1 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is a special bonus episode 2 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: of Betrayal. Our team loves to dive into the science 3 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: and psychology behind betrayal and the trauma it can cause. 4 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: We often talk about the power of storytelling as a 5 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: tool for healing, so we got curious about how the 6 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,279 Speaker 1: science of storytelling really functions in trauma recovery. That's how 7 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: we found applied neuroscientist and clinical psychologist Doctor Kate Truett. 8 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: An applied neuroscientist straddles the line between what's going on 9 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: in the labs, what I call the ivory tower of 10 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 2: the educational space, and the clinical realm. I view myself 11 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: as a translator of the brain to best help people 12 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: connect with what's happening in their mind body system, I 13 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 2: specifically focus on the brain areas tied into both trauma 14 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: and empowerment. 15 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: Doctor Truett also has her own clinical practice in Los 16 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: Angeles where she sees clients who've experienced trauma. 17 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: The true line, though, and what really really lights me up, 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: is helping people disseminate the impact of trauma and better 19 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 2: understand the weird, painful experiences that happen in our mind 20 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: body system when we've been deeply harmed. 21 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: She's very open about her own lived experiences and how 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: they impact her work. 23 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: I'm also a survivor. I am a survivor of traumatic grief. 24 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: I was widowed a week before my wedding, and I'm 25 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: harnessing my own vulnerability and knowledge of neuroscience to shine 26 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: the light on how change and healing is possible. 27 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: I wanted to start by asking doctor Truett what trauma 28 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: really is in a clinical sense, For instance, what makes 29 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: something a traumatic experience to our brains. 30 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: When I look at trauma through the lens of neurobiology, 31 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 2: I like to distill it down to the concept of threat, 32 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: safety or a lack of safety. As we can experience 33 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 2: something that feels threatening, such as getting on a roller 34 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: coaster and plumbinating out the earth at a very very 35 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: high rate of speed, but also knowing that supposedly, if 36 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: the engineers did their job, we're okay, so therefore we're safe. 37 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: If that's the case, and we like roller coasters, then 38 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: it's not traumatic. On the other hand, somebody who gets 39 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 2: into the same roller coaster, maybe totally safe, hates roller coasters, 40 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: but is forced to get on that roller coaster and 41 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: ride the roller coaster that could be very traumatic because 42 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: there's no choice. So threat in of itself is a 43 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: critical threall line of what makes something traumatic could be 44 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: threat to life or perceived threat to belonging, loveability, threat 45 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: to one's ability to make choice in their life, to 46 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: have agency, or threat to the baseline safety. 47 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: There's one part of our brain responsible for processing safety. 48 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: It's the amygdalah. Doctor Truett actually personifies the amygdalah. She 49 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: affectionately calls her Amy by making the amygdala into a 50 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: character that can help us see its reaction as separate 51 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: from who we fundamentally are. 52 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: Our little friend Amy, the amygdala who that's what I 53 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: do call her Amy, the amigdala like the amygdala is 54 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: a part of our brain whose primary job is to 55 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: keep us alive, and when we feel threatened, she's assessing 56 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: in our brain these core values of in my safe, 57 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: in my lovable? Or do I belong? And can I 58 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: create changer I call be successful in my life? And 59 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: if there's a direct threat to any of those values, 60 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: then there's the possibility of something being encoded in our 61 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: brain as traumatic. 62 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: Sometimes the amygdala struggles to determine the size of a 63 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: risk and it can be activated in all kinds of situations. 64 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: Now there's this concept in society on social media. In 65 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: the clinical realm of big T versus small T trauma, 66 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 2: big T trauma being something that we just lived through 67 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: here in Los Angeles, these fires, or any natural disaster, 68 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 2: or a direct assault, or something that is very clear 69 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: that if you told another humanness happened societally, that other 70 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 2: person would say, yeah, that's definitely traumatic. Small T trauma 71 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 2: are often just as impactful, but they're missed in the 72 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: trauma dialogue and they create ongoing traumatic stress as well 73 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: in the system. But there's things that directly threatn those 74 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 2: our values in more subtle ways, such as course of control, 75 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: feeling assaulted or humiliated or intimidated all of the time, 76 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: in ways that don't leave an actual mark, perhaps on 77 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: the body, those small T traumas can be just as 78 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: impactful on how the mind body system is experiencing and 79 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: processing data, whether it be a big tea or small 80 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: T trauma. When those experiences happen, it fundamentally changes the 81 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 2: way our brain and our body are making sense of 82 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: the world around us. 83 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: What the amygdala considers to be a threat changes all 84 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: the time based on the things we experience. 85 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: One of my favorite examples of this is if we 86 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: go back to February of twenty twenty, if somebody sneezed, 87 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: then it may have been a simple kazoothe bless you, 88 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: not an entire fearful mind body reaction to, oh, my gosh, 89 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,159 Speaker 2: is that person sick with a virus that could kill us? 90 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: Forward to August twenty twenty, a sneeze for many people 91 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: had a very different connotation. That's a type of neuroplasticity 92 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: known as stress and du structural plasticity. Now sitting here 93 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five, a sneeze for many people, once again, 94 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: it's just a sneeze. That's how our brain is supposed 95 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: to respond to threats and then also unlearn threats when 96 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 2: it's no longer actually threatening to us. 97 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: Whether we're aware of it or not, our amygdala is 98 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: always reacting to experiences. Doctor Truett says that traumas that 99 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 1: occur in early childhood, even ones we're too young to remember, 100 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: can still have a strong impact on the amygdala sense 101 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: of safety. 102 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: When we're living in a state where there is constant 103 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: internalization of fear, of trauma where our brain has learned 104 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: and started to design itself around traumatic experiences, even if 105 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: the trauma is no longer happening. The traumatic event might 106 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: have been for two years during one's childhood, but if 107 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: those two years were impactful enough, the brain is still 108 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: going to be harnessing and utilizing the neural pathways set 109 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: down during those childhood years. 110 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: Regardless of the degrees of trauma we experience, it always 111 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: takes a toll. Trauma exists on a spectrum, and so 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: do the effects. 113 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: It's a rewiring of our mind body system into feeling 114 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: chronically unsafe. Oftentimes too though it becomes an internalization. It 115 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: changes how we experience ourselves in the world. We start 116 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: having negative viewpoints on our capacity, our lovability. We start 117 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: feeling as though there's something wrong with us, we're shameful, 118 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 2: or that we're chronic failure. We can't make change in 119 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: our world. Our body may be rewired into a state 120 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: of chronic stress or vigilance, meaning that all of a sudden, 121 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: our gastrointestinal system simply stops functioning the way used to, 122 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: which is a part of a trauma response. Or we 123 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: can't sleep very well or feel rested when we're sleeping. 124 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: So the impact of whether it be big TI or SMALLTI, 125 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 2: trauma happens in many, many layers across the course of 126 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: our mind body functioning. 127 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: It's fascinating to hear her unpack how one event in 128 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: our lives can impact our brain wiring and how it 129 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: can also put our body in trauma mode. So without 130 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: proper intervention, we could stay in that state for the 131 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: rest of our lives. It can keep us from achieving 132 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: our goals or experiencing joy. 133 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: The really good news about our brains, it's changeable, it's plastic. 134 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 2: That's where the buzzy word neuroplasticity comes from. Because of neuroplasticity, 135 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: we can help the brain carve new neural pathways and 136 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: strengthen the ones that we want, while either desensitizing the 137 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: ones that we don't want, or even helping the brain 138 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: shift through and release the ones that are anchored in 139 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: by trauma and creating space for new learnings going forward, 140 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: a new way of being in the world. And we 141 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: can play a very active role in that when we 142 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: know how. 143 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: And a lot of doctor Truett's work is teaching people 144 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 1: how after we have a traumatic experience, our brain starts 145 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: to develop a story, a narrative to explain what happened 146 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: and how it happened. We can become very attached to 147 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: that story. For example, if your partner has an affair, 148 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: your brain's initial story might be I'm not good enough, 149 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: but here's the thing. Oftentimes, our brain writes this story 150 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: while we're in trauma mode, and the first draft is 151 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: full of self blame. 152 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 2: What that looks like at a neurobiological level is when 153 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: our little friend amy the amygdala, when she starts looking 154 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 2: at the world through a lens of threat, she disrupts 155 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: the story making parts of our brain, such as our 156 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: hippocam This what she focuses on memory consolidation, our thinking brain, 157 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: which is our prefrontal cortex, which helps us pay attention 158 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: to things and make decisions. The amygdala changes the capacity 159 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 2: of those other parts of our brain to function in 160 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 2: a balanced, resilient manner, and instead starts pulling all of 161 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: our other brain parts into a direction of survival mode, 162 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 2: threat based looking at the world through those trauma glasses. 163 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: And when the brain is stuck in that survival mode 164 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: seeing through trauma glasses, this is what it can feel like. 165 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: The world is scary, or it could be I'm a 166 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: bad person, I make bad things happen. It could be 167 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: I am not deserving of love. Whatever the brain has 168 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: learned is the thing tied into what is painful, scarier heard, 169 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: and the amygdala reinforces those types of stories over and 170 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 2: over and over again. The more those stories get to 171 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: exist within our neurobiology, the stronger they become, which means 172 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 2: they can start to feel like truth. So the impact 173 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: is pretty profound, and the stories are still going to 174 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 2: be happening. It's just that the stories are being written 175 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: by a very unkind narrator. 176 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 1: Part of doctor Truet's approach is understanding the amigdala's response 177 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: and even empathizing with it, because its biological intention is 178 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: to keep us safe. 179 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: That's the irony about amy the amygdala. She can be 180 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: very disruptive and how she guides our brain in order 181 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: to keep us alive, but fundamentally she does really have 182 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: our back, and that's the opportunity in the neurobiological healing 183 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: work and integrating that with meaning making and simply storytelling. 184 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: We are wired to make stories, but we're also allowed 185 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: to revise the story our brain rights. 186 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: There's a lot of very effective different types of intervention 187 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: for trauma because as humans were narrative creatures, and until 188 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 2: we can support the system changing the narrative the meaning 189 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 2: making of what has happened, the system can continue to 190 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: be paralyzed or run by the pain of the past. 191 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: And we're always going to be leaning into the meaning making, 192 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: which is fundamentally the story that our brain has around 193 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: what happened and identifying new opportunities for finding escape from 194 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: what feels inescapable. 195 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: After the break. Doctor Truett delves into specifics about storytelling 196 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: as a tool for trauma recovery. We're talking with doctor K. Truett, 197 00:12:54,200 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: who's an applied neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and educator. So it 198 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: says that when it comes to identifying the stories your 199 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: brain has written about trauma, you can take the first 200 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: step on your own. 201 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 2: Journaling is proven scientifically to be an incredible way to 202 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: help integrate our story. Putting something on paper is a 203 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: way of honoring your own story and your own truth. 204 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: Sharing our journaling. Sharing our story in a healthy way 205 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 2: also can be incredibly healing. It can also be very 206 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: vulnerable to journal We can be tapping into sensory data 207 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: that's tied into our traumatic experiences. Sharing our story can 208 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: be incredibly vulnerable, and our migdalah may have fears around 209 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: being rejected or feeling even more isolated after sharing. 210 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: But working through that fear and vulnerability is part of 211 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: the process. Doctor Truett helps her clients develop tools for 212 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: navigating the difficult feelings that come up when they're telling 213 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: their story. 214 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: The main focus that I always recommend to my client's friends, colleagues, 215 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: and when we're doing this type of work independently is 216 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: to also have a toolkit of self regulation tools next 217 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: to us in case we tap into something that carries 218 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: a lot of emotional weight as we're journaling. And so 219 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: if we have our self regulation tools on hand as 220 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: we're journaling or writing or sharing our story, we can 221 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: actually proactively heal any of those reactive responses that are 222 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: coming up. And one of my favorite tools for this 223 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: is an exercise I created a long time ago called 224 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: creating Personal Resilience for the Amygdala CPR for the amygdala. 225 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: As we're doing our narrative work, as we're journaling, if 226 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: we're noticing our amygdalah starting to get reactive, it's just 227 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: time to push pause, and take a breath, and utilize 228 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: something known as mindful touch in order to downregulate the brain. 229 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: Mindful touch is a meditation practice of clearing your mind, 230 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: bringing your awareness to your body, and gently running your 231 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: hands together or running your hands over your arms like 232 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: a hug. It's a way to ground yourself and help 233 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: calm down your amygdala. It seems simple, but this practice 234 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,479 Speaker 1: can build a sense of safety around traumatic memories. 235 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: It's a way of saying this happened, rather than holding 236 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: it inside, of acknowledging the pains of the past and 237 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: starting to create a new way forward, imagining different outcomes, 238 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: creating a way that you would like to respond or 239 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 2: react to something. We can help the system find ways 240 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: to renarrate and free our brain of being stuck locked 241 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: into what happened and know that, hey, we're not there anymore. 242 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: Another important step in this process is detaching from labels. 243 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: A tool er exercise I do with my clients quite 244 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: a bet is to have them notice the difference between 245 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 2: the statement I anxious person versus I am experiencing anxiety. 246 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: As humans, we tend to label ourselves, and when we 247 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: give ourselves big emotional labels, it's hard for our mind 248 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: and our body system to dig ourselves out of that label. 249 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 2: I am bad, I am depressed, I am unlovable, I 250 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 2: am unworthy, I am powerless. Our brain buys into that 251 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: as a self identifying component of self, as opposed to 252 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: saying I'm feeling powerless in this moment, which then creates 253 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 2: space for the brain and the body to go, Oh, 254 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 2: I can do something to feel more powerful right now. 255 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 2: What might that be? Oh? I can control my breath. Oh, 256 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: I have control over that? Or I am experiencing anxiety, 257 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 2: which creates the opportunity to zoom out a little bit 258 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: and say why am I feeling anxious, which immediately starts 259 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: the positive neuroplastic experience of being curious, which gives us 260 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 2: dope mean and opens at our visual sphere both internally 261 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: and externally to seeing a larger picture around us. And 262 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 2: the value in that is there's space for curiosity and 263 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: even possibly beginning to move into a state of self 264 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: compassion and deeper self awareness and self acceptance, which fundamentally 265 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: is a critical part of healing through trauma. 266 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: Certain labels have more power than others, like the label 267 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: a victim. It's a word that comes up a lot 268 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: in our interviews. It's a polarizing and emotionally charged label. 269 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: Some people adopt it, others reject it. 270 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 2: A common label that I hear is the idea of 271 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: I am a victim or the polarizing opposite, I'm not 272 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 2: a victim, And I can see a lot of damage 273 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 2: potentially being done on either side of the aisle. If 274 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: we are a victim and that is the label that 275 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: we're putting on our mind body system, it can feel 276 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: what we call in psychological terms very much having an 277 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: external lucus of control. Things happen to me. I am 278 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: powerless and I cannot create change in my world. And 279 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: for the Imigdella's core values, you can possibly tune in 280 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 2: there that Amy's going to hate that, and when she 281 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 2: really feels powerless or weak, she's going to create a 282 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: way of interacting with that statement for the good, the bad, 283 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: or the ugly, but however it shows up for her 284 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 2: to keep us safe, oftentimes I can mean isolating or 285 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 2: creating ways of being in interpersonal relationships that are not 286 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 2: preferable or are unhealthy for us. The flip side of 287 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 2: I am not a victim again, great, if you're not 288 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 2: a victim, that's fine, but if that's a trauma reaction, 289 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: it can bypass the reality of things happen out of control, scary, difficult, 290 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: painful things did happen and the mind body system wasn't 291 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: in control in those moments, and so the label of 292 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 2: victim and of itself becomes self identifying, and either side 293 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 2: of the aisle, I don't believe it's supportive or helpful 294 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: for my clients or anybody in the world to have 295 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,560 Speaker 2: an I AM statement in one direction or the other. 296 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: When we look at the term of victim, it means 297 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 2: something has happened that was really bad, and it's a concept, 298 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 2: it's not a label. It's not a self identification. 299 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: Still, having a word for that experience and the changes 300 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: it caused can be a way to acknowledge that it happened. 301 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: In the field of survivalship, when working with trauma survivors, 302 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 2: we've taken victim off the table because when we're a survivor, 303 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 2: it's giving an acknowledgment to that something did happen. So, yes, 304 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 2: there was a moment where I was a victim of 305 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 2: something really bad happening, and I'm standing here right now. 306 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: I made it through I have survived, and therefore there's 307 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: space to look at what happened and to build through 308 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 2: survivalship into resilience and empowerment. 309 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: A major barrier to building resilience and empowerment is shame. 310 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: Doctor Truett explains where shame comes from and why we 311 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: hold onto it so tightly. 312 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: Ah Shame, shame, shame, shame. Our brain can be a 313 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 2: shame drunkie, and shame is fundamentally a feeling of being 314 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 2: flooded with a lack of self worth, feeling completely and 315 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: utterly like somebody is bad, they are broken at their core, 316 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 2: and they are bad. And the interesting thing about shame 317 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 2: is our little friend Amy theam Magdalah loves it is 318 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: when she's feeling shamed, She's like, there is something clearly 319 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: not okay here, and she gets to make up even 320 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,239 Speaker 2: more stories about how we are bad, believing that she's 321 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 2: keeping us safe. She really does have her best interests 322 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: at hearts, but feeling shame or feeling bad or broken, 323 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 2: for Amy the Amgdalah actually gives her power. It helps 324 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: her feel like she has agency and choice. I know 325 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: it's weird, and it's real. 326 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: Shame is baked into our brain's normal functioning, and it's 327 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: something we have to learn to work with. 328 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: The problem is hindsight's twenty twenty, and so we can 329 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 2: look back and see every flag that was messed and 330 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: hold ourselves accountable for it. And when I say hold 331 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 2: ourselves accountable for it, of course it's not us. It's 332 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 2: our little friend Amy the and Magdala spinning up a 333 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 2: narrative of saying, see you miss that. That's your fault. 334 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: That's your fault. That's your fault. That's your fault. You 335 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: miss that too, aren't you so bad? How do you 336 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: fail on that account? What's wrong with you? So on 337 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: and so forth again, all as a way to create 338 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: internally a sense of safety, because when we're so flagellating, 339 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: when we're beating ourselves up and holding ourselves responsible for 340 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 2: things that we could not control, did not know about, 341 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: did not see are a Megdala is saying remember it, 342 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 2: remember it, because you don't want this to happen again. 343 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 2: And so this is her way of being a LUCKI Loo. 344 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: When there's a car accident on the freeway, people slow down, yes, 345 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 2: perhaps for the safety of the passengers in the car accident, 346 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: but also people look because the brain's going, I need 347 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: to learn something over there. Our megdala's version of doing 348 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: that with shame and trauma is to do a hindsight 349 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 2: review and have twenty twenty vision about every single thing 350 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: we missed and hold us accountable for it so we 351 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,920 Speaker 2: don't get into danger in the future. 352 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: As we often hear on our show, healing from trauma 353 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: isn't linear, and healing doesn't always bring back the person 354 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: you were before. That's one of the hardest parts. So 355 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 1: we asked doctor Truett what healing looks like when she's 356 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: working with clients. 357 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 2: One of the interesting things that happens with my clients 358 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: when we not everybody, but a lot of them when 359 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: we begin the work is ask them what is their goal, 360 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 2: and they say, I just want to be happy. The 361 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 2: problem is our brain is not designed to be happy 362 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: all the time. In fact, our brain would burn out 363 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 2: neurochemically if we were. Our brain and our body are 364 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: designed to flow an EBB and navigate through all types 365 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: of feelings and emotions on a daily basis. The good, 366 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 2: the bad, the beautiful and the ugly, the calm and 367 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: the neutral, and all of those feelings become flags for 368 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 2: helping us better understand what's happening in the world around us. 369 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: The beautiful part of being in the work and doing 370 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: the work is that those red flag moments no longer 371 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 2: spiral us into shame. If shame comes up and go oh, 372 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 2: that's also an interesting data point, is a part of 373 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,239 Speaker 2: me now feeling bad again? What's happening? And we can 374 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: get curious or in the aftermath of a red flag moment, 375 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: if we've really leaned into nuroplasticity and helped our system 376 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: come home to self with loving care, we can give 377 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 2: ourselves an internal hug or even an external hug, and 378 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: wrap our arms around ourselves and go, they're there, girl, 379 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 2: It's okay, what's going on and have that compassionate, loving 380 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: response that for so many of us we may never 381 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: have ever had to begin with. 382 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: Instead of making happiness a marker of healing, a more 383 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: realistic approach is to build self compassion. 384 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: Self compassion is a skill. We're not born to be 385 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: compassionate towards ourselves. We are born to be compassionate towards 386 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 2: other beings, animals, living things, even inanimate objects, because we 387 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 2: need other entities for survival. But frankly, to survive we 388 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 2: don't have to be nice to ourselves. So that's a 389 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: skill that we get to learn, and that's a really 390 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: critical part of the trauma healing journey, is learning how 391 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: to hold the space for ourselves that we neurobiologically freely 392 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: give to everybody else. 393 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: This is the work she's actively doing with her clients. 394 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: But doctor Truett acknowledges that therapy isn't always accessible. That's 395 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: why she's committed to online education and sharing free resources. 396 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 2: So therapy is a privilege, and I'm very aware that 397 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: not everybody has access to it. I also know that 398 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: mental health and wellness is a human right, so dedicated 399 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: an extensive amount of time to providing resources and tools 400 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: that are neurobiologically based to help people heal the experiences 401 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 2: of their past, finding ways to show up in the 402 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: present moment and do proactive healing in the here and 403 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,360 Speaker 2: now while building the neural pathways they want for their future, 404 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: as we honestly can partner with our own brains to 405 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 2: create incredible change. And on our YouTube channel, it's doctor 406 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 2: k Truet, which is a Google Health channel. It's approved 407 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: by ANIH and IMH as well as the World Health 408 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: Organization as an educational resource. We provide therapeutic tools, guides, 409 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 2: information so as, guided meditations, and all sorts of ways 410 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 2: to support people in safely moving into their own healing 411 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: journey along those same lines. I have two books that 412 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: I've written. The first one is called Healing in Your Hands, 413 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: which the title leans into exactly everything we're talking about. 414 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: It's a full healing experience for going on a guided 415 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: relationship with oneself and navigating how our life experiences have 416 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: shifted and changed the way we experience the world around us, 417 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: while providing actionable tools and resources for curating and creating change. 418 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: Her most recent book is a memoir where she uses 419 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 1: her own story as a lesson in trauma recovery. 420 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: My memoir, which is called Keep Breathing, really goes into 421 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: a deep dive and I use myself as a case study, 422 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 2: which was quite terrifying, to be honest, to unpack the 423 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: complexities of having PTSD. 424 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: In writing her memoir, she experienced firsthand how healing it 425 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: can be to tell your story, and it's a story 426 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: she hopes other people can learn from. 427 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 2: It was really one of the hardest choices I've made 428 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: in my life to put that book into the world. 429 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 2: Partially because as psychologists there's an old idea that we're 430 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: supposed to be blank slates. That fundamentally, what I realize 431 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: is there's a lot of people who are just like me, 432 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: who are struggling, who could possibly benefit from the information. 433 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 2: And it was so healing to even write my own story. 434 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 2: It took five years and to have the space to 435 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: share my story and to have my story be held 436 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: by others and reflected. So it's an incredible, incredible, powerful 437 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: testimony to the power of narrative work and how in 438 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 2: our story is held by others that and of itself 439 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: is really really healing. 440 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, and a special thanks to doctor 441 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: Kate Truett for sharing her expertise with us. In the 442 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: spirit of storytelling for trauma healing, We're going to spend 443 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: the next two weeks sharing listener essay submissions. The theme 444 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: was Resilience in Recovery after a devastating betrayal. We received 445 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: so many incredible submissions and we're excited to share them 446 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: with you, So stay tuned and we'll be back next week. 447 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 448 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: team or want to tell us your betrayal story email 449 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal pod 450 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One 451 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 452 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 453 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 454 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production 455 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 456 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 457 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 458 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced 459 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden. 460 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio 461 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,719 Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Matt del Vecchio, Additional editing support 462 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: from Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music 463 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: library provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, 464 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 465 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: your podcasts.