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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress high

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Speaker 1: wib Smarties. Today we are joined by one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite co stars ever, actor, producer, director, and host, Michael Uri,

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Speaker 1: who you know from bringing stories to life on screen,

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Speaker 1: on stage, and behind the scenes. He was everybody's favorite

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Speaker 1: Mark Saint James on ABC's Ugly Betty. He's been on

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Speaker 1: Modern Family, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Younger, Workaholics,

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Speaker 1: Partners with Me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Ever, Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's

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Speaker 1: hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics Choice Award.

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Speaker 1: He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of

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Speaker 1: us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school

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Speaker 1: humor back not only to the screen but to the

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Speaker 1: airwaves with his Ugly Betty co star Becky Newton and

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Speaker 1: their Rewatch podcast. Still Ugly and one of my very

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Speaker 1: favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare

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Speaker 1: time JK. He has none is He is the co

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Speaker 1: founder of New York City's Pride Plays, which celebrate and

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Speaker 1: elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking

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Speaker 1: the Pride Plays to Washington, d C. For World Pride,

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Speaker 1: and I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation,

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Speaker 1: lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to

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Speaker 1: keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with

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Speaker 1: Michael Ary.

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Speaker 2: I was trying to remember, is that right? We were

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Speaker 2: the first gay kiss.

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Speaker 1: On CBS and it was a peck.

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Speaker 2: Just pack.

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Speaker 1: It was a little smitchie. It's a little very cute.

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Speaker 2: So cute.

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Speaker 1: But what I was remembering is you never tell people

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Speaker 1: you made out Superman.

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Speaker 2: We didn't really make up, but yes, I do. OK.

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Speaker 2: The answer is one yes too. We didn't really make out.

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Speaker 2: It was always just a peck and it was never

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Speaker 2: very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about

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Speaker 2: as I walked over today was you and he had

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Speaker 2: a sexy kiss.

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Speaker 1: That's right? That like the David's nightmare?

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Speaker 2: Yeah it was?

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Speaker 1: Was it your nightmare?

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Speaker 2: Was it a nightmare? Like? Just oh yeah? It was

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Speaker 2: like a test. It was like let's see if I

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Speaker 2: feel anything. Oh yeah, I don't feel anything. Let me

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Speaker 2: just try one more time and they kiss again. It

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Speaker 2: was one of those was it?

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Speaker 1: I thought it was like a hallucination.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that was it? Now that you're saying that anyway, anyway,

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Speaker 2: I remember when did we watch our show? Also, that's

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Speaker 2: our that's our next podcast. But that's what I like.

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Speaker 2: I remember, Oh yeah, they let that. They let the

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Speaker 2: like the beautiful straight characters. Well they let the straight

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Speaker 2: woman kiss a gay man the hot game.

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Speaker 1: But not the gay man's partner.

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Speaker 2: We had to just peck. Do you guys have this

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Speaker 2: like sexy, romantic, steamy kiss woo? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I remember because I got to be on safetand.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh my.

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Speaker 1: Was supposed to be fabulous, but like more than once

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Speaker 1: it blew into my mouth and I was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: just not hurt. I don't have the like. I'm more like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a little more of a hobbit than

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Speaker 1: a pop star.

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Speaker 2: But here we are hobbit hobbit it around.

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Speaker 1: A little bit.

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Speaker 2: Happy, happy hobbit. We had good times though.

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Speaker 1: Happy Easter.

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Speaker 2: I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think

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Speaker 2: about us all the time because Stage nineteen, I think,

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Speaker 2: is where we were, and it's right by the gym,

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Speaker 2: and I go there all the time and I always

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Speaker 2: think about us.

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Speaker 1: To shoot a show on that lot, Warner Brothers, Law

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Speaker 1: Universal law I'm still trying to manifest it.

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Speaker 2: Again the best every time I come out of a

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Speaker 2: stage at Warner Brothers and you see those look Have

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Speaker 2: you watched the studio the new Apple Show?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's on my list as it could.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool. It's like the craft is incredible, meaning.

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Speaker 1: How they shoot. Yes, okay, it's.

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Speaker 2: Gorgeous and like most it feels like it's one shot.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, And it's so like fast paced, and there's

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Speaker 2: dozens of extras everywhere, and it's it's all on Warner Brothers,

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Speaker 2: so that you see the lot all the time and

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Speaker 2: it's it's very cool.

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Speaker 1: Do you love is there really? I feel like there

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Speaker 1: is a viewer for me a difference in the sort

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Speaker 1: of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh and

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Speaker 1: so doing shrinking do you do you just sort of

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Speaker 1: is it palpable for you?

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Speaker 2: I mean Bill Lawrence? Yes, the answer is yes. Like

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Speaker 2: Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool and he he

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Speaker 2: runs such a it's like an asshole free zone. There's

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Speaker 2: nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun

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Speaker 2: kind man. He comes on set and and you know,

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Speaker 2: he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous.

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Speaker 2: It makes everyone everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on

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Speaker 2: set because we know, like, oh, he's gonna, you know whatever,

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Speaker 2: even if it's great, he's going to make it better.

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Speaker 2: Even if what we're doing is already great, he's going

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Speaker 2: to make it better. And and he's so busy as

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Speaker 2: so many things going on. He's like doing ten shows

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Speaker 2: at once. So smart, and he's so smart, and he

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Speaker 2: surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have

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Speaker 2: been with him for decades.

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Speaker 1: I love that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you always know when you meet somebody

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Speaker 2: or work with somebody and they've got the same people

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Speaker 2: around them and have for a long time. Yes, that's

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Speaker 2: that's I think a really good sign.

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Speaker 1: I've had this experience this year because listen, I love

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Speaker 1: what we do, and sometimes set is not a nice

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Speaker 1: place to be and we've all had the best and

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Speaker 1: the worst of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And.

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Speaker 1: The revelation for me this year of working on a

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Speaker 1: Shonda Rhime set has been wild. Oh, because they it's this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: everyone is happy to be there. Nobody has a chip,

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Speaker 1: nobody's checking the clock, nobody's trying to get home early.

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Speaker 1: But they do want to make sure people get home,

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Speaker 1: like in time to see their kids, right, you know, right,

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Speaker 1: the whole dynamic. And then you go, oh, I get why.

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Speaker 1: You guys have been doing this for twenty one years,

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Speaker 1: like the entire time I've been an actor. They've been

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Speaker 1: making this one show of.

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Speaker 2: Hers And that's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Crazy, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: That's just been on for twenty one years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, I know. And it's lovely. It's a lovely

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Speaker 1: place to go to work.

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Speaker 2: And I think a lot of people you've been there

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Speaker 2: the whole time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean crew members, you know, started working

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Speaker 1: when they were young and now their kids are Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's crazy.

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Speaker 2: Homes bought, mortgage is paid. Yeah, so that's really that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: It's really cool. It's cool when the right person becomes

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Speaker 2: a boss. Yes, it's a really like wonderful, magical special thing.

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Speaker 1: And I like knowing that you have that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've got a great boss. And everybody. It's

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Speaker 2: a great it's a great crew, it's a great cast

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Speaker 2: is amazing. The writing is amazing.

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Speaker 1: Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you.

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Speaker 1: Oh obviously, you know, all I want to do is

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Speaker 1: talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turned

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Speaker 1: into the therapist at the corner of every party. So

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Speaker 1: now that there's a show that's on about a therapist

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Speaker 1: and his world, I'm just like I've been waiting for this.

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Speaker 2: It's also like I feel like this show and this

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Speaker 2: is you know, I mean, having done a bunch of

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Speaker 2: gay stuff no why you know what I'm saying the

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Speaker 2: TV theater, you know, for like you know, quite a while.

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Speaker 2: Now I will get recognized by queer people or the

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Speaker 2: ladies who love them. And and now lately it's been

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Speaker 2: a lot of straight boys, straight men because because this

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Speaker 2: show lets them talk about their feelings and it's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's it's it's pretty moving. Just last night,

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Speaker 2: somebody came up to me who I know, who I

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Speaker 2: hadn't seen in a long time, and he said, I

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Speaker 2: just have to tell you that we have a family

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Speaker 2: member and this show has we haven't you know, like

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Speaker 2: there's been some tension and this show has brought us

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Speaker 2: back together. I know, I know. And it's like this

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Speaker 2: that like there's something about these straights. You know, it's

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Speaker 2: a Harrison Ford thing, It's a Jason Siegel thing, a

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Speaker 2: Bill Lawrence thing, Like these guys have tapped into like

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Speaker 2: a like a masculine sensitivity, and uh, it's it's cool.

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Speaker 1: It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the

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Speaker 1: obvious nightmare you know, for women, we're people, most of

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Speaker 1: us in the world of the manosphere that is so

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Speaker 1: violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool

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Speaker 1: thing with these men because they're dudes. Yeah, like Harrison

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Speaker 1: Board's the he's.

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Speaker 2: The dutiest dude of all dudes.

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Speaker 1: And they're just they're not so evolved that they're like insufferable.

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Speaker 1: They're not whatever anyone thinks like an evolved man is.

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Speaker 1: They're just healthy men or men working on being healthy,

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice

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Speaker 1: to see mask uinity that isn't trying to punch you

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Speaker 1: in the face.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but that's.

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Speaker 1: Still allowed to be funny and flawed and yeah and

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Speaker 1: heroic and he's allowed to be a good dad and

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Speaker 1: all these things. And you're like that that's what I mean.

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Speaker 2: That's like, it's nice. That's what's possible. Yeah, that's what's possible.

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Speaker 2: And for it to be from a guy who is

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Speaker 2: a puncher and a guy who does has done gross

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Speaker 2: R rated comedies, you know, like that these guys can

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Speaker 2: now come around and evolve in two and Bill's been

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Speaker 2: on this trajectory all along, you know, you know, from

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Speaker 2: the days of Spin City and Scrubs. He was on

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Speaker 2: his way towards something that was like a more evolved,

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Speaker 2: growing comedy I think. So, yeah, have you guys talked

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Speaker 2: about that? No? No, but it's an interesting I have

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Speaker 2: a little coffee talk yeah, Bill, Yeah, because he's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think he's been I don't know, laying

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Speaker 2: the seeds of better men, you know, men being better. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this is really interesting because when.

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Speaker 2: We started the podcast, yeah, I mean, I.

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Speaker 1: Think we're just in it. We dove in normally I

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Speaker 1: like to ask the question I'm about to ask you,

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Speaker 1: But I do think we've hit a full circle moment

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Speaker 1: because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially

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Speaker 1: as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit

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Speaker 1: down with people, not just people who I've been lucky

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Speaker 1: enough to know for a long time, but people who

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Speaker 1: do what we all do. Like you're saying out in

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Speaker 1: the street, people meet you where you are in your career.

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Speaker 1: They know about you. They've now at this point probably

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Speaker 1: seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays.

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Speaker 1: Who knows if you got to look back at your

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Speaker 1: own life the way we're talking about even you know

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Speaker 1: Bill as a storyteller, and you got to like go

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Speaker 1: for a little hang with yourself twelve or ten, like

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Speaker 1: in that Little Boy, would you see the adult you

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Speaker 1: are today? Would you see a storyteller? Would you see

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Speaker 1: the through line? Or would that kid be so wowed

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Speaker 1: meet Michael Uri.

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Speaker 2: That's wow? What an interesting I like to think the

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Speaker 2: ten year old twelve year old me, if he watched TV,

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Speaker 2: he would get a kick out of adult me. And

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Speaker 2: I think maybe, and I mean certainly imagine like what

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Speaker 2: would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty

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Speaker 2: or you know, like gone to the theater and seen

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Speaker 2: Spam a lot, or you know something that I've been

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Speaker 2: in that a kid would like. And I think about

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Speaker 2: that a lot. And I also I just was they

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Speaker 2: needed pictures of me as a kid for a scene

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Speaker 2: on shrinking, and I was just going through small pictures

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Speaker 2: and there's a picture of me with my friends from

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Speaker 2: boy Scouts. Did you have your little It was actually

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Speaker 2: it was actually Club Scouts because I didn't make it

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Speaker 2: to boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts.

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Speaker 1: But not for me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I'll be back at my house.

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Speaker 2: But it was a picture of me and like four

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Speaker 2: of us all like like hey, I mean, let's get

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Speaker 2: a picture, you know, arms around each other, and they're

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Speaker 2: all like smiling, and I'm making the goofyest intentionally goofyest

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Speaker 2: space you've ever seen, like moh and uh, probably eleven

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Speaker 2: twelve in that picture. And I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was a clown. Yeah, I was a clown. Then

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Speaker 2: a little yeah, it was a little ham And so

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Speaker 2: there is part of me that wants to go back.

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Speaker 2: And of course, you know rewatching Ugly Betty, which is

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Speaker 2: later but still very very young me. Yeah, And whenever

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Speaker 2: I think I haven't figured anything out yet, you know,

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Speaker 2: now as a forty four year old, I think I

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Speaker 2: don't know anything, I haven't figured anything out yet, and

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Speaker 2: then I look back and see that goofy kid making

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Speaker 2: everyone laugh in the cub Scout picture or you know

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Speaker 2: Ugly Betty, I think, oh, I might be able to

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Speaker 2: learn a thing or two from him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There was something about that confidence that I had then

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Speaker 2: that has I still have confidence and I still like

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Speaker 2: know what I'm capable of, but there's definitely like I

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Speaker 2: miss him. I missed that kid that didn't that had

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Speaker 2: never been told no, you know, that whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I remember. I remember sort of realizing looking back at

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Speaker 1: the first year we were on the set doing One

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Speaker 1: Tree Hill. I just turned twenty one, I remember saying,

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Speaker 1: and I heard it when it came out of my mouth,

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Speaker 1: reflecting on her, going, well, I was just young enough

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Speaker 1: not to know better, meaning like I didn't know. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't go what the you know to my boss who

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Speaker 1: was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time.

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Speaker 1: I didn't and people were like, what are you doing?

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Speaker 1: And I just I didn't know. There were structures in place.

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Speaker 1: And I love that I didn't. I love the unaware confidence,

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Speaker 1: the ability to just lean into like what you feel,

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Speaker 1: what you know to be right. And I do think

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Speaker 1: how lucky we are to be forty somethings and to

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Speaker 1: be evolved enough to you have you know, lived and

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Speaker 1: grown and you can hold so many things to be

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Speaker 1: true and it's so great. And sometimes I just want

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Speaker 1: the absolutely unconscious confidence of a twenty one or a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old.

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Speaker 2: I know, I always feel like in my twenties I

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Speaker 2: thought I knew everything, and then in my thirties I

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Speaker 2: realized I didn't and it freaked me out. And now

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Speaker 2: I know things Like now I'm like, oh, I do

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Speaker 2: know things. Yeah, there's a lot I know, and there's

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Speaker 2: stuff I don't know. And I'm okay with that. I'm

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Speaker 2: pretty okay. Yeah, and maybe not okay with that, but no,

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Speaker 2: I'm okay with that.

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Speaker 1: It's like one of those boards you see people on

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Speaker 1: on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw.

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Speaker 2: It's that exactly exactly. But all my friends who are thirty,

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Speaker 2: I think they're the oldest people in the world. That's

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Speaker 2: the really fascinating And I did too when I would

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Speaker 2: turn thirty.

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Speaker 1: That's the hard older at thirty than I felt at

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Speaker 1: for oh a thousand, very young now, which is weird. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: kind of nice.

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Speaker 2: You look exactly the same. By the way, listener, I

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Speaker 2: appreciate that. O case you haven't seen her Shopsivia Bush,

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Speaker 2: she likes exactly what recently was.

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Speaker 1: Like, really, what's the thing? And I said, I wish

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Speaker 1: I could take credit for my lack of sun damage.

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Speaker 1: I was just locked in soundstage for the entire decade

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Speaker 1: of my twenties, so when everyone else got sunburned, I

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Speaker 1: was a vampire, which is great for me in my forties,

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Speaker 1: but at the time I was like, I want to

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Speaker 1: go on a vacation New Mexico and I just never did.

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Speaker 2: No, you're you're busy taking that flight back and forth,

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Speaker 2: four flights a weekend, four flights a weekend.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, interesting to talk about our first jobs because

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Speaker 1: we're doing the same thing right now and watching our

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Speaker 1: first shows. Wild, right, what I have so many questions? Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: they're all running through my head at rapid fire, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, which one do I pick? What is it like?

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Speaker 1: Because you've talked about this a little bit, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now?

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Speaker 1: How ahead of its time the show was?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: What do you what do you see? What do you

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Speaker 1: pick up on? How does it feel to watch it?

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Speaker 1: You know for the two of you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild.

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Speaker 1: What are you realizing about this thing that you that

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Speaker 1: you made?

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Speaker 2: First of all, it's so relieved and proud to know

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Speaker 2: that something we made, you know, we shut the pilot

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Speaker 2: nineteen years ago, something that we did all the way

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Speaker 2: back then was on the right side of history for

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Speaker 2: the most part. I mean, there's a few things that

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Speaker 2: are you know, like that are It's one of those

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Speaker 2: shows that like we we went there with race stuff,

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Speaker 2: we went there with queer stuff. And when something was

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Speaker 2: you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic,

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Speaker 2: that was that was on the bat, that was that

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Speaker 2: was bad in the show. So even though we would

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Speaker 2: just we would occasionally go there, it was bad. Like

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Speaker 2: if I was racist on the show, if my character

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Speaker 2: was racist, he got his come up and by the

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Speaker 2: end and he was like that. So we were never

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Speaker 2: doing it just for the sake of doing it, whereas

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Speaker 2: if you watch some shows, like especially like the nineties,

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Speaker 2: everything is gay, panic, horrible, everything horrible. It's crazy like

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Speaker 2: are we okay?

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Speaker 1: Were people okay? No, you're so scared of us?

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Speaker 2: What are you so scared of? And why is this

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Speaker 2: so funny? And also the funny racism, Like there was

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Speaker 2: that period where we were like it was all just

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Speaker 2: funny to be racist, and it was like, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't mean it, I being you know, I'm just

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Speaker 2: it's a I mean affable, you know, It's like, no,

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Speaker 2: that's that's actually not funny. That's not funny, and we

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Speaker 2: and we all thought it was okay to laugh at

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Speaker 2: those things. I guess so that it's a relief to rewatch,

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Speaker 2: like we Betty, And when those things do come up,

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Speaker 2: they're not they're bad. They're like, that's not a good thing.

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Speaker 1: They're observed as a bad thing. Yes, we'll be back

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Speaker 1: in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think

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Speaker 1: you have to take it's almost like a math equation

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Speaker 1: to me, you have to sort of analyze what was

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Speaker 1: transferm at the time and how it had to be done.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that there was a trans character on

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Speaker 1: Ugly Buddy was a very huge and the fact, by

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Speaker 1: the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in

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Speaker 1: the world played that trans character. Actually, I think at

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Speaker 1: the time, given where society was, probably did more in

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Speaker 1: that year for transvisibility than would have been done otherwise, because,

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Speaker 1: let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role

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Speaker 1: to an actual trans woman on a show at the time.

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Speaker 1: And so I deal with this stuff too, what rewatching

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Speaker 1: my own show where I'm like, God, I hate that

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Speaker 1: we did it. That way, But I'm glad that we

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Speaker 1: opened the door so that other people could come in

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Speaker 1: the door. I talked to Kevin McHale about this.

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Speaker 2: A lot with his character on Lee, Sure.

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Speaker 1: You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who

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Speaker 1: actually was in a wheelchair had played totally. However, his

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Speaker 1: character changed the representation for disabled characters on television and so.

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Speaker 2: And it showed disabled young disabled people who wanted to

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Speaker 2: be actors that there was a place for them that

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Speaker 2: like I could do something.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that you could even go out for a TV

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Speaker 1: show in.

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Speaker 2: The first place, and maybe be on a hit show

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Speaker 2: as a series regular on Foxy, you know that exactly

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Speaker 2: on Fox of all networks, by the way, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it's interesting to kind of have to look at

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Speaker 1: the thing for what was good and what was bad

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Speaker 1: and then divide it by the year it was on

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Speaker 1: the team.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, like a little equation.

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Speaker 1: Mark math person should make the actual equation for that

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Speaker 1: for us. It's not me, but I see it in

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Speaker 1: my head.

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Speaker 2: And when and and you know, when we would go

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Speaker 2: into issues with when we would like have storylines about

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Speaker 2: alexis mean on Ugly Betty her father was not accepting

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Speaker 2: and he was a bad man and he ended up dying.

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Speaker 2: You know, like that was like, that's love that that's what. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale, who

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Speaker 2: was not a bad man, but the character was a

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Speaker 2: bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman

401
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Speaker 2: character that played Alexis Claire Meade. She was a complicated character,

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Speaker 2: but she loved her daughter and she was good and

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Speaker 2: she lived. You know, it's like that, and it was

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Speaker 2: jud Light. So here we have gay icon you know,

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Speaker 2: who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they

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Speaker 2: bring her in to support her trans daughter and that's

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Speaker 2: like so you know, it was way ahead of its time,

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Speaker 2: and it's so nice to watch it and not be

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Speaker 2: cringey and a relief.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we were on the CW. We have some cringe.

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Speaker 1: There's some things that I go on all right, But

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Speaker 1: then I you know, I also have the experience where

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Speaker 1: sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation

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Speaker 1: or do a storyline and I'm like, damn, I actually

415
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Speaker 1: get why this was such a big deal. And it's

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Speaker 1: cool to get to become your own fan. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have that. That's so nice.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, I was too busy learning because I'd never

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Speaker 2: done anything, and so I would watch. This has come

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Speaker 2: up a lot on our show too. It's like I

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Speaker 2: remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember

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Speaker 2: a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm

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Speaker 2: becoming a fan of like the other actors on the show.

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Speaker 2: I slept on you, but like, but I was so

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Speaker 2: focused on getting my own stuff right and then rewatching

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Speaker 2: my scenes to learn because I didn't know anything about

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Speaker 2: being on camera, and so I would watch and learn

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Speaker 2: and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me,

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Speaker 2: or I need to pay more attention when the camera

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Speaker 2: is there. I used to do this thing. This is

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Speaker 2: so silly, you know how, And so like you know how,

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Speaker 2: like like like like this, there's these two cameras on

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Speaker 2: this when they'll do coverage, so there's a camera, say

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Speaker 2: over your scene partner's left shoulder, and then another scene

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Speaker 2: or another another setup that put the camera between us

436
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: on the other side and I. For the first few seasons,

437
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: or maybe the first season or everybody, I would cheat

438
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: towards wherever the camera was, Like I was on stage,

439
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,120
Speaker 2: you know, like on stage you cheat to the audience,

440
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: And so I saw I would see myself on TV

441
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, none of this matches.

442
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're like, why am I jumping around?

443
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 2: It's so embarrassing. I would like, yes, I was like,

444
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,479
Speaker 2: why am I? Like my my face is towards the

445
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 2: camera no matter where it is. And now I know,

446
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,960
Speaker 2: like you can't. You just can't do that. You have

447
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 2: to be real right and the camera's going to get you.

448
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: The camera knows. The camera's doing its job. You don't

449
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 2: know how to do it for it. It's really, I know,

450
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,479
Speaker 2: it's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested

451
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 2: to hear what you think, because, like you know, sometimes

452
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: you think I want to forget the cameras there. I

453
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 2: want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like,

454
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,400
Speaker 2: oh no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who is on shrinking

455
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 2: his relationship with the camera is is more important than anything.

456
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: It's it's he's always talking to the camera. He talks

457
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: to the camera crew more than any of us, and

458
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: he's so he knows that camera as good as anyone

459
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: on the set. Oh I love it, and it's really

460
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: I learned so much watching the way that he deals

461
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,719
Speaker 2: with the camera. Oh I love that because like, on

462
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 2: the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like

463
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important.

464
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 2: You have to love the camera.

465
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be

466
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: as good at it as he is. You know, I'm

467
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: not a person who necessarily understands what lens worth throwing up.

468
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,880
Speaker 1: I know, if we're going wide or long, sure, that's

469
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,199
Speaker 1: kind of it. What I have come to discover, And

470
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: I do spend a lot of I spend a lot

471
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 1: of time with my camera crews, and I spend a

472
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: lot of time with my props department. M My favorite

473
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance.

474
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 1: And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really

475
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there.

476
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: It's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance

477
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,479
Speaker 1: becomes something I don't even it's it's muscle memory. And

478
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: so what I'm thinking about particularly, I have this movie

479
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of

480
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: a book. So you know, I was like really geeked

481
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: about that. We filmed in this really sort of the

482
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: house itself felt like a set. It was very austere

483
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: and sterile and modern and it but a location.

484
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: It was like a real location.

485
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: We were out in Utah. It really lent a certain

486
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: quality to the movie. And the director who we were

487
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: working with is a big el mold of our fan,

488
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: and we watched all these sequences of things that he

489
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you

490
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: get to know the house following my character. It Yes,

491
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: she comes home and she's doing these things and so

492
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: all the stuff, you know, where you put your bag

493
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: and where you toss your keys, and what you're doing.

494
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: And I want to come in with flowers because I

495
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: do this every Tuesday, and I go to get a

496
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: vaz And we did all of these things, and the

497
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 1: camera it was this one shot that had to move

498
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: all through you know, driveway up the thing in the

499
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: front door, into the living room which has art sculptures

500
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 1: in it, and then around the dining table into the

501
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: kitchen and all this stuff. And we had just gotten

502
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: everyone's photos and all the child's photos and family photos,

503
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: you know set and I remember at one point when

504
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: we were figuring out what I was going to be doing,

505
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: where the things were going to be going, saying to

506
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 1: the director and the camera operator who's on the study,

507
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: which for our friends at home, it's like this giant

508
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: it almost looks like a kevlar vest. Yeah yeah, and

509
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 1: it has this arm on it and the camera floats

510
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 1: around in the hands of the operator. And I looked

511
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing

512
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: and then doing this thing, and do you want me

513
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 1: to throw a glance to one of the foot photos

514
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: so you can go off me and track across these

515
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: and then I can reach into frame to grab the

516
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen.

517
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: And my and my camera operator and my director look

518
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: at each other and they go, don't you love a

519
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: technical act? And I was like, we're dancing, We're dancing,

520
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: and it was this great way for it, so cool thing,

521
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: And that's something I realized I've learned in all the

522
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: years since we were little babies on our first set,

523
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 1: right right then, I feel like I'm in on it.

524
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: And then I love.

525
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: Being aw you directed, right, Yeah, yeah, I like it. Yeah,

526
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: I bet, I bet you're good at that. That's such

527
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: an interesting because that was something I learned, like a

528
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: motivated pan you know, like you help that you help

529
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 2: them tell the story by looking. It's a very interesting

530
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 2: these did say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they

531
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 2: didn't know where to cut, they'd say, cut to America.

532
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: Like if they didn't know how to figure out what

533
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 2: the story was, what's the story in this moment the

534
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America. She'll tell

535
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: the story. And there is something about that, like central character,

536
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: the one with the you know, the character with the

537
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,719
Speaker 2: problem or the one who's trying to solve the problem.

538
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: If it's a good actor, and she was a very

539
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 2: very good actor, you could always cut to her and

540
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: she would have exactly the right emotion on her face

541
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: to help tell the story. I love, I know. It's

542
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: it's there's nothing nothing feels better than when someone who's

543
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: not an actor on a set says, you're helping me.

544
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: It's just like such a you know when when a

545
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: writer says it or the director says it. It's just

546
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: like because because we know what we can do, we

547
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: know what we're we know our thing, but we don't

548
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: always know their things. And and uh and and it's

549
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 2: the dance. It's really it's really cool. It's a really

550
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: like it's a really exciting thing because I also think

551
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: what's cool about being on a set is on a

552
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 2: movie set, are a TV set, is people come from

553
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: all walks of life, yes, to end up doing uh production,

554
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 2: and you know, maybe there's like a few paths that

555
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: people are chasing. Uh. You know, people go to Hollywood

556
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to

557
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 2: be an ad or or you know, like a gaffer.

558
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: They might want to be a DP, and they are

559
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: working their way towards that, but they come from all

560
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 2: walks of life and uh, and they focus specifically on

561
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: their lane. And so there's there's all these experts. Everyone's

562
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 2: kind of an expert, and it's really yeah, it's there's

563
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: so much to learn and and everyone's so different and

564
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: so you really get like difference in the theater. It's

565
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: I guess in the theater people are more alike. Everyone

566
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: kind of like did plays in high school and and

567
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 2: now maybe they're stage manager or they're lighting designers or

568
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: the directors. But we all kind of came from the

569
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: same stuff. And that's also cool. That's also really fun.

570
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: And certainly in a musical you end up with musicians

571
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: and dancers and things like that, But on a film set,

572
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: you just never know where someone came from and what

573
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: they how they ended up there.

574
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean when you start, you have your first

575
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: meeting with a UPM or a line producer, and you're like,

576
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: what do you do? You do the Excel spreadsheets, what

577
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: you know? And then there's someone who's just purely creative,

578
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, the special effects makeup person, and you're like,

579
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: it's so weird that you guys are great friends and

580
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: you do this job together. But yeah, you're right, they

581
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: don't speak the same language at all. Did because you,

582
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: obviously and Becky are so close and you do the

583
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: rewatch show together still ugly, which I find to be hilarious.

584
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: That's off to you. How did you guys decide to

585
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 1: come back to it to do a podcast? And is

586
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: it because you have just been such great friends that

587
00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: it felt like it made sense?

588
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: Yes, it felt inevitable. We have remained friends all these

589
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 2: years we did. We've done lots of things outside of

590
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: our time on agly Betty. When we did the show,

591
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: they spun us off to a web series. We had

592
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: a web series, Oh Crazy, and we had a podcast. Actually,

593
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: ABC came to us and they were like, in the

594
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 2: first of its time. We are venturing into the soundscape

595
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 2: and we would like to do a podcast, and they like,

596
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: we're like, what's a podcast? You know, it's like twenty

597
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: eighteen or two thousand and eight, what's a podcast? And

598
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: there were some other shows that had podcasts, but it

599
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: was like, you know, a marketing person would run it,

600
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: and they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like

601
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: to do it. And we did an episode for every episode,

602
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: and we interviewed the whole cast, and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah,

603
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: I was crazy, and it was on ABC dot Com

604
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: and we would do it on our lunch breaks. They

605
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 2: would bring micro ones to our dressing rooms and we

606
00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable

607
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: that we would have eventually come back to it. But yes,

608
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: we stayed friends all these years. We did a cabaret

609
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: act together, we did a musical once. We did have

610
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: a succeed in business on we were trying together. We

611
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: did we were supposed to do a pilot that got

612
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: canned because of the pandemic. We were literally like I

613
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: was literally like had a parking spot at Warner Brothers.

614
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 2: We were about to shoot this some hilarious multi camera

615
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 2: show where we played siblings, and then the pandemic happened,

616
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 2: and you know, it got pushed out and which is

617
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 2: totally understandable. And then when when then we saw people

618
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: were doing rewatch podcasts. I was actually watching The Sopranos

619
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: for the first time ever, which is the greatest show

620
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: ever read of. Oh my god, I'm just a creator

621
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 2: and I there's two rewatch podcasts from cast members of

622
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 2: that show. And so after a particularly you know, amazing episode,

623
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: I would like go listen, and I was like, this

624
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: is really fun. We should be doing this. And of

625
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 2: course Zach Braff does Zach Braff and Donald Fason have

626
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: their Scrubs rewatch podcast, yeah, which is so good. And

627
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: I was a guest because Zach directs Shrinking. He's one

628
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: of our directors on Shrinking, and he's brilliant and their show,

629
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: they got through all the episodes and now it's just

630
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: a show. Now it's just a podcast, and I was like,

631
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: that is so and it was so fun to be

632
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: on and I was just inspired, and so Becky and

633
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: I had talked about it over the years and then

634
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: finally just made sense. And it's hard to schedule because

635
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix and

636
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm shooting Shrinking. But but it's really special and really

637
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 2: fun to do, and we're getting to reconnect with our

638
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: old friends and watch the show. But it definitely and

639
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: the other thing that we didn't expect when we did

640
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: the first podcast was that people would send us questions.

641
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: I'm sure this happens to you too. Yeah, people would

642
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: ask for advice, and so it became kind of they

643
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: would like somehow, for some reason, Becky and I, who

644
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: were playing evil characters on the show, were somehow counselors

645
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: in their heads to these fans of the show. And

646
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: it still happens. We still, you know, this round of

647
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff.

648
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: And obviously we're not like experts, but Becky's really clever

649
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: and we get we give some advice and give her

650
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: very advice. It's very fun.

651
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though,

652
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: what people really want is they just want an opinion

653
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: from a friend. And then we've played a character who

654
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 1: feels like a friend to someone You are in that character, Psyche.

655
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very sweet and in a way.

656
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: I did this recently was I did an episode of

657
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler's podcast and she takes callers, and I'm also like, look,

658
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't have a degree, you know, a

659
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: health degree, but like I've certainly spent enough money in

660
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts, you know,

661
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice

662
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: to get advice, not from necessarily an expert, just another

663
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: human who's trying to figure it.

664
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: Out, or an actual friend, you know, like a like

665
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 2: a friend in your head is sometimes easier, you know,

666
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: and sometimes when somebody's just getting the information face value,

667
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: it's I heard somebody say you want your friends to

668
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: listen and your therapist to tell you what to do,

669
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 2: and it's always the opposite. Yes, yes, And so like

670
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: maybe there's something about, you know, the friend in your

671
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 2: head that's in between.

672
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you do you think there's an added element

673
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 1: of that because shrinking centers around yeah, therapy, Like, do

674
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: the interactions you have with people because of the text

675
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: of the show feel like they've changed?

676
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 2: Well, because my character is it's so funny. That's a

677
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 2: very funny question actually, because we I meet a lot

678
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: of therapists who watched the show now, and this so

679
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 2: my character on the show in this In the first season,

680
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: he was this very like plucky, happy, go lucky guy,

681
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: and he had this mantra, everything goes my way, and

682
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: I knew when I read the first episodes. I was like, Okay, well,

683
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 2: this is obviously upfront. I mean, obviously this isn't you know.

684
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 2: He's just saying this, This isn't true. He doesn't really

685
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it

686
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: can't be true. And I can tell already that eventually

687
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: we're going to peel away the layers and find a

688
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: real person underneath. It's not just like this. And then

689
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: in the second season, and they did. And I had

690
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 2: some amazing stuff in the first season, and then the

691
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: second season even better stuff. And at one point in

692
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 2: the second season, I'm going to fight with Jason Siegl's

693
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: character and I'm making something about myself and he was like,

694
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: are you really so much of a narcissist that you

695
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy,

696
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,760
Speaker 2: that's what narcissism is, having the courage to put yourself

697
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is.

698
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's

699
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: so great. Yeah. And then and then occasionally people would say,

700
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: you know this guy's like Bill would be like, and

701
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: then you know, we keep we make sure we do

702
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: this line, but also say something else, you know, say

703
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: something you know that a narcissist would say in this moment.

704
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, okay, oh and interesting. And

705
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: then I watched the second season and I started to realize,

706
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And

707
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: then I met a therapist who watches the show and

708
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: she was like, I love the show and I love

709
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And

710
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: she goes, he's such a narcissist, just like almost accusatory,

711
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: and I'm like this And then I was like, I've

712
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 2: been playing a narcissist without realizing it, and and I thought,

713
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: I was like this is It was fascinating because you know,

714
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: a narcissist doesn't know there, they don't know they're a narcissist,

715
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 2: and you actually you can't really tell them because that

716
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: they won't really hear it and they'll just deflect it.

717
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I

718
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: am in real life a narcissist and I would never

719
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: know it. It's so weird. It's like really heady to

720
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 2: think about. Yeah, but this character or not. But that's

721
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: all anyone talks about and said. They're like always talking

722
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 2: about how he's a narcissist. I'm like, oh my god,

723
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: I've been playing a little bit. But also I'm kind

724
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 2: of proud of it, like I've been doing it right.

725
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got into.

726
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: It right and not judging him and and it turns

727
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: out it works. But that was something I you know,

728
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 2: in drama school, I learned we would play villains, you know,

729
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: doing Richard the Third and they're like, we're like, but

730
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: this guy's terrible, and he says he's terrible. How am

731
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: I supposed to play this? And they're like, you can't

732
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: judge your characters. And so that was like one of

733
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: those fundamental things that I learned, don't judge your characters,

734
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: look at what you know, get inside of them and

735
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 2: and figure out why they do what they do and

736
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 2: all that, Ye, what makes them to Yeah, And the

737
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: writing is so good on shrinking that I just play

738
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: the role, you know, I just I just see what's there.

739
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: And I'm like, Okay, this is when I think this

740
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: is the I'll be damned, I'm playing a narcissist all

741
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 2: this time.

742
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: But here's what I'll tell you, And this is what

743
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: I think is cool, because you not that you'll be shocked.

744
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: I love to ask my therapist a million questions about

745
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: how he does his job, and he's like, you're paying

746
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: me to ask me about and I'm like, yeah, I

747
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: have a question here, because you know, all the all

748
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: the articles now are about narcissism, and you know, when

749
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: you're trying to.

750
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 2: I can't imagine why we're all talking about, right.

751
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: No idea when you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself

752
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: from one. You do a lot of research saying this

753
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 1: for a friend, obviously, right, right, right, But I was like,

754
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: how how do people know and how do you deal

755
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: with it and how you know? Like is there never

756
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: a question for someone who has this thing of like

757
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes,

758
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: if you've ever asked yourself if you're a narcissist, you're not?

759
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: Oh and i'ment all right, he said they would never

760
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: they would, you know, and it was this really funny thing.

761
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: And so maybe that's part of it for you, is

762
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: to realize, as you said, the writing is so good

763
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 1: that you're getting into the head of this person, and

764
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:29,399
Speaker 1: because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are

765
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: playing him as he's written. But even the fact that

766
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 1: you're asking the question means, don't worry, You're okay, You're

767
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: not too close to It's funny.

768
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 2: That's so funny. It's very interesting. Have you ever this

769
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: is a this is maybe a different podcast, but no, yeah,

770
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: kind of that. There's that thing like a narcissist, when

771
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become

772
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 2: kind of like anti narcissist, where instead of making everything

773
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: about themselves, they assume nothing is about them.

774
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: Right, they become almost disembodied. Yes, yes, it's fascinating interesting.

775
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 2: It's this like consequence of being tied to a narcissism

776
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs.

777
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: And it's actually like the like the opposite, and it's

778
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: it's still kind of narcissism, but it's like instead of

779
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: it all being like me, me, me, me me. It's

780
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: like no one, no one knows, you know, like, yes,

781
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: don't look at me, don't look at me, don't y yeah,

782
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: yeah I know.

783
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this

784
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: show possible. I mean, listen, it's it's life stuff, right.

785
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,439
Speaker 1: Our jobs are so cool and so crazy. How much

786
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: fun to go to work and have everything be so

787
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: funny And you're dealing with humor in the lens of

788
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not

789
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: lost on me that the person I know you to

790
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: be has found this job in this moment, you know

791
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: that you are. You're gathering an audience in such a cool,

792
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people,

793
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, being human to each other. What what does

794
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: it sort of feel like to have this now? Because

795
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 1: you have been an advocate for so long, you have

796
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: stood up for the community for so long, you have

797
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,240
Speaker 1: exemplified queer joy for so long in theater in the

798
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: pride plays in your life and your love and your

799
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: relationship and your work. Like and we are in a

800
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: really weird time where so much of the progress we

801
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: feels like it's being so violently erased, like, how are

802
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto

803
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: your joy?

804
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: It's so tiring, so exhausting. Yeah, well, I am heartened

805
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: by people that, you know, back in the day, even

806
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 2: when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who

807
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: were out of the closet.

808
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: Well especially not Yeah, no, you're right, I was about

809
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: to say, especially not a lot of men, but really

810
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: just not a lot of people.

811
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean more women, but not a lot of people.

812
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: And and back then you still had to like make

813
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 2: a whole thing about it, even when it was obvious

814
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 2: that you know, you know, like nobody was surprised when

815
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: I came out, but you still kind of had to

816
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 2: because they were asking. I mean, I remember one of

817
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: my first ever red carpets for Ugly Betty. This guy

818
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 2: I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet, and this guy

819
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: on a red carpet said so are you out and

820
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: put a microphone in my face? And I was so

821
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: did exactly that I made exactly the face you just made,

822
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 2: like what what that? That question was so unfair. It's

823
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 2: just not and I sort of hemden had and said, oh, well,

824
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: I'm I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my

825
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: That was my line that day. And the guy printed

826
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: his question and my response and he he described my response,

827
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 2: so it was in print. I don't remember what what

828
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: the publication was, but he wrote my response like that.

829
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: I harumphed hemden had yes and then said, I don't

830
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: talk about my sexuality, which is just like you know,

831
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 2: and you you, I know you've been there too. There's

832
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: sometimes you get asked a question in an interview and

833
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: you can tell there they've already decided what they're going

834
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: to write. It doesn't really matter what you say. They've

835
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 2: already figured out what they're going to write. And especially

836
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: when you know, especially then, and especially when it came

837
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: to things like that, and so like, on the one hand,

838
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,319
Speaker 2: it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to

839
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: know that there's this huge community of queer people in media.

840
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: The GLAD Awards was like, gosh, was that that came

841
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: at the perfect time because we are being bombarded and

842
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: especially you know since January of this year, like it's

843
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: just NonStop, relentless. We have to we all have to

844
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 2: stay so on top of things. And everybody went after

845
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: I mean everybody I know wanted to like go on

846
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: a news diet and did some of them went on

847
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 2: the news fast and were just like can't you have

848
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: to sort of keep up with things, And it's just

849
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 2: relent it's relentless. But to go into a room like

850
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 2: the GLAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people

851
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 2: who've done the work and live there, live there truths,

852
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: and and and not not only that, but they ad

853
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: you know, they they are they are all all everyone

854
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: in that room is an advocate. That was That was

855
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: very special and that helped. That was one of those

856
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: like healing, wonderful moments. And you know, and I've I've

857
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: felt it on in a few different events that I've

858
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: been host of or MC of, and and there is

859
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on,

860
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: but you also are allowed to We're all, I think

861
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate

862
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: what is working. And that was the thing about the

863
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: GLAD Awards that I kept going back to when we

864
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: did that, like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening

865
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 2: and and all of our stuff is in the dumpster,

866
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: All of our belongings are in the dumpster.

867
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: Every precious to us.

868
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 2: Yes, is in the dumpster, but there's also great work

869
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:02,240
Speaker 2: being done and constantly, and here's proof, here's here's here's

870
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 2: millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that

871
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of great work happening and a

872
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of we are moving the needle

873
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 2: in so many ways.

874
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. Though, when you said

875
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: it's just so exhausting, Yeah, it's exhausting to have to

876
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: put out the same fire over and over again. Like

877
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: we've done this, We've put it out. Can we not

878
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are

879
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: you trying to burn people?

880
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 2: Right?

881
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: You know? And the sort of cognitive dissonance of it.

882
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: They want to come for our community in such a way,

883
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: and I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y'all,

884
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: Like you go clean up your side of the street.

885
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,439
Speaker 1: We're set here. Yeah, you know, I cracked a joke

886
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: about it recently where I was like, none of y'all

887
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: have you know, none of y'all have ever had a

888
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 1: problem of a woman like me is married to an

889
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: adulterer or white collar criminal or like what ever you

890
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: have a problem of a woman like me wants to

891
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: be married to another woman, Like, don't the girlies deserve

892
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: the chance to be just as miserable as the rest

893
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: of you, Like, come on, you know everybody's going to

894
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: pay their taxes unless you're a billionaire, go criticize them.

895
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 2: Like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me.

896
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 1: But I think you're right. I think to be in

897
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: a room where people are celebrated for exactly who they

898
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know,

899
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: and for what they're able to do despite the fire.

900
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,439
Speaker 2: Yes, right, that's that part.

901
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,839
Speaker 1: It's a really big deal. And it was also just

902
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 1: the most fun to watch you crush and host, and

903
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: I mean the split, the split Glinda and alphaba alp

904
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: absolutely did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh, I screamed,

905
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: and I was like, shut up, Soviia on stage. All

906
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 1: the moments were crushed.

907
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: I've hosted enough now to know that, uh, fashion is

908
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 2: your friend. When you're hosting something, it does have to

909
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 2: work for you because we've all watched award shows where

910
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes.

911
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: And if you come out looking great, that's your first

912
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: joke in the bag. You look great. I don't need

913
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:25,759
Speaker 2: I don't need to get a laugh. Now I look great.

914
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 2: The work is done. So shout out to Christian Seriano

915
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: who designed that look, made that thing.

916
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: Your carpet fit was Charles Harbuson.

917
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: When oh wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist.

918
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 2: I had seven looks that night.

919
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: You crushed.

920
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: It was really fun.

921
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: I wanted all of it. It's like, where did that

922
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: suit also come? Fringe, give it to me?

923
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: That one so good? And then oh yeah it was.

924
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: It was a really special night and so many, so many,

925
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: so many cool people. And also you know you've been

926
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: at that venue before backstage for other I mean I've

927
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 2: been lots of different award shows. That backstage is so tiny,

928
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,280
Speaker 2: the room is not big, and it can get tense

929
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: and awkward back there, and like people not wanting to

930
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: associate or not want you know, it's like this these

931
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 2: people's these people's people are keeping them away from these

932
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: people's people, and like that kind of thing that happens

933
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: backstage is weird, weird, creepy show busy things. Not at

934
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: the Clout Awards, it's a party. At the Cloud Awards,

935
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,399
Speaker 2: it was and everyone was bigger because the everyone's looks

936
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: were bigger, so there was even less space and more

937
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: skin and it was and no tension backstage at all.

938
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: I was back there the whole night. There was no tension.

939
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 2: We were cramped, it was hot, but we loved it

940
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,879
Speaker 2: was so we loved being there. Everyone loved being there

941
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 2: and was like supporting. And I think it was because

942
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 2: we all knew we'd done the work. Nobody was worried.

943
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: There was no like stress. It was no lick did

944
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: I did I? It was all, oh, we did? You

945
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 2: did I did? We've all all done the work. Everyone did,

946
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 2: yeah and have and now we can we can you

947
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: know we can. We can handle this. And that's something

948
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 2: to say. There's something like I feel that way about

949
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:19,959
Speaker 2: really all the minority groups, like like everyone's everyone's had

950
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: to deal with this already. So this new round of

951
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: hate it feels different. It definitely this, this this administration

952
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: feels different than the previous administration or his first administration,

953
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: I should say. But even then, we've been through this.

954
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 2: We know hate. We faced hate, yeah, even if it

955
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 2: wasn't head on. We know what hate is meant for us,

956
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 2: and we are already stronger for we already have like

957
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,280
Speaker 2: the thick skins. You're the one's without the thick skins.

958
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, well, I think especially because we've we've

959
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,280
Speaker 1: been through this for so long. I mean I think about,

960
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 1: you know, ten years ago, us being at you know,

961
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: Pride Marches. I think about growing up going to them

962
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: with my family, you know, we know the playbook now,

963
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: and I think the some of the sadness of the

964
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,720
Speaker 1: you know, these these seeds they've sown, like the lies

965
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: have come home to roosts. And it's like every accusation

966
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,760
Speaker 1: you make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting

967
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: something you've done that you want people to think we've done.

968
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: Because what your spiritual advisor is going to go to

969
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: prison for assaulting a twelve year old Yes, mister president,

970
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: like you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein, Like bro, I

971
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: hate to break it to you, guys, but like the

972
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: receipts are out right and it's not us. And it's

973
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: why I love how viral that that hashtag not a

974
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 1: drag queen keeps going for years because they're like, oh look,

975
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: another one still has never been a drag queen. Guys.

976
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: We're fun, y'all, y'all. Y'all need to you need to

977
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: clean house on your end of the things. We will

978
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: just be at the gladderwards by Michael, You're believe forever.

979
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,839
Speaker 2: And also that you think about like you really think

980
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 2: that we we're just that we're doing this because of you.

981
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,200
Speaker 2: You think that we we we we are queer because

982
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 2: of you, that this has anything to do with don't

983
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: you realize that we they're narcissists. Well, that's that's right exactly.

984
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 2: I mean, they think it's all about them. It's it's

985
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: all about this is our thing, this is this is

986
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: about us, this is who we are, and this is

987
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 2: and we did this because we didn't have a choice,

988
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 2: because we are this.

989
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of them forget and again

990
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right,

991
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: Like the people who ban books are never on the

992
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 1: right side of history, to be clear, But they're trying

993
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: to ban all of the books because they don't want

994
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: people to know that pride started as a protest right,

995
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: that that the fabulousness was born of struggle, that it

996
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: was literally radical to be seen in public as you are.

997
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: So are people chose to be seen in the best

998
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could

999
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: get killed for it, right, And if people don't know that,

1000
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: they don't understand how actually revolutionary it can be to

1001
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: me yourself.

1002
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: If they don't know that, and if they don't like

1003
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: do the work to learn that, then they just believe

1004
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 2: whatever someone tells them, and they say that it's bad.

1005
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then they also prot then no one cares

1006
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: what you're sleeping with, and like, well, y'all are the

1007
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: ones asking people live on camera on red carpets.

1008
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: I know, I know, trying to.

1009
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 1: Volunteer that information you're asking.

1010
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a

1011
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 2: tweet of mine or an expost of mine that they

1012
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 2: said something like basically to the tune of don't rub

1013
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,439
Speaker 2: it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming

1014
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: out and saying I'm straight.

1015
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 1: Like have you ever seen a movie?

1016
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? And almost like you do you know what a

1017
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: rom com is. You're also disproving both of your points

1018
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: with this very message. You're asking me to be like you, yeah,

1019
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 2: and you're claiming your straightness.

1020
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: Yes.

1021
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess it's so.

1022
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: When people really were bombarding me when I started dating

1023
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: my partner, and they were like, well, what are you?

1024
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: How do you identify? What is the word? And I

1025
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 1: was like, has no one paid attention to any of

1026
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: the beautiful women I have kissed on both film and

1027
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: Elias for the last twenty years. No one's been paying attention,

1028
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: you know. And then I loved that. Meant much of

1029
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: the lesbian internet was like, we all knew you weren't

1030
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: just acting on easy. I was like, thank you, ladies, thank.

1031
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: You for seeing me.

1032
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 1: This is always where I have been seen.

1033
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: They were happy to claim they were very happy, welcome you.

1034
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: So happy to officially be home though it's been home

1035
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: for so long, when to be seen is so special?

1036
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: And I had like a very you know, I get

1037
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: very emotional when people that I love are happy and

1038
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: watching you win the critics choice ward, I was like, y,

1039
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 1: I'm just so amped for you.

1040
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 2: Thank you?

1041
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: Was it because you love the show and because you

1042
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: love the material and and you know the whole gang

1043
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:14,439
Speaker 1: that puts it together and it's it's the critics choice.

1044
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: It's like, to me, it feels as cool as maybe sag.

1045
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: It really does feel like peers, right? Was it? Was

1046
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: that a really special one?

1047
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? And interesting That's an interesting comparison because obviously SAG

1048
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: Awards is voted on by actors. Yeah, so that's you know,

1049
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 2: that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics,

1050
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 2: critics choice. The critics they're watching everything, that's it. They

1051
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: see everything but the keenest eye.

1052
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:44,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah.

1053
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 2: And to think that they watched what I did and

1054
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: said we like that. I mean obviously, like you know,

1055
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: we're all conditioned to think reviews don't matter, and it's

1056
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 2: and it's and of course sometimes it's true and sometimes

1057
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 2: it's not. But like it is part of the industry.

1058
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 2: I mean it is. Any art will eventually be dissected

1059
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 2: and criticized, good and good or bad, and so like

1060
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,240
Speaker 2: it is, it is part. It is part of the industry.

1061
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: We all have to accept it, whether you read reviews

1062
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 2: or not. I don't actually read reviews. Well you're not

1063
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 2: trying to make yourself crazy, right, Well yeah, because then

1064
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, well do I do what they want

1065
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: me to do? Or do I do what they want

1066
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 2: me to do or do what I think I should do?

1067
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 2: And but to know they're watching and smelling when I

1068
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: stepped in that was like really, really gratifying and super surprising.

1069
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 2: I mean I wasn't. I was not. I didn't know

1070
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,839
Speaker 2: it just you know. My publicist texted me that day

1071
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 2: and she said, you just got nominated for a Critics

1072
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 2: Choice Award. And I was like, what what that's today?

1073
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 2: This is happening. I had no idea. And then we

1074
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: went and my sister was my date. And before it

1075
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 2: was the night before the Critics Choice posted some video

1076
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 2: of you know, like we're getting the room ready, and

1077
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 2: it was like like quick cuts of the seats with

1078
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,760
Speaker 2: the pictures of the actors, you know, home board exactly,

1079
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,279
Speaker 2: and I was one of them. And I was like,

1080
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 2: whoa alongside big stars, Like it was like Angelina Jelle

1081
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: and to me Moore and Michael Ury. And I was like,

1082
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 2: what is happening? And that was the first moment I

1083
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 2: was like whoa, I'm in the I'm in the video. Hey.

1084
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: And then we sat down and my sister was like,

1085
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 2: are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm

1086
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 2: not nervus. I'm not going to win. This is just

1087
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 2: that we're just gonna have a lovely night. I'm not

1088
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: gonna win, and she's like, I think you might, and

1089
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 2: that was when I was like, whoa, Laura thinks I

1090
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 2: might and she doesn't know anything. If you think I'm might,

1091
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: if she thinks I'm might, truly yes and uh. And

1092
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 2: it reminded me actually have another moment when my when

1093
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 2: my mother said, my because it's so easy to talk

1094
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 2: yourself out of something. Yeah, it's so so easy. And

1095
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,000
Speaker 2: when I was when I was in community college, I

1096
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 2: went to community college for a year out of high school,

1097
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 2: becau I had terrible grades and and I and I

1098
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: was trying. I was like change. I was sort of

1099
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: like going through a transition. I thought I wanted to

1100
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 2: be a drama teacher. And then I was like, maybe

1101
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:10,920
Speaker 2: I'm good at acting, maybe I could be an actor,

1102
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 2: and and I was like maybe ya ya YadA. But

1103
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 2: then I had a teacher at this community college urged

1104
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: me to audition for Juilliard. And I was like, Okay,

1105
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: I'll do whatever you say. I'll do whatever you think.

1106
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 2: But I'm perfectly happy at my community college and this

1107
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: is this is what I want to do. And my

1108
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 2: parents were like, how are we going to pay for Juilliard?

1109
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 2: It's so expensive, we don't have that kind of money.

1110
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 2: And I was like guys, I'm not going to get in.

1111
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 2: I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a

1112
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 2: good experience. And my mom goes, I think you might.

1113
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: And it was those two I'll never forget. Those two

1114
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 2: moments were really I talked myself out of a possibility

1115
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: both of those times, and my family kind of showed me.

1116
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:01,480
Speaker 2: And it, I mean obviously, like one, by the time

1117
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 2: they said my name of the Critic's Choice Awards, the

1118
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: voting had been done, and it was nothing I could do.

1119
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I you know, there's nothing you can really do.

1120
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 2: But it's certainly when I auditioned for Juilliard with my

1121
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 2: mom's confidence, that helped, you know, and my mom's not

1122
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 2: in the business. My mom doesn't know, but she watched

1123
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: me and she thought I was good, and she could

1124
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 2: see the other people were responding to me, and and

1125
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 2: she knew sometimes she knew yeah, yeah, really cool. Yeah

1126
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: it was cool. So it's uh, yeah, it's it's there's

1127
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 2: something about that, Like obviously all we do is in

1128
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 2: order to be seen. That's when we got into this.

1129
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: We wanted to like make stories and have people look

1130
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 2: at them. But yeah, and I know that people are

1131
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: seeing me, but to be seen is sort of different.

1132
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 2: They they they're saying, I get it, I get what

1133
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: you're doing and I like it. And that was that

1134
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: was very gratifying.

1135
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: That's so nice. It's such a nice valid Yeah, you know,

1136
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: it feels like a healthy, a healthy version of that too.

1137
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: Do the does the work you do with the Pride plays?

1138
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: Do you do? You also see it in that way

1139
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: as helping people be seen as helping queer stories be

1140
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: seen totally, like how did it? How did it come

1141
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: to fruition? And I sort of want the backstories you

1142
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: can tell us about how it's growing this.

1143
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, thank you, thanks for asking us. So basically,

1144
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 2: Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater a man of

1145
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 2: the theater. He's a lawyer and a producer. He and

1146
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: I became really good friends. He he was a producer

1147
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: of the solo play I did, Buyer and Seller, this

1148
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 2: play that I did for a long long time where

1149
01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 2: I played an actor working in Barber Streisand's basement. Look

1150
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 2: it up, you love it? And and we became really

1151
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 2: good friends because we were the same age and we

1152
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 2: just got along really really well, and we kept we

1153
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 2: would always talk about queer theater and the good and

1154
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:04,440
Speaker 2: the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater

1155
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 2: and a lot of queer theater, and there's no there's

1156
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 2: no like lack of queer stories in the theater. It's

1157
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 2: a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing. I

1158
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 2: kept noticing specifically that like it was me and the

1159
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: same couple of guys every time up for roles or

1160
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 2: we would follow each other like like, you know, Jesse

1161
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 2: Tyler Ferguson didn't do this, so I did it. I

1162
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: didn't do this, so Jesse did it. And it kept

1163
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 2: like and I was like, I get white people think

1164
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike.

1165
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 2: We're actually very very different, and yet we keep getting

1166
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 2: you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like,

1167
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 2: all right, well, that's like this is a problem we

1168
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: need to like and and I also know because I also, like,

1169
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: my partner is an actor, and I know lots of

1170
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: other queer actors, and and there's this there's this mid

1171
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 2: level issue which happens in I think all industries. But

1172
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: there's this thing where like you can get experience until

1173
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 2: you've had experience, and they won't give you a chance

1174
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 2: without experience, And so what Doug and I wanted to

1175
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities.

1176
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 2: And also we didn't like that queer stories were continuing

1177
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 2: to be told by straight people when there are I mean,

1178
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 2: I don't think this. I don't have a black and

1179
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: white rule about this. I don't think I don't I

1180
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 2: think that this is a fluid conversation about you know,

1181
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: who can play what. But I do think when when

1182
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:39,360
Speaker 2: a role or a story is inherently about the queerness,

1183
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: that to say a straight person is the best person

1184
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 2: for the job is silly and that happens a lot

1185
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: when you know, like you're like, well, can't we just

1186
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 2: hire the best person for the job, And it's like, yeah,

1187
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 2: you can, and you should. But like who are you seeing?

1188
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: Yes?

1189
01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 2: Who's your casting pool?

1190
01:02:58,840 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: Yes?

1191
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 2: Are you seeing all the street? Are you seeing all

1192
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 2: the gay people before you see the straight people, or

1193
01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: as you see the straight people, or are you you know,

1194
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: is your list a bunch of straight people that you know? YadA, YadA, YadA.

1195
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: So that was something that and then Doug on his

1196
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 2: side of his side of the industry, was we were,

1197
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 2: you know, like as queer plays get submitted to theaters,

1198
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 2: they end up in the same pile. So you might

1199
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 2: have a play about a forty something white cis gay

1200
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 2: man in the same pile as a story about a

1201
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 2: twenty something black trans woman, And like those two plays,

1202
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 2: those two plays shouldn't be in the same category, right,

1203
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,320
Speaker 2: Why are you putting them in the same category and

1204
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,080
Speaker 2: then choosing one over the other.

1205
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you wouldn't put a World War two

1206
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: movie in a roum com in the same pile.

1207
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 2: Thank you? Exactly, you know exactly. And so that was like,

1208
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 2: it's like gay is not. Gay is not a category? Yeah,

1209
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 2: gay is you know, that's a that's a kind of

1210
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 2: a part queer is it. So we wanted to create

1211
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 2: a festival where they could all So we set out,

1212
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 2: we were like, let's do a festival, and it was

1213
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 2: this was for World Pride when it was in New

1214
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,280
Speaker 2: York and twenty nineteen. That's when we started. Yeah, and

1215
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 2: we thought we could do like four plays, and then

1216
01:04:09,400 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 2: we were like, wait a minute, there's a lot of

1217
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 2: different kinds of people in this community and we need

1218
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 2: to try to represent all of them. And it ended

1219
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:19,120
Speaker 2: up being nineteen Wow, and I think we did a

1220
01:04:19,160 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 2: really good job. It was it was it was hard,

1221
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 2: but I think we really did, you know, tick all

1222
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 2: the boxes, so to speak, and and and and reach

1223
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 2: out to like as much of the community as we

1224
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 2: could and try to represent all of them. And so

1225
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 2: in the in the years since, we did one on

1226
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 2: Zoom during the pandemic, and we've and we've done educational

1227
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 2: initiatives through the festivals. And this year we are World

1228
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 2: Pride is in d C and we're going We're going

1229
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 2: to d C for World Pride. Pride Plays will be

1230
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 2: an association with the William Memmath Theater Company during World Pride,

1231
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 2: and we're going to do I think we're going to

1232
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:04,160
Speaker 2: do six play readings. And it should be it should

1233
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,960
Speaker 2: be great. It might be charged, it might be it

1234
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:11,680
Speaker 2: might be there might be some I don't know what

1235
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: it's going to be like. I mean, honestly don't know

1236
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 2: what it's going to be like. And things change so rapidly,

1237
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,479
Speaker 2: especially in that town. But I've worked in that town

1238
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 2: a lot in the theater. I've done a lot of

1239
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 2: theater in that town, and it is one of my

1240
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: favorite places in the world to do theater because the

1241
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: audiences are so they're so they're so intelligent, but more

1242
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 2: than that, they are they're curious, they want to learn.

1243
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 2: And because their jobs are so intense, everyone in DC

1244
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 2: has such intense jobs, they really are able to like

1245
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 2: put it away and come and focus on something new,

1246
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 2: as opposed to sometimes in New York, like you get

1247
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 2: like professional theater goers who see four four shows a

1248
01:05:54,960 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 2: week and and so it's always it's always it's always

1249
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: work for them, and you can feel them say what's different,

1250
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,919
Speaker 2: what's new? You know, in d C you can do,

1251
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 2: like in New York, if you're going to do say Hamlet,

1252
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 2: it's got to be like either definitive or brand new,

1253
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 2: some brand new version. And in d C you can

1254
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 2: just like throw Hamlet up and say this is Hamlet.

1255
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it can just be very good.

1256
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: It can just be good, yeah exactly. It doesn't have

1257
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:28,479
Speaker 2: to like reinvent Hamlet or be the best Hamlet ever,

1258
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 2: in which New York's you know.

1259
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: You've had seven times, yeah exactly.

1260
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 2: And in New York you try to do some old

1261
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 2: play and you know, if you didn't, if you didn't

1262
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 2: completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird.

1263
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 2: But but but in DC, you can do that and

1264
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: the audience wants that. So so I know the audience

1265
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,520
Speaker 2: will be great for us in d C. And I

1266
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 2: feel like it's going to be great. That's my hunch.

1267
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,439
Speaker 2: You never know what you never know. Yeah, it's gonna

1268
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 2: be a lot of queer people come into.

1269
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 1: DC, you know what, good they need it.

1270
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, And I think we have an

1271
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 2: opportunity to you know, change some change some minds.

1272
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 1: And now for our sponsors. When you look at this

1273
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 1: sort of landscape of your life and you know your

1274
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: life with Ryan and your life in work and that

1275
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 1: your advocacy and your shows and the plays and all

1276
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 1: the things, you have a lot what feels like you're

1277
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 1: work in progress.

1278
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 2: Right now, right right right the title.

1279
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: The title you knew it was coming, and then you

1280
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: forgott come full circle.

1281
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 2: There it is. It's probably actually there's there's some adulting

1282
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 2: that I think is a real work in progress. And

1283
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,880
Speaker 2: that's that's something that I'm like, you know, like when

1284
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,320
Speaker 2: I talk to people who are younger than I am,

1285
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 2: there are lots more of them now and that happens

1286
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 2: to us. Yeah, and what I see in their eyes

1287
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 2: that they're looking to me for some kind of insider advice.

1288
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 2: You know, I had somebody as somebody that I'm close

1289
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 2: with who's about thirty, asked me to mentor them, Like

1290
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 2: I actually asked me to mentor them, and I thought, oh,

1291
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:25,880
Speaker 2: I can't. Yeah, I'm gonna too. Oh I am old

1292
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 2: enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around

1293
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 2: that and and and trusting that I'm an adult and

1294
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:38,519
Speaker 2: I can do that, and I can like just off

1295
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 2: the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my

1296
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 2: own experience, because that's really hard thing, especially in our business,

1297
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,480
Speaker 2: is all you really know is what happened to you. Yeah,

1298
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 2: we've definitely've been around and we've been able to observe things,

1299
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: but I can only really, I can only really know

1300
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 2: what's happened to me and you your experience will definitely

1301
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: be different because we all have different different experiences. No

1302
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 2: two actors are the same. But it's navigating that, like

1303
01:09:09,479 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 2: the sort of the responsibility of being elder gay of

1304
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 2: being you know, like elder actor being the oldest person

1305
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:22,679
Speaker 2: in the room sometimes. And then also outside of show business,

1306
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:29,440
Speaker 2: you know, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages,

1307
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: and like those kinds of adult things nissas and nephews

1308
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 2: that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy

1309
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 2: things that I can hand back and like now they're

1310
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 2: you know, okay, this is forever. These memories are forever now,

1311
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 2: and I want to be you know, I want to

1312
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 2: be a good citizen to them. So I think the

1313
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,599
Speaker 2: work in progress is actually being you know, like I

1314
01:09:55,600 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 2: think in show business, I'm way more at ease than

1315
01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 2: I've ever been, and as a man adult, I'm figuring

1316
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 2: it out still. Yeah, I'm still figuring out like how

1317
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 2: do you be a man in this? And also our

1318
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: world keeps changing, so I'm giving myself a little bit

1319
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 2: of slack, a little bit of grace. But but yeah,

1320
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 2: what's it like to be a middle aged man.

1321
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:25,519
Speaker 1: That's a big question.

1322
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 2: Because eighty eight feels good. That feels like a good

1323
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 2: age to make it too, So that means this is

1324
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 2: the middle I loving people who are well this is mean.

1325
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: I mean you have a whole other half, that's right,

1326
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:38,959
Speaker 1: And look at what you've done in the first half.

1327
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, totally, And so much of the first

1328
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 2: half was spent as a kid, yeah, which doesn't really

1329
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 2: count exactly. I was just grissy.

1330
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:52,320
Speaker 1: It's like you get double the adult time now.

1331
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's cool.

1332
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 1: I love it.

1333
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1334
01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to do forty four more with you.

1335
01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 2: Great, let's go. Oh okay, let's sing on a beach

1336
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 2: when we're eighty eight?

1337
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,240
Speaker 1: How fast? Just not giving up?

1338
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 2: Right? I love you, I love you, Thank you. It's

1339
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 2: so nice to be THO for you. Thank you,