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Speaker 1: M h. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for Session to eleven of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll jump into the

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Speaker 1: conversation right after a word from our sponsor. What's the

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Speaker 1: song that reminds you of the best night you had

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Speaker 1: out with your girls? Are the one that brings the

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Speaker 1: tears as soon as you hear the beat drop. There's

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Speaker 1: no denying the power that music and dance has on

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Speaker 1: our mood. What did you know it can be useful

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Speaker 1: in therapy too. Today we're gonna be talking with Jennifer Sterling,

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Speaker 1: a registered dancing movement psychotherapist and holistic nutritionist. She's also

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Speaker 1: the host of the Body Full Black Girl podcast and

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Speaker 1: its founder of the Full Body Healing Project, a wellness

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Speaker 1: platform that offers body based, holistic support to black women

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Speaker 1: living with depression. Jennifer and I chatted about how she

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Speaker 1: uses dancing movement in her work as a therapist, the

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Speaker 1: concern that can be useful for, and why dance and

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Speaker 1: music are powerful in helping us heal. I'm also super

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Speaker 1: excited to share a conversation ahead with one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite musical artists, Carmen Rogers, about her experience as an

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Speaker 1: artist and her thoughts on why investing in your mental

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Speaker 1: health is important as an artist. If there's something that

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Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversations, please be sure

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Speaker 1: to share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: TVG in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today, Jennifer, Thanks for having me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to dig into this topic with you.

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Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: what dance and movement psychotherapy is and how you got

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Speaker 1: into this view of course. Yeah, Dance movement psychotherapy is

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Speaker 1: a form of psychotherapy that prioritizes the body. So when

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Speaker 1: most people think of therapy and psychotherapy, they think of

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Speaker 1: talk therapy, sitting in a chair and talking. In dance

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Speaker 1: movement psychotherapy, we start with the body, and of course

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Speaker 1: we can process verbally, but we tend to think of

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Speaker 1: the body as the priority in the brain, as the

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Speaker 1: interpreter of what's happening in the body. So in a session,

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Speaker 1: you might be invited to notice what's happening in your

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Speaker 1: body on a sensation level. You might also be invited

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Speaker 1: to notice body posture. You may also be invited to

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Speaker 1: move your body where on that spectrum, and we can

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Speaker 1: explore in a dance movement psychotherapy session. And I got

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Speaker 1: into it because I was a dancer, simple answer. I

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Speaker 1: danced all the way up through college and for me,

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Speaker 1: dance was very cathartic, and I thought, well, there has

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Speaker 1: to be a way to make this like a thing,

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Speaker 1: like a job of and like helping people with their

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Speaker 1: emotional concerns and invite movement into the process. And at

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Speaker 1: the time I didn't know that there was a whole

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Speaker 1: field called dance movement psychotherapy, but there is, and once

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Speaker 1: I discovered it, I started moving in that direction. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so cool that you were able to kind of marry

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Speaker 1: the two of the things that we're really interesting to you,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jennifer, we hear a lot about and I

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Speaker 1: think even more in recent years, around like how so

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Speaker 1: much is trapped inside our bodies, right, Like there are

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Speaker 1: often memories encoded in our body and in our brain

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Speaker 1: that we're not able to access verbally, and so movement,

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Speaker 1: you know, things like dance and movement therapy really helped

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Speaker 1: to kind of release some of that. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about the mechanisms for how that happens. Yeah, So, the

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Speaker 1: way I look at it is through the lens of

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Speaker 1: the nervous system, and when we experience something, the nerve

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Speaker 1: a system takes that in our autonomic nervous system, and

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Speaker 1: we can experience things in a place of regulation or presence.

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Speaker 1: The space of the nervous system that within Polyvagel theory

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Speaker 1: is called the ventral Vegel brand to the nervous system.

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Speaker 1: I tend to call it the window of presence where

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Speaker 1: we can experience something and be present with it. But

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Speaker 1: when the nervous system is overwhelmed, we might experience things

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Speaker 1: that set us into a fight or flight response that

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Speaker 1: like sympathetic nervous system activation, or we can experience something

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Speaker 1: that puts us in a more depressive place where we

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Speaker 1: start to shut down, and that would be the dorsal

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Speaker 1: vagel space of the nervous system. And so the nervous

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Speaker 1: system collects all of those experiences based on what came

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Speaker 1: up for us in the moment and where we ended

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Speaker 1: up within the nervous system at that time, and so

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Speaker 1: if we experience something similar, the nervous system will trigger

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Speaker 1: us to move into the response that worked for us

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Speaker 1: in the past, whether that be fight or flight or

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Speaker 1: shut down. And sometimes we don't actually know what's happening

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Speaker 1: in that process because it happens so automatically. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of times people will say, like, I don't even

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Speaker 1: know what happened. I'm just responding in this way. And

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Speaker 1: that's because the body is really wisely wired to protect us.

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Speaker 1: And so whatever has worked in the past, based on

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Speaker 1: that imprint of experience, we start to move into when

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Speaker 1: things come up in the future. And memory can be

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Speaker 1: stored in the nervous system in a very somatic way,

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Speaker 1: meaning we feel it in our bodies even if we

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Speaker 1: can't quite interpret or we don't have the visual memory

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Speaker 1: that comes up with it, especially if it was like

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Speaker 1: early childhood trauma before the age of five, where you know,

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Speaker 1: we often forget a lot of those experiences that we had.

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Speaker 1: So when we work with that in dance movement psychotherapy,

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Speaker 1: we come in with an understanding of the nervous system

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Speaker 1: and how the nervous system processes experience, and we invite

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Speaker 1: clients and patients to explore their nervous system responses, so

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Speaker 1: to really befriend their nervous system so that when those

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Speaker 1: somatic experiences come up, when they start to have sensation,

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Speaker 1: we can really curiously explore what's happening there and track

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Speaker 1: it from sensation to the brain interpreting with that sensation

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Speaker 1: means to reaction, and if we can't retrieve the visual memory,

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Speaker 1: we can still help the nervous system discharge and process

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Speaker 1: and integrate on a sensation level what has happened. And

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Speaker 1: that can be through more somatic work, which tends to

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Speaker 1: be lower kind of meditative work, or bigger movement. So

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Speaker 1: I feel, Jennifer, like I'm wondering how people would even

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Speaker 1: know that something's going on for them, because, like you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: like things often happened so quickly that I don't think

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Speaker 1: a lot of us are even able to register I'm

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Speaker 1: having a reaction to a thing, and so I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: how people even can kind of do a better job

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Speaker 1: of like engaging with like these sensations that are happening

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Speaker 1: in their body. Yeah, it takes practice. We're such a

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Speaker 1: like top down society where we have this hierarchy that

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Speaker 1: the brain is primary, and so a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: that come to see me for therapy aren't really keyed

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Speaker 1: into what's happening in their body because that's just not

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Speaker 1: the way that most of us live. And so getting

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Speaker 1: in touch with what's happening for us on a sensation level,

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Speaker 1: we can start having you know, daily check ins. I

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Speaker 1: sometimes we'll have my clients just set an alarm to

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Speaker 1: notice what's happening in their body once a day for

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Speaker 1: two minutes, and that can be anything I'm feeling hot,

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Speaker 1: i'm feeling cold, I'm feeling some tension, just to start

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Speaker 1: noticing what's happening there. And in the therapeutic process, sometimes

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Speaker 1: we move backwards, so you had a reaction to this thing,

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Speaker 1: what was happening before that, And sometimes we can track backwards,

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Speaker 1: and then as we move through the process. Clients tend

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Speaker 1: to get really good at noticing, Oh, actually I got

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Speaker 1: really hot, I felt really tense, and then I had

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Speaker 1: the thought that this thing was happening or this felt familiar,

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Speaker 1: and then I reacted in this way. But it takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of practice, and it takes being intentional about

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Speaker 1: slowing things down because so much of what happens happens

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Speaker 1: automatically that if we can't slow it down a little

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Speaker 1: bit and create a little space, then we never actually

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Speaker 1: gather the information we need to gather about what's happening

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Speaker 1: and where that's coming from. So you mentioned that sometimes

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Speaker 1: it is smaller movements, like more meditative kind of things,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes you use larger movements. Can you say more

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Speaker 1: about what you use and wind? Yeah, So if we're

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Speaker 1: working with somatic memories that we're working with feelings in

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Speaker 1: the body that are coming up for somebody that seemed

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Speaker 1: like they may be connected to a traumatic experience, I

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Speaker 1: will start with slower, more meditative somatic work body work.

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Speaker 1: Just two support my client in that slowing down process

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Speaker 1: so that we can gather information about what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the body, sometimes noticing breath or sometimes just noticing if

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Speaker 1: you're comfortable. Really small adjustments when we are working with trauma, specifically,

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Speaker 1: moving into bigger, more expressive movement can sometimes feel really cathartic,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't always help the nervous system to settle

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Speaker 1: into the space where it feels safe or comfortable or connected.

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Speaker 1: And so that slower, smaller, more gentle movement, micro movements

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Speaker 1: I sometimes call them, can help the nervous system to

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Speaker 1: get to a place where it can be present with

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Speaker 1: was there, can be present with intense emotion, can be

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Speaker 1: present with intense sensation in a in a way that

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Speaker 1: feels less overwhelming for the body. So I want to

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Speaker 1: go back to something that you said that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned this even in talking about like your own

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Speaker 1: journey into dancing movement therapy, that you found dancing to

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Speaker 1: be cathartic, and you're saying that, you know, sometimes even

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Speaker 1: for clients, you can feel cathartic to move your body

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Speaker 1: in a certain way, but it doesn't always helps to

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Speaker 1: kind of slow down your nervous system. Can you say

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Speaker 1: more about that? Yeah, So the bigger suppressive movement is

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Speaker 1: really great when we're expressing ourselves, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people might notice I'll relate this a little bit to exercise.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes when we exercise, we feel better, right, We get

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Speaker 1: our endorphins going, you know, that dopamine action that comes

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Speaker 1: up from having done something and the reward of all

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Speaker 1: of that, and it can feel good for a period

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Speaker 1: of time, But it doesn't necessarily mean that we've worked

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Speaker 1: through or moved through the thing that needed to be

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Speaker 1: processed and integrated. So just because I go work out

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Speaker 1: at the gym doesn't mean that I've resolved the issue

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Speaker 1: that I'm having with my mom or my partner. But

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Speaker 1: if I can slow things down and notice what's happening

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Speaker 1: in my body in small ways, right, the thing that

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Speaker 1: led to the response I had to an argument with

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Speaker 1: my partner, or the thing that led to the response

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Speaker 1: I had to my parent or somebody at work. Right,

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Speaker 1: if we can slow things down, the nervous system actually

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Speaker 1: has time to process and let go of some of

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Speaker 1: the activation that may have come up around that. So

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Speaker 1: if we think of like the fight or flight response.

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Speaker 1: Let's say we get into an argument and our response is,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not having this conversation anymore. I'm leaving. Right,

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Speaker 1: the nervous system has all of that energy there from

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Speaker 1: that fight or flight response. And if we can take

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Speaker 1: that be with that that energy and that activation really

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Speaker 1: slowly and in small ways, the nervous system starts to

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Speaker 1: feel safe enough to let some of that go so

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Speaker 1: that we actually get to move through what happened and

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Speaker 1: process what happened on a body level, and then we

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Speaker 1: can process it more cognitively to of course, does that

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Speaker 1: make sense? Yeah? And I would love for you to

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Speaker 1: maybe give us an example of like what this looks

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Speaker 1: like in session, right, Like I feel like this is

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Speaker 1: a perfect example because I feel like this is a

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Speaker 1: lot of people's response, right, you know, like I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to have this conversation right now, I'm out kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, right, So this flight kind of a response

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Speaker 1: that you're talking about. So how would working from a

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Speaker 1: dance and movement perspective help to kind of manage them?

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Speaker 1: It is? Yeah, So in session, if somebody came to

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Speaker 1: me with that scenario, I would try to backtrack a bit.

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Speaker 1: So what was happening when you felt like you needed

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Speaker 1: to leave? Did you notice anything that came up for

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Speaker 1: you on the physical level? What was happening in your body? Right?

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Speaker 1: And if they can't identify in that particular moment, maybe

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Speaker 1: we go back to other situations that felt similar. But

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Speaker 1: let's say for the sake of this example, that this

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Speaker 1: person was able to identify in that moment, I felt

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Speaker 1: really hot, I felt tension in my shoulders, I was

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Speaker 1: clenching my fists, and I just felt like I needed

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Speaker 1: to get out otherwise I was gonna be out of control.

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Speaker 1: So I might in the body in session go back

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Speaker 1: to you said you were clenching your fist. Let's clench

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Speaker 1: our fists now if that feels okay, and just be

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Speaker 1: with that action for now, right, and then just noticing

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Speaker 1: what comes up from that place. Right. Sometimes if we

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Speaker 1: go back to the action that we took in the moment,

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Speaker 1: it can invite some of those same feelings up, or

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Speaker 1: it can just invite some familiarity. And from a somatic standpoint,

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Speaker 1: what I might also have them do is really really

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Speaker 1: slowly start to a out their fists to unfold, just

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Speaker 1: on their own, and notice what happens there and so

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Speaker 1: here we might notice, does your breath change when your

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Speaker 1: fists start to open up? Like what happens in the

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Speaker 1: body is that action is taken as that is, your

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Speaker 1: fist starts to open and so we just slow things

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Speaker 1: down a little bit so that perhaps within there, at

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Speaker 1: some point the nervous system can say, oh, it's okay

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Speaker 1: to let some of this energy go and start to

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Speaker 1: move through this scenario a little bit. And from a

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Speaker 1: client perspective, right, the body also remembers, so that when

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Speaker 1: we experience that something similar and we notice that we're

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Speaker 1: clenching our fists if it feels safe to do so,

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Speaker 1: we now know what it's like to let go in

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Speaker 1: the moment. M M. So the next time you are

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Speaker 1: in an experience where you feel like you know what

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of this situation, if it's

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Speaker 1: a safe situation for you to stay in, maybe you

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Speaker 1: then practice gently opening and closing your fists to discharge

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Speaker 1: some of that energy. Right, got it? Got it? Okay? Okay,

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Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. I wonder what impact

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Speaker 1: you know, like music? Do you use a lot of

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Speaker 1: music in conjunction with like the dancing movement work that

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Speaker 1: you do? I do. Yeah, movement is really great. It

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Speaker 1: helps clients a lot to feel like they're being seen.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes I'll have folks choose a song that validates

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Speaker 1: what they're feeling. UM and if we're doing more expressive movement,

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Speaker 1: then we can move with that song. I also find

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Speaker 1: that movement can be really great for even regulating the

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Speaker 1: nervous system, because as we listen to voice and as

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Speaker 1: we listen to music, our nervous system does what's called

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Speaker 1: co regulating or regulating to what we're hearing. And if

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Speaker 1: that sound feels like something that we can connect to

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Speaker 1: or feels like something toothing, it can also support us

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Speaker 1: and coming back to a more grounded and regulated space,

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Speaker 1: you know, Jenn. For something I've been paying attention to

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Speaker 1: a lot, you know, especially since the pandemic has started,

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Speaker 1: is just how, especially for black people, like music and

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Speaker 1: song has played I feel like such a big part

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Speaker 1: in like us collectively trying to heal through some of this.

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Speaker 1: You know. So we saw the versus battles pop up

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Speaker 1: in d J D Nice, you know, with the club Quarantine,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder if you've thought about, you know, like

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Speaker 1: or can give any insights to, you know, like why

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Speaker 1: that has been so powerful for a lot of us. Culturally,

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Speaker 1: music is incredibly significant. I know for me and my family,

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Speaker 1: we always had music playing when we were cleaning on

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Speaker 1: Saturday mornings, and it was like a you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a major part of life. Um. And I also

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Speaker 1: think when it comes to the online music and how

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Speaker 1: folks coped with the versus battles and all of that,

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Speaker 1: there's community in that. And during the pandemic and everything

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Speaker 1: that has happened with so many folks in isolation, those

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Speaker 1: types of things were things that we could all get

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Speaker 1: on board with, even if it was just virtually. And

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Speaker 1: there's a a different kind of connection that we make

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Speaker 1: when it comes to music because we can co regulate

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Speaker 1: with the sound and with the voice, and so even

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Speaker 1: though we're in a virtual space and we're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: connected to each other in community, we're all connected to

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Speaker 1: this one thing, this sound, this voice, this DJ and

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Speaker 1: our nervous systems can tap into that and that can

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Speaker 1: feel really so cortive. So just from the standpoint of

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Speaker 1: like the body and the nervous system, that's how it

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Speaker 1: makes sense to me. Yeah, you know, as you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the whole idea around like Saturday morning, they listen when

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Speaker 1: he sounded clean, right, Like, I have an immediate memory

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Speaker 1: of that as well, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us do. And so I wonder if you can say

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Speaker 1: more just about like how much music helps us to

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Speaker 1: like store certain memories. Yeah, because we pick in music

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Speaker 1: from a nonverbal standpoint, and the nervous system is tapping

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Speaker 1: into the sounds and how those sounds feel for us

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Speaker 1: and what the experience of those sounds are. So you

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Speaker 1: might notice when you're listening to certain kinds of music

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Speaker 1: it can feel a little bit off putting, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's the voice and sometimes that's the sound, or there

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Speaker 1: may be instruments that we really identify with and we

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Speaker 1: find to be soothing, or tones of voices that we

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Speaker 1: find to be soothing. The nervous system is always working

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Speaker 1: to figure out what's safe and what's not safe, or

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Speaker 1: what's comfortable and what's not comfortable. And so as we're

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Speaker 1: listening to music, if the music feels comfortable and safe

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Speaker 1: for us and we're also having a safe experience, then

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Speaker 1: that may be something that we register as a more

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Speaker 1: desirable or positive memory, something that stays with us. And likewise,

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Speaker 1: if we're listening to music and we're having an undesirable experience,

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Speaker 1: will remember that too. But all of that gets stored

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Speaker 1: because there's so much that we can co regulate with

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Speaker 1: in the moment. If we're cleaning with our families on

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Speaker 1: Saturday morning, and we're enjoying that experience. We're co regulating

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Speaker 1: with the music, we're also regulating with the other people

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Speaker 1: that we're in community with, which is a really powerful

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Speaker 1: experience in the body connection and support. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: wonder as you're talking, I'm thinking about like concerts, and

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing that that's a part of what's happening as well, right,

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Speaker 1: Like why so many people are drawn to you that

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Speaker 1: you know, collective experience of like hearing some of their

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Speaker 1: favorite artists and you know, really get this high of

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Speaker 1: listening to the music with other people. Yeah, because we

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Speaker 1: get to plug into other people for a little while.

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Speaker 1: Al Right, I can turn myself off and give it

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Speaker 1: to somebody else. Yeah, Like collective energy can be really powerful. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I want to go back to the conversations around

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Speaker 1: like what happens in sessions, And I'm wondering, like what

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Speaker 1: is the balance between like dance and movement and then

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Speaker 1: also talking like how do you kind of because I'm guess,

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Speaker 1: of course there is some talking I'm related to like

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Speaker 1: what's happening in the body. What's the balance of that? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really depends on the client. I would say most

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Speaker 1: of the time, it's about that we spend really noticing

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the body and talking about verbally

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Speaker 1: expressing what's there, naming what's in the body. And in

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Speaker 1: the beginning, it might be the balance might be a

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Speaker 1: little skewed where we'll do a little more talking than

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Speaker 1: moving because it takes some time. You'rely for folks to

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Speaker 1: get comfortable even with the idea of checking in with

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Speaker 1: their bodies, but typically we get to a place where

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Speaker 1: it's about fifty fifty mm hmmm. I'm glad you brought

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Speaker 1: that up. When you started talking, I was definitely thinking like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I could see how this modality would be a little

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think therapy, of course, is uncomfortable for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people for a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 1: But when you talk about the fact that like we

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Speaker 1: are in this top down society and or even further

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Speaker 1: away from like checking in with our bodies and our sensations,

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Speaker 1: it definitely made me think like it would be difficult,

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Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people to start engaging

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Speaker 1: with this type of treatment. What kinds of things do

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Speaker 1: you do kind of in early sessions to kind of

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Speaker 1: help you know, ground people in this experience and help

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Speaker 1: them to become a little bit more comfortable. In the beginning,

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Speaker 1: what I tend to do is just how folks notice

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Speaker 1: how they're sitting in a chair or how they're standing,

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Speaker 1: and just noticing, right, are you comfortable where you are?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a question, or at least in

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Speaker 1: my experience in my work is that folks aren't really

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Speaker 1: used to being asked that question, And so I start there,

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Speaker 1: are you comfortable? Are there any like ajustments that you

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Speaker 1: need to make in order to feel more comfortable where

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Speaker 1: you are? And it invites an awareness that I find

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Speaker 1: is not too intimidating. Right, I can check in and

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Speaker 1: see if like I need to move my leg or

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Speaker 1: if I need to get a pillow or whatever needs

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Speaker 1: to happen here. And then later on we might start

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Speaker 1: to notice what's happening with your breath? Are you feeling

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Speaker 1: like it's okay to take a deep breath or does

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Speaker 1: it feel okay to just breathe normally? Or asking folks like,

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Speaker 1: how did you feel after explaining that thing to me?

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Speaker 1: Because in the beginning, we tend to do a lot

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Speaker 1: more talking, so somebody will say, like I have this

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Speaker 1: experience work, or I had this experience at home, and

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Speaker 1: I'll say, Okay, well, why don't we just take him

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Speaker 1: a minute to just notice how your heart is beating,

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Speaker 1: or how you're breathing right now, or if there are

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Speaker 1: any places in your body where you're noticing tension. And

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Speaker 1: so a lot of folks think like, we're gonna come

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Speaker 1: in in the first session and we're gonna like dance around,

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Speaker 1: and that would be great, but it doesn't always happen

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Speaker 1: that way. So in the beginning, it's like little invitations

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Speaker 1: just to check in and notice what's there. The things

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Speaker 1: that I think folks can sometimes be more familiar with

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Speaker 1: tension and breath or heartbeat. And how do most people

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Speaker 1: find you, Jennifer. Is it like they've tried to talk

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Speaker 1: therapy and they're like, oh, I want to do something different,

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Speaker 1: or like people just kind of have done a lot

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Speaker 1: of research and feel like, you know, dancing movement would

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Speaker 1: be a great fit for them. Most people have no

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Speaker 1: idea what dance movement therapy and h but I've I've

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Speaker 1: built a small community on Instagram and have done quite

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Speaker 1: a bit of education around what it is. And so

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Speaker 1: most folks will come and say, like, it looks interesting

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Speaker 1: on Instagram, so I'll try it, and then we dig

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Speaker 1: into it and in really small ways, and then I

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Speaker 1: have a handful of folks who will come in and

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Speaker 1: say I tried talk therapy and I feel like I

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Speaker 1: need something more, and we'll take it from there. But

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Speaker 1: most people come in with absolutely no understanding of what

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Speaker 1: dance movement psychotherapy is and is there anyone for whom

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Speaker 1: dance and movement therapy might not be a good fit

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Speaker 1: for all? Are there certain things that you kind of

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Speaker 1: like need to do to be ready for dance and

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Speaker 1: movement therapy? I would say if you're willing to be

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Speaker 1: open to the potential of the body in therapy, then

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Speaker 1: it could be a good fan. I might also add

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Speaker 1: to that if you've been through an incredible amount of trauma,

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Speaker 1: which I do have clients who who come to me

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Speaker 1: having experienced trauma, then it's also best to not only

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Speaker 1: find somebody who has the dance movement therapy training, but

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Speaker 1: is also trauma informed and trained in how to work

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Speaker 1: with trauma in the body. The two don't always go together,

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Speaker 1: but generally speaking, if you're open to noticing what's happening

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Speaker 1: in your body in addition to noticing what's happening in

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Speaker 1: your brain. Then as a dance movement therapist, I can

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Speaker 1: work with that. Can you say more about the importance

434
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: of making sure that the person, like, if you've had trauma,

435
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: making sure that your therapist also has this experience of

436
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: trauma informed work in conjunction with the dance and movement therapy.

437
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: Why would that be important. Yeah, we spoke a little

438
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 1: bit in the beginning about the way the body stores experience.

439
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: The body holds both good memories, undesirable memories, and the

440
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: things that were really overwhelming and the things that we

441
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: found to be traumatic. And so as you're working with

442
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: the body, if you're working with somebody who isn't trauma informed,

443
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: there could be times at which you're pushed outside of

444
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: your capacity because they're not looking at things from a

445
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: trauma informed lens. If somebody comes in from a trauma

446
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: informed standpoint, I actually assume that everybody's experienced trauma, but

447
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: from a trauma informed lens. Taking the way in which

448
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: the body is responding and noticing what's happening as a

449
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: result of trauma. What is a trauma response and what

450
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: might not be a trauma response is really important, and

451
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: I think if you have some training and background on

452
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: what that means, then you can more easily and more

453
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: safely support somebody who's experienced a lot of trauma. But

454
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of variation within dance movement therapy programs

455
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: and graduate school and some talk about trauma and so

456
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: don't talk about it at all, And so making sure

457
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: that if you have experienced trauma, that you know you're

458
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: working with somebody who knows how to hold what can

459
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: come up from that in the body and also knows

460
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: how to support you in completing some of those trauma

461
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: cycles and discharging some of that nervous system activity so

462
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: that you're not leaving therapy every week feeling like a

463
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: raw nerve ending I think is really important, especially with

464
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: what you've already shared Jennifer about you know, like how

465
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: that is stored in our bodies. It feels like this work,

466
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: particularly right dance and movement therapy, could really wake some

467
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: of that up in ways that you would not expect,

468
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: and if you don't know what to do with it,

469
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: then it could be really dangerous I think for people absolutely. Yeah, yeah,

470
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: So if we are looking for somebody you know. I'm

471
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: guessing there will likely be people enjoying our conversation who

472
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: are thinking, Oh, this sounds really cool. I'd like to

473
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: find somebody in my area who does this. How might

474
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: people be able to find people who are trained in

475
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: this modality in dance and movement therapy. They could go

476
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: to the American Dance Therapy Association website and they have

477
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: a list of all of the dance therapists that are

478
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 1: are registered or board certified there. And depending on where

479
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: you are in the country, there may be more of us,

480
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: but there are They have a listing of folks all

481
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: over the US. Got it? And are there any other

482
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: resources that you find yourself, you know, sharing with clients

483
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: that they find really helpful. I normally share a few

484
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,239
Speaker 1: books for folks who are interested in this kind of

485
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 1: work because I work predominantly with black women. One of

486
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: the books that I share a lot is called Oppression

487
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 1: in the Body, and that book explores the ways in

488
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: which we are affected by the larger collective and how

489
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: oppression lives in a body and can affect the body.

490
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: There's also Resum Amnicum's book My Grandmother's Hands that is

491
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: like an introduction to some somatic work and just kind

492
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: of processing through the body, especially as it relates to

493
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: racial trauma. And for folks who are looking to just

494
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: start to move or have their own kind of daily

495
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: practice around movement. There's a book called Body Fullness has

496
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: like little activities that you can incorporate just to get

497
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: more in touch with what's happening in your body or

498
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: to start moving a little bit. And is there another

499
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 1: activity that you it share. You've already given us a lot,

500
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: but is there like a favorite activity that you share

501
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: for people who are kind of just getting started in this. Yeah,

502
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: I think checking in with your body, as I mentioned earlier,

503
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: just like noticing and naming what's there really objectively. And

504
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: the other thing that I recommend is noticing if there's

505
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: one part of your body that you're okay moving. Because

506
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: we have so many experiences that are stored in the body,

507
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: it may not feel okay to just start to move

508
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: your whole body all at once, but every now and

509
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: then just noticing, right, is there a part of my

510
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: body that I might be able to move right now

511
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 1: in a really small way, and just notice what happens

512
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: from that place. So that might be your fingers or

513
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: that might be your toes. It doesn't have to be

514
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: anything big. But as we invite more awareness in the body,

515
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: then we we start to notice more frequently what's there,

516
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: and then perhaps from there we can get support and

517
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: kind of working through some of those things. You know,

518
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: something else that I'm thinking, Jennifer, as you're talking, especially

519
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: when you talk about doing more of the like expressive work,

520
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: I would imagine that something that often comes up is,

521
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, people feeling really shy about like dancing with

522
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: a not only a stranger, but also a therapist stranger. Right, So,

523
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: so what kind of work is done in supporting people

524
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: to kind of you know, get rid of like that

525
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: judgment or you know, understanding that the space is safe

526
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: enough to do that. Yeah, it takes time. And also

527
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: when we're moving in person, the space that I use

528
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: doesn't have any mirrors. Mirrors can bring up a lot

529
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: of things for a lot of people. If we're moving virtually,

530
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: I'll often ask clients to hide their self view so

531
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: that they can't see themselves back in the camera. And

532
00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: virtually has actually offered a really great way for folks

533
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: to get more comfortable because they can actually step to

534
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: the side of their cameras and move so I don't

535
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: they don't have to have me looking at them the

536
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: whole time, And so that's been really fun to explore.

537
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: But in person, it's what do you feel comfortable doing

538
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: right now? Do you want me to turn around? Do

539
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: you want me to be close to you? Do you

540
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: want me to be far away from you? Is there

541
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: a part of your body that you're okay moving with

542
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 1: me watching or witnessing? Or can I move with you,

543
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,320
Speaker 1: which sometimes actually will take off some of the pressure.

544
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: Can we both be silly and embarrassed together right now

545
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: so that there's a shared experience and it's not just

546
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: one person moving and the other person watching, Or sometimes

547
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: I'll even start moving first. So it really depends on

548
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: the client, But generally I would say it just takes time.

549
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: In any therapy relationship, right we're building trust, and so

550
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: you may not move been the first session, and you

551
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: may not move in the second session, but maybe as

552
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: we get more comfortable with each other, you're okay doing that.

553
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah, I can see how this space really

554
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: would be so ripe with like lots of conversations and

555
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: lots of stuff being brought up for people. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, well,

556
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing all of this with us today.

557
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: Jennifer has been super helpful. Can you tell people where

558
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: we can find you your website as well as any

559
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like to share? Sure, I am

560
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: on social media at Body Full Healing in most of

561
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: the places, and the website is the Body Full Healing

562
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: Project dot com. Perfect will be sure to include all

563
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: of that in the show Knows. Thank you so much,

564
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. It was such a pleasure

565
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: to hear about Jennifer's work. Stay tuned from my conversation

566
00:35:52,239 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: with Cormen Rogers after the break. When I think of beautiful,

567
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: soulful voices, Carmen Rogers is one that comes to mind first.

568
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 1: Her brand new EP, Hello Human, Volume one, walks you

569
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: through the human experience with keen self awareness through love, intimacy, wonder, regret,

570
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: and the quest for healing and wholeness. You may have

571
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: also heard her on the road with Zoe are Jamming

572
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: on stage as a featured vocalist and songwriter with a

573
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: wildly popular and dynamic Grammy nominated band, The Foreign Exchange.

574
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: Carman joins us today to talk about her connection to music,

575
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: how she stayed connected to her craft during the pandemic

576
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: and the emotional spaces she visits when writing and performing.

577
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. I am so thrilled that you were

578
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: able to join us today, Corman. You are one of

579
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: my favorite voices. I wanted to make sure as many

580
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: people as possible fall in love with you as I have.

581
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: I'm very happy you're able to join us today. Thank

582
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: you so much. I mean, I'm flattered, But I'm such

583
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: a fan of yours that I guess we can just

584
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: fan girl out on each other. So you do a

585
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 1: fan girl like so I wonder if you can start

586
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: by just telling us a little bit about your journey

587
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: as an artist. When did you know that you had

588
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: like this gift of singing? Oh? Boy, you know, I've

589
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: known it all of my life, as far as I

590
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: can remember. Has something to do with music. And you know,

591
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 1: my mom and family always said you were singing before

592
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: you could speak. I was the entertainment for my family.

593
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: I was a little clown. I was a little show

594
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: tony like all the things I would put on the show.

595
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: But I just always loved music and knew it was

596
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: going to be my path. I didn't know exactly what

597
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: it would look like. But I just knew it was

598
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: something that I wanted, that I desired, and that no

599
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: matter what, it was gonna be like a central part

600
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: of my life. And so, you know, I did all

601
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: the things that you would think in the nineties. I

602
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: had a girl group and you know, and then um,

603
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: and then eventually, you know, started pursuing a solo career.

604
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: I'm from Dallas, Texas originally, and so I actually came

605
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: up with Erica Badou and the Kirk Franklin Crew and

606
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: God's Property, Like we all grew up together. And so

607
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,439
Speaker 1: how do you make it in a city that has

608
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: so much talent but not necessarily you know, the resources

609
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: and the access. And one of Erica Badu's background singers,

610
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: by the name of the Dombie, who's an amazing singer

611
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: and artist in her own right, was branching off to

612
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: do her thing, and I started singing backs for her,

613
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: and that was my first official job in the industry.

614
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: And then I started doing my thing as a solo artist.

615
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,439
Speaker 1: Then put out my first record in two thousand four,

616
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: and and then I've just you know, been putting out

617
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: music independently. You know, early rejections from the big labels

618
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: because they were like, we already have her, we already

619
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 1: have that one, and you know, we have Jill Scott already,

620
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: and saying that there's only enough space for so many

621
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: those black women in black voices were a little bit

622
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: of a disappointment, but it was still the fuel because

623
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 1: I still knew I was passionate about this thing. So

624
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: I kept moving and just said, I will carve my

625
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: own path one brick out of time, and I own

626
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: my own label and all of my own publishing, and

627
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 1: I've built amazing relationships over the years. With those relationships,

628
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: I've gotten music placed and movies and TV, and I've

629
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: even music supervised some independent films and and some TV

630
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 1: and and I've been able to do that on my

631
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: own and fully own it. And it definitely feels like

632
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,280
Speaker 1: this in entertainment and in other areas of like professional faces,

633
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: there is often this pitting us against one another, right,

634
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: But you're also someone who I've seen be incredibly collaborative

635
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: throughout your career. So how were you able to kind

636
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: of maintain that sense of like, I'm gonna still work

637
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: with people even though the powers that be, so to speak,

638
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: we're almost kind of pitying you against other black women

639
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: in the area. Oh wow. You know it's a decision.

640
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: I chose collaboration over competition. It just doesn't make sense

641
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: to me. And as competitive as I am, the competition

642
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: is something that I've just always been driven by. But

643
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: it's been more so to win for me, not to

644
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: beat someone else. And so collaboration is how also I've

645
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: been able to stay in this industry, an industry that

646
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: can beat you down and where you out. Collaboration has

647
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: kept me not only afloat, but it's helped me thrive.

648
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: One of my biggest collaborations and one that I'm most

649
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: proud of, is being part of a band called the

650
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: Foreign Exchange. And that band is so popular worldwide, and

651
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 1: we before I was part of the Foreign Exchange. I

652
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: put out my debut solo album in two thousand four

653
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: within months of The Foreign Exchange putting out their debut,

654
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: and so we were fans of one another from Afar

655
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: And when I finally got to meet the band leader

656
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: fonte and and Nikolay, they were like, we want you

657
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: to be part of this. And I became part of

658
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: the fabric of the Foreign Exchange, and part of that

659
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: as recognizing good people and good music and wanting to

660
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 1: be part of it and wanting to be a builder.

661
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's part of it. Collaboration is building

662
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 1: something long term with other like minded people who are

663
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: trying to do the same thing. Foreign Exchange is also

664
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: one of my favorites, so I feel like that is

665
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 1: probably how I got introduced you, and I was like, Oh,

666
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: they're great, but who is she write such beautiful music?

667
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: And I described the genre music that you make in

668
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 1: Foreign Exchange make as deep feeling music, like it puts

669
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: me deep in my feelings and so if I feel

670
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: that way listening, I am sure that there's a lot

671
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: of like emotion that goes into the production of it.

672
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about your creative process? Yeah, yeah,

673
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: you know there is a lot of emotion because it

674
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: really depends on what place I'm into. That's one of

675
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: the things with being an artist is you know, when

676
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: can we cuss? But absolutely yes. But when Eric has

677
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 1: said I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my ship,

678
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: when I tell you that resonates to this day with

679
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: artists of any art form because we are we are

680
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 1: sensitive about it because it's one of those things that

681
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: it comes from this place that is both spiritual as

682
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: well as kind of the work that we put in

683
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 1: into our craft as well. Some of it honestly is work,

684
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: but some of it is we really believe it's divine,

685
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: like it's something that was placed in us and given

686
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: to us, and so we end up being sensitive about

687
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: it because we kind of live it as well as

688
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: work it. It is us as well as you know,

689
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,279
Speaker 1: it's this inward and outward expression of who we are,

690
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: so we can be sensitive about it. So during the

691
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: process of creation, we are sensitive also to the things

692
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: around us. I know that kind of like Mary, the

693
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: all this is so messed up. Sometimes I write my

694
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: best music when my heart has been broken, and then

695
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: I look at the music and then I have to

696
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: dig a little bit deeper to write them music when

697
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: I'm in a great space and a happy space, to say, Okay,

698
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: what is this music? How do I connect? How is

699
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: this going to resonate with people? How am I gonna

700
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: dig a little bit deeper? When the sun is shining

701
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: so bright and I'm skipping down the avenue. It's like,

702
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to see kind of my process when

703
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm able to dig into hurt versus dig into happiness.

704
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: It's so strange and maybe you know, y'all can therapist

705
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: help me unpack all of that. But in that process,

706
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: you know, I will wake up to melody sometimes and

707
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: I will lay in bed like, reach from my phone,

708
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: turn on my voice memo, and then try to capture

709
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: that melody so that I won't forget it, and then

710
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: I'll develop it later. But sometimes I will work with

711
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: other musicians who will send me just music and say

712
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: how does this make you feel? And that music will

713
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: speak to me and tell me what it's about. I

714
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: get inspired in all kinds of ways. I put out

715
00:43:56,160 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: a project during a pandemic, recorded during the height of pandemic,

716
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: and let me tell you something. That was an interesting

717
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: process because there were days I didn't want to get

718
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: out of bid and so one of my producer friends said,

719
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: you have to remember who you are, remember who you

720
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 1: are and why you're here, and I was just like,

721
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 1: you know what, I meet this music that is also

722
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: healing for me, I'm going to also try to create

723
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 1: something that could be healing for other people. So whatever

724
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: space that I'm in, it really does kind of also

725
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: give me the trajectory of the music too. I'm really

726
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: glad you brought that up, because as an artist, you

727
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 1: are the instrument, right and so a part of you

728
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: taking care of your instrument is like protecting yourself from

729
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,280
Speaker 1: like all the stress. And there have been so many

730
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: stresses this year that I definitely have been curious, like

731
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: about people who create in these kinds of ways, how

732
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: do you keep doing and how do you stay connected

733
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: to that when there's so much stress going around? Oh boy, again,

734
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: it's some decisions that had to be made as well

735
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: as giving myself grace. One thing, if you talk to

736
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: so many artists, many of us said the same thing.

737
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: And we were having private conversations amongst artists because we

738
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: ended up having to kind of be a different type

739
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 1: of support because we were feeling things that other people

740
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: who weren't necessarily artists, we couldn't express to them, and

741
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: we didn't know that they could understand. A lot of

742
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: my artist friends and I started having conversations privately and

743
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: quietly about how do we deal with this, especially considering

744
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 1: our industry as musicians like was decimated like all at once.

745
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: It was just over. So we were dealing with our

746
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 1: livelihood as well as dealing with a global crisis, and

747
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: so initially we've all talked about how we can realize

748
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: how tired we were. We were exhausted, especially touring musicians,

749
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: and I'm a touring musician. When we got shut down,

750
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: I honestly went to sleep. I went to bed and said, WHOA,

751
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: I have not been sleeping, I have not been resting.

752
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: I have been going, going, going, going going. A lot

753
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: of us realized how tired we were, and so first

754
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: came rest, the rest that was probably already needed, but

755
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,520
Speaker 1: also the grace to give ourselves to say, you're accustomed

756
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: to working. You're accustomed to going from the plane to

757
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: the stage, back to another plane, back to another stage,

758
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: sometimes living out of an unpacked suitcase because you have

759
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: a show coming up in just a few days, so

760
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: why a pack if you have to get back on

761
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 1: the road again. There is a lot of that, and

762
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: then of course still trying to manage just your day

763
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: to day life while you do those things. So resting,

764
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: but also giving myself specifically grace to say, this is

765
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 1: a lot, this is kind of scary. This is literally

766
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: uncharted water that none of us in our lifetime, we've

767
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: never seen anything like this. And so it's okay to

768
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: not know what's gonna happen, and it's okay to not

769
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: do especially as creators, you know, and creatives, we're told

770
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: you gotta be doing something, you need to be creating.

771
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 1: So first I had to give myself grace to say

772
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: you don't have to do anything, and then come out

773
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: of that and say, when you're ready to do something,

774
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: you'll know when it's time. And when the time came,

775
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: I knew it was time and it was healing for

776
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: me do just because yeah, you know, I feel like

777
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: so many people had the same experience, right, like the pandemic.

778
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: Though it has definitely been tragic and like just awful

779
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 1: in lots of ways, I do feel like a lot

780
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: of people have the same story of realizing like how

781
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: unsustainable we have been living the pandemic, right, like just

782
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: always on the go. Wow. And it's so western of

783
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: us too, And I think and I believe that it's

784
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: part of the reason why there's a little bit and

785
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't call it a complete crisis. I really call

786
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: it more of a reckoning. When you look at employment

787
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: and companies having a hard time finding employees, it's because

788
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: when people realize they were lived in a life that

789
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: was not sustainable, that they were barely making ends me

790
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: that they were working and exhausted for very little return

791
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,840
Speaker 1: on all of that investment, and they had to sit down.

792
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: They're making a decision of like what am I going

793
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:16,479
Speaker 1: to go back to now that the world is quote

794
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: unquote opening back up. And so I think that all

795
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: of us, you know, no matter what we're doing or

796
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: what industry we're in, this last year has taught us

797
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,479
Speaker 1: so much. And I'm hoping what we take with us though,

798
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: is being thoughtful and mindful about how we live and

799
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 1: what we consider living and how we work, and the

800
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: working smart and making space to enjoy the fruits of

801
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: that labor. You know, when I hear people say they

802
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 1: had not taken a vacation in use, I'm like, I

803
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: work to vacation. I'm going to borrow the vacation. I

804
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: love vacation ng And even if I'm working, I will

805
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: find a vacation in the work because I really believe

806
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 1: that it's important to pour in to yourself. My girl

807
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: calls me the Queen of self care because I'm always like,

808
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: look y'all, not gonna kill me. Imports, you know, I

809
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: want to go back to something you said earlier about

810
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: feeling like you write some of your best work when

811
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: you're like brokenhearted, and I wonder about like the emotional

812
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 1: space it requires to like perform those songs when you're

813
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: feeling better. Right, So it's almost like you're kind of

814
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: happy being said constantly revisit this hurt. Can you share

815
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 1: about that process? It's very interesting. One of my favorite

816
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:44,359
Speaker 1: songs I've ever written is called It's Me, and it

817
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 1: is a song that I wrote out of this relationship

818
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: that was really just taking me through every roller coaster

819
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: you can imagine in the midst of that relationship. I

820
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: wrote this song because the hook is, if you would

821
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 1: just look side you, it's me. If you could see

822
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,120
Speaker 1: beyond you, it's me. And it's really the song saying

823
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: to this man, to my partner, like I'm here for you,

824
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: but you're so consumed by all of the things going

825
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: on and in your life and you feel like that

826
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: I could just never understand, and so you shut me out,

827
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: and you shut me out, and now you're filling in

828
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: with behaviors that are not that are that are not

829
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: helping out our relationship. And that song was written in grief.

830
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: I wrote that song out of grief of a failed

831
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: relationship that I thought I was going to marry this

832
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 1: person and be sitting on a porch with them thirty

833
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: years from now. Now, the funny thing is moving forward.

834
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: I do this song. I called this song the Little

835
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 1: Song that Could, because no matter when people hear it,

836
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: especially live, they connect to it if it's their first

837
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: time hearing it or they're five time hearing it. It's

838
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: just a song that people feel like I've lived this,

839
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: this is my story, and tapping back into it, though,

840
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 1: is not hurtful as much as it is like I

841
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: was able to come out of that. So when I

842
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: tapped into it, even on stage, the memory is more

843
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: of like WHOA, that was a million years ago, But

844
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: I've come out of that, like I've grown out of that.

845
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,439
Speaker 1: I did the song or a crowd in Houston, and

846
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: this particular night, I must have tapped into that old

847
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 1: me in a way, because I sang for my life

848
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: that night, and after the song ended, I barely remember

849
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: seeing the song. I felt like I was transported in

850
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 1: that moment to give everything in that moment in that

851
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,480
Speaker 1: song to the crowd. I finished the song and a

852
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: woman Yale, he ain't ship I was like, girl, he ain't.

853
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: With these songs, I feel as though it's kind of

854
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: acting in a way. You know. I've done a little

855
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: bit active and taking classes and all these things, and

856
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: what are asked to do is tap into a moment

857
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: so that you can connect with the role in that moment.

858
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm doing, so I no longer carry

859
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: the weight of the origin story of the song. It's

860
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: more of tapping into the moment and the feeling of

861
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: the song to make sure that the audience connects with

862
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: it more than it is about me connecting with how

863
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,959
Speaker 1: it made me necessarily feel at that time or the

864
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: person I should say I was at that time. It's

865
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: really about just telling the story m and what did

866
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: taking care of yourself after that experience looks like, you

867
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: know what? Part of it was just kind of I

868
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: had to do a release and some funny things happened.

869
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: I remember some of it. It wasn't even my choosing one.

870
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: I was touring and had a show with Balisle, who's

871
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: one of it's a friend and one of my favorite artists,

872
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: and many artists favorite artists like incredible singer, musician and performers.

873
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:08,760
Speaker 1: We had a show in Texas. I had already moved away.

874
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: I was living in Atlanta at the time, and while

875
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: I was traveling, my home was fergilarized and like most

876
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 1: of my favorite things were stolen, But most of my

877
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: favorite things that were stolen were gifts from this particular person.

878
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: Everything he had ever given me who was stolen, even

879
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 1: things we purchased together stole. Wow. And it's so interesting

880
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: because it was a few months after I made this

881
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: decision that I was never going to be able to

882
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: go back to it. I was like, okay, you know

883
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: when God laughs at your plans, I was like, Okay,

884
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: the tap on the shoulder, I guess I did listen.

885
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: So you gave me a hammer over my head of

886
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 1: letting this thing go. And that was a big part

887
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 1: of my process, was like, Okay, now you've removed the

888
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,239
Speaker 1: things that connected us. Now it's time to start removing

889
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: the ties, the other ties, some of those soul ties

890
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: that I felt like I needed to break completely. And

891
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: that was through prayer, that was through meditation, that was

892
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: through some purging, purging, serious purging, and that purging might

893
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: have been crying, that purging was reading that purging was

894
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,760
Speaker 1: a deep like getting to know myself. And of course

895
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: some of that purging had to be therapy, and I'm

896
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,760
Speaker 1: a big fan of therapy. I've been a therapy for years,

897
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: and talking through why why you stayed, why you allowed

898
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: some of those things to happen, why you felt that

899
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: you weren't good enough to say goodbye when all of

900
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: the writing was on the wall, and so dealing with

901
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 1: some of those things of the wise really helped me

902
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: get to a place of saying, Okay, I can really

903
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: say goodbye to this and close that chapter on my life.

904
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: M m yea. And that that it sounds like that

905
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: cathois Is in Texas kind of lead its way into

906
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: really kind of saying goodbye to this. It really did. Yeah.

907
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 1: So you mentioned that you release your first project in

908
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and so your career has spanned

909
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: like this time in history where social media has become

910
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 1: it seems more of an expectation for artists. You've already

911
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: talked about like your sensitivity, and I noticed you mentioned

912
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: recently that you were kind of hesitant to get on TikTok.

913
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: So can you say a little bit about your relationship

914
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: to social media as an artist, and how you've kind

915
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: of navigated that sing you're going there on you um,

916
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. I have a strange relationship with social media,

917
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: and and it's because I it's a tough thing to

918
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: feel as though you are you're supposed to give everything publicly,

919
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 1: like everything you do is for public consumption. And so

920
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: my relationship has always been trying to balance what do

921
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: I keep for myself and what do I share? And

922
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: technology just in itself, how it's evolved so much of

923
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: how people live. Everything they do, every move that they make,

924
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:18,279
Speaker 1: every meal that they eat, is now public. But that

925
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 1: also creates an interesting relationship with the people that support

926
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: you because of social media. There's also kind of this

927
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 1: misnomer or misconception that now they feel like, you know,

928
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 1: there's some entitlement to you, like because they have this

929
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: access one they feel that they know your in real life,

930
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 1: but too they feel as though, Okay, I support you,

931
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to get this now from you. And so

932
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,120
Speaker 1: where I've had a challenge, you know, just full transparency

933
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:55,359
Speaker 1: is finding that balance, is trying to figure out what

934
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: do I share, how do I share? How do I

935
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: make sure that I'm creating a safe space for myself

936
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: emotionally and mentally. Um So, yeah, I'm a work in

937
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: progress when it comes to social media because I'm fortunate

938
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: to have people and half followers and have you know,

939
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: supporters out there. They're like, Okay, what's she gonna do next?

940
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: And it's just like, oh, do I have to do?

941
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: Have to get our camera and do all this because

942
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to feel like I'm shocking and driving.

943
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: I really want to feel as though I'm creating something

944
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: that I desire to share with them, and that is good.

945
00:57:29,080 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: And so TikTok for me has been kind of a

946
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: gateway because you know I posted and you must be

947
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: referring to the video I posted just recently in the

948
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: middle of the night, because I remember that feeling of

949
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: being a little girl and practicing in front of my

950
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 1: mirror with my brush, and I just put on these

951
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: full concerts in my bedroom as a little girl, and

952
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: TikTok almost makes me feel that same feeling of I

953
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: am in my studio or in my living room or

954
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 1: in my space that's super safe and just exploring. And

955
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: so I'm looking at this as it could be the

956
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 1: shot in the arm that I needed to figure out

957
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: how to explore my craft and share that publicly. Mm hmmmmm. Yeah.

958
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: I really appreciate you sharing that because it does feel

959
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,919
Speaker 1: like it is this very delicate balance, like you want

960
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: to be connected to your supporters. But you're right, it

961
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,479
Speaker 1: does often breathe this sense of entitlement, in this sense

962
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 1: of invasiveness that I think is very difficult to manage,

963
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: and it's part of the reason why I just feel

964
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: that it's so important for us as artists to keep something,

965
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: if not plenty, for ourselves, still giving give the art.

966
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: That's what we're here for. That's if we want to

967
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 1: make a living of this. We have to share our craft.

968
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: But I think it's just important to keep so much

969
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: for yourself. Mm hmmmm. So, Hello Human, we have all

970
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: been anxiously awaiting and was so excited that we got

971
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: it this year. So tell us a little bit about

972
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: that project and what you might expect next. Oh my gosh,

973
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: Hello Human was supposed to come out and you know spring.

974
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: I started it in two thousand nineteen, but when everything

975
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 1: shut down and I wasn't able to record, and again

976
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 1: just needed to sit down for a little while, but

977
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: then got the drive again to start finishing that project,

978
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad I did because a couple of

979
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 1: the additions, including say So, actually came out of the pandemic.

980
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: Say So is a pandemic song. Is definitely I was

981
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: ministering to myself, knowing and hoping that I could, you know,

982
00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:43,439
Speaker 1: minister to others with that particular song right time when

983
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 1: you think a little Julian happenedness, do you say, Jasy,

984
00:59:55,280 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: those fools do bill to show you to pretects you.

985
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: But it's not the lowness of sex you But the

986
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: project is just kind of a little dive into all

987
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: sides of the emotions. It was. You know, I have

988
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: a song about being in love and being sensual and

989
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: and losing love, you know, probably not being a good

990
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 1: person and being the person that you should not date.

991
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of unhealthy people out there that you know,

992
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 1: we want to make them right, but they're just not

993
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: right and they tell you. And in this song, I say,

994
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm a bad idea, GI do have

995
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 1: the And then of course there's even the opening song,

996
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: you know, finding beauty and all of you, even the

997
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: things that aren't so great, understanding that we're whole humans

998
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,960
Speaker 1: were complete. We're multidimensional, and so I wanted to just

999
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,439
Speaker 1: have fun with that and explored a little bit. It's

1000
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 1: in a few different voices. I played with my lower register,

1001
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: which I never really done before, and just really mom

1002
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: with this project. But it was important for me with

1003
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: Hello Human that my reintroduction in some ways after not

1004
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: putting out solo music. I've been putting out you know,

1005
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: collapse projects for over the years, but had not put

1006
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: out a solo project since two thousand fifteen. That it

1007
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 1: was a reintroduction to me. So that project is really

1008
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: kind of just me, but it is Volume one. So

1009
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: the good news is there is a volume to coming

1010
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 1: later this year, and it's going to be more collaborative

1011
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: and there will be definitely surprized guest appearances that I

1012
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: think you're going to really really enjoy and I think

1013
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: that people are going to love. That's all who say

1014
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: about Volume two, but you will see it later this year.

1015
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: We're super excited about I just get to party with

1016
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: some of my favorite people on this next project, and

1017
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: I'm excited about it. Well, that is definitely the spirit

1018
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: we want to be taking into the latter half of

1019
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: this year, right, like just a party and celebratory spirit.

1020
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: I appreciate that absolutely. So when we can Cormen, we'd

1021
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: like to have a segment here called press Pause. I mean,

1022
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: this is just an opportunity for you to invite the

1023
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: community into an exercise or a journal promp or something

1024
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 1: that you have found helpful. So are there any like

1025
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 1: songwriting exercises are things that you might offer to people

1026
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:48,240
Speaker 1: who might be interested. Oh my gosh, absolutely, Okay, one

1027
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 1: of my favorite things to do. I actually have a

1028
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 1: journal and it's called one hundred Writing Prompts, and I've

1029
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 1: had it for a few years, but it's kind of

1030
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: full now, so I just start going outside of that.

1031
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 1: It inspired me choosing a topic and writing about it.

1032
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: And the topic could be anything from you know, when

1033
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 1: was the last time you took a family trip, Describe

1034
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: what that was, like, what color are you feeling today?

1035
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: And so ask some of those questions to yourself and

1036
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: then explore that it doesn't have to be in a

1037
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,360
Speaker 1: way of, you know, kind of like typical journaling of

1038
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, this is how I feel today. Sometimes it's

1039
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: not about what you're feeling today. It could be an

1040
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: event that happened just to write it and explore it

1041
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,280
Speaker 1: to kind of do a deep dive into some of

1042
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: those feelings, and that can actually bring out a song,

1043
01:03:47,440 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: it can bring out a story, and it's a great

1044
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: exercise and memory. But it's also an exercise in working

1045
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: outside of just how I'm feeling. What am I feeling?

1046
01:03:58,600 --> 01:04:02,000
Speaker 1: So that's a long way round of saying I love prompts,

1047
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 1: but I challenge people to give themselves prompts outside of feelings,

1048
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:11,240
Speaker 1: but also about events. M I love that And where

1049
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: can we find you, Carmen. We need to know where

1050
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: we can connect with you and how we can stay

1051
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:19,040
Speaker 1: updated on when we will see value to the best

1052
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: way to connect with me. I love Instagram. Of all

1053
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 1: of the social media platforms, I feel like Instagram is

1054
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: one of the most fun places. But I'm on all

1055
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: of the social's Instagram, Twitter at Carmen Rogers, that cr

1056
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 1: in the nd R O, d G e R s.

1057
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 1: Don't forget to be Facebook Carmen Rogers fans. But my

1058
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: website is I am Carmen Rogers dot com. You can

1059
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,800
Speaker 1: get my music there, you can leave me messages there,

1060
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: you can watch all my videos and listen to my music.

1061
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,040
Speaker 1: There's see a bunch of pictures get a little more

1062
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 1: information on my story and my journey. But I also

1063
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: respond on the social so you know, hit me up.

1064
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: I hope you guys follow on me, listen to the music.

1065
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: I hope that moves you. The music is on all

1066
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: of the streaming platforms, Spotify, Apple Music, Title, everywhere that

1067
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: music is found digitally, you will be able to find

1068
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: my music. I definitely check out my music as Carmen Rodgers.

1069
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: But the collaboration work that I've done also with the

1070
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: Foreign Exchange and with Zoe, and with our c and

1071
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: the Grits and some of my other friends that are

1072
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: making good music out there, we will be sure to

1073
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,800
Speaker 1: share all of that in the show notes. Well, thank

1074
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: you so much for spending some time with us today

1075
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 1: form and I really appreciate it. Now, thank you. This

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01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: was so much fun. I appreciate it. I'm so glad

1077
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: Corman and Jennifer were able to join us today to

1078
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: learn more about their work. Be sure to visit the

1079
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash

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01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 1: session to eleven, and don't forget to text two of

1081
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: your girls and tell them to check out the episode

1082
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,160
Speaker 1: as well. If you're looking for a therapist in your area.

1083
01:05:54,640 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 1: Be sure to check out our therapist directory at Therapy

1084
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you

1085
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 1: want to continue digging into this topic or just be

1086
01:06:03,720 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: in community with other sisters, come on over and join

1087
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 1: us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of

1088
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: the Internet designed just for black women. You can join

1089
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 1: us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com.

1090
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for joining me again this week.

1091
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you

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01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take get care