Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in.
Speaker 2: A brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday,
Speaker 2: Frida Bride Egg Lie.
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the
Speaker 2: Friday Podcast. Today, I welcome on Keith Foster, a golf
Speaker 2: course architect who has done many beautiful restoration of classic
Speaker 2: golf courses across the country and also has built up
Speaker 2: an impressive list of solo designs.
Speaker 1: Keith, welcome up.
Speaker 3: Hey, thanks so much Andy for having me. It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, excited.
Speaker 2: You know talk Golden Age architecture, some of your architecture.
Speaker 2: I grew up playing Shepherd's Crook, one of your design
Speaker 2: your public designs, and it's, as I call it, the Crook.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the best courses in Chicagoland
Speaker 2: that anybody can play. But to kick things off, you know,
Speaker 2: two of your most dramatic restorations that I've seen are
Speaker 2: Philly Cricket Club and Marine Country Club, and each of
Speaker 2: them you've you've taken out quite a few trees, and
Speaker 2: I would I'm curious what you find to be the
Speaker 2: biggest misconception with memberships, committees and just golfers in general
Speaker 2: about trees.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think, I think Andy, what really
Speaker 3: happens on trees is that, you know, every golf course,
Speaker 3: I don't care how old it is or how new
Speaker 3: it is, there comes a time when someone's going to say,
Speaker 3: we could put a tree here, we could put a
Speaker 3: tree there. And older golf courses they fell victim to.
Speaker 3: You know, when RTJ mister Jones was the man, the
Speaker 3: open doctor in the fifties, you know, for US open
Speaker 3: sites and so on, all these trees got planted. And
Speaker 3: then Lady Bird Johnson in the sixties through arbor days
Speaker 3: and so on. So all of these golf courses initially
Speaker 3: started out not heavily treed, and then over time, you know,
Speaker 3: trees get planted here and there. And I think what's
Speaker 3: interesting is most old school golf golf courses tend to
Speaker 3: be wider in scale, because of course you have wider fairways,
Speaker 3: you set bunkers on angles, and the game becomes and
Speaker 3: should be a more strategic one. But then when trees
Speaker 3: get planted in the fifties and they're small, and the
Speaker 3: sixties are small, and all of a sudden, the trees
Speaker 3: start growing, and it's a slow grow, but it starts
Speaker 3: encroaching into the golf And then suddenly the ways start
Speaker 3: moving and shifting away from the trees, and then golf
Speaker 3: fairways start getting narrower. And so ultimately what happens is
Speaker 3: that the golf course, many golf courses, are just skeletons
Speaker 3: of what they used to be in terms of scale
Speaker 3: and impact and strategy, so much so that like a
Speaker 3: golf course like Moraine Wonderful Charming golf course, or Philly
Speaker 3: Cricket for that matter, most charming great old school clubs,
Speaker 3: they change the characteristics of their golf course and they
Speaker 3: become narrow. I call it almost like bowling. Look, golf
Speaker 3: is a strategic game. Bowling, you know you're in a
Speaker 3: narrow lane. And I think dimension is really important in
Speaker 3: the game of golf. And so you know, I don't
Speaker 3: really think you can get great restorations renovation work, and
Speaker 3: I don't think you can return back to something really
Speaker 3: truly epic unless tree removal is part of it. So
Speaker 3: if a club is focusing on greens, bunkers, and tees,
Speaker 3: and they're not really looking at trees. I think they're
Speaker 3: short sighted.
Speaker 2: It seems like, you know, the trees have to come
Speaker 2: down first, because then when you expand the greens, the
Speaker 2: edges make all the more sense with the wider fairways.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's exactly right, and so you know, so
Speaker 3: so often, you know, everyone focuses on green surrounds, bunkers,
Speaker 3: and tees because those are the features, and those are
Speaker 3: the features. But I think the missing component is scale,
Speaker 3: and scale creates great golf. And you know, there was
Speaker 3: this big movement towards twenty six yard wide fairways because
Speaker 3: we all see them at the US Open, and oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, for the tour players, we've got to create
Speaker 3: tight hitting areas. But you know, for the majority of us,
Speaker 3: you know, we need wider areas to play golf. And
Speaker 3: even so, the game is a game of options rather
Speaker 3: than these narrow boundaries. And I think the game of
Speaker 3: golf is wonderfully compelling when it has options, and we
Speaker 3: as golfers, have options so that we can, you know,
Speaker 3: enjoy a more flexible game of golf.
Speaker 2: It is a lot of these courses especially the classic
Speaker 2: golf courses when they hosted these major champions chips. It
Speaker 2: was in the thirties, the forties, the fifties before all
Speaker 2: this tree you know planting happened. So their best self
Speaker 2: was actually when they had the fewest trees.
Speaker 3: Yes, and then of course when in the fifties and
Speaker 3: sixties and seventies and eighties, we see all these national
Speaker 3: championships being held on for the most part, tree line
Speaker 3: golf courses. So everyone who's looking at golf on television
Speaker 3: or or you know, visiting these these big iconic golf
Speaker 3: courses with trees both left and right, everyone comes back,
Speaker 3: club members, board members, committee members, club presidents and go,
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, look what this course has. Then they're
Speaker 3: doing it right because they're hosting major championships. So we've
Speaker 3: got to do that. And then, you know, something so
Speaker 3: innocent and so respectful of the game, you know, dramatically
Speaker 3: changes your golf course, and it changes it so slowly
Speaker 3: over time that you just lose sight of what you had.
Speaker 3: And that's why I think, you know, return of scale
Speaker 3: and tree programs are so important, you know, to recapturing
Speaker 3: the essence of the game of golf.
Speaker 1: The effect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sam Joe member of my club, or Sam
Speaker 2: guy with a permanent tea time at a you know,
Speaker 2: overgrown municipal course. What and I And you know, these
Speaker 2: are readers or listeners of the of the podcast that understand,
Speaker 2: you know, they need to cut down trees. What do
Speaker 2: you think is the best way, since it's such a
Speaker 2: sensitive topic to go about, you know, getting people on
Speaker 2: board with getting rid of trees.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, so many, so many times everyone starts
Speaker 3: keying in on the controversial trees, the ones that will
Speaker 3: have true impact on holes. I tend not to suggest
Speaker 3: doing that, you know, because I think what happens is
Speaker 3: that memberships are golf course, you know, guys who play,
Speaker 3: men and women, you know, need to understand the benefits
Speaker 3: of tree removal. So instead of I don't usually attack
Speaker 3: the big controversial trees first, I try to you know,
Speaker 3: if there's fifty trees down the left side of one
Speaker 3: of whole one, and there's one hundred and fifty trees
Speaker 3: down the right side of whole one, what I'm going
Speaker 3: to suggest is first taking the weak trees out, you know,
Speaker 3: and there will be weak trees both left and right,
Speaker 3: and I just suggest taking the weaker trees out to
Speaker 3: create space, a little bit of space, and then what
Speaker 3: you'll find is no one has any issues with any
Speaker 3: of that. And then then you're able to push it
Speaker 3: a little further and say, okay, look we're going to
Speaker 3: take every fifth tree out here and every seventh tree
Speaker 3: out there. And so suddenly this golf course starts opening
Speaker 3: up softly. And then when people start buying into the idea,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, this does look better. We have more
Speaker 3: space to play golf, we have different views vistas. Then
Speaker 3: I think you've got people on board and there'll be
Speaker 3: a time to take controversial trees down. But I think
Speaker 3: so many clubs focus on that one ty tree. Oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, you know, that's the tree we've got to
Speaker 3: focus on. I tend to do it the other way,
Speaker 3: and I believe a softer approach is a better approach
Speaker 3: in a lot of cases.
Speaker 2: Get rid of those evergreens that are just you know,
Speaker 2: random place next to a tea box.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of kind of your overarching you know,
Speaker 2: restoration process, and we'll talk a little bit about you know,
Speaker 2: restoration since we started with trees, and then we'll get
Speaker 2: into your solo work. But how does you know the
Speaker 2: the restoration process start from you know, when you first
Speaker 2: meet with say a club, to when you start doing
Speaker 2: work and overtime getting closer to a finished project.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know, for me personally, I'm more of
Speaker 3: a relationship person. So you know, when I come in
Speaker 3: to visit a club, you know, I'm you know, I
Speaker 3: want to spend you know, the whole day out on
Speaker 3: the golf course, and I want to go around the
Speaker 3: golf course. I don't want to walk it quietly if
Speaker 3: I want to spend time with the super tendant. And
Speaker 3: I want to understand the golf course right, so I
Speaker 3: have a general understanding of it, But the key on
Speaker 3: it is, you know, one, I need to have an understanding. Two,
Speaker 3: I need to love the golf course. And I need
Speaker 3: to see the possibilities as far as what it can be,
Speaker 3: not what it is, but what it can be and
Speaker 3: what it should be. So I need to have those
Speaker 3: things in my head and truthfully in my heart. And
Speaker 3: then I need to then meet with the committee or
Speaker 3: the board that I'm going to be meeting with, a
Speaker 3: group of golfers that I'm going to be meeting with,
Speaker 3: and really, I just want to listen to them a
Speaker 3: little bit, and then eventually they're going to say to me, Keith, Okay,
Speaker 3: what do you think? And I'm just going to say, Okay,
Speaker 3: this is what I think, and this is what I
Speaker 3: think you should be doing, and this is how I
Speaker 3: believe you could get it accomplished. And then I'm going
Speaker 3: to look at their reactions to what I'm saying. And
Speaker 3: you know, you know, I'm a good read generally on
Speaker 3: people only because I pay attention, and you know, I'm
Speaker 3: going to look at them and you know, they're either
Speaker 3: going to look at me and go, guy, Keys, he's clueless,
Speaker 3: or you know, what he's saying makes sense. And then
Speaker 3: based on my relationship with them and their relationship to me,
Speaker 3: you know, it either affirms or confirms that I shouldn't
Speaker 3: should or shouldn't be there. And that's key because ultimately
Speaker 3: I'm going to be forming a close relationship with these
Speaker 3: people that I'm going to be working with. They've got
Speaker 3: to trust me and I've got to trust them, and
Speaker 3: we're working on this thing together. And I like that
Speaker 3: because I want to be part of something that's bigger
Speaker 3: than me, that's important, and I understand the weight of it.
Speaker 3: And I think that's the real key is that you know,
Speaker 3: there's been so many golf courses that have been touched
Speaker 3: too heavy handedly, and so what happens is the work
Speaker 3: either doesn't endure or doesn't have value. And I'm just
Speaker 3: very mindful that I want to produce stuff. I want
Speaker 3: to produce work that is enduring, that you know, stands
Speaker 3: a test of time, that is timeless, that is classic,
Speaker 3: that you know, honors and respects the courses that I
Speaker 3: work for and who I work for to so so
Speaker 3: it's all based on relationships, Katie.
Speaker 2: How much how much time do you do a lot
Speaker 2: of work before you even go there studying you know,
Speaker 2: say old aerols or or you know, I mean, how
Speaker 2: much of this job when you're doing a restoration as
Speaker 2: being like a historian.
Speaker 3: Okay, I don't before I go anywhere, I don't study
Speaker 3: their course, I don't look at maps. I don't really care,
Speaker 3: you know, And I know that's going to be very
Speaker 3: shocking to maybe you even And I'm not looking at
Speaker 3: a golf course as an archaeological dig. You know, what
Speaker 3: I want to do is okay, if it's a tilling
Speaker 3: has golf course, I understand the characteristics of tilling Has.
Speaker 3: If it's a Ross course, I understand the characteristics of Ross.
Speaker 3: If it's Allison, I understand the characteristics of Alison. If
Speaker 3: it's Maxwell, I understand the characteristics of Maxwell. So I
Speaker 3: inherently already have a foundation. And that foundation I have
Speaker 3: is pretty strong. So I don't need to see what
Speaker 3: they did here or there. I need to see it
Speaker 3: in the ground, and I need to feel it in
Speaker 3: the ground, and then I can see what happened and
Speaker 3: what's missing. If I spend a full day out on
Speaker 3: a golf course, and I would probably say if a
Speaker 3: golf architect can't do that, the club probably shouldn't hire him,
Speaker 3: And so, you know, so I can see it, and
Speaker 3: I think in the end, I just want to talk
Speaker 3: with people about what they want, what I believe possible,
Speaker 3: and how we work together on it. Now, if I
Speaker 3: am the right guy and I am part of it,
Speaker 3: then I will extra every aerial, every image, everything that
Speaker 3: I can, so that I have a foundation most importantly
Speaker 3: of what it was. And not only you know in
Speaker 3: the nineteen thirty nine aeril, but I want to track
Speaker 3: it in forty nine, fifty nine sixty nine seventy nine.
Speaker 3: I want to be able to track what was done
Speaker 3: and when it was done and why it was done,
Speaker 3: so that I understand, you know, what really happened over
Speaker 3: that eighty or ninety years. And that's equally important because
Speaker 3: you need to be able to, you know, figure out
Speaker 3: who did what, when they did it, when the trees
Speaker 3: got added, what pa got added here and there. So
Speaker 3: I'll study all of that once I'm hired, before I
Speaker 3: craft my first plan.
Speaker 2: And then the you know, the master plan, and then
Speaker 2: it goes through iterations and you you know, you worked
Speaker 2: a final product and then you start going on a timeline.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's absolutely right.
Speaker 2: So having worked on you know, you listed off a
Speaker 2: hit list of you know, some of the greatest architects
Speaker 2: of you.
Speaker 1: Know, the Golden Age.
Speaker 2: Which architect would you say that you've gained the most
Speaker 2: appreciation for through their work like that, you you know,
Speaker 2: maybe had one you know, thought of, but now that
Speaker 2: you've gotten so in the weeds, you just really love like.
Speaker 1: What they do.
Speaker 3: Well, you know. I think what's interesting is that Alison
Speaker 3: McKenzie was asked when he was at the pinnacle of
Speaker 3: his career, why did he think Saint Andrew's is such
Speaker 3: a sensational golf course. And you know, the comment was
Speaker 3: made by him, which is he believed that Saint Andrew's
Speaker 3: was as great as it is because he was convinced
Speaker 3: that very little was known about golf architecture, and they
Speaker 3: just kind of took it for what it was. And
Speaker 3: I think sometimes we overanalyze all this enough, like, for instance, Moraine.
Speaker 3: You know, if I mentioned to you Knipper Campbell and
Speaker 3: all of your antique I'm sorry, your architectural guys who
Speaker 3: love antique and crafted old kind of golf courses, they
Speaker 3: would say, who in the world is Nipper Campbell. He's
Speaker 3: not tilling Has, he's not Alice, and he's not Ross,
Speaker 3: he's not Mackenzie, he's not Maxwell, he's not Rainer, So
Speaker 3: how good is his golf course? But the truth is
Speaker 3: Moraine was done by Knipper Campbell and it was a charming, wonderful,
Speaker 3: well thought out golf course. And so you know, I
Speaker 3: think what's exciting is, you know, to find these gems
Speaker 3: that are off the radar, and that's the work that
Speaker 3: I like to do most. I'd much rather take a
Speaker 3: golf course that you know is is maybe a little
Speaker 3: of an obscure gem and polish that and reset act
Speaker 3: because it forces me to pay even more attention to
Speaker 3: you know, the little nuances in the details, which I
Speaker 3: really love.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just finished right in my uh right up on
Speaker 2: Marine actually this afternoon, and it's like, you know, Nipper,
Speaker 2: you see so many of the guys that you know,
Speaker 2: Nipper Campbell had a similar pedigree of a ross And
Speaker 2: I think that golf course if you put, if you
Speaker 2: attach a big name architect tech to it, it would
Speaker 2: have been considered, you know, one of the you know,
Speaker 2: greatest golf courses in you know, the mid Atlantic or
Speaker 2: whatever you call Ohio Dayton, Ohio's region. But because it
Speaker 2: doesn't have that name brand, it gets kind of hurt.
Speaker 2: But you go there, and you know, I played my
Speaker 2: USM qualifier there this year, and I mean I was
Speaker 2: absolutely blown away getting to play it three times in
Speaker 2: two days.
Speaker 1: It was you know, you.
Speaker 2: You gained such an appreciation and it still stands up today.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And the principles were so simple they use He uses
Speaker 2: the land so well there. But he's not a household name,
Speaker 2: but he grew up playing you know, great Scottish courses
Speaker 2: and then you know it was around great golf in America.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And what's nice about that is I was able
Speaker 3: to take the best qualities that Knipper Campbell did and
Speaker 3: the areas where maybe I needed to improve or embellish,
Speaker 3: I was able to do it without having to justify anything.
Speaker 3: And and so I, you know, I was respectful of
Speaker 3: Knipper Campbell, and more importantly, I was respectful of Moraine
Speaker 3: and the ground. And then all I wanted to do
Speaker 3: is just make sure that Nipper Campbell got the credit.
Speaker 3: And then I just executed the work flawlessly or the
Speaker 3: best I could. And then you know, highlight some of
Speaker 3: the features that he did do and then insert other
Speaker 3: elements that are similar or compatible to what he would
Speaker 3: have done or should have done, and then I just
Speaker 3: embellished them and executed it, you know, hopefully better than
Speaker 3: he would have done it back in the day. And
Speaker 3: you know that's what I try to do.
Speaker 2: What what did you say, and what would you find
Speaker 2: like that? What would you say his weakness was that
Speaker 2: you kind of worked on the most.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't you know, I don't think any golf architect.
Speaker 3: You know, look when kill he built his golf course
Speaker 3: back when let's say, or anybody years later, golf course
Speaker 3: maintenance and practices and all these all of these things
Speaker 3: that make golf courses now much better and tighter and
Speaker 3: more enduring. You know, uh, there is no perfect person.
Speaker 3: There's no perfect golf course architect. You know. Every golf
Speaker 3: course architect you know produces work based on what they're doing.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Killing has work has been improved
Speaker 3: by people working on it and dialing the details in,
Speaker 3: and Nipper Campbell's work is the same, you know. So
Speaker 3: I don't really look when I'm working on people's projects
Speaker 3: like a Maxwell or chilling House or Ross or Nipper Campbell.
Speaker 3: I don't look at where their weaknesses are. I just
Speaker 3: look at what they did and how can I take
Speaker 3: what they did and make it better. So I don't
Speaker 3: really look at flaws like my wife will say, my gosh, Keith,
Speaker 3: you know you know about this person that person, And
Speaker 3: I just don't hear anything negative. I don't see anything negative.
Speaker 3: I don't hear anything negative, and I don't ever dwell
Speaker 3: on negative. I just focus on how it can be
Speaker 3: better and call it that, and then just try to
Speaker 3: dial in my work and make it the best that
Speaker 3: it can be.
Speaker 1: See, I need to spend more time with you.
Speaker 2: I go to so many you know, I see these
Speaker 2: like especially municipal courses that are Golden age courses, and
Speaker 2: you know all that's been done to them and how
Speaker 2: they've been treated.
Speaker 1: I just I get like, I'm.
Speaker 2: Excited because they could be so good, but then I'm
Speaker 2: just so sad about what they are.
Speaker 3: Well, And I think what happens unfortunately with municipal golf
Speaker 3: courses are that at least the best courses in the
Speaker 3: country are able financially to hire the best golf architects
Speaker 3: in the country to do the most sensitive work. Okay,
Speaker 3: municipal golf courses, on the other hand, you know can't
Speaker 3: take you know, they take the cheapest guy, the cheapest architect,
Speaker 3: they take the cheapest contractor, and they expect great results
Speaker 3: with such great limitations. So the truth is, you know,
Speaker 3: they have no chance of being really great because you know,
Speaker 3: they're they're picking fruit, the lowest hanging fruit. And that's
Speaker 3: no that's no disrespect to the guys that are doing
Speaker 3: the work. They're doing the best work that they can do.
Speaker 3: But it's kind of like in my career, if I
Speaker 3: you know, I believe I am doing my best work
Speaker 3: ever right now now at thirty thirty five. When I'm
Speaker 3: starting out, I'm doing the best work that I can.
Speaker 3: Then I don't have the wealth of experience that I
Speaker 3: do now and the weight of my work and my
Speaker 3: eye and so even though I'm doing the best work
Speaker 3: that I can at thirty thirty five, I'm probably doing
Speaker 3: more than I should be. And I don't have the resources,
Speaker 3: you know, and the appreciation of the game as I
Speaker 3: do now. And every golf architect's the same way, so
Speaker 3: we all have to start out a certain place. And
Speaker 3: just like me, I mean I started, you know, I
Speaker 3: played golf on am a municipal golf course because my parents,
Speaker 3: we weren't country club people, So you know, I grew
Speaker 3: up on a municipal golf course because we couldn't afford
Speaker 3: anything better. And I learned playing golf on a municipal
Speaker 3: golf course because that's all my family could afford. So
Speaker 3: I come from that kind of grassroot as opposed to
Speaker 3: a pedigree of you know, playing at you know, exclusive
Speaker 3: private club.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I grew up playing the local muni
Speaker 2: and it's amazing to me how many people that I
Speaker 2: have on this podcast grew up, you know, playing the
Speaker 2: local muny that get into golf and do you know,
Speaker 2: big things, it's a municipal golf is it's such a
Speaker 2: I've gotten wrapped up into it and it's been it
Speaker 2: just it drives me nuts.
Speaker 1: But then there's also.
Speaker 2: Such a beauty to it of you know when you
Speaker 2: see people out at a good municipal course.
Speaker 3: Well, that's right, I mean, and you know that's what's
Speaker 3: so wonderful about our game. I mean, the game of
Speaker 3: golf is such an intriguing, captivating game, even at a
Speaker 3: level at a municipal golf course, there's great charm in it,
Speaker 3: and I think for most time, I believe it's actually
Speaker 3: the simplest form and the nicest form of golf where
Speaker 3: it's just not overdone, and I think, you know, there's
Speaker 3: great joy in that and just being able to play
Speaker 3: the game as opposed to expecting everything to be perfect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask, you know, getting
Speaker 2: into your solo designs, you know, one of the themes
Speaker 2: I see when I look through them is that so
Speaker 2: many of them are affordable under one hundred and hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty dollars, grape spots and areas to play golf.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you went into you know, the
Speaker 2: design process with is you know, is building affordable golf?
Speaker 3: Actually? No, you know, I wish I could say to
Speaker 3: you Andy, oh yes, this was something that I wanted
Speaker 3: to do when I carefully crapped in my career to
Speaker 3: do that. The simple truth is, you know, when I
Speaker 3: left art Hills to create my own firm, who was
Speaker 3: going to hire me? So, you know, the jobs that
Speaker 3: I could get were the jobs that I got. You know,
Speaker 3: I believe that I get the work that I'm supposed
Speaker 3: to get, and I don't get work that I'm not
Speaker 3: supposed to get. So when I started my firm, sure,
Speaker 3: you know, no really high end people that are going
Speaker 3: to charge huge money are going to hire me. They're
Speaker 3: going to go Fazio, Rhys Jones and art Hills, the
Speaker 3: guy that I used to work for. You know, why
Speaker 3: would they give me an opportunity? However, the municipal golf
Speaker 3: courses would look at my background, my foundation, and my
Speaker 3: fee is cheap. So I got an opportunity there. And
Speaker 3: so when when I left art Hills to create my
Speaker 3: own firm, you know the only work I could get
Speaker 3: and the only work that was presented to me happened
Speaker 3: to the municipal golf courses. And I started my career
Speaker 3: and just trying to earn a living doing that. And
Speaker 3: I felt very, very comfortable doing that because, you know,
Speaker 3: and it just so happened that they were affordable golf
Speaker 3: courses and that's where the game was, you know, at
Speaker 3: that time. And then all of a sudden, right around
Speaker 3: two thousand, something happened in my little career. And you know,
Speaker 3: so for the first four or five years of my
Speaker 3: career as a solo person, you know, in the late
Speaker 3: nineties up to two thousand and two thousand and one
Speaker 3: and two, the only work I was doing was daily
Speaker 3: fee golf, municipal golf. And I really wasn't working on
Speaker 3: renovation or restoration of golf courses. I was focusing on,
Speaker 3: you know, public golf.
Speaker 2: What change that you got over to the you know,
Speaker 2: doing so many restorations. What was the kind of first
Speaker 2: project or you know, shit turning.
Speaker 3: Point, Well, two things happened to me. And the first
Speaker 3: thing was, okay, so you know, I start my business.
Speaker 3: I'm in my early thirties, and I'm doing some work
Speaker 3: and everything's going great. I'm very thankful, I'm very happy.
Speaker 3: All of it's good. And then a notable club calls
Speaker 3: me and said, Keith, can you come out and take
Speaker 3: a look at our golf course? And I said sure,
Speaker 3: and you know it was it was a notable golf course, right,
Speaker 3: And so my job was just to make sure that
Speaker 3: what they were doing. I'm not rethinking their golf course.
Speaker 3: I'm just making sure that what is going to be
Speaker 3: done is going to be done well, you know, because
Speaker 3: I do have a maintenance background. I do have a
Speaker 3: construction background, you know, and I worked for Art Hills,
Speaker 3: so you know, my foundation is pretty solid. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, I go to Chicago and my mentor
Speaker 3: takes me to Chicago and this is all around two thousand,
Speaker 3: thousand and one. And my mentor, who I have such
Speaker 3: a great deal of respect for it is probably one
Speaker 3: of the most talented men in the game of golf.
Speaker 3: And you're most of the people that are going to
Speaker 3: listen to your podcast don't even know his name, but
Speaker 3: he is, you know, he is the most talented, soft spoken, articulate,
Speaker 3: you know, gifted with you know, with a great eye
Speaker 3: in the business and so I met him in Chicago
Speaker 3: and we played two golf courses one day and two
Speaker 3: golf courses the next day. We play Shore Acres in
Speaker 3: Chicago golf one day, and then we play two other
Speaker 3: big name golf courses. And I don't want to say
Speaker 3: and the comment, you know, And then he said to me,
Speaker 3: he said, okay, Keith, what do you think what's the difference?
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I said, the first day we
Speaker 3: played enduring classic architecture that was great and always will
Speaker 3: be great. The second day we played something that's just
Speaker 3: flash in the pan, that's just overrated and not enduring.
Speaker 3: And he said, well, what do you think, Keith? And
Speaker 3: I said, I don't want to do the latter. I
Speaker 3: want to be part of only enduring work. And at
Speaker 3: that time I returned home told my wife. I said, Pam,
Speaker 3: I'm going to take She said, Keith, what are you
Speaker 3: gonna do? And I said, I'm going to take less
Speaker 3: work and I'm going to focus more on making sure
Speaker 3: if I work on any project that I'm committed to
Speaker 3: great and I'm committed to enduring work, timeless work, seamless work.
Speaker 3: And I broke my firm. I just broke my firm down,
Speaker 3: and I said, I want to do great. How do
Speaker 3: I do great? The only way I can do great
Speaker 3: is spend more time than anybody else is on a job.
Speaker 3: And I'm going to focus on details, and it's not
Speaker 3: going to be about me. It's going to be about
Speaker 3: the game of golf and great results.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a quality over quiet. I have to
Speaker 2: ask who's the mentor.
Speaker 3: So my mentor was a gentleman by the name of
Speaker 3: Brent Wadsworth from construction. Yes, and but the head of
Speaker 3: head of Wadsworth is Brent Wadsworth, and Brent Wadsworth. Somehow,
Speaker 3: when I'm twenty seven years old, I began working for
Speaker 3: Wadsworth Company, and I had the good fortune that Brent
Speaker 3: saw something in me and took an interest in me
Speaker 3: and invested himself in me, and he taught me so much,
Speaker 3: and I am just so thankful for him. And I mean,
Speaker 3: I've worked for a lot of architects, and I've seen
Speaker 3: a lot of people do work, but you know, his,
Speaker 3: I his attention to detail, his ability to communicate and
Speaker 3: and do so in a soft way still to this day,
Speaker 3: is just a marvel to me. And you know, I
Speaker 3: recognized it then and years all these years later, which
Speaker 3: is what you know, twenty five twenty years twenty five
Speaker 3: years later, Yeah, twenty five years later, he's still you know,
Speaker 3: he is my my baseline, and so I have a
Speaker 3: long way to go to get to him, but you know,
Speaker 3: just in terms of eye and talent and communication skills
Speaker 3: and all that, but you know, he is my goal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Chicago is an interesting place for it
Speaker 2: to happen because I mean, I'm from here, so I've
Speaker 2: got a general idea of where I probably have an
Speaker 2: idea of one of the courses.
Speaker 1: I'm not positive on the second.
Speaker 2: But yeah, short akers in Chicago golf are going to
Speaker 2: be good for probably another one hundred or two hundred years.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, look, whatever any of us do in
Speaker 3: our careers, right, whatever it is, you know, if our work,
Speaker 3: whatever we do, can endure, you know, no different than art, literature, music, whatever.
Speaker 3: But if our work can endure and whatever we do,
Speaker 3: you know, that's that really matters. I mean, you're doing
Speaker 3: something that is meaningful and you're you know, what you're
Speaker 3: doing has weight, and that's what I wanted to do.
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't want to be negative about
Speaker 3: anybody's work and what was there. But what it did
Speaker 3: is it gave me a look at what the difference was. Yes,
Speaker 3: and you know, and I've always held to that, and
Speaker 3: I was so thankful that Brent suggests that I come
Speaker 3: to Chicago and you know, just did that and he
Speaker 3: let me see the difference and I felt the difference,
Speaker 3: saw the difference, and committed to the difference.
Speaker 1: So you know, it was just changing gears a little.
Speaker 2: That I'm curious when you get a course that has like,
Speaker 2: you know, multiple architects throughout time, like so you know,
Speaker 2: one that comes to mind in Chicago is like a
Speaker 2: place like Skoky that's had you know, Donald Ross's work
Speaker 2: on it, William Langford and Theodorma.
Speaker 1: Rowe work on it.
Speaker 2: Like how do you go about places that have had
Speaker 2: you know, change, you know a couple of times throughout
Speaker 2: you know, their early years from you know, you know,
Speaker 2: seemingly great architects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, like like for instance, Okay, Skokie.
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with Skoky to a certain extent, but not
Speaker 3: really because it's not my project and I didn't study
Speaker 3: it and I didn't do it right. So but so
Speaker 3: I can't really comment about that. However, like Philly Cricket,
Speaker 3: for instance, killing has did the routing and William Flynn
Speaker 3: came in three years later. Yep, So then I have
Speaker 3: to extract what Tilly did and what Flynn did, and
Speaker 3: you know, what had more merit and what was the
Speaker 3: reason that Flynn was brought in. So for instance, when
Speaker 3: Ross comes in and then Langford comes in at Skokey,
Speaker 3: why you know, you have to ask a question why
Speaker 3: was Langford brought in? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Now that is an example, but I figured you'd have,
Speaker 2: you know, something else that would be similar.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what happens there is there has to be
Speaker 3: a reason why another architect was then brought in either
Speaker 3: you know, either it was architectural, or it was maintenance
Speaker 3: related or is construction related or you know, for instance,
Speaker 3: with Langford and Moreau, how about they were based in Chicago.
Speaker 3: So if Skokey you have Ross, who's not based in Chicago,
Speaker 3: Ross does it the club has someone that they want
Speaker 3: to turn to for other things like maybe adding a
Speaker 3: bunker here, doing something else. Ringford and Moreau are in Chicago,
Speaker 3: they seem to be the logical choice, right, So it
Speaker 3: might be something as simple as that. However, on the
Speaker 3: other hand, if you have one golf course by a
Speaker 3: notable architect, you know, where it's really a problem is Okay,
Speaker 3: Let's say, for instance, Skokie was there, and then you
Speaker 3: had Ross and Langford Moreau, and then in the fifties
Speaker 3: and sixties and seventies and eighties it was touched by
Speaker 3: three other architects. Then you have to come back and say, okay,
Speaker 3: what is meaningful and what are you going to strip back?
Speaker 3: And in that regard, a lot of golf courses have
Speaker 3: been obviously affected, you know, by many other architects, and
Speaker 3: many other green committees and many other club presidents. So
Speaker 3: I think in the end, golf course renovation, restoration, whatever
Speaker 3: it is, sometimes you know, it's stripping away the work
Speaker 3: that shouldn't have been done. And I think ultimately that's
Speaker 3: what golf course renovation is, and sensitive restoration and renovation is.
Speaker 3: You have to strip away what shouldn't have been done,
Speaker 3: whether it's tree removal, t placement, angles fair away with
Speaker 3: and even other architects. You know, I think most clubs,
Speaker 3: you know, make the mistake that every architect, if you're
Speaker 3: a golf architect, you're a golf architect and you're going
Speaker 3: to get the same results with different architects. You're not,
Speaker 3: you know, uh, you know, there's there's levels of expectations
Speaker 3: and and and gifts and talents and so different golf
Speaker 3: architects are going to see golf holes differently.
Speaker 2: It's and the do It's like one of the beauties
Speaker 2: of it is that you know, if you give you
Speaker 2: get if you get thirty golf course architects one land
Speaker 2: piece of land, you'll get thirty completely different you know works.
Speaker 3: That's that's exactly right. However, one of you, one of
Speaker 3: them is going to produce enduring work. That's the difference.
Speaker 3: So let's say if you give a golf architect, you know,
Speaker 3: thirty guys this piece of property and they produce it.
Speaker 3: Of those thirty, how many are really going to produce
Speaker 3: Depending on what thirty guys you ask, how many of
Speaker 3: those thirty guys are going to produce enduring work, work
Speaker 3: that will last. That's the key right there.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like.
Speaker 2: You probably could do a good amount of math from
Speaker 2: how many bad courses there are and come to a
Speaker 2: reasonable conclusion.
Speaker 3: Agreed.
Speaker 1: So Harry Richards.
Speaker 2: One of our listeners, asked, what's been your most challenging restoration.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I mean I really appreciate the question
Speaker 3: on it. Yeah. I tend to think the most challenging
Speaker 3: renovation of restoration that I'm working on at the time
Speaker 3: is the most challenging one to me. Like every renovation
Speaker 3: project or any restoration project has its own challenges, right,
Speaker 3: I mean it really does, because everything is unique and
Speaker 3: interesting and different, but for different reasons. Everyone has its
Speaker 3: own challenge. Like Philly Cricket. Philly Cricket's challenge was, this
Speaker 3: is Tilling has home course, Keith. This is me saying
Speaker 3: it to myself, Keeth, you better not screw this up.
Speaker 3: This is Tilling has Home Course. Okay. On the other hand,
Speaker 3: Moraine Moraine hires me. My gosh, Keith, We've got to
Speaker 3: produce something really, really strong because the club is, you know,
Speaker 3: putting all this responsibility on me, and I don't want
Speaker 3: to let them down. I want to honor them. I'm
Speaker 3: working right now at a club called apple Wamas, the
Speaker 3: Appowamas Club. It's quirky, it's funky, it's different. But this
Speaker 3: thing is on and it's challenging. There's nothing easy about that.
Speaker 3: So I think, really I just try to focus on
Speaker 3: the work that I'm doing right then, and I recognize
Speaker 3: that their challenges and I've got to solve them or
Speaker 3: help solve them or be part of the solution. And
Speaker 3: you know, I've had one or two that are easy, easier,
Speaker 3: But you know, you have committees members that you've got
Speaker 3: to exceed their expectations. You have budgets, you know that
Speaker 3: you have to manage, you have timelines with different contractors.
Speaker 3: And you know every golf architect he doesn't have the
Speaker 3: same contractor doing the work, so you have to still
Speaker 3: get great results with different contractors. And that's in itself
Speaker 3: is its own challenge. So I think right now, I'm
Speaker 3: working on three projects right now right and of the three,
Speaker 3: the Applewamas Club is a greater challenge because it is
Speaker 3: so difficul Everything about it is hard. But you know
Speaker 3: last year's projects. You know, if I'm doing three in
Speaker 3: a year, of those three, one of them is going
Speaker 3: to be the most difficult, and then the other two
Speaker 3: become a little easier because they're compared to the more
Speaker 3: difficult one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously like having you know, some projects are bigger
Speaker 2: than other projects, But is it just.
Speaker 1: Do you think three is kind of your sweet spot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I try to do that. I mean, look,
Speaker 3: I could do more golf and I could do more work, right,
Speaker 3: And the way I do more golf and more work
Speaker 3: is I take more projects and I spend less time
Speaker 3: on them. I mean really, that's what golf architects do.
Speaker 3: You take you get more work, and when you get
Speaker 3: more work, what you're saying is to do more work,
Speaker 3: I have to spend less time on the projects that
Speaker 3: I get because you know, you only have so much time.
Speaker 3: Like I work, you know, seventy to eighty hours a week.
Speaker 3: That's how much I work. So if I'm working seventy
Speaker 3: to eighty hours a week, I leave every Monday morning
Speaker 3: five am, I get home Friday night at midnight, okay,
Speaker 3: and then Saturday I'm drawing. Sunday I'm with my family. Okay.
Speaker 3: But that's what I'm doing. And I can only handle
Speaker 3: three programs at a time because the week can only
Speaker 3: generate so many days. So I spend a day and
Speaker 3: a half two days per project each week when I'm
Speaker 3: doing them. So that's why three is, you know it.
Speaker 3: I can't do any more than that, you know, because
Speaker 3: there's just not enough time. And you know, that's how
Speaker 3: much time I want to spend on the projects because
Speaker 3: I want to produce great work.
Speaker 1: That's what you said at the beginning. You want to
Speaker 1: do less but do better work.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's the crazy thing about architects and architecture.
Speaker 2: You're you're like an unknown for a while, and then
Speaker 2: you get popular and then you.
Speaker 1: Have too much work. And you know, so you see
Speaker 1: it all the time where sometimes people take on too.
Speaker 2: Much and then they go back to doing little, and
Speaker 2: it's it's a really it's an industry that's so different
Speaker 2: than almost any.
Speaker 1: Other profession.
Speaker 3: And you're a spot on andy. And so my wife,
Speaker 3: who is fantastic, she reminds me, Keith, you just need
Speaker 3: to learn how to say no more. And and that's
Speaker 3: hard because all of us want to please our clients.
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm always reminded that I need to
Speaker 3: get the work that is right for me. And that's why,
Speaker 3: you know, I look at people and relationships and you know,
Speaker 3: if they can trust me, if I can trust them,
Speaker 3: and then together we work on something that is meaningful.
Speaker 3: And then you know, these clubs are going to invest
Speaker 3: their time and money right to try to get results
Speaker 3: that are exceptional I'm giving part of my life to this,
Speaker 3: so I've got to produce something really, really great because
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, look, we all are going
Speaker 3: to get paid, but the money is not The important
Speaker 3: part is the results. It's the weight of our work
Speaker 3: behind us. And so you know, I promise my wife,
Speaker 3: my family, myself that I'm not going to take too
Speaker 3: much work because in the end, I'm not measuring how
Speaker 3: much work I'm doing. So it goes back to my
Speaker 3: mentor when I went to Chicago. I'm trying to do
Speaker 3: enduring work. I'm not trying to do more work. And
Speaker 3: you know, you know my gauge is great, and I
Speaker 3: just want to be part of great.
Speaker 1: So do you get a lot of time to play?
Speaker 3: Ever? You know I don't. And you know that's the
Speaker 3: So any of your listeners that say, oh, I'd love
Speaker 3: to be a golf architect, you can be a golf architect.
Speaker 3: You just can't play because if you have time to
Speaker 3: play and work on your game, you're not working on
Speaker 3: your clients, and your clients are paying you so and
Speaker 3: you're trying to establish a reputation not by playing but
Speaker 3: by your work. So you know, I love the game
Speaker 3: of golf. I think it's fantastic. I just don't have
Speaker 3: the time to beat balls and to maintain a swing
Speaker 3: that you know is notable. So when we lived in Kentucky,
Speaker 3: I built a nine hole golf course on our farm
Speaker 3: and it was a circa nineteen hundred golf course. So
Speaker 3: you actually, you know, you would play with gut to
Speaker 3: perch of balls and you would play it with smooth
Speaker 3: face irons and long nose and it was so fantastic.
Speaker 3: And and I could go outside our barn and I
Speaker 3: could play it in forty five minute swing, and I
Speaker 3: could you know, I could also play with big arm
Speaker 3: you know, our big time clubs now. But you know
Speaker 3: I could get back to the game, and I could
Speaker 3: do that in a quick thing. You know, all of
Speaker 3: us are struggling and fighting for time, and that's the
Speaker 3: whole thing is. You know, we have all this technology,
Speaker 3: you know, and all this technology is great, but all
Speaker 3: of us are starved for time. And so you know,
Speaker 3: I'm the same way. And what what I'm giving up
Speaker 3: is playing. And then maybe in ten years, you know,
Speaker 3: I get the opportunity to go back and return to
Speaker 3: playing the game. But right now, you know, I'm focused on,
Speaker 3: you know, trying to do great work, so I don't
Speaker 3: really get a chance to play much.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean I think that technology sucks the time to
Speaker 2: make it like so much easier to do so much stuff,
Speaker 2: but it just takes away the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, uh, Josh Bill's asked this question, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to just adapt it a little bit. But what is
Speaker 2: the one course that you'd love to work on? And
Speaker 2: we're going to say that doesn't have a consulting architect
Speaker 2: and we're going to make it, you know, say a
Speaker 2: unique golf course that you've seen or stumbled across that
Speaker 2: doesn't have you know, doesn't have a consulting architect, and
Speaker 2: has the budget to let you do what you want.
Speaker 1: Which one would it be?
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh? I mean look, okay, so every one
Speaker 3: of your listeners either likes long you know, like if
Speaker 3: I said to you, what kind of par four do
Speaker 3: you like? Some of your listeners and you may say,
Speaker 3: I want a power part four where I can hit
Speaker 3: this shot or have to hit that shot and so on. Okay,
Speaker 3: I tend to go towards quirky, unique, charming kind of places,
Speaker 3: maybe under the radar kind of places. So I like
Speaker 3: things that are kind of lost gem and I like
Speaker 3: things that are just a little off if you will,
Speaker 3: you know, like if you if you look at a
Speaker 3: mantle of your you know, above your fireplace, some people
Speaker 3: will have two of something or it's perfectly balanced. I'm
Speaker 3: more of an offset person, So I want something that's
Speaker 3: just a little a little tattered, a little worn, that
Speaker 3: hasn't been messed up too much. So you know, like,
Speaker 3: for instance, there is this charming place called Myopia Hunt. Okay,
Speaker 3: I would love to touch that place and not touch
Speaker 3: it hard, but just to be exposed to something like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, I just love it. I just love the name,
Speaker 3: I love its quirkiness. But if I could work on anything,
Speaker 3: I would want to go to Swinley's Forest, the par
Speaker 3: sixty nine golf course that Harry Colt did, and just
Speaker 3: play in the bunkers and just I mean, you can't
Speaker 3: improve that golf course, because the golf course is incredible,
Speaker 3: but you could learn, you could play, you could study,
Speaker 3: and you know, you could be within something that's really
Speaker 3: quirky and great. And you know that's where I would
Speaker 3: probably migrate towards. You know, it's just those really you know,
Speaker 3: charming throwback clubs.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of those in the Northeast.
Speaker 2: Yes, And then I imagine it plays perfectly into Alistair
Speaker 2: Philip's question, what's your top three in the UK?
Speaker 1: And I assume Swinley would be in there.
Speaker 3: It has to be. And you know, I mean, I
Speaker 3: love golf in the UK. And when I would, you know,
Speaker 3: play a lot. What I ended up doing every year
Speaker 3: is I would do all my work in the year
Speaker 3: and as sort as I finished my work, I would
Speaker 3: take two weeks off and I would go to Scotland,
Speaker 3: in Ireland or England and I would play for two
Speaker 3: weeks and I played forty five fifty four holes today
Speaker 3: and immerse myself into the game and then I would
Speaker 3: come back rejuvenated to do it again. And I just
Speaker 3: love that. And so, you know, I love golf in
Speaker 3: the UK and then Scotland and Ireland because you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's the game in the purest sense. Okay. But
Speaker 3: in terms of architecture, I like quirky, so you know
Speaker 3: in England, you know, I think I love cults work,
Speaker 3: and so I love Sunningdale. I love you know, Swinley forests.
Speaker 3: I just think they're really, really exceptional and so I
Speaker 3: love those two golf courses especially, but if I picked
Speaker 3: one in England, it would probably be that. You know,
Speaker 3: I love golf in Scotland, Saint Andrew's, you know, I
Speaker 3: think it's fantastic, But I love the charm of North
Speaker 3: Berwick and it's just obscure and funky and a little
Speaker 3: different and charming in its own way. And it's rough.
Speaker 3: It's kind of almost as a feel of the municipal
Speaker 3: golf course because it is so rough, you know, and
Speaker 3: I like that. And then and you know, I just
Speaker 3: you know, golf in Ireland. I mean, shoot, Port Rush
Speaker 3: is incredible. Uh, you know, Port Rush is great. You know.
Speaker 3: I I tend to kind of go towards that because
Speaker 3: I just think it's really really neat. But Port Marnock
Speaker 3: is neat, so you know. But if I could choose
Speaker 3: three golf courses, I would probably just do all Harry
Speaker 3: Colt courses, so and just go go all three.
Speaker 2: So Harry Cole, he's he doesn't get talked about in
Speaker 2: the US because you know, Allison did the most most
Speaker 2: of the work here, what you know, knowing both so well,
Speaker 2: what was the difference between you know, how Alison built courses.
Speaker 1: And how cold is well?
Speaker 3: I think, what's yeah? You know, so Colt's work is
Speaker 3: interesting and you know, so your listener would you know,
Speaker 3: he asked, well, what are the three in the UK?
Speaker 3: And I would migrate, you know, if I could choose,
Speaker 3: if I had to choose all three, I would say Colt.
Speaker 3: I would say England and be good with that, and
Speaker 3: probably all the courses in Surrey, England would probably be
Speaker 3: my choice as opposed to even Scotland or Ireland. Okay,
Speaker 3: but now Colt and Allison, so Colt, Okay, this is
Speaker 3: here's the difference between you know, Harry Colt. So, when
Speaker 3: asked about his best golf course, Harry Colt says, you know,
Speaker 3: Swinley Forest is my least bad golf course. Okay. Now,
Speaker 3: Swinley Forest is a really great golf course. But it
Speaker 3: is so understated, it's so off the radar, it's so charming.
Speaker 3: It's just what golf should be, which is a great walk.
Speaker 3: And I think that's really good. So I tend to
Speaker 3: think that Harry Colt's work is softer placed in terms
Speaker 3: of bunkering. There's more artistry in the bunkering.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a bit more subtle. Okay, Now,
Speaker 3: Alison when he comes over here, Alison is a tremendous talent.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Colt was involved at Pine Valley.
Speaker 3: Alison was also involved at Pine Valley, and to make
Speaker 3: Pine Valley so special at Alison's work when he you know,
Speaker 3: so he works for Colt, but Colt has his own philosophy.
Speaker 3: Colt mentors Alison. Alison comes over here in the twenties.
Speaker 3: All of the work that is Cold and Alison, for
Speaker 3: the most part, is done by Alison. Alison creates teas
Speaker 3: that are low to the ground. His green pads are big, giant, strong,
Speaker 3: proud greens, and the bunkers are boldly cut underneath. So
Speaker 3: there's less subtle tea in Alison's work, but it's bigger
Speaker 3: landforms and you know, it's more impactful. So Colt was
Speaker 3: more subtle, Alison was bolder in his presentation of golf
Speaker 3: scale and otherwise. So there's the difference right there. You know. Basically,
Speaker 3: you know, I grew.
Speaker 2: Up working at Nola Club and Alison of course in
Speaker 2: Chicago that I know you you worked on after my
Speaker 2: time of working there, and uh you Nail, I mean
Speaker 2: that's it's really bold with a big bunkering and raised
Speaker 2: up greens and it's it's exactly how you described it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it makes and it and it makes
Speaker 3: sense because if you're Alison, right, think about this. If
Speaker 3: if you're Alison and your mentor is cult and you're
Speaker 3: working for Colt, you know, you're not going to create
Speaker 3: cult work. You're going to create work that is your own.
Speaker 3: And and so he got away from that and that
Speaker 3: became something really important to him, you know, when he
Speaker 3: just perfected it through the twenties and then you know,
Speaker 3: when the depression hits, he goes to Japan and he
Speaker 3: creates some great golf courses in the thirties in Japan,
Speaker 3: and and then and later in his years he goes
Speaker 3: to Australia in the forties and you know, produces some
Speaker 3: really great golf courses in Australia.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: He might be the most worldwide traveled man.
Speaker 3: I agreed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's surprisingly it's something changed obviously after the Golden
Speaker 4: Age because Colet and Alison, you know, they were longtime partners.
Speaker 2: They had Mackenzie and they all got their names on
Speaker 2: the firm. You know, Morrison then comes in gets his
Speaker 2: name on the firm. But now you see firms and
Speaker 2: you know you'll have you know, say it's a Jones firm.
Speaker 2: They have these project architects that don't get their names
Speaker 2: on the firm, but do you know the design work,
Speaker 2: and it's kind of it.
Speaker 1: It's weird how that shifted.
Speaker 3: It is interesting, isn't it? And you know, so so
Speaker 3: what you had right there is like, for instance, you
Speaker 3: had Colt, Alison, Morrison and Mackenzie and really, what Colt
Speaker 3: did you think about this when they had that partnership.
Speaker 3: Colt is doing the work in England, Alison is doing
Speaker 3: the work in eastern US and in the Midwest. Mackenzie
Speaker 3: was doing the work out west. So they all had
Speaker 3: regions or territories, which is really really you know, charming,
Speaker 3: you know, But suddenly you know, here in the States
Speaker 3: and US everything you know, we want, we want the notoriety.
Speaker 3: And so what has happened is the game of golf. Well, look,
Speaker 3: Tilling has you know you think about Tilling has Tilling
Speaker 3: has had his guys, the Tilling has got the credit.
Speaker 3: Ross had his guys and Ross got the credit. So
Speaker 3: there is a more. Oh, I would probably say the
Speaker 3: English are a softer breed, aren't they in terms of
Speaker 3: you know, being able to give credit and a little
Speaker 3: bit more accepting of those kind of things. But here
Speaker 3: in the States with tillinghas Ross and Jones and everybody else,
Speaker 3: you know, we tend to, you know, the the name
Speaker 3: you know gets the recognition. Just like when I worked
Speaker 3: for Art Hills. You no, my job was to make
Speaker 3: Art look the best he could make and be. It
Speaker 3: wasn't about me. It was about making sure that who
Speaker 3: I worked for was the star. And I was you know,
Speaker 3: I'm in the line, on the line. He's a quarterback
Speaker 3: and it's okay. You know, you have to invest and
Speaker 3: put your time in there. But you know, it is
Speaker 3: certainly different than you know Colet, Alison, Mackenzie and Morrison.
Speaker 2: I wonder if that work, if you did that today,
Speaker 2: if you you know, you put together you know guys
Speaker 2: and said we're a firm that we cover all, you know,
Speaker 2: any interesting concepts.
Speaker 3: You know, I'd love that. I mean, truthfully, I think
Speaker 3: it'd be fantastic. I think what you have to have
Speaker 3: is the key on that whole thing is the guy
Speaker 3: at the first name, Colt. Okay, so it goes back
Speaker 3: to Colt, right, Colt said at Swinley Forest it is
Speaker 3: my least bad golf course.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So Colt was a humble man, a quiet man, a
Speaker 3: man of great subtlety and charm, and he didn't have
Speaker 3: a really big ego. So you know, but if you
Speaker 3: look at you know, some of the other you know,
Speaker 3: maybe that just doesn't happen. So I think it started
Speaker 3: with cult personally, like right now in my career, I
Speaker 3: would love to do that because I hope that I'm
Speaker 3: becoming a better person, and you know, I would love,
Speaker 3: you know, to do something like that. So Andy, you've
Speaker 3: got some guys with some great talent.
Speaker 1: I'd love to do it, all right, I'll uh, I'll
Speaker 1: send them your way. I think law firms do it.
Speaker 1: You know, it makes a lot of sense. We got
Speaker 1: a couple of other really good questions that I want
Speaker 1: to get to. I don't want you. You're a busy man.
Speaker 2: So Jeff Shackelford wants to know you're the best piece
Speaker 2: of history slash memory Omphelia you've found on your hunts.
Speaker 3: Well, all right, so you know many of your listeners
Speaker 3: and all this stuff they don't know. You know, maybe
Speaker 3: a lot about me and and probably that's a good thing.
Speaker 3: But Okay, so I'm a golf course architect, and but
Speaker 3: I've always liked antiques and collectibles and things like this.
Speaker 3: But but I love the game of golf obviously too.
Speaker 3: So when in two thousand and you know, as I
Speaker 3: was going through my career, I started trying, you know,
Speaker 3: somebody introduced me to golf architecture books, and I'm going, what,
Speaker 3: there's golf architecture books. And then I start trying to
Speaker 3: buy golf architecture books. And then it starts going on
Speaker 3: this exploration. And then I started trying to find golf
Speaker 3: balls and old golf balls, and golf clubs and old
Speaker 3: golf clubs, and so you put all this stuff together,
Speaker 3: and I started buying this or that or finding this
Speaker 3: or that. Well I happened. What I thought was one
Speaker 3: of the coolest things I found and got was Harry
Speaker 3: Colet's personal scrap book. And Harry Colet was so proud
Speaker 3: of Country Club at Detroit and when it held the
Speaker 3: US Amateur I think in nineteen fifteen or nineteen fourteen
Speaker 3: or fifteen. He kept a scrap book of everything that
Speaker 3: happened on his first voice to the United States, and
Speaker 3: he brought his wife and it has his tickets and
Speaker 3: it had all of his information on what he ate
Speaker 3: and where he stayed and what he thought and pictures
Speaker 3: and everything else. And I found that scrap book and
Speaker 3: I had that scrap book for a number of years
Speaker 3: and it was just so wonderful because it was just
Speaker 3: so insightful to Harry Colt. So I have, you know,
Speaker 3: the first piece of letterhead that was Colt, Alison, Morrison
Speaker 3: and Mackenzie and it was all part of that scrap book,
Speaker 3: and I just thought it was just so fantastic to have.
Speaker 3: And then the other thing that I found, which is
Speaker 3: really great is there's this old golf club called the
Speaker 3: Royal you know, Thistle Golf Club and it was founded
Speaker 3: in eighteen nineteen. And I got a receipt that they
Speaker 3: paid a greens keeper keeper of the greens for his
Speaker 3: annual salary. And I got that receipt of his is
Speaker 3: you know, actual payment for the course of a year,
Speaker 3: you know, while he was keeping the greens at Discle
Speaker 3: Golf Club, which was really incredible.
Speaker 2: That's a that'd be a fun thing to just to
Speaker 2: get to thumb through that cult scrap book.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's incredible. And you know, I still have a
Speaker 3: lot of great old golf stuff, and you know, I
Speaker 3: just love it. I love the history of the game,
Speaker 3: and I love the charm of the game.
Speaker 1: That's that's why. That's why you love the restoration so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, it's I always liked history class, which
Speaker 2: is I think why I like this stuff.
Speaker 1: So much when I was growing up.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll do one more question here. Pat Craig says,
Speaker 2: you're working on Golden Valley up in Minnesota. How does
Speaker 2: it stack up with the other Tillies that you've worked on.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, ironically, ironically, I was at Golden Ball
Speaker 3: on Monday, right, and Golden Valley is really really an
Speaker 3: interesting golf course, and I didn't really know a whole
Speaker 3: lot about it, and then I get the opportunity and
Speaker 3: the privilege to go meet with them and and and
Speaker 3: what's interesting about it is that it's a typical because
Speaker 3: you know, you have this this you know, Tilling has
Speaker 3: gem consider this Golden Valley, you know, is you know
Speaker 3: in Minneapolis, and uh, Killing has does one golf course
Speaker 3: Rochester in Minnesota. Right, However, Killing has has relatives in
Speaker 3: Minneapolis and Golden Valley convinced Tilling has to go there
Speaker 3: to take a look at this piece of property. And
Speaker 3: the only reason that Tilly does it, of course, is
Speaker 3: he has family there, which is fantastic because now he
Speaker 3: gets to see his family. So Tilly routes masterfully an
Speaker 3: incredible routing on this difficult piece property. Right, so it
Speaker 3: has it has perimeter roads all around it. It has
Speaker 3: an interior perimeter road and a railroad track running through it.
Speaker 3: And Bendalo does a golf course originally in nineteen fourteen
Speaker 3: or nineteen sixteen. There Chilly comes there in nineteen twenty
Speaker 3: six re routes it, expands it and does eighteen holes,
Speaker 3: and he creates an incredible routing on this awkward, disjointed
Speaker 3: piece of property. And then over time, over sixty seven years,
Speaker 3: like many great wonderful old golf courses, trees get planted,
Speaker 3: architects come in. You know, people do more things than
Speaker 3: they should and not enough of what they should do,
Speaker 3: and so Golden Valley sits like this. And so initially
Speaker 3: when I go to Golden Valley, I I come in
Speaker 3: the night before and I just drive around, not the
Speaker 3: golf course, but around the perimeter, and the night before,
Speaker 3: all I'm seeing is all those roads and all the issues,
Speaker 3: and then I, you know, I go to the hotel
Speaker 3: room and I just sleep on it. The next morning,
Speaker 3: I walk into the golf course and I start walking it,
Speaker 3: and then and then I start seeing what Tilly did,
Speaker 3: and I am just blown away by how good it
Speaker 3: can be. And so I just look at it, and
Speaker 3: I suddenly forgot about all the other external things and
Speaker 3: I just focused on what Chilly did. And it's really good.
Speaker 3: And now, of course I can see it, and now
Speaker 3: we're presenting it to the you know, to the to
Speaker 3: the board and the committee first before we present it
Speaker 3: to the membership. But I am so excited about that.
Speaker 3: And and what was really good about it is that
Speaker 3: usually I just create a plan, a master plan, to
Speaker 3: take them to where they want to go. But what
Speaker 3: I did is I took a look at Tilly's old
Speaker 3: plan and I took I was so excited out to
Speaker 3: Tilly and what he did on it and the Tilly plan,
Speaker 3: but I took our master plan and I then went
Speaker 3: back and created what Tilly created. And so I've got
Speaker 3: this really great Tilly plan for Golden Valley, which is
Speaker 3: what he did plus what we're going to do, and
Speaker 3: we have this incredible opportunity there. I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 3: They are so nice there and so trusting, and you know,
Speaker 3: I'm really thankful to be there. So it's going to
Speaker 3: be pretty exciting to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Minnesota.
Speaker 2: People are just so nice and it's an interesting golf
Speaker 2: town because they had Ross do work there.
Speaker 1: They had Rainer up there, they had.
Speaker 2: Tilly, they had William Watson, like they had all these
Speaker 2: great architects in the doing, you know, work at various courses.
Speaker 1: It's got a ton of variety.
Speaker 3: It really does. And you are so right, Andy, However,
Speaker 3: and this is what I was saying the Golden Valley
Speaker 3: that yes, there are all these notable architects that have
Speaker 3: done some really really good golf courses there. However, if
Speaker 3: you look at the pedigree of courses that Tilly's done, right,
Speaker 3: I mean you can, Okay, Ross is really talented. Clearly
Speaker 3: Rainers really talented. Look at their work. But look at
Speaker 3: the list of courses that have endoored that are Tilly.
Speaker 3: It's okay. And now you look at gold it is unbelievable.
Speaker 3: So now you look at and that's the thing that's
Speaker 3: the genius and the charm of Tilly. So now you
Speaker 3: look at you look at Golden Valley and look what
Speaker 3: they have ready to be polished and reset. It's incredible.
Speaker 2: I would add it's remarkable to look at the entire
Speaker 2: Philly School of Architecture because Flynn is a similar where
Speaker 2: he had. You know, he has so many courses that
Speaker 2: have endured the test of time. George Thomas, you know,
Speaker 2: with the courses he did on in la you know,
Speaker 2: obviously Marion Is and then Oakland, but those guys that
Speaker 2: did all that collaborative work in Philadelphia, all of them
Speaker 2: have you know, so many great golf courses still today.
Speaker 3: And you know, and isn't isn't that the truth? And
Speaker 3: that's a great observation. And I wish I could say, now, look,
Speaker 3: I'm from Philadelphia. Now I'm from the wrong side of Philadelphia.
Speaker 3: I'm from South Philly, and all those other golf courses
Speaker 3: are in the Posh neighborhood. But you know, that is
Speaker 3: one thing that when I got the opportunity to go
Speaker 3: to Philly Cricket, I'm going, my gosh, I'm from South Philly.
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to big time Philly now and
Speaker 3: I get a chance to work on tilling Haass golf course.
Speaker 3: I so want to honor Philadelphia architecture. And you know,
Speaker 3: George Thomas was a member at Philly Cricket with Tilling half.
Speaker 3: So that's why I was just so excited to be
Speaker 3: given that opportunity. And I just wanted to make sure
Speaker 3: that what I did was honoring to Tilly Philadelphia School
Speaker 3: of Architecture. And you know where I'm from.
Speaker 2: That's that's really cool. It's say, a getting to do
Speaker 2: stuff in your hometown is awesome. It's all right, we
Speaker 2: do this overrated underrated segments. It's quick, it's you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, give you a couple topics and you tell
Speaker 2: me if it's overrated or underrated.
Speaker 1: All right, no proper.
Speaker 3: War and if I hey, hey, and if I don't
Speaker 3: want to hurt anybody's feelings, I'll just say I don't
Speaker 3: want to comment.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we don't usually allow that.
Speaker 2: You know, we've allowed We've allowed one or two properly
Speaker 2: rated in the history.
Speaker 1: Of overrated underrated.
Speaker 2: Okay, the use of grass hollows from the one bearded golfer.
Speaker 3: Oh, I hate them. I think there I just don't
Speaker 3: even see the charm in them, you know, no, I
Speaker 3: don't see it. Overrated, Yeah, very very overrated.
Speaker 2: El Dinarino says us opens at modern venues.
Speaker 3: That's just a clueless thing. I think that's so overrated.
Speaker 3: And my gosh, look at look at the results last
Speaker 3: two or three.
Speaker 2: We're on the same pace here. Green to Tea like
Speaker 2: connections from Ben Hogan camp.
Speaker 3: Okay, I love them. Okay, So I think I think
Speaker 3: what's great about that is, look, if you have a
Speaker 3: close Green to Tea connection, I mean green fir t
Speaker 3: is really there, instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I
Speaker 3: love to connect it so that I'm showing that you're
Speaker 3: going from one room right into the next room. I
Speaker 3: think it's really really good. Now, you don't want to
Speaker 3: do it where it's forced or there's too much room,
Speaker 3: But if it's tight close I connect.
Speaker 2: Gotta do it, and you gotta have it consistent. You
Speaker 2: can't just do it once right.
Speaker 3: Well Yeah, I mean, okay, so Andy, you saw marine.
Speaker 3: How cool is those? How cool are those Green Keey connections?
Speaker 2: They're amazing and anybody can see it. I've I've got
Speaker 2: a review. I got like hundreds of photos in that thing.
Speaker 2: So that course, I'll tell you what though, we had
Speaker 2: to walk thirty six in that USAM qualifier.
Speaker 1: Huh that was a bear.
Speaker 3: Well you know, yeah, yeah, well you know. And I
Speaker 3: did a couple of green tea connections at Philly Cricket.
Speaker 3: In truth, I'm on a mission where I'm trying to
Speaker 3: return golf to close green tea relationships. So like when
Speaker 3: I played Saint Andrews, you know, you go from one
Speaker 3: green right to two t I love that where you're
Speaker 3: in the game, and that's where I think the game
Speaker 3: is in terms of charm. If you can get right
Speaker 3: off the green, go right onto the tee and go,
Speaker 3: I think that's it. It promotes walking too, it does,
Speaker 3: and that's what I'm trying to do. And and I
Speaker 3: just want to reintroduce that. So at Golden Valley we're
Speaker 3: going to introduce it. And Moraine clearly, we did Philly Cricket,
Speaker 3: we did Baltimore. So you know, Marine passionate about that.
Speaker 2: Speaking of major or like Major Champion, Marine needs like
Speaker 2: a Senior Open because that place is unreal and it's
Speaker 2: such a good test.
Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, I absolutely agree, and it could hold it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there are usam it rained, So it was
Speaker 2: a little soft and only one one score, one eighteen
Speaker 2: hole score was under part.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean and and by the way, that
Speaker 3: club didn't say to me, Keith, we need to get
Speaker 3: more yardage. But when I never really thought about trying
Speaker 3: to pull it back further because they just didn't need
Speaker 3: to do it. But it's it's a lot of golf,
Speaker 3: and it's a great golf course and a great membership
Speaker 3: and great people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were really nice there.
Speaker 2: If you know, if they had, if they tried to
Speaker 2: do a pro event, they'd have to move Tea's on
Speaker 2: nine and seventeen back because like Dustin Johnson could just
Speaker 2: fly those those ridges, those agreed, Those are great little
Speaker 2: subtle design things that they did there, or you did,
Speaker 2: I don't know who did.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually I actually did it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are like those ridges that just they just
Speaker 2: killed the long him.
Speaker 1: And I hit him right into it, they'd go nowhere.
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, yeah, and that's you know, and
Speaker 3: I learned that years ago, which is if I can
Speaker 3: get you know, a strong ball to hit into the upslope,
Speaker 3: you know, and take the heat off the ball, that's
Speaker 3: key and you know, I finally learned that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I thought it.
Speaker 2: Was one of the better subtle things that I saw
Speaker 2: on a course this year. So I'm a fan. Last
Speaker 2: one from Joseph rolling the ball back underrated, overrated, This is.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you know, you know, oh, isn't it?
Speaker 3: Isn't it terrible? Where our game is going? Where you know,
Speaker 3: people are now talking about eight thousand yard golf courses
Speaker 3: just so that the pros you know, can hit, you know,
Speaker 3: to force them to hit five irons or three irons
Speaker 3: into holes. So you know, the pros play a different
Speaker 3: game than we do, and you're going to roll the
Speaker 3: ball back. It's impossible, you know, for our game to
Speaker 3: continue the way it is.
Speaker 2: It's just it's I hit it pretty far. I'm not
Speaker 2: like Dustin Johnson, but I was like I played our
Speaker 2: stadium this year and I was like kind of like
Speaker 2: sickend because of how many wedges I hit. And it's
Speaker 2: just like I I didn't have to h do anything
Speaker 2: but hit driver wedge and it's like that's not off.
Speaker 3: It isn't. And yeah it's still on darts, it's it's
Speaker 3: but we'll.
Speaker 1: See what happens.
Speaker 2: So hopefully we'll just start our own revolution, you know,
Speaker 2: like your backyard.
Speaker 3: Nine hole cours. Yeah, I know, I wish it was
Speaker 3: that simple. The problem is there's so much money in
Speaker 3: the game, and you know what's happening is that everybody's
Speaker 3: trying to do what's right for everybody and at the
Speaker 3: expense of our game.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 2: You know, they they still sell balls, but yeah, it
Speaker 2: wouldn't be you know, all the research and development money
Speaker 2: that they already poured into next year's ball would be gone.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I think they are mad about.
Speaker 1: But they'd be up in arms about.
Speaker 2: So with that note, you know, on a getting off
Speaker 2: on a somber note, which you know is only fitting
Speaker 2: because you're you've been so positive.
Speaker 1: That's the end. So thanks for coming on.
Speaker 3: Well Andy, thank you so much for giving me the
Speaker 3: opportunity to talk with you and a little bit about
Speaker 3: my work. And I'm so thankful that you would, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, want to talk with me and allow me
Speaker 3: to you know, just talk about what I do.
Speaker 2: Hey, you always have an open invite, so you know,
Speaker 2: if you want to, you guys, something to get off
Speaker 2: your chest, send me an email.
Speaker 1: We'll get your back on.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you again for you know, paying attention to
Speaker 3: some of the work that I'm doing. And you know,
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about the work I'm doing right now
Speaker 3: and what I've got going on for next year and
Speaker 3: the year after, and I've got three or four years
Speaker 3: work out ahead of me, and I'm really quite excited
Speaker 3: about it. So thank you, and and I hope to
Speaker 3: have the pleasure of meeting you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, let me know when you're going to
Speaker 1: be up in Minnesota. It's not that far from here.
Speaker 3: Sounds perfect. I love it. I'd love to host you
Speaker 3: and show you how special Golden Valley's going to be awesome.
Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk soon and have a have a good
Speaker 1: holiday season.