1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, This is part two of our episodes about 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Madonna's iconic performance at the first MTV Video Music Awards. 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: starting there. 5 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to mcvly Music Television. 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty one, the launch of MTV, a new 7 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: twenty four hour music channel, changed cultural history forever. By 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: captivating teens across the country and pushing. 9 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 3: Boundaries, you'll never look at music the same way again. 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: Enter Madonna, a scrappy twenty somethingter singer who also loved 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: challenging the status quo and was ready to become a star. 12 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 2: What are your dreams to rule the world? 13 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 4: There you go, ladies and gentlemen, this is Madonna. 14 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: When MTV gave her the chance to perform at the 15 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: first Video Music Awards, Madonna did what she does best, 16 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: scandalized the audience, and for better or for worse, stole 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: the show. 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 5: After I got off stage during that performance, my manager 19 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 5: was white as a ghost, and he looked at me. 20 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 6: He said, do you know what you just did? 21 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: Your career is over, but her career was just beginning. 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: I'm Susie Bannacharum and. 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: I'm Jessica Bennett, and this is in retrospect, where each 24 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that 25 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: shaped us. 26 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 4: And that we just can't stop thinking about. 27 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: Today, we're talking about one of Madonna's iconic early performances, 28 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: one that was so scandalous many predicted it would end 29 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: her career. But we're also talking about the rise of 30 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: MTV and how together MTV and Madonna became a force 31 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: that would define eighties pop culture. 32 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: This is Part two. 33 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 3: The year is nineteen eighty four and Madonna, who is 34 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 3: not a huge star yet, has just performed like a 35 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 3: vision at the first ever Video Music Awards. I am 36 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 3: dying to know what happens right after the performance, because, 37 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: as we talked about in part one, all the overt sexuality, 38 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: the writhing around on the ground Madonna did that really 39 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:00,600 Speaker 3: shocked audience. 40 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 4: You could say it even had the. 41 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 3: Potential to put her budding career in jeopardy, except, of course, 42 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 3: we know that it didn't. So what actually does happen 43 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 3: after that? 44 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: So what happens right after is despite the fact that 45 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: the audience and the other performance are clutching their pearls, 46 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: you know, this performance does what Madonna wanted to do. 47 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: It gets her name out there, and teenagers and new 48 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: fans who see her, they all go running to their 49 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: local music stores trying to buy you know, this song, 50 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: but it's not available yet, so they buy whatever other 51 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: Madonna music they can find. And at this point that's 52 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: just her first album, and that album, which was released 53 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: a year before this, suddenly jumps to number eight on 54 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: the Billboard charts. 55 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 4: It's so funny. 56 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: I can just imagine all these teenagers like rushing to 57 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: Tower Records where we used to go to get their 58 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 3: hands on Like a Virgin. This, of course was back 59 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 3: in the day when you had to literally like get 60 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 3: in a car or walk to the record store to 61 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: get the album, not just downloaded on your phone. 62 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 4: So when does that album finally come out? 63 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: So this performance at the VMA's the Like a Virgin performance, 64 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: happens mid September, and Like a Virgin the album is 65 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: finally released in November, and it's followed by the video 66 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: for Like a Virgin the day after, and the song 67 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: itself shoots to number one in the US, in Australia, 68 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: in Canada and stays there for six weeks. The album 69 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: is also a number one hit in the United States 70 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: and by February it goes triple platinum. So within just 71 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: a few months and more than three million albums are sold. 72 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: So Warner Brothers executives are thrilled, right, they are absolutely 73 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: thrilled with the performance. And in the end, all of 74 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: the scandal and the handwrigging around the MTV performance have 75 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: actually done exactly what she believed they would do, which 76 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: is bringing her more and more attention. 77 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 4: And brought a ton of attention to MTV two. I'm sure. 78 00:03:58,320 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: Yes. 79 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: In fact, Bob Pittman, who who was one of MTB's 80 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: founders and I should mention also runs iHeart Are Producers Hi. 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: Bob said after this that the first year it was 82 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: everything we could do to get some talent to come 83 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: to the event and fill seats, and by the second 84 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: year everyone wanted to be in the show. Right, So 85 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: she really makes it clear that being part of the 86 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 1: show can be good for your career and in fact, 87 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: as I've said, it boosted her album sales. 88 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I remember at this time, weren't there 89 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 3: the wannabes who were the Madonna superfans basically in the 90 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 3: way that we have the beehive or swifties today. 91 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: Yes, her fans were called the Madonna wannabes, or more 92 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: often the press would just call them the wannabes. 93 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 4: And tonight she winds off a twenty six city concert 94 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 4: tour which has been completely sold out, largely to teenage girls, 95 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 4: many of who might be called Madonna wannabes. 96 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: She was such a figure of delight for young girls 97 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: and young women that they really emulated her. In fact, 98 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: people wanted to look so much like me Madonna that 99 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: within two years of that album coming out, The Like 100 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: a Virgin Album, a flagship Macy's store in Manhattan held 101 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: a Madonna lookalike contest in Midtown Manhattan. 102 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,679 Speaker 7: Hundreds of Madonna wanna be He's packed into the Madonna 103 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 7: Land shop. 104 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 6: At Macy's department store for a Madonna lookalike contest. 105 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: And Andy Warhol was one of the judges. I'm amazing. 106 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: They opened a department called Madonna Land and so wow, 107 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: they buy all the clothes to make you look just 108 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: like Madonna. 109 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 4: Incredible. 110 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: Yes, it's different. 111 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: It's nobody else does it. 112 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 5: She's pretty and I like her. 113 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: It's the only one that we can look up soon. Nowadays, 114 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: she doesn't condemn femininity. 115 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 8: And anywhere madonnas well, everybody looks at you her style, 116 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 8: her look, the sort of like rag in your hair 117 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 8: and the plastic bracelets and the lots of jewelry that 118 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 8: really became the look of the eighties. 119 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 1: Like when people do eighties parodies now they dress like 120 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: Madonna dress. And in fact, she has said since that 121 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: at some point she stopped dressing like that because it 122 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: didn't feel unique, became spacial anymore. Like she's like, I 123 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: would walk down the street and see a million versions 124 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: of myself, and so it's one of the reasons she 125 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: starts to reinvent herself over and over again, because she's 126 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: so commonly emulated. And you know, she's not just a 127 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: pop star, right, she's really, in her mind an artist, 128 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: a person who is making statements about what a woman 129 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: can be and should be in the world. And you know, 130 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: this is just a perfect example of another time in 131 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: her career where people told her that her career was 132 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: over and she overcame. That's going to happen in her 133 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: career over and over and over again, and every time 134 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the people who said she couldn't rise above whatever the 135 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: scandal was have been proven wrong. 136 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 3: What do you think gave her that confidence, Like, are 137 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: there any hints or has she spoken about her upbringing 138 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: or where she came from and how it contributed to 139 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 3: where she would ultimately go. 140 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think Madonna's background, her childhood is 141 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: really interesting and really speaks to why she ends up 142 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: being the way she is. And I've been thinking about 143 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: nothing but Madonna for three weeks, So I'm going to 144 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: tell you a little bit more about her, just her 145 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: history so that we have that context. So Madonna was 146 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: born in Detroit. Her full name is Madonna Louise Chacone. 147 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: A lot of people think Madonna is a stage name, 148 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: but she was actually named after her mother. She grew 149 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: up in a very middle class Italian Catholic family and 150 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: she is one of eight children, four brothers and three sisters. 151 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: And the thing she often talks about in terms of 152 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: why she's so independent and confident and keeps her own counsel, 153 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: is that her mother died of breast cancer when she 154 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: was just six years old. And this just had a 155 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: profound impact on her in the way that you would expect. 156 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: And she's talked about this loss over the years, and 157 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: she has said that the reason why she was so 158 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: focused on running away from that part of her life 159 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: is because it really gives her this sense that you 160 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: can lose everything in an instant, your sense of security, 161 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: and so she's tried not to rely on other people. 162 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: Here she is talking about it in a nineteen ninety 163 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: five interview on ABC's Primetime Life. 164 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 3: I really did feel completely abandoned at that point in 165 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: my life and sort. 166 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 5: Of left me with a hungerl a longing, a feeling 167 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 5: of emptiness. 168 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 6: You sort of grow up being afraid to love things. 169 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: So she ends up kind of keeping her own counsel, 170 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: for lack of a better way of putting it. You know, 171 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: she has this huge family, there's all these other kids. 172 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: She ends up having a step mom she really doesn't like, 173 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: and so she kind of just withdraws into herself in 174 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: a way and decides that no one is ever going 175 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: to make her feel that unsafe and insecure again. And 176 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: that is I think the inherent origin story of Madonna. 177 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: She is this girl, this. 178 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: Little girl who lost her mother and had to kind 179 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: of raise herself in a way. 180 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: And she loves her father. She sings about her father. 181 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: She's very close to her family, but losing apparently I mean, 182 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: you know, I lost my dad when I was young. 183 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: It really does end up being kind of a defining thing. 184 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,359 Speaker 1: You never really feel whole again in some fundamental ways. 185 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: And you know, the interesting thing about Madonna is that, 186 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: you know, there's kind of this assumption that she's a 187 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: high school dropout. And in fairness, that assumption comes from 188 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: the fact that in early interviews that I've watched, she 189 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: actually said she was a high school dropout. 190 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 3: Oh really, I'm a famed high school dropout. 191 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 4: So I don't believe anything they tell you. 192 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 3: I think I read once she used to make up 193 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 3: stories like this when she talked to the press because 194 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: she thought it was funny. 195 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 1: Yes, a friend of hers told a story in this 196 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one profile in New York magazine I found 197 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: about how she would make up outrageous things to tell 198 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: reporters just because she thought it was hilarious, and then 199 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: they would laugh about these pieces when they came out. 200 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: That's so funny and also so different from the carefully 201 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 3: curated things that celebrities say now. 202 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 9: But she did actually go to college, right, She got 203 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 9: a full scholarship to the University of Michigan. I mean, 204 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 9: she's incredibly smart, and she was in the dance program there. 205 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 9: She always wanted to be a dancer, and at some 206 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 9: point during her first two years, she does an internship 207 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 9: in New York and she gets really restless, and she 208 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 9: does drop out of the University of Michigan and she 209 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 9: moves to New York in nineteen seventy eight, and she 210 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 9: says in an interview, you know, it was the first 211 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 9: time I'd ever taken a plane by myself, because she 212 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 9: drove when she came to New York the last time. 213 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 9: And it's the first time I'd ever gotten a taxi cab. 214 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 9: And I came here with thirty five dollars in my pocket. 215 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 9: And it was the bravest thing I'd ever done. 216 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: Wow, And when you think about it, it was really brave, 217 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: you know. 218 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: I mean, nobody in her family wanted her to do this. 219 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: Her father was dead set against it, and she just 220 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: really believed that she would be able to find her 221 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: own way. So she shows up in New York. She 222 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: doesn't actually know where to go, so she asks the 223 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: cab driver to take her to the center of everything. 224 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: So funny, and he drops her off in Times Square 225 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: because I guess he's like I guess this is the 226 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: center of everything. And then there is this crazy story 227 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: and she has told it a few times, so I 228 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: think this is really what happened, but it's wild to 229 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: think about. 230 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: So she's wandering around, she doesn't know what to do. 231 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: She finds like a market and she's sort of roaming 232 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: around this mark, this fair or market street fair, and 233 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: this random man comes up to her and is like, 234 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 2: why are you walking around with your suitcase? And she says, oh, well, 235 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: I don't have a place to live because I just 236 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: got here. And he's like, well, do you want to 237 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: stay with me now? 238 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: Any other person would be like no, because you're probably 239 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: like an ex murderer. Yeah, but she says yes, and 240 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: she stays with him for two weeks and he's actually 241 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: really nice to her and like makes her breakfast every 242 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: day and does. 243 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 2: Not make a move on her. 244 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: And what's so crazy about this is, she says in 245 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: an interview in nineteen ninety one, she doesn't even remember 246 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: this man's name. 247 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 2: Wow, it's so insignificant, dirt. 248 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 4: I mean, he must remember her name. 249 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean one would think, right, But also just like 250 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: he must be kind of an odd guy because he's 251 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: just like going around letting random people stay with him. 252 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: And it's probably worth noting that New York at this 253 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: time was pretty dangerous. 254 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean getting dropped off in the middle of 255 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: Times Squares, not like getting draped, having the middle of 256 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 3: Times Square to die. 257 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a wild thing that she sort of just 258 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: like accepted the kindness of this stranger and it worked 259 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: out for her. Eventually, she does find her own place, 260 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: but she's often kind of living, you know, hand to mouth. 261 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: Her first job is at the dunkin Donuts across from Bloomingdale's. 262 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: She has no money. 263 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: So when I say she finds her own place, I 264 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: mean she's often just like staying with people or like 265 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, couch surfing, and she does a lot of 266 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: odd jobs. She has so little money. And Mary Gabriel, 267 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: who just wrote this amazing biography of her, it's called 268 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 1: Madonna a Rebel Life. She describes how scrappy this time 269 00:12:58,760 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: was in her life. 270 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 7: She was so broke, and you know, people who want 271 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 7: to denigrate her story or say, oh, it's a myth, 272 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 7: you know, she was absolutely strong, broke, not once, not 273 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 7: for a little while, but for years. And you know, 274 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 7: friends who knew her at the time were appalled by 275 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 7: the way she lived. She would eat out of the 276 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 7: garbage if there was some fresh French fries in there 277 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 7: that somebody else hadn't eaten. It wasn't a big deal. 278 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 7: She stole a lot, you know, and she freely admits 279 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 7: all this stuff. She was a street kid. I mean, 280 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 7: she was borderline homeless, street kid for many years. 281 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 4: What area of the city did she live in when 282 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 4: she first got here. 283 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: Well, so she mostly lived in Alphabet City, which even 284 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: when I was in college in the nineties was no 285 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: man's land. People were like, don't go down to Alphabet City. 286 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: It started to gentrify, you know, in the years after 287 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: I graduated. But it was a really rough time, as 288 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: I said, in New York. You know, there was a 289 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 1: lot of poverty. It was a high crime era. And 290 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: you know, Madonna was really trusting, as this story that 291 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: I just told about this random guy proves, and she 292 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: says that that often worked in her favor. But she 293 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: has also said that, you know, a couple times during 294 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: this air she was sexually assaulted because she was living 295 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: in really broken down places. And there's a story in 296 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: the book where one of her friends from college who 297 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: lives in New York goes to visit her and is 298 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: afraid to touch anything because it's so disgusting. In the 299 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: apartment building where she lives. There was just this sense 300 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: that New York was kind of a dystopian nightmare. When 301 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: you would come to New York, the police department would 302 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: hand out, you know, public service announcements telling Taurus not 303 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: to leave their hotels after dark. 304 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, good evening. We're coming off the bloodiest year in the. 305 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: History of New York. Well, how bad is crime on 306 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 2: the subways today? Police said the robbers were getting robbed. 307 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 7: Nineteen eighty one is less than twenty four hours old, 308 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 7: and another nine people have been killed. 309 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: It makes you feel very helpless. 310 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: So it's just this kind of unsettling time, but it 311 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: was also a really fervent time creatively. Here's Mary Gabriel again. 312 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 7: When Madonna arrived in New York, she began hanging around 313 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 7: with people who introduced her to the pop world, and 314 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 7: that was really the beginning of Madonna, because suddenly she 315 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 7: realized that she didn't maybe want to dance to music exclusively, 316 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 7: she wanted to actually make music. And the timing was 317 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 7: so incredible because at that moment there was a revolution 318 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 7: in pop culture. The entire scene was about experimenting, and 319 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 7: that's really at the core of Madonna as an artist. 320 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 7: I mean, she thrives in an experimental environment. She took 321 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 7: every possible chance, artistically, personally, professionally, throughout every rule in 322 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 7: the rule book, and created herself and an entire genre 323 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 7: which we're now seeing, you know, we now take for 324 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 7: granted in the Beyonces and the Taylor Swifts of the world. 325 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: That's a really interesting point Mary's making because in large part, 326 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: wasn't this creative artistic time in New York also a 327 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: reaction in some ways to the Reagan era or the 328 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: conservatism of the Reagan era we talked about in Part one. 329 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. The larger conservative movement is really giving 330 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: rise to this really creative and unique scene in New 331 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: York for artists especially. And here's Mary on that. 332 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 7: After Vietnam, after Nixon was the beginning of the Reagan years, 333 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 7: there was a real artistic backlash. I think for some 334 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 7: artists it was conscious, but I think it was a 335 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 7: matter of survival. For others, you know, they had something 336 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 7: inside themselves they wanted to express, and they knew that 337 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 7: they would never be able to do it in the 338 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 7: mainstream because they were gay, because they were black, because 339 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 7: they were a woman who actually wanted to express herself, 340 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 7: not what a guy told her to express. So they 341 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 7: found a refuge and it was this you know, crazy 342 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 7: dangerous world that hadn't yet been developed by the likes 343 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 7: of Donald Trump and you know, the developers of the 344 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 7: eighties in Lower Manhattan, and it was highly political but 345 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 7: highly personal. So it's that, you know, the like what 346 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 7: the early feminist said, the personal is political. 347 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 6: They lived that life. 348 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 7: And they had no one there to criticize them because 349 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 7: nobody was paying attention to them. Is so they had 350 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 7: the freest kind of existence where anything you wanted to do, 351 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 7: as long as it didn't hurt someone was okay. Anything 352 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 7: you wanted to be was okay. It was the absolute, 353 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 7: utter expression of freedom. 354 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: So this point that Mary is making about how much 355 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: the people who Madonna is surrounded by sort of feel 356 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: outside of the mainstream is also really emphasized by the 357 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: AIDS crisis and how much Madonna is surrounded by the 358 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: AIDS crisis while she is in New York in the eighties. 359 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the reasons Reagan is so 360 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: despised by liberals of that era is how slow he 361 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: was to respond to that. And Madonna is really deeply 362 00:17:53,840 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: impacted by that, and that really informs the political identity 363 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: that she will be known for for the rest of 364 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: her career. You know, a lot of artists sort of 365 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: shy away from that. But she is entering New York 366 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: at this time where she wants to pursue dance and 367 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: she wants to pursue music, but she is also surrounded 368 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: by a lot of crisis and sadness. So what she 369 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: says about that is that she wanted to put something 370 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: into the world that was the opposite of that, that 371 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: was happy, that gives people hope, and that's why she 372 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: decides in the end that she is going to pursue 373 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,679 Speaker 1: this really creative artistic existence. 374 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 4: Okay, and so how does she do that well? 375 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: And so initially she comes to New York to pursue dance. 376 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: She thinks she's going to be a dancer. She dances 377 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: with Alvin Ailey for a little bit, but she realizes 378 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: that she's a bit old to be a dancer in 379 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: New York, which is crazy because she's in her twenties, 380 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: and that she's just not as talented as the other dancers. 381 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: She really can tell for herself that she doesn't have 382 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: what they have, so she starts to pursue music. She 383 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: has a boyfriend who is in a band, and so 384 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: she hangs out with him. So there are really these 385 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: two things that push her into a music career. At 386 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: some point, she auditions to be the backup singer for 387 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: this European disco star and his French record producers see 388 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: her and they sign her and they take her to 389 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: Paris and they're like, we're gonna make you into a star. 390 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: And initially it's kind of like a fairy tale. Even 391 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: when she talks about it, you're like, that's kind of great. 392 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: She arrives in Paris in nineteen seventy nine. She's given 393 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: this fancy apartment. She has a chauffeur and a maid 394 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: and a vocal coach and this like unlimited wardrobe budget. 395 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: And they tell her they're going to turn her into 396 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: the next Edith Poff with just like a crazy comparison. 397 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: And you know, you would think that this girl who 398 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 1: was essentially borderline homeless would look at this and be like, 399 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: my life is exactly what I want. This is amazing 400 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: but instead she hates it. She's bored, she feels creatively stifled. 401 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: She doesn't feel like they understand her and the story 402 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: she wants to tell. So she stays in Paris for 403 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: just a few months and she's like, no, I'm going 404 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: to go back to New York. 405 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: I didn't like what. 406 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 7: I was doing when I got there, so I left 407 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 7: and I never did a record there. 408 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 3: I feel like this says so much about Madonna and 409 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 3: also goes against this notion that we've talked about that 410 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 3: she was somehow made or created by like some music executive. 411 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: In fact, she literally refused to be someone else's vision. 412 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 3: So I love that about her. What happens when she 413 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 3: gets back to New York. 414 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: When she gets back to New York, she had met 415 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: this boyfriend right before she left who's in a band, 416 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: and she asks if she can stay with him, and 417 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: she decides she's going to be a pop star. She 418 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: just sort of decides because she's had this experience in 419 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: Paris and it's taught her that it's possible, but she 420 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: just doesn't want to do it the way they want 421 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: her to do it. She asks him to teach her 422 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: an instrument and he eats like, the only instrument I 423 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 1: could imagine Madonna learning first was the drums. 424 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: So he teaches her the drums. 425 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: And she literally sits in his apartment, which is, by 426 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: the way, an old synagogue that him and his brother 427 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: have converted into it loft I mean converting in quotes. Yeah, 428 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: it's like very much like a bohemian existence. And she 429 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: just listens to Elvis Costello records and she tries to 430 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: emulate the drumming. That's how she teaches herself to drum. 431 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: But she does it all the time. Like when she 432 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: does things, she does not do them by half. Yeah, 433 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: she's just like really intense about it. And at first 434 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: she joins her boyfriend's band, and she quickly realizes though 435 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: that she wants to be driving the vision. She wants 436 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 1: to be writing the songs. She wants to be the 437 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: lead singer. And you know, the boyfriend's brother who's in 438 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: the band with him, is like, why is this woman 439 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: like suddenly in charge? So eventually she's just like, this 440 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: isn't gonna work. She's incredibly ambitious. And the other thing 441 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: that they say about her, the people who are around 442 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: her at this time, is that she was always pursuing 443 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: music commercially. She was never like, you know, I just 444 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: want to sing and like, yeah, play in bands like 445 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: for these like little venues. She was always like calling 446 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: record producers, she was calling agent. She was constantly trying 447 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: to figure out how she was going to be a 448 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: huge success because she knew that's what she wanted. She 449 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: didn't want to just be in the indie scene. And 450 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: this era is also kind of defined by the fact 451 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: that she just leaves behind this string of broken hearts. 452 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: You know, there's always these men who help her in 453 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 1: some way. Her boyfriend who helps her get into the 454 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: band and teaches her to play music. There'll be another 455 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,199 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend who moves to New York and becomes her 456 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: songwriting partner for a number of years, who's like very 457 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: integral to her success. 458 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 3: Waita, you said she did Basquiacht too, right? That feels 459 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 3: like so perfectly New York of the early eighties. 460 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 2: Yes, And actually there's a funny side note. 461 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: There's a painting of best yachts from nineteen eighty two 462 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,239 Speaker 1: called a Panel of Experts, and it actually depicts a 463 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: fight between Madonna and one of his. 464 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 2: Exes whose name was Venus. Randomly, so you might think 465 00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 2: it's not about actual people. 466 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 1: But the funny thing is that Madonna's name has a 467 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: copyright symbol on it, which you know, many have interpreted 468 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: as his awareness of how famous she. 469 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 4: Would go on to be so interesting. 470 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: And in fact, he supposedly told art dealer Larry Gagoshian 471 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: that Madonna was going to be the biggest pop star 472 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: in the world, so he must have really believed. 473 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 4: That, h okay. 474 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: And it's because of Oscot that she has her graffiti 475 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 3: tag right, yes, boy toy, yeah, which is funny because 476 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: clearly she's none of these men's toy. 477 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: No, she is very much nobody's toy. 478 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: And you know, she very actively owns her sexuality, and 479 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: that's another sort of big thing that is different about Madonna. 480 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: Up until Madonna, you were allowed as an artist to 481 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: be sexy. You were supposed to be beautiful and sexy 482 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: as a female artist, but you weren't supposed to be sexual, right, 483 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: You were an object And the music industry was very 484 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: much a male oriented industry, was like a very rock 485 00:23:56,600 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: and roll industry for men by men, and the we're 486 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: supposed to be men, So as a woman, you were 487 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: supposed to appeal to men, but Madonna always refuse to 488 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: accept that. Like she was like, I want my fans 489 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: to be women. I want my fans to be queer. 490 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: I sure, fine, if men like my music, that's fine. 491 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: But I'm not making music for men to enjoy. And 492 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: so even her first single, which she ends up releasing 493 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: in eighty two, is a dance single, right, it's for 494 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: the gay clubs that she hangs out in, and within 495 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: a month it's number three on the Billboard Dance Club Charts. 496 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: And that's because she's literally going to the clubs where 497 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 1: she hangs out, and she's making friends with the DJs 498 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: and sometimes dating them, and she is getting them to 499 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: play her songs. You know, she is like doing what 500 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: we now call retail marketing. Yeah, she's an absolute operator. 501 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: She is not leaving her success up to chance. She 502 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: is incredibly ambitious and she is going to make sure 503 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: that her music gets played. And once it's played, people 504 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: love it and they start requesting it, and that that's 505 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: why it becomes so popular. 506 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 3: Obviously, she goes on to have this incredible, incredible career 507 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: that could be many many podcasts devoted to that, and 508 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 3: probably are some, yes, but what are the moments we 509 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 3: should remember or highlight in terms of just what a 510 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 3: huge impact Madonna had and has on music and culture. 511 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think there's just so many things 512 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 1: you could say if you were trying to convince someone 513 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: who didn't understand how big an impact Madonna had, that 514 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: would tell you who she was in the space of music. 515 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: You know, she's widely referred to as the Queen of pop, 516 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: and that's because she is to this day, the highest 517 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: charting female musician. She's the highest grossing female touring musician 518 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: in history. She's the first woman to ever accumulate one 519 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: billion dollars in concert revenue. Madonna has thirty eight top 520 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: ten hits on the Billboard Charts. The Beatles are behind 521 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: her with thirty four, you know. I mean that is 522 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: just incredible when you think about it, Like, yeah, we 523 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: look at Taylor Swift this year, and I remember being 524 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: at a dinner party recently where someone said, and everyone 525 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: agreed with them, that Taylor Swift is the biggest musical 526 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: act in history, and I was just like, I don't. 527 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 3: Know that, Yeah, because Madonna exists in over decades, over. 528 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: Decades, and she's done so many of the things that 529 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: we look at Taylor doing and we're like, oh my god, 530 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,399 Speaker 1: that's incredible. Madonna did these things in the eighties and 531 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,640 Speaker 1: nineties when there were no you know, mentors, there were 532 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: no women you could look to and be like, oh, 533 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: that's a career I could have. You know, she was 534 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: really inventing the space of being a superstar pop icon. 535 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: And you know, she has sold four hundred million records worldwide. 536 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: She is certified by the Guinness World Records as the 537 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: biggest selling female recording artist of all time. You know, 538 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: more than Taylor Swift, more than Beyonce, more than Rihanna, 539 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: more than Mariah Carey and that Christmas song I think, 540 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: but sell a bajillion records over Christmas, and I you know, 541 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: love all those artists. 542 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 2: I think they're amazing. 543 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: I'm not taking anything away from Taylor or Beyonce, but 544 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: I do think sometimes the absolute legend of Madonna, just 545 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: what a legacy she has left in music for these 546 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: other artists, is sometimes kind of forgotten. Yeah, because now 547 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: everybody just talks about, you know, her age and what. 548 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 10: She looks like, and how laid her concerts starts and 549 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 10: how late her concerts start exactly like it's just I 550 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 10: think easy to see her as tabloid fair now, but 551 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 10: Madonna is so much more than that, you know. 552 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 1: Her legacy has been studied by sociologists and historians. There 553 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: are college courses were being taught about Madonna long before, 554 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,679 Speaker 1: long before Taylor's Swift, you know. And to give you 555 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: an idea of her cultural references, there are so many 556 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: separate Wikipedia entries for the cultural impact of Madonna. 557 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 4: Oh that's it. 558 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: I could not count them all, Like, I can't tell 559 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: you how many there are, because every time I would 560 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: look for one, I would find another one. There's separate 561 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: entry from Madonna and sexuality. There's a separate entrance from 562 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: Madonna and religion. There's a separate entrance from Madonna as 563 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: a gay. 564 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 3: Icon like that even like a fun marker for our times, yeah, exactly. 565 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: And not to mention, there's a Wikipedia entrance for every album. 566 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: There's a Wikipedia entrance for many of her songs. Like 567 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: she's literally too much. 568 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 2: To encapsulate in a single web page, you know. 569 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: And in that era of the eighties and nineties, really 570 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: she's often mentioned with Michael Jackson and Prince as the 571 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: three main stars of the eighties. You know, they were 572 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: really considered almost like a trinity, and they defined the era. 573 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: And when she topped the Billboard charts with Like a 574 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: Virgin in eighty four, there was an eight month period 575 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: where she and Prince and Michael Jackson just kept switching 576 00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: off between Like a Virgin, Purple Rain, and Thriller. And 577 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that all three of those artists were 578 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: born in the same year. They were all born in 579 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight, and they were all born in Middle America. 580 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: And they would really, these three people, these three amazing artists, 581 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: rewrite what it meant to be a musician and to 582 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: be a success in the music business because obviously Prince 583 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: and Michael Jackson, as black men, also really fought against 584 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: a lot of tides and were very much not seen 585 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: as mainstream when they entered music. 586 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 587 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 3: I mean, in some ways, what Prince and Michael Jackson 588 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: did for black musicians, Madonna really did for women. 589 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, she did. And you know, this is another thing 590 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: I talked to Mary Gabriel about. Here she is again. 591 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 7: At that time in the pop world, women were not 592 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 7: taken seriously. They were almost like the performers of the fifties, 593 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 7: you know, female singers who sang lyrics that men had 594 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 7: generally written in front of a band of men, So 595 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 7: they were just an ornament and usually had to be 596 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 7: a sexy ornament. And their audience wasn't girls. Their audience 597 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 7: was men, and so everything was designed to titillate the 598 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 7: male universe. And I think that's what's critical to Madonna's story. 599 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 7: There were female artists who were strong and wonderful, like 600 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 7: Chrissy Hind, but they were always on the cutting edge. 601 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 7: They were in the avant garde, and Madonna took that 602 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 7: all of that information and made it mainstream and brought 603 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 7: it to pop. 604 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 3: I think what's so cool in retrospect is that, especially 605 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 3: in those early years when Madonna broke all of these 606 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,239 Speaker 3: barriers to make it into the mainstream, the music that 607 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: she was making and sending out into the world really 608 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 3: was for the girls who loved her and wanted to 609 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: be her, and the gays who adored her. 610 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: Yes, those girls want to bees. 611 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: They were really her first fans, and she gave them 612 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: a sense that they could feel free, that they could 613 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: be as free as she was. 614 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 6: And here's Mary again on that. In her first years, 615 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 6: up until I would say about eighty six eighty seven, 616 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 6: she was singing to young women, and what she was 617 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 6: saying to them in really the most direct language possible. 618 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 6: You know, I have had the dreams that you have. 619 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 6: I know who you are, sitting in your suburban bedrooms, 620 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 6: dreaming big, but knowing because you were born a girl, 621 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 6: you're never going to have the opportunities your brother did. 622 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 6: I know because I was you and look what I did. 623 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 6: And so that was Madonna's message. It was at the 624 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 6: doctrine of liberation. According to Madonna. 625 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 7: You know, there was second wave feminism, which had been 626 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 7: in the seventies and was dead by that time. Madonna 627 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 7: really did in every way introduce third wave feminism with 628 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 7: her early performances in the early eighties, because it was 629 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 7: absolutely about freedom. It was about have no fear, break 630 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 7: through rules, be who you want to be, you know, 631 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 7: and if you need help, I'm here. 632 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: I want to bring us back to the original moment 633 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: we started with, which was on that stage, that VMA 634 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: stage in nineteen eighty four. Madonna, the wedding dress and 635 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 3: the seventeen footcake and the way that she pushed boundaries 636 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 3: and as a product of that really redefined what it 637 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 3: meant to be a star and also what was possible 638 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: as a star. 639 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really true. I think the thing about Madonna 640 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: that is really interesting and very unlike almost any other 641 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: artists operating today, is that she never separated her work 642 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: from her politics. Everything she did, every controversial stand she 643 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: did while also being a commercial artist. She wasn't trying 644 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: to just push boundaries. She was trying to push boundaries 645 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: into the mainstream. 646 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 11: You know. 647 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: She wanted the success because she felt like that spotlight 648 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: helped her. And the first sort of great example of 649 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: that is that at the height of her fame, she 650 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: really embraces and celebrates queer identity because she feels that 651 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: the queer community is what helped her become a star. 652 00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: Right. 653 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: She became rest star in those dance clubs where queer 654 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: and black kids were finding a way to feel safe 655 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 1: in a world that didn't feel very safe for them 656 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: at that time. You know, it was the middle of 657 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: the AIDS crisis. And so when she becomes a start, 658 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: right from the beginning, she's making sure that people know 659 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: that she is very much supporting that community. 660 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean worth noting that she was talking 661 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: about it in a way that, you know, it's far 662 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: different from the way that a lot of artists kind 663 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 3: of pander or perform their allyship or their wokeism today, Like, 664 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 3: she was not queerbaiting. She was genuinely being political and 665 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 3: what she was talking about. 666 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, celebrating and embracing those issues was just fundamental to 667 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: who Madonna was, right because, as Mary Gabriel says, those 668 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: early years in New York, the gay community was her world. 669 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: They were her best friends. That's who she was spending 670 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: her time with. Those were the people who were celebrating 671 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: and supporting her. So Madonna was really deeply affect by 672 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: what happened with AIDS. 673 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 7: By nineteen eighty three, it was undeniably murdering tens of 674 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 7: thousands of men, and she was saying her best friend's dying. 675 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 7: And so rather than run away from that, she embraced 676 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 7: the cause. And it was for if you can imagine, 677 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 7: for a rock pop world, which is actually based on 678 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 7: the idea of sexuality, to associate yourself with a sexually 679 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 7: transmitted disease is suicide. I mean, rockers wouldn't go near 680 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 7: it because they were all about dicks and you know, screwing. 681 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 7: You know, young women didn't go near it because to 682 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 7: be talking about homosexuality or gay sex in Ronald Reagan's America, 683 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 7: when he didn't even mention the word AIDS for five 684 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 7: years as it decimated a huge part of the population, 685 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 7: was just a no go in his Christian world, his 686 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 7: Christian political world. So for Madonna to come out and say, 687 00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 7: I'm going to talk about it, I'm going to sing 688 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 7: about it. I'm going to have safe sex, you know, 689 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 7: unadorned safe sex brochures in my albums, and she talked 690 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 7: about anal sex. She talked about hardcore stuff that most 691 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 7: people didn't go near. You know, if they didn't talk 692 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 7: about AIDS, they definitely didn't talk about the particulars of 693 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 7: how you get it. 694 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: And so she was. 695 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 7: Fearless with that, but because it was because she knew 696 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 7: it was a matter of life and death. And so 697 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 7: throughout her career she's done that. She's waited deep into 698 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 7: battles that other people didn't want to go near because 699 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 7: she frankly thinks that the causes are more important than 700 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 7: her career, and she also knows from experience that there 701 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 7: are enough people who will appreciate the bold stand she 702 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 7: takes that she has nothing to lose, and at a 703 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 7: certain point she had nothing. 704 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: To lose because she was so powerful, and that power 705 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,760 Speaker 1: that Mary is talking about, you know, she is always 706 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: using to kind of further the conversation. So in nineteen 707 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: ninety one, she makes her groundbreaking documentary Truth or Dare, 708 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: which just FYI was produced by Harvey Weinstein because every 709 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: time we do one of these stories, some horrible man 710 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: has to it here and here he is. And that movie, 711 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, was meant to be just like a concert film, 712 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: but instead it ends up being really about her life 713 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: and her backup dancers. And it's one of the first 714 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: times that a mainstream film, documentary or otherwise really shows 715 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: gay people sort of just living their lives in a 716 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: happy and care free way. And it's considered, you know, 717 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: a little political, even though it's not intended in any 718 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: way to be a political movie. 719 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually quite powerful in its subtlety, especially in 720 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 3: an era when there was so much homophobia and fear 721 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 3: around AIDS. So it's quite subversive in how ordinary she's 722 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 3: treating it. 723 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much, and I think, you know, she continues 724 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: to do that. Her current tour celebration feels like it's 725 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: very much a statement in support of the LGBT community. 726 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: Her current show just really makes queer and transcultural the focus, 727 00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: and she's really doing that so that she can support 728 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: and affirm LGBTQ. 729 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 3: Writes, and which honestly isn't a small gesture right now 730 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 3: with what's happening politically, but it's actually making me think 731 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 3: that what feels even more radical about Madonna is the 732 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 3: fact that she is doing all of this and just 733 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 3: continuing to exist and perform at the age of sixty five. 734 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this, and sometimes she's 735 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: talked about this, right. One of her greatest frustrations is 736 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: that instead of talking about her art now, all everybody 737 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: does is talk about her age. And that's because in 738 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: our society, women over a certain age are expected, in 739 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: some ways to go away quietly and accept that they 740 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: no longer have anything to offer, and Madonna just refuses 741 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: to accept that. The fact that she chooses to keep 742 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: making music and touring and living loudly and embracing the 743 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: issues she cares about is huge. What has she said 744 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: about this, well, Interestingly, a few years ago, when she 745 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 1: was receiving the Billboard Women of the Year award, she 746 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: essentially said that her very survival and endurance is probably 747 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: her most revolutionary act, and I think this is a 748 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: really good place to end it, with her having the 749 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: last word. 750 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 11: People say that I'm so controversial, but I think the 751 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 11: most controversial thing I have. 752 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 2: Ever done is to stick around. 753 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 4: To the doubters, the naysayers. 754 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 11: To everyone who gave me hell and said I could not, 755 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 11: that I would not, that I must not. 756 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 5: Your resistance made me stronger, made me push harder, made 757 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 5: me the fighter that I am today, made me the 758 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 5: woman that I am today. 759 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: In Retrospect, Thanks for listening. 760 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: Is there a pop culture moment you can't stop thinking 761 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: about and want us to explore in a future episode. 762 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: Email us at Inretropod at gmail dot com or find 763 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,799 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod. 764 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 3: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 765 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 3: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 766 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 3: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 767 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 3: which we may or may not delete. 768 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 769 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books Feminist, 770 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: Fike Club, and This Is eighteen. 771 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,760 Speaker 3: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 772 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 3: Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 773 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 3: engineer and sound designer. Emily Meronov is our producer. Sharon 774 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 3: Atia is our researcher and associate producer. 775 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the Media is Cindy Levy. Our 776 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stemp and Katrina Norbel. 777 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,200 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Our mixing engineer is Amanda 778 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. Additional editing help from Mary we are your 779 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: hosts Susie Bannoncarum and Jessica Bennett. 780 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 4: We are also executive producers. 781 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 3: For even more, check out in retropod dot com