Speaker 1: Hey, it's royber Jr. Up. Next a special episode of
Speaker 1: Beyond the Scenes, where I sit down with Texas based
Speaker 1: abortion provider Dr Gozlo Moietti an abortion advocate Renee Bracey
Speaker 1: Sherman to discuss the recent wave of anti abortion legislation.
Speaker 1: Heavi listen. Quick note this podcast was recorded before the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court struck down Roe v. Wade, and by the
Speaker 1: time you listen, things may have changed. Hey, welcome to
Speaker 1: Beyond the Scenes, the daily show podcast that goes a
Speaker 1: little deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on
Speaker 1: the show. Today, you're doing something a little different now.
Speaker 1: Back in December, I sat down with O. B. G
Speaker 1: u I n an abortion provider Dr Gozlo Moietti, to
Speaker 1: discuss abortion bands in Texas right after s B eight
Speaker 1: was introduced. We talked about misconceptions about abortion, the anti
Speaker 1: abortion movements, roots of it in white supremacy, and how
Speaker 1: abortion has become more about politics than science in America.
Speaker 1: Now we know the buzz that is happening around the
Speaker 1: nation this year, so we wanted to follow up on
Speaker 1: that conversation and invite Dr Moiety back on the show.
Speaker 1: Dr Moyetti, thank you for being here again. I promised
Speaker 1: the third time bringing back It's gonna be about something
Speaker 1: happy alight, problem was gonna be puppies were gonna bring
Speaker 1: you back for the puppy episode the scene. Also joining
Speaker 1: us as the founder and executive director of We Testify,
Speaker 1: an organization dedicated to the leadership and representation of people
Speaker 1: who have abortions. Renee Bracy Sherman, welcome to be on
Speaker 1: the scenes. Thank you so much for having me. Let's
Speaker 1: dig in here because we are we have a lot
Speaker 1: of time pack here. Dr Moyetti. Last we talked, you
Speaker 1: were based in Texas but traveling to Oklahoma to give care.
Speaker 1: But now Oklahoma has passed and enacted some of the
Speaker 1: most restrictive abortion bands in the country. Can you run
Speaker 1: us through how your work has shifted over the past
Speaker 1: few months based on how these laws start popping up
Speaker 1: like wack a mole. Yeah. So, you know, up until
Speaker 1: September of last year, I was providing abortion care both
Speaker 1: in Texas and Oklahoma. Once SBA hit, I transitioned to
Speaker 1: traveling to Oklahoma pretty consistently to take care of people there.
Speaker 1: And for the past you know, nine plus months, um,
Speaker 1: well six seven plus months, I have been going to
Speaker 1: Oklahoma and taking care of Texans. Oklahoma's, our kans Ins, Kansens,
Speaker 1: Louisiana's like everyone from our region has been flooding Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: And that was really up until April from me. So
Speaker 1: I had been planning on continuing to go and work
Speaker 1: there really until the decision came down and Oklahoma decided
Speaker 1: to yeehaw one more step past Texas, And yeah, I
Speaker 1: haven't been able to go. And so what's on the
Speaker 1: horizon for me? I mean, Roy, do you have a job, Like,
Speaker 1: do you need a daily show abortion provider? Does Comedy
Speaker 1: Central needs someone? Because it's grim? It's grim what our
Speaker 1: future holds with regards to that grim future, Madam Sherman,
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the Supreme Court for
Speaker 1: a second. Now, Now, there was a leaked document, you know,
Speaker 1: a draft of a Supreme Court ruling that would ultimately,
Speaker 1: yes shitty draft that would lead to the overturn of
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade. Now, as of that second, that hasn't
Speaker 1: happened yet, but it seems very likely if Roe v.
Speaker 1: Wade is overturned. What's the risk of if and when
Speaker 1: that happens? Everything is that risk? When that happens, m
Speaker 1: I think we need to take that draft very seriously.
Speaker 1: We've always been operating that they would and could overturn
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade. That was the goal of installing the
Speaker 1: justices on the Supreme Court that they did, um and
Speaker 1: that's honestly been the goal that they've been working on
Speaker 1: for the last decade. They have never lied about what
Speaker 1: they were trying to do. They always wanted to overturn
Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade because they saw Roe v. Wade as
Speaker 1: a way to install white nationalist Christian control over people. Right.
Speaker 1: If they could get that, they could control us on
Speaker 1: a lot of different things. And so they exploited abortion
Speaker 1: as an issue particularly to impact black and brown people,
Speaker 1: low income folks, right. And so when they get that,
Speaker 1: that is kind of this last piece that is holding
Speaker 1: our ability to decide if, when, and how to grow
Speaker 1: our families, how to raise our families to be able
Speaker 1: to live free of state sanctioned violence and coercion. So
Speaker 1: when the overturn happens, and I'm happy to be wrong,
Speaker 1: but when it does happen, what we are going to
Speaker 1: see is large scale mass incarceration of people who are
Speaker 1: being surveilled simply because they're pregnant and their pregnancies don't
Speaker 1: end in a healthy labor and delivery. Right, So this
Speaker 1: isn't just about people who are seeking abortions facing criminalization
Speaker 1: and harassment, denial of care, all of these human rights violations,
Speaker 1: but also we're already seeing it for people who have
Speaker 1: still births, people who have miscarriages, people who use idea,
Speaker 1: people who may be use substances or do things that
Speaker 1: are deemed questionable during their pregnancies. Right, it really is
Speaker 1: going to impact all of us who are pregnant, could
Speaker 1: be pregnant, and and put us under this this mass
Speaker 1: surveillance under the guise of banning abortion. So this is
Speaker 1: really really impacting all of us. On top of the
Speaker 1: fact that Roe v. Wade is the bedrock for so
Speaker 1: many of our freedoms and right to privacy, and so
Speaker 1: losing that is going to undermine so many freedoms in
Speaker 1: the next decade or two to come. Dr Moyetti talk
Speaker 1: to us a little bit about that criminalization side of it,
Speaker 1: because I know right now, you know Texas and Oklahoma
Speaker 1: already you know kind of post Roe V. Wade to
Speaker 1: nined states have bands there approach their round and third
Speaker 1: and hated for home as the song will go in
Speaker 1: center field. Uh, talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 1: those criminal liabilities that could start the criminalistic ripple effects. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean they've already started. Just a few months ago,
Speaker 1: we had a national case case that got national tensioned
Speaker 1: here in Texas. Lizzel Herrera, a woman on the US
Speaker 1: Mexico border, arrested, held on five hundred thousand dollars bond
Speaker 1: fail for having a miscarriage. Right, it's not even something
Speaker 1: illegal yet, but the guys of criminality creates vigilantes, vigilantees
Speaker 1: among physicians, among nurses, among hospitals, community workers, social workers.
Speaker 1: We already see this happening, and they're they again, they're
Speaker 1: telling on themselves. This is their plan. Right in Texas
Speaker 1: last session, and I believe the session before, bills were
Speaker 1: introduced that would require women people that are pregnant to
Speaker 1: go talk to crisis pregnancy centers, register with them, if
Speaker 1: you will, with their pregnancies before they were allowed to
Speaker 1: make an abortion decision. Other states are passing laws where
Speaker 1: people have to get fake counseling from religious groups, entering
Speaker 1: them into pregnancy surveillance. Right, Um, this happens surveillance, surveying
Speaker 1: the religious group. How do we know a religious group
Speaker 1: qualified qualified? They aren't. They aren't qualified, right, It's bananas.
Speaker 1: One thing I want to add is that again, this
Speaker 1: issue has been posed as like something that's happening to
Speaker 1: people who want and have abortions, and so a lot
Speaker 1: of people kind of look at it as, oh, well,
Speaker 1: I'm never have an abortion, so this won't impact me.
Speaker 1: But the reality is that pregnancies can go wrong at
Speaker 1: any moment. At any moment, anyone could need some type
Speaker 1: of medical care that would be close to an abortion,
Speaker 1: or or could be deemed by some religious institution that
Speaker 1: we don't do that right. And what's really scary about
Speaker 1: this moment is that they get to dictate the medical
Speaker 1: care based on religious doctrine and not the health and
Speaker 1: safety of the patient and what the medical provider, the nurse,
Speaker 1: the doctor, the dulah, whoever, whatever they they see in
Speaker 1: that patient is best. And I think what's also scary
Speaker 1: about it. I'm gonna pull out one of my favorite books.
Speaker 1: UM professor Michelle Goodman wrote Policing the Womb, and in
Speaker 1: it she talks about how UM there have been pregnant
Speaker 1: people who have refused certain types of care and their
Speaker 1: pregnancies because they didn't feel like that's the way that
Speaker 1: what they wanted to do um and it wasn't necessary.
Speaker 1: And doctors have gone to the courts to judges to
Speaker 1: compel them to go through with a certain type of
Speaker 1: medical care. And I think what's scary is that we
Speaker 1: trust our medical providers to show up for us, not
Speaker 1: turn us into the cops, or turn us into the courts,
Speaker 1: or turn us into Christian zealots. And that is not
Speaker 1: only what some have done for years, because again, people
Speaker 1: have been arrested for the outcomes of their pregnancies for decades,
Speaker 1: but what the state in these laws is now come
Speaker 1: telling them to do. And that is what is so
Speaker 1: scary about this criminalization of abortion and criminalization of pregnancy. Okay,
Speaker 1: so then to that point, Madam Sherman, Now you've been
Speaker 1: on the front lines of this issue for years abortion advocacy, right,
Speaker 1: and so when we start criminalizing the outcomes of a
Speaker 1: pregnancy and the people let's just say, I'm the person
Speaker 1: who drives my friend to go get the abortion, then
Speaker 1: I'm in the cross theirs too, Right, does this pressure
Speaker 1: on pregnant women also extend criminalistically speaking to the people
Speaker 1: who assist them in getting the abortion and the medical
Speaker 1: providers who may or may not take action. Is it
Speaker 1: possible that medical providers feel the need to report people
Speaker 1: to the police for fear that they themselves could be
Speaker 1: arrested if they didn't do everything they were supposed to
Speaker 1: do by whatever weird health Surgeon general bullshit that that
Speaker 1: state has on the books for prey. So as Dr
Speaker 1: Marietta can speak about as well, like, there's no medical
Speaker 1: reason for there's no ethics reasons that a medical provider
Speaker 1: would need to turn in a patient to the police
Speaker 1: because they might have self managed their abortion or because
Speaker 1: something's going wrong in their pregnancy. Um, what all of
Speaker 1: these laws are designed to do is to isolate the
Speaker 1: person who's having an abortion, so they have no one
Speaker 1: to turn to. So they can't tell the truth to
Speaker 1: their doctor because they're afraid their doctor might turn them in.
Speaker 1: They can't go to their friend or loved one because
Speaker 1: they are afraid their friend or loved one might be
Speaker 1: sued or you know, also face some sort of criminal
Speaker 1: charges for helping them get an abortion. So what they're
Speaker 1: doing is isolating us, so we have nobody to turn
Speaker 1: to for support, and the state is telling everyone that
Speaker 1: if someone comes to you needs an abortion, your duty,
Speaker 1: your role goal is to turn them into the police,
Speaker 1: not offer them any sort of love, support and care,
Speaker 1: which that is not how we build communities, That is
Speaker 1: not how we build families. Right. They're taking what we've
Speaker 1: seen in the immigration movement where people can't talk about
Speaker 1: the fact that they are undocumented because they're afraid someone
Speaker 1: might turn them in. That is really, really scary, And
Speaker 1: we're creating this mass surveillance in our communities where the
Speaker 1: government is telling everyday people that it is your duty
Speaker 1: too if you see something, say something. Well, we already
Speaker 1: know that that bullshit program does nothing right. We don't
Speaker 1: need to be exporting it to our communities and to
Speaker 1: healthcare into how we show up with love and support
Speaker 1: for one another after the break, Dr Mayetti, I want
Speaker 1: to get into the rock and a hard place that
Speaker 1: well you know it, it ain't a rock and a
Speaker 1: hard places as rock and the right thing place. It's
Speaker 1: not hard that a lot of our health care professionals
Speaker 1: are in and the role that religion plays into how
Speaker 1: hospitals have decided to treat this whole abortion issue. As
Speaker 1: a whole. We'll be right back. This is beyond the scenes. Now,
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the health care system
Speaker 1: in this country. And you know, we talked a little
Speaker 1: bit first about the potential people who are affected by this,
Speaker 1: but let's talk a little bit about the role that
Speaker 1: the hospitals play in the health of not just pregnant women,
Speaker 1: but also women who aren't pregnant because these laws that
Speaker 1: let's just start there, Dr Moyetie talk about how these
Speaker 1: laws also affect women who aren't even pregnant because the
Speaker 1: doctors are too scared to prescribe medicine. Yeah. Um, well,
Speaker 1: right now, in Texas, we had a bill that was enacted,
Speaker 1: it was past last year and acted in December that
Speaker 1: made the distribution of medication an abortion pills or any
Speaker 1: pills that could cause an abortion criminal past seven weeks.
Speaker 1: So that is not only impacting I mean, we already
Speaker 1: have this um other abortion band that's preventing abortions at
Speaker 1: seven weeks. But what we're seeing is that pharmacists aren't
Speaker 1: dispensing medications that yes, can be used for an abortion,
Speaker 1: but are also used to treat other conditions to people
Speaker 1: that they perceive as women and capable of being pregnant.
Speaker 1: So that includes chemotherapy medications, rheumatology medications for people that
Speaker 1: have like rheumatoid arthritis. It includes medications that help someone
Speaker 1: open their cervix prior to a uterine procedure, not in
Speaker 1: the setting of pregnancy. Um all of that, right, and
Speaker 1: just because the pharmacist thinks you might be a woman
Speaker 1: who can potentially get pregnant, they're going to question you
Speaker 1: about getting your chemotherapy medication. They're refusing to dispense to
Speaker 1: people because it could potentially be for an abortion, and
Speaker 1: then the pharmacist could be criminally liable. So it creates
Speaker 1: this whole system of fear, suspicion profiling, right, gender based
Speaker 1: profiling RENEE. If you could talk a little bit about,
Speaker 1: like how do the hospitals themselves, because if it's one
Speaker 1: thing I know about health care in America, it's not uniform,
Speaker 1: it ain't McDonald's, and that it sucks. Well, of course, yes,
Speaker 1: each hospital got a different rule, each hospital got a
Speaker 1: different policy. It comes down to the preferences of that
Speaker 1: particular practitioner. How do the hospitals themselves help determine the
Speaker 1: kind of care anyone receives, especially when so many of
Speaker 1: them are run by religious institutions. Right, So, I think
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't realize is how many
Speaker 1: hospitals operate under a religious doctrine, in particular a Catholic doctrine.
Speaker 1: The Catholic Church and and visually affiliated hospitals have sort
Speaker 1: of been buying up hospitals all across the country, and
Speaker 1: so people don't know that the hospital that they used
Speaker 1: to go to may have changed hands. And so in
Speaker 1: an emergency, you might be having a miscarriage, or you
Speaker 1: might want an abortion, whatever it is, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, they say, we don't do that here, and
Speaker 1: then the care that you need is being held up
Speaker 1: because you're trying to figure out why don't you do
Speaker 1: it here? Okay, well where do I go? And this
Speaker 1: is again not just about abortion and not just impacting
Speaker 1: women people a non binary people and trans people have abortions,
Speaker 1: but this also shows up when non binary and trans
Speaker 1: people are looking for gender affirming care. They go to
Speaker 1: a hospital and they may say the insurance company says, yes,
Speaker 1: we'll do the hystoracted me. Every doctor says yes we'll
Speaker 1: do they hystorrected me. Everyone says yes, and then they
Speaker 1: realize that it is because someone wants to transition to
Speaker 1: the gender identity that fits for them right there, trans man,
Speaker 1: and then they say, oh, actually, we don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. They'll hand out hormone replacement therapies, they'll hand
Speaker 1: out all sorts of estrogen shots and whatever, until they
Speaker 1: realize that you're a trans woman, and then they say, oh,
Speaker 1: actually we won't give that. So what it's really doing
Speaker 1: is this gender based care. So long as you adhere
Speaker 1: two extremely outdated ideas of gender identity, sex segregation, and
Speaker 1: and the ways in which you're supposed to perform feminine nous, womanhood, manhood,
Speaker 1: all of those things. And if you don't adhere to that,
Speaker 1: because you do not want to continue your pregnancy, because
Speaker 1: you'd like to save your life, because I don't even
Speaker 1: like to save your life, because you'd like to transition
Speaker 1: your gender, they will say no, because we decided that
Speaker 1: this religious And let's be clear, this Christian, often Catholic,
Speaker 1: but Christian doctrine says this, and it's bullshit because Catholic
Speaker 1: doctrine didn't say this until the eighteen sixties. I've been
Speaker 1: reading a lot of books on the history of abortion.
Speaker 1: People doing have been doing abortions for four thousand years.
Speaker 1: Abortion is older than y'all's Bible. Okay, abortion is older
Speaker 1: than every single one of y'all's hospitals. So it's simply
Speaker 1: this preference of forcing us into a white Christian nationalist
Speaker 1: belief and adherence to the gender binary and whiteness, not
Speaker 1: based on any sort of actual medical care. So to
Speaker 1: that point, Dr Moyetti, it seems that, well, here's a
Speaker 1: here's a moralistic question. How do health care providers. Because
Speaker 1: you all went to medical school for eight nine years
Speaker 1: and then you took out all them loans from medical
Speaker 1: school four hundred thousand dollars, you get a pay back
Speaker 1: in the spirit of wanting to help people and be
Speaker 1: a conduit to help people live a better life. But
Speaker 1: then your place within a health care system and within
Speaker 1: the government that tells you to withhold care from a patient,
Speaker 1: how do health care professionals? How are they able to
Speaker 1: work within that system? How are they able to reconcile that?
Speaker 1: It really depends on how you come into medicine, And sadly,
Speaker 1: we aren't really taught in medical schools the social justice
Speaker 1: aspect of medical care but for example, me and other
Speaker 1: of my colleagues, like we went into medicine as an
Speaker 1: instrument of social justice. I became a physician because I
Speaker 1: saw that as an avenue to improve justice in my
Speaker 1: own munity. And that is not the framework that we
Speaker 1: get a lot of times. Right, We're just taught that
Speaker 1: there are these social determinants of health, that maybe some
Speaker 1: social things could impact you, and not that like literally
Speaker 1: racism and white supremacy cause poor outcomes. Right, that it's
Speaker 1: placed on the person, that your individual identity is what's
Speaker 1: causing you problems, and not these systems of oppression that
Speaker 1: we have to work through. And so it's really on
Speaker 1: us as um physicians who are already kind of in
Speaker 1: the work, to be teaching in that way to up
Speaker 1: and coming physicians that it is your duty to stand
Speaker 1: up for your community, that health is not just in
Speaker 1: the exam room, but outside of the exam room, and
Speaker 1: that it is our duty to speak up. It's our
Speaker 1: duty to leverage our power for the good of our community.
Speaker 1: And so really it is on physician educators to be
Speaker 1: teaching through a social justice lens. And if you don't
Speaker 1: know what that means, it's your job to learn. Also,
Speaker 1: how are you treating people if you don't actually understand
Speaker 1: the things that are happening in their lives and what
Speaker 1: they're living around. How can you blame somebody for having
Speaker 1: asthma and not the incinerator that was placed right next
Speaker 1: to their school. You can't treat people without looking at
Speaker 1: what is happening in their lives and what's going on,
Speaker 1: and it's our lives are not in a vacuum or
Speaker 1: healthcare is just is not separate from these things. And
Speaker 1: any medical provider that is ignoring that, I fear doesn't
Speaker 1: really want to take care of their patients as a
Speaker 1: whole person. They want to treat the tiny issue and
Speaker 1: move on and not take care of a whole person.
Speaker 1: Here's a broader question for the both of you. Where
Speaker 1: is the insurance? Where does the health insurance industry abolished
Speaker 1: reliance because they was getting money. You would think the
Speaker 1: health you would think the health insurance to be like, yes,
Speaker 1: go get everything and we'll charge and then a thousand. No,
Speaker 1: let's so even they are siding with the government more
Speaker 1: often than not on this issue, but not wanting to
Speaker 1: cover the procedures. It's complicated, right, Insurance companies. Honestly, I
Speaker 1: don't think they care. They don't. They don't give a
Speaker 1: ship to be really clear, like they're they're in the
Speaker 1: in the business of denying coverage for services anyway, because
Speaker 1: if they have to pay out of it, that actually
Speaker 1: cuts into their profits. So the way, even if insurance
Speaker 1: does cover abortion now, which in the state of Texas,
Speaker 1: for example, private insurance is by law cannot cover it.
Speaker 1: Even if the estate does allow for abortion to be covered,
Speaker 1: they put it under like a little line that will
Speaker 1: say like outpatient surgery. So a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: even know that their health insurance does cover an abortion.
Speaker 1: If it does, and in what's happened with me, I
Speaker 1: go to the doctor and get a blood panel done,
Speaker 1: and then the insurance company is like, yeah, I we'll
Speaker 1: kick it back. We're not going to cover it, and
Speaker 1: then you have to fight with them to get them
Speaker 1: to cover it over and over and over again. So
Speaker 1: the more that they can have you pay for insurance
Speaker 1: and not have to even do the claim or like
Speaker 1: the denial of the claim, that's better for them because
Speaker 1: they get to pocket that money and you still have
Speaker 1: to pay for that abortion out of pocket. Most people
Speaker 1: who have abortions, even if they have insurance still pay
Speaker 1: for it out of pocket. I just went to the
Speaker 1: doctor the other day, and my doctor and I we're
Speaker 1: both like complaining about insurance companies because it feels like
Speaker 1: when you're in the exam room, yes, you both have
Speaker 1: the government in there and been an invisible chair, and
Speaker 1: then you also have this invisible chair of the insurance
Speaker 1: company because she wrote me a scription of cream, and
Speaker 1: the pharmacists while I was still in the room, called
Speaker 1: and said, oh, your insurance isn't going to cover this.
Speaker 1: And it's wild because I'm sitting there with my doctor
Speaker 1: telling me. She's like, this is what you need for
Speaker 1: this ear infection, and the insurance company is like, no,
Speaker 1: you don't. It's wild. And so what we're seeing then
Speaker 1: with abortion too is not only is the invisible government
Speaker 1: being like, you don't need that, the insurance companies are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't need that. And even if you think you do,
Speaker 1: that's cool, you pay for it. We're not going to
Speaker 1: pay for it. They're not stepping up because they fundamentally
Speaker 1: don't want to change healthcare in this country. That is
Speaker 1: why they oppose a national health system. That is why
Speaker 1: they're not actually doing anything to make healthcare more accessible.
Speaker 1: It's really really frustrating that we have to figure out
Speaker 1: how to unfunck this system, but we can't with corporations
Speaker 1: doing it. Alice to say one last thing, I hope
Speaker 1: your listeners don't fall for the bullshit pr from all
Speaker 1: of the corporations that are like will help pay for
Speaker 1: our employees to fly out of state to get, you know,
Speaker 1: an abortion if they need it. Here's the thing noticed
Speaker 1: that a those companies are all union busting right now,
Speaker 1: so they're not supporting their workers in the way the
Speaker 1: workers are asking for. But also they installed the very
Speaker 1: politicians that passed these laws. You can't make this promise
Speaker 1: to your employees without getting to the root cause of that.
Speaker 1: You are giving money to make these laws happen and
Speaker 1: keep them. This way, you can keep your abortion funding money.
Speaker 1: Well maybe you should keep it. You should, you still
Speaker 1: is it. But what would be more impactful on a
Speaker 1: systemic level would be for them to promise that they
Speaker 1: will not fund any anti abortion or any anti LGBT politicians.
Speaker 1: But they won't do it because they know at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, those politicians are doing their bidding
Speaker 1: and so they're fine with the status quo. Dr Moti
Speaker 1: to to that point of unfucking this system, to undoing
Speaker 1: this system. Right, are doctors talking to other doctors? What
Speaker 1: are the options that a doctor has to try and
Speaker 1: circumvent some of these bands that are going on that
Speaker 1: you all are talking about. Now, this is a terrible analogy,
Speaker 1: but you have to understand, I'm a man, I have
Speaker 1: no experience with women's health care. I remember trying to
Speaker 1: go to Best Buy to get a TV and they
Speaker 1: didn't have the TV, and then the employee, like when
Speaker 1: you're buying something in retail, the employee pulls you to
Speaker 1: the side. I'm not supposed to tell you this, but
Speaker 1: Circuit City got the same. Even my friend they got
Speaker 1: him in stock a Circus City. Go to Circuit City.
Speaker 1: Wink wink. Does that type of world exists or is
Speaker 1: that also criminal? Because you may be a doctor that
Speaker 1: works in Texas and you can't do what this patient
Speaker 1: needs legally, can you pull that patient to decide and go, hey,
Speaker 1: I know someone over here, or here's some things you
Speaker 1: can do. Here's the phone number, wink wink, I can
Speaker 1: slip you what what are what are the options for
Speaker 1: medical professionals to circumvent these bands. Yeah, I mean for
Speaker 1: years we have been working in this Circuit City best
Speaker 1: buy scenario. Honestly that like, I work at a hospital
Speaker 1: that maybe doesn't allow this, but I know my my
Speaker 1: buddy at Circuit City down the street, their hospital has
Speaker 1: said yes for this condition. And so we all in
Speaker 1: our individual states have these little text networks of like,
Speaker 1: how the funk do we help people? How do I
Speaker 1: help this person right here? So that has already existed
Speaker 1: among our community of providers, many of us. And also
Speaker 1: don't send them to that hospital. They have a crazy
Speaker 1: doctor there that refuses blood transfusions and shames people and
Speaker 1: doesn't give them care. So that has existed to some extent.
Speaker 1: What the future is going to hold is is really
Speaker 1: we're going to see what these extremists are going to
Speaker 1: try and push. I mean, we have laws from the
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds in Texas that briscocine. That guy that looks
Speaker 1: like three children sitting on top of each other in
Speaker 1: a trench coat, he is saying that those laws still exist, right,
Speaker 1: that they are still valid laws from the eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 1: One of them, um says that if you provide an
Speaker 1: abortion to someone and they die, that it's murder. Now
Speaker 1: layer that onto. We're not allowed to provide care until
Speaker 1: you're at the brink of death. So you're about to die.
Speaker 1: But if you do die and we help you, then
Speaker 1: it's murder for the physician. Right. What's going to happen though?
Speaker 1: You should have never carried that fetus to term because
Speaker 1: we knew at week seven that it was going to be.
Speaker 1: So they're putting us in the crosshairs directly. There are
Speaker 1: laws in Texas from before row, from the eighteen hundreds
Speaker 1: that said if you help someone get an abortion, help
Speaker 1: them in any way, that you could be in prison
Speaker 1: in a state that has the death penalty. Right, so
Speaker 1: they're trying to say these things still exist. They're trying
Speaker 1: to gag us from speaking. They're trying to stop us
Speaker 1: not only from doing abortions, but from even giving evidence
Speaker 1: based medical advice. And so people need to be really
Speaker 1: cognizant of that. We need to be pushing our local hospitals.
Speaker 1: They get your tax dollars, Those county hospitals get your money.
Speaker 1: They're beholden to you. What are they doing? How are
Speaker 1: you showing up at those meetings and demanding that they
Speaker 1: care for your community in a liberatory way. Right, Let's
Speaker 1: let's let's take a break right here, because I want
Speaker 1: to talk about solutions and if there is any way
Speaker 1: to get through to some of those people that you're
Speaker 1: talking about who are taking this message and spending in
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. This is beyond the scenes.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back beyond the scenes. We are back
Speaker 1: bringing it home a great, great discussion about something that
Speaker 1: is very terrible and that we hope can get put
Speaker 1: back on track. That's that's a very interesting point, Dr Mariyetti,
Speaker 1: that these are laws. We're still trying to live by
Speaker 1: laws from the eighteen You gotta update your iPhone every
Speaker 1: four months, you gotta update all types of stuff. They update,
Speaker 1: But we don't touch the laws. Let the laws stay
Speaker 1: the same and be archaic forever. All hell the holy
Speaker 1: document right now, Renee, and we touched on this with
Speaker 1: you last time you were here, Dr Moriyetti, feel free
Speaker 1: to jump in on this, but I want to get
Speaker 1: renee east point of view on this first. Anti abortion activists,
Speaker 1: how do we get through to them? They are the loudest,
Speaker 1: They are the most vocal, they are the most demonstrative,
Speaker 1: they present themselves in this very scary sounding words or
Speaker 1: or or do you straight up lies? Is there any
Speaker 1: reasoning with those people? I mean, there's no reasoning with
Speaker 1: white supremacists. Like it's that's it. The anti abortion movement
Speaker 1: is the political organizing arm of the white supremacist, white
Speaker 1: nationalist movement. I mean they've literally had Patriot Front Proud
Speaker 1: Boys and other white supremacist white nationalists at their marches.
Speaker 1: So you can't reason with white supremacists. That's that's just
Speaker 1: not possible, not to mention, like they're just completely unhinged
Speaker 1: and like have their own sense of reality. Like you
Speaker 1: can't reason with some of the like MAGA people and
Speaker 1: the Q and on people. That's who they are. They
Speaker 1: went straight from protesting at clinics to the insurrection some
Speaker 1: of them, right, And I want to be clear that
Speaker 1: this is not just some random fringe group. Um, they're
Speaker 1: not just some like folks on Twitter like those They're
Speaker 1: real people and they're being given space to air their
Speaker 1: ridiculous conspiracy theories in the halls of our government. We
Speaker 1: did a hearing um in mid May. One of our
Speaker 1: we Testify storytellers testified about her abortions and when I
Speaker 1: was sitting in the in the in the gallery of it,
Speaker 1: and when the anti is testified, because they say a
Speaker 1: lot of really horrible things. I'm scrolling Twitter. I'm going
Speaker 1: to answer an emails. You know, all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: my ears perk up, because is this woman who runs
Speaker 1: one of the largest anti abortion organizations, the one that
Speaker 1: writes all of our laws, all the anti abortion laws.
Speaker 1: She testifin twice that she believes that the aborted fetuses
Speaker 1: are being incinerated and it is powering the street lamps
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. I wish I could tell you
Speaker 1: I was making that up. Yes, maamp post. We just
Speaker 1: got a marinate on that for a second, a moment
Speaker 1: of what the hell for what you just see it? Okay, continue,
Speaker 1: lamp posts in Washington, d C. Are powered by abortion. Now.
Speaker 1: It is extremely ridiculous. And as a voter in d C,
Speaker 1: let me tell you my bill doesn't reflect that. This
Speaker 1: is what they are testifying under oath at a hearing
Speaker 1: about a healthcare crisis in this country, and nobody batted
Speaker 1: an eye, No one said I'm sorry, what fetus flights?
Speaker 1: That is? That is no follow up, no follow up,
Speaker 1: no follow up. She said it twice. Roll the tape back.
Speaker 1: It's real. I'm not being hyperbolic at all. It's interesting
Speaker 1: this hearing called by by your colleagues. On the other side,
Speaker 1: it's about UM grandstanding, fearmongering, UM misinformation, UM falsehoods, UM intimidation.
Speaker 1: We UM shine a light on exactly what Planned Parenthood
Speaker 1: is doing with the bodies of these children that it aborts,
Speaker 1: and another abortion industry UM players all too all, too
Speaker 1: frequently they're selling these body parts for UM, for research,
Speaker 1: for examination. We have heard even that has been exposed
Speaker 1: that they are often even um burned, incinerated in order
Speaker 1: to power our street lamps. UM. That is simply inhumane.
Speaker 1: That's what's really nuts, Because in the decade that I've
Speaker 1: been in the movement, I'm constantly asked, well, can't you
Speaker 1: find common ground with the anti abortion movement. Can't you
Speaker 1: find ground on like, you know, adoption or you know,
Speaker 1: caring for babies. Yeah, I care about all of those things,
Speaker 1: but they're side they're not interested in that right. They
Speaker 1: vote against making sure people have access to food, and
Speaker 1: they literally after that hearing, all the Republicans went and
Speaker 1: voted against increasing access to baby formula. There is no
Speaker 1: actual middle ground with them and compromising with them be
Speaker 1: because the things they believe don't make sense, they're not
Speaker 1: based in reality, and they're not supporting politicians who, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, actually care about black and
Speaker 1: brown families, actually care about people living in poverty, actually
Speaker 1: care about what it looks like when people place for adoption,
Speaker 1: which for most people who are placing, is a lot
Speaker 1: of pain, and they would rather parent. If you actually
Speaker 1: look at the studies, they aren't interested in adoption or
Speaker 1: in abortion. The reason they place for adoption is because
Speaker 1: they cannot afford to parent, which is what they would want,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't fit their narrative right because they actually
Speaker 1: have to do something about systemic inequality in this country
Speaker 1: and they don't want to. Dr Moyetti, how how do
Speaker 1: you or how have you given up on trying to
Speaker 1: reason with with with baby with baby feet? Is electricity?
Speaker 1: Data's electricity? Yeah? I Um. It turns out that they
Speaker 1: don't care about science, they don't care about evidence, and
Speaker 1: um I yeah, I don't take I don't take interviews
Speaker 1: where anti abortion extremists will be a counter to my
Speaker 1: professional views and my expertise because they're literally talking about
Speaker 1: fetus lights. And I'm talking about public health facts, research data, right,
Speaker 1: and exactly like Renee said, like I'm talking about human rights,
Speaker 1: there's not a compromise on is white supremacy? Okay, where's
Speaker 1: the middle ground? How much supreme can we be? Like
Speaker 1: there's it's many things are not black and white, but
Speaker 1: like white supremacy is bad. That is I mean very
Speaker 1: clearly black and white, very clear, very clearly, literally quite literally, Renee,
Speaker 1: you run. We testify Now, this is an organization that
Speaker 1: allows people who have had abortions to share their stories,
Speaker 1: to tell their stories. Why is it important for people
Speaker 1: to hear those stories? Especially now? Like you said, we
Speaker 1: testify as an organization that's dedicated to the leadership and
Speaker 1: representation of people who have abortions. UM. I operate under
Speaker 1: a really simple belief that people who have abortions are
Speaker 1: our future and we deserve to be in leadership in
Speaker 1: this movement and this moment and throughout history. People have
Speaker 1: been having abortions for thousands of years, and usually it
Speaker 1: was just kind of we talked about it with each other. Hey, God,
Speaker 1: drank this tea. Yep, the witch down the street, she's
Speaker 1: got it. And it was just it was just normal, right.
Speaker 1: It was part of all of our reproductive decision making.
Speaker 1: But when it was criminalized in the eighteen hundreds, it
Speaker 1: was forced as a secret. And then in the thirties, forties, fifties,
Speaker 1: a lot of times the only time you heard abortion
Speaker 1: stories were after people were trying to criminalize a provider.
Speaker 1: So police were compelling people to share their abortion stories.
Speaker 1: So we weren't sharing our stories on our own terms,
Speaker 1: and we were afraid that our stories could incriminate us
Speaker 1: or the people who provided our care. In the last
Speaker 1: like fifteen years, we've really pushed back on the stigma
Speaker 1: that has told us that we should just shut up
Speaker 1: are about our abortions, go get it, and don't talk
Speaker 1: about it, don't tell anyone about it. And so that
Speaker 1: ended up with people like me. When I had my
Speaker 1: abortion at nineteen, I didn't know anyone who had an abortion.
Speaker 1: I knew one cousin and that's oh and the Robbert
Speaker 1: lokimh yeah, um that bit like I knew that, and
Speaker 1: so but I still felt really isolated. I started sharing
Speaker 1: my stories so that other people would feel like they
Speaker 1: weren't alone, and to get everyone to realize that every
Speaker 1: one loves someone who's had an abortion, and I would
Speaker 1: have people come up to me and tell me, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had an abortion too. I didn't know anyone else
Speaker 1: who had an abortion, and it started to be this
Speaker 1: ground swell of us talking about it. Then I started
Speaker 1: to realize how much I still, even as doing this work,
Speaker 1: didn't talk about it in my own family. To the
Speaker 1: point that I've been doing this work for four years
Speaker 1: and my mother had not even told me that she'd
Speaker 1: had an abortion before she had me. And so I
Speaker 1: am here because my mother was able to decide if
Speaker 1: one and how to grow her family because she had
Speaker 1: an abortion. And so it really has gotten me thinking,
Speaker 1: what does it look like for us to create a
Speaker 1: space where people have abortions feel supported, to be able
Speaker 1: to talk about it over the dinner table with our
Speaker 1: loved ones as we're going through it, and of course, yes,
Speaker 1: at rally's and the halls of Congress, let's talk about
Speaker 1: this and also talk about all the things that are
Speaker 1: sticking ties that we don't talk about in our families,
Speaker 1: whether it is mental health stigma, or you know, postpartum
Speaker 1: depression or menopause or anything else that really infertility for
Speaker 1: all of us no matter your gender identity, right, like,
Speaker 1: let's talk about all of the things that come with
Speaker 1: our reproductive health, our family building. Let's not make it
Speaker 1: a secret, and let's show up with love and support.
Speaker 1: And so what really felt important to me also if
Speaker 1: we testifies work, is that the majority of our abortion
Speaker 1: storytellers of them are people of color. That is intentional
Speaker 1: because the majority of people who have abortions are people
Speaker 1: of color, almost two thirds. So what we wanted to
Speaker 1: do was make sure that the stories that you hear
Speaker 1: are reflective of who actually has and has abortions, and
Speaker 1: that those folks who are having abortions today see someone
Speaker 1: who looks like them, standing tall, talking about their experience
Speaker 1: and receiving nothing but love and support, knowing that even
Speaker 1: though this moment is really really scary and chaotic, that
Speaker 1: their voice deserves to be heard, that their deserved, that
Speaker 1: their decision deserves to be loved and supported, and that
Speaker 1: there are people just like them who've had abortions too.
Speaker 1: Where do we go from? So at the end of
Speaker 1: the show that this this is this part of podcast
Speaker 1: or now where I ask you how do we solve this?
Speaker 1: And then and then one of us says vote yes, vote, vote,
Speaker 1: and that's just the end of the podcast. But let's
Speaker 1: be real. Is voting effective? Is that going to be
Speaker 1: Does that have the efficacy needed to solve this problem?
Speaker 1: Or there are other aspects in Dr Mayetta feel free
Speaker 1: to chime in on this as well, like where do
Speaker 1: we go from here on this? Who can we support?
Speaker 1: Do we do? I've been voting. I voted, I voted,
Speaker 1: vote harder, I voted, I pressed it really hard, and
Speaker 1: I voted get a fake ID and get you on,
Speaker 1: get on seven different voting rules. They won't catch you
Speaker 1: and sing to not suggest an Iranian abortion provider is
Speaker 1: fake voting in Texas. Peace, I'm already on a cross.
Speaker 1: I'm from Chicago. We vote early and often. Um, I
Speaker 1: think this is this is really important, right because I've
Speaker 1: been talking about this a lot where I've said that
Speaker 1: voting can't be the only solution. Okay, we've been voting.
Speaker 1: In fact, the candidate who supported not only making abortion
Speaker 1: more accessible, but also overturning the racist, discriminatory High Amendment
Speaker 1: High Amendment, which bars medicaid from coming and covering abortion care.
Speaker 1: She won the presidential election in but because our system
Speaker 1: is jerrymandered, and so fucked she didn't. And so this
Speaker 1: idea that like voting is the only way out of
Speaker 1: this is not correct. Voting is important and I think
Speaker 1: everyone should be out there to go vote. I vote.
Speaker 1: I love it. It's actually really fun. Wor get out
Speaker 1: my ballot in DC right now. Um, it is a
Speaker 1: harm reduction tool because if the only solution to this
Speaker 1: crisis right now is to go vote in November, what
Speaker 1: are you saying to every single person who needs an
Speaker 1: abortion before that? What are you saying to the clinics
Speaker 1: that are going to have to close between the time
Speaker 1: the decision has come down to when the election happens.
Speaker 1: But also it's actually a couple of months after that
Speaker 1: because you have to get the new Congress, Horden. But
Speaker 1: then also you have to actually we negotiate a bill
Speaker 1: and vote on it. So actually, what you're asking people
Speaker 1: by saying, oh, voting will just solve this, you're saying, cool,
Speaker 1: wait and take a chance that hopefully in a year
Speaker 1: we will have the margins to be able to do this.
Speaker 1: Because I was told that if we won the Senate,
Speaker 1: they would protect abortion, and that is not what's happening
Speaker 1: right now because of Democrats who are anti abortion, like
Speaker 1: Joe Mansion or Kirsten Cinema who won't get rid of
Speaker 1: the filipbuster right, So it can't be the only solution.
Speaker 1: We need actual, real ideas from the federal government, from
Speaker 1: the President to show up and protect abortion right here
Speaker 1: and right now, and I'm seeing a bit of a
Speaker 1: lackluster on those ideas. I'm happy to meet with the
Speaker 1: President whatever he wants to, to share all of my
Speaker 1: ideas of what he can federalize. I mean, I'd honestly
Speaker 1: say that I wish that the President Biden would take
Speaker 1: a playbook out of Trump Trump's and just do executive
Speaker 1: orders for whatever, because we thought half the ship Trump
Speaker 1: was doing wouldn't actually stick, and it did, And so
Speaker 1: why are we not just saying let's try it all?
Speaker 1: Because this is an emergency, this is a public health emergency.
Speaker 1: We cannot leave clinics to close because we're waiting on
Speaker 1: vote returns to come back. I mean, that's exactly what
Speaker 1: we have been asking for in Texas and September. What
Speaker 1: can the president do? Write an executive order right now?
Speaker 1: The last president put children in detention centers, stripped them
Speaker 1: from their parents through executive order we can't make healthcare
Speaker 1: available through executive order and figure it out later. Why
Speaker 1: why can't we? I'm sorry, I cannot believe that. It's
Speaker 1: like the man who got all the most pro life
Speaker 1: president in history by the anti abortion movement put a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of babies in in cages, and like was
Speaker 1: allowed to do that, And yet we cannot figure out
Speaker 1: how to make healthcare more accessible, and we're being asked
Speaker 1: to use a system that is fundamentally broken. They did
Speaker 1: not fix voting rights. They promised us if they had
Speaker 1: the White House, Senate and Congress that they would do that, right.
Speaker 1: They didn't, And so you're asking us to rely on
Speaker 1: a broken tool that is impossible. We've been voting at
Speaker 1: some point. We need you to do your fucking jobs. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I will vote in November, and I swear to God
Speaker 1: if anybody comes to me and says that I'm adding
Speaker 1: to vote or suppression, which I am not. Brian Kemp, Okay,
Speaker 1: I am saying I want you to vote, and I
Speaker 1: need you to do something else in the meantime. Well,
Speaker 1: how are we allowed to say bitch on this podcast?
Speaker 1: Oh we've been talking this whole episode. Can I say
Speaker 1: one thing? Before we go, Just to everyone who's listening,
Speaker 1: we need you so bad right now. We need you
Speaker 1: donating to your local abortion funds. We need you donating
Speaker 1: to keep our clinics dot org. We need you sharing
Speaker 1: your abortion stories. We need you knowing what the self
Speaker 1: managed abortion protocol is. It's either one metho pristone pill
Speaker 1: and four miles aposto pills twenty four hours later, or
Speaker 1: a series of twelve miles aposto pills every three hours,
Speaker 1: four of them eat right, It's real simple. Know this information.
Speaker 1: Know how to get an abortion where your nearest clinic is.
Speaker 1: Because even if you think it's not something you'll need,
Speaker 1: someone you love will need it. Be ready to show
Speaker 1: up with them with love and support, and be ready
Speaker 1: to listen to their abortion stories, because honestly, this is
Speaker 1: all we've got in this moment. It's really scary, and
Speaker 1: we need everyone to take this so seriously and we
Speaker 1: need it to get involved and yes, go vote. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I'll say, physicians, you're not agents of the state.
Speaker 1: We are going to be called on to be law
Speaker 1: enforcement and that is not your duty. Your duty is
Speaker 1: to care for your community. I think that's as good
Speaker 1: a place to end it so we can all three
Speaker 1: of us get our blood pressure down just a bit.
Speaker 1: I will say that this has been a great discussion.
Speaker 1: It has been enriching discussion. I hope to never talk
Speaker 1: to either of you again on this issue. That is
Speaker 1: my hope. Puppies for this world. You promised me puppies,
Speaker 1: puppies when you come back on the show. Dr Morieti,
Speaker 1: Renee Bracy Sherman, thank you both for going beyond the
Speaker 1: scenes with me this week. Thank you for having and
Speaker 1: I want that night. That's a nice shirt. Also, Renee,
Speaker 1: I want one of those extra large I can get one,
Speaker 1: we gotta That's a wrap on season. Want to Beyond
Speaker 1: the Scene. Stay tuned over the next few weeks. I'll
Speaker 1: be recapping some of my favorite moments over the past year.
Speaker 1: We're going beyond the scenes and beyond the scene. We're
Speaker 1: gonna beyond, double beyond. New episodes start back up in
Speaker 1: August and they will always be available wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts.