WEBVTT - Keith Foster 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.160 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:05.280 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:06.600 And when I find my ball in. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.720 A brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday, 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:12.360 Frida Bride Egg Lie. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:14.760 I'm about ready to run off the golf course. 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:43.120 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.640 Friday Podcast. Today, I welcome on Keith Foster, a golf 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:52.800 course architect who has done many beautiful restoration of classic 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.840 golf courses across the country and also has built up 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.639 an impressive list of solo designs. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:01.400 Keith, welcome up. 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:05.800 Hey, thanks so much Andy for having me. It's my pleasure. 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:07.080 Yeah, excited. 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.919 You know talk Golden Age architecture, some of your architecture. 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.039 I grew up playing Shepherd's Crook, one of your design 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.880 your public designs, and it's, as I call it, the Crook. 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.880 I think it's one of the best courses in Chicagoland 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.760 that anybody can play. But to kick things off, you know, 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.600 two of your most dramatic restorations that I've seen are 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.959 Philly Cricket Club and Marine Country Club, and each of 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:39.039 them you've you've taken out quite a few trees, and 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.319 I would I'm curious what you find to be the 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:49.560 biggest misconception with memberships, committees and just golfers in general 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:50.440 about trees. 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.400 Well, you know, I think, I think Andy, what really 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.000 happens on trees is that, you know, every golf course, 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:01.880 I don't care how old it is or how new 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:06.360 it is, there comes a time when someone's going to say, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.040 we could put a tree here, we could put a 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:13.000 tree there. And older golf courses they fell victim to. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.680 You know, when RTJ mister Jones was the man, the 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:23.360 open doctor in the fifties, you know, for US open 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.040 sites and so on, all these trees got planted. And 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.160 then Lady Bird Johnson in the sixties through arbor days 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.920 and so on. So all of these golf courses initially 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:38.000 started out not heavily treed, and then over time, you know, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.720 trees get planted here and there. And I think what's 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:45.320 interesting is most old school golf golf courses tend to 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.920 be wider in scale, because of course you have wider fairways, 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.560 you set bunkers on angles, and the game becomes and 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:55.680 should be a more strategic one. But then when trees 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.520 get planted in the fifties and they're small, and the 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.200 sixties are small, and all of a sudden, the trees 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:05.880 start growing, and it's a slow grow, but it starts 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:11.480 encroaching into the golf And then suddenly the ways start 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:16.560 moving and shifting away from the trees, and then golf 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.760 fairways start getting narrower. And so ultimately what happens is 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.240 that the golf course, many golf courses, are just skeletons 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:26.520 of what they used to be in terms of scale 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:30.480 and impact and strategy, so much so that like a 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.200 golf course like Moraine Wonderful Charming golf course, or Philly 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:39.400 Cricket for that matter, most charming great old school clubs, 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.160 they change the characteristics of their golf course and they 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.320 become narrow. I call it almost like bowling. Look, golf 0:03:47.440 --> 0:03:50.960 is a strategic game. Bowling, you know you're in a 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:54.400 narrow lane. And I think dimension is really important in 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.680 the game of golf. And so you know, I don't 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.440 really think you can get great restorations renovation work, and 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:03.880 I don't think you can return back to something really 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:08.520 truly epic unless tree removal is part of it. So 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:12.800 if a club is focusing on greens, bunkers, and tees, 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:14.920 and they're not really looking at trees. I think they're 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:15.600 short sighted. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.000 It seems like, you know, the trees have to come 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:22.400 down first, because then when you expand the greens, the 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:26.560 edges make all the more sense with the wider fairways. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.800 Right, Well, that's exactly right, and so you know, so 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:35.520 so often, you know, everyone focuses on green surrounds, bunkers, 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.680 and tees because those are the features, and those are 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:44.039 the features. But I think the missing component is scale, 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.760 and scale creates great golf. And you know, there was 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.559 this big movement towards twenty six yard wide fairways because 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:54.680 we all see them at the US Open, and oh 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.400 my gosh, for the tour players, we've got to create 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:00.960 tight hitting areas. But you know, for the majority of us, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.160 you know, we need wider areas to play golf. And 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.520 even so, the game is a game of options rather 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.520 than these narrow boundaries. And I think the game of 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:17.400 golf is wonderfully compelling when it has options, and we 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.240 as golfers, have options so that we can, you know, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.480 enjoy a more flexible game of golf. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:27.200 It is a lot of these courses especially the classic 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:31.560 golf courses when they hosted these major champions chips. It 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.840 was in the thirties, the forties, the fifties before all 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:39.400 this tree you know planting happened. So their best self 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:41.520 was actually when they had the fewest trees. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.960 Yes, and then of course when in the fifties and 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.920 sixties and seventies and eighties, we see all these national 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.200 championships being held on for the most part, tree line 0:05:55.240 --> 0:06:01.760 golf courses. So everyone who's looking at golf on television 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:06.279 or or you know, visiting these these big iconic golf 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.320 courses with trees both left and right, everyone comes back, 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:14.680 club members, board members, committee members, club presidents and go, 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.800 oh my gosh, look what this course has. Then they're 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.760 doing it right because they're hosting major championships. So we've 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.800 got to do that. And then, you know, something so 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:31.320 innocent and so respectful of the game, you know, dramatically 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.479 changes your golf course, and it changes it so slowly 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.000 over time that you just lose sight of what you had. 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.560 And that's why I think, you know, return of scale 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:46.200 and tree programs are so important, you know, to recapturing 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:47.640 the essence of the game of golf. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:49.640 The effect. 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:56.720 Yeah, so Sam Joe member of my club, or Sam 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.800 guy with a permanent tea time at a you know, 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:05.600 overgrown municipal course. What and I And you know, these 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:09.359 are readers or listeners of the of the podcast that understand, 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.520 you know, they need to cut down trees. What do 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.920 you think is the best way, since it's such a 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.840 sensitive topic to go about, you know, getting people on 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:20.280 board with getting rid of trees. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.680 Well, you know, so many, so many times everyone starts 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.440 keying in on the controversial trees, the ones that will 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.760 have true impact on holes. I tend not to suggest 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.600 doing that, you know, because I think what happens is 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.200 that memberships are golf course, you know, guys who play, 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:43.840 men and women, you know, need to understand the benefits 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.240 of tree removal. So instead of I don't usually attack 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:52.360 the big controversial trees first, I try to you know, 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.559 if there's fifty trees down the left side of one 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.040 of whole one, and there's one hundred and fifty trees 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.560 down the right side of whole one, what I'm going 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:07.200 to suggest is first taking the weak trees out, you know, 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.720 and there will be weak trees both left and right, 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.920 and I just suggest taking the weaker trees out to 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.560 create space, a little bit of space, and then what 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.200 you'll find is no one has any issues with any 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:22.400 of that. And then then you're able to push it 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.960 a little further and say, okay, look we're going to 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.040 take every fifth tree out here and every seventh tree 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.600 out there. And so suddenly this golf course starts opening 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.560 up softly. And then when people start buying into the idea, 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.480 wait a minute, this does look better. We have more 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.880 space to play golf, we have different views vistas. Then 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.160 I think you've got people on board and there'll be 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.080 a time to take controversial trees down. But I think 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:55.320 so many clubs focus on that one ty tree. Oh 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.560 my gosh, you know, that's the tree we've got to 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:59.880 focus on. I tend to do it the other way, 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.280 and I believe a softer approach is a better approach 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:05.000 in a lot of cases. 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:07.680 Get rid of those evergreens that are just you know, 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.280 random place next to a tea box. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:12.680 Yeah, that's exactly right. 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.320 Yeah, in terms of kind of your overarching you know, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.360 restoration process, and we'll talk a little bit about you know, 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:22.839 restoration since we started with trees, and then we'll get 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.839 into your solo work. But how does you know the 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:30.760 the restoration process start from you know, when you first 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:35.079 meet with say a club, to when you start doing 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.200 work and overtime getting closer to a finished project. 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:43.000 Yeah. So you know, for me personally, I'm more of 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.640 a relationship person. So you know, when I come in 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.880 to visit a club, you know, I'm you know, I 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:52.920 want to spend you know, the whole day out on 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.720 the golf course, and I want to go around the 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.400 golf course. I don't want to walk it quietly if 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.880 I want to spend time with the super tendant. And 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.360 I want to understand the golf course right, so I 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.920 have a general understanding of it, But the key on 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.640 it is, you know, one, I need to have an understanding. Two, 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.520 I need to love the golf course. And I need 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.920 to see the possibilities as far as what it can be, 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.560 not what it is, but what it can be and 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.240 what it should be. So I need to have those 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:24.240 things in my head and truthfully in my heart. And 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.280 then I need to then meet with the committee or 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:28.760 the board that I'm going to be meeting with, a 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:30.520 group of golfers that I'm going to be meeting with, 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:32.839 and really, I just want to listen to them a 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:36.280 little bit, and then eventually they're going to say to me, Keith, Okay, 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.520 what do you think? And I'm just going to say, Okay, 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:41.320 this is what I think, and this is what I 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:43.200 think you should be doing, and this is how I 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.000 believe you could get it accomplished. And then I'm going 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:49.079 to look at their reactions to what I'm saying. And 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.160 you know, you know, I'm a good read generally on 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.240 people only because I pay attention, and you know, I'm 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.720 going to look at them and you know, they're either 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.560 going to look at me and go, guy, Keys, he's clueless, 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.640 or you know, what he's saying makes sense. And then 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.400 based on my relationship with them and their relationship to me, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:16.160 you know, it either affirms or confirms that I shouldn't 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.280 should or shouldn't be there. And that's key because ultimately 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.480 I'm going to be forming a close relationship with these 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:26.760 people that I'm going to be working with. They've got 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:28.640 to trust me and I've got to trust them, and 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.400 we're working on this thing together. And I like that 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.320 because I want to be part of something that's bigger 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.640 than me, that's important, and I understand the weight of it. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.360 And I think that's the real key is that you know, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.160 there's been so many golf courses that have been touched 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.880 too heavy handedly, and so what happens is the work 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:57.840 either doesn't endure or doesn't have value. And I'm just 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:00.679 very mindful that I want to produce stuff. I want 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.360 to produce work that is enduring, that you know, stands 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.319 a test of time, that is timeless, that is classic, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.520 that you know, honors and respects the courses that I 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.640 work for and who I work for to so so 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:16.800 it's all based on relationships, Katie. 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:18.920 How much how much time do you do a lot 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.520 of work before you even go there studying you know, 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.160 say old aerols or or you know, I mean, how 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.439 much of this job when you're doing a restoration as 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:29.719 being like a historian. 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.080 Okay, I don't before I go anywhere, I don't study 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.760 their course, I don't look at maps. I don't really care, 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.120 you know, And I know that's going to be very 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.240 shocking to maybe you even And I'm not looking at 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.160 a golf course as an archaeological dig. You know, what 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.439 I want to do is okay, if it's a tilling 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.560 has golf course, I understand the characteristics of tilling Has. 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.760 If it's a Ross course, I understand the characteristics of Ross. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:03.840 If it's Allison, I understand the characteristics of Alison. If 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.200 it's Maxwell, I understand the characteristics of Maxwell. So I 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:11.280 inherently already have a foundation. And that foundation I have 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:16.240 is pretty strong. So I don't need to see what 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.360 they did here or there. I need to see it 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:21.480 in the ground, and I need to feel it in 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:27.000 the ground, and then I can see what happened and 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.000 what's missing. If I spend a full day out on 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:32.880 a golf course, and I would probably say if a 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:37.280 golf architect can't do that, the club probably shouldn't hire him, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:43.120 And so, you know, so I can see it, and 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.120 I think in the end, I just want to talk 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.040 with people about what they want, what I believe possible, 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.560 and how we work together on it. Now, if I 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.880 am the right guy and I am part of it, 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:03.920 then I will extra every aerial, every image, everything that 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:08.080 I can, so that I have a foundation most importantly 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.200 of what it was. And not only you know in 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:14.040 the nineteen thirty nine aeril, but I want to track 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.760 it in forty nine, fifty nine sixty nine seventy nine. 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:18.880 I want to be able to track what was done 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.360 and when it was done and why it was done, 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:25.600 so that I understand, you know, what really happened over 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.600 that eighty or ninety years. And that's equally important because 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:33.000 you need to be able to, you know, figure out 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.240 who did what, when they did it, when the trees 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:37.640 got added, what pa got added here and there. So 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:42.280 I'll study all of that once I'm hired, before I 0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:44.479 craft my first plan. 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.440 And then the you know, the master plan, and then 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.760 it goes through iterations and you you know, you worked 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.680 a final product and then you start going on a timeline. 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.560 Right, Yeah, that's absolutely right. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.560 So having worked on you know, you listed off a 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:05.840 hit list of you know, some of the greatest architects 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:06.480 of you. 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:07.440 Know, the Golden Age. 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:11.520 Which architect would you say that you've gained the most 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.480 appreciation for through their work like that, you you know, 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:19.560 maybe had one you know, thought of, but now that 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.200 you've gotten so in the weeds, you just really love like. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:24.080 What they do. 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.920 Well, you know. I think what's interesting is that Alison 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.080 McKenzie was asked when he was at the pinnacle of 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.400 his career, why did he think Saint Andrew's is such 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:42.040 a sensational golf course. And you know, the comment was 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:45.360 made by him, which is he believed that Saint Andrew's 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.680 was as great as it is because he was convinced 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:53.800 that very little was known about golf architecture, and they 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.440 just kind of took it for what it was. And 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:03.080 I think sometimes we overanalyze all this enough, like, for instance, Moraine. 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:08.040 You know, if I mentioned to you Knipper Campbell and 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:12.120 all of your antique I'm sorry, your architectural guys who 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.680 love antique and crafted old kind of golf courses, they 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.560 would say, who in the world is Nipper Campbell. He's 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:22.200 not tilling Has, he's not Alice, and he's not Ross, 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:26.200 he's not Mackenzie, he's not Maxwell, he's not Rainer, So 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.640 how good is his golf course? But the truth is 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:36.280 Moraine was done by Knipper Campbell and it was a charming, wonderful, 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.680 well thought out golf course. And so you know, I 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:45.040 think what's exciting is, you know, to find these gems 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.720 that are off the radar, and that's the work that 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.600 I like to do most. I'd much rather take a 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:55.440 golf course that you know is is maybe a little 0:16:55.640 --> 0:17:00.280 of an obscure gem and polish that and reset act 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.480 because it forces me to pay even more attention to 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.000 you know, the little nuances in the details, which I 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:09.120 really love. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:10.240 Yeah. 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.800 I just finished right in my uh right up on 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.240 Marine actually this afternoon, and it's like, you know, Nipper, 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:17.800 you see so many of the guys that you know, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.240 Nipper Campbell had a similar pedigree of a ross And 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.520 I think that golf course if you put, if you 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:28.120 attach a big name architect tech to it, it would 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.560 have been considered, you know, one of the you know, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.159 greatest golf courses in you know, the mid Atlantic or 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.760 whatever you call Ohio Dayton, Ohio's region. But because it 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.480 doesn't have that name brand, it gets kind of hurt. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:44.439 But you go there, and you know, I played my 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.359 USM qualifier there this year, and I mean I was 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.199 absolutely blown away getting to play it three times in 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:50.879 two days. 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.000 It was you know, you. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:57.040 You gained such an appreciation and it still stands up today. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:57.399 You know. 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.879 And the principles were so simple they use He uses 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:04.880 the land so well there. But he's not a household name, 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.080 but he grew up playing you know, great Scottish courses 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:10.600 and then you know it was around great golf in America. 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.600 Yeah, And what's nice about that is I was able 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.000 to take the best qualities that Knipper Campbell did and 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.840 the areas where maybe I needed to improve or embellish, 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.399 I was able to do it without having to justify anything. 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.200 And and so I, you know, I was respectful of 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.639 Knipper Campbell, and more importantly, I was respectful of Moraine 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:39.960 and the ground. And then all I wanted to do 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.439 is just make sure that Nipper Campbell got the credit. 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.080 And then I just executed the work flawlessly or the 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.240 best I could. And then you know, highlight some of 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.560 the features that he did do and then insert other 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.320 elements that are similar or compatible to what he would 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.959 have done or should have done, and then I just 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:07.440 embellished them and executed it, you know, hopefully better than 0:19:07.480 --> 0:19:09.840 he would have done it back in the day. And 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:11.400 you know that's what I try to do. 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.399 What what did you say, and what would you find 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:17.960 like that? What would you say his weakness was that 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:20.399 you kind of worked on the most. 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.480 Well, I don't you know, I don't think any golf architect. 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.840 You know, look when kill he built his golf course 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:33.240 back when let's say, or anybody years later, golf course 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.320 maintenance and practices and all these all of these things 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:40.400 that make golf courses now much better and tighter and 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:44.280 more enduring. You know, uh, there is no perfect person. 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.760 There's no perfect golf course architect. You know. Every golf 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:53.359 course architect you know produces work based on what they're doing. 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:58.520 I mean, you know, Killing has work has been improved 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.600 by people working on it and dialing the details in, 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.520 and Nipper Campbell's work is the same, you know. So 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.280 I don't really look when I'm working on people's projects 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.160 like a Maxwell or chilling House or Ross or Nipper Campbell. 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.159 I don't look at where their weaknesses are. I just 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.240 look at what they did and how can I take 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:27.600 what they did and make it better. So I don't 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.119 really look at flaws like my wife will say, my gosh, Keith, 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:34.119 you know you know about this person that person, And 0:20:34.160 --> 0:20:37.320 I just don't hear anything negative. I don't see anything negative. 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:39.919 I don't hear anything negative, and I don't ever dwell 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.120 on negative. I just focus on how it can be 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:47.240 better and call it that, and then just try to 0:20:47.600 --> 0:20:49.439 dial in my work and make it the best that 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:49.840 it can be. 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:52.639 See, I need to spend more time with you. 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.240 I go to so many you know, I see these 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.399 like especially municipal courses that are Golden age courses, and 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.320 you know all that's been done to them and how 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:03.080 they've been treated. 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.280 I just I get like, I'm. 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.640 Excited because they could be so good, but then I'm 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.600 just so sad about what they are. 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.359 Well, And I think what happens unfortunately with municipal golf 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.639 courses are that at least the best courses in the 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:26.120 country are able financially to hire the best golf architects 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.040 in the country to do the most sensitive work. Okay, 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.760 municipal golf courses, on the other hand, you know can't 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:38.359 take you know, they take the cheapest guy, the cheapest architect, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:43.440 they take the cheapest contractor, and they expect great results 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.560 with such great limitations. So the truth is, you know, 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:53.639 they have no chance of being really great because you know, 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:59.800 they're they're picking fruit, the lowest hanging fruit. And that's 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:03.000 no that's no disrespect to the guys that are doing 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:05.320 the work. They're doing the best work that they can do. 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:09.119 But it's kind of like in my career, if I 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.760 you know, I believe I am doing my best work 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:17.240 ever right now now at thirty thirty five. When I'm 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.960 starting out, I'm doing the best work that I can. 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.639 Then I don't have the wealth of experience that I 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.159 do now and the weight of my work and my 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.560 eye and so even though I'm doing the best work 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.800 that I can at thirty thirty five, I'm probably doing 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.720 more than I should be. And I don't have the resources, 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.040 you know, and the appreciation of the game as I 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:43.000 do now. And every golf architect's the same way, so 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:45.800 we all have to start out a certain place. And 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:47.800 just like me, I mean I started, you know, I 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:51.880 played golf on am a municipal golf course because my parents, 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:56.040 we weren't country club people, So you know, I grew 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:58.560 up on a municipal golf course because we couldn't afford 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:02.080 anything better. And I learned playing golf on a municipal 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.520 golf course because that's all my family could afford. So 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:11.119 I come from that kind of grassroot as opposed to 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.399 a pedigree of you know, playing at you know, exclusive 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:17.159 private club. 0:23:17.880 --> 0:23:18.160 Yeah. 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:21.280 Yeah, I mean I grew up playing the local muni 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:23.919 and it's amazing to me how many people that I 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.280 have on this podcast grew up, you know, playing the 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.720 local muny that get into golf and do you know, 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:35.879 big things, it's a municipal golf is it's such a 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:40.200 I've gotten wrapped up into it and it's been it 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:42.119 just it drives me nuts. 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:43.320 But then there's also. 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.280 Such a beauty to it of you know when you 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:47.600 see people out at a good municipal course. 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:51.760 Well, that's right, I mean, and you know that's what's 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:54.800 so wonderful about our game. I mean, the game of 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:59.480 golf is such an intriguing, captivating game, even at a 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.720 level at a municipal golf course, there's great charm in it, 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:06.159 and I think for most time, I believe it's actually 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:08.600 the simplest form and the nicest form of golf where 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:12.400 it's just not overdone, and I think, you know, there's 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.320 great joy in that and just being able to play 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:19.120 the game as opposed to expecting everything to be perfect. 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:23.520 Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask, you know, getting 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:27.280 into your solo designs, you know, one of the themes 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:29.240 I see when I look through them is that so 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:33.000 many of them are affordable under one hundred and hundred 0:24:33.000 --> 0:24:36.679 and fifty dollars, grape spots and areas to play golf. 0:24:37.200 --> 0:24:39.840 Is that something that you went into you know, the 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.840 design process with is you know, is building affordable golf? 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:48.280 Actually? No, you know, I wish I could say to 0:24:48.359 --> 0:24:52.560 you Andy, oh yes, this was something that I wanted 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:54.960 to do when I carefully crapped in my career to 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:58.639 do that. The simple truth is, you know, when I 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.800 left art Hills to create my own firm, who was 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:06.720 going to hire me? So, you know, the jobs that 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:10.159 I could get were the jobs that I got. You know, 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:13.440 I believe that I get the work that I'm supposed 0:25:13.440 --> 0:25:16.800 to get, and I don't get work that I'm not 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:20.359 supposed to get. So when I started my firm, sure, 0:25:20.680 --> 0:25:23.639 you know, no really high end people that are going 0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:27.480 to charge huge money are going to hire me. They're 0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:31.080 going to go Fazio, Rhys Jones and art Hills, the 0:25:31.119 --> 0:25:33.639 guy that I used to work for. You know, why 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.840 would they give me an opportunity? However, the municipal golf 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:41.320 courses would look at my background, my foundation, and my 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:47.080 fee is cheap. So I got an opportunity there. And 0:25:47.160 --> 0:25:49.919 so when when I left art Hills to create my 0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:53.160 own firm, you know the only work I could get 0:25:54.040 --> 0:25:57.439 and the only work that was presented to me happened 0:25:57.440 --> 0:26:00.880 to the municipal golf courses. And I started my career 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:04.879 and just trying to earn a living doing that. And 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:09.480 I felt very, very comfortable doing that because, you know, 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:11.480 and it just so happened that they were affordable golf 0:26:11.480 --> 0:26:14.680 courses and that's where the game was, you know, at 0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:19.080 that time. And then all of a sudden, right around 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:22.760 two thousand, something happened in my little career. And you know, 0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:25.040 so for the first four or five years of my 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:29.040 career as a solo person, you know, in the late 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:32.080 nineties up to two thousand and two thousand and one 0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:35.439 and two, the only work I was doing was daily 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:39.439 fee golf, municipal golf. And I really wasn't working on 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:43.200 renovation or restoration of golf courses. I was focusing on, 0:26:43.880 --> 0:26:45.679 you know, public golf. 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:50.520 What change that you got over to the you know, 0:26:50.600 --> 0:26:54.200 doing so many restorations. What was the kind of first 0:26:54.240 --> 0:26:56.800 project or you know, shit turning. 0:26:56.480 --> 0:27:04.560 Point, Well, two things happened to me. And the first 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:09.560 thing was, okay, so you know, I start my business. 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:15.080 I'm in my early thirties, and I'm doing some work 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:18.800 and everything's going great. I'm very thankful, I'm very happy. 0:27:18.920 --> 0:27:21.879 All of it's good. And then a notable club calls 0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:25.119 me and said, Keith, can you come out and take 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:28.800 a look at our golf course? And I said sure, 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:32.200 and you know it was it was a notable golf course, right, 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:34.879 And so my job was just to make sure that 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:38.320 what they were doing. I'm not rethinking their golf course. 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:40.600 I'm just making sure that what is going to be 0:27:40.680 --> 0:27:42.879 done is going to be done well, you know, because 0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:44.520 I do have a maintenance background. I do have a 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:48.480 construction background, you know, and I worked for Art Hills, 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:51.439 so you know, my foundation is pretty solid. But at 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:55.400 the same time, I go to Chicago and my mentor 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:58.960 takes me to Chicago and this is all around two thousand, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:04.360 thousand and one. And my mentor, who I have such 0:28:04.400 --> 0:28:06.359 a great deal of respect for it is probably one 0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:08.840 of the most talented men in the game of golf. 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:11.320 And you're most of the people that are going to 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:14.560 listen to your podcast don't even know his name, but 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:21.000 he is, you know, he is the most talented, soft spoken, articulate, 0:28:22.359 --> 0:28:25.680 you know, gifted with you know, with a great eye 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:28.880 in the business and so I met him in Chicago 0:28:29.359 --> 0:28:31.800 and we played two golf courses one day and two 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:35.280 golf courses the next day. We play Shore Acres in 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:38.800 Chicago golf one day, and then we play two other 0:28:38.920 --> 0:28:41.040 big name golf courses. And I don't want to say 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:43.880 and the comment, you know, And then he said to me, 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:47.560 he said, okay, Keith, what do you think what's the difference? 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:52.880 And I said, well, I said, the first day we 0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:58.880 played enduring classic architecture that was great and always will 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:02.800 be great. The second day we played something that's just 0:29:02.920 --> 0:29:08.080 flash in the pan, that's just overrated and not enduring. 0:29:09.360 --> 0:29:11.240 And he said, well, what do you think, Keith? And 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:15.520 I said, I don't want to do the latter. I 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:18.280 want to be part of only enduring work. And at 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:21.360 that time I returned home told my wife. I said, Pam, 0:29:21.360 --> 0:29:23.040 I'm going to take She said, Keith, what are you 0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:24.480 gonna do? And I said, I'm going to take less 0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:27.440 work and I'm going to focus more on making sure 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:31.160 if I work on any project that I'm committed to 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:36.760 great and I'm committed to enduring work, timeless work, seamless work. 0:29:37.520 --> 0:29:40.280 And I broke my firm. I just broke my firm down, 0:29:40.360 --> 0:29:42.880 and I said, I want to do great. How do 0:29:42.960 --> 0:29:44.840 I do great? The only way I can do great 0:29:44.880 --> 0:29:47.400 is spend more time than anybody else is on a job. 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:51.440 And I'm going to focus on details, and it's not 0:29:51.520 --> 0:29:53.120 going to be about me. It's going to be about 0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:57.240 the game of golf and great results. 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:01.320 I mean, it's a quality over quiet. I have to 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:02.440 ask who's the mentor. 0:30:04.600 --> 0:30:07.800 So my mentor was a gentleman by the name of 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:15.480 Brent Wadsworth from construction. Yes, and but the head of 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:22.320 head of Wadsworth is Brent Wadsworth, and Brent Wadsworth. Somehow, 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:26.520 when I'm twenty seven years old, I began working for 0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:31.640 Wadsworth Company, and I had the good fortune that Brent 0:30:32.840 --> 0:30:35.360 saw something in me and took an interest in me 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:40.800 and invested himself in me, and he taught me so much, 0:30:42.320 --> 0:30:47.920 and I am just so thankful for him. And I mean, 0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:50.160 I've worked for a lot of architects, and I've seen 0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:54.600 a lot of people do work, but you know, his, 0:30:54.920 --> 0:31:00.080 I his attention to detail, his ability to communicate and 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:05.360 and do so in a soft way still to this day, 0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:09.479 is just a marvel to me. And you know, I 0:31:09.560 --> 0:31:13.600 recognized it then and years all these years later, which 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:16.280 is what you know, twenty five twenty years twenty five 0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:20.480 years later, Yeah, twenty five years later, he's still you know, 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:26.080 he is my my baseline, and so I have a 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:29.760 long way to go to get to him, but you know, 0:31:29.920 --> 0:31:33.040 just in terms of eye and talent and communication skills 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:35.560 and all that, but you know, he is my goal. 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:40.800 Yeah, this is Chicago is an interesting place for it 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:44.040 to happen because I mean, I'm from here, so I've 0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:47.520 got a general idea of where I probably have an 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:48.760 idea of one of the courses. 0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:50.240 I'm not positive on the second. 0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:53.200 But yeah, short akers in Chicago golf are going to 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:56.680 be good for probably another one hundred or two hundred years. 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:00.760 Well, you know, look, whatever any of us do in 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:05.760 our careers, right, whatever it is, you know, if our work, 0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:12.000 whatever we do, can endure, you know, no different than art, literature, music, whatever. 0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:14.840 But if our work can endure and whatever we do, 0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:19.720 you know, that's that really matters. I mean, you're doing 0:32:19.760 --> 0:32:22.920 something that is meaningful and you're you know, what you're 0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:27.360 doing has weight, and that's what I wanted to do. 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:30.480 And you know, I don't want to be negative about 0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:33.520 anybody's work and what was there. But what it did 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:37.680 is it gave me a look at what the difference was. Yes, 0:32:38.080 --> 0:32:41.880 and you know, and I've always held to that, and 0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.880 I was so thankful that Brent suggests that I come 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:48.800 to Chicago and you know, just did that and he 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:51.800 let me see the difference and I felt the difference, 0:32:51.840 --> 0:32:54.720 saw the difference, and committed to the difference. 0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.960 So you know, it was just changing gears a little. 0:33:00.080 --> 0:33:04.320 That I'm curious when you get a course that has like, 0:33:04.520 --> 0:33:08.080 you know, multiple architects throughout time, like so you know, 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:10.000 one that comes to mind in Chicago is like a 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:13.480 place like Skoky that's had you know, Donald Ross's work 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:17.760 on it, William Langford and Theodorma. 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:18.600 Rowe work on it. 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:21.959 Like how do you go about places that have had 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:27.120 you know, change, you know a couple of times throughout 0:33:27.320 --> 0:33:30.480 you know, their early years from you know, you know, 0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:33.920 seemingly great architects. 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:38.280 Yeah, so you know, like like for instance, Okay, Skokie. 0:33:38.800 --> 0:33:41.280 I'm familiar with Skoky to a certain extent, but not 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:44.000 really because it's not my project and I didn't study 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:48.200 it and I didn't do it right. So but so 0:33:48.560 --> 0:33:51.480 I can't really comment about that. However, like Philly Cricket, 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.000 for instance, killing has did the routing and William Flynn 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:59.120 came in three years later. Yep, So then I have 0:33:59.240 --> 0:34:03.560 to extract what Tilly did and what Flynn did, and 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:08.279 you know, what had more merit and what was the 0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.719 reason that Flynn was brought in. So for instance, when 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:14.880 Ross comes in and then Langford comes in at Skokey, 0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:17.479 why you know, you have to ask a question why 0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:19.600 was Langford brought in? Yeah? 0:34:20.640 --> 0:34:23.080 Now that is an example, but I figured you'd have, 0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:25.240 you know, something else that would be similar. 0:34:25.520 --> 0:34:29.120 Yeah, So what happens there is there has to be 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:33.280 a reason why another architect was then brought in either 0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:37.360 you know, either it was architectural, or it was maintenance 0:34:37.440 --> 0:34:41.920 related or is construction related or you know, for instance, 0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:45.400 with Langford and Moreau, how about they were based in Chicago. 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:50.520 So if Skokey you have Ross, who's not based in Chicago, 0:34:50.840 --> 0:34:54.520 Ross does it the club has someone that they want 0:34:54.560 --> 0:34:57.239 to turn to for other things like maybe adding a 0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:02.279 bunker here, doing something else. Ringford and Moreau are in Chicago, 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:06.560 they seem to be the logical choice, right, So it 0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:09.920 might be something as simple as that. However, on the 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:13.759 other hand, if you have one golf course by a 0:35:13.800 --> 0:35:19.000 notable architect, you know, where it's really a problem is Okay, 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:22.120 Let's say, for instance, Skokie was there, and then you 0:35:22.239 --> 0:35:26.240 had Ross and Langford Moreau, and then in the fifties 0:35:26.280 --> 0:35:28.759 and sixties and seventies and eighties it was touched by 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:34.480 three other architects. Then you have to come back and say, okay, 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:38.400 what is meaningful and what are you going to strip back? 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:42.920 And in that regard, a lot of golf courses have 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:48.319 been obviously affected, you know, by many other architects, and 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:52.400 many other green committees and many other club presidents. So 0:35:52.440 --> 0:35:56.480 I think in the end, golf course renovation, restoration, whatever 0:35:56.520 --> 0:36:02.120 it is, sometimes you know, it's stripping away the work 0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:04.879 that shouldn't have been done. And I think ultimately that's 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:08.680 what golf course renovation is, and sensitive restoration and renovation is. 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:11.760 You have to strip away what shouldn't have been done, 0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:15.600 whether it's tree removal, t placement, angles fair away with 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:19.880 and even other architects. You know, I think most clubs, 0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:23.920 you know, make the mistake that every architect, if you're 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.200 a golf architect, you're a golf architect and you're going 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.960 to get the same results with different architects. You're not, 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:35.560 you know, uh, you know, there's there's levels of expectations 0:36:35.680 --> 0:36:40.560 and and and gifts and talents and so different golf 0:36:40.680 --> 0:36:43.000 architects are going to see golf holes differently. 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:47.440 It's and the do It's like one of the beauties 0:36:47.480 --> 0:36:49.920 of it is that you know, if you give you 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:52.640 get if you get thirty golf course architects one land 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:58.040 piece of land, you'll get thirty completely different you know works. 0:36:57.840 --> 0:37:02.319 That's that's exactly right. However, one of you, one of 0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:07.760 them is going to produce enduring work. That's the difference. 0:37:08.320 --> 0:37:10.920 So let's say if you give a golf architect, you know, 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:14.719 thirty guys this piece of property and they produce it. 0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.400 Of those thirty, how many are really going to produce 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:22.120 Depending on what thirty guys you ask, how many of 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:25.320 those thirty guys are going to produce enduring work, work 0:37:25.360 --> 0:37:28.920 that will last. That's the key right there. 0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:30.319 Well, it's like. 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:33.799 You probably could do a good amount of math from 0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:36.400 how many bad courses there are and come to a 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:37.680 reasonable conclusion. 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:40.280 Agreed. 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:45.280 So Harry Richards. 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:50.239 One of our listeners, asked, what's been your most challenging restoration. 0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:56.760 Well, you know, I mean I really appreciate the question 0:37:56.880 --> 0:38:01.520 on it. Yeah. I tend to think the most challenging 0:38:01.600 --> 0:38:04.760 renovation of restoration that I'm working on at the time 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:10.440 is the most challenging one to me. Like every renovation 0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:14.120 project or any restoration project has its own challenges, right, 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:17.279 I mean it really does, because everything is unique and 0:38:17.440 --> 0:38:22.000 interesting and different, but for different reasons. Everyone has its 0:38:22.040 --> 0:38:25.640 own challenge. Like Philly Cricket. Philly Cricket's challenge was, this 0:38:25.719 --> 0:38:29.360 is Tilling has home course, Keith. This is me saying 0:38:29.400 --> 0:38:32.200 it to myself, Keeth, you better not screw this up. 0:38:32.760 --> 0:38:37.400 This is Tilling has Home Course. Okay. On the other hand, 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:41.279 Moraine Moraine hires me. My gosh, Keith, We've got to 0:38:41.280 --> 0:38:46.160 produce something really, really strong because the club is, you know, 0:38:46.239 --> 0:38:48.839 putting all this responsibility on me, and I don't want 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:52.439 to let them down. I want to honor them. I'm 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:54.759 working right now at a club called apple Wamas, the 0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:59.279 Appowamas Club. It's quirky, it's funky, it's different. But this 0:38:59.360 --> 0:39:04.200 thing is on and it's challenging. There's nothing easy about that. 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:09.600 So I think, really I just try to focus on 0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:13.800 the work that I'm doing right then, and I recognize 0:39:13.800 --> 0:39:17.880 that their challenges and I've got to solve them or 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:21.080 help solve them or be part of the solution. And 0:39:22.239 --> 0:39:25.680 you know, I've had one or two that are easy, easier, 0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:31.080 But you know, you have committees members that you've got 0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:34.560 to exceed their expectations. You have budgets, you know that 0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:38.160 you have to manage, you have timelines with different contractors. 0:39:38.560 --> 0:39:41.319 And you know every golf architect he doesn't have the 0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:43.839 same contractor doing the work, so you have to still 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:47.920 get great results with different contractors. And that's in itself 0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:51.040 is its own challenge. So I think right now, I'm 0:39:51.080 --> 0:39:54.839 working on three projects right now right and of the three, 0:39:55.600 --> 0:39:59.160 the Applewamas Club is a greater challenge because it is 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:03.440 so difficul Everything about it is hard. But you know 0:40:03.560 --> 0:40:06.160 last year's projects. You know, if I'm doing three in 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:09.600 a year, of those three, one of them is going 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:12.520 to be the most difficult, and then the other two 0:40:12.600 --> 0:40:15.200 become a little easier because they're compared to the more 0:40:15.239 --> 0:40:16.839 difficult one. 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.760 Yeah, obviously like having you know, some projects are bigger 0:40:20.800 --> 0:40:22.759 than other projects, But is it just. 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:25.760 Do you think three is kind of your sweet spot. 0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:31.160 Yeah, well, and I try to do that. I mean, look, 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:35.399 I could do more golf and I could do more work, right, 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:38.720 And the way I do more golf and more work 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:41.600 is I take more projects and I spend less time 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:45.440 on them. I mean really, that's what golf architects do. 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.959 You take you get more work, and when you get 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:52.200 more work, what you're saying is to do more work, 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:56.120 I have to spend less time on the projects that 0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:58.760 I get because you know, you only have so much time. 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:02.400 Like I work, you know, seventy to eighty hours a week. 0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:05.840 That's how much I work. So if I'm working seventy 0:41:05.840 --> 0:41:08.840 to eighty hours a week, I leave every Monday morning 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:12.440 five am, I get home Friday night at midnight, okay, 0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:17.280 and then Saturday I'm drawing. Sunday I'm with my family. Okay. 0:41:17.320 --> 0:41:21.560 But that's what I'm doing. And I can only handle 0:41:21.640 --> 0:41:27.319 three programs at a time because the week can only 0:41:27.440 --> 0:41:30.840 generate so many days. So I spend a day and 0:41:30.880 --> 0:41:35.040 a half two days per project each week when I'm 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:40.000 doing them. So that's why three is, you know it. 0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:43.480 I can't do any more than that, you know, because 0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:46.920 there's just not enough time. And you know, that's how 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:49.680 much time I want to spend on the projects because 0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:51.480 I want to produce great work. 0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:53.719 That's what you said at the beginning. You want to 0:41:53.760 --> 0:41:56.040 do less but do better work. 0:41:56.280 --> 0:42:02.120 And yeah, it's the crazy thing about architects and architecture. 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:06.480 You're you're like an unknown for a while, and then 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:08.440 you get popular and then you. 0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:11.960 Have too much work. And you know, so you see 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:15.520 it all the time where sometimes people take on too. 0:42:15.440 --> 0:42:17.800 Much and then they go back to doing little, and 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:21.720 it's it's a really it's an industry that's so different 0:42:21.800 --> 0:42:23.000 than almost any. 0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:24.080 Other profession. 0:42:25.239 --> 0:42:28.080 And you're a spot on andy. And so my wife, 0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:34.239 who is fantastic, she reminds me, Keith, you just need 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:38.960 to learn how to say no more. And and that's 0:42:39.000 --> 0:42:43.040 hard because all of us want to please our clients. 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:47.160 But you know, I'm always reminded that I need to 0:42:47.200 --> 0:42:51.200 get the work that is right for me. And that's why, 0:42:51.800 --> 0:42:55.360 you know, I look at people and relationships and you know, 0:42:55.440 --> 0:42:57.480 if they can trust me, if I can trust them, 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:02.279 and then together we work on something that is meaningful. 0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:06.440 And then you know, these clubs are going to invest 0:43:06.480 --> 0:43:09.600 their time and money right to try to get results 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:12.480 that are exceptional I'm giving part of my life to this, 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:16.520 so I've got to produce something really, really great because 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:18.279 you know, in the end, look, we all are going 0:43:18.320 --> 0:43:21.840 to get paid, but the money is not The important 0:43:21.880 --> 0:43:25.880 part is the results. It's the weight of our work 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:30.800 behind us. And so you know, I promise my wife, 0:43:30.880 --> 0:43:33.359 my family, myself that I'm not going to take too 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:37.160 much work because in the end, I'm not measuring how 0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:39.920 much work I'm doing. So it goes back to my 0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:43.640 mentor when I went to Chicago. I'm trying to do 0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:47.520 enduring work. I'm not trying to do more work. And 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:51.080 you know, you know my gauge is great, and I 0:43:51.200 --> 0:43:53.480 just want to be part of great. 0:43:53.960 --> 0:43:57.400 So do you get a lot of time to play? 0:43:57.400 --> 0:44:01.480 Ever? You know I don't. And you know that's the 0:44:02.040 --> 0:44:05.680 So any of your listeners that say, oh, I'd love 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:08.840 to be a golf architect, you can be a golf architect. 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:12.759 You just can't play because if you have time to 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:15.279 play and work on your game, you're not working on 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:20.160 your clients, and your clients are paying you so and 0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:25.120 you're trying to establish a reputation not by playing but 0:44:25.360 --> 0:44:29.520 by your work. So you know, I love the game 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:32.040 of golf. I think it's fantastic. I just don't have 0:44:32.120 --> 0:44:36.440 the time to beat balls and to maintain a swing 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:42.400 that you know is notable. So when we lived in Kentucky, 0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:44.760 I built a nine hole golf course on our farm 0:44:45.800 --> 0:44:48.520 and it was a circa nineteen hundred golf course. So 0:44:48.600 --> 0:44:51.800 you actually, you know, you would play with gut to 0:44:51.880 --> 0:44:54.760 perch of balls and you would play it with smooth 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:59.279 face irons and long nose and it was so fantastic. 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:03.319 And and I could go outside our barn and I 0:45:03.360 --> 0:45:06.279 could play it in forty five minute swing, and I 0:45:06.280 --> 0:45:08.399 could you know, I could also play with big arm 0:45:08.520 --> 0:45:11.239 you know, our big time clubs now. But you know 0:45:11.280 --> 0:45:12.919 I could get back to the game, and I could 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.360 do that in a quick thing. You know, all of 0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:19.400 us are struggling and fighting for time, and that's the 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:23.240 whole thing is. You know, we have all this technology, 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.640 you know, and all this technology is great, but all 0:45:25.680 --> 0:45:29.319 of us are starved for time. And so you know, 0:45:29.440 --> 0:45:32.120 I'm the same way. And what what I'm giving up 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:37.200 is playing. And then maybe in ten years, you know, 0:45:37.560 --> 0:45:39.719 I get the opportunity to go back and return to 0:45:39.800 --> 0:45:43.239 playing the game. But right now, you know, I'm focused on, 0:45:43.760 --> 0:45:46.879 you know, trying to do great work, so I don't 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:48.160 really get a chance to play much. 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:48.920 Yeah. 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:52.040 I mean I think that technology sucks the time to 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.400 make it like so much easier to do so much stuff, 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:56.080 but it just takes away the time. 0:45:57.400 --> 0:45:58.480 Yeah. 0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:02.880 So, uh, Josh Bill's asked this question, and I'm going 0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:06.480 to just adapt it a little bit. But what is 0:46:06.520 --> 0:46:08.880 the one course that you'd love to work on? And 0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:11.760 we're going to say that doesn't have a consulting architect 0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:13.640 and we're going to make it, you know, say a 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:17.560 unique golf course that you've seen or stumbled across that 0:46:17.640 --> 0:46:20.239 doesn't have you know, doesn't have a consulting architect, and 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:22.880 has the budget to let you do what you want. 0:46:23.160 --> 0:46:24.120 Which one would it be? 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:31.239 Oh my gosh? I mean look, okay, so every one 0:46:31.280 --> 0:46:34.719 of your listeners either likes long you know, like if 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:36.440 I said to you, what kind of par four do 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:39.399 you like? Some of your listeners and you may say, 0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:41.719 I want a power part four where I can hit 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:43.960 this shot or have to hit that shot and so on. Okay, 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:52.080 I tend to go towards quirky, unique, charming kind of places, 0:46:52.520 --> 0:46:57.160 maybe under the radar kind of places. So I like 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:01.480 things that are kind of lost gem and I like 0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:04.759 things that are just a little off if you will, 0:47:05.280 --> 0:47:08.239 you know, like if you if you look at a 0:47:08.280 --> 0:47:11.680 mantle of your you know, above your fireplace, some people 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:15.960 will have two of something or it's perfectly balanced. I'm 0:47:16.040 --> 0:47:19.360 more of an offset person, So I want something that's 0:47:19.560 --> 0:47:24.200 just a little a little tattered, a little worn, that 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:28.239 hasn't been messed up too much. So you know, like, 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:34.360 for instance, there is this charming place called Myopia Hunt. Okay, 0:47:35.120 --> 0:47:39.399 I would love to touch that place and not touch 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:43.600 it hard, but just to be exposed to something like that. 0:47:44.360 --> 0:47:46.880 I mean, I just love it. I just love the name, 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:51.360 I love its quirkiness. But if I could work on anything, 0:47:52.120 --> 0:47:55.319 I would want to go to Swinley's Forest, the par 0:47:55.480 --> 0:47:59.160 sixty nine golf course that Harry Colt did, and just 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:02.640 play in the bunkers and just I mean, you can't 0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:06.040 improve that golf course, because the golf course is incredible, 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:10.240 but you could learn, you could play, you could study, 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:14.040 and you know, you could be within something that's really 0:48:14.280 --> 0:48:17.800 quirky and great. And you know that's where I would 0:48:18.040 --> 0:48:22.319 probably migrate towards. You know, it's just those really you know, 0:48:22.760 --> 0:48:24.280 charming throwback clubs. 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:27.680 There's a lot of those in the Northeast. 0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:32.400 Yes, And then I imagine it plays perfectly into Alistair 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:36.600 Philip's question, what's your top three in the UK? 0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.240 And I assume Swinley would be in there. 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:43.839 It has to be. And you know, I mean, I 0:48:43.960 --> 0:48:47.719 love golf in the UK. And when I would, you know, 0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:50.560 play a lot. What I ended up doing every year 0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:53.560 is I would do all my work in the year 0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:57.640 and as sort as I finished my work, I would 0:48:57.719 --> 0:49:00.000 take two weeks off and I would go to Scotland, 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:02.160 in Ireland or England and I would play for two 0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:04.640 weeks and I played forty five fifty four holes today 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:08.600 and immerse myself into the game and then I would 0:49:08.600 --> 0:49:11.759 come back rejuvenated to do it again. And I just 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:15.160 love that. And so, you know, I love golf in 0:49:15.200 --> 0:49:18.480 the UK and then Scotland and Ireland because you know, 0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:22.359 it's it's the game in the purest sense. Okay. But 0:49:22.400 --> 0:49:26.840 in terms of architecture, I like quirky, so you know 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:31.359 in England, you know, I think I love cults work, 0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:35.880 and so I love Sunningdale. I love you know, Swinley forests. 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.440 I just think they're really, really exceptional and so I 0:49:39.520 --> 0:49:43.280 love those two golf courses especially, but if I picked 0:49:43.320 --> 0:49:46.239 one in England, it would probably be that. You know, 0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:50.200 I love golf in Scotland, Saint Andrew's, you know, I 0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:52.879 think it's fantastic, But I love the charm of North 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:57.760 Berwick and it's just obscure and funky and a little 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:01.080 different and charming in its own way. And it's rough. 0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:03.440 It's kind of almost as a feel of the municipal 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:06.719 golf course because it is so rough, you know, and 0:50:06.760 --> 0:50:09.799 I like that. And then and you know, I just 0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:14.640 you know, golf in Ireland. I mean, shoot, Port Rush 0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:20.880 is incredible. Uh, you know, Port Rush is great. You know. 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:24.600 I I tend to kind of go towards that because 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.080 I just think it's really really neat. But Port Marnock 0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:30.319 is neat, so you know. But if I could choose 0:50:30.360 --> 0:50:32.800 three golf courses, I would probably just do all Harry 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:36.239 Colt courses, so and just go go all three. 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:40.960 So Harry Cole, he's he doesn't get talked about in 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:43.640 the US because you know, Allison did the most most 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:46.719 of the work here, what you know, knowing both so well, 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:50.680 what was the difference between you know, how Alison built courses. 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:52.680 And how cold is well? 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:56.880 I think, what's yeah? You know, so Colt's work is 0:50:56.880 --> 0:50:59.920 interesting and you know, so your listener would you know, 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:02.280 he asked, well, what are the three in the UK? 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:05.000 And I would migrate, you know, if I could choose, 0:51:05.000 --> 0:51:07.200 if I had to choose all three, I would say Colt. 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:10.480 I would say England and be good with that, and 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:14.440 probably all the courses in Surrey, England would probably be 0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:18.120 my choice as opposed to even Scotland or Ireland. Okay, 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:22.799 but now Colt and Allison, so Colt, Okay, this is 0:51:23.080 --> 0:51:26.960 here's the difference between you know, Harry Colt. So, when 0:51:27.120 --> 0:51:32.200 asked about his best golf course, Harry Colt says, you know, 0:51:33.320 --> 0:51:38.640 Swinley Forest is my least bad golf course. Okay. Now, 0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:43.080 Swinley Forest is a really great golf course. But it 0:51:43.200 --> 0:51:47.280 is so understated, it's so off the radar, it's so charming. 0:51:48.040 --> 0:51:50.760 It's just what golf should be, which is a great walk. 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:55.200 And I think that's really good. So I tend to 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:58.600 think that Harry Colt's work is softer placed in terms 0:51:58.600 --> 0:52:01.880 of bunkering. There's more artistry in the bunkering. 0:52:02.280 --> 0:52:02.680 And. 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:08.080 You know, it's just a bit more subtle. Okay, Now, 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:13.360 Alison when he comes over here, Alison is a tremendous talent. 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:16.560 I mean, you know, Colt was involved at Pine Valley. 0:52:16.760 --> 0:52:20.680 Alison was also involved at Pine Valley, and to make 0:52:20.719 --> 0:52:25.120 Pine Valley so special at Alison's work when he you know, 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:29.680 so he works for Colt, but Colt has his own philosophy. 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:35.240 Colt mentors Alison. Alison comes over here in the twenties. 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:38.279 All of the work that is Cold and Alison, for 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:42.279 the most part, is done by Alison. Alison creates teas 0:52:42.320 --> 0:52:48.280 that are low to the ground. His green pads are big, giant, strong, 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:52.880 proud greens, and the bunkers are boldly cut underneath. So 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:58.480 there's less subtle tea in Alison's work, but it's bigger 0:52:58.560 --> 0:53:03.160 landforms and you know, it's more impactful. So Colt was 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:08.880 more subtle, Alison was bolder in his presentation of golf 0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:14.680 scale and otherwise. So there's the difference right there. You know. Basically, 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:16.160 you know, I grew. 0:53:16.000 --> 0:53:19.840 Up working at Nola Club and Alison of course in 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:22.880 Chicago that I know you you worked on after my 0:53:23.000 --> 0:53:26.000 time of working there, and uh you Nail, I mean 0:53:26.040 --> 0:53:30.720 that's it's really bold with a big bunkering and raised 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:35.000 up greens and it's it's exactly how you described it. 0:53:36.120 --> 0:53:40.160 Yeah, yeah, and it makes and it and it makes 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.799 sense because if you're Alison, right, think about this. If 0:53:44.080 --> 0:53:47.919 if you're Alison and your mentor is cult and you're 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:51.360 working for Colt, you know, you're not going to create 0:53:51.520 --> 0:53:54.400 cult work. You're going to create work that is your own. 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:58.400 And and so he got away from that and that 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:01.960 became something really important to him, you know, when he 0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:05.359 just perfected it through the twenties and then you know, 0:54:05.440 --> 0:54:08.160 when the depression hits, he goes to Japan and he 0:54:08.239 --> 0:54:11.280 creates some great golf courses in the thirties in Japan, 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.319 and and then and later in his years he goes 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:18.160 to Australia in the forties and you know, produces some 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:19.880 really great golf courses in Australia. 0:54:20.360 --> 0:54:20.560 Yeah. 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:26.000 He might be the most worldwide traveled man. 0:54:26.040 --> 0:54:26.480 I agreed. 0:54:27.040 --> 0:54:33.400 Yeah, it's surprisingly it's something changed obviously after the Golden 0:54:33.440 --> 0:54:37.840 Age because Colet and Alison, you know, they were longtime partners. 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:40.080 They had Mackenzie and they all got their names on 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:42.960 the firm. You know, Morrison then comes in gets his 0:54:43.040 --> 0:54:47.440 name on the firm. But now you see firms and 0:54:48.320 --> 0:54:51.880 you know you'll have you know, say it's a Jones firm. 0:54:52.320 --> 0:54:55.280 They have these project architects that don't get their names 0:54:55.320 --> 0:54:58.239 on the firm, but do you know the design work, 0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:00.040 and it's kind of it. 0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:01.640 It's weird how that shifted. 0:55:03.440 --> 0:55:07.520 It is interesting, isn't it? And you know, so so 0:55:07.600 --> 0:55:10.080 what you had right there is like, for instance, you 0:55:10.200 --> 0:55:15.120 had Colt, Alison, Morrison and Mackenzie and really, what Colt 0:55:15.160 --> 0:55:18.440 did you think about this when they had that partnership. 0:55:19.160 --> 0:55:22.560 Colt is doing the work in England, Alison is doing 0:55:22.600 --> 0:55:26.080 the work in eastern US and in the Midwest. Mackenzie 0:55:26.200 --> 0:55:29.879 was doing the work out west. So they all had 0:55:29.960 --> 0:55:35.120 regions or territories, which is really really you know, charming, 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:39.720 you know, But suddenly you know, here in the States 0:55:39.760 --> 0:55:45.600 and US everything you know, we want, we want the notoriety. 0:55:46.080 --> 0:55:48.640 And so what has happened is the game of golf. Well, look, 0:55:48.719 --> 0:55:51.640 Tilling has you know you think about Tilling has Tilling 0:55:51.640 --> 0:55:54.400 has had his guys, the Tilling has got the credit. 0:55:54.960 --> 0:55:58.400 Ross had his guys and Ross got the credit. So 0:55:59.320 --> 0:56:05.440 there is a more. Oh, I would probably say the 0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:08.919 English are a softer breed, aren't they in terms of 0:56:09.400 --> 0:56:13.280 you know, being able to give credit and a little 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.399 bit more accepting of those kind of things. But here 0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:19.920 in the States with tillinghas Ross and Jones and everybody else, 0:56:20.360 --> 0:56:24.600 you know, we tend to, you know, the the name 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:27.799 you know gets the recognition. Just like when I worked 0:56:27.800 --> 0:56:31.239 for Art Hills. You no, my job was to make 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:34.640 Art look the best he could make and be. It 0:56:34.680 --> 0:56:37.160 wasn't about me. It was about making sure that who 0:56:37.200 --> 0:56:41.520 I worked for was the star. And I was you know, 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:44.879 I'm in the line, on the line. He's a quarterback 0:56:45.280 --> 0:56:48.319 and it's okay. You know, you have to invest and 0:56:48.320 --> 0:56:50.200 put your time in there. But you know, it is 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:54.520 certainly different than you know Colet, Alison, Mackenzie and Morrison. 0:56:54.960 --> 0:56:57.040 I wonder if that work, if you did that today, 0:56:57.400 --> 0:57:00.440 if you you know, you put together you know guys 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:03.480 and said we're a firm that we cover all, you know, 0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:07.040 any interesting concepts. 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:09.759 You know, I'd love that. I mean, truthfully, I think 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.239 it'd be fantastic. I think what you have to have 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:17.200 is the key on that whole thing is the guy 0:57:17.240 --> 0:57:21.200 at the first name, Colt. Okay, so it goes back 0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:25.120 to Colt, right, Colt said at Swinley Forest it is 0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:27.360 my least bad golf course. 0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:28.520 Yeah. 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:34.080 So Colt was a humble man, a quiet man, a 0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:39.280 man of great subtlety and charm, and he didn't have 0:57:39.360 --> 0:57:44.120 a really big ego. So you know, but if you 0:57:44.200 --> 0:57:45.960 look at you know, some of the other you know, 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:48.320 maybe that just doesn't happen. So I think it started 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.080 with cult personally, like right now in my career, I 0:57:52.080 --> 0:57:55.840 would love to do that because I hope that I'm 0:57:55.840 --> 0:58:00.680 becoming a better person, and you know, I would love, 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:03.800 you know, to do something like that. So Andy, you've 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:05.480 got some guys with some great talent. 0:58:05.640 --> 0:58:08.680 I'd love to do it, all right, I'll uh, I'll 0:58:08.720 --> 0:58:11.360 send them your way. I think law firms do it. 0:58:11.680 --> 0:58:16.080 You know, it makes a lot of sense. We got 0:58:16.120 --> 0:58:18.120 a couple of other really good questions that I want 0:58:18.160 --> 0:58:20.040 to get to. I don't want you. You're a busy man. 0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:25.720 So Jeff Shackelford wants to know you're the best piece 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:32.320 of history slash memory Omphelia you've found on your hunts. 0:58:33.120 --> 0:58:37.720 Well, all right, so you know many of your listeners 0:58:37.720 --> 0:58:41.640 and all this stuff they don't know. You know, maybe 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:44.280 a lot about me and and probably that's a good thing. 0:58:44.400 --> 0:58:47.680 But Okay, so I'm a golf course architect, and but 0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:50.640 I've always liked antiques and collectibles and things like this. 0:58:50.680 --> 0:58:52.800 But but I love the game of golf obviously too. 0:58:52.920 --> 0:58:58.720 So when in two thousand and you know, as I 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:02.840 was going through my career, I started trying, you know, 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:07.720 somebody introduced me to golf architecture books, and I'm going, what, 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:11.840 there's golf architecture books. And then I start trying to 0:59:11.880 --> 0:59:14.680 buy golf architecture books. And then it starts going on 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:18.120 this exploration. And then I started trying to find golf 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:20.960 balls and old golf balls, and golf clubs and old 0:59:21.000 --> 0:59:24.200 golf clubs, and so you put all this stuff together, 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:28.280 and I started buying this or that or finding this 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:32.640 or that. Well I happened. What I thought was one 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:37.640 of the coolest things I found and got was Harry 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:44.840 Colet's personal scrap book. And Harry Colet was so proud 0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:48.880 of Country Club at Detroit and when it held the 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:51.920 US Amateur I think in nineteen fifteen or nineteen fourteen 0:59:52.000 --> 0:59:57.960 or fifteen. He kept a scrap book of everything that 0:59:58.120 --> 1:00:02.360 happened on his first voice to the United States, and 1:00:02.480 --> 1:00:05.440 he brought his wife and it has his tickets and 1:00:05.520 --> 1:00:08.040 it had all of his information on what he ate 1:00:08.560 --> 1:00:12.520 and where he stayed and what he thought and pictures 1:00:12.560 --> 1:00:15.280 and everything else. And I found that scrap book and 1:00:15.320 --> 1:00:17.560 I had that scrap book for a number of years 1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:20.880 and it was just so wonderful because it was just 1:00:21.360 --> 1:00:25.280 so insightful to Harry Colt. So I have, you know, 1:00:25.400 --> 1:00:29.560 the first piece of letterhead that was Colt, Alison, Morrison 1:00:29.600 --> 1:00:32.680 and Mackenzie and it was all part of that scrap book, 1:00:33.000 --> 1:00:35.760 and I just thought it was just so fantastic to have. 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:38.360 And then the other thing that I found, which is 1:00:38.400 --> 1:00:43.360 really great is there's this old golf club called the 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:47.440 Royal you know, Thistle Golf Club and it was founded 1:00:47.440 --> 1:00:51.440 in eighteen nineteen. And I got a receipt that they 1:00:51.520 --> 1:00:56.040 paid a greens keeper keeper of the greens for his 1:00:56.200 --> 1:01:00.280 annual salary. And I got that receipt of his is 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:03.520 you know, actual payment for the course of a year, 1:01:04.040 --> 1:01:06.600 you know, while he was keeping the greens at Discle 1:01:06.600 --> 1:01:08.720 Golf Club, which was really incredible. 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:12.720 That's a that'd be a fun thing to just to 1:01:12.880 --> 1:01:15.400 get to thumb through that cult scrap book. 1:01:16.960 --> 1:01:19.320 Oh, it's incredible. And you know, I still have a 1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:22.760 lot of great old golf stuff, and you know, I 1:01:22.800 --> 1:01:24.360 just love it. I love the history of the game, 1:01:24.400 --> 1:01:25.680 and I love the charm of the game. 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:29.560 That's that's why. That's why you love the restoration so much. 1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:32.080 Yeah, that's exactly right. 1:01:32.160 --> 1:01:36.040 Yeah, that's yeah, it's I always liked history class, which 1:01:36.080 --> 1:01:37.920 is I think why I like this stuff. 1:01:37.640 --> 1:01:40.120 So much when I was growing up. 1:01:41.320 --> 1:01:46.680 All right, we'll do one more question here. Pat Craig says, 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:50.520 you're working on Golden Valley up in Minnesota. How does 1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:53.400 it stack up with the other Tillies that you've worked on. 1:01:56.160 --> 1:01:59.960 Well, you know, ironically, ironically, I was at Golden Ball 1:02:00.280 --> 1:02:04.160 on Monday, right, and Golden Valley is really really an 1:02:04.280 --> 1:02:07.280 interesting golf course, and I didn't really know a whole 1:02:07.360 --> 1:02:10.400 lot about it, and then I get the opportunity and 1:02:10.440 --> 1:02:13.440 the privilege to go meet with them and and and 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:17.280 what's interesting about it is that it's a typical because 1:02:17.560 --> 1:02:21.280 you know, you have this this you know, Tilling has 1:02:21.400 --> 1:02:25.880 gem consider this Golden Valley, you know, is you know 1:02:25.960 --> 1:02:31.720 in Minneapolis, and uh, Killing has does one golf course 1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:38.280 Rochester in Minnesota. Right, However, Killing has has relatives in 1:02:38.320 --> 1:02:42.760 Minneapolis and Golden Valley convinced Tilling has to go there 1:02:42.800 --> 1:02:45.400 to take a look at this piece of property. And 1:02:45.480 --> 1:02:47.480 the only reason that Tilly does it, of course, is 1:02:47.480 --> 1:02:50.600 he has family there, which is fantastic because now he 1:02:50.640 --> 1:02:55.680 gets to see his family. So Tilly routes masterfully an 1:02:55.680 --> 1:03:01.680 incredible routing on this difficult piece property. Right, so it 1:03:01.760 --> 1:03:06.800 has it has perimeter roads all around it. It has 1:03:06.840 --> 1:03:10.520 an interior perimeter road and a railroad track running through it. 1:03:11.120 --> 1:03:15.200 And Bendalo does a golf course originally in nineteen fourteen 1:03:15.240 --> 1:03:18.920 or nineteen sixteen. There Chilly comes there in nineteen twenty 1:03:18.960 --> 1:03:23.320 six re routes it, expands it and does eighteen holes, 1:03:23.600 --> 1:03:28.760 and he creates an incredible routing on this awkward, disjointed 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:33.800 piece of property. And then over time, over sixty seven years, 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:38.760 like many great wonderful old golf courses, trees get planted, 1:03:38.960 --> 1:03:42.240 architects come in. You know, people do more things than 1:03:42.280 --> 1:03:44.400 they should and not enough of what they should do, 1:03:44.920 --> 1:03:48.920 and so Golden Valley sits like this. And so initially 1:03:48.960 --> 1:03:51.920 when I go to Golden Valley, I I come in 1:03:52.040 --> 1:03:55.840 the night before and I just drive around, not the 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:59.120 golf course, but around the perimeter, and the night before, 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:04.000 all I'm seeing is all those roads and all the issues, 1:04:04.680 --> 1:04:07.040 and then I, you know, I go to the hotel 1:04:07.160 --> 1:04:10.240 room and I just sleep on it. The next morning, 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:12.680 I walk into the golf course and I start walking it, 1:04:13.280 --> 1:04:16.520 and then and then I start seeing what Tilly did, 1:04:17.320 --> 1:04:20.000 and I am just blown away by how good it 1:04:20.040 --> 1:04:23.440 can be. And so I just look at it, and 1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:27.400 I suddenly forgot about all the other external things and 1:04:27.440 --> 1:04:32.360 I just focused on what Chilly did. And it's really good. 1:04:32.520 --> 1:04:35.040 And now, of course I can see it, and now 1:04:35.080 --> 1:04:38.360 we're presenting it to the you know, to the to 1:04:38.400 --> 1:04:41.200 the board and the committee first before we present it 1:04:41.240 --> 1:04:44.880 to the membership. But I am so excited about that. 1:04:45.600 --> 1:04:48.640 And and what was really good about it is that 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:52.640 usually I just create a plan, a master plan, to 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:55.080 take them to where they want to go. But what 1:04:55.160 --> 1:04:57.160 I did is I took a look at Tilly's old 1:04:57.280 --> 1:05:00.280 plan and I took I was so excited out to 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:03.200 Tilly and what he did on it and the Tilly plan, 1:05:03.680 --> 1:05:06.760 but I took our master plan and I then went 1:05:06.880 --> 1:05:10.760 back and created what Tilly created. And so I've got 1:05:10.800 --> 1:05:13.840 this really great Tilly plan for Golden Valley, which is 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:17.200 what he did plus what we're going to do, and 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:21.880 we have this incredible opportunity there. I'm really excited about it. 1:05:21.960 --> 1:05:26.760 They are so nice there and so trusting, and you know, 1:05:27.080 --> 1:05:29.240 I'm really thankful to be there. So it's going to 1:05:29.280 --> 1:05:30.480 be pretty exciting to do it. 1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:32.720 Yeah, it's Minnesota. 1:05:32.800 --> 1:05:37.440 People are just so nice and it's an interesting golf 1:05:37.480 --> 1:05:40.560 town because they had Ross do work there. 1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:42.920 They had Rainer up there, they had. 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:46.640 Tilly, they had William Watson, like they had all these 1:05:46.760 --> 1:05:51.400 great architects in the doing, you know, work at various courses. 1:05:51.640 --> 1:05:56.600 It's got a ton of variety. 1:05:54.600 --> 1:05:57.600 It really does. And you are so right, Andy, However, 1:05:57.720 --> 1:05:59.680 and this is what I was saying the Golden Valley 1:06:00.200 --> 1:06:03.040 that yes, there are all these notable architects that have 1:06:03.080 --> 1:06:08.080 done some really really good golf courses there. However, if 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:11.960 you look at the pedigree of courses that Tilly's done, right, 1:06:12.720 --> 1:06:15.720 I mean you can, Okay, Ross is really talented. Clearly 1:06:15.840 --> 1:06:19.040 Rainers really talented. Look at their work. But look at 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:22.840 the list of courses that have endoored that are Tilly. 1:06:24.400 --> 1:06:27.640 It's okay. And now you look at gold it is unbelievable. 1:06:27.640 --> 1:06:30.080 So now you look at and that's the thing that's 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.360 the genius and the charm of Tilly. So now you 1:06:33.400 --> 1:06:36.040 look at you look at Golden Valley and look what 1:06:36.160 --> 1:06:40.200 they have ready to be polished and reset. It's incredible. 1:06:40.840 --> 1:06:44.920 I would add it's remarkable to look at the entire 1:06:45.040 --> 1:06:49.360 Philly School of Architecture because Flynn is a similar where 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:51.280 he had. You know, he has so many courses that 1:06:51.360 --> 1:06:55.360 have endured the test of time. George Thomas, you know, 1:06:55.440 --> 1:06:58.040 with the courses he did on in la you know, 1:06:58.160 --> 1:07:02.880 obviously Marion Is and then Oakland, but those guys that 1:07:03.200 --> 1:07:06.880 did all that collaborative work in Philadelphia, all of them 1:07:06.960 --> 1:07:10.440 have you know, so many great golf courses still today. 1:07:11.880 --> 1:07:14.120 And you know, and isn't isn't that the truth? And 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:17.680 that's a great observation. And I wish I could say, now, look, 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:21.919 I'm from Philadelphia. Now I'm from the wrong side of Philadelphia. 1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:25.120 I'm from South Philly, and all those other golf courses 1:07:25.120 --> 1:07:28.960 are in the Posh neighborhood. But you know, that is 1:07:29.080 --> 1:07:31.920 one thing that when I got the opportunity to go 1:07:31.920 --> 1:07:35.920 to Philly Cricket, I'm going, my gosh, I'm from South Philly. 1:07:36.000 --> 1:07:38.760 I'm going to go to big time Philly now and 1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:41.400 I get a chance to work on tilling Haass golf course. 1:07:42.080 --> 1:07:46.480 I so want to honor Philadelphia architecture. And you know, 1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:50.840 George Thomas was a member at Philly Cricket with Tilling half. 1:07:51.000 --> 1:07:53.600 So that's why I was just so excited to be 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:56.800 given that opportunity. And I just wanted to make sure 1:07:56.840 --> 1:08:01.200 that what I did was honoring to Tilly Philadelphia School 1:08:01.200 --> 1:08:04.440 of Architecture. And you know where I'm from. 1:08:04.840 --> 1:08:07.440 That's that's really cool. It's say, a getting to do 1:08:07.520 --> 1:08:11.760 stuff in your hometown is awesome. It's all right, we 1:08:11.840 --> 1:08:15.800 do this overrated underrated segments. It's quick, it's you know, 1:08:16.000 --> 1:08:19.160 I mean, give you a couple topics and you tell 1:08:19.200 --> 1:08:21.400 me if it's overrated or underrated. 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:23.200 All right, no proper. 1:08:22.960 --> 1:08:25.439 War and if I hey, hey, and if I don't 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:28.000 want to hurt anybody's feelings, I'll just say I don't 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:28.599 want to comment. 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:32.960 I mean, we're we don't usually allow that. 1:08:33.280 --> 1:08:37.000 You know, we've allowed We've allowed one or two properly 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:38.680 rated in the history. 1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:40.120 Of overrated underrated. 1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:46.799 Okay, the use of grass hollows from the one bearded golfer. 1:08:48.280 --> 1:08:53.040 Oh, I hate them. I think there I just don't 1:08:53.080 --> 1:08:56.360 even see the charm in them, you know, no, I 1:08:56.640 --> 1:09:02.200 don't see it. Overrated, Yeah, very very overrated. 1:09:02.720 --> 1:09:06.599 El Dinarino says us opens at modern venues. 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:13.800 That's just a clueless thing. I think that's so overrated. 1:09:14.040 --> 1:09:18.200 And my gosh, look at look at the results last 1:09:18.200 --> 1:09:18.760 two or three. 1:09:20.760 --> 1:09:24.400 We're on the same pace here. Green to Tea like 1:09:24.520 --> 1:09:27.280 connections from Ben Hogan camp. 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:33.160 Okay, I love them. Okay, So I think I think 1:09:33.360 --> 1:09:36.120 what's great about that is, look, if you have a 1:09:36.200 --> 1:09:39.519 close Green to Tea connection, I mean green fir t 1:09:39.720 --> 1:09:43.880 is really there, instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I 1:09:43.920 --> 1:09:46.720 love to connect it so that I'm showing that you're 1:09:46.720 --> 1:09:49.519 going from one room right into the next room. I 1:09:49.560 --> 1:09:51.920 think it's really really good. Now, you don't want to 1:09:51.920 --> 1:09:54.200 do it where it's forced or there's too much room, 1:09:54.240 --> 1:09:57.519 But if it's tight close I connect. 1:09:58.000 --> 1:10:00.960 Gotta do it, and you gotta have it consistent. You 1:10:01.000 --> 1:10:02.320 can't just do it once right. 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:06.679 Well Yeah, I mean, okay, so Andy, you saw marine. 1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:10.280 How cool is those? How cool are those Green Keey connections? 1:10:10.560 --> 1:10:13.840 They're amazing and anybody can see it. I've I've got 1:10:13.840 --> 1:10:16.760 a review. I got like hundreds of photos in that thing. 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:21.840 So that course, I'll tell you what though, we had 1:10:21.840 --> 1:10:24.280 to walk thirty six in that USAM qualifier. 1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:26.280 Huh that was a bear. 1:10:29.720 --> 1:10:37.080 Well you know, yeah, yeah, well you know. And I 1:10:37.120 --> 1:10:40.520 did a couple of green tea connections at Philly Cricket. 1:10:41.040 --> 1:10:44.320 In truth, I'm on a mission where I'm trying to 1:10:44.400 --> 1:10:48.479 return golf to close green tea relationships. So like when 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:51.400 I played Saint Andrews, you know, you go from one 1:10:51.439 --> 1:10:54.080 green right to two t I love that where you're 1:10:54.120 --> 1:10:58.679 in the game, and that's where I think the game 1:10:59.000 --> 1:11:01.559 is in terms of charm. If you can get right 1:11:01.600 --> 1:11:03.840 off the green, go right onto the tee and go, 1:11:04.760 --> 1:11:08.719 I think that's it. It promotes walking too, it does, 1:11:08.840 --> 1:11:11.240 and that's what I'm trying to do. And and I 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:14.960 just want to reintroduce that. So at Golden Valley we're 1:11:14.960 --> 1:11:18.759 going to introduce it. And Moraine clearly, we did Philly Cricket, 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:23.479 we did Baltimore. So you know, Marine passionate about that. 1:11:23.760 --> 1:11:27.479 Speaking of major or like Major Champion, Marine needs like 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:31.519 a Senior Open because that place is unreal and it's 1:11:31.560 --> 1:11:32.880 such a good test. 1:11:34.160 --> 1:11:37.200 I agree, Yeah, I absolutely agree, and it could hold it. 1:11:37.520 --> 1:11:41.640 Yeah, it's there are usam it rained, So it was 1:11:41.680 --> 1:11:45.719 a little soft and only one one score, one eighteen 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:47.440 hole score was under part. 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:52.519 Yeah, and I mean and and by the way, that 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:54.880 club didn't say to me, Keith, we need to get 1:11:54.880 --> 1:11:58.760 more yardage. But when I never really thought about trying 1:11:58.800 --> 1:12:00.960 to pull it back further because they just didn't need 1:12:00.960 --> 1:12:03.800 to do it. But it's it's a lot of golf, 1:12:03.840 --> 1:12:06.600 and it's a great golf course and a great membership 1:12:06.600 --> 1:12:07.320 and great people. 1:12:07.600 --> 1:12:09.400 Yeah, they were really nice there. 1:12:09.520 --> 1:12:11.479 If you know, if they had, if they tried to 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:13.920 do a pro event, they'd have to move Tea's on 1:12:14.520 --> 1:12:19.840 nine and seventeen back because like Dustin Johnson could just 1:12:19.880 --> 1:12:24.880 fly those those ridges, those agreed, Those are great little 1:12:24.920 --> 1:12:28.360 subtle design things that they did there, or you did, 1:12:28.479 --> 1:12:29.559 I don't know who did. 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:32.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually I actually did it. 1:12:33.120 --> 1:12:36.519 Yeah, those are like those ridges that just they just 1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:37.599 killed the long him. 1:12:38.760 --> 1:12:40.719 And I hit him right into it, they'd go nowhere. 1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:43.600 It's like, you know, yeah, and that's you know, and 1:12:43.680 --> 1:12:46.519 I learned that years ago, which is if I can 1:12:46.560 --> 1:12:50.200 get you know, a strong ball to hit into the upslope, 1:12:51.160 --> 1:12:53.160 you know, and take the heat off the ball, that's 1:12:53.240 --> 1:12:56.240 key and you know, I finally learned that. 1:12:56.520 --> 1:12:58.360 So yeah, I thought it. 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:00.920 Was one of the better subtle things that I saw 1:13:00.960 --> 1:13:05.559 on a course this year. So I'm a fan. Last 1:13:05.960 --> 1:13:11.720 one from Joseph rolling the ball back underrated, overrated, This is. 1:13:11.680 --> 1:13:16.760 Oh my gosh, you know, you know, oh, isn't it? 1:13:16.800 --> 1:13:20.240 Isn't it terrible? Where our game is going? Where you know, 1:13:20.720 --> 1:13:24.440 people are now talking about eight thousand yard golf courses 1:13:24.840 --> 1:13:28.599 just so that the pros you know, can hit, you know, 1:13:28.800 --> 1:13:31.599 to force them to hit five irons or three irons 1:13:31.640 --> 1:13:34.120 into holes. So you know, the pros play a different 1:13:34.120 --> 1:13:37.439 game than we do, and you're going to roll the 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:40.160 ball back. It's impossible, you know, for our game to 1:13:40.200 --> 1:13:41.280 continue the way it is. 1:13:41.760 --> 1:13:45.320 It's just it's I hit it pretty far. I'm not 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:49.360 like Dustin Johnson, but I was like I played our 1:13:49.360 --> 1:13:51.280 stadium this year and I was like kind of like 1:13:51.400 --> 1:13:54.160 sickend because of how many wedges I hit. And it's 1:13:54.200 --> 1:13:56.599 just like I I didn't have to h do anything 1:13:56.680 --> 1:14:00.320 but hit driver wedge and it's like that's not off. 1:14:01.880 --> 1:14:05.559 It isn't. And yeah it's still on darts, it's it's 1:14:06.240 --> 1:14:07.559 but we'll. 1:14:07.360 --> 1:14:08.280 See what happens. 1:14:08.760 --> 1:14:13.080 So hopefully we'll just start our own revolution, you know, 1:14:13.240 --> 1:14:14.480 like your backyard. 1:14:14.160 --> 1:14:17.600 Nine hole cours. Yeah, I know, I wish it was 1:14:17.600 --> 1:14:20.040 that simple. The problem is there's so much money in 1:14:20.080 --> 1:14:23.760 the game, and you know what's happening is that everybody's 1:14:23.800 --> 1:14:27.439 trying to do what's right for everybody and at the 1:14:27.479 --> 1:14:29.639 expense of our game. 1:14:30.080 --> 1:14:34.519 M Yeah, I agree with that. 1:14:34.840 --> 1:14:38.400 You know, they they still sell balls, but yeah, it 1:14:38.439 --> 1:14:42.120 wouldn't be you know, all the research and development money 1:14:42.160 --> 1:14:45.400 that they already poured into next year's ball would be gone. 1:14:45.680 --> 1:14:48.519 And that's the thing I think they are mad about. 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:51.160 But they'd be up in arms about. 1:14:51.200 --> 1:14:55.120 So with that note, you know, on a getting off 1:14:55.160 --> 1:14:58.080 on a somber note, which you know is only fitting 1:14:58.280 --> 1:15:00.000 because you're you've been so positive. 1:15:01.320 --> 1:15:04.519 That's the end. So thanks for coming on. 1:15:05.840 --> 1:15:08.760 Well Andy, thank you so much for giving me the 1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:11.320 opportunity to talk with you and a little bit about 1:15:11.360 --> 1:15:14.479 my work. And I'm so thankful that you would, you know, 1:15:15.160 --> 1:15:16.720 you know, want to talk with me and allow me 1:15:16.760 --> 1:15:18.519 to you know, just talk about what I do. 1:15:18.880 --> 1:15:22.240 Hey, you always have an open invite, so you know, 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:24.920 if you want to, you guys, something to get off 1:15:24.920 --> 1:15:27.000 your chest, send me an email. 1:15:27.280 --> 1:15:28.080 We'll get your back on. 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:34.680 Well, thank you again for you know, paying attention to 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:36.960 some of the work that I'm doing. And you know, 1:15:37.000 --> 1:15:39.519 I'm really excited about the work I'm doing right now 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:42.280 and what I've got going on for next year and 1:15:42.320 --> 1:15:45.080 the year after, and I've got three or four years 1:15:45.160 --> 1:15:48.040 work out ahead of me, and I'm really quite excited 1:15:48.040 --> 1:15:50.519 about it. So thank you, and and I hope to 1:15:50.560 --> 1:15:51.880 have the pleasure of meeting you. 1:15:52.000 --> 1:15:53.720 Yeah, for sure, let me know when you're going to 1:15:53.760 --> 1:15:57.120 be up in Minnesota. It's not that far from here. 1:15:58.479 --> 1:16:00.720 Sounds perfect. I love it. I'd love to host you 1:16:00.760 --> 1:16:04.519 and show you how special Golden Valley's going to be awesome. 1:16:04.720 --> 1:16:07.400 Well, we'll talk soon and have a have a good 1:16:07.680 --> 1:16:08.439 holiday season.