But I think it's 61 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 2: probably fine. 62 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:08,556 Speaker 1: How's it been in town? It's so I forgot it 63 00:03:08,596 --> 00:03:09,316 Speaker 1: was Grammy. 64 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:12,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's fun. I just won this 65 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:15,396 Speaker 2: award at the Resonator Awards, which is for women who 66 00:03:15,436 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 2: produce an engineer. It's that organization called Move the Needle. 67 00:03:19,356 --> 00:03:21,116 Speaker 2: I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's 68 00:03:21,156 --> 00:03:24,156 Speaker 2: set up by Emily Lazarre. And so the main thing 69 00:03:24,156 --> 00:03:26,116 Speaker 2: they've done is sort of analyzed music. So they made 70 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:28,916 Speaker 2: this analysis of everything that came out last year, and 71 00:03:28,996 --> 00:03:30,716 Speaker 2: of all the songs that came out last year and 72 00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:33,716 Speaker 2: all the records, there was only six just over six 73 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:37,396 Speaker 2: percent that either had a woman producer or engineer. So 74 00:03:37,436 --> 00:03:39,876 Speaker 2: they're just looking at how they can kind of bring 75 00:03:39,916 --> 00:03:44,796 Speaker 2: equity to these organizations, including mentorships for young women. And 76 00:03:45,196 --> 00:03:47,396 Speaker 2: it's mostly coming out of school and you know, being 77 00:03:47,996 --> 00:03:51,316 Speaker 2: the person who trains with a mixed engineer, because that's 78 00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:52,356 Speaker 2: the seat you really want. 79 00:03:52,196 --> 00:03:54,156 Speaker 1: To be in, right, That's how you get there. 80 00:03:54,396 --> 00:03:56,756 Speaker 2: That's how you get experienced. You can learn all you 81 00:03:56,756 --> 00:03:59,116 Speaker 2: want to college, but when you're actually working on records 82 00:03:59,156 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 2: every single day and sitting in rooms and working with artists, 83 00:04:02,356 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 2: that's when you really become a master. So I think 84 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 2: they set up quite a few internships and there's camps, 85 00:04:08,116 --> 00:04:09,996 Speaker 2: and then there were loads of big writers there, like 86 00:04:10,116 --> 00:04:14,556 Speaker 2: Linda Perry was there. She's really good and she's really honest. 87 00:04:15,156 --> 00:04:18,476 Speaker 2: And then alanis Morrissette was winning an award, a kind 88 00:04:18,476 --> 00:04:21,996 Speaker 2: of trailblazer award, and she's such a big writer. Her 89 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 2: record Jagged Little Pill is the second biggest selling record 90 00:04:25,436 --> 00:04:26,196 Speaker 2: of all time? 91 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:27,156 Speaker 1: Is that true? 92 00:04:27,156 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 2: Which I didn't see. It's like thriller then Jagged Little Pill. 93 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 2: Whoa yeah, So when it was eighty eighty five million recorder, 94 00:04:35,316 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 2: I could move for that record, and obviously all over 95 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 2: the world eighty five million. 96 00:04:39,636 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: Records, five million thriller like below, just below thriller rilla. 97 00:04:43,676 --> 00:04:45,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking, is it a Beatles record or 98 00:04:45,676 --> 00:04:48,276 Speaker 2: but yeah, it's thriller, my yeah, I guess it's like 99 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:50,236 Speaker 2: it's also with how which chart you're looking at and 100 00:04:50,236 --> 00:04:53,596 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. But yeah, that's a massive. 101 00:04:54,316 --> 00:04:56,396 Speaker 2: But then they were just highlighting all these different engineers 102 00:04:56,436 --> 00:04:58,076 Speaker 2: and producers that I'd never heard of that were doing 103 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:00,476 Speaker 2: big things. They're all sort of Grammy nominated this year. 104 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:03,716 Speaker 2: And this woman who's kind of Jack Antonof's right hand 105 00:05:03,756 --> 00:05:07,876 Speaker 2: woman who does everything you know, yeah, exactly, Yeah, she's 106 00:05:07,956 --> 00:05:10,596 Speaker 2: the mixed engineer and he just won't work with anyone 107 00:05:10,596 --> 00:05:11,636 Speaker 2: Else's amazing. 108 00:05:11,716 --> 00:05:13,716 Speaker 1: Would you ever produce it? Would you ever work in 109 00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:15,796 Speaker 1: that capacity? Like help another artist? 110 00:05:15,836 --> 00:05:17,876 Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't feel myself to be prolific 111 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:20,396 Speaker 2: enough to kind of be a producer for other people. 112 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 2: But obviously I love producing my own music. I mean, 113 00:05:22,996 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 2: maybe in the. 114 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:25,276 Speaker 1: Future I could do that. 115 00:05:25,916 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 2: I just feel like it's not like, oh, I've got 116 00:05:28,636 --> 00:05:30,516 Speaker 2: ten records out and then I've got, you know, two 117 00:05:30,516 --> 00:05:32,596 Speaker 2: spare months to produce someone else. I feel like I'm 118 00:05:32,636 --> 00:05:35,876 Speaker 2: always just trying to like get it right for myself. 119 00:05:36,756 --> 00:05:39,036 Speaker 2: I did get asked recently to work with someone, and 120 00:05:39,156 --> 00:05:41,236 Speaker 2: you know, maybe at a different point in my career 121 00:05:41,796 --> 00:05:43,876 Speaker 2: I could do it. Or if I saw someone who thought, oh, 122 00:05:43,876 --> 00:05:46,396 Speaker 2: they're really brilliant and they you know, they need a 123 00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 2: bit of help with the direction, and they were up 124 00:05:49,636 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 2: for it. I think it's hard sometimes an artist producer. 125 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:54,396 Speaker 2: I've worked with artist producers before where they have a 126 00:05:54,436 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 2: really strong opinion of how it should be. Whereas I 127 00:05:56,876 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 2: feel like the best producers like we could do it 128 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:01,436 Speaker 2: like this or this or this or this, I've got 129 00:06:01,476 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 2: all the different angles, Whereas I won't have loads of ideas. 130 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 2: It's just with my own music, I just think it 131 00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:10,276 Speaker 2: has to be this, you know direction. 132 00:06:10,556 --> 00:06:13,196 Speaker 1: You know. It's funny. I re listened again to like 133 00:06:13,236 --> 00:06:18,356 Speaker 1: every record in chronological way. Every record is different. Yeah. Yeah, 134 00:06:18,396 --> 00:06:23,396 Speaker 1: so you at least got four different you know angles. 135 00:06:23,636 --> 00:06:26,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, No, I do really love it. I just 136 00:06:26,276 --> 00:06:28,636 Speaker 2: think it takes it takes me a long time, you know, 137 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 2: with Hero and the Tortoise or something. 138 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're always like writing. 139 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:35,316 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm always in phases. So I think 140 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:37,716 Speaker 2: with this record, I'm still very much in the phase 141 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:42,036 Speaker 2: of tell the stories, communicate the stories. It feels much 142 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:44,556 Speaker 2: bigger than me. It's really different from talking about your 143 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:47,476 Speaker 2: own life compared to talking about these stories in this place, 144 00:06:48,116 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 2: and I feel like I'm in the business of connecting people. 145 00:06:51,276 --> 00:06:51,436 Speaker 1: You know. 146 00:06:51,516 --> 00:06:55,076 Speaker 2: I spoke to a radio presenter who's just over at 147 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:59,196 Speaker 2: Tavis Smiley's radio station. But I remember specifically the interview 148 00:06:59,276 --> 00:07:02,116 Speaker 2: what we talked about. You know, we talked about Aretha 149 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:03,596 Speaker 2: Franklin's Amazing Grace. 150 00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:06,116 Speaker 1: Grace read it for you, didn't. 151 00:07:05,876 --> 00:07:07,716 Speaker 2: He He was like, do you know about this record? 152 00:07:07,756 --> 00:07:09,956 Speaker 2: And I said, yes, I love that record, and we 153 00:07:10,036 --> 00:07:12,036 Speaker 2: got to talk about that. You know, remember, so this 154 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 2: what's sacred, what spiritual, how people come out of the 155 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:17,316 Speaker 2: church and they kind of punished for it to a 156 00:07:17,356 --> 00:07:19,356 Speaker 2: certain extent, or you know, you're really on your own, 157 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:23,116 Speaker 2: But how can you ever separate music from spirituality and 158 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:23,916 Speaker 2: all this? 159 00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:26,956 Speaker 1: That's blowing my mind because that's actually the conversation. I 160 00:07:26,996 --> 00:07:29,156 Speaker 1: completely forgot about it. You said, that's how I discovered 161 00:07:29,196 --> 00:07:29,916 Speaker 1: that record. 162 00:07:30,156 --> 00:07:34,796 Speaker 2: Really from that conversation. Really, yeah, you guys talking about Wow. 163 00:07:35,196 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 2: So he was, yeah, that works then, right, he was 164 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:39,916 Speaker 2: recommending it to me. But whoever was watching it, Yeah, 165 00:07:39,916 --> 00:07:42,836 Speaker 2: that's such a good album. And it's just a community 166 00:07:42,956 --> 00:07:43,916 Speaker 2: choir who were. 167 00:07:44,476 --> 00:07:45,916 Speaker 1: Excellent, insanely good. 168 00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know they just live nearby and they 169 00:07:47,996 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 2: go to that church. Yeah, you know, it's not the 170 00:07:49,956 --> 00:07:52,876 Speaker 2: all star gospel choir of you know, it's just not 171 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:54,076 Speaker 2: local people. 172 00:07:53,956 --> 00:07:57,596 Speaker 1: Speaking of like spiritual homes. Got to look through the book. 173 00:07:57,796 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: It's wild how Chicago became this kind of spiritual home. 174 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:06,356 Speaker 1: It's a second home for either way you're I. 175 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 2: Mean, Chicago just became and still is for me. It's 176 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:12,676 Speaker 2: kind of the center of the world for black stuff 177 00:08:12,756 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 2: for me. You know, in terms of thinking about the 178 00:08:16,516 --> 00:08:20,236 Speaker 2: huge migration that happened after the Civil War and after abolition, 179 00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:23,596 Speaker 2: where did the majority of people from the South want 180 00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:26,316 Speaker 2: to go? The enslaved people Obviously a lot of people 181 00:08:26,356 --> 00:08:30,236 Speaker 2: stayed in the South and really identified with those states 182 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:33,716 Speaker 2: and being in the land and being farmers and being 183 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 2: close to nature. But so many people wanted to go 184 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:40,476 Speaker 2: to Chicago, you know, the big city. So many people came, 185 00:08:40,516 --> 00:08:42,356 Speaker 2: and so you think of all those the mixture of 186 00:08:42,396 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 2: all those different cultures. I mean, I sort of think 187 00:08:45,836 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 2: it's all those different Africans that have lived in America 188 00:08:49,916 --> 00:08:54,276 Speaker 2: for generations, and all the cultures of the various states, 189 00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 2: and even the cultures of the various plantations, you know, 190 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:02,116 Speaker 2: impacting to what extent people were allowed freedom to move 191 00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 2: around because of course some enslaved people were hired out, 192 00:09:05,156 --> 00:09:07,676 Speaker 2: you know, on different jobs. They drove the masses around, 193 00:09:07,716 --> 00:09:10,836 Speaker 2: you know, Dave the Potter who made pots for people 194 00:09:10,916 --> 00:09:14,836 Speaker 2: around around the plantation delivered them and so just what 195 00:09:14,956 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: that was like. And then coming to Chicago and then 196 00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 2: what they brought with them, their traditions, their culture, their food. 197 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:23,796 Speaker 2: But yeah, Chicago, I mean I feel like I knew 198 00:09:23,796 --> 00:09:27,076 Speaker 2: of Chicago as a you know, being a British person, 199 00:09:27,116 --> 00:09:32,196 Speaker 2: a European person, as like the mab the Mafia, Yeah, 200 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 2: the Windy City, you know, the musical Chicago. I didn't 201 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 2: think of it as being this center of Black thought 202 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 2: and space. You know, I certainly wouldn't have thought, oh, 203 00:09:43,916 --> 00:09:48,516 Speaker 2: Ebony Magazine was Chicago, and then was it? Yeah? Yeah, 204 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 2: So the headquarters of Ebony Magazine were in Chicago, and 205 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:56,396 Speaker 2: John Johnson had this building that he bought and sort 206 00:09:56,396 --> 00:09:58,276 Speaker 2: of decked it out. You know. He became a really 207 00:09:58,316 --> 00:10:00,876 Speaker 2: wealthy man. The whole family were wealthy because they had 208 00:10:00,996 --> 00:10:03,796 Speaker 2: Jet and Ebony, Negro Digest and they would send them 209 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:06,956 Speaker 2: all over the world. So he would go to all 210 00:10:06,996 --> 00:10:09,596 Speaker 2: these fancy places and all these bands, and they would 211 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:11,756 Speaker 2: have all this European art on the walls. And he thought, 212 00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:13,956 Speaker 2: when I get my own place, I want it to 213 00:10:13,996 --> 00:10:17,396 Speaker 2: be contemporary Black artists and African pieces. So when you 214 00:10:17,396 --> 00:10:22,876 Speaker 2: see photographs of that building, the Johnson Publishing Building, every 215 00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:26,356 Speaker 2: floor had its own character. There was like swirly carpets 216 00:10:26,356 --> 00:10:29,396 Speaker 2: that had commissioned, the furniture was specially made. There was 217 00:10:29,436 --> 00:10:31,996 Speaker 2: the glass ash trays, and the art on the wall, 218 00:10:32,156 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 2: and the dog One statues and the Marlean statues. It 219 00:10:37,116 --> 00:10:40,796 Speaker 2: was like being in an art installation. And the photos 220 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 2: it also looked like something from two thousand and one, 221 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:47,156 Speaker 2: a Space Odyssey, you know, just really like futuristic sixties. 222 00:10:48,156 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 2: They really heavily documented it. And it also was a 223 00:10:50,996 --> 00:10:54,676 Speaker 2: center for black Chicago. So when Muhammad Ali was in town, 224 00:10:54,756 --> 00:10:57,156 Speaker 2: he would go to the Johnson Building or when you 225 00:10:57,196 --> 00:11:00,276 Speaker 2: know sha Ka Khan or whoever was passing through, those 226 00:11:00,356 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 2: people were always the building was always fizzing with these entertainers. 227 00:11:03,556 --> 00:11:05,356 Speaker 2: So I really liked the idea of that. And then 228 00:11:05,516 --> 00:11:08,236 Speaker 2: just to know the library from that building had gone 229 00:11:08,236 --> 00:11:10,996 Speaker 2: to the Arts Bank, Wow, you know, and that's what 230 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:12,756 Speaker 2: the library was. It had been people who had sent 231 00:11:12,756 --> 00:11:15,476 Speaker 2: their books to try and hope that Ebonie would review it, 232 00:11:15,956 --> 00:11:19,196 Speaker 2: the magazine would review it. So I just couldn't believe 233 00:11:19,196 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 2: the amount of literature in this library. It was a 234 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 2: new another look at Chicago for me. 235 00:11:24,276 --> 00:11:26,196 Speaker 1: How much time have you spent there? Now? 236 00:11:26,556 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 2: I spent loads of time though, because we you know, 237 00:11:28,716 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: obviously I went on that first visit and then I 238 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:34,436 Speaker 2: came back and did a two week residency, which really 239 00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:37,516 Speaker 2: was immersive. It was freezing cold. It snowed on the 240 00:11:37,556 --> 00:11:40,916 Speaker 2: first day, and the snow didn't melt all the time 241 00:11:40,956 --> 00:11:42,476 Speaker 2: we were there. It never snowed again, but it was 242 00:11:42,756 --> 00:11:45,276 Speaker 2: banked up, you know, it was weak solid. It was 243 00:11:45,316 --> 00:11:47,676 Speaker 2: frozen in England, if you drive into a bank of snow, 244 00:11:47,716 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 2: you kind of you know, the car crushes the snow. 245 00:11:51,276 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 2: But in Chicago it was so frozen the car would 246 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:55,476 Speaker 2: just kind of ramp up, like a four wheel drive 247 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:58,476 Speaker 2: would just kind of ramp up on these huge snow drifts, 248 00:11:58,476 --> 00:12:00,716 Speaker 2: and it was freezing. You know, your eyes would freeze. 249 00:12:00,796 --> 00:12:03,596 Speaker 2: It was November or December when we went. But just 250 00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 2: to be in that building and see people who'd come 251 00:12:05,556 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 2: out out and the cold to come to this building 252 00:12:08,796 --> 00:12:11,836 Speaker 2: because there was a dance event happening, because there was 253 00:12:11,876 --> 00:12:15,756 Speaker 2: a music event happening. Carolinia had put this tea party 254 00:12:15,796 --> 00:12:19,196 Speaker 2: and that had it had dance, she was singing, It 255 00:12:19,236 --> 00:12:22,516 Speaker 2: had a contemporary dance performance. It had this tea ceremony 256 00:12:22,556 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 2: that everyone engaged in. There was just always so much 257 00:12:25,636 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 2: going on. You know. There was this artist who was 258 00:12:27,796 --> 00:12:30,036 Speaker 2: commissioned once a week. He would just do these pop 259 00:12:30,156 --> 00:12:33,356 Speaker 2: ups in various parts of the building and you would 260 00:12:33,396 --> 00:12:34,756 Speaker 2: go and you wouldn't sure whether it's going to be 261 00:12:34,796 --> 00:12:36,316 Speaker 2: in the library or it's going to be in this 262 00:12:36,436 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 2: room or that room. You'd just be able to hear 263 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:39,636 Speaker 2: the singing and kind of follow. 264 00:12:40,196 --> 00:12:40,516 Speaker 1: Hopefully. 265 00:12:40,756 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: I just followed to where it was, and it felt 266 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:46,036 Speaker 2: so special that all this was happening in this really 267 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:46,956 Speaker 2: beautiful space. 268 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:49,716 Speaker 1: You mentioned in the book too by car Laney that 269 00:12:49,956 --> 00:12:51,436 Speaker 1: there was some like singing exercise. 270 00:12:51,636 --> 00:12:54,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, she is a I guess she's an artist, but 271 00:12:54,516 --> 00:12:56,996 Speaker 2: she also teaches vocals and they have this choir that 272 00:12:57,036 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 2: would meet every every week, and they were doing this 273 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,556 Speaker 2: exercise where you moved around the building. We moved around 274 00:13:04,596 --> 00:13:07,156 Speaker 2: this one room and he had to make a single sound. 275 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:08,956 Speaker 2: I can't remember if she gave you the sound or 276 00:13:09,156 --> 00:13:11,476 Speaker 2: that you just chose it. Maybe you just chose it, 277 00:13:11,516 --> 00:13:15,396 Speaker 2: but it was just, you know, one syllable, and you 278 00:13:15,556 --> 00:13:18,036 Speaker 2: had to have an object that you interacted with as 279 00:13:18,036 --> 00:13:20,076 Speaker 2: you walked around the space. So it might have been 280 00:13:20,156 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 2: that rocking chair, you know. That might have been my object. 281 00:13:22,756 --> 00:13:25,356 Speaker 2: So I had to make the sound as I went around, 282 00:13:25,356 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 2: and then each time I came to the object had 283 00:13:27,316 --> 00:13:29,756 Speaker 2: to interact with it. Maybe I sat in it, maybe 284 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:32,076 Speaker 2: I climbed over it, maybe I crawled under it, maybe 285 00:13:32,076 --> 00:13:34,636 Speaker 2: I turned it upside down. But each time it was something. 286 00:13:35,316 --> 00:13:38,116 Speaker 2: And because you were so focused on this object and 287 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:41,356 Speaker 2: doing your thing each time, the part of your brain 288 00:13:41,396 --> 00:13:45,196 Speaker 2: that was concentrating on the singing just became really loosened, 289 00:13:45,836 --> 00:13:47,876 Speaker 2: and so I found the things I was doing when 290 00:13:47,876 --> 00:13:50,596 Speaker 2: I eventually kind of checked back in with it, it 291 00:13:50,636 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 2: was really free and really loose, And of course everyone 292 00:13:52,516 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 2: else was making their sound as well, so we were 293 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:57,716 Speaker 2: all kind of singing together as a choir, but not 294 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 2: really paying attention to each other consciously but unconsciously in 295 00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:04,196 Speaker 2: our music world, we were so just to hear, like 296 00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:07,916 Speaker 2: all these harmonies and sounds and rhythms and textures, and 297 00:14:08,156 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 2: you know, you'd be challenged, like the more weird someone 298 00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:13,796 Speaker 2: else's sound was, the more permission it gave you to 299 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:18,276 Speaker 2: do your weird growl or screech or bark or whatever 300 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:19,996 Speaker 2: it was, because it was all about what am I 301 00:14:20,036 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 2: going to do with this chair? Kind of fit my 302 00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 2: body through that side. So it was really mind opening. 303 00:14:26,316 --> 00:14:31,196 Speaker 2: And I also remember saying I wish this was my life, 304 00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:33,436 Speaker 2: and then saying to myself, wait, this is my life. 305 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 2: So I felt like there was this huge contrast between 306 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 2: maybe the way I had thought about my music making practice, 307 00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:45,596 Speaker 2: which at that time had really become try and write 308 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,236 Speaker 2: those hits, you know, sit down and really concentrate and 309 00:14:48,276 --> 00:14:50,396 Speaker 2: really make it happen, and really put this pressure on 310 00:14:50,476 --> 00:14:51,156 Speaker 2: yourself and. 311 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 1: Was that pressure coming from you? 312 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:54,876 Speaker 2: It didn't start off coming from me, but it was 313 00:14:54,996 --> 00:14:57,956 Speaker 2: very much absorbed by me. When I was making my 314 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 2: third record, when we came over to Capital in Los Angeles, 315 00:15:02,036 --> 00:15:04,236 Speaker 2: you know, bless a record label, I think they had 316 00:15:04,276 --> 00:15:07,556 Speaker 2: seen that I had been successful and they really wanted 317 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 2: it for me and for themselves again. So definitely with 318 00:15:12,116 --> 00:15:14,836 Speaker 2: that third record, I was kind of how can we 319 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:17,156 Speaker 2: make this work? And you know, I'd had lots of 320 00:15:18,076 --> 00:15:20,676 Speaker 2: times of either playing people music had recorded, or sitting 321 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:23,716 Speaker 2: there with my guitar in a room full of important 322 00:15:23,836 --> 00:15:25,996 Speaker 2: dudes who were all sort of older than me and 323 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:30,076 Speaker 2: more powerful, who would just sort of say at the 324 00:15:30,156 --> 00:15:34,076 Speaker 2: end of a song they'd say, I just don't think 325 00:15:34,076 --> 00:15:36,676 Speaker 2: it's the first single. That's what I'd get all the time, 326 00:15:36,716 --> 00:15:39,316 Speaker 2: and so I would definitely be in that position of thinking, well, 327 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 2: what is this elusive song that's kind of kind of 328 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,116 Speaker 2: smashed the doors in, and of course for me on 329 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:47,276 Speaker 2: my first record that had been put your records on? 330 00:15:47,556 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 1: And did you know when you wrote that, like, were 331 00:15:49,996 --> 00:15:52,236 Speaker 1: you like, oh, this is a single or no, no all? 332 00:15:52,316 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I was definitely thinking the album 333 00:15:55,076 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 2: that I had written because everything else was done, I 334 00:15:57,836 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 2: was definitely thinking we need another kind of up tempo song, 335 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 2: so that's all we were thinking. Really was kind of 336 00:16:03,276 --> 00:16:06,036 Speaker 2: the pace. But it came about really easily and it 337 00:16:06,076 --> 00:16:10,236 Speaker 2: was really fun. It was really conversational and I liked it. 338 00:16:10,276 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 2: So it wasn't labored, whereas I think with my third 339 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:15,716 Speaker 2: record it was just every try it just felt there 340 00:16:15,756 --> 00:16:18,796 Speaker 2: was so much pressure on it and bless the label again. 341 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 2: You know, the more time and money you sort of 342 00:16:22,556 --> 00:16:25,636 Speaker 2: spend on the thing really wanting to it's like gambling, right, 343 00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:27,556 Speaker 2: You just like keep putting the chips down. 344 00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:28,996 Speaker 1: But at a certain point you're so for you have 345 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 1: so many chips in it's like. 346 00:16:30,076 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 2: Whoa, yeah, it going exactly. It got in a sort 347 00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:36,076 Speaker 2: of too big to Veil's situation for me where it's 348 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:38,556 Speaker 2: just I just it just can't it just can't not 349 00:16:38,636 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 2: have an international megasmash on because it's taken so long 350 00:16:42,516 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 2: and it's got so much money, and you know, I'm 351 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 2: a people person. People would lose their jobs if you 352 00:16:48,636 --> 00:16:50,996 Speaker 2: don't do well at a certain point in a label. 353 00:16:51,036 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 2: You know, if someone's your guid at the label and 354 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:55,876 Speaker 2: they've kept saying no She'll do it, you know, just 355 00:16:55,996 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 2: keep we just need another one hundred thousand dollars. 356 00:16:59,156 --> 00:16:59,356 Speaker 1: You know. 357 00:16:59,436 --> 00:17:02,876 Speaker 2: It's like the heads will roll, and head did roll. 358 00:17:02,996 --> 00:17:05,116 Speaker 2: So I just was always, you know, like lying in 359 00:17:05,156 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 2: bed with that kind of weight of responsibility, like I 360 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 2: am my failing pop star and my friends are losing 361 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:19,556 Speaker 2: their jobs because of my inability to produce this thing. 362 00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 2: They pull this thing out of the bag. So then yeah, 363 00:17:22,396 --> 00:17:25,356 Speaker 2: walking around with Kiara just singing these crazy bits of 364 00:17:25,436 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 2: music and being with other artists who I thought were brilliant, 365 00:17:28,356 --> 00:17:31,916 Speaker 2: I just thought, yeah, I really remember this thing of 366 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:37,796 Speaker 2: music being freeing and playful and creative and pressureless and fun, 367 00:17:38,516 --> 00:17:40,836 Speaker 2: and I really want to get into that. I want 368 00:17:40,836 --> 00:17:42,276 Speaker 2: that to be my life. And then of course being 369 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 2: that was my life in Chicago and that building was 370 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 2: my life, and that led to a whole creative, free 371 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 2: project in Black Rainbows where I didn't feel the same 372 00:17:51,956 --> 00:17:55,436 Speaker 2: pressures as I did when I was making The Heart 373 00:17:55,436 --> 00:17:56,396 Speaker 2: Speaks and Whispers. 374 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,156 Speaker 1: So so that was the thought, like that I wish 375 00:17:58,196 --> 00:17:59,516 Speaker 1: that music making was fun. 376 00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:01,396 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish I could sort of get back to 377 00:18:01,596 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 2: my first love without thinking this is really important, because 378 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:09,596 Speaker 2: this is it's for your career and it's for the people, 379 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:11,716 Speaker 2: you know's livelihood. 380 00:18:12,076 --> 00:18:15,876 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's scary. Yeah. I read a book on Moe 381 00:18:16,116 --> 00:18:19,556 Speaker 1: Austin or maybe it's about one the Warner Brothers label 382 00:18:20,156 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 1: and but had a lot to do about Mo Austin, 383 00:18:22,396 --> 00:18:25,316 Speaker 1: And there was a story about when they were starting 384 00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 1: some A and R guy did a produced a Van 385 00:18:29,036 --> 00:18:31,036 Speaker 1: Dyke Parks record. I think it was like Van Dyke 386 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:34,996 Speaker 1: Park's first record, and it's very experimental and very cool. 387 00:18:35,596 --> 00:18:37,516 Speaker 1: I think it was like the most most money they'd 388 00:18:37,516 --> 00:18:40,716 Speaker 1: ever spent on like a record too, and it didn't 389 00:18:40,756 --> 00:18:42,916 Speaker 1: sell at all, but it was very cool, and so 390 00:18:43,036 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: he kind of sheepishly went to like Mo and was like, hey, like, 391 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:47,996 Speaker 1: you know, god of I fucked up, Like you know, 392 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,076 Speaker 1: this was really expensive and it didn't sell, and apparently 393 00:18:51,116 --> 00:18:53,836 Speaker 1: Mo said, well, this is the album good and then 394 00:18:53,876 --> 00:18:57,196 Speaker 1: he was like yeah, it's amazing. He's like, that's all 395 00:18:57,196 --> 00:19:00,796 Speaker 1: we can do it? Yes, where's that kind of an 396 00:19:00,796 --> 00:19:01,756 Speaker 1: executive these days? 397 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:04,396 Speaker 2: You know, It's just it's an important thing to say, 398 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 2: I think to be fair to music executives. The way 399 00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:09,396 Speaker 2: that people buy music means that there is and the 400 00:19:09,436 --> 00:19:12,076 Speaker 2: money stream coming in in the same way, you know, 401 00:19:12,116 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 2: I always say to people with my first record, if 402 00:19:14,396 --> 00:19:17,556 Speaker 2: you wanted to hear, for example, like a star, you 403 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:20,036 Speaker 2: could sit by the radio and hope it came one, 404 00:19:20,516 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 2: or you could go to the shop and buy the 405 00:19:22,716 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 2: CD or vinyl or in India tape. But now if 406 00:19:26,876 --> 00:19:28,956 Speaker 2: you want to hear a song, you can just stream it. 407 00:19:29,036 --> 00:19:31,436 Speaker 2: But of course the streaming the record doesn't bring that 408 00:19:31,556 --> 00:19:34,956 Speaker 2: much money to the artist. Yeah, there's a big gap 409 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:36,996 Speaker 2: now between I love that song, I have to hear 410 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:38,876 Speaker 2: it right now, or you could listen to it on YouTube, 411 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:40,916 Speaker 2: which is completely free and none of the money goes 412 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:41,436 Speaker 2: to artist. 413 00:19:41,556 --> 00:19:43,316 Speaker 1: But is the money going to the label though? 414 00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:45,516 Speaker 2: Now the money is going to label. Yeah, but it's 415 00:19:45,556 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 2: the same amount of money going Maybe maybe it is, 416 00:19:49,196 --> 00:19:52,516 Speaker 2: and maybe they're sort of all good, but the artists aren't. 417 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:54,036 Speaker 2: Like I would love to know more about it. I 418 00:19:54,036 --> 00:19:56,516 Speaker 2: feel like someone like Taylor Swift would know the breakdown. 419 00:19:56,956 --> 00:19:59,956 Speaker 1: What she knows she's thinking account of everything that's going on. 420 00:20:00,076 --> 00:20:02,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's like, let me just rerecord all my records, 421 00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:07,396 Speaker 2: you know. But yeah, I think there is money somewhere, 422 00:20:07,436 --> 00:20:09,356 Speaker 2: but it's definitely not with the artist. I mean, I 423 00:20:09,396 --> 00:20:11,596 Speaker 2: feel really lucky because I got to have that phase. 424 00:20:11,716 --> 00:20:14,996 Speaker 2: But I think for new artists it can sometimes feel 425 00:20:14,996 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 2: for them that the making of the music is just 426 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,076 Speaker 2: the start, and that if they can then spin their 427 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:23,476 Speaker 2: good music into kind of making themselves a cool brand, 428 00:20:23,636 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 2: then maybe they can get the sponsorship that they need 429 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:28,596 Speaker 2: to go on tour to Yeah. You know, so it's 430 00:20:28,636 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 2: really hard for artists. They're like, Okay, I've made a 431 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:33,876 Speaker 2: great record, but now I need to I don't know, 432 00:20:33,956 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 2: get my Instagram figures up so that I can where 433 00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:40,116 Speaker 2: these trainers to pay to go on the road. I 434 00:20:40,156 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 2: don't know. 435 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:43,076 Speaker 1: I have a friend who I didn't really know to 436 00:20:43,116 --> 00:20:44,916 Speaker 1: be a music person, but all of a sudden they 437 00:20:44,916 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: have a job now as an A and R person, 438 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:53,036 Speaker 1: And they were on Instagram on their little story complaining 439 00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:56,756 Speaker 1: the video themselves, saying, you know, I'm spending all day 440 00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:00,316 Speaker 1: long going through music, and I'm founding artists and I 441 00:21:00,356 --> 00:21:02,316 Speaker 1: really like their music, and then I'm going to their 442 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: page and they're not promoting themselves. So why would I 443 00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: invest in you if you really Oh. 444 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:11,316 Speaker 2: Wait wait wait wait wait wait, yeah, that's the whole deal. 445 00:21:11,716 --> 00:21:13,756 Speaker 2: I'm going to a page and they're not. It's almost 446 00:21:13,756 --> 00:21:17,156 Speaker 2: as though they're spending all the time recording music, you know, 447 00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 2: all the time sitting in front of a camera telling 448 00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:22,676 Speaker 2: us what shoes they're like, or like what products are 449 00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:25,836 Speaker 2: using there. Yeah, I think that's really crazy. And also 450 00:21:26,356 --> 00:21:30,396 Speaker 2: being a self publicist is in I feel it's kind 451 00:21:30,436 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 2: of counter to the feeling of being an artist, right. 452 00:21:33,636 --> 00:21:35,596 Speaker 2: The feeling of being an artist is like here I 453 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:40,596 Speaker 2: am with my cup full. I humbly bring it to 454 00:21:40,676 --> 00:21:45,436 Speaker 2: the world as an offering. You know, it's being a promoter. 455 00:21:45,516 --> 00:21:48,276 Speaker 2: It's like I am the ship. You need to listen 456 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 2: to me. This is the best thing you've ever you know, 457 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:54,836 Speaker 2: some aret takes out, like certain certain wedges of hip 458 00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 2: hop like that have that. 459 00:21:58,196 --> 00:22:00,716 Speaker 1: Like you know that might have been a reserve space 460 00:22:00,756 --> 00:22:04,956 Speaker 1: for like the superstar at some point, like the Bruce Springsteen. 461 00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:07,996 Speaker 1: I can kind of be both the little. 462 00:22:07,796 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 2: Bit here I am the boss, yeah or whatever, or 463 00:22:09,956 --> 00:22:13,076 Speaker 2: like a Kanye is you know where he was at 464 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 2: one point with just like people love that kind of swagger. 465 00:22:15,196 --> 00:22:17,356 Speaker 2: But if you're just sitting in your room playing a 466 00:22:17,396 --> 00:22:19,716 Speaker 2: song on your acoustic guitar or you on your sampler 467 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:22,996 Speaker 2: or whatever, you've got to just hope that someone's into it. 468 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:25,596 Speaker 2: And I don't know, are we getting. Are we only 469 00:22:25,636 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 2: getting artists who have got a kind of a weird 470 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:31,236 Speaker 2: distance between what they who they are and they making 471 00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:34,916 Speaker 2: and then who they are looking at themselves from the 472 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:38,316 Speaker 2: outside thinking what are my marketable traits? Yeah, I just 473 00:22:38,316 --> 00:22:41,636 Speaker 2: feel like there's something really ill at ease with that 474 00:22:41,716 --> 00:22:43,236 Speaker 2: for me. But yeah, I know that that's how a 475 00:22:43,356 --> 00:22:45,756 Speaker 2: in our works. It's like they look at the numbers 476 00:22:45,796 --> 00:22:47,556 Speaker 2: and they say, well, if you haven't got enough followers, 477 00:22:48,276 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 2: then there must be something wrong. Instead of thinking we 478 00:22:51,476 --> 00:22:57,556 Speaker 2: can help you get followers, we can invest your platform. Yeah. Yeah, 479 00:22:57,636 --> 00:22:59,636 Speaker 2: so I think it's hard for new artists. But I mean, 480 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:02,236 Speaker 2: obviously there are lots of great artists coming through, but 481 00:23:02,276 --> 00:23:05,356 Speaker 2: it's generally people who know how to get that ring 482 00:23:05,476 --> 00:23:09,836 Speaker 2: light on and get that content done, and that maybe 483 00:23:10,196 --> 00:23:12,316 Speaker 2: be prohibitive to other kinds of artists. 484 00:23:12,436 --> 00:23:15,716 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, after the break, we'll be back with more 485 00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:23,196 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Karen Bailey Ray. We're back with 486 00:23:23,316 --> 00:23:26,836 Speaker 1: Karen Bailey Ray in the book too. You say it's 487 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:28,836 Speaker 1: been a real journey for me in music in terms 488 00:23:28,876 --> 00:23:31,596 Speaker 1: of what I've wanted to say and how much space 489 00:23:31,636 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 1: there is for it. Yeah, just struck me. 490 00:23:35,436 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 2: What did you mean by that, I feel like, now 491 00:23:38,356 --> 00:23:41,556 Speaker 2: it's a revelation. There's as much space as you imagine 492 00:23:41,596 --> 00:23:44,836 Speaker 2: there to be if you can uncouple from the idea 493 00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:49,796 Speaker 2: that you're trying to make massive hit music, Like I 494 00:23:49,836 --> 00:23:52,716 Speaker 2: love this Andre three thousand record, which is just like 495 00:23:53,436 --> 00:23:55,156 Speaker 2: I really tried to make a hip hop record, but 496 00:23:55,156 --> 00:23:57,036 Speaker 2: I actually wanted to just sit cross legged and play 497 00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:58,236 Speaker 2: my bass clarinet. 498 00:23:58,436 --> 00:23:58,916 Speaker 1: Yeah. 499 00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:02,156 Speaker 2: Why shouldn't a music maker have that phase in their career, 500 00:24:02,236 --> 00:24:05,396 Speaker 2: especially someone who's already packed the dance floors and there's 501 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:08,316 Speaker 2: already been the music you have to play your wedding 502 00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:10,596 Speaker 2: and your party and you're getting ready to go out. 503 00:24:10,596 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 2: It's like, why should we expect artists anything else of 504 00:24:14,516 --> 00:24:17,236 Speaker 2: artists except kind of evolution. The artists are meant to 505 00:24:17,236 --> 00:24:19,836 Speaker 2: be the weirdos, the strange ones, the ones who are 506 00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 2: kind of like listening to the muse, the ones who 507 00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:24,196 Speaker 2: are a bit out there. And so I think there 508 00:24:24,276 --> 00:24:26,876 Speaker 2: is as much space as you imagine, and you can 509 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:30,476 Speaker 2: say anything you imagine. You just have to not think 510 00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:34,396 Speaker 2: that people a large amount of people are going to 511 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:38,716 Speaker 2: actually care, you know, but some people will care and 512 00:24:38,796 --> 00:24:41,756 Speaker 2: that will make a deep connection and that's really valuable. 513 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:45,156 Speaker 1: So how have you experienced, then, the reception of your 514 00:24:45,196 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 1: new album, Black Rainbow. 515 00:24:46,596 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 2: I mean, I've experienced it in a really profound and 516 00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:52,436 Speaker 2: rewarding way. I mean I think I've experienced it in 517 00:24:52,436 --> 00:24:57,356 Speaker 2: two ways, maybe three. One is actually live, you know, 518 00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 2: going to a room, like traveling somewhere on a tour bus, 519 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 2: getting out of the bus, getting our stuff ready, getting 520 00:25:03,596 --> 00:25:05,836 Speaker 2: my clothes on, getting my makeup done, and then working 521 00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:07,996 Speaker 2: on to that stage and just being there and saying 522 00:25:08,716 --> 00:25:10,836 Speaker 2: I stories for you, I've got some things I want 523 00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 2: to say, and seeing people react. You know, when we 524 00:25:14,516 --> 00:25:17,036 Speaker 2: first started our tour, our last US tour, it was 525 00:25:17,076 --> 00:25:19,276 Speaker 2: before the record had even come out, and I knew 526 00:25:19,316 --> 00:25:21,876 Speaker 2: I was playing the whole thing, so it was just 527 00:25:22,036 --> 00:25:24,876 Speaker 2: you know, you may have heard two songs off this 528 00:25:24,916 --> 00:25:26,956 Speaker 2: whole album, but here we are just bringing it to 529 00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:27,356 Speaker 2: you and this. 530 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:28,916 Speaker 1: We recorded it and everything. 531 00:25:28,956 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean the album wasn't out yet, so 532 00:25:31,996 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 2: the tour went just ahead of when the album was out, 533 00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:36,676 Speaker 2: So I think maybe people would have heard if they 534 00:25:36,716 --> 00:25:38,796 Speaker 2: were really looking for it, they would have heard New 535 00:25:38,836 --> 00:25:42,316 Speaker 2: York Transit Queen and maybe Peach Velvet Sky, but nothing else. 536 00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:45,916 Speaker 2: And just to be able to play the songs and 537 00:25:45,956 --> 00:25:49,116 Speaker 2: see people's reaction and feel like you're in it with 538 00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:52,076 Speaker 2: people you know. To be able to play, he will 539 00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:54,476 Speaker 2: folly with his eyes and go from this kind of 540 00:25:54,556 --> 00:25:57,916 Speaker 2: dreamy section into the more disjointed music at the end 541 00:25:57,956 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 2: where I'm singing abby hit with my plum red lipstick, 542 00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:05,196 Speaker 2: my black hair kinking, my black skin gleaming, And just 543 00:26:05,236 --> 00:26:07,196 Speaker 2: to say that over and over again and to hear 544 00:26:07,196 --> 00:26:10,716 Speaker 2: people like start clapping and cheering and like standing up, 545 00:26:10,796 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 2: and just to feel that in real time that gave 546 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:16,756 Speaker 2: me so much, you know, maybe think this is striking 547 00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 2: a chord. That's all I want. All I want is 548 00:26:18,796 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 2: to connect with people. And I get that feeling in 549 00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 2: a room of five hundred people, eight hundred people, one 550 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 2: thousand people, twelve hundred people, just small intimate rooms that 551 00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:32,396 Speaker 2: meant the world to me. Doing those places, or being 552 00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:34,716 Speaker 2: able to hear a song and you can hear a 553 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:36,676 Speaker 2: pin drop, no one's talking, no one's at the bar, 554 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 2: you know, just a song they've never heard that meant 555 00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:41,356 Speaker 2: a lot. So that's one way I've received it. I 556 00:26:41,396 --> 00:26:44,836 Speaker 2: think another way is getting to talk to people like 557 00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:48,956 Speaker 2: yourself or been requested to talk with people like yourself, 558 00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:51,556 Speaker 2: that's meant a lot to me that the phone has 559 00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:53,596 Speaker 2: kept ringing, or that you know, say can you come 560 00:26:53,636 --> 00:26:54,756 Speaker 2: on this? Can you come on this? Can you come 561 00:26:54,756 --> 00:26:56,476 Speaker 2: in this? Can you can you talk? Can you talk? 562 00:26:56,956 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 2: That's been amazing just to say like, oh, it has 563 00:26:59,516 --> 00:27:03,356 Speaker 2: connected in certain places. That means a world. And then yeah, 564 00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 2: the same getting to be on radio and play the 565 00:27:05,836 --> 00:27:08,716 Speaker 2: music and then have like the feedback come through, or 566 00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:11,076 Speaker 2: you know, we just did a session for Joe Wiley 567 00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:13,636 Speaker 2: and she's on Radio two in the UK and I 568 00:27:13,636 --> 00:27:15,876 Speaker 2: had played for her in two thousand and five. I mean, 569 00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:18,716 Speaker 2: I've been back since, but just to think, gosh, I've 570 00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:21,116 Speaker 2: been in this space many times, but this is doing 571 00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:22,996 Speaker 2: a really different thing. And to have people, you know, 572 00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:23,676 Speaker 2: phoning in. 573 00:27:23,996 --> 00:27:25,836 Speaker 1: Does it feel like a first record again for you 574 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:27,676 Speaker 1: in a way like does it feel it does. 575 00:27:27,516 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 2: Feel like a first record? Yeah? And it also feels 576 00:27:30,276 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 2: I think because it's different to what people might have expected. 577 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:38,756 Speaker 2: It feels like not cheeky but risky. You know, it 578 00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:41,676 Speaker 2: feels like a risky thing to do good. 579 00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:44,676 Speaker 1: Even in a meta way as a listener of your 580 00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:47,276 Speaker 1: music beyond like just really liking the set of music. 581 00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:51,476 Speaker 1: What's exciting about it? For me is seeing someone that's 582 00:27:51,516 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: been in your life for as long as you've been 583 00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:56,636 Speaker 1: in our lives take that risk. It's thrilling and it 584 00:27:56,636 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 1: makes you know myself. I'm sure other people too who 585 00:27:59,516 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: listen like, yeah, fuck it, I want to try something 586 00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:05,596 Speaker 1: different because it's really out there and it's really fucking good. 587 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:08,516 Speaker 2: Thank you, Yeah, thanks, It's just been good for me. 588 00:28:08,676 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 2: I just feel like, what do I want to do 589 00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:14,796 Speaker 2: with my time here? I don't want to forensically pour 590 00:28:14,876 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 2: over what I've done before and try and make it 591 00:28:16,996 --> 00:28:19,436 Speaker 2: enough the same that it's going to catch those people. 592 00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:21,516 Speaker 2: And that's why I tried to always talk to the 593 00:28:21,756 --> 00:28:24,356 Speaker 2: label people about the people who bought my first record. 594 00:28:24,636 --> 00:28:28,156 Speaker 2: They're not even the same now, Like who a listener 595 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:30,316 Speaker 2: was in two thousand and six, it's not the same 596 00:28:30,356 --> 00:28:32,996 Speaker 2: as who they are in twenty twenty four. So it's 597 00:28:32,996 --> 00:28:36,876 Speaker 2: like even your audience has changed in terms of who 598 00:28:36,876 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 2: they are. 599 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 1: Way so I would have been like sixteen whenever came out. 600 00:28:40,436 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 1: I loved it. Now I'm an almost thirty five year 601 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,236 Speaker 1: old dad of two girls whatever, but like listening to 602 00:28:46,276 --> 00:28:48,836 Speaker 1: it makes me feel sixteen again because it makes me excited. 603 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:50,196 Speaker 1: It's like something new you know. 604 00:28:50,396 --> 00:28:52,516 Speaker 2: So I think it's sort of patronizing to kind of 605 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 2: imagine that your listeners, you know, everyone's kind of in 606 00:28:55,316 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 2: a Belgia, are like just waiting for the same thing again. 607 00:28:58,436 --> 00:29:00,356 Speaker 2: I mean, who even wants the same to buy a 608 00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:03,436 Speaker 2: same record even if I made it carbon copy? You know, 609 00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:05,356 Speaker 2: like the Disney films that they do where it's like 610 00:29:05,516 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 2: it's The Little Mermaid but it's live action, but it's 611 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:10,076 Speaker 2: exactly the same, but it's different, but it's you know, 612 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:16,836 Speaker 2: I wouldn't. So it's like, how can you ever compete 613 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 2: with the really you know, the thing that you already 614 00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 2: did and it's just Better's like, make a new movie. 615 00:29:22,996 --> 00:29:26,356 Speaker 2: See what that's like? Yeah, the Little Moment will still exist. 616 00:29:26,636 --> 00:29:28,636 Speaker 2: I mean I did actually like the Little Moment, but 617 00:29:30,076 --> 00:29:33,996 Speaker 2: as an example of the whole way that things are 618 00:29:34,036 --> 00:29:37,716 Speaker 2: being kind of remade, you know, why not just do 619 00:29:37,876 --> 00:29:40,196 Speaker 2: something new? Well, the reason is because it's more of 620 00:29:40,196 --> 00:29:43,436 Speaker 2: a risk, But what the benefit is that it's new 621 00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:45,436 Speaker 2: art in the world, which is good for everybody. 622 00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:48,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do take your time, and you alluded to 623 00:29:49,036 --> 00:29:51,836 Speaker 1: that a bit earlier. Do you feel that like you've 624 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:56,356 Speaker 1: found a rhythm in a way that will allow things 625 00:29:56,396 --> 00:29:57,316 Speaker 1: to come a little easier. 626 00:29:57,476 --> 00:29:59,836 Speaker 2: Yes, I definitely feel that. And I think part of 627 00:29:59,836 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 2: the reason the third album took so long is because 628 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:07,236 Speaker 2: it was actually a combination of songs that weren't rejected 629 00:30:07,316 --> 00:30:10,396 Speaker 2: by either myself or a team, you know, So I 630 00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:13,516 Speaker 2: could have written three records in that space. You know, 631 00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:16,636 Speaker 2: there were definitely songs that were just like a wounded 632 00:30:16,716 --> 00:30:18,836 Speaker 2: bird that you just kind of lay by the side 633 00:30:18,836 --> 00:30:21,516 Speaker 2: of the road and throw out something else. So I 634 00:30:21,516 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 2: think I will never go back to that place. However, 635 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,036 Speaker 2: I make my records now, even whether it's with a 636 00:30:27,036 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 2: major label or not. I like the thing of making 637 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:32,196 Speaker 2: the record without anyone. I really enjoyed that this time, 638 00:30:32,756 --> 00:30:34,556 Speaker 2: so you may and that's how did my first record. 639 00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:36,956 Speaker 2: So you make it and then you sort of take 640 00:30:36,996 --> 00:30:39,316 Speaker 2: it around like you're a traveling salesperson, you know, you 641 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 2: say it's this, it's weird, it's different, is it good? 642 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 2: Is it bad? And some people say no, and then 643 00:30:45,236 --> 00:30:46,956 Speaker 2: some people say yes. And then when you find someone 644 00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:48,756 Speaker 2: who says yes and you can work from there. I 645 00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 2: think that's a way that I want to carry on 646 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:53,436 Speaker 2: doing it. And you know, having you know, made a 647 00:30:53,476 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 2: studio and invest made those kind of investments I think 648 00:30:56,316 --> 00:30:58,916 Speaker 2: that it's possible. So yeah, I'm just trying to work 649 00:30:58,956 --> 00:30:59,756 Speaker 2: out what to do next. 650 00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:02,196 Speaker 1: Have you heard from labels, either your old. 651 00:31:02,676 --> 00:31:04,796 Speaker 2: Well, I've heard from different people who are at the 652 00:31:04,836 --> 00:31:07,116 Speaker 2: different labels, and it's been really positive. I mean I 653 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 2: haven't heard from any sort of like the giants of 654 00:31:09,196 --> 00:31:11,276 Speaker 2: any of the labels, and you know, you think, I 655 00:31:11,436 --> 00:31:12,956 Speaker 2: wonder if they have you even heard it or not? 656 00:31:13,196 --> 00:31:16,116 Speaker 2: But or even like my old manager, my first manager 657 00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:17,916 Speaker 2: is like, I'm so happy you made this. It really 658 00:31:17,956 --> 00:31:19,396 Speaker 2: sounds like you and it sounds like you're having a 659 00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:21,636 Speaker 2: good time and that means a lot to me that 660 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:25,476 Speaker 2: it's come from historic me as well, that's not like 661 00:31:25,556 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 2: a reinventor. Yea. 662 00:31:27,356 --> 00:31:31,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, I read in the book that you felt like 663 00:31:31,756 --> 00:31:34,076 Speaker 1: even the way you wrote the songs was different, I 664 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 1: mean basing this rather than the songs coming from some 665 00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 1: internal sense of how you're feeling or something that's happened 666 00:31:41,356 --> 00:31:44,276 Speaker 1: in your life, You're you're pulling the inspiration for the 667 00:31:44,356 --> 00:31:47,396 Speaker 1: songs from outside sources, from these items you discovered at 668 00:31:47,396 --> 00:31:49,956 Speaker 1: the archive in Chicago. Did you enjoy writing that way 669 00:31:50,076 --> 00:31:52,156 Speaker 1: and is that something you keep doing as well? 670 00:31:52,556 --> 00:31:54,796 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed writing that way, because I really didn't 671 00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:57,236 Speaker 2: try to write that way. And I think I hear 672 00:31:57,276 --> 00:31:59,596 Speaker 2: about people who I don't know write books or write films, 673 00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:01,556 Speaker 2: or they say I was on the tube and I 674 00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:04,316 Speaker 2: overheard so and so, and a lot of songwriters work 675 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:06,956 Speaker 2: like that as well. Right, So, I think because I 676 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 2: wasn't trying to write songs when I was looking at 677 00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,756 Speaker 2: that stuff, you know, that first day, I was just 678 00:32:12,436 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 2: curious or nose even just pulling open drawers and like that, 679 00:32:17,276 --> 00:32:19,676 Speaker 2: like certain things would interest me, certain things wouldn't. And 680 00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:22,756 Speaker 2: I guess I was drawn to my own things that 681 00:32:22,876 --> 00:32:23,476 Speaker 2: fascinate me. 682 00:32:23,556 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 1: You know. 683 00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:26,916 Speaker 2: I looked at a lot of women. I looked at children, 684 00:32:27,196 --> 00:32:31,316 Speaker 2: I looked at particular eras of America. I looked for beauty, 685 00:32:31,676 --> 00:32:33,676 Speaker 2: you know. I was really interested in the glamour and 686 00:32:34,476 --> 00:32:37,516 Speaker 2: fashion of ebony from the forties and fifties. You know, 687 00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:42,236 Speaker 2: I hadn't seen imagery of like black women in elegance 688 00:32:42,356 --> 00:32:46,836 Speaker 2: and gloves and pillbox hats, and I hadn't seen enough 689 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 2: pictures like that. 690 00:32:48,396 --> 00:32:50,796 Speaker 1: Seen more of that, because every time it's flashed back 691 00:32:50,836 --> 00:32:52,876 Speaker 1: to the fifties with black America, it's the black and 692 00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:54,396 Speaker 1: white dogs. 693 00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:57,676 Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I mean, so I think I 694 00:32:57,756 --> 00:33:01,396 Speaker 2: had seen so much, Yeah, vintage blackness that was really 695 00:33:01,516 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 2: framed around civil rights struggle or violent oppression. They were 696 00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 2: the images that went all over the world for all 697 00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:13,436 Speaker 2: the reasons. But I think what that does is it 698 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:19,356 Speaker 2: makes blackness into a kind of perpetual struggle, you know, 699 00:33:19,476 --> 00:33:21,556 Speaker 2: like the work of being black in the fifties is 700 00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 2: to struggle. And I remember talking to Miss Audrey Smaltz, 701 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,596 Speaker 2: who was Miss New York Transit Queen nineteen fifty three. 702 00:33:27,756 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 1: That's a real thing. 703 00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:31,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a competition and it was Miss New 704 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:34,516 Speaker 2: York Transit. So that's what was the competition that she won, 705 00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:36,676 Speaker 2: and that's how I found her. It was the black 706 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:40,236 Speaker 2: equivalent of Miss Subways. When I left the Arts Bank, 707 00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:42,716 Speaker 2: I was googling like Mistransit, Mistransit. All I could have 708 00:33:42,716 --> 00:33:44,956 Speaker 2: found was these two articles that were in Ebony magazine, 709 00:33:45,076 --> 00:33:47,276 Speaker 2: so it was the only source on the entire Internet. 710 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:51,116 Speaker 2: But I would keep coming across Miss Subways, which was 711 00:33:51,196 --> 00:33:53,156 Speaker 2: all of these kind of Doris Day types, you know, 712 00:33:53,316 --> 00:33:56,476 Speaker 2: sort of posing and their photos will be plastered all 713 00:33:56,516 --> 00:33:59,236 Speaker 2: over the tube, and so you could vote for who 714 00:33:59,316 --> 00:34:01,716 Speaker 2: you thought was Miss Subway of any particular year, and 715 00:34:01,756 --> 00:34:03,556 Speaker 2: I think the prize was, you know, free ride on 716 00:34:03,636 --> 00:34:07,516 Speaker 2: the subway or whatever for the years. So a lot 717 00:34:07,556 --> 00:34:10,756 Speaker 2: of these women, you know there were secretary, they were teachers, 718 00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 2: they were you know, they were going to their work, 719 00:34:12,796 --> 00:34:15,676 Speaker 2: and they you know, beautiful women and immaculately dressed. But 720 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:18,156 Speaker 2: the competition, even if though it was in New York, 721 00:34:18,236 --> 00:34:20,996 Speaker 2: the competition wasn't open to black women in the fifties 722 00:34:21,116 --> 00:34:23,916 Speaker 2: in New York. So the black transit workers of New 723 00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:26,596 Speaker 2: York got together and made Miss Transit. And that's why 724 00:34:27,156 --> 00:34:29,396 Speaker 2: we see Audrey Smaltz. I think she's a fourth winner 725 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:32,916 Speaker 2: ever of Miss Transit. But yeah, because of that and 726 00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:35,476 Speaker 2: because of ebony, and because someone put it on the internet, 727 00:34:35,556 --> 00:34:37,436 Speaker 2: I was able to find out about it and actually 728 00:34:37,516 --> 00:34:40,036 Speaker 2: find Audrey Smaltz, you know, because she became a very 729 00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:42,516 Speaker 2: famous woman in fashion and media. 730 00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:45,796 Speaker 1: Was that the impetus four or I mean imagine she 731 00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:48,316 Speaker 1: was probably glamorous before, if that's how that's how she won. 732 00:34:48,636 --> 00:34:51,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, she wasn't. She was seventeen and she was an 733 00:34:51,716 --> 00:34:54,676 Speaker 2: art student and she had entered this beauty competition because 734 00:34:54,836 --> 00:34:56,916 Speaker 2: it lists her as being I mean, I don't know 735 00:34:56,996 --> 00:35:00,276 Speaker 2: feet and inches because we're metric in England. It's five 736 00:35:00,356 --> 00:35:04,676 Speaker 2: eleven one one in shorter of six foot. Yeah, okay, 737 00:35:05,036 --> 00:35:06,876 Speaker 2: but she is actually six foot but they thought it 738 00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:10,316 Speaker 2: wasn't feminine enough. Sa, So it's like she's five to 739 00:35:10,516 --> 00:35:14,956 Speaker 2: eleven but she was. Yeah, it didn't be intimidated fellas. 740 00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:19,156 Speaker 2: But yeah, she's she was the six foots of Amazonian beauty. 741 00:35:19,716 --> 00:35:22,156 Speaker 2: But she won the competition. I mean obviously because of 742 00:35:22,156 --> 00:35:24,996 Speaker 2: her looks, but also she had this fold. She was 743 00:35:25,036 --> 00:35:27,276 Speaker 2: an art student, so she drew and so that was her. 744 00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:28,996 Speaker 2: You know, you had to show your kind of studies 745 00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:31,796 Speaker 2: or special interests. And really I liked the idea of that. 746 00:35:31,876 --> 00:35:34,636 Speaker 2: But yeah, going back to when you think, you close 747 00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:37,036 Speaker 2: your eyes and think of black American in the fifties 748 00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,556 Speaker 2: and the sixties, it is kind of a police dog. 749 00:35:40,356 --> 00:35:43,396 Speaker 2: So seeing all this glamor and seeing all this beauty. 750 00:35:43,716 --> 00:35:45,876 Speaker 2: But I said to Audrey Smult's, you know, what was 751 00:35:45,916 --> 00:35:49,356 Speaker 2: it like growing up in Harlem in the in the 752 00:35:49,556 --> 00:35:52,436 Speaker 2: forties the fifties, you know, was racism? I kind of 753 00:35:53,236 --> 00:35:56,156 Speaker 2: was it an everyday you know struggle with me being 754 00:35:56,236 --> 00:35:59,316 Speaker 2: this you know, black English girl. She's like, honey, no, 755 00:35:59,756 --> 00:36:02,676 Speaker 2: She's like, I've lived in Harlem. We were fantastic we 756 00:36:02,756 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 2: lived in that. I didn't know it was the projects. 757 00:36:05,756 --> 00:36:08,356 Speaker 2: We thought we were muck aty Mac. She said, we 758 00:36:08,476 --> 00:36:11,276 Speaker 2: had a live in the basement, we had black artists 759 00:36:11,356 --> 00:36:15,876 Speaker 2: on the wall, and she was painting this segregated world 760 00:36:15,916 --> 00:36:19,596 Speaker 2: of Harlem, saying our teachers were black, our doctors were black, 761 00:36:19,836 --> 00:36:23,316 Speaker 2: our bankers were black, our lawyers were black. We lived 762 00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:28,076 Speaker 2: in this relatively safe space where actually our every day 763 00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:32,316 Speaker 2: was not thinking about the struggle. We were just getting 764 00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:34,196 Speaker 2: on with our lives. And that really blew my mind 765 00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:38,596 Speaker 2: to think about these some black spaces were safe to 766 00:36:38,676 --> 00:36:41,916 Speaker 2: the extent that it wasn't the defining factor of a 767 00:36:41,996 --> 00:36:44,436 Speaker 2: person's life. You know. They went to finishing school. She 768 00:36:44,516 --> 00:36:47,756 Speaker 2: went to Miss Celia Devors finishing school. She just painted 769 00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:51,276 Speaker 2: this picture which made me realize that we're always overlaying 770 00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:54,916 Speaker 2: the kind of political struggle on top of the everyday 771 00:36:54,996 --> 00:36:56,716 Speaker 2: lives of black people at that time. That's why I 772 00:36:56,756 --> 00:37:00,156 Speaker 2: loved Ebony magazine because it's of course it's talking about politics, 773 00:37:00,196 --> 00:37:02,436 Speaker 2: but it's also talking about the black families that are 774 00:37:02,436 --> 00:37:04,516 Speaker 2: putting on an art expission in the house, and it's 775 00:37:04,516 --> 00:37:07,316 Speaker 2: took about the Black doctrine Canada and it's talking about 776 00:37:07,716 --> 00:37:12,636 Speaker 2: hem lengths and wigs and makeup and nail varnish and 777 00:37:12,796 --> 00:37:15,676 Speaker 2: where you can buy the best powder deodron, just the 778 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:19,156 Speaker 2: real everyday things of black life. So I just, I 779 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:23,756 Speaker 2: mean ebony was just this amazing, glamorous, brilliant sauce for me, 780 00:37:23,876 --> 00:37:24,436 Speaker 2: it's beautiful. 781 00:37:24,436 --> 00:37:25,676 Speaker 1: I' have to go back and look at some of 782 00:37:25,716 --> 00:37:28,316 Speaker 1: the sometimes I'm like Google books. I'll go back to 783 00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:29,876 Speaker 1: some old stuff and look at those. But I should 784 00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:31,636 Speaker 1: pick them up at like a store and look at them. 785 00:37:31,796 --> 00:37:34,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's still a few around because I got 786 00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:36,156 Speaker 2: one last time I was in Chicago, which on that tour, 787 00:37:36,276 --> 00:37:38,996 Speaker 2: you know, in November, I managed to pick one up 788 00:37:39,556 --> 00:37:40,716 Speaker 2: and then now it's mine. 789 00:37:40,796 --> 00:37:40,956 Speaker 1: You know. 790 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:44,116 Speaker 2: It's like nineteen sixty five and front covers gorgeous. 791 00:37:44,476 --> 00:37:44,956 Speaker 1: That's great. 792 00:37:45,076 --> 00:37:47,156 Speaker 2: That's really a real piece of history. 793 00:37:47,556 --> 00:37:52,236 Speaker 1: Does every song on the album correspond to some thing 794 00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:54,076 Speaker 1: or things in the archive? 795 00:37:54,236 --> 00:37:57,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, So every song on the record is directly influenced 796 00:37:57,076 --> 00:37:59,956 Speaker 2: by an object or a group of objects, or the 797 00:38:00,036 --> 00:38:02,756 Speaker 2: events in that arts Bank. So that song put it 798 00:38:02,876 --> 00:38:07,156 Speaker 2: down comes from those experiences like with Carolinia or this 799 00:38:07,396 --> 00:38:10,676 Speaker 2: dance party that happened in Arts Bank where you had 800 00:38:10,716 --> 00:38:12,236 Speaker 2: to write down your woes and put them in this 801 00:38:12,396 --> 00:38:15,396 Speaker 2: big vessel on the way into the party. And I 802 00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:17,316 Speaker 2: love the party because it was a proper mixture of 803 00:38:18,116 --> 00:38:21,276 Speaker 2: the hip art crowd who liked the esta and admire 804 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:25,156 Speaker 2: his work. He's internationally collected, is represented by White Cube 805 00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:30,276 Speaker 2: and so those people and then local community people who 806 00:38:30,436 --> 00:38:32,556 Speaker 2: you know that is the South side of Chicago, so 807 00:38:32,636 --> 00:38:37,396 Speaker 2: it's an underserved community, is the current title. And then 808 00:38:37,596 --> 00:38:41,436 Speaker 2: just like black hip uptown people, people from the university. 809 00:38:41,516 --> 00:38:43,956 Speaker 2: So it was a real mixture when you looked around 810 00:38:43,996 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 2: the room and everyone was just dancing to this FRANKI 811 00:38:46,236 --> 00:38:49,476 Speaker 2: Knuckles archive for like three four hours, sweating it out 812 00:38:49,516 --> 00:38:52,316 Speaker 2: in this building, you know, like freezing outside of condensation 813 00:38:52,516 --> 00:38:55,596 Speaker 2: on the walls on the inside, and then they set 814 00:38:55,676 --> 00:38:58,556 Speaker 2: fire to all the woes at the end. And the 815 00:38:58,716 --> 00:39:01,556 Speaker 2: thing that I had put in there, the burden that 816 00:39:01,596 --> 00:39:03,876 Speaker 2: I had been carrying, I never experienced it the same 817 00:39:04,036 --> 00:39:07,676 Speaker 2: after that event, you know, like the actual cathartic thing 818 00:39:07,756 --> 00:39:10,436 Speaker 2: of dancing it out, being in that building, being around 819 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:14,396 Speaker 2: those people burning it. That was it, you know, done 820 00:39:14,476 --> 00:39:16,796 Speaker 2: for me. So I'm a real believer in dancing out 821 00:39:16,836 --> 00:39:18,756 Speaker 2: your woes, and that's what came into that song. You know, 822 00:39:19,356 --> 00:39:21,316 Speaker 2: when I've gathered up all my woes, I put it down. 823 00:39:21,356 --> 00:39:22,916 Speaker 2: I'm like a burden of all my woes and put 824 00:39:22,956 --> 00:39:25,076 Speaker 2: it down, and then you know, too much inside. I 825 00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:27,036 Speaker 2: got to dance it out and then into the end, 826 00:39:27,116 --> 00:39:28,396 Speaker 2: you know, I feel so free. 827 00:39:28,556 --> 00:39:31,116 Speaker 1: I put it down in hindsight. Was the work? Was 828 00:39:31,156 --> 00:39:35,156 Speaker 1: it small in hindsight or was it something it was big? 829 00:39:35,276 --> 00:39:37,556 Speaker 2: Definitely, Yeah, it was of getting in the way. It 830 00:39:37,676 --> 00:39:40,956 Speaker 2: was blocking What then became all this new stuff, you know, 831 00:39:41,076 --> 00:39:44,036 Speaker 2: just a perception of myself. And I just recently went 832 00:39:44,116 --> 00:39:47,596 Speaker 2: to this meditation class as well, and they talked about 833 00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:52,276 Speaker 2: a Hindu god whose work is to slice through the 834 00:39:52,956 --> 00:39:55,396 Speaker 2: false narratives that you have of yourself. And I remember, 835 00:39:55,396 --> 00:39:59,196 Speaker 2: I think she's called Shapti, and I'm thinking, yeah, I 836 00:39:59,476 --> 00:40:02,476 Speaker 2: want that, you know, just just like burn away all 837 00:40:02,516 --> 00:40:04,916 Speaker 2: the stuff that's not relevant. 838 00:40:06,236 --> 00:40:08,156 Speaker 1: After this last break, we'll be back with the rest 839 00:40:08,196 --> 00:40:15,476 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Krin Bailey Ray. Here's the rest 840 00:40:15,516 --> 00:40:19,636 Speaker 1: of my conversation with Grinn Bailey Ray. What about the 841 00:40:19,716 --> 00:40:22,436 Speaker 1: song Urthline? What would inspire that Earthlings? 842 00:40:22,556 --> 00:40:24,596 Speaker 2: I really, I mean, there was a lot of stuff 843 00:40:24,716 --> 00:40:27,876 Speaker 2: in the record of what's time and where are we? 844 00:40:28,236 --> 00:40:32,556 Speaker 2: So are we here now but with the future for 845 00:40:32,676 --> 00:40:35,596 Speaker 2: our ancestors, and we're sort of in communication with them. 846 00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:39,036 Speaker 2: I think that, you know, you can reach backwards, you 847 00:40:39,116 --> 00:40:42,236 Speaker 2: can kind of tell them where you are and how 848 00:40:42,316 --> 00:40:44,476 Speaker 2: far we've come, and that we're safe. I don't know, 849 00:40:44,796 --> 00:40:46,276 Speaker 2: I really feel that, and I've felt that a lot 850 00:40:46,316 --> 00:40:48,716 Speaker 2: after I'd had my children as well, felt really connected 851 00:40:48,796 --> 00:40:52,276 Speaker 2: to the kind of line going far, far back. But 852 00:40:52,356 --> 00:40:54,436 Speaker 2: I think with the earth things, I thought a lot 853 00:40:54,476 --> 00:40:57,476 Speaker 2: about utopias. You know, in the library, there's a big 854 00:40:57,516 --> 00:41:00,996 Speaker 2: conversation going on over about two hundred and fifty years 855 00:41:01,076 --> 00:41:04,476 Speaker 2: between black thinkers. You know, a classic example would be 856 00:41:04,876 --> 00:41:11,356 Speaker 2: an early Malcolm X and Martin Luther King position versus separatism. 857 00:41:11,556 --> 00:41:15,276 Speaker 2: You know, we find ourselves to be here. This similation 858 00:41:15,676 --> 00:41:22,436 Speaker 2: argument says, here we are outside of West Africa, in America, 859 00:41:22,716 --> 00:41:28,636 Speaker 2: in Europe, in South America, black people, but we find 860 00:41:28,716 --> 00:41:33,356 Speaker 2: ourselves alongside our neighbor. We are human and they are human. 861 00:41:33,716 --> 00:41:36,316 Speaker 2: Let's find a way to live together and move forward 862 00:41:36,476 --> 00:41:41,236 Speaker 2: from this moment. The separatist argument says, we are here 863 00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:45,396 Speaker 2: in this hostile environment, how can we possibly survive? The 864 00:41:45,516 --> 00:41:48,556 Speaker 2: only way to survive is to turn inwards and separate 865 00:41:48,596 --> 00:41:52,076 Speaker 2: ourselves from everyone else. Whether that's a geographical place like 866 00:41:52,236 --> 00:41:55,556 Speaker 2: Marcus Garvey back to Africa, or whether that's a spiritual 867 00:41:55,596 --> 00:41:58,436 Speaker 2: idea like the separatist communities that sprung up in the 868 00:41:58,516 --> 00:42:02,676 Speaker 2: sixties and seventies, or whether it's economically when people talk 869 00:42:02,676 --> 00:42:05,916 Speaker 2: about trading only withinside the community. All these different ideas 870 00:42:06,356 --> 00:42:11,636 Speaker 2: and back and forth in the library. Before emancipation and 871 00:42:11,716 --> 00:42:14,516 Speaker 2: then from there on, there were different Black thinkers, some 872 00:42:14,636 --> 00:42:18,836 Speaker 2: saying we can make it work. We're all brothers and sisters, 873 00:42:19,036 --> 00:42:21,756 Speaker 2: and some saying no, we have to be separate. And 874 00:42:21,876 --> 00:42:26,116 Speaker 2: so Earthlings is looking at utopia and looking at all 875 00:42:26,116 --> 00:42:29,076 Speaker 2: these different attempts at utopia, like the Black pioneers going 876 00:42:29,156 --> 00:42:32,036 Speaker 2: west and making their own all black towns, some of 877 00:42:32,076 --> 00:42:34,196 Speaker 2: which were really successful, some of which still exist, some 878 00:42:34,236 --> 00:42:37,956 Speaker 2: of which were crushed and destroyed, like Greenwood, which was 879 00:42:38,196 --> 00:42:40,556 Speaker 2: the first incident of fire bombing that happened. 880 00:42:40,716 --> 00:42:42,476 Speaker 1: Is not what is Greenwood. 881 00:42:42,676 --> 00:42:45,756 Speaker 2: Greenwood was an all black town that existed that was 882 00:42:45,796 --> 00:42:50,476 Speaker 2: a very wealthy town, and there was an incident where 883 00:42:51,076 --> 00:42:54,476 Speaker 2: a black man was accused of interacting with a white 884 00:42:54,476 --> 00:42:57,796 Speaker 2: woman in a lift, a sexual aggression towards this white woman, 885 00:42:58,796 --> 00:43:03,556 Speaker 2: and a lynch mob came for this man into Greenwood 886 00:43:03,596 --> 00:43:07,276 Speaker 2: where he lived, and the Greenwood citizens defended him, said 887 00:43:07,276 --> 00:43:08,676 Speaker 2: they were not going to hand him over to you 888 00:43:09,276 --> 00:43:14,476 Speaker 2: false accusation, and the rumors grew and developed, and eventually 889 00:43:15,396 --> 00:43:20,156 Speaker 2: the area of Greenwood was firebombed by the people who 890 00:43:20,236 --> 00:43:22,916 Speaker 2: were outside of the community, and it's the first incident 891 00:43:22,956 --> 00:43:28,436 Speaker 2: of fire bombing used in America, these agricultural planes. So 892 00:43:28,556 --> 00:43:32,196 Speaker 2: I think there are some utopias which worked, some didn't. 893 00:43:33,156 --> 00:43:37,196 Speaker 2: But I think the song Earthlings is about how to 894 00:43:37,356 --> 00:43:41,236 Speaker 2: make utopia, sort of knowing that it's impossible, but it's asking, 895 00:43:41,276 --> 00:43:43,756 Speaker 2: you know, can we eat pineapples in the sun? Can 896 00:43:43,836 --> 00:43:46,436 Speaker 2: we dig our gardens and live? Can we find work 897 00:43:46,516 --> 00:43:49,036 Speaker 2: and time to dance? You know? How much do we 898 00:43:49,116 --> 00:43:51,876 Speaker 2: need to work to survive? How much freedom is possible 899 00:43:52,076 --> 00:43:55,196 Speaker 2: in the world? How much can we share our resources 900 00:43:55,356 --> 00:43:58,156 Speaker 2: and all have enough? So I was kind of I 901 00:43:58,316 --> 00:43:59,796 Speaker 2: am really interested in those. 902 00:43:59,756 --> 00:44:04,316 Speaker 1: Questions, pragmatic view of utopia. It's like, you know, it 903 00:44:04,356 --> 00:44:05,276 Speaker 1: would be nice. 904 00:44:05,156 --> 00:44:08,716 Speaker 2: The basics, well it's the basis, but he asked us questions. 905 00:44:08,796 --> 00:44:12,636 Speaker 2: So I'm the optimist who says, you know, I know 906 00:44:12,756 --> 00:44:14,796 Speaker 2: it won't be long, like we can make this happen. 907 00:44:14,836 --> 00:44:16,436 Speaker 2: And then I know other people who are close to 908 00:44:16,516 --> 00:44:18,956 Speaker 2: the song who say when they imagine it, they kind 909 00:44:18,956 --> 00:44:21,716 Speaker 2: of imagine it coming through the speakers on the sort 910 00:44:21,716 --> 00:44:25,436 Speaker 2: of spaceship where you know, all the astronauts have died 911 00:44:25,476 --> 00:44:27,996 Speaker 2: and they just kind of floating around and nothingness, you know, 912 00:44:28,156 --> 00:44:30,756 Speaker 2: like we we didn't do it, We missed our chance. 913 00:44:30,836 --> 00:44:32,876 Speaker 2: We're on the planet and the planet's destroyed, you know, 914 00:44:33,036 --> 00:44:36,196 Speaker 2: by it essentially our own selfishness, however that comes out. 915 00:44:36,316 --> 00:44:40,476 Speaker 2: You know, selfishness is manifesting in racism, doesn't it The 916 00:44:40,556 --> 00:44:45,276 Speaker 2: separation of ourselves from other people, the imagination that they're 917 00:44:45,356 --> 00:44:48,676 Speaker 2: not other people. Yeah, we can't because then when we 918 00:44:48,716 --> 00:44:50,196 Speaker 2: don't have to imagine them as people, then we don't 919 00:44:50,196 --> 00:44:54,676 Speaker 2: have to share anything with them, land, food, resources, love, 920 00:44:55,476 --> 00:44:58,436 Speaker 2: and so yeah, that song. I'm an optimist. That's what 921 00:44:58,596 --> 00:45:00,116 Speaker 2: I have to be that to get up in the morning. 922 00:45:00,196 --> 00:45:01,676 Speaker 1: I like that. It's more and more of like a 923 00:45:01,876 --> 00:45:02,836 Speaker 1: like a Curtis. 924 00:45:02,636 --> 00:45:03,996 Speaker 2: Mayfield, Yeah exactly. 925 00:45:04,196 --> 00:45:06,316 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is a train coming, you know. 926 00:45:06,396 --> 00:45:08,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, we can get on board. We can all 927 00:45:08,676 --> 00:45:10,716 Speaker 2: get in. The don't all he needs faith? You know, 928 00:45:11,116 --> 00:45:13,716 Speaker 2: you don't need a ticket. Yeah, really, I like that. 929 00:45:14,356 --> 00:45:17,036 Speaker 2: It's a kind of I don't know, I guess for 930 00:45:17,156 --> 00:45:21,236 Speaker 2: Curtis Mayfield, it's a specifically you know, Christian gospel message. 931 00:45:21,276 --> 00:45:23,756 Speaker 2: But I think it has the resonance, you know, so 932 00:45:24,316 --> 00:45:27,036 Speaker 2: what's the train? The train is kind of psychological. It's 933 00:45:27,036 --> 00:45:30,476 Speaker 2: a moment, it's consciousness. So I'm optimistic in that way. 934 00:45:30,636 --> 00:45:32,516 Speaker 1: That's cool. I want to ask you about another song. 935 00:45:32,596 --> 00:45:35,316 Speaker 1: But before that, they reminded him talking about Curtis reminded 936 00:45:35,396 --> 00:45:39,076 Speaker 1: me that you did an song with Al Green. I 937 00:45:39,116 --> 00:45:40,876 Speaker 1: don't know if you were actually with Al Green. 938 00:45:40,996 --> 00:45:42,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was with that. I was with Al Green. 939 00:45:43,436 --> 00:45:48,556 Speaker 2: It's terrifying, tell me, okay, it was. It was a questlove. 940 00:45:48,636 --> 00:45:49,996 Speaker 2: It was a mer who asked me to do it. 941 00:45:50,156 --> 00:45:52,516 Speaker 2: I can't remember if i'd even I think i'd met him. 942 00:45:52,556 --> 00:45:55,996 Speaker 2: Then I had met him. We met a few things, 943 00:45:56,196 --> 00:45:59,116 Speaker 2: and maybe a Music Cares thing and a Grammy thing, 944 00:46:00,076 --> 00:46:03,076 Speaker 2: and obviously it's a mea and it's the roots and 945 00:46:03,196 --> 00:46:05,316 Speaker 2: he was producing this al Green Records. So it came 946 00:46:05,356 --> 00:46:06,596 Speaker 2: to me like, oh, they want you to write a 947 00:46:06,636 --> 00:46:10,156 Speaker 2: song with Al Green, and I thought okay. So I 948 00:46:10,236 --> 00:46:13,556 Speaker 2: had to fly to New York and walk into the 949 00:46:13,636 --> 00:46:15,756 Speaker 2: room and there's al Green and he says like, yeah, 950 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:19,876 Speaker 2: you know, it's really softly spoken, and he's like, you know, 951 00:46:20,036 --> 00:46:22,556 Speaker 2: don't you worry about anything? You know when al Gren 952 00:46:22,636 --> 00:46:24,796 Speaker 2: is in the room. You know, when al Green is here, 953 00:46:24,916 --> 00:46:28,196 Speaker 2: there's all everything's fine, and he talks about himself in 954 00:46:28,276 --> 00:46:28,956 Speaker 2: the third person? 955 00:46:29,356 --> 00:46:30,996 Speaker 1: Does have glasses? Aren't too? In the studio? 956 00:46:31,356 --> 00:46:33,036 Speaker 2: I can't remember if you had glasses or it. I 957 00:46:33,116 --> 00:46:35,756 Speaker 2: remember thinking, you know, I'd worked on some chords at 958 00:46:35,836 --> 00:46:39,836 Speaker 2: home because I'm not the best guitarist, and also I thought, 959 00:46:39,876 --> 00:46:42,276 Speaker 2: you know, I'm really actually going to be there with 960 00:46:42,356 --> 00:46:43,836 Speaker 2: al Green. I don't want to be scratching my head. 961 00:46:44,356 --> 00:46:47,516 Speaker 2: So we'd worked, you know, on these chords for Take 962 00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:48,036 Speaker 2: Your Time. 963 00:46:49,796 --> 00:46:51,116 Speaker 1: How did you present the chords to it? 964 00:46:51,836 --> 00:46:54,396 Speaker 2: I was just played them. We know, I had a 965 00:46:54,436 --> 00:46:57,156 Speaker 2: Spanish guitar, and I was like, you know, mister al Green, 966 00:46:57,356 --> 00:46:58,236 Speaker 2: are you feeling these? 967 00:46:58,436 --> 00:46:58,476 Speaker 1: Like? 968 00:46:58,556 --> 00:47:01,276 Speaker 2: Do you like this? James Poiser was there. He obviously 969 00:47:01,316 --> 00:47:03,636 Speaker 2: plays with the roots, and he's a brilliant organist and 970 00:47:04,716 --> 00:47:07,436 Speaker 2: keep up player of all kinds and obviously questlove. So 971 00:47:07,876 --> 00:47:11,156 Speaker 2: we were the band kind of jamming this song and 972 00:47:12,076 --> 00:47:13,356 Speaker 2: I sang a few lines. 973 00:47:13,436 --> 00:47:17,636 Speaker 1: He sang some lines and how did the words come thready? 974 00:47:17,756 --> 00:47:20,116 Speaker 2: I didn't have the words already. No, So it ended 975 00:47:20,196 --> 00:47:22,196 Speaker 2: up being a kind of I guess. You know, it's 976 00:47:22,196 --> 00:47:26,916 Speaker 2: a duet, but there's this big age difference between us, 977 00:47:26,916 --> 00:47:28,876 Speaker 2: so it wasn't like we were in love with each other. 978 00:47:28,996 --> 00:47:31,396 Speaker 2: It's more that we were reflecting on you know, do 979 00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:34,996 Speaker 2: you remember when we used to take our time, you know, 980 00:47:35,156 --> 00:47:37,316 Speaker 2: I'd write you a letter and you'd or we'd stay 981 00:47:37,396 --> 00:47:39,836 Speaker 2: up all night, or you know, now it seems everything's 982 00:47:39,876 --> 00:47:41,876 Speaker 2: going too fast, and so it's kind of both of 983 00:47:41,996 --> 00:47:46,076 Speaker 2: us reflecting on longing for a time when I guess 984 00:47:46,196 --> 00:47:49,316 Speaker 2: love and communication could unravel in this real slow longing, 985 00:47:49,396 --> 00:47:52,676 Speaker 2: which you know so much about Algreen's music, that that 986 00:47:52,836 --> 00:47:58,716 Speaker 2: feeling of hot, damp southern air and love and waiting. 987 00:47:59,036 --> 00:48:05,836 Speaker 2: You know, it's it's so amazing and it doesn't take 988 00:48:05,916 --> 00:48:08,716 Speaker 2: much to kind of set it on fire. And so 989 00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:12,436 Speaker 2: it's all about the anticipation with his music, and so, yeah, 990 00:48:12,636 --> 00:48:15,996 Speaker 2: I can't believe that it came together, and I remember 991 00:48:16,076 --> 00:48:18,356 Speaker 2: just sort of thinking, I believe this is really happening. 992 00:48:18,516 --> 00:48:21,396 Speaker 2: It's really al Green and of couest Of was brilliant 993 00:48:21,396 --> 00:48:23,316 Speaker 2: obviously on the session, he got the different people and 994 00:48:23,436 --> 00:48:25,436 Speaker 2: I think John Legend was on that album as well, 995 00:48:25,956 --> 00:48:28,436 Speaker 2: So there was all these kind of you felt like 996 00:48:28,876 --> 00:48:30,756 Speaker 2: everybody in this room knows what they're doing, even if 997 00:48:30,796 --> 00:48:32,996 Speaker 2: I don't, and I just have to you know. It's 998 00:48:33,036 --> 00:48:33,916 Speaker 2: like a sink or swim. 999 00:48:34,156 --> 00:48:34,316 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1000 00:48:34,756 --> 00:48:39,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, was like you just don't worry about anything, you know, 1001 00:48:39,556 --> 00:48:43,036 Speaker 2: when Al Green is here, we can just relax. And 1002 00:48:43,196 --> 00:48:45,996 Speaker 2: you know he's a reverend, so his actual pastor. And 1003 00:48:46,076 --> 00:48:48,836 Speaker 2: then years later I went to his church. Did you 1004 00:48:49,436 --> 00:48:51,716 Speaker 2: that's my next I mean, you got, yeah, You've got 1005 00:48:51,796 --> 00:48:54,076 Speaker 2: to go because it's a real church in a real 1006 00:48:54,156 --> 00:48:56,996 Speaker 2: building and people are there with their baby, women are 1007 00:48:57,116 --> 00:48:59,476 Speaker 2: fanning themselves. I didn't know it's going to be there. 1008 00:48:59,516 --> 00:49:01,636 Speaker 2: I think he just that is his job. So he's there, 1009 00:49:01,796 --> 00:49:04,036 Speaker 2: you know, if he's not on tour, he's just in 1010 00:49:04,196 --> 00:49:07,836 Speaker 2: the church leading the service, you know, and he speaks. 1011 00:49:08,356 --> 00:49:10,756 Speaker 2: There's a you know when those organists who like plays 1012 00:49:10,836 --> 00:49:13,876 Speaker 2: behind the sermon and swells and the passionate partson and 1013 00:49:13,956 --> 00:49:16,596 Speaker 2: he holds it down. And then he said, Karin, would 1014 00:49:16,596 --> 00:49:18,396 Speaker 2: you like to come up and sing something? I was singing, 1015 00:49:18,836 --> 00:49:21,596 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, you know, this is the real gospel church. 1016 00:49:21,956 --> 00:49:24,756 Speaker 2: My Christian background is not gospel music. It's like a 1017 00:49:24,876 --> 00:49:27,916 Speaker 2: white Baptist church. You know, someone with a guitar and 1018 00:49:27,996 --> 00:49:30,476 Speaker 2: a rainbow guitar strap and someone playing a tambourine. That 1019 00:49:30,636 --> 00:49:33,356 Speaker 2: is what I know, you know. So it's like my 1020 00:49:33,516 --> 00:49:36,716 Speaker 2: black church experience comes from listening to records, it doesn't 1021 00:49:36,756 --> 00:49:39,516 Speaker 2: come from singing pews. So I was like, oh, was 1022 00:49:39,516 --> 00:49:41,276 Speaker 2: it gonna ask me? But it was amazing grace, which 1023 00:49:41,316 --> 00:49:44,276 Speaker 2: I of course know, so yeah, and I remember thinking, 1024 00:49:45,356 --> 00:49:49,716 Speaker 2: don't try and don't try and make all these crazy runs. 1025 00:49:49,956 --> 00:49:54,396 Speaker 2: Just just sing this song. And I think they thought 1026 00:49:54,476 --> 00:49:57,396 Speaker 2: they maybe you couldn't do that. So it was really 1027 00:49:57,596 --> 00:49:59,156 Speaker 2: it was really simple how he made it. But I 1028 00:49:59,236 --> 00:50:02,036 Speaker 2: wasn't about to be like if you major, you know, 1029 00:50:02,396 --> 00:50:07,996 Speaker 2: I just I was happy I sang my song. You know, 1030 00:50:08,196 --> 00:50:11,676 Speaker 2: it was a church. I wasn't trying to dazzle. But yeah, 1031 00:50:11,956 --> 00:50:14,276 Speaker 2: I also didn't fall on my face, which is good. 1032 00:50:14,276 --> 00:50:21,676 Speaker 2: But yeah, out in the bag at this point, I'll 1033 00:50:21,756 --> 00:50:22,676 Speaker 2: just stick to it, I know. 1034 00:50:23,036 --> 00:50:24,076 Speaker 1: You know what's surprised me? 1035 00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:24,316 Speaker 2: I was. 1036 00:50:24,476 --> 00:50:27,236 Speaker 1: I think about this kind of often, and going back 1037 00:50:27,276 --> 00:50:31,076 Speaker 1: to Aretha was like Ariana Grande Atrea's funeral. 1038 00:50:32,236 --> 00:50:37,916 Speaker 2: Is that what happened. I didn't watch Aretha's funeral, but occasionally, okay, 1039 00:50:37,996 --> 00:50:40,676 Speaker 2: more than occasionally, just sort of here and Aretha Franklin vocal. 1040 00:50:40,676 --> 00:50:42,676 Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was the other day, and 1041 00:50:42,796 --> 00:50:48,516 Speaker 2: I was just like, holy ship, she's totally unparalleled, a 1042 00:50:48,636 --> 00:50:51,916 Speaker 2: total master in her own lane. And just the ability 1043 00:50:52,076 --> 00:50:55,636 Speaker 2: to control, you know, it's like it's delicate, is burbling. 1044 00:50:55,676 --> 00:50:57,436 Speaker 2: You know what it was? It was her and Smoking 1045 00:50:57,516 --> 00:51:04,396 Speaker 2: Robinson singing Babby duet version. It's a duet that they 1046 00:51:04,636 --> 00:51:07,556 Speaker 2: just did totally spontaneously, and you can tell it is 1047 00:51:07,636 --> 00:51:10,116 Speaker 2: because Smokey sort of waits for the first note before 1048 00:51:10,116 --> 00:51:12,556 Speaker 2: he was a harmony and it was on Soul Train. 1049 00:51:13,716 --> 00:51:16,076 Speaker 2: You've got to watch it. I'm going to yeah, and 1050 00:51:16,676 --> 00:51:18,476 Speaker 2: she sat seeing and he said, oh, we should have 1051 00:51:18,556 --> 00:51:21,516 Speaker 2: been a duo and he says, it's not too late, baby, 1052 00:51:22,076 --> 00:51:24,316 Speaker 2: and I hadn't quite got them right in time. So 1053 00:51:24,436 --> 00:51:26,796 Speaker 2: it's like Smokey's a bit older than her, and he 1054 00:51:26,916 --> 00:51:28,876 Speaker 2: kind of looks older. He's wearing a jumper and I 1055 00:51:28,916 --> 00:51:30,956 Speaker 2: don't know, he might be like forty, and she looks 1056 00:51:31,036 --> 00:51:33,876 Speaker 2: like she's I don't know, twenty nine or something, and 1057 00:51:33,956 --> 00:51:37,596 Speaker 2: she's just like her skin's all just like beautiful and chotchy, 1058 00:51:37,636 --> 00:51:41,196 Speaker 2: and she just it's amazing seeing like a woman and she's, 1059 00:51:41,356 --> 00:51:43,676 Speaker 2: you know, a serious statued woman. And then Smoky looks 1060 00:51:43,756 --> 00:51:46,716 Speaker 2: kind of small next to her, and she's the piano 1061 00:51:46,836 --> 00:51:48,556 Speaker 2: player and he's kind of perched on the end of 1062 00:51:48,596 --> 00:51:50,676 Speaker 2: the thing. It's just like something you maybe hadn't even 1063 00:51:50,716 --> 00:51:52,276 Speaker 2: seen in terms of gender. 1064 00:51:52,036 --> 00:51:55,916 Speaker 1: On TV reversal. Yeah, you're right, Oh, that version as like, 1065 00:51:56,076 --> 00:51:58,516 Speaker 1: holy shit, her piano playing. 1066 00:51:59,796 --> 00:52:03,916 Speaker 2: Just everything, and like just thinking of her being in church, 1067 00:52:04,036 --> 00:52:07,436 Speaker 2: you know, with a hair pulled back, playing behind her father, 1068 00:52:07,676 --> 00:52:10,716 Speaker 2: who was like a superstar Cel Franklin, wasn't he, which 1069 00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:13,356 Speaker 2: you sort of forget about that. She really came up 1070 00:52:13,436 --> 00:52:18,076 Speaker 2: through gospel music and kind of the business of gospel music, right, 1071 00:52:18,116 --> 00:52:21,996 Speaker 2: people travel far and white to see him. His daughter 1072 00:52:22,116 --> 00:52:25,316 Speaker 2: that could also sing was kind of the side side 1073 00:52:25,356 --> 00:52:28,676 Speaker 2: showed to him. He was the main artist. And just 1074 00:52:28,796 --> 00:52:31,396 Speaker 2: to think coming up under that training just you cannot 1075 00:52:31,476 --> 00:52:34,276 Speaker 2: go wrong from there. But yet I think Areatha is 1076 00:52:34,276 --> 00:52:39,156 Speaker 2: probably the absolute pinnacle, you know, the top, and you 1077 00:52:39,196 --> 00:52:41,596 Speaker 2: always feel like you feel like she's there, you know that, Oh, 1078 00:52:41,676 --> 00:52:43,636 Speaker 2: she's reached kind of the top of her range and 1079 00:52:43,716 --> 00:52:47,596 Speaker 2: then the show was just like seventeen more, you know, 1080 00:52:47,836 --> 00:52:50,996 Speaker 2: like hold tones from there, just like she just shifts 1081 00:52:51,036 --> 00:52:55,916 Speaker 2: a gear. Yeah, so maybe, yeah. I always worry wonder 1082 00:52:56,036 --> 00:52:58,356 Speaker 2: I shouldn't say I worried. I wonder about the later 1083 00:52:58,476 --> 00:53:00,516 Speaker 2: part of her career, And it sort of makes me 1084 00:53:00,596 --> 00:53:04,676 Speaker 2: feel sad for music that in a way, like in 1085 00:53:04,796 --> 00:53:07,476 Speaker 2: the eighties it was sort of less room for a singer. 1086 00:53:07,596 --> 00:53:11,076 Speaker 2: There was less room for I don't know, late phrasing 1087 00:53:11,316 --> 00:53:13,876 Speaker 2: or taking your time or space, like the arrangements became 1088 00:53:14,036 --> 00:53:17,396 Speaker 2: really dense, and the only type of voice that could 1089 00:53:17,436 --> 00:53:19,516 Speaker 2: sit on top of it would be like a sort 1090 00:53:19,516 --> 00:53:22,116 Speaker 2: of Michael Jackson's voice. You know, there's loads of air 1091 00:53:22,276 --> 00:53:26,436 Speaker 2: in there. It's really like course Michael stabs through important times. 1092 00:53:26,956 --> 00:53:29,036 Speaker 2: But I felt like in the eighties there wasn't really 1093 00:53:29,076 --> 00:53:32,796 Speaker 2: the room in production in hip music. I always feel 1094 00:53:32,836 --> 00:53:35,636 Speaker 2: sad when music kind of takes a turn and it 1095 00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:38,076 Speaker 2: means like an artist just gets sort of chucked away, 1096 00:53:38,236 --> 00:53:40,596 Speaker 2: like how it was for Bill Withers, kind of so 1097 00:53:40,756 --> 00:53:42,156 Speaker 2: are you going to do disco? Bill? 1098 00:53:42,756 --> 00:53:42,796 Speaker 1: No? 1099 00:53:43,356 --> 00:53:46,276 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, you know by and then you don't really 1100 00:53:46,356 --> 00:53:49,636 Speaker 2: hear his records, you know, into the nineties, and obviously 1101 00:53:49,676 --> 00:53:51,756 Speaker 2: then there's a cover of Lovely Day and he's sort 1102 00:53:51,796 --> 00:53:52,316 Speaker 2: of back out. 1103 00:53:53,596 --> 00:53:53,756 Speaker 1: You know. 1104 00:53:53,916 --> 00:53:55,996 Speaker 2: That's again another thing I think of as artist, you know, 1105 00:53:56,276 --> 00:53:59,916 Speaker 2: was Bill Withers' label saying, we'll look how well Stevie's doing, 1106 00:54:00,276 --> 00:54:02,596 Speaker 2: will look how well this person's doing, and you're I mean, 1107 00:54:03,156 --> 00:54:06,756 Speaker 2: Live from Carnegie Hall didn't have a good reception, and 1108 00:54:06,796 --> 00:54:09,436 Speaker 2: it's one of my favorite records of all time. 1109 00:54:09,956 --> 00:54:11,396 Speaker 1: That's an insane right, yeah, but it was. 1110 00:54:11,516 --> 00:54:14,996 Speaker 2: It wasn't well received because my dad's got these magazines 1111 00:54:15,276 --> 00:54:18,316 Speaker 2: and it wasn't sort of well reviewed, you know. Oh 1112 00:54:18,436 --> 00:54:21,356 Speaker 2: you know, it's old material and it didn't have the 1113 00:54:21,436 --> 00:54:23,556 Speaker 2: spot I was thinking it all. 1114 00:54:24,156 --> 00:54:26,516 Speaker 1: But it's elevating all the songs that if they get 1115 00:54:26,556 --> 00:54:29,476 Speaker 1: to all the songs, you know, but just I don't 1116 00:54:29,476 --> 00:54:30,756 Speaker 1: want to say better, but it's just. 1117 00:54:30,876 --> 00:54:35,676 Speaker 2: Another talking about grandma's hands for longer than the length 1118 00:54:35,716 --> 00:54:38,196 Speaker 2: of Grandma's hands. But that's the version I played to 1119 00:54:38,276 --> 00:54:41,436 Speaker 2: my kids, and they know that speaking part as well 1120 00:54:41,476 --> 00:54:43,396 Speaker 2: as they know the song, you know, and it's like 1121 00:54:43,636 --> 00:54:47,596 Speaker 2: I love that old lady, Love that old lady. Just 1122 00:54:47,716 --> 00:54:51,756 Speaker 2: his rap he's talking is it's as great as a song. 1123 00:54:52,156 --> 00:54:54,476 Speaker 2: What a good person, what a good human? So that's 1124 00:54:54,476 --> 00:54:56,116 Speaker 2: the other thing I think of as an artist is 1125 00:54:56,636 --> 00:54:59,076 Speaker 2: you can be in a moment and think, oh, well, 1126 00:54:59,396 --> 00:55:02,596 Speaker 2: my work is not as well known or as popular 1127 00:55:02,676 --> 00:55:05,236 Speaker 2: as X, Y Z, A, B, C, D and E. 1128 00:55:06,116 --> 00:55:08,156 Speaker 2: That's not why you're doing your thing. You're doing your 1129 00:55:08,196 --> 00:55:10,916 Speaker 2: thing because you're doing your And I think there's always time. 1130 00:55:10,996 --> 00:55:13,116 Speaker 2: You know, sometimes people might not get into a record 1131 00:55:13,396 --> 00:55:16,516 Speaker 2: till the person's died, but then it's it's made, it's there. 1132 00:55:17,356 --> 00:55:18,636 Speaker 1: Do you think of yourself as a singer. 1133 00:55:19,836 --> 00:55:21,796 Speaker 2: I think of myself as I guess I think of 1134 00:55:21,836 --> 00:55:24,396 Speaker 2: myself as a singer, and I think of myself as 1135 00:55:24,436 --> 00:55:29,476 Speaker 2: a music maker. You know, I like my voice. I 1136 00:55:29,516 --> 00:55:31,556 Speaker 2: don't know. I remember doing loads of award shows and 1137 00:55:31,636 --> 00:55:34,316 Speaker 2: stuff with my first record and thinking, oh, it's funny 1138 00:55:34,316 --> 00:55:36,636 Speaker 2: when you're divorced from like, it's not your song, it's 1139 00:55:36,716 --> 00:55:39,276 Speaker 2: not your arrangement, it's not your production. I'm not playing 1140 00:55:39,316 --> 00:55:41,756 Speaker 2: my guitar, it's not with my band, you know. I'd 1141 00:55:41,756 --> 00:55:43,836 Speaker 2: feel really like, well, what can I bring to this? 1142 00:55:43,996 --> 00:55:45,716 Speaker 2: They literally want me to sort of put a dress 1143 00:55:45,796 --> 00:55:48,876 Speaker 2: on and heels and just kind of go. But I 1144 00:55:48,956 --> 00:55:51,596 Speaker 2: did find that I had something to say, so yeah, 1145 00:55:51,676 --> 00:55:53,036 Speaker 2: I do see myself as a singer. 1146 00:55:53,196 --> 00:55:55,436 Speaker 1: What were the best versions of that in your mind? 1147 00:55:56,636 --> 00:55:58,956 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean I got to sing in a 1148 00:55:58,996 --> 00:56:01,516 Speaker 2: Wreatha Franklin song. I got to say, I'm trying to 1149 00:56:01,556 --> 00:56:04,756 Speaker 2: think angel. It was a music Cares was honoring a 1150 00:56:04,836 --> 00:56:07,516 Speaker 2: reutha Franklin. So although I never got to meet her, 1151 00:56:07,596 --> 00:56:09,756 Speaker 2: I was kind of like I was next to her, 1152 00:56:09,836 --> 00:56:11,156 Speaker 2: you know, in the red carpet. So she had this 1153 00:56:11,356 --> 00:56:14,116 Speaker 2: white fur coat on this like it was kind of 1154 00:56:14,796 --> 00:56:18,316 Speaker 2: split low so you can see her, you know, a 1155 00:56:18,436 --> 00:56:22,236 Speaker 2: beautiful figure. And she played a few songs at the 1156 00:56:22,356 --> 00:56:24,196 Speaker 2: end of the night and that was amazing. But yeah, 1157 00:56:24,236 --> 00:56:29,036 Speaker 2: I remember singing I just played. It was Abe Laboreal 1158 00:56:29,316 --> 00:56:33,756 Speaker 2: Junior and La Boreal Senior and so yeah, he plays 1159 00:56:33,796 --> 00:56:36,756 Speaker 2: with mcartney and then I think his dad plays guitar, 1160 00:56:37,156 --> 00:56:39,676 Speaker 2: so that even just the band was ridiculous. And I 1161 00:56:39,756 --> 00:56:41,596 Speaker 2: think I had my guitar. I don't even know I did, 1162 00:56:41,716 --> 00:56:45,476 Speaker 2: but I just was playing the cruds really simply. But yeah, 1163 00:56:45,556 --> 00:56:49,076 Speaker 2: getting to do that and knowing she was there that 1164 00:56:49,316 --> 00:56:50,516 Speaker 2: that was really amazing. 1165 00:56:50,276 --> 00:56:52,596 Speaker 1: And it worked. Do you feel like it worked? Yeah? 1166 00:56:52,716 --> 00:56:55,156 Speaker 2: It worked. It worked, and I heard she liked it, 1167 00:56:55,596 --> 00:56:58,236 Speaker 2: you know, So that's all you can. I think a 1168 00:56:58,276 --> 00:57:00,156 Speaker 2: lot of people were really trying to like sang like 1169 00:57:00,356 --> 00:57:03,516 Speaker 2: out sing Aretha kind of thing, like in Aretha Franklin tribute. 1170 00:57:03,796 --> 00:57:06,876 Speaker 2: But I think everyone was just trying to shine. My 1171 00:57:06,956 --> 00:57:09,476 Speaker 2: way of shining was like trying not to do that. 1172 00:57:09,876 --> 00:57:12,116 Speaker 2: Don't try to do that thing, just trying you know, 1173 00:57:12,196 --> 00:57:14,116 Speaker 2: this is a good song I was sort of honoring 1174 00:57:14,196 --> 00:57:15,236 Speaker 2: as a songwriters. 1175 00:57:16,036 --> 00:57:17,636 Speaker 1: Yeah that's great. Yeah cool. 1176 00:57:17,676 --> 00:57:20,036 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much, Thank you, Thank you. 1177 00:57:23,236 --> 00:57:25,116 Speaker 1: Thanks Bim Bailey Ray for meeting up in La to 1178 00:57:25,196 --> 00:57:28,636 Speaker 1: chat about her book Reflections Refractions at the Stony Allen 1179 00:57:28,796 --> 00:57:31,476 Speaker 1: Arts Bank with us. You can hear a playlist of 1180 00:57:31,516 --> 00:57:34,196 Speaker 1: our favorite songs from Krim Daily Ray at broken Record 1181 00:57:34,236 --> 00:57:38,156 Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube 1182 00:57:38,196 --> 00:57:40,956 Speaker 1: dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where you can find 1183 00:57:41,116 --> 00:57:44,036 Speaker 1: all of our new episodes. You can follow us on 1184 00:57:44,076 --> 00:57:47,796 Speaker 1: Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited 1185 00:57:47,876 --> 00:57:50,596 Speaker 1: by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and 1186 00:57:50,676 --> 00:57:54,756 Speaker 1: Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday. Broken Record is 1187 00:57:54,796 --> 00:57:58,116 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show 1188 00:57:58,276 --> 00:58:02,796 Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin 1189 00:58:02,836 --> 00:58:05,836 Speaker 1: Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and 1190 00:58:05,916 --> 00:58:09,356 Speaker 1: ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look 1191 00:58:09,396 --> 00:58:12,996 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you 1192 00:58:13,156 --> 00:58:15,716 Speaker 1: like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review 1193 00:58:15,796 --> 00:58:18,756 Speaker 1: us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Anny Beats. 1194 00:58:18,996 --> 00:58:20,036 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.