Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress high
Speaker 1: wib Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my
Speaker 1: favorite co stars ever, actor, producer, director, and host, Michael Uri,
Speaker 1: who you know from bringing stories to life on screen,
Speaker 1: on stage, and behind the scenes. He was everybody's favorite
Speaker 1: Mark Saint James on ABC's Ugly Betty. He's been on
Speaker 1: Modern Family, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Younger, Workaholics,
Speaker 1: Partners with Me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ever, Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's
Speaker 1: hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics Choice Award.
Speaker 1: He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of
Speaker 1: us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school
Speaker 1: humor back not only to the screen but to the
Speaker 1: airwaves with his Ugly Betty co star Becky Newton and
Speaker 1: their Rewatch podcast. Still Ugly and one of my very
Speaker 1: favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare
Speaker 1: time JK. He has none is He is the co
Speaker 1: founder of New York City's Pride Plays, which celebrate and
Speaker 1: elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking
Speaker 1: the Pride Plays to Washington, d C. For World Pride,
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation,
Speaker 1: lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to
Speaker 1: keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with
Speaker 1: Michael Ary.
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember, is that right? We were
Speaker 2: the first gay kiss.
Speaker 1: On CBS and it was a peck.
Speaker 2: Just pack.
Speaker 1: It was a little smitchie. It's a little very cute.
Speaker 2: So cute.
Speaker 1: But what I was remembering is you never tell people
Speaker 1: you made out Superman.
Speaker 2: We didn't really make up, but yes, I do. OK.
Speaker 2: The answer is one yes too. We didn't really make out.
Speaker 2: It was always just a peck and it was never
Speaker 2: very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about
Speaker 2: as I walked over today was you and he had
Speaker 2: a sexy kiss.
Speaker 1: That's right? That like the David's nightmare?
Speaker 2: Yeah it was?
Speaker 1: Was it your nightmare?
Speaker 2: Was it a nightmare? Like? Just oh yeah? It was
Speaker 2: like a test. It was like let's see if I
Speaker 2: feel anything. Oh yeah, I don't feel anything. Let me
Speaker 2: just try one more time and they kiss again. It
Speaker 2: was one of those was it?
Speaker 1: I thought it was like a hallucination.
Speaker 2: Maybe that was it? Now that you're saying that anyway, anyway,
Speaker 2: I remember when did we watch our show? Also, that's
Speaker 2: our that's our next podcast. But that's what I like.
Speaker 2: I remember, Oh yeah, they let that. They let the
Speaker 2: like the beautiful straight characters. Well they let the straight
Speaker 2: woman kiss a gay man the hot game.
Speaker 1: But not the gay man's partner.
Speaker 2: We had to just peck. Do you guys have this
Speaker 2: like sexy, romantic, steamy kiss woo? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I remember because I got to be on safetand.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh my.
Speaker 1: Was supposed to be fabulous, but like more than once
Speaker 1: it blew into my mouth and I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: just not hurt. I don't have the like. I'm more like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little more of a hobbit than
Speaker 1: a pop star.
Speaker 2: But here we are hobbit hobbit it around.
Speaker 1: A little bit.
Speaker 2: Happy, happy hobbit. We had good times though.
Speaker 1: Happy Easter.
Speaker 2: I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think
Speaker 2: about us all the time because Stage nineteen, I think,
Speaker 2: is where we were, and it's right by the gym,
Speaker 2: and I go there all the time and I always
Speaker 2: think about us.
Speaker 1: To shoot a show on that lot, Warner Brothers, Law
Speaker 1: Universal law I'm still trying to manifest it.
Speaker 2: Again the best every time I come out of a
Speaker 2: stage at Warner Brothers and you see those look Have
Speaker 2: you watched the studio the new Apple Show?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's on my list as it could.
Speaker 2: It's really cool. It's like the craft is incredible, meaning.
Speaker 1: How they shoot. Yes, okay, it's.
Speaker 2: Gorgeous and like most it feels like it's one shot.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, And it's so like fast paced, and there's
Speaker 2: dozens of extras everywhere, and it's it's all on Warner Brothers,
Speaker 2: so that you see the lot all the time and
Speaker 2: it's it's very cool.
Speaker 1: Do you love is there really? I feel like there
Speaker 1: is a viewer for me a difference in the sort
Speaker 1: of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh and
Speaker 1: so doing shrinking do you do you just sort of
Speaker 1: is it palpable for you?
Speaker 2: I mean Bill Lawrence? Yes, the answer is yes. Like
Speaker 2: Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool and he he
Speaker 2: runs such a it's like an asshole free zone. There's
Speaker 2: nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun
Speaker 2: kind man. He comes on set and and you know,
Speaker 2: he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous.
Speaker 2: It makes everyone everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on
Speaker 2: set because we know, like, oh, he's gonna, you know whatever,
Speaker 2: even if it's great, he's going to make it better.
Speaker 2: Even if what we're doing is already great, he's going
Speaker 2: to make it better. And and he's so busy as
Speaker 2: so many things going on. He's like doing ten shows
Speaker 2: at once. So smart, and he's so smart, and he
Speaker 2: surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have
Speaker 2: been with him for decades.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you always know when you meet somebody
Speaker 2: or work with somebody and they've got the same people
Speaker 2: around them and have for a long time. Yes, that's
Speaker 2: that's I think a really good sign.
Speaker 1: I've had this experience this year because listen, I love
Speaker 1: what we do, and sometimes set is not a nice
Speaker 1: place to be and we've all had the best and
Speaker 1: the worst of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And.
Speaker 1: The revelation for me this year of working on a
Speaker 1: Shonda Rhime set has been wild. Oh, because they it's this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everyone is happy to be there. Nobody has a chip,
Speaker 1: nobody's checking the clock, nobody's trying to get home early.
Speaker 1: But they do want to make sure people get home,
Speaker 1: like in time to see their kids, right, you know, right,
Speaker 1: the whole dynamic. And then you go, oh, I get why.
Speaker 1: You guys have been doing this for twenty one years,
Speaker 1: like the entire time I've been an actor. They've been
Speaker 1: making this one show of.
Speaker 2: Hers And that's crazy.
Speaker 1: Crazy, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: That's just been on for twenty one years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, I know. And it's lovely. It's a lovely
Speaker 1: place to go to work.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people you've been there
Speaker 2: the whole time.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean crew members, you know, started working
Speaker 1: when they were young and now their kids are Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, it's crazy.
Speaker 2: Homes bought, mortgage is paid. Yeah, so that's really that's amazing.
Speaker 2: It's really cool. It's cool when the right person becomes
Speaker 2: a boss. Yes, it's a really like wonderful, magical special thing.
Speaker 1: And I like knowing that you have that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got a great boss. And everybody. It's
Speaker 2: a great it's a great crew, it's a great cast
Speaker 2: is amazing. The writing is amazing.
Speaker 1: Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you.
Speaker 1: Oh obviously, you know, all I want to do is
Speaker 1: talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turned
Speaker 1: into the therapist at the corner of every party. So
Speaker 1: now that there's a show that's on about a therapist
Speaker 1: and his world, I'm just like I've been waiting for this.
Speaker 2: It's also like I feel like this show and this
Speaker 2: is you know, I mean, having done a bunch of
Speaker 2: gay stuff no why you know what I'm saying the
Speaker 2: TV theater, you know, for like you know, quite a while.
Speaker 2: Now I will get recognized by queer people or the
Speaker 2: ladies who love them. And and now lately it's been
Speaker 2: a lot of straight boys, straight men because because this
Speaker 2: show lets them talk about their feelings and it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's pretty moving. Just last night,
Speaker 2: somebody came up to me who I know, who I
Speaker 2: hadn't seen in a long time, and he said, I
Speaker 2: just have to tell you that we have a family
Speaker 2: member and this show has we haven't you know, like
Speaker 2: there's been some tension and this show has brought us
Speaker 2: back together. I know, I know. And it's like this
Speaker 2: that like there's something about these straights. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a Harrison Ford thing, It's a Jason Siegel thing, a
Speaker 2: Bill Lawrence thing, Like these guys have tapped into like
Speaker 2: a like a masculine sensitivity, and uh, it's it's cool.
Speaker 1: It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the
Speaker 1: obvious nightmare you know, for women, we're people, most of
Speaker 1: us in the world of the manosphere that is so
Speaker 1: violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool
Speaker 1: thing with these men because they're dudes. Yeah, like Harrison
Speaker 1: Board's the he's.
Speaker 2: The dutiest dude of all dudes.
Speaker 1: And they're just they're not so evolved that they're like insufferable.
Speaker 1: They're not whatever anyone thinks like an evolved man is.
Speaker 1: They're just healthy men or men working on being healthy,
Speaker 1: figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice
Speaker 1: to see mask uinity that isn't trying to punch you
Speaker 1: in the face.
Speaker 2: Yes, but that's.
Speaker 1: Still allowed to be funny and flawed and yeah and
Speaker 1: heroic and he's allowed to be a good dad and
Speaker 1: all these things. And you're like that that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: That's like, it's nice. That's what's possible. Yeah, that's what's possible.
Speaker 2: And for it to be from a guy who is
Speaker 2: a puncher and a guy who does has done gross
Speaker 2: R rated comedies, you know, like that these guys can
Speaker 2: now come around and evolve in two and Bill's been
Speaker 2: on this trajectory all along, you know, you know, from
Speaker 2: the days of Spin City and Scrubs. He was on
Speaker 2: his way towards something that was like a more evolved,
Speaker 2: growing comedy I think. So, yeah, have you guys talked
Speaker 2: about that? No? No, but it's an interesting I have
Speaker 2: a little coffee talk yeah, Bill, Yeah, because he's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I think he's been I don't know, laying
Speaker 2: the seeds of better men, you know, men being better. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is really interesting because when.
Speaker 2: We started the podcast, yeah, I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Think we're just in it. We dove in normally I
Speaker 1: like to ask the question I'm about to ask you,
Speaker 1: But I do think we've hit a full circle moment
Speaker 1: because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially
Speaker 1: as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit
Speaker 1: down with people, not just people who I've been lucky
Speaker 1: enough to know for a long time, but people who
Speaker 1: do what we all do. Like you're saying out in
Speaker 1: the street, people meet you where you are in your career.
Speaker 1: They know about you. They've now at this point probably
Speaker 1: seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays.
Speaker 1: Who knows if you got to look back at your
Speaker 1: own life the way we're talking about even you know
Speaker 1: Bill as a storyteller, and you got to like go
Speaker 1: for a little hang with yourself twelve or ten, like
Speaker 1: in that Little Boy, would you see the adult you
Speaker 1: are today? Would you see a storyteller? Would you see
Speaker 1: the through line? Or would that kid be so wowed
Speaker 1: meet Michael Uri.
Speaker 2: That's wow? What an interesting I like to think the
Speaker 2: ten year old twelve year old me, if he watched TV,
Speaker 2: he would get a kick out of adult me. And
Speaker 2: I think maybe, and I mean certainly imagine like what
Speaker 2: would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty
Speaker 2: or you know, like gone to the theater and seen
Speaker 2: Spam a lot, or you know something that I've been
Speaker 2: in that a kid would like. And I think about
Speaker 2: that a lot. And I also I just was they
Speaker 2: needed pictures of me as a kid for a scene
Speaker 2: on shrinking, and I was just going through small pictures
Speaker 2: and there's a picture of me with my friends from
Speaker 2: boy Scouts. Did you have your little It was actually
Speaker 2: it was actually Club Scouts because I didn't make it
Speaker 2: to boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts.
Speaker 1: But not for me.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I'll be back at my house.
Speaker 2: But it was a picture of me and like four
Speaker 2: of us all like like hey, I mean, let's get
Speaker 2: a picture, you know, arms around each other, and they're
Speaker 2: all like smiling, and I'm making the goofyest intentionally goofyest
Speaker 2: space you've ever seen, like moh and uh, probably eleven
Speaker 2: twelve in that picture. And I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I was a clown. Yeah, I was a clown. Then
Speaker 2: a little yeah, it was a little ham And so
Speaker 2: there is part of me that wants to go back.
Speaker 2: And of course, you know rewatching Ugly Betty, which is
Speaker 2: later but still very very young me. Yeah, And whenever
Speaker 2: I think I haven't figured anything out yet, you know,
Speaker 2: now as a forty four year old, I think I
Speaker 2: don't know anything, I haven't figured anything out yet, and
Speaker 2: then I look back and see that goofy kid making
Speaker 2: everyone laugh in the cub Scout picture or you know
Speaker 2: Ugly Betty, I think, oh, I might be able to
Speaker 2: learn a thing or two from him.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: There was something about that confidence that I had then
Speaker 2: that has I still have confidence and I still like
Speaker 2: know what I'm capable of, but there's definitely like I
Speaker 2: miss him. I missed that kid that didn't that had
Speaker 2: never been told no, you know, that whole thing.
Speaker 1: I remember. I remember sort of realizing looking back at
Speaker 1: the first year we were on the set doing One
Speaker 1: Tree Hill. I just turned twenty one, I remember saying,
Speaker 1: and I heard it when it came out of my mouth,
Speaker 1: reflecting on her, going, well, I was just young enough
Speaker 1: not to know better, meaning like I didn't know. I
Speaker 1: couldn't go what the you know to my boss who
Speaker 1: was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time.
Speaker 1: I didn't and people were like, what are you doing?
Speaker 1: And I just I didn't know. There were structures in place.
Speaker 1: And I love that I didn't. I love the unaware confidence,
Speaker 1: the ability to just lean into like what you feel,
Speaker 1: what you know to be right. And I do think
Speaker 1: how lucky we are to be forty somethings and to
Speaker 1: be evolved enough to you have you know, lived and
Speaker 1: grown and you can hold so many things to be
Speaker 1: true and it's so great. And sometimes I just want
Speaker 1: the absolutely unconscious confidence of a twenty one or a
Speaker 1: twelve year old.
Speaker 2: I know, I always feel like in my twenties I
Speaker 2: thought I knew everything, and then in my thirties I
Speaker 2: realized I didn't and it freaked me out. And now
Speaker 2: I know things Like now I'm like, oh, I do
Speaker 2: know things. Yeah, there's a lot I know, and there's
Speaker 2: stuff I don't know. And I'm okay with that. I'm
Speaker 2: pretty okay. Yeah, and maybe not okay with that, but no,
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: It's like one of those boards you see people on
Speaker 1: on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw.
Speaker 2: It's that exactly exactly. But all my friends who are thirty,
Speaker 2: I think they're the oldest people in the world. That's
Speaker 2: the really fascinating And I did too when I would
Speaker 2: turn thirty.
Speaker 1: That's the hard older at thirty than I felt at
Speaker 1: for oh a thousand, very young now, which is weird. Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of nice.
Speaker 2: You look exactly the same. By the way, listener, I
Speaker 2: appreciate that. O case you haven't seen her Shopsivia Bush,
Speaker 2: she likes exactly what recently was.
Speaker 1: Like, really, what's the thing? And I said, I wish
Speaker 1: I could take credit for my lack of sun damage.
Speaker 1: I was just locked in soundstage for the entire decade
Speaker 1: of my twenties, so when everyone else got sunburned, I
Speaker 1: was a vampire, which is great for me in my forties,
Speaker 1: but at the time I was like, I want to
Speaker 1: go on a vacation New Mexico and I just never did.
Speaker 2: No, you're you're busy taking that flight back and forth,
Speaker 2: four flights a weekend, four flights a weekend.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, interesting to talk about our first jobs because
Speaker 1: we're doing the same thing right now and watching our
Speaker 1: first shows. Wild, right, what I have so many questions? Well, okay,
Speaker 1: they're all running through my head at rapid fire, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, which one do I pick? What is it like?
Speaker 1: Because you've talked about this a little bit, but I
Speaker 1: haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now?
Speaker 1: How ahead of its time the show was?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: What do you what do you see? What do you
Speaker 1: pick up on? How does it feel to watch it?
Speaker 1: You know for the two of you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild.
Speaker 1: What are you realizing about this thing that you that
Speaker 1: you made?
Speaker 2: First of all, it's so relieved and proud to know
Speaker 2: that something we made, you know, we shut the pilot
Speaker 2: nineteen years ago, something that we did all the way
Speaker 2: back then was on the right side of history for
Speaker 2: the most part. I mean, there's a few things that
Speaker 2: are you know, like that are It's one of those
Speaker 2: shows that like we we went there with race stuff,
Speaker 2: we went there with queer stuff. And when something was
Speaker 2: you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic,
Speaker 2: that was that was on the bat, that was that
Speaker 2: was bad in the show. So even though we would
Speaker 2: just we would occasionally go there, it was bad. Like
Speaker 2: if I was racist on the show, if my character
Speaker 2: was racist, he got his come up and by the
Speaker 2: end and he was like that. So we were never
Speaker 2: doing it just for the sake of doing it, whereas
Speaker 2: if you watch some shows, like especially like the nineties,
Speaker 2: everything is gay, panic, horrible, everything horrible. It's crazy like
Speaker 2: are we okay?
Speaker 1: Were people okay? No, you're so scared of us?
Speaker 2: What are you so scared of? And why is this
Speaker 2: so funny? And also the funny racism, Like there was
Speaker 2: that period where we were like it was all just
Speaker 2: funny to be racist, and it was like, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't mean it, I being you know, I'm just
Speaker 2: it's a I mean affable, you know, It's like, no,
Speaker 2: that's that's actually not funny. That's not funny, and we
Speaker 2: and we all thought it was okay to laugh at
Speaker 2: those things. I guess so that it's a relief to rewatch,
Speaker 2: like we Betty, And when those things do come up,
Speaker 2: they're not they're bad. They're like, that's not a good thing.
Speaker 1: They're observed as a bad thing. Yes, we'll be back
Speaker 1: in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think
Speaker 1: you have to take it's almost like a math equation
Speaker 1: to me, you have to sort of analyze what was
Speaker 1: transferm at the time and how it had to be done.
Speaker 1: And the fact that there was a trans character on
Speaker 1: Ugly Buddy was a very huge and the fact, by
Speaker 1: the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in
Speaker 1: the world played that trans character. Actually, I think at
Speaker 1: the time, given where society was, probably did more in
Speaker 1: that year for transvisibility than would have been done otherwise, because,
Speaker 1: let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role
Speaker 1: to an actual trans woman on a show at the time.
Speaker 1: And so I deal with this stuff too, what rewatching
Speaker 1: my own show where I'm like, God, I hate that
Speaker 1: we did it. That way, But I'm glad that we
Speaker 1: opened the door so that other people could come in
Speaker 1: the door. I talked to Kevin McHale about this.
Speaker 2: A lot with his character on Lee, Sure.
Speaker 1: You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who
Speaker 1: actually was in a wheelchair had played totally. However, his
Speaker 1: character changed the representation for disabled characters on television and so.
Speaker 2: And it showed disabled young disabled people who wanted to
Speaker 2: be actors that there was a place for them that
Speaker 2: like I could do something.
Speaker 1: Yes, that you could even go out for a TV
Speaker 1: show in.
Speaker 2: The first place, and maybe be on a hit show
Speaker 2: as a series regular on Foxy, you know that exactly
Speaker 2: on Fox of all networks, by the way, exactly.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to kind of have to look at
Speaker 1: the thing for what was good and what was bad
Speaker 1: and then divide it by the year it was on
Speaker 1: the team.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like a little equation.
Speaker 1: Mark math person should make the actual equation for that
Speaker 1: for us. It's not me, but I see it in
Speaker 1: my head.
Speaker 2: And when and and you know, when we would go
Speaker 2: into issues with when we would like have storylines about
Speaker 2: alexis mean on Ugly Betty her father was not accepting
Speaker 2: and he was a bad man and he ended up dying.
Speaker 2: You know, like that was like, that's love that that's what. Yes,
Speaker 2: and played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale, who
Speaker 2: was not a bad man, but the character was a
Speaker 2: bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman
Speaker 2: character that played Alexis Claire Meade. She was a complicated character,
Speaker 2: but she loved her daughter and she was good and
Speaker 2: she lived. You know, it's like that, and it was
Speaker 2: jud Light. So here we have gay icon you know,
Speaker 2: who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they
Speaker 2: bring her in to support her trans daughter and that's
Speaker 2: like so you know, it was way ahead of its time,
Speaker 2: and it's so nice to watch it and not be
Speaker 2: cringey and a relief.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were on the CW. We have some cringe.
Speaker 1: There's some things that I go on all right, But
Speaker 1: then I you know, I also have the experience where
Speaker 1: sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation
Speaker 1: or do a storyline and I'm like, damn, I actually
Speaker 1: get why this was such a big deal. And it's
Speaker 1: cool to get to become your own fan. I didn't
Speaker 1: have that. That's so nice.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I was too busy learning because I'd never
Speaker 2: done anything, and so I would watch. This has come
Speaker 2: up a lot on our show too. It's like I
Speaker 2: remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember
Speaker 2: a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm
Speaker 2: becoming a fan of like the other actors on the show.
Speaker 2: I slept on you, but like, but I was so
Speaker 2: focused on getting my own stuff right and then rewatching
Speaker 2: my scenes to learn because I didn't know anything about
Speaker 2: being on camera, and so I would watch and learn
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me,
Speaker 2: or I need to pay more attention when the camera
Speaker 2: is there. I used to do this thing. This is
Speaker 2: so silly, you know how, And so like you know how,
Speaker 2: like like like like this, there's these two cameras on
Speaker 2: this when they'll do coverage, so there's a camera, say
Speaker 2: over your scene partner's left shoulder, and then another scene
Speaker 2: or another another setup that put the camera between us
Speaker 2: on the other side and I. For the first few seasons,
Speaker 2: or maybe the first season or everybody, I would cheat
Speaker 2: towards wherever the camera was, Like I was on stage,
Speaker 2: you know, like on stage you cheat to the audience,
Speaker 2: And so I saw I would see myself on TV
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, none of this matches.
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're like, why am I jumping around?
Speaker 2: It's so embarrassing. I would like, yes, I was like,
Speaker 2: why am I? Like my my face is towards the
Speaker 2: camera no matter where it is. And now I know,
Speaker 2: like you can't. You just can't do that. You have
Speaker 2: to be real right and the camera's going to get you.
Speaker 2: The camera knows. The camera's doing its job. You don't
Speaker 2: know how to do it for it. It's really, I know,
Speaker 2: it's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested
Speaker 2: to hear what you think, because, like you know, sometimes
Speaker 2: you think I want to forget the cameras there. I
Speaker 2: want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like,
Speaker 2: oh no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who is on shrinking
Speaker 2: his relationship with the camera is is more important than anything.
Speaker 2: It's it's he's always talking to the camera. He talks
Speaker 2: to the camera crew more than any of us, and
Speaker 2: he's so he knows that camera as good as anyone
Speaker 2: on the set. Oh I love it, and it's really
Speaker 2: I learned so much watching the way that he deals
Speaker 2: with the camera. Oh I love that because like, on
Speaker 2: the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like
Speaker 2: it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important.
Speaker 2: You have to love the camera.
Speaker 1: What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be
Speaker 1: as good at it as he is. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: not a person who necessarily understands what lens worth throwing up.
Speaker 1: I know, if we're going wide or long, sure, that's
Speaker 1: kind of it. What I have come to discover, And
Speaker 1: I do spend a lot of I spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time with my camera crews, and I spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time with my props department. M My favorite
Speaker 1: thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance.
Speaker 1: And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really
Speaker 1: well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there.
Speaker 1: It's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance
Speaker 1: becomes something I don't even it's it's muscle memory. And
Speaker 1: so what I'm thinking about particularly, I have this movie
Speaker 1: that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of
Speaker 1: a book. So you know, I was like really geeked
Speaker 1: about that. We filmed in this really sort of the
Speaker 1: house itself felt like a set. It was very austere
Speaker 1: and sterile and modern and it but a location.
Speaker 2: It was like a real location.
Speaker 1: We were out in Utah. It really lent a certain
Speaker 1: quality to the movie. And the director who we were
Speaker 1: working with is a big el mold of our fan,
Speaker 1: and we watched all these sequences of things that he
Speaker 1: loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you
Speaker 1: get to know the house following my character. It Yes,
Speaker 1: she comes home and she's doing these things and so
Speaker 1: all the stuff, you know, where you put your bag
Speaker 1: and where you toss your keys, and what you're doing.
Speaker 1: And I want to come in with flowers because I
Speaker 1: do this every Tuesday, and I go to get a
Speaker 1: vaz And we did all of these things, and the
Speaker 1: camera it was this one shot that had to move
Speaker 1: all through you know, driveway up the thing in the
Speaker 1: front door, into the living room which has art sculptures
Speaker 1: in it, and then around the dining table into the
Speaker 1: kitchen and all this stuff. And we had just gotten
Speaker 1: everyone's photos and all the child's photos and family photos,
Speaker 1: you know set and I remember at one point when
Speaker 1: we were figuring out what I was going to be doing,
Speaker 1: where the things were going to be going, saying to
Speaker 1: the director and the camera operator who's on the study,
Speaker 1: which for our friends at home, it's like this giant
Speaker 1: it almost looks like a kevlar vest. Yeah yeah, and
Speaker 1: it has this arm on it and the camera floats
Speaker 1: around in the hands of the operator. And I looked
Speaker 1: up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing
Speaker 1: and then doing this thing, and do you want me
Speaker 1: to throw a glance to one of the foot photos
Speaker 1: so you can go off me and track across these
Speaker 1: and then I can reach into frame to grab the
Speaker 1: vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen.
Speaker 1: And my and my camera operator and my director look
Speaker 1: at each other and they go, don't you love a
Speaker 1: technical act? And I was like, we're dancing, We're dancing,
Speaker 1: and it was this great way for it, so cool thing,
Speaker 1: And that's something I realized I've learned in all the
Speaker 1: years since we were little babies on our first set,
Speaker 1: right right then, I feel like I'm in on it.
Speaker 1: And then I love.
Speaker 2: Being aw you directed, right, Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I bet, I bet you're good at that. That's such
Speaker 2: an interesting because that was something I learned, like a
Speaker 2: motivated pan you know, like you help that you help
Speaker 2: them tell the story by looking. It's a very interesting
Speaker 2: these did say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they
Speaker 2: didn't know where to cut, they'd say, cut to America.
Speaker 2: Like if they didn't know how to figure out what
Speaker 2: the story was, what's the story in this moment the
Speaker 2: edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America. She'll tell
Speaker 2: the story. And there is something about that, like central character,
Speaker 2: the one with the you know, the character with the
Speaker 2: problem or the one who's trying to solve the problem.
Speaker 2: If it's a good actor, and she was a very
Speaker 2: very good actor, you could always cut to her and
Speaker 2: she would have exactly the right emotion on her face
Speaker 2: to help tell the story. I love, I know. It's
Speaker 2: it's there's nothing nothing feels better than when someone who's
Speaker 2: not an actor on a set says, you're helping me.
Speaker 2: It's just like such a you know when when a
Speaker 2: writer says it or the director says it. It's just
Speaker 2: like because because we know what we can do, we
Speaker 2: know what we're we know our thing, but we don't
Speaker 2: always know their things. And and uh and and it's
Speaker 2: the dance. It's really it's really cool. It's a really
Speaker 2: like it's a really exciting thing because I also think
Speaker 2: what's cool about being on a set is on a
Speaker 2: movie set, are a TV set, is people come from
Speaker 2: all walks of life, yes, to end up doing uh production,
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe there's like a few paths that
Speaker 2: people are chasing. Uh. You know, people go to Hollywood
Speaker 2: to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to
Speaker 2: be an ad or or you know, like a gaffer.
Speaker 2: They might want to be a DP, and they are
Speaker 2: working their way towards that, but they come from all
Speaker 2: walks of life and uh, and they focus specifically on
Speaker 2: their lane. And so there's there's all these experts. Everyone's
Speaker 2: kind of an expert, and it's really yeah, it's there's
Speaker 2: so much to learn and and everyone's so different and
Speaker 2: so you really get like difference in the theater. It's
Speaker 2: I guess in the theater people are more alike. Everyone
Speaker 2: kind of like did plays in high school and and
Speaker 2: now maybe they're stage manager or they're lighting designers or
Speaker 2: the directors. But we all kind of came from the
Speaker 2: same stuff. And that's also cool. That's also really fun.
Speaker 2: And certainly in a musical you end up with musicians
Speaker 2: and dancers and things like that, But on a film set,
Speaker 2: you just never know where someone came from and what
Speaker 2: they how they ended up there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when you start, you have your first
Speaker 1: meeting with a UPM or a line producer, and you're like,
Speaker 1: what do you do? You do the Excel spreadsheets, what
Speaker 1: you know? And then there's someone who's just purely creative,
Speaker 1: you know, the special effects makeup person, and you're like,
Speaker 1: it's so weird that you guys are great friends and
Speaker 1: you do this job together. But yeah, you're right, they
Speaker 1: don't speak the same language at all. Did because you,
Speaker 1: obviously and Becky are so close and you do the
Speaker 1: rewatch show together still ugly, which I find to be hilarious.
Speaker 1: That's off to you. How did you guys decide to
Speaker 1: come back to it to do a podcast? And is
Speaker 1: it because you have just been such great friends that
Speaker 1: it felt like it made sense?
Speaker 2: Yes, it felt inevitable. We have remained friends all these
Speaker 2: years we did. We've done lots of things outside of
Speaker 2: our time on agly Betty. When we did the show,
Speaker 2: they spun us off to a web series. We had
Speaker 2: a web series, Oh Crazy, and we had a podcast. Actually,
Speaker 2: ABC came to us and they were like, in the
Speaker 2: first of its time. We are venturing into the soundscape
Speaker 2: and we would like to do a podcast, and they like,
Speaker 2: we're like, what's a podcast? You know, it's like twenty
Speaker 2: eighteen or two thousand and eight, what's a podcast? And
Speaker 2: there were some other shows that had podcasts, but it
Speaker 2: was like, you know, a marketing person would run it,
Speaker 2: and they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like
Speaker 2: to do it. And we did an episode for every episode,
Speaker 2: and we interviewed the whole cast, and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was crazy, and it was on ABC dot Com
Speaker 2: and we would do it on our lunch breaks. They
Speaker 2: would bring micro ones to our dressing rooms and we
Speaker 2: would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable
Speaker 2: that we would have eventually come back to it. But yes,
Speaker 2: we stayed friends all these years. We did a cabaret
Speaker 2: act together, we did a musical once. We did have
Speaker 2: a succeed in business on we were trying together. We
Speaker 2: did we were supposed to do a pilot that got
Speaker 2: canned because of the pandemic. We were literally like I
Speaker 2: was literally like had a parking spot at Warner Brothers.
Speaker 2: We were about to shoot this some hilarious multi camera
Speaker 2: show where we played siblings, and then the pandemic happened,
Speaker 2: and you know, it got pushed out and which is
Speaker 2: totally understandable. And then when when then we saw people
Speaker 2: were doing rewatch podcasts. I was actually watching The Sopranos
Speaker 2: for the first time ever, which is the greatest show
Speaker 2: ever read of. Oh my god, I'm just a creator
Speaker 2: and I there's two rewatch podcasts from cast members of
Speaker 2: that show. And so after a particularly you know, amazing episode,
Speaker 2: I would like go listen, and I was like, this
Speaker 2: is really fun. We should be doing this. And of
Speaker 2: course Zach Braff does Zach Braff and Donald Fason have
Speaker 2: their Scrubs rewatch podcast, yeah, which is so good. And
Speaker 2: I was a guest because Zach directs Shrinking. He's one
Speaker 2: of our directors on Shrinking, and he's brilliant and their show,
Speaker 2: they got through all the episodes and now it's just
Speaker 2: a show. Now it's just a podcast, and I was like,
Speaker 2: that is so and it was so fun to be
Speaker 2: on and I was just inspired, and so Becky and
Speaker 2: I had talked about it over the years and then
Speaker 2: finally just made sense. And it's hard to schedule because
Speaker 2: we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix and
Speaker 2: I'm shooting Shrinking. But but it's really special and really
Speaker 2: fun to do, and we're getting to reconnect with our
Speaker 2: old friends and watch the show. But it definitely and
Speaker 2: the other thing that we didn't expect when we did
Speaker 2: the first podcast was that people would send us questions.
Speaker 2: I'm sure this happens to you too. Yeah, people would
Speaker 2: ask for advice, and so it became kind of they
Speaker 2: would like somehow, for some reason, Becky and I, who
Speaker 2: were playing evil characters on the show, were somehow counselors
Speaker 2: in their heads to these fans of the show. And
Speaker 2: it still happens. We still, you know, this round of
Speaker 2: this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff.
Speaker 2: And obviously we're not like experts, but Becky's really clever
Speaker 2: and we get we give some advice and give her
Speaker 2: very advice. It's very fun.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though,
Speaker 1: what people really want is they just want an opinion
Speaker 1: from a friend. And then we've played a character who
Speaker 1: feels like a friend to someone You are in that character, Psyche.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very sweet and in a way.
Speaker 1: I did this recently was I did an episode of
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler's podcast and she takes callers, and I'm also like, look,
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have a degree, you know, a
Speaker 1: health degree, but like I've certainly spent enough money in
Speaker 1: therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts, you know,
Speaker 1: after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice
Speaker 1: to get advice, not from necessarily an expert, just another
Speaker 1: human who's trying to figure it.
Speaker 2: Out, or an actual friend, you know, like a like
Speaker 2: a friend in your head is sometimes easier, you know,
Speaker 2: and sometimes when somebody's just getting the information face value,
Speaker 2: it's I heard somebody say you want your friends to
Speaker 2: listen and your therapist to tell you what to do,
Speaker 2: and it's always the opposite. Yes, yes, And so like
Speaker 2: maybe there's something about, you know, the friend in your
Speaker 2: head that's in between.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you do you think there's an added element
Speaker 1: of that because shrinking centers around yeah, therapy, Like, do
Speaker 1: the interactions you have with people because of the text
Speaker 1: of the show feel like they've changed?
Speaker 2: Well, because my character is it's so funny. That's a
Speaker 2: very funny question actually, because we I meet a lot
Speaker 2: of therapists who watched the show now, and this so
Speaker 2: my character on the show in this In the first season,
Speaker 2: he was this very like plucky, happy, go lucky guy,
Speaker 2: and he had this mantra, everything goes my way, and
Speaker 2: I knew when I read the first episodes. I was like, Okay, well,
Speaker 2: this is obviously upfront. I mean, obviously this isn't you know.
Speaker 2: He's just saying this, This isn't true. He doesn't really
Speaker 2: believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it
Speaker 2: can't be true. And I can tell already that eventually
Speaker 2: we're going to peel away the layers and find a
Speaker 2: real person underneath. It's not just like this. And then
Speaker 2: in the second season, and they did. And I had
Speaker 2: some amazing stuff in the first season, and then the
Speaker 2: second season even better stuff. And at one point in
Speaker 2: the second season, I'm going to fight with Jason Siegl's
Speaker 2: character and I'm making something about myself and he was like,
Speaker 2: are you really so much of a narcissist that you
Speaker 2: can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy,
Speaker 2: that's what narcissism is, having the courage to put yourself
Speaker 2: above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is.
Speaker 2: And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's
Speaker 2: so great. Yeah. And then and then occasionally people would say,
Speaker 2: you know this guy's like Bill would be like, and
Speaker 2: then you know, we keep we make sure we do
Speaker 2: this line, but also say something else, you know, say
Speaker 2: something you know that a narcissist would say in this moment.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, oh and interesting. And
Speaker 2: then I watched the second season and I started to realize,
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And
Speaker 2: then I met a therapist who watches the show and
Speaker 2: she was like, I love the show and I love
Speaker 2: your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And
Speaker 2: she goes, he's such a narcissist, just like almost accusatory,
Speaker 2: and I'm like this And then I was like, I've
Speaker 2: been playing a narcissist without realizing it, and and I thought,
Speaker 2: I was like this is It was fascinating because you know,
Speaker 2: a narcissist doesn't know there, they don't know they're a narcissist,
Speaker 2: and you actually you can't really tell them because that
Speaker 2: they won't really hear it and they'll just deflect it.
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I
Speaker 2: am in real life a narcissist and I would never
Speaker 2: know it. It's so weird. It's like really heady to
Speaker 2: think about. Yeah, but this character or not. But that's
Speaker 2: all anyone talks about and said. They're like always talking
Speaker 2: about how he's a narcissist. I'm like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I've been playing a little bit. But also I'm kind
Speaker 2: of proud of it, like I've been doing it right.
Speaker 1: That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got into.
Speaker 2: It right and not judging him and and it turns
Speaker 2: out it works. But that was something I you know,
Speaker 2: in drama school, I learned we would play villains, you know,
Speaker 2: doing Richard the Third and they're like, we're like, but
Speaker 2: this guy's terrible, and he says he's terrible. How am
Speaker 2: I supposed to play this? And they're like, you can't
Speaker 2: judge your characters. And so that was like one of
Speaker 2: those fundamental things that I learned, don't judge your characters,
Speaker 2: look at what you know, get inside of them and
Speaker 2: and figure out why they do what they do and
Speaker 2: all that, Ye, what makes them to Yeah, And the
Speaker 2: writing is so good on shrinking that I just play
Speaker 2: the role, you know, I just I just see what's there.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, Okay, this is when I think this
Speaker 2: is the I'll be damned, I'm playing a narcissist all
Speaker 2: this time.
Speaker 1: But here's what I'll tell you, And this is what
Speaker 1: I think is cool, because you not that you'll be shocked.
Speaker 1: I love to ask my therapist a million questions about
Speaker 1: how he does his job, and he's like, you're paying
Speaker 1: me to ask me about and I'm like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: have a question here, because you know, all the all
Speaker 1: the articles now are about narcissism, and you know, when
Speaker 1: you're trying to.
Speaker 2: I can't imagine why we're all talking about, right.
Speaker 1: No idea when you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself
Speaker 1: from one. You do a lot of research saying this
Speaker 1: for a friend, obviously, right, right, right, But I was like,
Speaker 1: how how do people know and how do you deal
Speaker 1: with it and how you know? Like is there never
Speaker 1: a question for someone who has this thing of like
Speaker 1: could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes,
Speaker 1: if you've ever asked yourself if you're a narcissist, you're not?
Speaker 1: Oh and i'ment all right, he said they would never
Speaker 1: they would, you know, and it was this really funny thing.
Speaker 1: And so maybe that's part of it for you, is
Speaker 1: to realize, as you said, the writing is so good
Speaker 1: that you're getting into the head of this person, and
Speaker 1: because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are
Speaker 1: playing him as he's written. But even the fact that
Speaker 1: you're asking the question means, don't worry, You're okay, You're
Speaker 1: not too close to It's funny.
Speaker 2: That's so funny. It's very interesting. Have you ever this
Speaker 2: is a this is maybe a different podcast, but no, yeah,
Speaker 2: kind of that. There's that thing like a narcissist, when
Speaker 2: a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become
Speaker 2: kind of like anti narcissist, where instead of making everything
Speaker 2: about themselves, they assume nothing is about them.
Speaker 1: Right, they become almost disembodied. Yes, yes, it's fascinating interesting.
Speaker 2: It's this like consequence of being tied to a narcissism
Speaker 2: where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs.
Speaker 2: And it's actually like the like the opposite, and it's
Speaker 2: it's still kind of narcissism, but it's like instead of
Speaker 2: it all being like me, me, me, me me. It's
Speaker 2: like no one, no one knows, you know, like, yes,
Speaker 2: don't look at me, don't look at me, don't y yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah I know.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this
Speaker 1: show possible. I mean, listen, it's it's life stuff, right.
Speaker 1: Our jobs are so cool and so crazy. How much
Speaker 1: fun to go to work and have everything be so
Speaker 1: funny And you're dealing with humor in the lens of
Speaker 1: mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not
Speaker 1: lost on me that the person I know you to
Speaker 1: be has found this job in this moment, you know
Speaker 1: that you are. You're gathering an audience in such a cool,
Speaker 1: positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people,
Speaker 1: you know, being human to each other. What what does
Speaker 1: it sort of feel like to have this now? Because
Speaker 1: you have been an advocate for so long, you have
Speaker 1: stood up for the community for so long, you have
Speaker 1: exemplified queer joy for so long in theater in the
Speaker 1: pride plays in your life and your love and your
Speaker 1: relationship and your work. Like and we are in a
Speaker 1: really weird time where so much of the progress we
Speaker 1: feels like it's being so violently erased, like, how are
Speaker 1: you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto
Speaker 1: your joy?
Speaker 2: It's so tiring, so exhausting. Yeah, well, I am heartened
Speaker 2: by people that, you know, back in the day, even
Speaker 2: when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who
Speaker 2: were out of the closet.
Speaker 1: Well especially not Yeah, no, you're right, I was about
Speaker 1: to say, especially not a lot of men, but really
Speaker 1: just not a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean more women, but not a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And and back then you still had to like make
Speaker 2: a whole thing about it, even when it was obvious
Speaker 2: that you know, you know, like nobody was surprised when
Speaker 2: I came out, but you still kind of had to
Speaker 2: because they were asking. I mean, I remember one of
Speaker 2: my first ever red carpets for Ugly Betty. This guy
Speaker 2: I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet, and this guy
Speaker 2: on a red carpet said so are you out and
Speaker 2: put a microphone in my face? And I was so
Speaker 2: did exactly that I made exactly the face you just made,
Speaker 2: like what what that? That question was so unfair. It's
Speaker 2: just not and I sort of hemden had and said, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I'm I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my
Speaker 2: That was my line that day. And the guy printed
Speaker 2: his question and my response and he he described my response,
Speaker 2: so it was in print. I don't remember what what
Speaker 2: the publication was, but he wrote my response like that.
Speaker 2: I harumphed hemden had yes and then said, I don't
Speaker 2: talk about my sexuality, which is just like you know,
Speaker 2: and you you, I know you've been there too. There's
Speaker 2: sometimes you get asked a question in an interview and
Speaker 2: you can tell there they've already decided what they're going
Speaker 2: to write. It doesn't really matter what you say. They've
Speaker 2: already figured out what they're going to write. And especially
Speaker 2: when you know, especially then, and especially when it came
Speaker 2: to things like that, and so like, on the one hand,
Speaker 2: it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to
Speaker 2: know that there's this huge community of queer people in media.
Speaker 2: The GLAD Awards was like, gosh, was that that came
Speaker 2: at the perfect time because we are being bombarded and
Speaker 2: especially you know since January of this year, like it's
Speaker 2: just NonStop, relentless. We have to we all have to
Speaker 2: stay so on top of things. And everybody went after
Speaker 2: I mean everybody I know wanted to like go on
Speaker 2: a news diet and did some of them went on
Speaker 2: the news fast and were just like can't you have
Speaker 2: to sort of keep up with things, And it's just
Speaker 2: relent it's relentless. But to go into a room like
Speaker 2: the GLAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people
Speaker 2: who've done the work and live there, live there truths,
Speaker 2: and and and not not only that, but they ad
Speaker 2: you know, they they are they are all all everyone
Speaker 2: in that room is an advocate. That was That was
Speaker 2: very special and that helped. That was one of those
Speaker 2: like healing, wonderful moments. And you know, and I've I've
Speaker 2: felt it on in a few different events that I've
Speaker 2: been host of or MC of, and and there is
Speaker 2: a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on,
Speaker 2: but you also are allowed to We're all, I think
Speaker 2: we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate
Speaker 2: what is working. And that was the thing about the
Speaker 2: GLAD Awards that I kept going back to when we
Speaker 2: did that, like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening
Speaker 2: and and all of our stuff is in the dumpster,
Speaker 2: All of our belongings are in the dumpster.
Speaker 1: Every precious to us.
Speaker 2: Yes, is in the dumpster, but there's also great work
Speaker 2: being done and constantly, and here's proof, here's here's here's
Speaker 2: millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of great work happening and a
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of we are moving the needle
Speaker 2: in so many ways.
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. Though, when you said
Speaker 1: it's just so exhausting, Yeah, it's exhausting to have to
Speaker 1: put out the same fire over and over again. Like
Speaker 1: we've done this, We've put it out. Can we not
Speaker 1: keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are
Speaker 1: you trying to burn people?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: You know? And the sort of cognitive dissonance of it.
Speaker 1: They want to come for our community in such a way,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y'all,
Speaker 1: Like you go clean up your side of the street.
Speaker 1: We're set here. Yeah, you know, I cracked a joke
Speaker 1: about it recently where I was like, none of y'all
Speaker 1: have you know, none of y'all have ever had a
Speaker 1: problem of a woman like me is married to an
Speaker 1: adulterer or white collar criminal or like what ever you
Speaker 1: have a problem of a woman like me wants to
Speaker 1: be married to another woman, Like, don't the girlies deserve
Speaker 1: the chance to be just as miserable as the rest
Speaker 1: of you, Like, come on, you know everybody's going to
Speaker 1: pay their taxes unless you're a billionaire, go criticize them.
Speaker 2: Like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me.
Speaker 1: But I think you're right. I think to be in
Speaker 1: a room where people are celebrated for exactly who they
Speaker 1: are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know,
Speaker 1: and for what they're able to do despite the fire.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, that's that part.
Speaker 1: It's a really big deal. And it was also just
Speaker 1: the most fun to watch you crush and host, and
Speaker 1: I mean the split, the split Glinda and alphaba alp
Speaker 1: absolutely did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh, I screamed,
Speaker 1: and I was like, shut up, Soviia on stage. All
Speaker 1: the moments were crushed.
Speaker 2: I've hosted enough now to know that, uh, fashion is
Speaker 2: your friend. When you're hosting something, it does have to
Speaker 2: work for you because we've all watched award shows where
Speaker 2: a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes.
Speaker 2: And if you come out looking great, that's your first
Speaker 2: joke in the bag. You look great. I don't need
Speaker 2: I don't need to get a laugh. Now I look great.
Speaker 2: The work is done. So shout out to Christian Seriano
Speaker 2: who designed that look, made that thing.
Speaker 1: Your carpet fit was Charles Harbuson.
Speaker 2: When oh wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist.
Speaker 2: I had seven looks that night.
Speaker 1: You crushed.
Speaker 2: It was really fun.
Speaker 1: I wanted all of it. It's like, where did that
Speaker 1: suit also come? Fringe, give it to me?
Speaker 2: That one so good? And then oh yeah it was.
Speaker 2: It was a really special night and so many, so many,
Speaker 2: so many cool people. And also you know you've been
Speaker 2: at that venue before backstage for other I mean I've
Speaker 2: been lots of different award shows. That backstage is so tiny,
Speaker 2: the room is not big, and it can get tense
Speaker 2: and awkward back there, and like people not wanting to
Speaker 2: associate or not want you know, it's like this these
Speaker 2: people's these people's people are keeping them away from these
Speaker 2: people's people, and like that kind of thing that happens
Speaker 2: backstage is weird, weird, creepy show busy things. Not at
Speaker 2: the Clout Awards, it's a party. At the Cloud Awards,
Speaker 2: it was and everyone was bigger because the everyone's looks
Speaker 2: were bigger, so there was even less space and more
Speaker 2: skin and it was and no tension backstage at all.
Speaker 2: I was back there the whole night. There was no tension.
Speaker 2: We were cramped, it was hot, but we loved it
Speaker 2: was so we loved being there. Everyone loved being there
Speaker 2: and was like supporting. And I think it was because
Speaker 2: we all knew we'd done the work. Nobody was worried.
Speaker 2: There was no like stress. It was no lick did
Speaker 2: I did I? It was all, oh, we did? You
Speaker 2: did I did? We've all all done the work. Everyone did,
Speaker 2: yeah and have and now we can we can you
Speaker 2: know we can. We can handle this. And that's something
Speaker 2: to say. There's something like I feel that way about
Speaker 2: really all the minority groups, like like everyone's everyone's had
Speaker 2: to deal with this already. So this new round of
Speaker 2: hate it feels different. It definitely this, this this administration
Speaker 2: feels different than the previous administration or his first administration,
Speaker 2: I should say. But even then, we've been through this.
Speaker 2: We know hate. We faced hate, yeah, even if it
Speaker 2: wasn't head on. We know what hate is meant for us,
Speaker 2: and we are already stronger for we already have like
Speaker 2: the thick skins. You're the one's without the thick skins.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, well, I think especially because we've we've
Speaker 1: been through this for so long. I mean I think about,
Speaker 1: you know, ten years ago, us being at you know,
Speaker 1: Pride Marches. I think about growing up going to them
Speaker 1: with my family, you know, we know the playbook now,
Speaker 1: and I think the some of the sadness of the
Speaker 1: you know, these these seeds they've sown, like the lies
Speaker 1: have come home to roosts. And it's like every accusation
Speaker 1: you make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting
Speaker 1: something you've done that you want people to think we've done.
Speaker 1: Because what your spiritual advisor is going to go to
Speaker 1: prison for assaulting a twelve year old Yes, mister president,
Speaker 1: like you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein, Like bro, I
Speaker 1: hate to break it to you, guys, but like the
Speaker 1: receipts are out right and it's not us. And it's
Speaker 1: why I love how viral that that hashtag not a
Speaker 1: drag queen keeps going for years because they're like, oh look,
Speaker 1: another one still has never been a drag queen. Guys.
Speaker 1: We're fun, y'all, y'all. Y'all need to you need to
Speaker 1: clean house on your end of the things. We will
Speaker 1: just be at the gladderwards by Michael, You're believe forever.
Speaker 2: And also that you think about like you really think
Speaker 2: that we we're just that we're doing this because of you.
Speaker 2: You think that we we we we are queer because
Speaker 2: of you, that this has anything to do with don't
Speaker 2: you realize that we they're narcissists. Well, that's that's right exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, they think it's all about them. It's it's
Speaker 2: all about this is our thing, this is this is
Speaker 2: about us, this is who we are, and this is
Speaker 2: and we did this because we didn't have a choice,
Speaker 2: because we are this.
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of them forget and again
Speaker 1: this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right,
Speaker 1: Like the people who ban books are never on the
Speaker 1: right side of history, to be clear, But they're trying
Speaker 1: to ban all of the books because they don't want
Speaker 1: people to know that pride started as a protest right,
Speaker 1: that that the fabulousness was born of struggle, that it
Speaker 1: was literally radical to be seen in public as you are.
Speaker 1: So are people chose to be seen in the best
Speaker 1: and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could
Speaker 1: get killed for it, right, And if people don't know that,
Speaker 1: they don't understand how actually revolutionary it can be to
Speaker 1: me yourself.
Speaker 2: If they don't know that, and if they don't like
Speaker 2: do the work to learn that, then they just believe
Speaker 2: whatever someone tells them, and they say that it's bad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then they also prot then no one cares
Speaker 1: what you're sleeping with, and like, well, y'all are the
Speaker 1: ones asking people live on camera on red carpets.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, trying to.
Speaker 1: Volunteer that information you're asking.
Speaker 2: You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a
Speaker 2: tweet of mine or an expost of mine that they
Speaker 2: said something like basically to the tune of don't rub
Speaker 2: it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming
Speaker 2: out and saying I'm straight.
Speaker 1: Like have you ever seen a movie?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And almost like you do you know what a
Speaker 2: rom com is. You're also disproving both of your points
Speaker 2: with this very message. You're asking me to be like you, yeah,
Speaker 2: and you're claiming your straightness.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess it's so.
Speaker 1: When people really were bombarding me when I started dating
Speaker 1: my partner, and they were like, well, what are you?
Speaker 1: How do you identify? What is the word? And I
Speaker 1: was like, has no one paid attention to any of
Speaker 1: the beautiful women I have kissed on both film and
Speaker 1: Elias for the last twenty years. No one's been paying attention,
Speaker 1: you know. And then I loved that. Meant much of
Speaker 1: the lesbian internet was like, we all knew you weren't
Speaker 1: just acting on easy. I was like, thank you, ladies, thank.
Speaker 2: You for seeing me.
Speaker 1: This is always where I have been seen.
Speaker 2: They were happy to claim they were very happy, welcome you.
Speaker 1: So happy to officially be home though it's been home
Speaker 1: for so long, when to be seen is so special?
Speaker 1: And I had like a very you know, I get
Speaker 1: very emotional when people that I love are happy and
Speaker 1: watching you win the critics choice ward, I was like, y,
Speaker 1: I'm just so amped for you.
Speaker 2: Thank you?
Speaker 1: Was it because you love the show and because you
Speaker 1: love the material and and you know the whole gang
Speaker 1: that puts it together and it's it's the critics choice.
Speaker 1: It's like, to me, it feels as cool as maybe sag.
Speaker 1: It really does feel like peers, right? Was it? Was
Speaker 1: that a really special one?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And interesting That's an interesting comparison because obviously SAG
Speaker 2: Awards is voted on by actors. Yeah, so that's you know,
Speaker 2: that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics,
Speaker 2: critics choice. The critics they're watching everything, that's it. They
Speaker 2: see everything but the keenest eye.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And to think that they watched what I did and
Speaker 2: said we like that. I mean obviously, like you know,
Speaker 2: we're all conditioned to think reviews don't matter, and it's
Speaker 2: and it's and of course sometimes it's true and sometimes
Speaker 2: it's not. But like it is part of the industry.
Speaker 2: I mean it is. Any art will eventually be dissected
Speaker 2: and criticized, good and good or bad, and so like
Speaker 2: it is, it is part. It is part of the industry.
Speaker 2: We all have to accept it, whether you read reviews
Speaker 2: or not. I don't actually read reviews. Well you're not
Speaker 2: trying to make yourself crazy, right, Well yeah, because then
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, well do I do what they want
Speaker 2: me to do? Or do I do what they want
Speaker 2: me to do or do what I think I should do?
Speaker 2: And but to know they're watching and smelling when I
Speaker 2: stepped in that was like really, really gratifying and super surprising.
Speaker 2: I mean I wasn't. I was not. I didn't know
Speaker 2: it just you know. My publicist texted me that day
Speaker 2: and she said, you just got nominated for a Critics
Speaker 2: Choice Award. And I was like, what what that's today?
Speaker 2: This is happening. I had no idea. And then we
Speaker 2: went and my sister was my date. And before it
Speaker 2: was the night before the Critics Choice posted some video
Speaker 2: of you know, like we're getting the room ready, and
Speaker 2: it was like like quick cuts of the seats with
Speaker 2: the pictures of the actors, you know, home board exactly,
Speaker 2: and I was one of them. And I was like,
Speaker 2: whoa alongside big stars, Like it was like Angelina Jelle
Speaker 2: and to me Moore and Michael Ury. And I was like,
Speaker 2: what is happening? And that was the first moment I
Speaker 2: was like whoa, I'm in the I'm in the video. Hey.
Speaker 2: And then we sat down and my sister was like,
Speaker 2: are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm
Speaker 2: not nervus. I'm not going to win. This is just
Speaker 2: that we're just gonna have a lovely night. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna win, and she's like, I think you might, and
Speaker 2: that was when I was like, whoa, Laura thinks I
Speaker 2: might and she doesn't know anything. If you think I'm might,
Speaker 2: if she thinks I'm might, truly yes and uh. And
Speaker 2: it reminded me actually have another moment when my when
Speaker 2: my mother said, my because it's so easy to talk
Speaker 2: yourself out of something. Yeah, it's so so easy. And
Speaker 2: when I was when I was in community college, I
Speaker 2: went to community college for a year out of high school,
Speaker 2: becau I had terrible grades and and I and I
Speaker 2: was trying. I was like change. I was sort of
Speaker 2: like going through a transition. I thought I wanted to
Speaker 2: be a drama teacher. And then I was like, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm good at acting, maybe I could be an actor,
Speaker 2: and and I was like maybe ya ya YadA. But
Speaker 2: then I had a teacher at this community college urged
Speaker 2: me to audition for Juilliard. And I was like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you think.
Speaker 2: But I'm perfectly happy at my community college and this
Speaker 2: is this is what I want to do. And my
Speaker 2: parents were like, how are we going to pay for Juilliard?
Speaker 2: It's so expensive, we don't have that kind of money.
Speaker 2: And I was like guys, I'm not going to get in.
Speaker 2: I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a
Speaker 2: good experience. And my mom goes, I think you might.
Speaker 2: And it was those two I'll never forget. Those two
Speaker 2: moments were really I talked myself out of a possibility
Speaker 2: both of those times, and my family kind of showed me.
Speaker 2: And it, I mean obviously, like one, by the time
Speaker 2: they said my name of the Critic's Choice Awards, the
Speaker 2: voting had been done, and it was nothing I could do.
Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, there's nothing you can really do.
Speaker 2: But it's certainly when I auditioned for Juilliard with my
Speaker 2: mom's confidence, that helped, you know, and my mom's not
Speaker 2: in the business. My mom doesn't know, but she watched
Speaker 2: me and she thought I was good, and she could
Speaker 2: see the other people were responding to me, and and
Speaker 2: she knew sometimes she knew yeah, yeah, really cool. Yeah
Speaker 2: it was cool. So it's uh, yeah, it's it's there's
Speaker 2: something about that, Like obviously all we do is in
Speaker 2: order to be seen. That's when we got into this.
Speaker 2: We wanted to like make stories and have people look
Speaker 2: at them. But yeah, and I know that people are
Speaker 2: seeing me, but to be seen is sort of different.
Speaker 2: They they they're saying, I get it, I get what
Speaker 2: you're doing and I like it. And that was that
Speaker 2: was very gratifying.
Speaker 1: That's so nice. It's such a nice valid Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it feels like a healthy, a healthy version of that too.
Speaker 1: Do the does the work you do with the Pride plays?
Speaker 1: Do you do? You also see it in that way
Speaker 1: as helping people be seen as helping queer stories be
Speaker 1: seen totally, like how did it? How did it come
Speaker 1: to fruition? And I sort of want the backstories you
Speaker 1: can tell us about how it's growing this.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, thank you, thanks for asking us. So basically,
Speaker 2: Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater a man of
Speaker 2: the theater. He's a lawyer and a producer. He and
Speaker 2: I became really good friends. He he was a producer
Speaker 2: of the solo play I did, Buyer and Seller, this
Speaker 2: play that I did for a long long time where
Speaker 2: I played an actor working in Barber Streisand's basement. Look
Speaker 2: it up, you love it? And and we became really
Speaker 2: good friends because we were the same age and we
Speaker 2: just got along really really well, and we kept we
Speaker 2: would always talk about queer theater and the good and
Speaker 2: the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater
Speaker 2: and a lot of queer theater, and there's no there's
Speaker 2: no like lack of queer stories in the theater. It's
Speaker 2: a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing. I
Speaker 2: kept noticing specifically that like it was me and the
Speaker 2: same couple of guys every time up for roles or
Speaker 2: we would follow each other like like, you know, Jesse
Speaker 2: Tyler Ferguson didn't do this, so I did it. I
Speaker 2: didn't do this, so Jesse did it. And it kept
Speaker 2: like and I was like, I get white people think
Speaker 2: Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike.
Speaker 2: We're actually very very different, and yet we keep getting
Speaker 2: you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: all right, well, that's like this is a problem we
Speaker 2: need to like and and I also know because I also, like,
Speaker 2: my partner is an actor, and I know lots of
Speaker 2: other queer actors, and and there's this there's this mid
Speaker 2: level issue which happens in I think all industries. But
Speaker 2: there's this thing where like you can get experience until
Speaker 2: you've had experience, and they won't give you a chance
Speaker 2: without experience, And so what Doug and I wanted to
Speaker 2: do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities.
Speaker 2: And also we didn't like that queer stories were continuing
Speaker 2: to be told by straight people when there are I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't think this. I don't have a black and
Speaker 2: white rule about this. I don't think I don't I
Speaker 2: think that this is a fluid conversation about you know,
Speaker 2: who can play what. But I do think when when
Speaker 2: a role or a story is inherently about the queerness,
Speaker 2: that to say a straight person is the best person
Speaker 2: for the job is silly and that happens a lot
Speaker 2: when you know, like you're like, well, can't we just
Speaker 2: hire the best person for the job, And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you can, and you should. But like who are you seeing?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Who's your casting pool?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Are you seeing all the street? Are you seeing all
Speaker 2: the gay people before you see the straight people, or
Speaker 2: as you see the straight people, or are you you know,
Speaker 2: is your list a bunch of straight people that you know? YadA, YadA, YadA.
Speaker 2: So that was something that and then Doug on his
Speaker 2: side of his side of the industry, was we were,
Speaker 2: you know, like as queer plays get submitted to theaters,
Speaker 2: they end up in the same pile. So you might
Speaker 2: have a play about a forty something white cis gay
Speaker 2: man in the same pile as a story about a
Speaker 2: twenty something black trans woman, And like those two plays,
Speaker 2: those two plays shouldn't be in the same category, right,
Speaker 2: Why are you putting them in the same category and
Speaker 2: then choosing one over the other.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you wouldn't put a World War two
Speaker 1: movie in a roum com in the same pile.
Speaker 2: Thank you? Exactly, you know exactly. And so that was like,
Speaker 2: it's like gay is not. Gay is not a category? Yeah,
Speaker 2: gay is you know, that's a that's a kind of
Speaker 2: a part queer is it. So we wanted to create
Speaker 2: a festival where they could all So we set out,
Speaker 2: we were like, let's do a festival, and it was
Speaker 2: this was for World Pride when it was in New
Speaker 2: York and twenty nineteen. That's when we started. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: we thought we could do like four plays, and then
Speaker 2: we were like, wait a minute, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: different kinds of people in this community and we need
Speaker 2: to try to represent all of them. And it ended
Speaker 2: up being nineteen Wow, and I think we did a
Speaker 2: really good job. It was it was it was hard,
Speaker 2: but I think we really did, you know, tick all
Speaker 2: the boxes, so to speak, and and and and reach
Speaker 2: out to like as much of the community as we
Speaker 2: could and try to represent all of them. And so
Speaker 2: in the in the years since, we did one on
Speaker 2: Zoom during the pandemic, and we've and we've done educational
Speaker 2: initiatives through the festivals. And this year we are World
Speaker 2: Pride is in d C and we're going We're going
Speaker 2: to d C for World Pride. Pride Plays will be
Speaker 2: an association with the William Memmath Theater Company during World Pride,
Speaker 2: and we're going to do I think we're going to
Speaker 2: do six play readings. And it should be it should
Speaker 2: be great. It might be charged, it might be it
Speaker 2: might be there might be some I don't know what
Speaker 2: it's going to be like. I mean, honestly don't know
Speaker 2: what it's going to be like. And things change so rapidly,
Speaker 2: especially in that town. But I've worked in that town
Speaker 2: a lot in the theater. I've done a lot of
Speaker 2: theater in that town, and it is one of my
Speaker 2: favorite places in the world to do theater because the
Speaker 2: audiences are so they're so they're so intelligent, but more
Speaker 2: than that, they are they're curious, they want to learn.
Speaker 2: And because their jobs are so intense, everyone in DC
Speaker 2: has such intense jobs, they really are able to like
Speaker 2: put it away and come and focus on something new,
Speaker 2: as opposed to sometimes in New York, like you get
Speaker 2: like professional theater goers who see four four shows a
Speaker 2: week and and so it's always it's always it's always
Speaker 2: work for them, and you can feel them say what's different,
Speaker 2: what's new? You know, in d C you can do,
Speaker 2: like in New York, if you're going to do say Hamlet,
Speaker 2: it's got to be like either definitive or brand new,
Speaker 2: some brand new version. And in d C you can
Speaker 2: just like throw Hamlet up and say this is Hamlet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it can just be very good.
Speaker 2: It can just be good, yeah exactly. It doesn't have
Speaker 2: to like reinvent Hamlet or be the best Hamlet ever,
Speaker 2: in which New York's you know.
Speaker 1: You've had seven times, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: And in New York you try to do some old
Speaker 2: play and you know, if you didn't, if you didn't
Speaker 2: completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird.
Speaker 2: But but but in DC, you can do that and
Speaker 2: the audience wants that. So so I know the audience
Speaker 2: will be great for us in d C. And I
Speaker 2: feel like it's going to be great. That's my hunch.
Speaker 2: You never know what you never know. Yeah, it's gonna
Speaker 2: be a lot of queer people come into.
Speaker 1: DC, you know what, good they need it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, And I think we have an
Speaker 2: opportunity to you know, change some change some minds.
Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors. When you look at this
Speaker 1: sort of landscape of your life and you know your
Speaker 1: life with Ryan and your life in work and that
Speaker 1: your advocacy and your shows and the plays and all
Speaker 1: the things, you have a lot what feels like you're
Speaker 1: work in progress.
Speaker 2: Right now, right right right the title.
Speaker 1: The title you knew it was coming, and then you
Speaker 1: forgott come full circle.
Speaker 2: There it is. It's probably actually there's there's some adulting
Speaker 2: that I think is a real work in progress. And
Speaker 2: that's that's something that I'm like, you know, like when
Speaker 2: I talk to people who are younger than I am,
Speaker 2: there are lots more of them now and that happens
Speaker 2: to us. Yeah, and what I see in their eyes
Speaker 2: that they're looking to me for some kind of insider advice.
Speaker 2: You know, I had somebody as somebody that I'm close
Speaker 2: with who's about thirty, asked me to mentor them, Like
Speaker 2: I actually asked me to mentor them, and I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: I can't. Yeah, I'm gonna too. Oh I am old
Speaker 2: enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around
Speaker 2: that and and and trusting that I'm an adult and
Speaker 2: I can do that, and I can like just off
Speaker 2: the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my
Speaker 2: own experience, because that's really hard thing, especially in our business,
Speaker 2: is all you really know is what happened to you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we've definitely've been around and we've been able to observe things,
Speaker 2: but I can only really, I can only really know
Speaker 2: what's happened to me and you your experience will definitely
Speaker 2: be different because we all have different different experiences. No
Speaker 2: two actors are the same. But it's navigating that, like
Speaker 2: the sort of the responsibility of being elder gay of
Speaker 2: being you know, like elder actor being the oldest person
Speaker 2: in the room sometimes. And then also outside of show business,
Speaker 2: you know, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages,
Speaker 2: and like those kinds of adult things nissas and nephews
Speaker 2: that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy
Speaker 2: things that I can hand back and like now they're
Speaker 2: you know, okay, this is forever. These memories are forever now,
Speaker 2: and I want to be you know, I want to
Speaker 2: be a good citizen to them. So I think the
Speaker 2: work in progress is actually being you know, like I
Speaker 2: think in show business, I'm way more at ease than
Speaker 2: I've ever been, and as a man adult, I'm figuring
Speaker 2: it out still. Yeah, I'm still figuring out like how
Speaker 2: do you be a man in this? And also our
Speaker 2: world keeps changing, so I'm giving myself a little bit
Speaker 2: of slack, a little bit of grace. But but yeah,
Speaker 2: what's it like to be a middle aged man.
Speaker 1: That's a big question.
Speaker 2: Because eighty eight feels good. That feels like a good
Speaker 2: age to make it too, So that means this is
Speaker 2: the middle I loving people who are well this is mean.
Speaker 1: I mean you have a whole other half, that's right,
Speaker 1: And look at what you've done in the first half.
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, totally, And so much of the first
Speaker 2: half was spent as a kid, yeah, which doesn't really
Speaker 2: count exactly. I was just grissy.
Speaker 1: It's like you get double the adult time now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's cool.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to do forty four more with you.
Speaker 2: Great, let's go. Oh okay, let's sing on a beach
Speaker 2: when we're eighty eight?
Speaker 1: How fast? Just not giving up?
Speaker 2: Right? I love you, I love you, Thank you. It's
Speaker 2: so nice to be THO for you. Thank you,