1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Dear listener, we begin today in the fall of two 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: thousand and one. We start with a precocious seven year 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: old boy named Alejandro Erevia. He's living with his grandparents 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: in the Dominican Republic. For years, Alejandro heard from the 5 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: adults all around him that one day his parents would 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: return to take him with them to the United States, 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: and that one day has arrived. 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: The very last day before I left. 9 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: The thing that sticks in my mind is walking to 10 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 3: the car, looking out the window and seeing Junior, my 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 3: older brother, Ricky, my grandmother, and my grandfather. And I 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 3: remember it like a photo. I mean, that was my life. 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 3: They were standing in front of the house. That moment 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 3: sticks in my brain and I don't think I'll ever 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 3: forget it. 16 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: Even at the tender age of seven, Alejandro had a 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: deep sense of knowing inside of him. 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 3: Or I felt in my heart, even if I didn't 19 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,479 Speaker 3: have the language for it, as a seven year old, 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 3: that I would never return to that image of my 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 3: grandparents and my siblings and this world. 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: Soon, Alejandro was on a plane with his dad, a 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred mile journey from Santo Domingo to New York City. 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 3: I remember that I really hated being on a plane, 25 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 3: not because I was scared of height, although that became 26 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 3: apparent later on. I hated it because my ears hurt. 27 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: My ears were popping and they heard, and I was 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 3: really uncomfortable. 29 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: And then Alejandro would be in New York, the flashy 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: city he'd seen in photographs. 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: And then I remember arriving in the Bronx in the 32 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: apartment and being very disappointed in how the buildings looked 33 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 3: because in the Dominica Republic, I had only ever seen 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: images of downtown New York, and so all these beautiful buildings, 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 3: these high towers, and I thought that was all of 36 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 3: New York. And so when I arrived in the Bronx 37 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 3: and I see all these like break buildings, I was like, 38 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: what is this? 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just the buildings. The people waiting for 40 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: him in the big city didn't match the images in 41 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: his head either. 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 3: And then I get to the third floor and my 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 3: mother opens the door, and I didn't think much about it. 44 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 3: I just walked right past her. I didn't really recognize her. 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 3: But I think that moment is still telling of what 46 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 3: it is like to grow up without your parents, or 47 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 3: to meet your parents when you're seven, I couldn't have known. 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,799 Speaker 1: Like New York, Alejandro's mother to him existed in photographs 49 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: and in a foggy memory. 50 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: I had seen photos of my mom and she had 51 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: come to visit, I think a couple of years before, 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 3: when I was like maybe three or four, but I 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: didn't remember her by that point, and I walked past her, 54 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 3: and I think that really hurt her. 55 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: Alejandro was finally reunited with his parents, yes, but it 56 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: wasn't immediately the happy ending to his childhood dreams. 57 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 3: I was always afraid of the dark as a kid, 58 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: and I remember that on the phone. They had explained 59 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: to me before I went that I would be sleeping 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: on a sandwich bed, which is a bed that opens 61 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: and closes, and people use those when there is an 62 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 3: intern a space in an apartment, and I was like. 63 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: This is supposed to look like a sandwich. Where's the lettuce, 64 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: where's the bread? You know? 65 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 3: But I stopped on my sandwich bed, and I was 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: afraid it was weird. I think I was excited. It 67 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 3: felt to me like an adventure, but I was also 68 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: afraid of being alone. And I think that is something 69 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: that as a child I had to grapple with for 70 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: a very long time, and I think in part it 71 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: was because I had left behind my world. I left 72 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 3: behind my siblings, the people who had raised me. 73 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: All of that. 74 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: Soon Alejandro would start over a new language, a new city, 75 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: a new life, and with time he'd discover more of himself, 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: his love of writing, his queerness, his longing to understand 77 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: why people leave their homelands and how they build community 78 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: in a new land. These are some of the questions 79 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: that inspired Alejandro Eredia to write his debut novel, Loca, 80 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: and the answers he found were layered, complicated, and also 81 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: full of beauty. From Futro Media and PRX, It's Latino USA, 82 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm Mariano JSA Today a conversation about migration and queerness 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: with Afro Dominican author Alejandro Eredia. Producer Renardo Lanos Junior 84 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: has today's story for us. 85 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,119 Speaker 4: The bronx is so present in Alejandro Heredia's debut novel, 86 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 4: Loka that it becomes a character of its own, and 87 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 4: that's why I wanted to start my conversation with Alejandro 88 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 4: right here, Patients. Alejandro has black, curly hair, strikingly symmetrical eyebrows, 89 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 4: and an incredibly well groomed beard. He has a welcoming 90 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 4: air to him. So, Alejandro, can you set the scene 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 4: as to like, where are we at right now? 92 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 3: So we are on the corner of Grand Concourse and 93 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 3: one sixty seven. There's a bunch of cars passing by, 94 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: a bunch of New York City buses. There's people coming 95 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 3: in and out of the train station. So we're just 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 3: going to walk around my old stomping grounds where I 97 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 3: grew up when I first immigrated to the Bronx in 98 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: two thousand and one. 99 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 4: This community, home to one of the largest concentrations of 100 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 4: Dominicans in New York City, means a lot to Alejandro. 101 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 4: It's a place that helps shape him into the person 102 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 4: he is today. It's also where sal the queer Dominican 103 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 4: protagonist in Alejandro's book. 104 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: Grew up. 105 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 4: I don't think a lot of people get to experience 106 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 4: the Bronx, But for you, what is it about the 107 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 4: Bronx that makes it so special? 108 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: I always tell people that anything and everything that you 109 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: can learn about, the grace and the limitations and the 110 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 3: struggles of being a human being, you can learn about 111 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 3: just by hearing the stories that happen right here on 112 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: Grand concourse, we have incredible food here, we have incredible people. 113 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: It's a challenging place to grow up in, but it's 114 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,799 Speaker 3: also a place that taught me so much about street smarts, 115 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: about perseverance, about asking questions and being really curious. 116 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 4: As we walk, Alejandro points out his old and current hunts. 117 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 3: My aunt lived here in this building for a very 118 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: long time. My cousin and my grandparents also lived in 119 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: this apartment. My cousin still lives here, he's probably at work. 120 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 4: Can you paint a picture of what little Alexandro was, 121 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 4: you know, kind of growing up here in this community. 122 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 123 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 3: So I came to this country, into this neighborhood when 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 3: I was seven years old, and that's a very particular 125 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 3: time to come to a new country. I had to 126 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 3: learn English, and I had to learn it very very fast, 127 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 3: because learning to speak the language and speak it well 128 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: as a foremost survival. And again, the Bronx. 129 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: Is a beautiful place, but it's also a tough place 130 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 2: to grow up in, you know, in schools or bullies, 131 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 2: and I. 132 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: Had to be able to defend myself, and being able 133 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: to defend myself came with learning English very fast, I think, 134 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: because I was so hyper vigilant about language and words. 135 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 2: I became a very good student. 136 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 3: I remember in fourth grade seeing one of my essays 137 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: get a really good grade and feeling very good about myself, 138 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 3: feeling like, oh wow, like I've done something to be 139 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 3: proud of. And it came by way of language in 140 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: the written word. 141 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 4: That knack for writing would stay with him and he'd 142 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 4: harness it, sharpen it with time until he finally wrote 143 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 4: his novel Looka, which centers around two friends, Sal and Charro, 144 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 4: who each left the Dominican Republic for the Bronx. The 145 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 4: book has been described as a quintessential American novel. And 146 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 4: I really thought his writing was evocative, real, relatable, and 147 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 4: lace with the view that is so universal. I wondered 148 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 4: when first reading his book if that warmth in his 149 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 4: writing was shaped by his feelings for his parents and 150 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 4: in their own immigration stories. And obviously your mom also 151 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 4: had to have had her own experience coming here to 152 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 4: the Bronx settling in and I think that's also part 153 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 4: of the reason why you based Loka in the timeline 154 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 4: of the nineties, because this was around the time your 155 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 4: parents moved here as well. But what has your mom 156 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 4: told you about her own personal experiences of settling here 157 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 4: in New York. 158 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 3: I was particularly curious about writing, or interested in writing 159 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 3: about all of the great things, but also the challenges 160 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 3: of being in immigrants in this city in the nineteen nineties. 161 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 3: My mom, every time we walk down the street Grand 162 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: Concourse or drive through it, she points to like every 163 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: building that she lived in, and there are so many. 164 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: In just the span of a few years, she moved 165 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: around to so many different places. And it wasn't out 166 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 3: of a sense of adventure. It was out of a 167 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: you know how difficult it was. So even just rent 168 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 3: out a room, she had terrible roommates, or there were 169 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 3: rat infestations, or so many different struggles that she went through. 170 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 3: And that's evident just in the amount of places that 171 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 3: and buildings that she lived in on the Strip. 172 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 4: And I think one thing that you said recently, it's 173 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 4: kind of just been more important than ever to say 174 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 4: that you're like a writer from the Bronx, Right. 175 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I grew up feeling very ashamed about being from 176 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 3: the Bronx. The Bronx is a place that is deep 177 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 3: in myth. There are so many things that people believe 178 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: that they know about the Bronx, and when I was 179 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 3: a young person and a teenager, I internalize a bunch 180 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: of negative stereotypes about my hometown. And it wasn't until 181 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 3: my early twenties when I started to educate myself, when 182 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: I started to do community organizing, that I started to 183 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: gain a new found appreciation for this place. And then, 184 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: you know, by the time I sat down to write 185 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: the novel, it was clear in my mind that I 186 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: wanted to write about the Bronx, not just as a 187 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 3: place that is dangerous or a place that is dirty, 188 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: or a place that is all of these different negative stereotypes. 189 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 3: I wanted to write about the humanity of this place. 190 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 4: That mission to humanize the place in the world he 191 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 4: comes from, that's often so misunderstood, really comes through in 192 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 4: Alejandro's writing. At a time when queer immigrants like Alejandro 193 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 4: himself are so vilified, I wanted to ask him did 194 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: he have concerns about publishing his book during this presidential administration. 195 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: Now I definitely think about the importance of writing about 196 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 3: immigrant narratives, especially LGBTQ immigrant narratives, and it feels like 197 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: the work is more necessary than ever. There are so 198 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: many societal grand narratives about what immigrants are like in 199 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: a positive way, in a negative. 200 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: Way, whatever it might be. 201 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: And part of what I'm trying to do through this 202 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 3: novel is to show that immigrants are people, and that 203 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 3: means that they are varied and all different and all 204 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: have different stories to share. I think when we create 205 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 3: negative political narrative or positive political narratives, we put people 206 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: into boxes. And my job as a novelist is to 207 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: take my people out of boxes. 208 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,959 Speaker 1: When we come back, debut novelist Alejandro Redia tells us 209 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: about a relationship and a loss that shaped him forever, 210 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: also about writing queer characters and insisting on queer joy. 211 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: Stay with us, Yes, Hey, we're back. Latino USA producer 212 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: Renaldo Lanos Junior is going to continue his conversation with 213 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: author Alejandroredia in our Harlem studio. Here's Ronaldo speaking about 214 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: Alejandro's novel Looca. 215 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 4: I was able to get the advanced copy and I 216 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: finished it in like a day or two, Like it 217 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 4: was pretty quick. 218 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: That's awesome. 219 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 4: I really really enjoyed it. And in the advanced copy 220 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 4: you start off and literally by this first sentence, it says, 221 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen, my older cousin who is more like 222 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 4: my brother, died by suicide. That cousin was named Junior, 223 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 4: And you go on to talk a little bit about 224 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 4: how important he was too, and you say that writing 225 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 4: this novel saved you from self destruction, and so can 226 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 4: you talk a little bit about who Junior was and 227 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 4: just why he was so special too. 228 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, Junior and I grew up together in the 229 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: Dominican Republic up until I was the age of seven, 230 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 3: which is when I migrated. We were part of many 231 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: generations of children who are left behind by their parents 232 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: when their parents migrate somewhere else to try to find 233 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: the opportunity, and so we grew up as brothers. We 234 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: did everything together. Junior taught me how to ride a bike, 235 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: how to escape. We used to play baseball outside with 236 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 3: other kids. We did everything together. And when he passed 237 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 3: away in twenty eighteen, it was a real shock to 238 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 3: my system in so many different ways, and it pushed 239 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: me and created an urgency within me to try to 240 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: capture with language of the worlds from which we came from. 241 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 3: I think for a long time I sort of took 242 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: our vernacular and our dreams and our desires for granted, 243 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 3: as we often do in life. But when he passed, 244 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: I thought, I really want to honor his life and 245 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 3: our experiences. And none of the characters in the novel 246 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 3: are him or me or anyone in my life, but 247 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 3: it was important for me to capture the texture of 248 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 3: so much of our desire. 249 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: As young people. 250 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 4: What do you mean by that? 251 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 3: For example, we grew up watching Sex and the City, 252 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 3: and part of what we did often is that we 253 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 3: would dream that this In high school, we would dream 254 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 3: that we would be like those white girls in Sex 255 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 3: and the City, that we would go out dancing and 256 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: buy nice clothes and fall in love in and out 257 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 3: of love with men. And that was just our world 258 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 3: like that was just the way that our dreams worked 259 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: and desires that we had for ourselves, and we talked 260 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 3: about it openly and it was fun to dream in 261 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 3: that way. Some of those dreams never came true. There 262 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: are things that we didn't get to do together. But 263 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: I think often it's a symptom of being alive, that 264 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 3: we are often just moving through our day to day 265 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: and not thinking about how important the worlds and the 266 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: vernaculars that we come from are. Part of writing this 267 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: novel part of what I had to do was to 268 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: almost mystify and then demystify my own normal so that. 269 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: I could write it on the page. 270 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 4: When we were in the Bronx, we talked about your 271 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 4: love of the Bronx, the importance of that place, and 272 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 4: we also talked a little bit about migration. And another 273 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 4: big theme in your book is queerness and identity. I 274 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 4: heard you recently talk about Yadiel, who's, you know, unabashedly 275 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 4: kind of queer character in your book, who is not 276 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: worried about expressing himself. He's very just like present, living 277 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: his life. And I think you had said something on 278 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 4: along the lines of how, Yadiel, it's very different from you, 279 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 4: or at least like what's different from you, like growing 280 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 4: up and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but 281 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: that he was more in line with that cousin, Junior 282 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 4: walk me through that creative process of creating the characters 283 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 4: of Sao and the character of Yadiel, because I think 284 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 4: the relationship was just extremely beautiful. 285 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember one day Junior and I were on 286 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: a bus in the Bronx, and I don't know what 287 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: we were talking about, but I remember in that moment 288 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: looking at Junior and seeing how unapologetic he was about 289 00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 3: his mannerisms and his queerness. And I remember watching myself 290 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: feel ashamed about what other people might think, seeing two 291 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 3: queer people on a bus talking in this unapologetic way, 292 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 3: taking up space, and I remember feeling ashamed about that shame. 293 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: So there's so many layers of shame. And I think 294 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 3: that was something that I always admired about Junior, that 295 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 3: he was so willing to be himself wherever he went 296 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 3: in ways that I just could not. I was always 297 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 3: such an anxious young person, always so apologetic and hypervigilant 298 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 3: about how I would take up space. And I brought 299 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 3: some of the energy to the novel because I am 300 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 3: really curious about people like that who just refuse to 301 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 3: fold themselves in response to other people's criticisms or their 302 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 3: own shame. One of my favorite lines in the novel 303 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: is some people would rather be destroyed than be reduced. 304 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,439 Speaker 3: I think that is such an important value to keeping mind, 305 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: that there are just people that are not willing to 306 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 3: fold themselves for anyone, And I wanted to create this 307 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: contrast between these two characters in the novel, where one 308 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: of them was unapologetically queer and willing to defy and 309 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 3: push back against societal norms, and the other one feels 310 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,880 Speaker 3: like I'm going to do it but kind of halfway, 311 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 3: but also I'm really anxious and don't want to make 312 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 3: anyone uncomfortable. 313 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 4: In Just like hearing you speak and looking at the 314 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 4: novel as well, it seems that like a lot of 315 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 4: the way that this is created really stems from questions, right, 316 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 4: like imagining what your mom or your parents' journey from 317 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 4: Dominican Republic to the Bronx was. Is that how your 318 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 4: creative process works. 319 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 3: I think that so much of my writing begins with 320 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 3: asking myself what if? So one of the foundation of 321 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: questions at the center of the novel for me while 322 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 3: I was writing it was what if I would have 323 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 3: had a queer adolescence in the Dominican Republic? Because I 324 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 3: did not have that experience, Sala's experience is not my own. Also, 325 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: I asked myself, what if I would have had a 326 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 3: queer mentor to guide me and take care of me 327 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 3: through adolescence so that I could understand all the complicated 328 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 3: feelings that were coming up for me. And so I 329 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 3: wrote Ranada into the novel so that she could guide 330 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: Sayada through their queer coming of age. I'm really curious 331 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: about all the alternative ways that I could have or 332 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: might have lived my life, and then sometimes I transpose 333 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 3: that into characters. But I always make sure that I'm 334 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 3: creating a very big space or gap between myself and 335 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 3: the other characters. I want them to be their own people, 336 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 3: with their own desires, their own wants, their own needs. 337 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: I just really wanted to see queer Dominican people in 338 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 3: literary fiction. I wanted to bring queer Dominican vernacular to 339 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: this genre and this literary world that I love so much, 340 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 3: and I think that's what propelled me to work on 341 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 3: the book for so many years. I'm interested in creating 342 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 3: rigorous art and what I want to do that I 343 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 3: want to push people to think or feel something new 344 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 3: about the world that includes my own people, Dominican people, 345 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: queer people, but also people who have never been to 346 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: the Dominican Republic, or who have never been to the Bronx, 347 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 3: or don't know any queer people, whatever it might be. 348 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 4: And you know, you've also said that Looka is going 349 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 4: to much the queer Dominican life. I mean, there's men dancing, 350 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 4: but shat that together. There's gay sex, queer friendship, and 351 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 4: a lot more written within these pages of your novel. 352 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 4: But why was it intentional for you to have these moments, 353 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 4: these snapshots, these intimate moments of queerness within the pages 354 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: of Lucca. 355 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 3: I think it's because I grew up reading so much 356 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 3: immigrant literature, reading the works of Jamaica and Kate into 357 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 3: Each Dantica and Juno Diaz and so many different writers, 358 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 3: and it's like, queer people don't exist in those worlds. 359 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that those writers have a responsibility 360 00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 3: to write about queer people. They write about whatever they 361 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 3: want to writ about. But I saw a real absence 362 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 3: in the kinds of narratives that represented my own life 363 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: and the experiences of people around me, And so I 364 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 3: felt a responsibility from the very beginning in my first 365 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 3: novel to make sure that I said to the world 366 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 3: through my work that queer Dominican people are just as 367 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 3: deserving of rigor and intelligent writing. 368 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 4: I have to also bring up your your book launch, 369 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 4: your recent book launch, you hosted a Q and A 370 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 4: that was like followed by this like queer dance party. 371 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 4: I don't see a lot of that right, like parties 372 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 4: infused with these book talks, and in a lot of 373 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 4: ways it does, and for lack of a better word, 374 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 4: and this kind of sometimes like overused but queer joy. Now, 375 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 4: you know, just talk to me about the reason for 376 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 4: you wanting to fuse these two things together. 377 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,439 Speaker 3: So, when you're putting a book out into the world, 378 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: you have to think seriously about how you want your 379 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 3: book to live in the world and how you want 380 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: people to engage with it, especially in regards to events, 381 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 3: launch parties, all that stuff. And I thought, what better 382 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 3: way to honor the themes of the novel and the 383 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 3: energy of the novel than to throw a dance party 384 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 3: in which all the DJs are Dominican and queer, in 385 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 3: which the energy feels lively and exciting. We were in 386 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 3: Brooklyn at the Moxie Hotel and the Lily Star Space, 387 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 3: which is all the way upstairs. It has a beautiful 388 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 3: view of a bridge and the New York skyline, and 389 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 3: people were wearing really beautiful, colorful outfits and people were dancing. 390 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: At one point there was this huge cake that came 391 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 3: out that had the cover of Loca and. 392 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 2: That was beautiful to see. 393 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: At one point from my little corner of signing books, 394 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 3: I saw people voguing and creating a circle of dance. 395 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 3: It was like I was seeing some of the scenes 396 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 3: in the book alive in front of me, which is 397 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 3: just beautiful. I think sometimes in the literary world, because 398 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: we are all very serious, intense people, we tend to 399 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 3: go for the very serious and intense and we want 400 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: to create intellectual spaces, which I think is important. But 401 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 3: I think it's also important to remember that for me, 402 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 3: especially to remember that people come to books for all 403 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 3: kinds of different reasons. I have all of these deep, 404 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 3: deep thoughts about humanity and people and interiority and emotions, 405 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 3: and sometimes people just want to come to a book 406 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 3: to read about, you know, sexy stuff or parties or 407 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: fun or heartbreak, whatever it might be. And it's important 408 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 3: to try to find that balance. And we're thinking about 409 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: how we engage, how we put our art into the world. 410 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 4: If there was like one thing you hope people take 411 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: away from your book, what would that be? 412 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 3: I hope people take away that even in moments of 413 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: facing societal oppression or collective duress, collective suffering, homophobia, transphobia, racism, 414 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: whatever it might be, even in the face of all 415 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 3: these different structural barriers, we still have a responsibility to 416 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 3: show up as the best version of ourselves, giving the circumstance. 417 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 3: Part of what I was trying to do with this 418 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 3: novel was to show that these characters are surviving incredibly 419 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 3: violent situations and incredibly difficult situations, and part of their 420 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 3: journey is coming to thinking critically about their responsibility to 421 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 3: themselves and to one another. I think sometimes the way 422 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 3: that we talk about societal oppression or political oppression, whatever 423 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 3: it might be, the way that we talk about it 424 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 3: in our contemporary moment, it feels to me like we 425 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 3: take away some of our own agency. And this is 426 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 3: not to say that it is hard to be a 427 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 3: queer person, or a black person, or a Dominican person. 428 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 3: Speaking from personal experience, I know how challenging all these 429 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: things can be. And no government, no president, no mayor, 430 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 3: takes away my power to show up as the best 431 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 3: version of myself giving the circumstances. 432 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 4: You know, I think that's just beautifully said. Thank you, 433 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: thank you for being with us today on Latino USA. 434 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: Awesome. Thank you. 435 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: That was Latino USA producer Rinaldo Lanos Junior in conversation 436 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: with author Alejandro Rdia his debut novel is Loca. This 437 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Rinaldo Lanos Junior, who was edited 438 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,920 Speaker 1: by Andrea Lopez Cruzado and mixed by gabriel Lebyaz. The 439 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: rest of the Latino USA team includes Roxanna Guire, Julia Caruso, 440 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: Bevelicia Dominguez, Fernanda Chari, Jessica Ellis, Vittoria Strada, Dominique Estrosa, 441 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: Stephanie Lebaux, Luis Luna Marta Martinez, mur Saudi and Nancy Trujillo, Bellilee, Ramidez, Marlin, Bishop, 442 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: Mariarcia and I are co executive producers and I'm your 443 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 1: host Maria jo Josa. Join us again on our next episode. 444 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: Dear listener, remember find us on social media and as always, 445 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: not devayes pastella Proxima Chao. 446 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 5: Latino USA is made possible in part by the John D. 447 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 5: And Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the Ford Foundation, working with 448 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 5: visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide, and 449 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 5: the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation for more than fifty 450 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 5: years advancing ideas and supporting institutions to promote a better world. 451 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 5: At Hewlett dot org.