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Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in.

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Speaker 2: A brid egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Friday,

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Speaker 2: Frida Bride Egg Lie.

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Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

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Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the

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Speaker 2: Friday Podcast. Today, I welcome on Keith Foster, a golf

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Speaker 2: course architect who has done many beautiful restoration of classic

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Speaker 2: golf courses across the country and also has built up

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Speaker 2: an impressive list of solo designs.

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Speaker 1: Keith, welcome up.

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Speaker 3: Hey, thanks so much Andy for having me. It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, excited.

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Speaker 2: You know talk Golden Age architecture, some of your architecture.

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Speaker 2: I grew up playing Shepherd's Crook, one of your design

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Speaker 2: your public designs, and it's, as I call it, the Crook.

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Speaker 2: I think it's one of the best courses in Chicagoland

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Speaker 2: that anybody can play. But to kick things off, you know,

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Speaker 2: two of your most dramatic restorations that I've seen are

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Speaker 2: Philly Cricket Club and Marine Country Club, and each of

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Speaker 2: them you've you've taken out quite a few trees, and

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Speaker 2: I would I'm curious what you find to be the

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Speaker 2: biggest misconception with memberships, committees and just golfers in general

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Speaker 2: about trees.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I think, I think Andy, what really

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Speaker 3: happens on trees is that, you know, every golf course,

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Speaker 3: I don't care how old it is or how new

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Speaker 3: it is, there comes a time when someone's going to say,

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Speaker 3: we could put a tree here, we could put a

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Speaker 3: tree there. And older golf courses they fell victim to.

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Speaker 3: You know, when RTJ mister Jones was the man, the

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Speaker 3: open doctor in the fifties, you know, for US open

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Speaker 3: sites and so on, all these trees got planted. And

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Speaker 3: then Lady Bird Johnson in the sixties through arbor days

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Speaker 3: and so on. So all of these golf courses initially

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Speaker 3: started out not heavily treed, and then over time, you know,

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Speaker 3: trees get planted here and there. And I think what's

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Speaker 3: interesting is most old school golf golf courses tend to

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Speaker 3: be wider in scale, because of course you have wider fairways,

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Speaker 3: you set bunkers on angles, and the game becomes and

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Speaker 3: should be a more strategic one. But then when trees

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Speaker 3: get planted in the fifties and they're small, and the

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Speaker 3: sixties are small, and all of a sudden, the trees

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Speaker 3: start growing, and it's a slow grow, but it starts

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Speaker 3: encroaching into the golf And then suddenly the ways start

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Speaker 3: moving and shifting away from the trees, and then golf

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Speaker 3: fairways start getting narrower. And so ultimately what happens is

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Speaker 3: that the golf course, many golf courses, are just skeletons

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Speaker 3: of what they used to be in terms of scale

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Speaker 3: and impact and strategy, so much so that like a

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Speaker 3: golf course like Moraine Wonderful Charming golf course, or Philly

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Speaker 3: Cricket for that matter, most charming great old school clubs,

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Speaker 3: they change the characteristics of their golf course and they

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Speaker 3: become narrow. I call it almost like bowling. Look, golf

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Speaker 3: is a strategic game. Bowling, you know you're in a

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Speaker 3: narrow lane. And I think dimension is really important in

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Speaker 3: the game of golf. And so you know, I don't

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Speaker 3: really think you can get great restorations renovation work, and

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Speaker 3: I don't think you can return back to something really

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Speaker 3: truly epic unless tree removal is part of it. So

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Speaker 3: if a club is focusing on greens, bunkers, and tees,

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Speaker 3: and they're not really looking at trees. I think they're

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Speaker 3: short sighted.

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Speaker 2: It seems like, you know, the trees have to come

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Speaker 2: down first, because then when you expand the greens, the

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Speaker 2: edges make all the more sense with the wider fairways.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, that's exactly right, and so you know, so

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Speaker 3: so often, you know, everyone focuses on green surrounds, bunkers,

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Speaker 3: and tees because those are the features, and those are

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Speaker 3: the features. But I think the missing component is scale,

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Speaker 3: and scale creates great golf. And you know, there was

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Speaker 3: this big movement towards twenty six yard wide fairways because

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Speaker 3: we all see them at the US Open, and oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, for the tour players, we've got to create

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Speaker 3: tight hitting areas. But you know, for the majority of us,

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Speaker 3: you know, we need wider areas to play golf. And

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Speaker 3: even so, the game is a game of options rather

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Speaker 3: than these narrow boundaries. And I think the game of

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Speaker 3: golf is wonderfully compelling when it has options, and we

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Speaker 3: as golfers, have options so that we can, you know,

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Speaker 3: enjoy a more flexible game of golf.

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Speaker 2: It is a lot of these courses especially the classic

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Speaker 2: golf courses when they hosted these major champions chips. It

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Speaker 2: was in the thirties, the forties, the fifties before all

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Speaker 2: this tree you know planting happened. So their best self

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Speaker 2: was actually when they had the fewest trees.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and then of course when in the fifties and

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Speaker 3: sixties and seventies and eighties, we see all these national

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Speaker 3: championships being held on for the most part, tree line

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Speaker 3: golf courses. So everyone who's looking at golf on television

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Speaker 3: or or you know, visiting these these big iconic golf

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Speaker 3: courses with trees both left and right, everyone comes back,

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Speaker 3: club members, board members, committee members, club presidents and go,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, look what this course has. Then they're

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Speaker 3: doing it right because they're hosting major championships. So we've

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Speaker 3: got to do that. And then, you know, something so

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Speaker 3: innocent and so respectful of the game, you know, dramatically

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Speaker 3: changes your golf course, and it changes it so slowly

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Speaker 3: over time that you just lose sight of what you had.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I think, you know, return of scale

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Speaker 3: and tree programs are so important, you know, to recapturing

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Speaker 3: the essence of the game of golf.

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Speaker 1: The effect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sam Joe member of my club, or Sam

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Speaker 2: guy with a permanent tea time at a you know,

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Speaker 2: overgrown municipal course. What and I And you know, these

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Speaker 2: are readers or listeners of the of the podcast that understand,

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Speaker 2: you know, they need to cut down trees. What do

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Speaker 2: you think is the best way, since it's such a

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Speaker 2: sensitive topic to go about, you know, getting people on

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Speaker 2: board with getting rid of trees.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, so many, so many times everyone starts

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Speaker 3: keying in on the controversial trees, the ones that will

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Speaker 3: have true impact on holes. I tend not to suggest

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Speaker 3: doing that, you know, because I think what happens is

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Speaker 3: that memberships are golf course, you know, guys who play,

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Speaker 3: men and women, you know, need to understand the benefits

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Speaker 3: of tree removal. So instead of I don't usually attack

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Speaker 3: the big controversial trees first, I try to you know,

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Speaker 3: if there's fifty trees down the left side of one

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Speaker 3: of whole one, and there's one hundred and fifty trees

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Speaker 3: down the right side of whole one, what I'm going

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Speaker 3: to suggest is first taking the weak trees out, you know,

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Speaker 3: and there will be weak trees both left and right,

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Speaker 3: and I just suggest taking the weaker trees out to

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Speaker 3: create space, a little bit of space, and then what

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Speaker 3: you'll find is no one has any issues with any

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Speaker 3: of that. And then then you're able to push it

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Speaker 3: a little further and say, okay, look we're going to

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Speaker 3: take every fifth tree out here and every seventh tree

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Speaker 3: out there. And so suddenly this golf course starts opening

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Speaker 3: up softly. And then when people start buying into the idea,

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, this does look better. We have more

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Speaker 3: space to play golf, we have different views vistas. Then

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Speaker 3: I think you've got people on board and there'll be

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Speaker 3: a time to take controversial trees down. But I think

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Speaker 3: so many clubs focus on that one ty tree. Oh

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Speaker 3: my gosh, you know, that's the tree we've got to

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Speaker 3: focus on. I tend to do it the other way,

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Speaker 3: and I believe a softer approach is a better approach

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Speaker 3: in a lot of cases.

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Speaker 2: Get rid of those evergreens that are just you know,

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Speaker 2: random place next to a tea box.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of kind of your overarching you know,

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Speaker 2: restoration process, and we'll talk a little bit about you know,

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Speaker 2: restoration since we started with trees, and then we'll get

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Speaker 2: into your solo work. But how does you know the

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Speaker 2: the restoration process start from you know, when you first

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Speaker 2: meet with say a club, to when you start doing

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Speaker 2: work and overtime getting closer to a finished project.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So you know, for me personally, I'm more of

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Speaker 3: a relationship person. So you know, when I come in

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Speaker 3: to visit a club, you know, I'm you know, I

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Speaker 3: want to spend you know, the whole day out on

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Speaker 3: the golf course, and I want to go around the

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Speaker 3: golf course. I don't want to walk it quietly if

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Speaker 3: I want to spend time with the super tendant. And

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Speaker 3: I want to understand the golf course right, so I

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Speaker 3: have a general understanding of it, But the key on

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Speaker 3: it is, you know, one, I need to have an understanding. Two,

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Speaker 3: I need to love the golf course. And I need

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Speaker 3: to see the possibilities as far as what it can be,

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Speaker 3: not what it is, but what it can be and

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Speaker 3: what it should be. So I need to have those

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Speaker 3: things in my head and truthfully in my heart. And

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Speaker 3: then I need to then meet with the committee or

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Speaker 3: the board that I'm going to be meeting with, a

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Speaker 3: group of golfers that I'm going to be meeting with,

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Speaker 3: and really, I just want to listen to them a

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Speaker 3: little bit, and then eventually they're going to say to me, Keith, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what do you think? And I'm just going to say, Okay,

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Speaker 3: this is what I think, and this is what I

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Speaker 3: think you should be doing, and this is how I

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Speaker 3: believe you could get it accomplished. And then I'm going

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Speaker 3: to look at their reactions to what I'm saying. And

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, I'm a good read generally on

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Speaker 3: people only because I pay attention, and you know, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to look at them and you know, they're either

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Speaker 3: going to look at me and go, guy, Keys, he's clueless,

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Speaker 3: or you know, what he's saying makes sense. And then

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Speaker 3: based on my relationship with them and their relationship to me,

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Speaker 3: you know, it either affirms or confirms that I shouldn't

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Speaker 3: should or shouldn't be there. And that's key because ultimately

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be forming a close relationship with these

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Speaker 3: people that I'm going to be working with. They've got

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Speaker 3: to trust me and I've got to trust them, and

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Speaker 3: we're working on this thing together. And I like that

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Speaker 3: because I want to be part of something that's bigger

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Speaker 3: than me, that's important, and I understand the weight of it.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's the real key is that you know,

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Speaker 3: there's been so many golf courses that have been touched

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Speaker 3: too heavy handedly, and so what happens is the work

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Speaker 3: either doesn't endure or doesn't have value. And I'm just

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Speaker 3: very mindful that I want to produce stuff. I want

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Speaker 3: to produce work that is enduring, that you know, stands

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Speaker 3: a test of time, that is timeless, that is classic,

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Speaker 3: that you know, honors and respects the courses that I

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Speaker 3: work for and who I work for to so so

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Speaker 3: it's all based on relationships, Katie.

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Speaker 2: How much how much time do you do a lot

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Speaker 2: of work before you even go there studying you know,

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Speaker 2: say old aerols or or you know, I mean, how

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Speaker 2: much of this job when you're doing a restoration as

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Speaker 2: being like a historian.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I don't before I go anywhere, I don't study

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Speaker 3: their course, I don't look at maps. I don't really care,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I know that's going to be very

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Speaker 3: shocking to maybe you even And I'm not looking at

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Speaker 3: a golf course as an archaeological dig. You know, what

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Speaker 3: I want to do is okay, if it's a tilling

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Speaker 3: has golf course, I understand the characteristics of tilling Has.

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Speaker 3: If it's a Ross course, I understand the characteristics of Ross.

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Speaker 3: If it's Allison, I understand the characteristics of Alison. If

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Speaker 3: it's Maxwell, I understand the characteristics of Maxwell. So I

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Speaker 3: inherently already have a foundation. And that foundation I have

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Speaker 3: is pretty strong. So I don't need to see what

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Speaker 3: they did here or there. I need to see it

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Speaker 3: in the ground, and I need to feel it in

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Speaker 3: the ground, and then I can see what happened and

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Speaker 3: what's missing. If I spend a full day out on

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Speaker 3: a golf course, and I would probably say if a

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Speaker 3: golf architect can't do that, the club probably shouldn't hire him,

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, so I can see it, and

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Speaker 3: I think in the end, I just want to talk

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Speaker 3: with people about what they want, what I believe possible,

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Speaker 3: and how we work together on it. Now, if I

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Speaker 3: am the right guy and I am part of it,

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Speaker 3: then I will extra every aerial, every image, everything that

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Speaker 3: I can, so that I have a foundation most importantly

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Speaker 3: of what it was. And not only you know in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen thirty nine aeril, but I want to track

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Speaker 3: it in forty nine, fifty nine sixty nine seventy nine.

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Speaker 3: I want to be able to track what was done

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Speaker 3: and when it was done and why it was done,

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Speaker 3: so that I understand, you know, what really happened over

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Speaker 3: that eighty or ninety years. And that's equally important because

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Speaker 3: you need to be able to, you know, figure out

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Speaker 3: who did what, when they did it, when the trees

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Speaker 3: got added, what pa got added here and there. So

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Speaker 3: I'll study all of that once I'm hired, before I

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Speaker 3: craft my first plan.

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Speaker 2: And then the you know, the master plan, and then

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Speaker 2: it goes through iterations and you you know, you worked

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Speaker 2: a final product and then you start going on a timeline.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: So having worked on you know, you listed off a

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Speaker 2: hit list of you know, some of the greatest architects

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Speaker 2: of you.

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Speaker 1: Know, the Golden Age.

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Speaker 2: Which architect would you say that you've gained the most

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Speaker 2: appreciation for through their work like that, you you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe had one you know, thought of, but now that

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Speaker 2: you've gotten so in the weeds, you just really love like.

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Speaker 1: What they do.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know. I think what's interesting is that Alison

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Speaker 3: McKenzie was asked when he was at the pinnacle of

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Speaker 3: his career, why did he think Saint Andrew's is such

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Speaker 3: a sensational golf course. And you know, the comment was

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Speaker 3: made by him, which is he believed that Saint Andrew's

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Speaker 3: was as great as it is because he was convinced

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Speaker 3: that very little was known about golf architecture, and they

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Speaker 3: just kind of took it for what it was. And

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Speaker 3: I think sometimes we overanalyze all this enough, like, for instance, Moraine.

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Speaker 3: You know, if I mentioned to you Knipper Campbell and

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Speaker 3: all of your antique I'm sorry, your architectural guys who

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Speaker 3: love antique and crafted old kind of golf courses, they

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Speaker 3: would say, who in the world is Nipper Campbell. He's

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Speaker 3: not tilling Has, he's not Alice, and he's not Ross,

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Speaker 3: he's not Mackenzie, he's not Maxwell, he's not Rainer, So

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Speaker 3: how good is his golf course? But the truth is

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Speaker 3: Moraine was done by Knipper Campbell and it was a charming, wonderful,

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Speaker 3: well thought out golf course. And so you know, I

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Speaker 3: think what's exciting is, you know, to find these gems

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Speaker 3: that are off the radar, and that's the work that

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Speaker 3: I like to do most. I'd much rather take a

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Speaker 3: golf course that you know is is maybe a little

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Speaker 3: of an obscure gem and polish that and reset act

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Speaker 3: because it forces me to pay even more attention to

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Speaker 3: you know, the little nuances in the details, which I

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Speaker 3: really love.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I just finished right in my uh right up on

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Speaker 2: Marine actually this afternoon, and it's like, you know, Nipper,

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Speaker 2: you see so many of the guys that you know,

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Speaker 2: Nipper Campbell had a similar pedigree of a ross And

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Speaker 2: I think that golf course if you put, if you

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Speaker 2: attach a big name architect tech to it, it would

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Speaker 2: have been considered, you know, one of the you know,

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Speaker 2: greatest golf courses in you know, the mid Atlantic or

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Speaker 2: whatever you call Ohio Dayton, Ohio's region. But because it

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Speaker 2: doesn't have that name brand, it gets kind of hurt.

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Speaker 2: But you go there, and you know, I played my

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Speaker 2: USM qualifier there this year, and I mean I was

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Speaker 2: absolutely blown away getting to play it three times in

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Speaker 2: two days.

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Speaker 1: It was you know, you.

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Speaker 2: You gained such an appreciation and it still stands up today.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: And the principles were so simple they use He uses

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Speaker 2: the land so well there. But he's not a household name,

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Speaker 2: but he grew up playing you know, great Scottish courses

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Speaker 2: and then you know it was around great golf in America.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what's nice about that is I was able

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Speaker 3: to take the best qualities that Knipper Campbell did and

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Speaker 3: the areas where maybe I needed to improve or embellish,

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Speaker 3: I was able to do it without having to justify anything.

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Speaker 3: And and so I, you know, I was respectful of

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Speaker 3: Knipper Campbell, and more importantly, I was respectful of Moraine

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Speaker 3: and the ground. And then all I wanted to do

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Speaker 3: is just make sure that Nipper Campbell got the credit.

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Speaker 3: And then I just executed the work flawlessly or the

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Speaker 3: best I could. And then you know, highlight some of

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Speaker 3: the features that he did do and then insert other

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Speaker 3: elements that are similar or compatible to what he would

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Speaker 3: have done or should have done, and then I just

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Speaker 3: embellished them and executed it, you know, hopefully better than

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Speaker 3: he would have done it back in the day. And

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Speaker 3: you know that's what I try to do.

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Speaker 2: What what did you say, and what would you find

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Speaker 2: like that? What would you say his weakness was that

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Speaker 2: you kind of worked on the most.

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't you know, I don't think any golf architect.

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Speaker 3: You know, look when kill he built his golf course

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Speaker 3: back when let's say, or anybody years later, golf course

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Speaker 3: maintenance and practices and all these all of these things

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Speaker 3: that make golf courses now much better and tighter and

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Speaker 3: more enduring. You know, uh, there is no perfect person.

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Speaker 3: There's no perfect golf course architect. You know. Every golf

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Speaker 3: course architect you know produces work based on what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Killing has work has been improved

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Speaker 3: by people working on it and dialing the details in,

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Speaker 3: and Nipper Campbell's work is the same, you know. So

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Speaker 3: I don't really look when I'm working on people's projects

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Speaker 3: like a Maxwell or chilling House or Ross or Nipper Campbell.

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Speaker 3: I don't look at where their weaknesses are. I just

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Speaker 3: look at what they did and how can I take

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Speaker 3: what they did and make it better. So I don't

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Speaker 3: really look at flaws like my wife will say, my gosh, Keith,

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Speaker 3: you know you know about this person that person, And

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Speaker 3: I just don't hear anything negative. I don't see anything negative.

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Speaker 3: I don't hear anything negative, and I don't ever dwell

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Speaker 3: on negative. I just focus on how it can be

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Speaker 3: better and call it that, and then just try to

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Speaker 3: dial in my work and make it the best that

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Speaker 3: it can be.

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Speaker 1: See, I need to spend more time with you.

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Speaker 2: I go to so many you know, I see these

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Speaker 2: like especially municipal courses that are Golden age courses, and

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Speaker 2: you know all that's been done to them and how

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Speaker 2: they've been treated.

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Speaker 1: I just I get like, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Excited because they could be so good, but then I'm

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Speaker 2: just so sad about what they are.

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Speaker 3: Well, And I think what happens unfortunately with municipal golf

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Speaker 3: courses are that at least the best courses in the

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Speaker 3: country are able financially to hire the best golf architects

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Speaker 3: in the country to do the most sensitive work. Okay,

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Speaker 3: municipal golf courses, on the other hand, you know can't

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Speaker 3: take you know, they take the cheapest guy, the cheapest architect,

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Speaker 3: they take the cheapest contractor, and they expect great results

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Speaker 3: with such great limitations. So the truth is, you know,

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Speaker 3: they have no chance of being really great because you know,

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Speaker 3: they're they're picking fruit, the lowest hanging fruit. And that's

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Speaker 3: no that's no disrespect to the guys that are doing

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Speaker 3: the work. They're doing the best work that they can do.

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Speaker 3: But it's kind of like in my career, if I

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Speaker 3: you know, I believe I am doing my best work

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Speaker 3: ever right now now at thirty thirty five. When I'm

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Speaker 3: starting out, I'm doing the best work that I can.

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Speaker 3: Then I don't have the wealth of experience that I

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Speaker 3: do now and the weight of my work and my

374
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Speaker 3: eye and so even though I'm doing the best work

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Speaker 3: that I can at thirty thirty five, I'm probably doing

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Speaker 3: more than I should be. And I don't have the resources,

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Speaker 3: you know, and the appreciation of the game as I

378
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Speaker 3: do now. And every golf architect's the same way, so

379
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Speaker 3: we all have to start out a certain place. And

380
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Speaker 3: just like me, I mean I started, you know, I

381
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Speaker 3: played golf on am a municipal golf course because my parents,

382
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 3: we weren't country club people, So you know, I grew

383
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Speaker 3: up on a municipal golf course because we couldn't afford

384
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Speaker 3: anything better. And I learned playing golf on a municipal

385
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Speaker 3: golf course because that's all my family could afford. So

386
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Speaker 3: I come from that kind of grassroot as opposed to

387
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Speaker 3: a pedigree of you know, playing at you know, exclusive

388
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Speaker 3: private club.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

390
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I grew up playing the local muni

391
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Speaker 2: and it's amazing to me how many people that I

392
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Speaker 2: have on this podcast grew up, you know, playing the

393
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Speaker 2: local muny that get into golf and do you know,

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Speaker 2: big things, it's a municipal golf is it's such a

395
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Speaker 2: I've gotten wrapped up into it and it's been it

396
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Speaker 2: just it drives me nuts.

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Speaker 1: But then there's also.

398
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Speaker 2: Such a beauty to it of you know when you

399
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Speaker 2: see people out at a good municipal course.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right, I mean, and you know that's what's

401
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Speaker 3: so wonderful about our game. I mean, the game of

402
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,480
Speaker 3: golf is such an intriguing, captivating game, even at a

403
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: level at a municipal golf course, there's great charm in it,

404
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 3: and I think for most time, I believe it's actually

405
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: the simplest form and the nicest form of golf where

406
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 3: it's just not overdone, and I think, you know, there's

407
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 3: great joy in that and just being able to play

408
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Speaker 3: the game as opposed to expecting everything to be perfect.

409
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, I was gonna ask, you know, getting

410
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Speaker 2: into your solo designs, you know, one of the themes

411
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 2: I see when I look through them is that so

412
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Speaker 2: many of them are affordable under one hundred and hundred

413
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Speaker 2: and fifty dollars, grape spots and areas to play golf.

414
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Speaker 2: Is that something that you went into you know, the

415
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: design process with is you know, is building affordable golf?

416
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Speaker 3: Actually? No, you know, I wish I could say to

417
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Speaker 3: you Andy, oh yes, this was something that I wanted

418
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Speaker 3: to do when I carefully crapped in my career to

419
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Speaker 3: do that. The simple truth is, you know, when I

420
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Speaker 3: left art Hills to create my own firm, who was

421
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: going to hire me? So, you know, the jobs that

422
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 3: I could get were the jobs that I got. You know,

423
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Speaker 3: I believe that I get the work that I'm supposed

424
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Speaker 3: to get, and I don't get work that I'm not

425
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 3: supposed to get. So when I started my firm, sure,

426
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Speaker 3: you know, no really high end people that are going

427
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: to charge huge money are going to hire me. They're

428
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Speaker 3: going to go Fazio, Rhys Jones and art Hills, the

429
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 3: guy that I used to work for. You know, why

430
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: would they give me an opportunity? However, the municipal golf

431
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: courses would look at my background, my foundation, and my

432
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 3: fee is cheap. So I got an opportunity there. And

433
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Speaker 3: so when when I left art Hills to create my

434
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 3: own firm, you know the only work I could get

435
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 3: and the only work that was presented to me happened

436
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 3: to the municipal golf courses. And I started my career

437
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 3: and just trying to earn a living doing that. And

438
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: I felt very, very comfortable doing that because, you know,

439
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: and it just so happened that they were affordable golf

440
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 3: courses and that's where the game was, you know, at

441
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: that time. And then all of a sudden, right around

442
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: two thousand, something happened in my little career. And you know,

443
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 3: so for the first four or five years of my

444
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 3: career as a solo person, you know, in the late

445
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 3: nineties up to two thousand and two thousand and one

446
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 3: and two, the only work I was doing was daily

447
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: fee golf, municipal golf. And I really wasn't working on

448
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: renovation or restoration of golf courses. I was focusing on,

449
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 3: you know, public golf.

450
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: What change that you got over to the you know,

451
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: doing so many restorations. What was the kind of first

452
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: project or you know, shit turning.

453
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: Point, Well, two things happened to me. And the first

454
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: thing was, okay, so you know, I start my business.

455
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 3: I'm in my early thirties, and I'm doing some work

456
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 3: and everything's going great. I'm very thankful, I'm very happy.

457
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 3: All of it's good. And then a notable club calls

458
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 3: me and said, Keith, can you come out and take

459
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: a look at our golf course? And I said sure,

460
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 3: and you know it was it was a notable golf course, right,

461
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: And so my job was just to make sure that

462
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: what they were doing. I'm not rethinking their golf course.

463
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: I'm just making sure that what is going to be

464
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 3: done is going to be done well, you know, because

465
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: I do have a maintenance background. I do have a

466
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 3: construction background, you know, and I worked for Art Hills,

467
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 3: so you know, my foundation is pretty solid. But at

468
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 3: the same time, I go to Chicago and my mentor

469
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: takes me to Chicago and this is all around two thousand,

470
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,360
Speaker 3: thousand and one. And my mentor, who I have such

471
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 3: a great deal of respect for it is probably one

472
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: of the most talented men in the game of golf.

473
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: And you're most of the people that are going to

474
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: listen to your podcast don't even know his name, but

475
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: he is, you know, he is the most talented, soft spoken, articulate,

476
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 3: you know, gifted with you know, with a great eye

477
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 3: in the business and so I met him in Chicago

478
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 3: and we played two golf courses one day and two

479
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 3: golf courses the next day. We play Shore Acres in

480
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: Chicago golf one day, and then we play two other

481
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: big name golf courses. And I don't want to say

482
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: and the comment, you know, And then he said to me,

483
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 3: he said, okay, Keith, what do you think what's the difference?

484
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 3: And I said, well, I said, the first day we

485
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: played enduring classic architecture that was great and always will

486
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 3: be great. The second day we played something that's just

487
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: flash in the pan, that's just overrated and not enduring.

488
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 3: And he said, well, what do you think, Keith? And

489
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: I said, I don't want to do the latter. I

490
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 3: want to be part of only enduring work. And at

491
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: that time I returned home told my wife. I said, Pam,

492
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to take She said, Keith, what are you

493
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 3: gonna do? And I said, I'm going to take less

494
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 3: work and I'm going to focus more on making sure

495
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: if I work on any project that I'm committed to

496
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: great and I'm committed to enduring work, timeless work, seamless work.

497
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: And I broke my firm. I just broke my firm down,

498
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: and I said, I want to do great. How do

499
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: I do great? The only way I can do great

500
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: is spend more time than anybody else is on a job.

501
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: And I'm going to focus on details, and it's not

502
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 3: going to be about me. It's going to be about

503
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 3: the game of golf and great results.

504
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a quality over quiet. I have to

505
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 2: ask who's the mentor.

506
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 3: So my mentor was a gentleman by the name of

507
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: Brent Wadsworth from construction. Yes, and but the head of

508
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: head of Wadsworth is Brent Wadsworth, and Brent Wadsworth. Somehow,

509
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 3: when I'm twenty seven years old, I began working for

510
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: Wadsworth Company, and I had the good fortune that Brent

511
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: saw something in me and took an interest in me

512
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: and invested himself in me, and he taught me so much,

513
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: and I am just so thankful for him. And I mean,

514
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 3: I've worked for a lot of architects, and I've seen

515
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people do work, but you know, his,

516
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: I his attention to detail, his ability to communicate and

517
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 3: and do so in a soft way still to this day,

518
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 3: is just a marvel to me. And you know, I

519
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 3: recognized it then and years all these years later, which

520
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 3: is what you know, twenty five twenty years twenty five

521
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: years later, Yeah, twenty five years later, he's still you know,

522
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 3: he is my my baseline, and so I have a

523
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: long way to go to get to him, but you know,

524
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: just in terms of eye and talent and communication skills

525
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 3: and all that, but you know, he is my goal.

526
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Chicago is an interesting place for it

527
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: to happen because I mean, I'm from here, so I've

528
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: got a general idea of where I probably have an

529
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 2: idea of one of the courses.

530
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: I'm not positive on the second.

531
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 2: But yeah, short akers in Chicago golf are going to

532
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: be good for probably another one hundred or two hundred years.

533
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 3: Well, you know, look, whatever any of us do in

534
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: our careers, right, whatever it is, you know, if our work,

535
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 3: whatever we do, can endure, you know, no different than art, literature, music, whatever.

536
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: But if our work can endure and whatever we do,

537
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: you know, that's that really matters. I mean, you're doing

538
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 3: something that is meaningful and you're you know, what you're

539
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: doing has weight, and that's what I wanted to do.

540
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I don't want to be negative about

541
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: anybody's work and what was there. But what it did

542
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 3: is it gave me a look at what the difference was. Yes,

543
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 3: and you know, and I've always held to that, and

544
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: I was so thankful that Brent suggests that I come

545
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: to Chicago and you know, just did that and he

546
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: let me see the difference and I felt the difference,

547
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: saw the difference, and committed to the difference.

548
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: So you know, it was just changing gears a little.

549
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: That I'm curious when you get a course that has like,

550
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: you know, multiple architects throughout time, like so you know,

551
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: one that comes to mind in Chicago is like a

552
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: place like Skoky that's had you know, Donald Ross's work

553
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: on it, William Langford and Theodorma.

554
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: Rowe work on it.

555
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,959
Speaker 2: Like how do you go about places that have had

556
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 2: you know, change, you know a couple of times throughout

557
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: you know, their early years from you know, you know,

558
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: seemingly great architects.

559
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, like like for instance, Okay, Skokie.

560
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 3: I'm familiar with Skoky to a certain extent, but not

561
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 3: really because it's not my project and I didn't study

562
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: it and I didn't do it right. So but so

563
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 3: I can't really comment about that. However, like Philly Cricket,

564
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: for instance, killing has did the routing and William Flynn

565
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 3: came in three years later. Yep, So then I have

566
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 3: to extract what Tilly did and what Flynn did, and

567
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 3: you know, what had more merit and what was the

568
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: reason that Flynn was brought in. So for instance, when

569
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: Ross comes in and then Langford comes in at Skokey,

570
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,479
Speaker 3: why you know, you have to ask a question why

571
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: was Langford brought in? Yeah?

572
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: Now that is an example, but I figured you'd have,

573
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 2: you know, something else that would be similar.

574
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, So what happens there is there has to be

575
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: a reason why another architect was then brought in either

576
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 3: you know, either it was architectural, or it was maintenance

577
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 3: related or is construction related or you know, for instance,

578
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 3: with Langford and Moreau, how about they were based in Chicago.

579
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: So if Skokey you have Ross, who's not based in Chicago,

580
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: Ross does it the club has someone that they want

581
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 3: to turn to for other things like maybe adding a

582
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 3: bunker here, doing something else. Ringford and Moreau are in Chicago,

583
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 3: they seem to be the logical choice, right, So it

584
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 3: might be something as simple as that. However, on the

585
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 3: other hand, if you have one golf course by a

586
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 3: notable architect, you know, where it's really a problem is Okay,

587
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 3: Let's say, for instance, Skokie was there, and then you

588
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 3: had Ross and Langford Moreau, and then in the fifties

589
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: and sixties and seventies and eighties it was touched by

590
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: three other architects. Then you have to come back and say, okay,

591
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 3: what is meaningful and what are you going to strip back?

592
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 3: And in that regard, a lot of golf courses have

593
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 3: been obviously affected, you know, by many other architects, and

594
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: many other green committees and many other club presidents. So

595
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 3: I think in the end, golf course renovation, restoration, whatever

596
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: it is, sometimes you know, it's stripping away the work

597
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 3: that shouldn't have been done. And I think ultimately that's

598
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: what golf course renovation is, and sensitive restoration and renovation is.

599
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 3: You have to strip away what shouldn't have been done,

600
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 3: whether it's tree removal, t placement, angles fair away with

601
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 3: and even other architects. You know, I think most clubs,

602
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: you know, make the mistake that every architect, if you're

603
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: a golf architect, you're a golf architect and you're going

604
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 3: to get the same results with different architects. You're not,

605
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: you know, uh, you know, there's there's levels of expectations

606
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: and and and gifts and talents and so different golf

607
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 3: architects are going to see golf holes differently.

608
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 2: It's and the do It's like one of the beauties

609
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: of it is that you know, if you give you

610
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: get if you get thirty golf course architects one land

611
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: piece of land, you'll get thirty completely different you know works.

612
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: That's that's exactly right. However, one of you, one of

613
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 3: them is going to produce enduring work. That's the difference.

614
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 3: So let's say if you give a golf architect, you know,

615
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 3: thirty guys this piece of property and they produce it.

616
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 3: Of those thirty, how many are really going to produce

617
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: Depending on what thirty guys you ask, how many of

618
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 3: those thirty guys are going to produce enduring work, work

619
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: that will last. That's the key right there.

620
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: Well, it's like.

621
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: You probably could do a good amount of math from

622
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: how many bad courses there are and come to a

623
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: reasonable conclusion.

624
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 3: Agreed.

625
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: So Harry Richards.

626
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 2: One of our listeners, asked, what's been your most challenging restoration.

627
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I mean I really appreciate the question

628
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: on it. Yeah. I tend to think the most challenging

629
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 3: renovation of restoration that I'm working on at the time

630
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 3: is the most challenging one to me. Like every renovation

631
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 3: project or any restoration project has its own challenges, right,

632
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 3: I mean it really does, because everything is unique and

633
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 3: interesting and different, but for different reasons. Everyone has its

634
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: own challenge. Like Philly Cricket. Philly Cricket's challenge was, this

635
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: is Tilling has home course, Keith. This is me saying

636
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 3: it to myself, Keeth, you better not screw this up.

637
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 3: This is Tilling has Home Course. Okay. On the other hand,

638
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 3: Moraine Moraine hires me. My gosh, Keith, We've got to

639
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: produce something really, really strong because the club is, you know,

640
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 3: putting all this responsibility on me, and I don't want

641
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 3: to let them down. I want to honor them. I'm

642
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 3: working right now at a club called apple Wamas, the

643
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: Appowamas Club. It's quirky, it's funky, it's different. But this

644
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 3: thing is on and it's challenging. There's nothing easy about that.

645
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: So I think, really I just try to focus on

646
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 3: the work that I'm doing right then, and I recognize

647
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: that their challenges and I've got to solve them or

648
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 3: help solve them or be part of the solution. And

649
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: you know, I've had one or two that are easy, easier,

650
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 3: But you know, you have committees members that you've got

651
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: to exceed their expectations. You have budgets, you know that

652
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: you have to manage, you have timelines with different contractors.

653
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 3: And you know every golf architect he doesn't have the

654
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 3: same contractor doing the work, so you have to still

655
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: get great results with different contractors. And that's in itself

656
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: is its own challenge. So I think right now, I'm

657
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 3: working on three projects right now right and of the three,

658
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: the Applewamas Club is a greater challenge because it is

659
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 3: so difficul Everything about it is hard. But you know

660
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 3: last year's projects. You know, if I'm doing three in

661
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: a year, of those three, one of them is going

662
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 3: to be the most difficult, and then the other two

663
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: become a little easier because they're compared to the more

664
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 3: difficult one.

665
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously like having you know, some projects are bigger

666
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: than other projects, But is it just.

667
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 1: Do you think three is kind of your sweet spot.

668
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I try to do that. I mean, look,

669
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,399
Speaker 3: I could do more golf and I could do more work, right,

670
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 3: And the way I do more golf and more work

671
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 3: is I take more projects and I spend less time

672
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 3: on them. I mean really, that's what golf architects do.

673
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,959
Speaker 3: You take you get more work, and when you get

674
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: more work, what you're saying is to do more work,

675
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: I have to spend less time on the projects that

676
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 3: I get because you know, you only have so much time.

677
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 3: Like I work, you know, seventy to eighty hours a week.

678
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 3: That's how much I work. So if I'm working seventy

679
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 3: to eighty hours a week, I leave every Monday morning

680
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: five am, I get home Friday night at midnight, okay,

681
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 3: and then Saturday I'm drawing. Sunday I'm with my family. Okay.

682
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: But that's what I'm doing. And I can only handle

683
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: three programs at a time because the week can only

684
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 3: generate so many days. So I spend a day and

685
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 3: a half two days per project each week when I'm

686
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: doing them. So that's why three is, you know it.

687
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 3: I can't do any more than that, you know, because

688
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: there's just not enough time. And you know, that's how

689
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: much time I want to spend on the projects because

690
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 3: I want to produce great work.

691
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: That's what you said at the beginning. You want to

692
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: do less but do better work.

693
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's the crazy thing about architects and architecture.

694
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 2: You're you're like an unknown for a while, and then

695
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 2: you get popular and then you.

696
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: Have too much work. And you know, so you see

697
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: it all the time where sometimes people take on too.

698
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 2: Much and then they go back to doing little, and

699
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 2: it's it's a really it's an industry that's so different

700
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: than almost any.

701
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: Other profession.

702
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 3: And you're a spot on andy. And so my wife,

703
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: who is fantastic, she reminds me, Keith, you just need

704
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 3: to learn how to say no more. And and that's

705
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 3: hard because all of us want to please our clients.

706
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 3: But you know, I'm always reminded that I need to

707
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 3: get the work that is right for me. And that's why,

708
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 3: you know, I look at people and relationships and you know,

709
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 3: if they can trust me, if I can trust them,

710
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 3: and then together we work on something that is meaningful.

711
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 3: And then you know, these clubs are going to invest

712
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: their time and money right to try to get results

713
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: that are exceptional I'm giving part of my life to this,

714
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 3: so I've got to produce something really, really great because

715
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 3: you know, in the end, look, we all are going

716
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 3: to get paid, but the money is not The important

717
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 3: part is the results. It's the weight of our work

718
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 3: behind us. And so you know, I promise my wife,

719
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 3: my family, myself that I'm not going to take too

720
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: much work because in the end, I'm not measuring how

721
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 3: much work I'm doing. So it goes back to my

722
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 3: mentor when I went to Chicago. I'm trying to do

723
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 3: enduring work. I'm not trying to do more work. And

724
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 3: you know, you know my gauge is great, and I

725
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 3: just want to be part of great.

726
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: So do you get a lot of time to play?

727
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 3: Ever? You know I don't. And you know that's the

728
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 3: So any of your listeners that say, oh, I'd love

729
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 3: to be a golf architect, you can be a golf architect.

730
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: You just can't play because if you have time to

731
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 3: play and work on your game, you're not working on

732
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: your clients, and your clients are paying you so and

733
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: you're trying to establish a reputation not by playing but

734
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 3: by your work. So you know, I love the game

735
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: of golf. I think it's fantastic. I just don't have

736
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 3: the time to beat balls and to maintain a swing

737
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: that you know is notable. So when we lived in Kentucky,

738
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 3: I built a nine hole golf course on our farm

739
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: and it was a circa nineteen hundred golf course. So

740
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 3: you actually, you know, you would play with gut to

741
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 3: perch of balls and you would play it with smooth

742
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 3: face irons and long nose and it was so fantastic.

743
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 3: And and I could go outside our barn and I

744
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 3: could play it in forty five minute swing, and I

745
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 3: could you know, I could also play with big arm

746
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 3: you know, our big time clubs now. But you know

747
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 3: I could get back to the game, and I could

748
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 3: do that in a quick thing. You know, all of

749
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: us are struggling and fighting for time, and that's the

750
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 3: whole thing is. You know, we have all this technology,

751
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, and all this technology is great, but all

752
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 3: of us are starved for time. And so you know,

753
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: I'm the same way. And what what I'm giving up

754
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 3: is playing. And then maybe in ten years, you know,

755
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 3: I get the opportunity to go back and return to

756
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: playing the game. But right now, you know, I'm focused on,

757
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 3: you know, trying to do great work, so I don't

758
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 3: really get a chance to play much.

759
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

760
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 2: I mean I think that technology sucks the time to

761
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: make it like so much easier to do so much stuff,

762
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: but it just takes away the time.

763
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

764
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 2: So, uh, Josh Bill's asked this question, and I'm going

765
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: to just adapt it a little bit. But what is

766
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: the one course that you'd love to work on? And

767
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,760
Speaker 2: we're going to say that doesn't have a consulting architect

768
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: and we're going to make it, you know, say a

769
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 2: unique golf course that you've seen or stumbled across that

770
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 2: doesn't have you know, doesn't have a consulting architect, and

771
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: has the budget to let you do what you want.

772
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: Which one would it be?

773
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh? I mean look, okay, so every one

774
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: of your listeners either likes long you know, like if

775
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: I said to you, what kind of par four do

776
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,399
Speaker 3: you like? Some of your listeners and you may say,

777
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 3: I want a power part four where I can hit

778
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 3: this shot or have to hit that shot and so on. Okay,

779
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 3: I tend to go towards quirky, unique, charming kind of places,

780
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 3: maybe under the radar kind of places. So I like

781
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 3: things that are kind of lost gem and I like

782
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 3: things that are just a little off if you will,

783
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 3: you know, like if you if you look at a

784
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 3: mantle of your you know, above your fireplace, some people

785
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 3: will have two of something or it's perfectly balanced. I'm

786
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 3: more of an offset person, So I want something that's

787
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 3: just a little a little tattered, a little worn, that

788
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 3: hasn't been messed up too much. So you know, like,

789
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 3: for instance, there is this charming place called Myopia Hunt. Okay,

790
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 3: I would love to touch that place and not touch

791
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 3: it hard, but just to be exposed to something like that.

792
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I just love it. I just love the name,

793
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: I love its quirkiness. But if I could work on anything,

794
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 3: I would want to go to Swinley's Forest, the par

795
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 3: sixty nine golf course that Harry Colt did, and just

796
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: play in the bunkers and just I mean, you can't

797
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: improve that golf course, because the golf course is incredible,

798
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 3: but you could learn, you could play, you could study,

799
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 3: and you know, you could be within something that's really

800
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 3: quirky and great. And you know that's where I would

801
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 3: probably migrate towards. You know, it's just those really you know,

802
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 3: charming throwback clubs.

803
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of those in the Northeast.

804
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 2: Yes, And then I imagine it plays perfectly into Alistair

805
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: Philip's question, what's your top three in the UK?

806
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 1: And I assume Swinley would be in there.

807
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 3: It has to be. And you know, I mean, I

808
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 3: love golf in the UK. And when I would, you know,

809
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 3: play a lot. What I ended up doing every year

810
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 3: is I would do all my work in the year

811
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: and as sort as I finished my work, I would

812
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: take two weeks off and I would go to Scotland,

813
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: in Ireland or England and I would play for two

814
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: weeks and I played forty five fifty four holes today

815
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 3: and immerse myself into the game and then I would

816
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 3: come back rejuvenated to do it again. And I just

817
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 3: love that. And so, you know, I love golf in

818
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: the UK and then Scotland and Ireland because you know,

819
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 3: it's it's the game in the purest sense. Okay. But

820
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: in terms of architecture, I like quirky, so you know

821
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 3: in England, you know, I think I love cults work,

822
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,880
Speaker 3: and so I love Sunningdale. I love you know, Swinley forests.

823
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 3: I just think they're really, really exceptional and so I

824
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 3: love those two golf courses especially, but if I picked

825
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 3: one in England, it would probably be that. You know,

826
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: I love golf in Scotland, Saint Andrew's, you know, I

827
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,879
Speaker 3: think it's fantastic, But I love the charm of North

828
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 3: Berwick and it's just obscure and funky and a little

829
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 3: different and charming in its own way. And it's rough.

830
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 3: It's kind of almost as a feel of the municipal

831
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 3: golf course because it is so rough, you know, and

832
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 3: I like that. And then and you know, I just

833
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 3: you know, golf in Ireland. I mean, shoot, Port Rush

834
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 3: is incredible. Uh, you know, Port Rush is great. You know.

835
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 3: I I tend to kind of go towards that because

836
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: I just think it's really really neat. But Port Marnock

837
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 3: is neat, so you know. But if I could choose

838
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 3: three golf courses, I would probably just do all Harry

839
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: Colt courses, so and just go go all three.

840
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 2: So Harry Cole, he's he doesn't get talked about in

841
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: the US because you know, Allison did the most most

842
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,719
Speaker 2: of the work here, what you know, knowing both so well,

843
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: what was the difference between you know, how Alison built courses.

844
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 1: And how cold is well?

845
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 3: I think, what's yeah? You know, so Colt's work is

846
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 3: interesting and you know, so your listener would you know,

847
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,280
Speaker 3: he asked, well, what are the three in the UK?

848
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 3: And I would migrate, you know, if I could choose,

849
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 3: if I had to choose all three, I would say Colt.

850
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 3: I would say England and be good with that, and

851
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 3: probably all the courses in Surrey, England would probably be

852
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 3: my choice as opposed to even Scotland or Ireland. Okay,

853
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 3: but now Colt and Allison, so Colt, Okay, this is

854
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 3: here's the difference between you know, Harry Colt. So, when

855
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 3: asked about his best golf course, Harry Colt says, you know,

856
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 3: Swinley Forest is my least bad golf course. Okay. Now,

857
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 3: Swinley Forest is a really great golf course. But it

858
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 3: is so understated, it's so off the radar, it's so charming.

859
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,760
Speaker 3: It's just what golf should be, which is a great walk.

860
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 3: And I think that's really good. So I tend to

861
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: think that Harry Colt's work is softer placed in terms

862
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 3: of bunkering. There's more artistry in the bunkering.

863
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: And.

864
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 3: You know, it's just a bit more subtle. Okay, Now,

865
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 3: Alison when he comes over here, Alison is a tremendous talent.

866
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Colt was involved at Pine Valley.

867
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 3: Alison was also involved at Pine Valley, and to make

868
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 3: Pine Valley so special at Alison's work when he you know,

869
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 3: so he works for Colt, but Colt has his own philosophy.

870
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 3: Colt mentors Alison. Alison comes over here in the twenties.

871
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: All of the work that is Cold and Alison, for

872
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 3: the most part, is done by Alison. Alison creates teas

873
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 3: that are low to the ground. His green pads are big, giant, strong,

874
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: proud greens, and the bunkers are boldly cut underneath. So

875
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 3: there's less subtle tea in Alison's work, but it's bigger

876
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 3: landforms and you know, it's more impactful. So Colt was

877
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 3: more subtle, Alison was bolder in his presentation of golf

878
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 3: scale and otherwise. So there's the difference right there. You know. Basically,

879
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: you know, I grew.

880
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 2: Up working at Nola Club and Alison of course in

881
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 2: Chicago that I know you you worked on after my

882
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: time of working there, and uh you Nail, I mean

883
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 2: that's it's really bold with a big bunkering and raised

884
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: up greens and it's it's exactly how you described it.

885
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and it makes and it and it makes

886
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 3: sense because if you're Alison, right, think about this. If

887
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 3: if you're Alison and your mentor is cult and you're

888
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,360
Speaker 3: working for Colt, you know, you're not going to create

889
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: cult work. You're going to create work that is your own.

890
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: And and so he got away from that and that

891
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 3: became something really important to him, you know, when he

892
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 3: just perfected it through the twenties and then you know,

893
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 3: when the depression hits, he goes to Japan and he

894
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 3: creates some great golf courses in the thirties in Japan,

895
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 3: and and then and later in his years he goes

896
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 3: to Australia in the forties and you know, produces some

897
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 3: really great golf courses in Australia.

898
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

899
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: He might be the most worldwide traveled man.

900
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: I agreed.

901
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's surprisingly it's something changed obviously after the Golden

902
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 4: Age because Colet and Alison, you know, they were longtime partners.

903
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 2: They had Mackenzie and they all got their names on

904
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 2: the firm. You know, Morrison then comes in gets his

905
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: name on the firm. But now you see firms and

906
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 2: you know you'll have you know, say it's a Jones firm.

907
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 2: They have these project architects that don't get their names

908
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: on the firm, but do you know the design work,

909
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,040
Speaker 2: and it's kind of it.

910
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: It's weird how that shifted.

911
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 3: It is interesting, isn't it? And you know, so so

912
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 3: what you had right there is like, for instance, you

913
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 3: had Colt, Alison, Morrison and Mackenzie and really, what Colt

914
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 3: did you think about this when they had that partnership.

915
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 3: Colt is doing the work in England, Alison is doing

916
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 3: the work in eastern US and in the Midwest. Mackenzie

917
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 3: was doing the work out west. So they all had

918
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 3: regions or territories, which is really really you know, charming,

919
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 3: you know, But suddenly you know, here in the States

920
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 3: and US everything you know, we want, we want the notoriety.

921
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 3: And so what has happened is the game of golf. Well, look,

922
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 3: Tilling has you know you think about Tilling has Tilling

923
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 3: has had his guys, the Tilling has got the credit.

924
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 3: Ross had his guys and Ross got the credit. So

925
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 3: there is a more. Oh, I would probably say the

926
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 3: English are a softer breed, aren't they in terms of

927
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 3: you know, being able to give credit and a little

928
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 3: bit more accepting of those kind of things. But here

929
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,920
Speaker 3: in the States with tillinghas Ross and Jones and everybody else,

930
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: you know, we tend to, you know, the the name

931
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 3: you know gets the recognition. Just like when I worked

932
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 3: for Art Hills. You no, my job was to make

933
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 3: Art look the best he could make and be. It

934
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 3: wasn't about me. It was about making sure that who

935
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: I worked for was the star. And I was you know,

936
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 3: I'm in the line, on the line. He's a quarterback

937
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 3: and it's okay. You know, you have to invest and

938
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 3: put your time in there. But you know, it is

939
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: certainly different than you know Colet, Alison, Mackenzie and Morrison.

940
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: I wonder if that work, if you did that today,

941
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 2: if you you know, you put together you know guys

942
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 2: and said we're a firm that we cover all, you know,

943
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 2: any interesting concepts.

944
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 3: You know, I'd love that. I mean, truthfully, I think

945
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 3: it'd be fantastic. I think what you have to have

946
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 3: is the key on that whole thing is the guy

947
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 3: at the first name, Colt. Okay, so it goes back

948
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 3: to Colt, right, Colt said at Swinley Forest it is

949
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 3: my least bad golf course.

950
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

951
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 3: So Colt was a humble man, a quiet man, a

952
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 3: man of great subtlety and charm, and he didn't have

953
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 3: a really big ego. So you know, but if you

954
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 3: look at you know, some of the other you know,

955
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 3: maybe that just doesn't happen. So I think it started

956
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: with cult personally, like right now in my career, I

957
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 3: would love to do that because I hope that I'm

958
00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,680
Speaker 3: becoming a better person, and you know, I would love,

959
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: you know, to do something like that. So Andy, you've

960
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 3: got some guys with some great talent.

961
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: I'd love to do it, all right, I'll uh, I'll

962
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 1: send them your way. I think law firms do it.

963
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: You know, it makes a lot of sense. We got

964
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: a couple of other really good questions that I want

965
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: to get to. I don't want you. You're a busy man.

966
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: So Jeff Shackelford wants to know you're the best piece

967
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: of history slash memory Omphelia you've found on your hunts.

968
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 3: Well, all right, so you know many of your listeners

969
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 3: and all this stuff they don't know. You know, maybe

970
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 3: a lot about me and and probably that's a good thing.

971
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,680
Speaker 3: But Okay, so I'm a golf course architect, and but

972
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 3: I've always liked antiques and collectibles and things like this.

973
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 3: But but I love the game of golf obviously too.

974
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 3: So when in two thousand and you know, as I

975
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 3: was going through my career, I started trying, you know,

976
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 3: somebody introduced me to golf architecture books, and I'm going, what,

977
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 3: there's golf architecture books. And then I start trying to

978
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 3: buy golf architecture books. And then it starts going on

979
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 3: this exploration. And then I started trying to find golf

980
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 3: balls and old golf balls, and golf clubs and old

981
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 3: golf clubs, and so you put all this stuff together,

982
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 3: and I started buying this or that or finding this

983
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 3: or that. Well I happened. What I thought was one

984
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 3: of the coolest things I found and got was Harry

985
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 3: Colet's personal scrap book. And Harry Colet was so proud

986
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 3: of Country Club at Detroit and when it held the

987
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 3: US Amateur I think in nineteen fifteen or nineteen fourteen

988
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 3: or fifteen. He kept a scrap book of everything that

989
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:02,360
Speaker 3: happened on his first voice to the United States, and

990
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 3: he brought his wife and it has his tickets and

991
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: it had all of his information on what he ate

992
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: and where he stayed and what he thought and pictures

993
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 3: and everything else. And I found that scrap book and

994
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 3: I had that scrap book for a number of years

995
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 3: and it was just so wonderful because it was just

996
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 3: so insightful to Harry Colt. So I have, you know,

997
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: the first piece of letterhead that was Colt, Alison, Morrison

998
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 3: and Mackenzie and it was all part of that scrap book,

999
01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 3: and I just thought it was just so fantastic to have.

1000
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 3: And then the other thing that I found, which is

1001
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 3: really great is there's this old golf club called the

1002
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 3: Royal you know, Thistle Golf Club and it was founded

1003
01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 3: in eighteen nineteen. And I got a receipt that they

1004
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 3: paid a greens keeper keeper of the greens for his

1005
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 3: annual salary. And I got that receipt of his is

1006
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,520
Speaker 3: you know, actual payment for the course of a year,

1007
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 3: you know, while he was keeping the greens at Discle

1008
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 3: Golf Club, which was really incredible.

1009
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: That's a that'd be a fun thing to just to

1010
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 2: get to thumb through that cult scrap book.

1011
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 3: Oh, it's incredible. And you know, I still have a

1012
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 3: lot of great old golf stuff, and you know, I

1013
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 3: just love it. I love the history of the game,

1014
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 3: and I love the charm of the game.

1015
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: That's that's why. That's why you love the restoration so much.

1016
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

1017
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, it's I always liked history class, which

1018
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 2: is I think why I like this stuff.

1019
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 1: So much when I was growing up.

1020
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: All right, we'll do one more question here. Pat Craig says,

1021
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 2: you're working on Golden Valley up in Minnesota. How does

1022
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:53,400
Speaker 2: it stack up with the other Tillies that you've worked on.

1023
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, ironically, ironically, I was at Golden Ball

1024
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 3: on Monday, right, and Golden Valley is really really an

1025
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 3: interesting golf course, and I didn't really know a whole

1026
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 3: lot about it, and then I get the opportunity and

1027
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 3: the privilege to go meet with them and and and

1028
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 3: what's interesting about it is that it's a typical because

1029
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 3: you know, you have this this you know, Tilling has

1030
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 3: gem consider this Golden Valley, you know, is you know

1031
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 3: in Minneapolis, and uh, Killing has does one golf course

1032
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 3: Rochester in Minnesota. Right, However, Killing has has relatives in

1033
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 3: Minneapolis and Golden Valley convinced Tilling has to go there

1034
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 3: to take a look at this piece of property. And

1035
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 3: the only reason that Tilly does it, of course, is

1036
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 3: he has family there, which is fantastic because now he

1037
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 3: gets to see his family. So Tilly routes masterfully an

1038
01:02:55,680 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 3: incredible routing on this difficult piece property. Right, so it

1039
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 3: has it has perimeter roads all around it. It has

1040
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 3: an interior perimeter road and a railroad track running through it.

1041
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 3: And Bendalo does a golf course originally in nineteen fourteen

1042
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,920
Speaker 3: or nineteen sixteen. There Chilly comes there in nineteen twenty

1043
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 3: six re routes it, expands it and does eighteen holes,

1044
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 3: and he creates an incredible routing on this awkward, disjointed

1045
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 3: piece of property. And then over time, over sixty seven years,

1046
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:38,760
Speaker 3: like many great wonderful old golf courses, trees get planted,

1047
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 3: architects come in. You know, people do more things than

1048
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 3: they should and not enough of what they should do,

1049
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 3: and so Golden Valley sits like this. And so initially

1050
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 3: when I go to Golden Valley, I I come in

1051
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 3: the night before and I just drive around, not the

1052
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:59,120
Speaker 3: golf course, but around the perimeter, and the night before,

1053
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 3: all I'm seeing is all those roads and all the issues,

1054
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 3: and then I, you know, I go to the hotel

1055
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 3: room and I just sleep on it. The next morning,

1056
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 3: I walk into the golf course and I start walking it,

1057
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 3: and then and then I start seeing what Tilly did,

1058
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 3: and I am just blown away by how good it

1059
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 3: can be. And so I just look at it, and

1060
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 3: I suddenly forgot about all the other external things and

1061
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 3: I just focused on what Chilly did. And it's really good.

1062
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 3: And now, of course I can see it, and now

1063
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 3: we're presenting it to the you know, to the to

1064
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 3: the board and the committee first before we present it

1065
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 3: to the membership. But I am so excited about that.

1066
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 3: And and what was really good about it is that

1067
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 3: usually I just create a plan, a master plan, to

1068
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 3: take them to where they want to go. But what

1069
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,160
Speaker 3: I did is I took a look at Tilly's old

1070
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 3: plan and I took I was so excited out to

1071
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:03,200
Speaker 3: Tilly and what he did on it and the Tilly plan,

1072
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 3: but I took our master plan and I then went

1073
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 3: back and created what Tilly created. And so I've got

1074
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 3: this really great Tilly plan for Golden Valley, which is

1075
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 3: what he did plus what we're going to do, and

1076
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 3: we have this incredible opportunity there. I'm really excited about it.

1077
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 3: They are so nice there and so trusting, and you know,

1078
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 3: I'm really thankful to be there. So it's going to

1079
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 3: be pretty exciting to do it.

1080
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's Minnesota.

1081
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:37,440
Speaker 2: People are just so nice and it's an interesting golf

1082
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: town because they had Ross do work there.

1083
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: They had Rainer up there, they had.

1084
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 2: Tilly, they had William Watson, like they had all these

1085
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 2: great architects in the doing, you know, work at various courses.

1086
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:56,600
Speaker 1: It's got a ton of variety.

1087
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 3: It really does. And you are so right, Andy, However,

1088
01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 3: and this is what I was saying the Golden Valley

1089
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,040
Speaker 3: that yes, there are all these notable architects that have

1090
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 3: done some really really good golf courses there. However, if

1091
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 3: you look at the pedigree of courses that Tilly's done, right,

1092
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 3: I mean you can, Okay, Ross is really talented. Clearly

1093
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 3: Rainers really talented. Look at their work. But look at

1094
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 3: the list of courses that have endoored that are Tilly.

1095
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 3: It's okay. And now you look at gold it is unbelievable.

1096
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 3: So now you look at and that's the thing that's

1097
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,360
Speaker 3: the genius and the charm of Tilly. So now you

1098
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 3: look at you look at Golden Valley and look what

1099
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 3: they have ready to be polished and reset. It's incredible.

1100
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: I would add it's remarkable to look at the entire

1101
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: Philly School of Architecture because Flynn is a similar where

1102
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 2: he had. You know, he has so many courses that

1103
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 2: have endured the test of time. George Thomas, you know,

1104
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: with the courses he did on in la you know,

1105
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 2: obviously Marion Is and then Oakland, but those guys that

1106
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 2: did all that collaborative work in Philadelphia, all of them

1107
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: have you know, so many great golf courses still today.

1108
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 3: And you know, and isn't isn't that the truth? And

1109
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 3: that's a great observation. And I wish I could say, now, look,

1110
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,919
Speaker 3: I'm from Philadelphia. Now I'm from the wrong side of Philadelphia.

1111
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 3: I'm from South Philly, and all those other golf courses

1112
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 3: are in the Posh neighborhood. But you know, that is

1113
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 3: one thing that when I got the opportunity to go

1114
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 3: to Philly Cricket, I'm going, my gosh, I'm from South Philly.

1115
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to big time Philly now and

1116
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 3: I get a chance to work on tilling Haass golf course.

1117
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 3: I so want to honor Philadelphia architecture. And you know,

1118
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:50,840
Speaker 3: George Thomas was a member at Philly Cricket with Tilling half.

1119
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 3: So that's why I was just so excited to be

1120
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 3: given that opportunity. And I just wanted to make sure

1121
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 3: that what I did was honoring to Tilly Philadelphia School

1122
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 3: of Architecture. And you know where I'm from.

1123
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 2: That's that's really cool. It's say, a getting to do

1124
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: stuff in your hometown is awesome. It's all right, we

1125
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 2: do this overrated underrated segments. It's quick, it's you know,

1126
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,160
Speaker 2: I mean, give you a couple topics and you tell

1127
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 2: me if it's overrated or underrated.

1128
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: All right, no proper.

1129
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 3: War and if I hey, hey, and if I don't

1130
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 3: want to hurt anybody's feelings, I'll just say I don't

1131
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 3: want to comment.

1132
01:08:29,280 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we're we don't usually allow that.

1133
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: You know, we've allowed We've allowed one or two properly

1134
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 2: rated in the history.

1135
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,120
Speaker 1: Of overrated underrated.

1136
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,799
Speaker 2: Okay, the use of grass hollows from the one bearded golfer.

1137
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 3: Oh, I hate them. I think there I just don't

1138
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 3: even see the charm in them, you know, no, I

1139
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 3: don't see it. Overrated, Yeah, very very overrated.

1140
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 2: El Dinarino says us opens at modern venues.

1141
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 3: That's just a clueless thing. I think that's so overrated.

1142
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 3: And my gosh, look at look at the results last

1143
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 3: two or three.

1144
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,400
Speaker 2: We're on the same pace here. Green to Tea like

1145
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 2: connections from Ben Hogan camp.

1146
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I love them. Okay, So I think I think

1147
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 3: what's great about that is, look, if you have a

1148
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:39,519
Speaker 3: close Green to Tea connection, I mean green fir t

1149
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 3: is really there, instead of pretending it doesn't exist, I

1150
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 3: love to connect it so that I'm showing that you're

1151
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 3: going from one room right into the next room. I

1152
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: think it's really really good. Now, you don't want to

1153
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 3: do it where it's forced or there's too much room,

1154
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 3: But if it's tight close I connect.

1155
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: Gotta do it, and you gotta have it consistent. You

1156
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 2: can't just do it once right.

1157
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 3: Well Yeah, I mean, okay, so Andy, you saw marine.

1158
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 3: How cool is those? How cool are those Green Keey connections?

1159
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 2: They're amazing and anybody can see it. I've I've got

1160
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,760
Speaker 2: a review. I got like hundreds of photos in that thing.

1161
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 2: So that course, I'll tell you what though, we had

1162
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 2: to walk thirty six in that USAM qualifier.

1163
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 1: Huh that was a bear.

1164
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 3: Well you know, yeah, yeah, well you know. And I

1165
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,520
Speaker 3: did a couple of green tea connections at Philly Cricket.

1166
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 3: In truth, I'm on a mission where I'm trying to

1167
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 3: return golf to close green tea relationships. So like when

1168
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 3: I played Saint Andrews, you know, you go from one

1169
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 3: green right to two t I love that where you're

1170
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:58,679
Speaker 3: in the game, and that's where I think the game

1171
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 3: is in terms of charm. If you can get right

1172
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 3: off the green, go right onto the tee and go,

1173
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:08,719
Speaker 3: I think that's it. It promotes walking too, it does,

1174
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,240
Speaker 3: and that's what I'm trying to do. And and I

1175
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 3: just want to reintroduce that. So at Golden Valley we're

1176
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,759
Speaker 3: going to introduce it. And Moraine clearly, we did Philly Cricket,

1177
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:23,479
Speaker 3: we did Baltimore. So you know, Marine passionate about that.

1178
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 2: Speaking of major or like Major Champion, Marine needs like

1179
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:31,519
Speaker 2: a Senior Open because that place is unreal and it's

1180
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 2: such a good test.

1181
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, I absolutely agree, and it could hold it.

1182
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's there are usam it rained, So it was

1183
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:45,719
Speaker 2: a little soft and only one one score, one eighteen

1184
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:47,440
Speaker 2: hole score was under part.

1185
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean and and by the way, that

1186
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,880
Speaker 3: club didn't say to me, Keith, we need to get

1187
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,760
Speaker 3: more yardage. But when I never really thought about trying

1188
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 3: to pull it back further because they just didn't need

1189
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 3: to do it. But it's it's a lot of golf,

1190
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 3: and it's a great golf course and a great membership

1191
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 3: and great people.

1192
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were really nice there.

1193
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 2: If you know, if they had, if they tried to

1194
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 2: do a pro event, they'd have to move Tea's on

1195
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 2: nine and seventeen back because like Dustin Johnson could just

1196
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 2: fly those those ridges, those agreed, Those are great little

1197
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:28,360
Speaker 2: subtle design things that they did there, or you did,

1198
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 2: I don't know who did.

1199
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:32,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually I actually did it.

1200
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are like those ridges that just they just

1201
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 2: killed the long him.

1202
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:40,719
Speaker 1: And I hit him right into it, they'd go nowhere.

1203
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, yeah, and that's you know, and

1204
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 3: I learned that years ago, which is if I can

1205
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:50,200
Speaker 3: get you know, a strong ball to hit into the upslope,

1206
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 3: you know, and take the heat off the ball, that's

1207
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 3: key and you know, I finally learned that.

1208
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, I thought it.

1209
01:12:58,280 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 2: Was one of the better subtle things that I saw

1210
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 2: on a course this year. So I'm a fan. Last

1211
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 2: one from Joseph rolling the ball back underrated, overrated, This is.

1212
01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:16,760
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you know, you know, oh, isn't it?

1213
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 3: Isn't it terrible? Where our game is going? Where you know,

1214
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:24,440
Speaker 3: people are now talking about eight thousand yard golf courses

1215
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,599
Speaker 3: just so that the pros you know, can hit, you know,

1216
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 3: to force them to hit five irons or three irons

1217
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 3: into holes. So you know, the pros play a different

1218
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 3: game than we do, and you're going to roll the

1219
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 3: ball back. It's impossible, you know, for our game to

1220
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:41,280
Speaker 3: continue the way it is.

1221
01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:45,320
Speaker 2: It's just it's I hit it pretty far. I'm not

1222
01:13:45,479 --> 01:13:49,360
Speaker 2: like Dustin Johnson, but I was like I played our

1223
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 2: stadium this year and I was like kind of like

1224
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 2: sickend because of how many wedges I hit. And it's

1225
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 2: just like I I didn't have to h do anything

1226
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 2: but hit driver wedge and it's like that's not off.

1227
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 3: It isn't. And yeah it's still on darts, it's it's

1228
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:07,559
Speaker 3: but we'll.

1229
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 1: See what happens.

1230
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 2: So hopefully we'll just start our own revolution, you know,

1231
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:14,480
Speaker 2: like your backyard.

1232
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,600
Speaker 3: Nine hole cours. Yeah, I know, I wish it was

1233
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,040
Speaker 3: that simple. The problem is there's so much money in

1234
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 3: the game, and you know what's happening is that everybody's

1235
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 3: trying to do what's right for everybody and at the

1236
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 3: expense of our game.

1237
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: M Yeah, I agree with that.

1238
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 2: You know, they they still sell balls, but yeah, it

1239
01:14:38,439 --> 01:14:42,120
Speaker 2: wouldn't be you know, all the research and development money

1240
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:45,400
Speaker 2: that they already poured into next year's ball would be gone.

1241
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 1: And that's the thing I think they are mad about.

1242
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:51,160
Speaker 1: But they'd be up in arms about.

1243
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 2: So with that note, you know, on a getting off

1244
01:14:55,160 --> 01:14:58,080
Speaker 2: on a somber note, which you know is only fitting

1245
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 2: because you're you've been so positive.

1246
01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:04,519
Speaker 1: That's the end. So thanks for coming on.

1247
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 3: Well Andy, thank you so much for giving me the

1248
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 3: opportunity to talk with you and a little bit about

1249
01:15:11,360 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 3: my work. And I'm so thankful that you would, you know,

1250
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 3: you know, want to talk with me and allow me

1251
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:18,519
Speaker 3: to you know, just talk about what I do.

1252
01:15:18,880 --> 01:15:22,240
Speaker 2: Hey, you always have an open invite, so you know,

1253
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:24,920
Speaker 2: if you want to, you guys, something to get off

1254
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:27,000
Speaker 2: your chest, send me an email.

1255
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:28,080
Speaker 1: We'll get your back on.

1256
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 3: Well, thank you again for you know, paying attention to

1257
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 3: some of the work that I'm doing. And you know,

1258
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,519
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about the work I'm doing right now

1259
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 3: and what I've got going on for next year and

1260
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 3: the year after, and I've got three or four years

1261
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 3: work out ahead of me, and I'm really quite excited

1262
01:15:48,040 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 3: about it. So thank you, and and I hope to

1263
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:51,880
Speaker 3: have the pleasure of meeting you.

1264
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, let me know when you're going to

1265
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: be up in Minnesota. It's not that far from here.

1266
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:00,720
Speaker 3: Sounds perfect. I love it. I'd love to host you

1267
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 3: and show you how special Golden Valley's going to be awesome.

1268
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,400
Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk soon and have a have a good

1269
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:08,439
Speaker 1: holiday season.