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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A young mom to be

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Speaker 1: is dead. Why was her killer released from jail and

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Speaker 1: within hours killed her? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A

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Speaker 1: week ago today, Alex Wahardo allegedly punched his wife in

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Speaker 1: the face, then days later she found their cat dead.

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Speaker 1: He was charged. The DA's office asked for a high bond,

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Speaker 1: but instead the judge let him out on what's called

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Speaker 1: a PR bond. Basically, you don't have to post any

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Speaker 1: money to get out of jail, just your word that

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Speaker 1: you'll appear later. With that, he was out PR personal

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Speaker 1: recognisance in other words, kind of like the honor system. Again.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories and thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nations Series one

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Speaker 1: eleven with me an all star panel to break it

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Speaker 1: down and put it back together again. Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My

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Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon and the star of Poisonous Liaisons on

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Speaker 1: True Crime Network. Josh Bruger, Pasadena, Texas Chief of Police,

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Speaker 1: a special guest. Karen Start, renowned psychologists joining out of Asada,

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Speaker 1: Manhattan at Karen starton Dot com Brian Massola, the lawyer

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Speaker 1: for this gorgeous young mom to be mom fighting for justice.

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Speaker 1: You can find him at Mossola Lawfirm dot com and

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Speaker 1: special guests. In addition to the chief of Police, Melanie

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Speaker 1: in Finger, the mother of Caitlin. She is now a

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Speaker 1: victim's rights advocate and you can find her at Caitlin's

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Speaker 1: Law dot org. First of all, to Brandy Keioncini, owner

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Speaker 1: of The Katie Times, Brandy, I don't understand how someone

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Speaker 1: is put in jail for a violent offense. They get

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Speaker 1: bonded out by some who is this judge? Anyway, that

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Speaker 1: judge needs to be off the bench he or she

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Speaker 1: and then the guy comes and murders this mom to be.

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Speaker 1: First of all, what judge did that push for Bell

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Speaker 1: reform across the country and in Harris County a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, there was a ruling that said that

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Speaker 1: the Harris County Bell process was unfair to those people

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Speaker 1: who were poor because if they couldn't make the bail,

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Speaker 1: then they were stuck in jail if they if they

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Speaker 1: were indigent, had had no money. So there was a

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Speaker 1: lot of Bell reform and this was part of that

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Speaker 1: Bell reform I guess I'll Q and A with myself.

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Speaker 1: It's judge Callen. Yes, But I think what you're trying

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Speaker 1: to tell me, Brandy KEI on Senian with a lot

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Speaker 1: of words, is that the judge was bound by the

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Speaker 1: new Bell Reform. Is that what you're getting out is

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Speaker 1: that what you're saying, Let me understand this. You can

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Speaker 1: commit a violent crime and walk free. What is exactly

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Speaker 1: the Bell Reform? You can beat somebody smitherings and you

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Speaker 1: don't have to post a bill. Well, the intense for

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Speaker 1: the Bell Reform was that if it was a non

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Speaker 1: violent crimer, if it was a minor offense, they could

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Speaker 1: get out on a personal recognisance fund, which means you

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Speaker 1: put up no matter. I just explained that if you

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Speaker 1: would just focus on the question, I would appreciate it

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Speaker 1: because I really want to get to the chief of

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Speaker 1: police and to this victim of mother. You know, let

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Speaker 1: me go to the chief right now. Josh Bruger is

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Speaker 1: with us, the chief of police in Pasadena, Texas. Chief,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this girl is dead, the unborn baby dead

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Speaker 1: because of Bell Reform? Or was it explain to me

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Speaker 1: the Bell Reform there in Pasadena? Did this judge have

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Speaker 1: to let the guy out. Excuse me, chief, Chief Chief.

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Speaker 1: I very rarely get to interrupt the chief of police.

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Speaker 1: But hold on, Brandy keion Cini. I asked you what

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Speaker 1: judge did this, and you launch into something about Bell reform.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm finding out the judge didn't have to do this,

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Speaker 1: So I gotta figure out what the hey is happening

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Speaker 1: and why Judge Callen is still on. Why is it

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Speaker 1: that you're telling me, Chief Bruger that the judge did

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Speaker 1: not have to let him out. So as part of

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Speaker 1: the bill settlement, there were certain carve out offenses where

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Speaker 1: the pr bunds are mandated. Assault on a family member

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Speaker 1: was not one of those. Okay, there you go. Why

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Speaker 1: did the judge r R release on your own recognizance? Why?

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Speaker 1: That's a fantastic question. I think that we're all wondering

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Speaker 1: that you look at somebody like Alex Ghardo a committing

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Speaker 1: committing and said earlier, you know, literally beat Melanie, a

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Speaker 1: beautiful daughter to a pull up on multiple occasions, and

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Speaker 1: every sign was there that the guy was going to

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Speaker 1: continue to commit crimes, and everybody just ignored all the sides.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely inexcusable. Uh. You know, people that uh commit

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Speaker 1: these kind of credit to say we're going to come

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Speaker 1: back to Core on time based on our own word,

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Speaker 1: where the people word mean nothing, to have no honor um.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's supposed to be for violent offenders. Clearly

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Speaker 1: what the guy was doing with violent You know, we

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Speaker 1: were sold this whole story of bill reform being for

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Speaker 1: people that were sitting in jail that couldn't pay a warrant.

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Speaker 1: Obviously it turned out to be anything but that. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to go back to the Chief of Police,

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Speaker 1: Josh Bruger, the chief of Police is taking time to

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Speaker 1: join us to try to explain what the hate happened

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Speaker 1: and why Caitlin is dead and it's not the police's fault. Look,

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Speaker 1: I know bad things have happened. There are some bad

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Speaker 1: apples within the police force, and they make everybody else

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Speaker 1: look terrible. I hate it when a prosecutor is unethical

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Speaker 1: because it makes all prosecutors look nefarious and evil. But

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Speaker 1: the police in this case did everything they could. This gay.

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Speaker 1: The cops put him in jail, They try to keep

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Speaker 1: him in jail, but oh no, Judge Callen, James Callen

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Speaker 1: had another plan. I mean, how demoralizing chief is it

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Speaker 1: for your men and women who go out they and

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Speaker 1: you know, when you go out on a domestic call,

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Speaker 1: you're risking your life because that's the ways when you

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Speaker 1: get between a man and a woman or a boyfriend

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Speaker 1: girlfriend and they're having some volatile dispute, one of them,

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Speaker 1: usually the man will shoot the cop. Absolutely, but your

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Speaker 1: cops go out there, they get him, they break it up,

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Speaker 1: they save her life, they put him in jail, and

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Speaker 1: then he gets out. It's bad. And that's the frustrating

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Speaker 1: part for the officers is they tried to do the

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Speaker 1: right thing. The A's officers tried to do the right

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Speaker 1: thing with a high bond in the system in this

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Speaker 1: case failed, Caitlin. And that's the hard part is how

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Speaker 1: do you continue to motivate police officer should go out

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Speaker 1: there and do the right thing when on the back

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Speaker 1: end the right thing isn't gonna happen, but when it

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Speaker 1: begins to affect public safety. Whoa who told you to

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Speaker 1: stay in your lane? Who said that, I've had judges

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Speaker 1: told me to stay in my lane? Was Calvin? One

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Speaker 1: of them? He was out one of them that I

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Speaker 1: know of. You know what, I can't believe a judge

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Speaker 1: you know everything I want to say right now I

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Speaker 1: can't say on air Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we are talking about the death of a gorgeous young lady,

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Speaker 1: a pregnant lady, a mom to be joining me right now?

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Speaker 1: Is her mother? First? Take a listen to our friend

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Speaker 1: Marla Carter at kt r K ABC thirteen. Agent alarm

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Speaker 1: has to do with mister Galhardo's pass. On May fifth,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, mister Gualhardo was arrested by the Houston Police

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Speaker 1: Department for d WI in failures stopping give information at

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Speaker 1: a crash scene. Mister Garhardo was released on a pr

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Speaker 1: bond and at the time of the murder this past Saturday,

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Speaker 1: those are still active cases. On July thirty first, twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: passing a police anywhere mister Guihardo and his wife lived,

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Speaker 1: he killed. During the course of that investigation, it was

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Speaker 1: a termed that mister Guihardo had assaulted his wife, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: and he was arrested for Class A assault Family violence.

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Speaker 1: Distric Attorney's office filed a motion for a high bond

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Speaker 1: of fifty thousand dollars as well as a protective order

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Speaker 1: preventing mister Guihardo from being near his wife. This FSGI.

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Speaker 1: Mister Guihardo was given a pr bond for the assault

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Speaker 1: and was released on August first, twenty nineteen, with no

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Speaker 1: bond conditions. It was just approximately eighteen hours later that

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Speaker 1: he went to the apartment and killed his wife an

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Speaker 1: unborn child. Guys, you were hearing, not the reporter Marla

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Speaker 1: Carter at KTRK, but you were hearing his police chief.

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Speaker 1: And that is the fact scenario. Eighteen hours after he

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Speaker 1: gets out, thanks to Judge James Callen, he murders Caitlyn

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Speaker 1: and now with me her mother Melanie in finger missing finger.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with Is she there, miss same finger?

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Speaker 1: Are you there? Thank you for being with us. Thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. Tell me about the day that you

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Speaker 1: learned your daughter had been killed. I was actually working

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Speaker 1: and and I was trying to get in contact with Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: had called her numerous times. She had just picked up

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Speaker 1: her her baby at the time was eight months old, Alexis.

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Speaker 1: She was also pregnant that she was a mom also,

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Speaker 1: and she had picked up Alexis from my house earlier

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Speaker 1: that morning. And I was trying to call her and

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Speaker 1: text her, and I could not get in touch with

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Speaker 1: her and us as a mom of a child that

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Speaker 1: was in an abusive relationship, I mean, I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure many parents can relate. I lived at the pins

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Speaker 1: and needles. I was constantly worried, constantly anxious. So with

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Speaker 1: her not answering her phone and not texting me back,

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Speaker 1: I immediately knew something was wrong. I knew either they

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Speaker 1: were that he had gotten out. I thought I feared

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Speaker 1: he was going to get out. I didn't. I thought

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Speaker 1: someone was going to bail him out. So I feared

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Speaker 1: that he possibly got out and they got in a fight,

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Speaker 1: and he had taken her phone from her, because that's

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Speaker 1: what he always did, and so I kept texting or

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Speaker 1: calling her. Then an unknown number was calling me when

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Speaker 1: I was I was in my phone. My parents didn't panic,

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Speaker 1: and I said, someone's calling. I need to answer this

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Speaker 1: phone call, I said, because it could be hurt her

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Speaker 1: neighbor's house on their phone. And that's what I told

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Speaker 1: my parents, like I just assumed she was on someone

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Speaker 1: else's phone. And when I answered the call, the person

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Speaker 1: on the other end actually was like ms miss in

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Speaker 1: finger and I'm like who is this? And they're like,

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Speaker 1: have you as no one called you about Caitlin, And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, just you just know as a mom, you

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Speaker 1: just going to complaint? Um, just I was just throught.

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Speaker 1: I mean I just knew. And I started screaming, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, where it is is? She in the in the

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Speaker 1: sheave and said this isn't how we wanted to do this.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have to call you back in five minutes,

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Speaker 1: And I said, what are you talking about? Like they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't tell me anything. And I had to literally sit

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Speaker 1: them before and screen for five minutes and waiting them

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Speaker 1: to call me back to tell me that she was

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Speaker 1: stabbed to death and was pronounced that at the scene

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Speaker 1: at the medical center. And I didn't even know he

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Speaker 1: was out, Like I didn't even know he was out

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Speaker 1: of jail. Um, I didn't even know what pr buttons were.

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Speaker 1: I immediately went to blame, you know, I thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe someone in his family had led him out. We

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Speaker 1: had all agreed we didn't think anyone was going to

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Speaker 1: bail him out. So, um, I just was angry. I

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Speaker 1: was I just couldn't believe how this could happen. And

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Speaker 1: then I come, I come home and I hear the

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Speaker 1: news and I you know, I hear Brewer on the TV,

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Speaker 1: and I'm realizing, oh my god, he didn't just get

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Speaker 1: bailed out. He didn't get down out and he got

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Speaker 1: out for free. Like they what happened to my inssice system,

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Speaker 1: Like what happened to putting people in jail for the

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Speaker 1: crime they commit? He was a violent offender. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just mind boggling. Angering It was so it was

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Speaker 1: just like I felt like she was a domestically abused

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Speaker 1: woman who actually did what we begged her to do.

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Speaker 1: For the year and a half she was with him.

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Speaker 1: We begged her, you know, to press charges. We begged

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Speaker 1: her to send it to her abuser, and she does

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Speaker 1: this to get m for them to slap him on

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Speaker 1: the wrist and let him out to murder her and

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Speaker 1: her unborn child. And it just was such a slap

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Speaker 1: in the face from all the abuse women out there,

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Speaker 1: and people wonder why these abuse them and don't go

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Speaker 1: to you know, I have their abusers arrested. I mean,

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Speaker 1: because liquid happens, and they just they let him out

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Speaker 1: to murder her. It's just it's just it's mind boggling.

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Speaker 1: It's so angry, and I will live the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life, I mean to you know, and just trying

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Speaker 1: to make a change. And I have a new mission

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Speaker 1: to make sure that this does not this does not

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Speaker 1: keep happening, and it's just it's very sad. Listen, finger,

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Speaker 1: I'm a victim of violent crime and it changed my

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Speaker 1: life forever because of life fiance being murdered just before

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Speaker 1: our wedding many years ago. I couldn't. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: impact lasts for your whole life. I could never consider

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Speaker 1: trying again thirty years past, I still would not get married.

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Speaker 1: I finally did it, and my daughter and I almost

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Speaker 1: died in childbirth because I waited so long because of

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Speaker 1: Keith's murder to try marriage again that my daughter almost died.

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Speaker 1: My little girl is about seven years younger than yours.

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Speaker 1: And when I hear you speak, all I can think

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Speaker 1: about is my girl Lucy and my son John David,

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Speaker 1: and the pain you are suffering, and the outrage because

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Speaker 1: it's so easily could have been avoided. You said they

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Speaker 1: let him out to go murder her. Guys, take a

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Speaker 1: listen to Texas Police Chief Breuger describing what happened our

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Speaker 1: Cut six on Saturday between four and four thirty pm passing,

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Speaker 1: and police officers responded to an apartment at nineteen eleven

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Speaker 1: Saltamore in response to a nine to one one call.

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Speaker 1: The nine one one caller told the dispatcher that he

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Speaker 1: had killed his wife and needed help. Responding officers arrived

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Speaker 1: contacted the male subject that had called nine on one,

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Speaker 1: who was identified as Alex Quahardo, deserted to have blood

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Speaker 1: on his pants. The defendant confessed to the initial officers

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Speaker 1: that he had killed his wife and that she was

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Speaker 1: in the apartment. Officers entered the apartment found the victim

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Speaker 1: stabbed approximately twenty times across her body, several of those

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Speaker 1: wounds to her abdomen. The victim was transported to the hospital,

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Speaker 1: where several hours later she was pronounced deceased. The victim

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Speaker 1: was found to be approximately four months pregnant. The defendant

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Speaker 1: confessed to stabbing and killing his wife, Caitlin Quahardo, over

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Speaker 1: marital issues, and as it has been reported by the media,

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Speaker 1: he stated he did not want another man raising his

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Speaker 1: baby and that was the reason he stabbedished so many

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Speaker 1: times in the stomach. Two Chief of Police Josh Bruger

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Speaker 1: joining us out of Pasadena, Texas Chief with all of

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Speaker 1: the stabs, many of them at her stomach. That tells

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Speaker 1: me he was absolutely targeting not just her but the

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Speaker 1: unborn baby. Absolutely, yes, terrible chief. I know that he admitted,

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Speaker 1: he confessed, he was covered in blood at the scene,

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Speaker 1: But what was his demeanor? Was he in his right mind?

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Speaker 1: Could he speak coherently? He gave a motive for the murder?

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Speaker 1: Did he not? He did? And he was coherent and

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Speaker 1: he was able to explain to the officers what had happened,

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Speaker 1: give them some details. He even, by all accounts, he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, at his normal mental faculties about him. Time

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace Guys, a beautiful young girl, just

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Speaker 1: twenty is now dead, stabbed to death, pregnant because Judge

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Speaker 1: Callan let her abuser out on an rore released on

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Speaker 1: your own recognisance. One thing her mother keeps telling me,

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Speaker 1: Melanie in Finger is that at first she thought who

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Speaker 1: bonded him out? And don't they know better? But miss

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Speaker 1: in Finger, how shocked were you to learn nobody bonded

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Speaker 1: him out? The judge did it all on his own. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it just it was beyond me. I mean, I just

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. I was hearing I mean I didn't

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Speaker 1: even know that. I didn't know that was possible. I

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Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't I just thought, what word to justice?

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Speaker 1: Like where what are these you know, like like Ruger

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Speaker 1: I mean, and all these policemen they're out putting their

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Speaker 1: lives on the line to arrest through criminals and for

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Speaker 1: what you know, so they can go back out and

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Speaker 1: murder people. It's just it's a maddening to Brandy key

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Speaker 1: on Seni, owner of The Katie Times, joining us there

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Speaker 1: from KAD Texas. Brandy keion Cini, where is the defendant now?

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Speaker 1: I hope the state is seeking the death penalty, that

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Speaker 1: he was charged with capital murder and as far as

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Speaker 1: I know, he's still in jail waiting trial. And you know,

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Speaker 1: another important issue to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonall

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Speaker 1: State University, now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on the

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Speaker 1: True Crime Network, Joe Scott. Yes, as you heard the

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Speaker 1: chiefs say, he spoke coherently, he admitted what he did.

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Speaker 1: He even gave the motive for murder. But come trial time,

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Speaker 1: since he's been caught red handed, he could easily back

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Speaker 1: up with an insanity claim. But the fact that or

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Speaker 1: accident or voluntary manslaughter. But twenty stab wounds. You have

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Speaker 1: time in twenty stab wounds to form intent, which can

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Speaker 1: be formed in the blink of an eye. And what

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Speaker 1: other forensic evidence will the state bring forward to prove

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Speaker 1: a murder case and it darned well be capital murder?

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Speaker 1: What's the forensics Joe Scott. Yeah, well, let me tell

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Speaker 1: you this. You go back in time, Nancy, to these

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Speaker 1: times when she has been beaten before that data that

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Speaker 1: they collected for treatment relative to the injury she had

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Speaker 1: obviously sustained, are going to go to establish a pattern

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Speaker 1: of physical abuse relative to this poor woman and this

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Speaker 1: unborn child. And so you're going to marry that up

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Speaker 1: with the blood obviously that we talked about that was

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Speaker 1: on his body. You know, you can say all day

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Speaker 1: long that you know he was crazy or that he

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Speaker 1: was acting you know, abnormally. My favorite one is when

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Speaker 1: they always say, well, I blacked out and I don't remember.

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Speaker 1: You don't remember stabbing someone that you claim to care

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Speaker 1: for and create a childhood, You don't remember stabbing them

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Speaker 1: twenty times? Because you're right, this is not something that

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Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, happens. You know, it's something

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Speaker 1: he has something really interesting right there. Because back to you,

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Speaker 1: Chief Bruger, if he had been acting abnormally, why would

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Speaker 1: the judge have let him out if he showed any

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Speaker 1: signs of mental illness. That's a great point. You would

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Speaker 1: like to think they wouldn't. So when you have a

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Speaker 1: bond hearing, the judge directs the defendant that he's got

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Speaker 1: to follow certain conditions and so forth. The judge had

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Speaker 1: a chance to look at this guy and question him

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Speaker 1: before he let him out. I mean, back to you,

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Speaker 1: Miss Infinger, mother of Caitlin. Now you can find out

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Speaker 1: all about her at Caitlin's Law dot org. Miss Infinger.

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Speaker 1: This guy and crazy, that is a load of bs.

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Speaker 1: That's a technical legal term, but I predict it may

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Speaker 1: rear its ugly edit trial. Yeah, he's definitely not crazy

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Speaker 1: and like and as they were saying, I mean there

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Speaker 1: is we have so much back in as far as

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Speaker 1: his abuse, to control, of the jealousy, the isolation. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we just have so many He is such a history

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Speaker 1: of um. I mean, he was not crazy. He moved

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Speaker 1: her all the way to Pasadena away from us, just

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Speaker 1: to get her away from us because we were the

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Speaker 1: ones like fighting for her to leave him, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and how abusive people was and we were scared for her,

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Speaker 1: and he did everything you know an abuser. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know all the hit all the signs, all the

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Speaker 1: red flags, and so you know, he it just I

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Speaker 1: I trust, I absolutely do think, UM that I know

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Speaker 1: the DA has a great case, and UM, and I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I honestly, UM don't think that there's any

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Speaker 1: chance that he's going to get that he was crazy

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Speaker 1: or mentally insane. If that happens, I'll just I'll just

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Speaker 1: lose it. But you know, I think they have so

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Speaker 1: much evidence to support that he was right. He mentioned

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Speaker 1: all the previous offenses, how long had he been beating

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Speaker 1: her and mind controlling her? But mind control and the

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Speaker 1: jealousy started very early on in their relationship. I would

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Speaker 1: say was within a few months. And um, and I

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Speaker 1: do believe that he got her pregnant. I think it

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Speaker 1: was all part of the control. I do believe he

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Speaker 1: got pregnant very early on. And then within about three

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Speaker 1: or four months they were married. Um, you know, she

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Speaker 1: had Alexis, who was now will be two in November,

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Speaker 1: and then she had another pregnancy. She had another pregnancy

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Speaker 1: in the middle of her one. Then when she was

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Speaker 1: murdered and Alexis and um, we actually found out about

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Speaker 1: the second pregnancy when she was in the ear from

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Speaker 1: the abuse. Um, she couldn't open her eyes. Um, he

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Speaker 1: nearly broke her nose. That I mean, it was it

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Speaker 1: was awful. I mean, it was like when she sent

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Speaker 1: me a picture. I was at work. It was like

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Speaker 1: one in the morning. She was in the car with

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Speaker 1: my parents. My parents had picked her up. They lived

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Speaker 1: a two blocks over for most of the time, and

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Speaker 1: she just I didn't even know about the physical abuse.

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Speaker 1: And that was February, before the August she was murdered.

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Speaker 1: So that's when we knew about the abuse. And she said, Mom,

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Speaker 1: you know, he just took it too far this time.

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Speaker 1: This has been going on. I mean, she told me

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Speaker 1: it had been going on like every weekend. I mean

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Speaker 1: she said, so, I had no idea. So it was

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Speaker 1: from that moment on, Um, you know, when she was scared.

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Speaker 1: She they we wanted her to press charges. Police did

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Speaker 1: come to the hospital and encouraged her to press charges.

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Speaker 1: She in that moment, found out she was pregnant with

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Speaker 1: her second child, and then a week later she miscarried,

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Speaker 1: and we do believe it was from the abuse, because

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Speaker 1: she told us details about what he had done to her,

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Speaker 1: and it all kind of think led back to her

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Speaker 1: being miscarrying that second child. But she was separated from

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Speaker 1: him because if the abuse in the control. When she

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Speaker 1: got pregnant with her third child that she was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with and she was murdered. I was sitting at a

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Speaker 1: restaurant and she told me she was pregnant. They were separated,

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Speaker 1: she was living with me at the time, and I

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Speaker 1: just broke down in tears because I just knew it

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Speaker 1: was his manipulative way of controlling her and making her

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Speaker 1: come back to him, and I lost it. I just

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be happy for the baby, and I

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Speaker 1: was obviously like you know later, but I was just

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Speaker 1: so scared for her and that child, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: she finally said she was like she stood up her

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Speaker 1: sit her ground and had him arrested, had his parents

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Speaker 1: come and get all his belonging out to the apartment,

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Speaker 1: was urting over for her and her children, and then

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Speaker 1: they let him out, you know, and he killed her.

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Speaker 1: And it's just it's just awful time stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: Karen start with me. Psychologists joining us from New York,

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Speaker 1: and Karen, I'm going to hook you up with Melanie

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Speaker 1: after our program because Karen, I know, I know you

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Speaker 1: can help her. Karen, you know you and I sat

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Speaker 1: on many many dark studios talking during commercial breaks and

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Speaker 1: have met many many times for lunch or dinner to

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Speaker 1: talk about cases. You know, I worked in the Battle

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Speaker 1: Women's Center for nine years at night. This story is

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Speaker 1: as old as time, and I don't know when this

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Speaker 1: story is going to end. But what signs can other

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Speaker 1: people look for to avoid domestic abuse? This girl is dead.

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Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, we are talking

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Speaker 1: about a beautiful young girl, Caitlin. Oh my goodness. She

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Speaker 1: has one little girl now too, miscarried a second and

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Speaker 1: was carrying a baby at the time. She was brutally murdered,

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Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, twenty times, including directly in her stomach.

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Speaker 1: Now I know if I was talking to a jury

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Speaker 1: right now, some of them would turn away because it's

427
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: just too much to take in stabbing her in the stomach.

428
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: And I would tell that jury look him right in

429
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: the eye and say don't turn away. Oh no, no, no,

430
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: do you cannot turn away because this is the truth

431
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: and we have a chance to do something about it

432
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: instead of looking the other way. Karen Stark, I know, Melanie,

433
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 1: and finger is going to agree with everything you say.

434
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: What do we look for? And then you see Caitlin

435
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: had moved out and then she was murdered. What do

436
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: we look for and what do we do? Karen Stark, Well,

437
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: first of all, Nancy, I just wanted to say to

438
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: Melanie that my heart goes out for you. I am

439
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: so sorry, really deep in my heart for what happened

440
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: to you. And Nancy, it happens so often, just like

441
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,199
Speaker 1: you said, when we talk about it, we try to

442
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: do something, and it's very, very hard to pin this down.

443
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: It's a vicious cycle. What you look or is a

444
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: woman who you can see that she has bruises, and

445
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: she'll say to you that she tripped, she fell, somebody

446
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 1: bumped into her. And you also get to see in

447
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: the man involved in these cases that he apologizes precisely,

448
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: he does whatever he may. He maybe this cat killer

449
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: would buy a new cat and say this will never

450
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: happen again. And the woman is so tied into the

451
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: situation that she cannot get herself. She can't extricate herself

452
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: from this person. He comes back with more and more

453
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: promises that it will never ever happen again, and she

454
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: loves him and is so used to being a part

455
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: of this that she says, Okay, this time, I have

456
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: hoped he will be different, and it's never different. And

457
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: just like her mom, really have to plead to get

458
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: that woman away from this violence. You have to plead,

459
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 1: And isn't it true to Chief of Police, our very

460
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: special guests in joining us Chief Bruger along with Brian

461
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: Mazzola and Melanie in Finger, the violence will escalate. I

462
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: know you've had your men and women trained in this.

463
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: When the woman tries to leave, when the husband finds out,

464
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: the boyfriend finds out she's going to leave, that's when

465
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: the violence will definitely escalate. And that's what happened here, Chief, absolutely,

466
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: and it ends up being a cycle that the cycle's

467
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: not broken. You know, they go back off. Sometimes there's

468
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: a honeymoon period, they try to make things right, but

469
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 1: at some point the violence typically comes back, and when

470
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: it comes back, it usually comes back more severe than

471
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: in the previous time. And you know, we try and

472
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: try to, you know, to get victims out of this situation.

473
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: But it's such a mind game. It can be very,

474
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: very difficult to get them to finally leave, and it

475
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: can be a life or death decision many times. I mean,

476
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: we have a lot of domestic violence related deaths, unfortunately,

477
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: you know, to you, Jess got Morgan. I don't know

478
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: how many autopsies said death things you've been on and conducted,

479
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands. But I don't know why

480
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: they call it domestic homicide. That makes it sound so

481
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: warm and cozy. Domestic your home, your domicile, it's anything.

482
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean even you know,

483
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: people when they think homicide and they automatically go to

484
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: things like you know that I've been involved in, like

485
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: serial homicide and all that stuff. Listen, let me tell

486
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 1: you something. Those are few and far between. Domestics are rampant.

487
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: They have been for years now, Nancy, and they are

488
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: some of the most brutal things that I have borne

489
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: witness too. I'm talking about scenes, and forgive me for

490
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm talking about scenes literally awash in blood,

491
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: where I have fallen down because there was so much

492
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: blood beneath my feet. On these scenes, slipping sliding. It's

493
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: the links that these people go to that commit and

494
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: you know it's not like that. It's not like this

495
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: guy was going one on one with somebody that is

496
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: his own size. And Karen can probably comment, this is

497
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: what you call a symmetry where you got this big, dominant,

498
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: brutish person and he's going against a pregnant woman, Nancy,

499
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: and not just a pregnant woman, but a mama to boot,

500
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: she's already got a child and he's going to do

501
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: this to her. It gives you, it gives you an

502
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: idea of how primal all of this is. And it's

503
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: absolutely horrible and nothing, and I mean nothing is being

504
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: done that is effective to interdict these situations. To Brian Mozola,

505
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: the lawyer for Melanie in Finger, that is Caitlyn's mom,

506
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: tell me and you can find Brian at Mozola Lawfirm

507
00:31:53,480 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: dot com. What do you hope to gain with Caitlin's law, Well,

508
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: we want to take a lot of the discretion away

509
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: from these judges. Magistrate better not looking at the criminals.

510
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: L I don't know where your background is, but that

511
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: means praise the Lord, because I don't like these judges

512
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: like callen doing this and it's like you can't stop them.

513
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: I would sit back in court, Mozzola, I'm sure you

514
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: have to, and I'd watch the judge and listen to

515
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: them making one erroneous ruling after the next. In fact,

516
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: like I held in contempt when I said to the judge, Judge,

517
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: just turn around. And there's that codebook. It says OCGA

518
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: on it, Official Code of Georgia Annotated and I can

519
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: tell you the section and section blah blah blah where

520
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: I can tell you your ruling is wrong. I got

521
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: held in contempt. They don't want to know that they're wrong,

522
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: and they're going to keep on doing it until we

523
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: make them stop. So how are you going to do

524
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: that with Caitlin's law. Well, maybe I'm mistake a bad

525
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: This guy's got load on his hands, and and uh,

526
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: you know that's what we're aiming to change with Caitlin's Law.

527
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: To add provisions to the Bell system Bell Schedule, I

528
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: should say that states under certain instances that the magistrate

529
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: does not have the discretion to release criminals on PR bond,

530
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: one of those exceptions being whenever the defendant has been

531
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: previously charged with a saft family violence, which obviously in

532
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: this case happened. And you know, given the set of fact,

533
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: had this provision been in the Bell schedule, then we

534
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't be talking about this today. Well, Brian Azzoa, you

535
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: are a champion in my mind, as are you, Chief Bruger.

536
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: To Melanie in Finger, the mother of Caitlin, who is

537
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: fighting to get Caitlin's law passed all over the country

538
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: where judges cannot release the domestic killers. You know when

539
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: I heard that he I'm not even gonna say his name.

540
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: The killer would control her phone, take her phone away

541
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: right there, right there. You don't take your equal co

542
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: partner's phone away right there. That simple little act tells

543
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: me he is controlling her. I got a question for you,

544
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: Miss in Finger. Do you ever feel that Caitlin has

545
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: tried to contact you or give you a message? Oh?

546
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: All the time? I mean I feel her and she

547
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: leaves me signs all the time. I mean I talked

548
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: to her every day, um and and I know she

549
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: was just proud and pushing me forward. And I see

550
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: her in her baby's eyes every day. And you know

551
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm raising her daughter, I'm Alexis. And she absolutely talks

552
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: to me all the time and just smiling, and I'm

553
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: just cheering her, you know, as someone and just and

554
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: I know she's proud and she helped me that often.

555
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: Miss Enfinger, You're stronger than I am. The thought of

556
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: not having Lucy or John David, I just would not

557
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: want to live anymore. I just would not want to live.

558
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: And you are carrying on to raise her daughter. You

559
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: are one strong lady. And I pray for you and

560
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: your granddaughter and Caitlin and that somehow you can make

561
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 1: a difference in this world. I know you already have

562
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: in my life. Thank you, Caitlin's Yes, ma'am. Thank you www.

563
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: Dot Caitlin's Law dot org. Please help us help Melanie

564
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: make a difference in this world. Nancy Grace Crime Story

565
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,