1
00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,600
Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from how Supports

2
00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:15,000
Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

3
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,440
Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin and welcome to part two of our

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:24,440
Speaker 1: to Too, I'm Sorry Tattoo episodes. I I am, much

5
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,160
Speaker 1: like Kristen, cannot help it but say to two to

6
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: to two and also that just has a nice ring

7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,760
Speaker 1: to it, so cute and I just can't help reading

8
00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,680
Speaker 1: it in in that pronunciation. Well, in part two, we

9
00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: continue unpacking the taboos of tattoos when it comes to women.

10
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 1: To boos also sounds cute when you put the emphascist

11
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,879
Speaker 1: on difference levels. Uh well, Kristen, you mentioned in our

12
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,160
Speaker 1: last episode that one of your larger tattoos was done

13
00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:00,280
Speaker 1: by a lady tattoo artists. So did you specifically seek

14
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 1: out this woman or did it just happen to be

15
00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,679
Speaker 1: a lady who did it. It was both and neither.

16
00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: I actually ended up getting hooked up with her through

17
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,800
Speaker 1: a freelance writing assignment. UM. She had recently opened up

18
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: a shop here in Atlanta, Only You Tattoo, which she

19
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 1: co opened with her husband, and I was gonna go

20
00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,280
Speaker 1: write a profile of her UM because she has been

21
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 1: tattooing for a long time and has a great reputation.

22
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 1: And I told my editor that I had been wanting

23
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,560
Speaker 1: to get a tattoo, so why don't I do the

24
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,280
Speaker 1: interview while she is tattooing. Man, that sounds like an

25
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,560
Speaker 1: amazing article. I didn't know you did this. It was

26
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,840
Speaker 1: it was great. Yeah. Um, I will say that it

27
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 1: was um only I only have two tattoos, um, and

28
00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: it was the second one, and it is a very

29
00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:03,240
Speaker 1: intricately detailed battleship in my rib cage. So it took

30
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 1: a while, and that is a tender spot. When she

31
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,240
Speaker 1: found out that that I only had one tattoo and

32
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,280
Speaker 1: that I was going to get this larger piece on

33
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,240
Speaker 1: my on my rib cage, she was like, how do

34
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,640
Speaker 1: you handle pain? You're all right with that? And my

35
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,880
Speaker 1: editor who came with me actually took me to um

36
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,400
Speaker 1: the restaurant bar next door and having to a shot

37
00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 1: at Jamie Cinema with him before before I got my tattoo.

38
00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 1: So I but it made it even more significant that

39
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,840
Speaker 1: she did it. I mean, there are all sorts of

40
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, amazing tattoo is regardless of gender, but I

41
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 1: just especially for what the tattoo means to me. I

42
00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 1: I like the way it all came together with a

43
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,400
Speaker 1: woman doing it and also a woman entrepreneur, and it

44
00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,760
Speaker 1: was just a great experience. Yeah, you and I are

45
00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: both part of this lady centric Facebook group that will

46
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 1: remain unnamed. Uh, But something I do love seeing on

47
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 1: there is when women come on and say, and I'm

48
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 1: seeing this more often women come on and say, I

49
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 1: want a tattoo or I want a new tattoo where

50
00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 1: the cool, rad lady tattoo artists in town. Because I

51
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,320
Speaker 1: mean that's totally ladies supporting ladies, and it's ladies supporting

52
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 1: women artists, women business owners, because a tattoo artist is

53
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: all of these things and like maybe she just works

54
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 1: at the businesses, isn't the actual owner. But I just

55
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 1: love seeing women support each other like that for something

56
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,480
Speaker 1: that I feel like a lot of people would easily

57
00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,200
Speaker 1: dismiss or just say why do you even want to

58
00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: get a tattoo? But for the people who love and

59
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,320
Speaker 1: want tattoos and body modification in general, the person that

60
00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 1: you go to to do that and trust with your

61
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 1: body basically, I mean that is significant. Yeah, I mean

62
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: it can be a really intimate experience. And while you know,

63
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,560
Speaker 1: my my rib cage isn't exactly like on orogenous zone,

64
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's still like laying there for a couple

65
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 1: of hours with my shirt up. Um. It was not that.

66
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 1: I don't think that I would have necessarily been distinctly

67
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,080
Speaker 1: uncomfortable if a guy had been tattooing me, because above

68
00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,040
Speaker 1: all their professional Um, it's like seeing a male kind

69
00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:36,160
Speaker 1: of collegist for instance. Um. But especially since I am

70
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,719
Speaker 1: still kind of a newbie, it was I don't know,

71
00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,280
Speaker 1: it was just nice having having a woman do it,

72
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,840
Speaker 1: get all up in my my rib business. And there's

73
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,159
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with personal preference. Yeah, no, not at all. Um.

74
00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 1: And we are dedicating, like you said, this episode to

75
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,600
Speaker 1: looking at women in the industry, and we're gonna be

76
00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,160
Speaker 1: referencing Beverly and Thompson's book Covered in Ink Tattoos meant

77
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,880
Speaker 1: in the Politics of the Body a lot, because she

78
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,400
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time looking at the landscape of

79
00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,200
Speaker 1: gender in the tattoo industry, talking to women who have

80
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 1: been in the business for a long time, women who

81
00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 1: are just getting in the business. Um. And there are

82
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,360
Speaker 1: more women tattooing than ever before by a large margin.

83
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: Even though it is still very much a male dominated industry,

84
00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,919
Speaker 1: because I mean, if you look at pre nineteen seventies,

85
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,040
Speaker 1: finding just another female tattoos would have been really hard

86
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:40,200
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, before the late twentieth century, you kind

87
00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 1: of have to go all the way back to the

88
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,560
Speaker 1: turn of the twentieth century to find a significant or

89
00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,039
Speaker 1: well known lady tattoo artist. And that's Maud Wagner. Uh,

90
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 1: the badass who you know, made it a family affair.

91
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,279
Speaker 1: Her husband was also a tattoo artist. Uh, they would

92
00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:03,200
Speaker 1: tattoo each other. There. Otter became a tattoo artist who was,

93
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 1: as we discussed in our last episode, famously not tattooed

94
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 1: because her father died and so she wouldn't let anyone

95
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: else tattoo her. And of course they have my my

96
00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 1: favorite first date story of all, which is that Gus

97
00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,320
Speaker 1: Wagner traded Maud a lesson in tattooing for a date. Yeah.

98
00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:25,720
Speaker 1: It seems like a good business decision. Yeah, I mean,

99
00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:27,960
Speaker 1: Maud was already just, you know, an entrepreneur. She was

100
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,039
Speaker 1: an arealist of the circus and she was like, listen

101
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,040
Speaker 1: that again, I gotta get some skills. Skills with a

102
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 1: Z and then when you jump forward to the nineteen forties,

103
00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,640
Speaker 1: you get chorus girl turned tattoo artist Mildred Hale. She

104
00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,040
Speaker 1: was cited as the only lady tattooist in New York

105
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,599
Speaker 1: at the time. Yeah, I mean, and this was in

106
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,080
Speaker 1: that came from nineteen forty three, but she had already

107
00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,240
Speaker 1: opened her own tattoo shop, which was a rarity at

108
00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 1: the time. She died though, I think in the nineteen

109
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 1: forties at um a very young age, but yeah, I

110
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,359
Speaker 1: mean she was. She was a rare tattoo artist who

111
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,160
Speaker 1: didn't pick it up from a husband or boyfriend because

112
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 1: it was, you know, pretty much like a masculine subculture

113
00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 1: at that time. Yeah, totally. But by the time we

114
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: do hit the nineteen seventies, you know, we're in the

115
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,240
Speaker 1: second wave feminism. We've had the swing in sixties. Uh,

116
00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 1: tattoos are coming up from being just like a part

117
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,840
Speaker 1: of a dangerous biker subculture. Uh and illegal also in

118
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: a lot of places due to hepatitis see breakouts. Um.

119
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 1: In the nineteen seventies, you do see women becoming increasingly

120
00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 1: interested in manning that tattoo gun. But uh, dudes weren't

121
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 1: always so keen on letting them into the clubhouse. Yeah,

122
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: so they definitely had to elbow their way in a

123
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,560
Speaker 1: bit too into this our culture. But there were pioneers,

124
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,960
Speaker 1: and we're gonna highlight two of them, starting with the

125
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 1: so called godmother of tattooing, Kate helen Brand a k A.

126
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,800
Speaker 1: Shanghai Kate, who picked it up from her boyfriend around

127
00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: ninety one and then she was just like, off to

128
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,120
Speaker 1: the races, she will learn how to tattoo. She ended

129
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 1: up studying with Ed Hardy, who, yes, Ed Hardy is

130
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,520
Speaker 1: the Ed Hardy of all of those very distressed genes

131
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 1: and um, very busy, let's put it that way, very

132
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,719
Speaker 1: busy t shirt particular. It's a particular bro culture. Very yes,

133
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,360
Speaker 1: it's a very particular aesthetic. Um. But Ed Hardy is

134
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,719
Speaker 1: originally a tattoo legend who actually uh kind of pioneered

135
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:50,200
Speaker 1: in the United States large back pieces, which explains the

136
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:55,640
Speaker 1: style aesthetic of Ed Hardy brand clove. Um. But Kate

137
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:59,360
Speaker 1: helen Brand is stuttying with him and other who's who

138
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 1: in the tat t world in the seventies and in

139
00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,319
Speaker 1: nineteen nine she becomes the first American woman to high

140
00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,160
Speaker 1: tail it to Europe. To set up shot by herself.

141
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,120
Speaker 1: She's like traveling around tattooing on her own, making a

142
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,360
Speaker 1: name for herself, collecting different techniques. She goes to Japan

143
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,320
Speaker 1: and she's just figuring out all this, all this stuff. Well,

144
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,640
Speaker 1: it's just funny that there are literally so few women

145
00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,440
Speaker 1: in the industry that it's even noteworthy that she's the

146
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: first woman to go to Europe to tattoo solo. Like

147
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 1: it does it that doesn't seem like, you know, first

148
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 1: woman in space is cool, and this not that this

149
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: isn't cool, but it's just indicative of how few women

150
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: are around that this is even noted. And Helen Brand,

151
00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,240
Speaker 1: in an interview, said that she was ridiculed, called crazy,

152
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 1: even physically attacked when she entered this industry. She said,

153
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,960
Speaker 1: I was an economic threat because I was a cute girl,

154
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,560
Speaker 1: and when the military guys came in on leave, they

155
00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: always picked me over the others with more experience ants.

156
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,000
Speaker 1: So not exactly welcomed with open arms. People were really

157
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,400
Speaker 1: critical of like, oh, well, you're just skating by on

158
00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,079
Speaker 1: your womanhood, on your good looks. She was a sally

159
00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,679
Speaker 1: ride of tattoos. There we go. But you know, the

160
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,080
Speaker 1: interviewer did ask her, like, so, uh, you're like sevent dy,

161
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,160
Speaker 1: do you have any plans to retire? She's like, retire

162
00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,280
Speaker 1: from what? Having an awesome life? Think? Yeah, she was

163
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,000
Speaker 1: like traveling around and making money. Why would Why would I?

164
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,800
Speaker 1: Why would I do that? Because she's still tattooing. Um.

165
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,080
Speaker 1: Someone else who is still tattooing? Whose shop? I'm pretty

166
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,200
Speaker 1: sure I've walked past a number of times because I

167
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 1: frequent New Orleans. Um is Jackie Gresham, who in nineteen

168
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 1: seventies six became the first black female tattooists in the

169
00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 1: United States. And I mean she became the first black

170
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,280
Speaker 1: prominent tattooists male or female in the US. And she

171
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,120
Speaker 1: says that when she got started, she knew of only

172
00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:05,000
Speaker 1: five other female professional tattooists. And in a mind bending

173
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 1: bit of historical trivia, Gresham told her interviewer at the

174
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,559
Speaker 1: Gambit that her business partner back in the day wanted

175
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,719
Speaker 1: to institute a shop rule that women customers could not

176
00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 1: get a tattoo because it was socially unacceptable. What what?

177
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 1: What the what? Yeah? So she was actually working at

178
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: an engineering firm, of all places, when she met this guy,

179
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,520
Speaker 1: Ali Singh, who would become her business partner. Um, he

180
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 1: had actually traveled around and knew how to tattoo and

181
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:42,040
Speaker 1: taught her how to to tattoo. It's hard to say, um.

182
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 1: And they took a trip to New Orleans hoping to

183
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,719
Speaker 1: land a job in either engineering her architecture, and New

184
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,439
Speaker 1: Orleans was like, uh, two bad, so sad, we don't

185
00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,360
Speaker 1: have any jobs for you. So they realized that they

186
00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 1: had a skill that not many other people new, so

187
00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:06,719
Speaker 1: they opened up shop and today Art Accent, that's Art

188
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,200
Speaker 1: with two a's is the oldest tattoo parlor in New Orleans.

189
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,760
Speaker 1: But that's also kind of on a technicality because there

190
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 1: were like two other tattoo shops open when they opened,

191
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 1: but they have since closed down, so it's the oldest

192
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 1: like continually running. Um, but she's still tattooing people. So

193
00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: you're telling me that that she's kind of a double

194
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,800
Speaker 1: groundbreaker in terms of women's professional history because she's got

195
00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,400
Speaker 1: this position as the earliest prominent black tattoo artists in

196
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,720
Speaker 1: the country, but she was also an engineer. Oh yeah,

197
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,600
Speaker 1: so I think she was more she studied architecture. Okay, well, again,

198
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 1: like going back to our women in Stem series and

199
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,960
Speaker 1: our architecture episode, like not exactly a playground for ladies,

200
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 1: not exactly welcoming. Yeah, I mean I feel like Jackie

201
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 1: just kind of bulldozes her way into like whatever makes

202
00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,480
Speaker 1: sense in her life, and that led to tattooing. And

203
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,720
Speaker 1: she's talked about how her architecture training and design training

204
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 1: has been helpful with tattooing because that she does really

205
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 1: awesome work well because of how you know, the body

206
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,120
Speaker 1: curves and how like just kind of intuitively knowing how

207
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: to work with what is not a flat surface. And

208
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 1: she was also clearly self possessed because she's shut down

209
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 1: Ali's saying who I think was also her boyfriend at

210
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,040
Speaker 1: one point, um, yeah, shutting him down, being like what, Okay,

211
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna give tattoos as a woman, but I won't

212
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,360
Speaker 1: be able to tattoo other women. No, no, no, no no, yeah,

213
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,559
Speaker 1: I get out of here, dude with your bad ideas. Uh.

214
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,200
Speaker 1: And today, you know, women make up just ten of

215
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 1: American tattoo artists, but that still encompasses a lot of

216
00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 1: growth what you might call the Cat Bondie effect. And

217
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 1: if you're not if you're somehow not familiar with who

218
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: Cat Bondie is, she was on my inc She's very famous.

219
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,320
Speaker 1: She's the one that my mother always says like, oh wow,

220
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: would a beautiful girl like that tattoo her face? So

221
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 1: you know, she's got stars on her face, she's got

222
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,200
Speaker 1: tattoos on her neck. She's like fully covered basically. And

223
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,160
Speaker 1: she now has a line of makeup that I've heard

224
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: from people it's you, is you right? It's me. It's amazing.

225
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,880
Speaker 1: I have yet to try anything beyond her lip glasses.

226
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,360
Speaker 1: But if the rest of her makeup line is as

227
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 1: amazing as her lip glasses, they are long wearing. Uh,

228
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,920
Speaker 1: they are incredible. I I love them, then I then

229
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: I should try the rest of the line. For sure.

230
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,800
Speaker 1: They're at Sephora, Go get them. The Cat von Dei

231
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: effect has affected YouTube, Carolina. You don't even have any

232
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 1: to swapped up in it. Yeah, But the cat Vondi

233
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,560
Speaker 1: effect and the relative ground swell of women into the

234
00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: industry is something that Jackie Gresham talked about to the

235
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,600
Speaker 1: New Orleans All Weekly the Gamba, saying that women who've

236
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: been tattooing over twenty years, there ain't a hundred in

237
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,560
Speaker 1: this country, but they are tattooing now, and she thinks

238
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 1: It's good because here we get a little gender essentialists. Um.

239
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,840
Speaker 1: She says that women are much more sensitive and caring

240
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,280
Speaker 1: than men, and that they care more about what they do. Well, okay,

241
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: maybe that's her experience. Yeah, sure, maybe that's how she feels. Um,

242
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 1: but I mean I can only imagine, um, what her

243
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: perspective must be, considering that when she started literally like

244
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 1: five other people doing what she did in the country. Um.

245
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,120
Speaker 1: But if we get to cat Bondie briefly, I did

246
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,080
Speaker 1: not know much about her, specifically that she was born

247
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 1: in Mexico, Yeah, raised in l A. She actually got

248
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 1: her first tattoo at fourteen. She was against the law

249
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,680
Speaker 1: in you know some places. Uh. But she ended up

250
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 1: dropping out of school and started working at a tattoo

251
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,360
Speaker 1: shop at six Team, which proved spoiler, I already spoiled

252
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,080
Speaker 1: it. It It proved to be a good investment because then

253
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,200
Speaker 1: she got super hyper famous on Miami inc. And Um,

254
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 1: a lot of people, though, you know, they have dismissed

255
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: her as like the hot girl. Like again, you know,

256
00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 1: here are women being dismissed because like, oh, you're just

257
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: skating by on your looks. You're attracting men with your

258
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:26,120
Speaker 1: feminine Wiles and your Face Stars to your tattoo chair. Um.

259
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 1: But I mean so I don't know. I really know

260
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 1: nothing about her skill as a tattoo artist. I know

261
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 1: way more about how people dismiss her on the basis

262
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,880
Speaker 1: of her appearance. I'm gonna say it. I mean, I

263
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,200
Speaker 1: love I love her makeup. Just worth restating. Uh, this

264
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,000
Speaker 1: episode is not brought to you by Kat Bondie. But

265
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,880
Speaker 1: I think do you think that the part of her

266
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,000
Speaker 1: brush off is because she she got her rise or

267
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 1: notoriety via TLC on a reality show. Yeah, I'm sure

268
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 1: that that had a lot to do with it. I mean,

269
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 1: they scouted her when she was In two thousand five,

270
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 1: she gets her spin off show l A Inc. And

271
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 1: the producers made her higher two other women to be

272
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: her assistance because they wanted the optics of all female

273
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 1: run tattoo shop. Um, and she ended up letting them

274
00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 1: go after she was contractually allowed to because she wouldn't

275
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 1: have been working with them otherwise, not because they were

276
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,639
Speaker 1: other women, but just because, like they weren't terribly good

277
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 1: at what they did, so the show might might not

278
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,560
Speaker 1: have helped her so much in the eyes of the

279
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,720
Speaker 1: tattoo industry. Even though obviously it raised her celebrity profile

280
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: well in the lip gloss industry, she is head and

281
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,600
Speaker 1: shoulders above. I don't know many others, but Margot Mifflin,

282
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,960
Speaker 1: who wrote the book Bodies of a Subversion, which all

283
00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 1: those V sounds that's very hard for me to say. Um.

284
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,480
Speaker 1: She wrote that Cat Bondie's success is more quote an

285
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,840
Speaker 1: indicator of women's rowing profile in the industry than her

286
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 1: particular talents. So, I mean, do you think that it

287
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:12,080
Speaker 1: is important to have those optics of women out there tattooing? Oh?

288
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 1: I mean, like, if you are a TLC reality show,

289
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: you know they want the optics for the novelty factor,

290
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: certainly not the optics of you know what, we need

291
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,560
Speaker 1: to inspire more women to get into this male dominated

292
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: industry because we're TLC. So what I'm hearing you say

293
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:33,000
Speaker 1: between the lines is that this is the new version

294
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: of the side show. Because we talked so much in

295
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 1: our first episode about women with tattoos in public that

296
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:47,480
Speaker 1: becoming a thing in circus side shows because you were

297
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,720
Speaker 1: such a freak, You were so transgressive, You were going

298
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 1: against every gender norm and social expectation that you had

299
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 1: as a woman, and you know, defiling your your pure

300
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 1: as the driven snow god given body. And so that's

301
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: really the only avenue for heavily tattooed women to make money. Uh.

302
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,520
Speaker 1: But now you've got reality shows like TLC that, yeah,

303
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,320
Speaker 1: exactly like you said, they're not trying to help women

304
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,080
Speaker 1: get inspired or help anyone get inspired. Really, they're just

305
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: portraying people that we can all goc at, and that

306
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 1: goes across a lot of their programming. Caroline, my mind

307
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 1: is blown. I completely agree with your theory. Um, And

308
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm now trying to imagine a mashup of you know,

309
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: Cat Vondi with Says to the Dress because I think

310
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,520
Speaker 1: Monty would just lose his mind because how are you

311
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,439
Speaker 1: going to cover all those tw twos? Oh god? And

312
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 1: again I'm just picturing because my mother is so judge

313
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 1: about Cat Bondie and obsessively watches Say Yes to the

314
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,520
Speaker 1: Dress and is so judge about those people. So I

315
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 1: just I feel like Sally's head would explode with judgment.

316
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the ratings bonanza waiting to happen. My god,

317
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 1: my mother would hate watch the crap out of it.

318
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: Um that there are in addition to issues of just

319
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 1: getting women into the industry and how many women are represented,

320
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,679
Speaker 1: whether they're on TLC or not. There's also issues of

321
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: class and race that we have to grapple with, and

322
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: we are going to talk about that when we come

323
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. So, while there has

324
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: been a significant growth of the number of women in

325
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: the tattoo industry, it is growth particularly among white women,

326
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: like black women in particular, are a rarity in the

327
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: tattoo ist chair. Um Margot Mifflin, who wrote Bodies of Subversion,

328
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: actually calls them conspicuously absent from that growing diversity of

329
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: tattoo is which partially has to do with economics, since

330
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,119
Speaker 1: some women might be interested, but they might not be

331
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: able to afford taking an unpaid apprenticeship. Yeah, I mean

332
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,840
Speaker 1: that can apply to anybody who's having financial is concerns

333
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: where they don't want to take an unpaid internship. Well,

334
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,640
Speaker 1: and an apprenticeship, we should note is not required to

335
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,439
Speaker 1: become a tattoo artist, but it's a common way for

336
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: people to get into the industry. Find your mentor and

337
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, find it a city job after that. Yeah,

338
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: And and there are definitely like you know, we haven't

339
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,120
Speaker 1: talked at all about like d I y tattooists called scratchers.

340
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: But there are plenty of people to who you know,

341
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: they didn't necessarily take any classes. Yeah, Caroline, I'm going

342
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 1: to confess to you that my uh my first tattoo

343
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: is a scratcher tattoo. Wait what which? What my anchor

344
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 1: on my left wrist? Oh? I thought you meant like

345
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: you had I don't know, some like smiley face somewhere

346
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: that somebody did with a ballpoint pen when you were

347
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 1: in seventh grade. I mean it looks about as high

348
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: quality as a seventh grader at the ball point. So

349
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: who did it? Just some some amateur, yes, very much

350
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 1: an amateur. Um. Some friends of mine at the time

351
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: got a tattoo gun and some ink off the internet.

352
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 1: Oh god, and they started hosting weekly tattoo nights. Well,

353
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 1: let me see it. I mean it looks good, it

354
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: doesn't you know? It looks good. It's a little crooked. Well,

355
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 1: I I don't live with your wrist. Well I have, Well,

356
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: I have a deep fondness for my crooked scratcher tattoo

357
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: because it was I didn't name it was definitely you

358
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 1: know a snapshot of that time in my twenties, and

359
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I'll get a scratcher tattoo. Sure, fine,

360
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: why not? The needles were clean, people, The needles were clean. Good.

361
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: That's very important to note. Um. Well, so moving on

362
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 1: from your crooked scratcher wrist tattoo. I'm such an outlaw.

363
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: I know you are, you really are. You're so dangerous.

364
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: But that is falling back on stereotypes about tattoos tattoo culture.

365
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: And I apologize and me too, I I apologize. I

366
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: apologize to you for your apology. Uh. And that's a

367
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: very gender based thing for us to do. We shouldn't

368
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: even be saying sorry. Now what do we do? I

369
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 1: don't know. We just start saying justin actually to each

370
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: other a lot and then turn bright red and fall apart. Um.

371
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 1: But if we go back, insite Jackie Gresham, who was

372
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: this country's first African American lady tattooist, which I hope

373
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 1: she has that stone on a jacket somewhere. America's first

374
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 1: African American lady tattoo is No, it's spelled B A

375
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: D A S S. That's how you spell it. It's

376
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: an acronym for something. Um. But yeah, she said that

377
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: she didn't even meet other black tattoo artists until the nineties. Yeah,

378
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: she got started in nineteen seventies six, and it would

379
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: take her almost twenty years to meet just another black tattoo.

380
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 1: It's not even a black woman. Kind of speaking about that,

381
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: Gresham told the Gambit that black people in Louisiana have

382
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: always gotten tattoos, but their hand stuck. I think the

383
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: reason black people didn't get tattoos was because the tattoo

384
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: trade was predominantly a biker group and they weren't women friendly,

385
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: or black people friendly or any of that. It's a

386
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 1: gatekeeper issue. It's what we see across industries abilities all

387
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: of this stuff, especially you know, we talked about it

388
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 1: a lot in STEM for instance. But you know, look

389
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: at who is the gatekeeper of who enters the field

390
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: becomes professionalized, or whether the industry itself becomes professionalized. And

391
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: so if the gatekeepers of tattooing are white biker dudes

392
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: who might be a little surly and racist and racist.

393
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: Not not that all bikers are racist, you know, Tagontal bikers, um,

394
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: but you can imagine that that's not always the most

395
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: welcoming environment for people who were different than that, yeah,

396
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: I mean, and myth And writes about this as well

397
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: and Bodies of Subversion, saying that there has been just

398
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: straight up an historical lack of a Black American tattoo

399
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: tradition and a scarcity of tattoo is to emulate. So

400
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: if you look at rap and hip hop culture today,

401
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 1: there are tattoos galore, my favorite being Gucci manes ice

402
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: cream cone on his cheek um. But those tattoos like

403
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: Gresham talks about, are mostly hand stuck or scratchers or

404
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: flash tats where they aren't so much focused on, you know, artistry,

405
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: and you're not going to go to a professional tattoo

406
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: shop to get it done. You're going to go to

407
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: you know, just like I didn't did my friend who

408
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: just has a tattoo gun. And it's not like there's

409
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: a lot of media out there dedicated to black people

410
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: in this country who want or appreciate tattoos either. I mean,

411
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, that's when we get the

412
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: first tattoo magazine dedicated to people of color, called Urban Ink.

413
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: But it wasn't really well made. It had a lot

414
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: of problematic and highly sexualized images of women, and just

415
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: not the work feature wasn't even that great. Yeah, I mean,

416
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: basically it was the result of a publishing company that

417
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: was already putting out a couple of tattoo magazines, and

418
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: they were like, Oh, let's capitalize on on this. We

419
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: can just we can just throw this thing together, right,

420
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: And there was one um black tattoo artist who just

421
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: so quickly realized what trash urban ink was because um,

422
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: I think that she asked whether or not she like

423
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: submitted a query about whether her work could be featured

424
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: in the magazine, and the editor was immediately like, yeah,

425
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: without even asking to see her work. But I'm really

426
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 1: surprised to learn, Caroline, that urban ink still exists. It

427
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: might be folded in with Ink magazine. I'm not entirely sure.

428
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: All I know is that I just googled it and

429
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: yeah it's there, and oh wonderful. It's an interview with

430
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: Chris Brown. Oh so there we go. Well that's eliminating.

431
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: He does have a lot of tattoos awkward silence. So

432
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 1: for perhaps a richer and more meaningful investigation of people

433
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: of color within the not just the industry, but the subculture,

434
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: the tattoo subculture, I would recommend checking out the twelve

435
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: documentary Color Outside the Lines, which focuses largely on renowned

436
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: tattoo artists and City of Ink owner Maya Bailey. UM.

437
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 1: But they also talked to, for instance, Jackie Gresham, whom

438
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,479
Speaker 1: we've been talking about for the past two episodes, and

439
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: they dig in as well on issues of you know,

440
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: just even just the mechanics of tattooing black skin and

441
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: the kinds of ink shades that work the best and

442
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: proper techniques, um, and really fleshing out what has been

443
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of people kind of having to navigate

444
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: their way through a very white dominated culture. And I

445
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: would be curious to know from African American listeners whether

446
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: there has been a feeling of marginalization when you have

447
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: kind of been in those spaces, if you have been

448
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: in a tattoo shop or have even just been talking

449
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: about tattoos, have just gotten a tattoo, um, whether there

450
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,880
Speaker 1: is a sense of mother ring at all, um, or

451
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: if it's just getting a tattoo. Yeah, Because I mean,

452
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: when it comes to atmospheres of tattoo shops and you're

453
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: looking at gender, if you're backing away from looking at

454
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: race or skin color, you've got people like fame tattoo

455
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: artist Vivian las Anga and Seattle, who says that the

456
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: atmosphere is a way better for women today than it

457
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: was when they were working with men, even in the Indies,

458
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: when there was definitely a more competitive and cutthroat vibe

459
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: to the industry. Yeah. I mean, there's just a general

460
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: stereotype that women run shops are more welcoming um, whereas

461
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: men's shops UM are. I don't want to say hostile,

462
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's the same. It's the same

463
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: kind of sensation that I get when I walk into

464
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: a mechanic garage, where it's like, oh am, I am

465
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: I welcome here? I don't have a sleeve, so am

466
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: I going to be taken seriously? I don't know? Um.

467
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: And in talking to a number of women tattooists for

468
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: Covered in Ink, Beverly Thompson writes about how the sense

469
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: of investment in their jobs and loyalty to their shops

470
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: um is very personal for female tattoo artists and and

471
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: something that she says has become almost feminine is that

472
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: that's considered like a feminine trait of a lady tattooist,

473
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: that you are more you have more of a collaborative sense. Interesting,

474
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: So they found more loyalty among female tattoo artists than

475
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: male tattoo artists. Yeah, I mean, but that was just

476
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: like anecdotally among the women she was talking to in

477
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: their observations. Um. And then there's there's kind of the

478
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: payoff and the upside of gender stereotypes, which is that

479
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: some women are simply more comfortable getting inked by other women,

480
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: like we talked about before, I mean, and especially if

481
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: it is and more intimate, uh body part. There was

482
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: one Chicana tattoo artist in l A that Thompson talked

483
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: to who said, I know, women feel safer with me

484
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: since I will understand their needs and will be respectful

485
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: of their desires. Yeah. And so yeah, you do have

486
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: that those issues weighing against each other of the gender

487
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: baas to benefit the personal preference to be tattooed by

488
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: a lady versus not wanting to be stuck in a

489
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: box as a female tattoo is to only tattoos women. Yeah, Well,

490
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: because a lot of women will experience customers walking into

491
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: a shop and saying, you know, oh, can I can

492
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: I speak to a tattoo artist like assuming that they're

493
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: just shop girls and not actually doing the work, not

494
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: to mention when it comes to the actual work. That

495
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: stereotype that spans street art and the art world at

496
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: large that women can only create feminine looking tattoos. And

497
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: of course there's something wrong with feminine looking tattoos, but

498
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: there are simply, you know, women who can Women create

499
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: a whole spectrum of aesthetics, just like fellows. Do you

500
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: know a male tattoo artist can probably tattoo me a

501
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: beautifully graceful bird. I could go to a lady and

502
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: she could make that bird like a zombie skeleton bird,

503
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 1: still a bird, though still a bird, zombie skeleton bird. Um, well,

504
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: wasn't it. There's also this weird stereotype that somehow women

505
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: are like a bargain when it comes to giving tattoos.

506
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: It wasn't a Jackie Gresham who said, like, I've got

507
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: these drunk people who come in from the bar next

508
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: door and they see me and they think that they're

509
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: going to get a deal. Well, the bartender didn't give

510
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,959
Speaker 1: you a deal on your cocktails, so why would I

511
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: give you a deal on your tattoo. Yes, I've heard

512
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: that anecdotally from women tattoo artists. I mean, I guess

513
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: it's like the gender wage gap in action, or like

514
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: you're physically smaller than your male counterpart, which means somehow

515
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: that I should be you lest Yeah, maybe assuming that

516
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: they can't be veterans, you know, they must not be

517
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: at the top of their field, so you know, cut

518
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 1: me a deal because you've got to be an intern.

519
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: So many ugly assumptions. Um, But by and large, I

520
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: say I put out a call also on the stuff

521
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: I've Never Told You Facebook page a little while back,

522
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: um for experiences from women in the industry, and overall

523
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: it was positive in the actual stores, like when you're

524
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: among your people, it's totally chill. But it's more the

525
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: thing when you go out and not only do you

526
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: probably have visible tattoos, and how people just forget how

527
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: to behave around women with visible tattoos, and then to

528
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: find out, oh wait, your tattoo artists too. Whoa, you

529
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: must want to have sex all the time, you know,

530
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: like something, you're so tough. Yeah, It's it's funny to

531
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: me to see how our attitudes about women's appearances have

532
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: trickled down and evolved over the years. Because I feel

533
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: like tattoos and makeup are very similar in that in

534
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: the early days, you know, if you look back to

535
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: the Victorians or whatever, you know, the women who were

536
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: wearing makeup were either women of the stage, or they

537
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: were prostitutes, or they were assumed to be prostitutes. And

538
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: so today that equates to like all those guys on

539
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: social media who are like, you're prettier without makeup. God,

540
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: shut up. But it's the same I think evolution when

541
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: it comes to tattoos, because they were so associated with criminality, gangs, prison, tattoos, prostitutes,

542
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: the subversive, the underground, the illegal, that now when you

543
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: see women with tattoos, it's like people they don't know

544
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: why they feel this way, but they still associate like

545
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: a criminal, underground, dangerous sexual meaning with women's tattoos. I mean.

546
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: Thompson points out that in our society it's so left

547
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: up because it's literally more socially acceptable for women to

548
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: get plastic surgery and to diet and too star of

549
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: themselves than it is to have a tattoo. So like,

550
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: what does that say about us? Like it's okay to

551
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: um focus on your body when it's an issue of

552
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: like vanity and looking pretty, but not okay when the

553
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: thing you want to do to your body is putting

554
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: a permanent mark on it. Yeah, I feel like it's

555
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: it's it either renders you a sex object or a

556
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: d sex object, because I feel like women with a

557
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: lot of visible tattoos or dropped in the bucket of either,

558
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: like you know, the your mom's cat Vondie responsive like,

559
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: oh whow would she do that to her face? Too? Well,

560
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: you know she's just given up. She doesn't even wanna,

561
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, look at her. She must hate herself, she

562
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: must hate her body. She's trying to cover it up

563
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: with all of those tattoos. Um. And the thing is

564
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: a lot of tattoo media doesn't help matters. It's the

565
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: same thing that we see in marijuana subcultures, skateboarding subcultures,

566
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: where unfortunately a lot of the you know, magazines and

567
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: media around that just recycles these images of hyper sexy

568
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 1: tattooed centerfold. Well. Yeah, I mean I said earlier that, um,

569
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: people of color in this country don't have great tattoo

570
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,959
Speaker 1: media dedicated to them or geared towards them. But that's

571
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: not I'm not I don't mean to necessarily single anyone

572
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: out who's a person of color. And also in tattoo culture,

573
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: because it seems like tattooed media across the board is

574
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: quite questionable. Yeah, I mean there it seems like there

575
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: are exceptions here and there. I forget the name of

576
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: the magazine, but there was one mentioned, I think in

577
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: Bodies of Subversion that was started by women to promote

578
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: more not even necessarily positive perceptions, but just like non sexualized,

579
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: non necessarily sexualized images of uh women in tattooing. And

580
00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: I do feel like there is organically, um, just a

581
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: broadening of our idea of what a woman with a

582
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: tattoo looks like. Because of social media. Yeah, I mean, hello, Pinterest,

583
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: all of those tattoo spo what what would they be called? There?

584
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: The tattoo inspo words on Pinterest that show a range

585
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 1: of bodies. Because also, if you don't want to look

586
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: at the hyper sexualized tattoo imagery that's put out there

587
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: in a lot of media, um, you might take a

588
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: picture of yourself as an everyday human being, uh to

589
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: show what your tattoo looks like. And then someone on

590
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: Pinterest is like, oh my god, that's so cool and inspirational.

591
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to pin that. So you get this distribution

592
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: of a variety of bodies, body shapes, body colors, body sizes,

593
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 1: all sorts of things simply because people want to trade

594
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: ideas and inspiration for their ink. And then you also

595
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: get the distribution of all sorts of different ideas about

596
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: uh tattoo trends. You know, I put out that call

597
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 1: at the end of our last up, so like, I

598
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: want to hear from tattoo artists about the trends that

599
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: they see, Like what goes in and out? Do you

600
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: see a lot of people, you know, a couple of

601
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: years ago it was the swallows on the chest or

602
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: the stars on the chest, you know. So I'm like

603
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: super fascinated by a tattoo trends even though I am

604
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: a person without tattoos. Well, Caroline, I think that's the

605
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: perfect segue to ask listeners out there all of their

606
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: thoughts on these tattoos. If you just want to talk

607
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: to us about your personal tattoos. Of course, if you

608
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 1: are a tattoo artist, whatever your gender, we would love

609
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: to hear from you, um and get your insider know

610
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: how on all the stuff that we've been talking about. Um,

611
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: and any suggestions for a tattoo that I should get,

612
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: please let me know. I'm itching to get one, and

613
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: I really don't want to just do it on impulse

614
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: and end up just getting the stuff I've Never told

615
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: you logo and kind of regretting it. Just get us

616
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 1: back to back on your back. Yes, I wish I

617
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: could get it like a three D tattoo somehow to

618
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: where like I could get you on my back, but

619
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: to where like we would be back to back, you

620
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like at the right angle anyway, Um,

621
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: I doubt that would creep you out at all. That's fine.

622
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: I would never see it because it's a back piece.

623
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: It's going to be real to screet. Yeah, So send

624
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: us all of your tattoo thoughts mom Stuff at how

625
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is our email address. You can

626
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on

627
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: Facebook and Hey, if you've got a rad tattoo that

628
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: you want to share with us, you can also go

629
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: on Instagram and just tag us where stuff Mom Never

630
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: told you and we can share it, oh with everybody,

631
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: because tattoos are really fun to look at. So at that,

632
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: let's get to some letters. All right, I have a

633
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: letter here from Inga in Norway. She still love your

634
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: podcast and as a librarian, I'm very still about your

635
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 1: librarian episodes. We did not cover Dewey's harassment in my education,

636
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: but it might just be that I'm from Norway and

637
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: Dewey wasn't extensively covered, just the Dewey decimal system. We did, however,

638
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: discussed Norwegian library pioneers usually dudes. I'm excited for more.

639
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 1: I'm really writing about the episode with Anne Marie Slaughter.

640
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: You mentioned Norwegian parental leave, and I thought you might

641
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: find it interesting to hear a real life example of

642
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: parental ly being a political divider. Parental leave in Norway

643
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: is split into three ten weeks for mom, ten for

644
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: dad or a co mother in twenty six or thirty

645
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: six weeks that you split however you like. Recently, though

646
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: mandatory paternity leave was fourteen weeks, our previous government, which

647
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: was a labor socialist government, expanded it to fourteen. In

648
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: ten we got a conservative right wing government and inteen

649
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 1: they reduced it again to ten weeks, expanding the shared weeks.

650
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 1: The idea being men can have fourteen weeks now too,

651
00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: but they should have the choice. Sadly, Norway is not

652
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 1: a feminist utopia, and because of hashtag patriarchy, women are

653
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: likely to take most of the parental leave. I remember

654
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: when the government got into power and announced this, with

655
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,919
Speaker 1: the journalists saying, well, won't this cause men to take

656
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: less paternity leave, and the Prime Minister said out loud, well,

657
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: women tend to earn less money, so it would be

658
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: a bigger burden if they worked more. I guess I

659
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: was outraged that none of the journalists raised the point

660
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: there might be a different solution to that problem, like

661
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: closing the pay gap. The most frustrating thing about this

662
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: both our Prime Minister and our Minister for Finance, one

663
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 1: of the most powerful people in the government, are women.

664
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 1: It's so saddening to me that they make it harder

665
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: for other women, particularly women less privileged than them. Anyway,

666
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 1: love the podcast, Keep up the good work. Big hugs

667
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: from Norway, inga big hugs from Atlanta, Georgia. Well, I've

668
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: got a let her here from Lauren. He writes, as

669
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: a young filmmaker, especially loved your series on rom coms.

670
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: Queering Romantic Comedies was my favorite of the series, But

671
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,359
Speaker 1: I disagree with some of your thoughts on the film

672
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: Kissing Jessica Stein. I hate the fact that Jessica ends

673
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 1: up with a man at the end spoiler Well. I

674
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: agree that sharing sexual fluidity is a positive and in

675
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 1: some cases realistic portrayal. I have a hard time with

676
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: media that depict women who start out in a relationship

677
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: with another woman and, regardless of her sexual orientation, ends

678
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: up with a man or has an affair with a man.

679
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: The kids Are all Right is another cringe worthy example.

680
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: The reason I'm so sensitive to this is because my

681
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: mom has had a hard time with my coming out,

682
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: and she's been stuck in denial for several years. She

683
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: keeps saying and implying and praying, I'm sure that I

684
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 1: will eventually figure out that I'm not actually gay, and

685
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: or that I will find a man, even though it's

686
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: true that some queer women are attracted to men and

687
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: some end up with men. When media portray this so often,

688
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: it gives ammunition to parents like my mom, who are

689
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: hoping that their daughters will wake up one day and

690
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 1: figure out that marrying a man is the only way

691
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: to truly be happy. Sexual orientation be damned. It also

692
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: reinforces the myth that queer women aren't real and are

693
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: only with women to attract mail attention. I want to

694
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: see more media with queer women having happy endings with

695
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: other women and men with men, of course, and this

696
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 1: is something I'm working on in my own films. Well

697
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: here here, Lauren, um, I completely agree with you, and

698
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: I am excited that you are in the film industry

699
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: because you send us a link to your first short

700
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 1: film and I can't wait to watch it. It's apparently

701
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: about a man facing sexism in the workplace in a

702
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 1: gender swapped world, which sounds right up our alley. So Lauren,

703
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: good luck with your filmmaking, and thank you for all

704
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: your thoughts, and thanks to everyone who's written into us.

705
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

706
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social

707
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and

708
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn so much

709
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: more about women in tattoos. Head on over to stuff

710
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: mom Never Told You dot com For more on this

711
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Visit how stuff works dot com.

712
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: Ye