WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 117 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:03.080 Also media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.920 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's got to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.760 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.720 Welcome, Dick. It appen here at the podcast that we're 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.040 starting as if it was a NOL podcast instead of 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.800 doing some terrible thing like we normally do. I'm your host, 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.680 Bia Wong. This is a podcast about things falling apart, 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.760 and this is a putting it back together again episode. Yeah, 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.240 and I'm I'm here with two workers from Donut Workers United, 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.400 specifically at Loostar Donuts, Lydia and Ben, to talk about 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:54.520 unionization efforts and some really terrible union busting stuff. So, Lydia, Ben, 0:00:54.560 --> 0:00:55.280 welcome to the show. 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.840 Thank you, thank you for having us. Super excited. 0:00:59.760 --> 0:01:01.720 Yeah yeah, I'm really excited to have you two here. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.679 So all right, So Blue Star Donuts is a donut 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:10.360 place in Portland's for people who are not in Portland's 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.080 question work, which is probably a lot of you. I 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:15.280 don't know, I don't know where you are right now. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:18.880 So I guess the place I wanted to start with 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.520 talking about this is how how did you two get 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:22.680 involved with this campaign? 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:27.960 You know, it's actually for me, it was right before Halloween. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.120 I went to a coworker's house and you know, we 0:01:32.160 --> 0:01:35.080 had some drinks and hung out and she just sort of, 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.280 you know, the conversation just sort of organically led to 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.280 work and talking about work and you know, this is 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.800 messed up at work, this is frustrating us. And then 0:01:44.400 --> 0:01:47.400 she was like, hey, like, what's your opinion on you know, 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.160 union stuff? And I actually had when I worked at 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.520 Starbucks in Texas, I had tried to unionize my location 0:01:54.640 --> 0:01:55.279 and it didn't. 0:01:55.840 --> 0:02:00.200 No one was interested, but I you know, they she. 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.240 Asked us if we wanted to sign a union card 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.480 or union authorization card, and I was all for it. 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.680 You know, I'm very into it. So that's that's how 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:09.360 it started for me. 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.799 Yeah, So bouncing off of that, it was I would 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.480 say a couple of days before that Halloween party. For me, 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.400 I'm pretty close friends with the woman who started all 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:26.720 of this, and so I was visiting her and she 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:29.880 just kind of briefly mentioned She's like, hey, do you 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.720 know what's going on with Blue Star? And kind of 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:37.840 open ended question, and you know this company almost every 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:43.119 day something happens, so I was like, I mean, maybe 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:48.600 maybe not what's going on? And she's like, well, like 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.400 are you good with unions? And I'm like, oh, girl, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.840 of course i am. I was actually involved with a 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.679 union and a previous job that was more higher end, 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:04.560 like government board specific instead of an individual and I 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.440 was like, yeah, it hit me what's going on. And 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.920 she's like, okay, cool, we have a couple of people 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.280 interested trying to unionize Blue Star. And I was like, oh, 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:19.440 sign me up, Like let's do this thing. And then 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.920 at that Halleen party when we were all kind of 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:27.040 gathered there, we briefly talked about it and how messed 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.320 up things were, swalk stories and it just kind of 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.080 click that leads to my brain of like okay, yeah, 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.080 let's do this. So that was that was my end. 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.360 Yeah, it seems like it was a really a pretty 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.080 quick campaign. I know you all had an election. Oh 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:47.000 how many weeks ago? 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:47.280 Was that? 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:52.360 Likes ago? Yeah? 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.080 I guess it'll be like three when this goes out. Yeah, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.040 so that that's that's a very very quick campaign. How 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.560 many people like ish are are at the shop. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.160 It depends on if you're adding like all the satellites 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:10.560 and versus like the regular Flagship store. I think we 0:04:10.680 --> 0:04:14.920 have thirty something at Flagship, which is the location on Jefferson, 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.680 and then I think there's maybe fifty one employees total. 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:23.760 Yeah, we're pretty scapared around all of Portland with one 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.839 shop in Lake Oswego, but majority of us are in 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:29.440 headquarters at Flagship. 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:30.599 Yeah. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.679 That's something I think is pretty interesting about this campaign 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:38.440 and about a lot of the independent campaigns, is that, yeah, 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.880 it's shops are it's shops that are pretty small shops 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:45.359 that are split around, and it shops that, like you 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:48.559 know it shops with high turnover. Now I was wondering, well, actually, 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.400 I don't know. I'm assuming you get SiGe turned over because. 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.880 There is a lot of turnover in the satellite shops 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:56.680 for sure. 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.600 I mean I would even say that there was a 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.640 fair amount of turnover at Flagship. You know, we had 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:08.719 a time where in our kitchen, which is the wholesale kitchen, 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:10.640 which makes the donut bites. We referred to it as 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.680 Red Kitchen. We had four people quit in four days. 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:16.640 Jesus ghost. 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.400 They didn't Yeah, they didn't replace those people. They expected 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.479 us to continue working the producing the same amount with 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.680 four less people. Yeah, but there were you know, a 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.640 lot of like poached wororker like temporary workers that were 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.080 coming and going while I was there. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.280 And yeah, some pretty serious turnover. 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.320 That kind of happened with me last year. I was 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:43.600 working at Blue Star for like about eight months. Oh 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.400 it's the new year, I guess two years ago. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:47.440 And then I quit. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.479 I left, and then unfortunately last year I hit a 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.440 little unemployment zone and I'm like I need a job. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.040 So I came back to Blue Star for about three 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.760 months and this is when everything was going on. But 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:05.359 long story short, Sorry, last time I was there, we 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.680 kind of had a little bit of turnover as well. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:13.200 A lot of people were not great, and we had 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:17.000 a lot of meetings and got some people fired. Granted, 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.240 like Ben was saying, is that no one replaced them, 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.719 and so it's very much of like we have to 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:29.520 cover them and a lot more quantity. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:34.120 Yeah, so has the sort of speed ups from that 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.679 was that one of the main things that was driving 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.200 the unionization or like what other kinds of things were 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:41.600 like driving people into this. 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.680 There were a few things, a few main things. 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.719 Pay and inconsistency of pay was a real big issue. 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.440 For instance, there was a person in our kitchen who 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:55.160 me and her started around the same time. We had 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:59.920 very similar previous experience. Neither of us were cross trained. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.479 We did the same exact job. She was making three 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:03.480 dollars an hour more. 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:03.839 Than I was. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:09.040 And so that kind of thing happens a lot at 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:15.160 Blue Star. And there's one of the biggest things for me, honestly, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.760 was the point system, what they call the point system 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.400 the disciplinary system at Blue Star. Basically, you get a 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.800 certain amount of points that you're allowed to hit. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:28.120 If you go over that. 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.320 Amount of points, you're done, you're fired, and you can 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.080 get you know, I don't remember the numbers exactly, but 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.720 it's like one point for calling out of a shift, 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.040 half a point for being ten minutes late. See, there's 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.280 all these things that you can earn. Yeah, there's all 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:44.280 these things that you can earn points for. And it 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.000 you know, if you reach that number eight, it doesn't 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.320 really matter how good of an employee you are you're fired. 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.080 Yeah. And on top of that, with the point system, 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:59.360 it's incredibly unfair because you get points due to things 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:01.240 you can't like the thing. 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:01.960 It's very able. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:08.320 Yeah, And the main issue was traffic and crashes. If 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.920 like a car crash happens and you're stuck in that 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.440 you and you're like late to work because of it, 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:17.960 even when you like let your managers know and let 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.800 your team know, you still get punished for it and 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.880 you get points and that counts to the eight point total. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.560 So that was a main part of the point system 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:33.400 that really really had us upset and very unfair, honestly. 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.000 Well, and it's it's very it's a very abless system. 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.760 I mean there were multiple people in our kitchen alone 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.839 that had chronic illness issues, myself included. And I there 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.160 were two nights when in the three ish months that 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.760 I was working there, two days where I had not 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:54.440 slept it all the night before and I was literally 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.040 not seeing straight, like I was seeing double. I couldn't 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.760 walk in a straight line like, I was not okay. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.920 And you know, there's some heavy machinery and like some 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.880 really hot oil in the kitchen and I was like, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.000 I really don't think I'm safe to come to work. 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:09.880 And they're like, that's fine, you know, stay home, get 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:14.840 some rest. But you are getting a point what Yeah, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.120 so you know, a very ablest system. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.640 Yeah, and going off of that as well, the whole 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:27.079 thick time and PTO was a mess. And when we 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:31.520 get like paid time off, it won't even cover a 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.800 whole shift. We'll be lucky to get four hours. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:35.360 Yeah. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:41.840 No, it's it's insane really and so I'll never forget. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:49.800 Like just recently, our special Christmas prize thing, our grand 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:54.200 prize on the twelfth day was two hours PTO. 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:59.280 Two hours ye, congratulations ye. 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.880 And sick time too, yeah, they were super problems. Are 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.440 like we were so hard for this, you deserve this, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:13.320 blah blah blah. And with sick time, it like will 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.040 barely cover a day. And on top of that, if 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:21.480 you're like sincerely sick, I got bronchitis on my birthday 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.959 and I had to leave work for like a week, 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.800 And around the like second or third day, my manager 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.560 is like, okay, well for you to be excused properly, 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:37.200 you have to go back and get a doctor's note 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:41.320 from them, and to prove that you are not able 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.960 to come into work and you know, I could ramble 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.679 on like they they don't handle COVID. Well, they're like, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.520 if you can stand up, you can slap on a 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:56.960 mask and come into work. And COVID specifically spread so 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:01.360 quickly there because people were so scared aired of not 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:04.600 coming to work that they would get punished and get points. 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.320 This than the other that sick people will come into 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.400 work and get other people sick. It happened, yeah, all 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:12.960 the time. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:15.880 I mean I can think of specifically. We had a 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:20.000 coworker who, you know, kind of young. This was you know, 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:21.960 she was kind of getting her feet wet in the 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.840 working world, and she had had some issues with illness 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:31.360 and she came to work with strep throat. Yeah, because 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:33.920 she was so afraid of getting I mean she literally 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.640 was like in tears, like having a breakdown to the 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.080 managers because she was like, I can't get fired, Like 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.840 I need to keep this job and I'm afraid that 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.280 if I don't come in, I'm going to get fired. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.120 And that's the kind of culture they create there with 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:51.320 that disciplinary system. 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:56.280 Yeah, it's it's really rough because majority of these workers 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.920 rely on this job, like this job is their income 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:07.760 and they can't really do anything else, and it's so 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:15.200 incredibly toxic there where they're just so afraid to not 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:19.640 come into work because they will be punished over it. 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:21.760 It kind of goes without saying, which means you should 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.559 say it, which is like it is unbelievably discussing to 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.240 literally put people's lives in danger because you don't want 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.360 to let someone take like a few days off because 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:35.160 they have fucking stripped. Like that's unbelievable. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:38.680 Yeah, over like peace and love to Blue Star, but 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.040 over donuts like donut bite. 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.080 Yeah, like yeah, well. 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.600 Like like I don't, I don't, I don't think. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.760 I don't think it's okay to make like nurses go 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:54.840 in when they're sick, but like donuts, like this is 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:56.559 oh my god. 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.600 Like you know, as you know, who cares if we're 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:03.600 suffering as long as they make their bottom line? 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:03.880 You know. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:08.480 Yeah, it's really one of those things. It's like, yes, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.080 like they will survive if slightly less donuts are produced, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.160 Like they will be fine. However, Comma all over here 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.240 are getting terribly sick because of all the shit that 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.199 is that is terrible. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.160 Yeah, no, like I laugh all the time about it, 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.000 and I you know, my roommate and I are like 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.000 best friends. I come home almost every day from those 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:36.000 shifts being like you'll never guess what happened over like 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:40.839 the most craziest, hilarious things, and like I can't believe 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:43.440 this is real, Like I'm experiencing this. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.000 Yeah, and we're we're going to talk more about the 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:50.520 absolutely wild stuff that happened here. Unfortunately, after we come 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.480 back from this ad break that pays some of the 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:56.239 bills question. 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:08.679 Mark, we are back. 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.040 So yeah, I wanted to ask about some of the 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:16.000 other stuff that's been happening at this shop because everything 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.480 that I've ever heard about is just like, I don't know, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.800 just deeply weird. And it's well, I guess, I guess 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:25.080 one place we can sort of start. It's like it 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.320 seems like it's one of these places where they, I 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.960 don't know, it has this very sort of like progressive 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.040 eveneer around it, and then when it comes time to 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:40.120 like you know, like like even sort of live up 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.240 to those ideals, you just get this. Everyone's forced to 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:45.000 come home with COVID. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.240 Yeah, and it's it's so funny because you walk in 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.680 and you know there's there's pride flags there, you know, 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.640 all all of the workers are you know, queer and 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:01.200 cool and progressive, and you know they're supporting the Shortland Teachers' Union. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.960 And yet you know, and this story is just disgusting. 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.080 We had a worker in our kitchen, actually in Lydia, 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:14.239 in an I's kitchen, who sexually assaulted two of our coworkers. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:15.040 Jesus Christ. 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:21.760 Yes, these women brought it forward to management. Management victim blamed. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.360 They thanked them for keeping it quiet and not letting 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:30.080 it interfere with their work. Yeah, it was not handled well. 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:34.640 That was specifically the manager of Red Kitchen, Brittany Bergner. 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:39.240 A lot of just really like callous and inappropriate mishandling 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:43.480 of that situation. Yeah, and it was really disgusting. 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:48.680 Yeah, it was disgusting. And I was so so grateful 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.000 that I wasn't there when this happened, because I would 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.840 literally tour this man apart. But the thing with that 0:15:55.960 --> 0:16:01.000 manager is that him and her got all really well. 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:05.800 And what I've heard I wasn't there. I heard that 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:12.240 there was some favoritism towards him, and so when these 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.800 allegations came up, that's when she got She mishandled it 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.880 a lot, and it was not dealt with properly at all, 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:27.200 and it seemed very much swept under rug kind of 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.080 very much. So, yeah, he did. 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:31.400 Nobody talked about it. 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.920 Yeah, he did get fired eventually, but eventually that's the 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.600 main thing. Yeah, it was handled right away. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.800 And the you know, the effect it had on these 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.960 women that came forward that this happened to. I mean 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.400 I I hung out with them outside of work where 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:49.480 they would talk about, you know, what happened and how 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.800 it was handled, and like, you know, they were sobbing. 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.600 They were you know, their lives were torn apart over this. 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:58.320 I mean, it's a very serious thing, as you know, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.800 we all know, to be sexual assaulted and then you know, 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.840 to have it treated this way by someone who's in 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.760 a position of authority over you, it's you know, I 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.959 can't help but keep using that word disgusting. It's just 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:14.800 it's inhumane and honestly, like that's Bluestar. 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:20.080 Yeah, especially by a company that reaches how open and 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.600 awesome and close family we are, and then behind the 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:29.880 scenes they're actually mistreating their workers literally every single day. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.280 So it's it is, it is disgusting. I have no 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.400 other word to describe it. 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.800 Yeah, I mean, that's like someone's sexually assaulting you, and 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.440 then them not being fired means you can fucking run 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.000 into them at your job, which is like the fucking 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.960 just absolute nightmare shit. That is like the worst fucking 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:53.720 shit that can happen. 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.399 And we all worked in the same kitchen. 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.320 We all worked in the same kitchen, so we were 0:17:57.320 --> 0:17:59.520 guaranteed to see each other for most of the day 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:01.879 every day. And it's like, you know, you expect these 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:03.840 women to go to work and stare at this guy 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.000 and and you know, talk and laugh with this guy 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:07.840 who assaulted them, Like that's crazy. 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.560 Yeah, that's absolutely fucking terrible. And I hope, I hope, 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:17.720 like I hope fucking like some shit happens to these people, 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:19.639 because like God. 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.959 Oh yeah, don't worry. We got him banned from some 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:28.200 bars because classic thing is drugging drinks. 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:28.560 Christ. 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:33.040 So we've spread the word and got flyers, and I'm 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:36.240 pretty sure he's banned I know for sure too bars, 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.520 but I think others as well, I'm not sure. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:40.960 Yeah. 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.800 Yeah, don't get me wrong. I will definitely go out 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:47.160 of my way to destroy a man's life. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.320 Yeah, And so I guess, like you know, with with 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.920 just like the absolute fucking horrifying shake going on, and 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:56.960 also with YouTube, like you know, people doing organizing outside 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.080 of the workplace to go after these people. It may 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.439 it makes it makes a lot of sense that, you know, 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:06.040 the unionization campaign has been going, and I wanted to ask, 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:07.400 I want to well, I guess I wanted to talk 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:11.280 about sort of the vote and the stuff leading up 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:13.240 to the vote and the things that happened to YouTube, 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:14.679 because oh my god. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:21.639 Yep, yeah, you know, we we had our vote on 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:27.520 January seventeenth. There were seven votes that were left unopened 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.560 that were challenged by Blue Star management. Three of them 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.080 because the employees were no longer active employees, and four 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.119 of them for honestly just like completely bullshit reasons, like 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.000 they had to get a new envelope. 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:44.520 You know, they they were there before the vote, but. 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.520 Like seven minutes after the cutoff that you know that 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.080 Blue Star wanted one person had to get a new ballot, 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.760 and you know, it's like, these are these are technicalities 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.280 that really should not prevent someone from having their vote counted. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:02.280 And so we as DW Star, objected to six of 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:06.879 those challenges. The four that were very ticky tacky for 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.159 obvious reasons, and that was the week end. 0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.840 That was the week of the big snow snowstorm as well. 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.240 We should talk for people who weren't in Portland for this. Okay, 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:16.680 so the city of Portland, this is the thing I 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.080 have heard. I am a Chicagoan, so like I grew 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.320 up in snowstorms, right, but the city of Portland, like 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:24.679 this is I get, this is this is this is 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:26.720 this is the this is the the Mia rants about 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.040 the city of Portland for about five minutes thing because 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.960 oh my fucking god, the city of Portland does not 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.240 actually substantively do any kind of like street clearing. They 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:38.320 don't do salt, they don't really. I think they might 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:42.040 have like two snowplows. And this means that, you know, 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:45.040 when it, for example, snows, and then the temperature goes 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:47.360 back up, goes freezing, and it goes back down below freezing, 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.000 the entire city is covered in a sheet of ice. 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.200 And this lasts for days and days and days and days. 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.840 It is terrible. I came into Portland's like in the 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.639 middle of this, like you you walk three steps and 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:03.360 you're just going flying on this ice. It is terrible. 0:21:03.400 --> 0:21:05.800 It is dangerous to drive it is dangerous to walk, 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:07.879 it is it is dangerous to school on your butt, 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.560 like terrible. I don't know, Like if you did this 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.119 in Chicago, if the city of Chicago failed to clear 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.200 the streets sufficiently that this was happening, the government would 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:22.520 be would fucking collapse in a week. Portlander's you deserve better. 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.760 I personally would have preferred snow, like six feet of 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:32.160 snow over a half in ice, the ice over nane. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:36.840 The whole entire city shuts down, and it's it is 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:41.320 incredibly dangerous, for sure, and the city does not prepare 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:46.280 for it. The city, like landscape itself is not prepared 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:50.399 for it. And yeah, it's awful. I tripped and fell 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:55.160 like three times within a week, and my room and 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.560 I were literally locked into our house for days, like 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.800 four maybe five days. We could not leave. And on 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:05.800 top of that, we had to turn our water off, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:06.960 like it was a whole night. 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.640 There so many, so many people lost power, so many people's. 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:15.639 Like yeah, growth and the NLRB building itself was shut 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.239 down for I don't remember how long, but it was 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:20.640 shut down, and. 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:21.240 So it was. 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:23.560 It was shut down for most of that week leading 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:25.480 up to the vote. Our vote was on a Thursday, 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:28.800 and I think Thursday was the first day that the 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.080 actual office was open. There might have been some people 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.359 there on Wednesday, but the office itself was closed the 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.080 you know, Monday was Martin Luther King Junior Day, so 0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.880 that it was close closed. But you know, I tried 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.480 to take you know, I in my little hatchback with 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:47.840 two two wheel drive hatchbag, tried to drive across Portland 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.720 to take people to the office to turn in their 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.399 their ballots and because we were doing a mail in ballot, 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:56.240 but some people had left it at the last minute, 0:22:56.240 --> 0:23:01.200 you know, as human beings do. And we we get 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.639 you know, we drive across this ice and snow. We 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.320 get to the NLRB office. There's security guards in the 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:10.359 lobby and they say, well, you can't go up there 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.919 as closed. I'm like, okay, uh, what about tomorrow. They're like, 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.760 we don't know, we'll be here, but we can't guarantee that, 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:19.880 you know, the nler B office will be here. 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:21.080 Yeah, And so I. 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:25.200 Call up our rep at the NLRB, Michael Moles, and 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:27.119 I say, hey, like, what's the deal. When can we 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:29.439 drop these off? And he goes, well, actually, you know 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:31.440 you can drop them off. When we're not there. You 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.440 can slide them under the door, you know, as long 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:37.280 as it's the person, you know, as long as the 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:39.840 person whose ballot is being turned in is turning in 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:41.960 the ballot, like, you can't send someone else to do 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:44.200 it for you. So we go back up on Wednesday 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:47.639 and get some turned in. And you know, at this point, 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:50.120 the people who wanted to turn in on Tuesday, they've 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.120 got you know, they've got work, they've got other things 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.000 going on. They have to find a time to get in. 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.120 So we're going like Thursday morning, Thursday afternoon, right before 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.840 the vote. And that's why all of these votes were 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:05.280 you know, missing things or you know a little bit late. 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:08.200 Is because the whole city was shut down for half 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:12.080 a week, almost a week, and things got you know, 0:24:13.320 --> 0:24:13.880 mess up. 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:17.639 Yeah, Like the fact that the City of Portland doesn't 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:20.480 does not like refuses to buy snowplows and doesn't know 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:22.720 that you can use beat juice as an anti ice thing. 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:26.119 Like the fact that the fact the fact that the 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:29.480 fact that the city leadership is utterly incompetent, like should 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:32.160 not should not be a reason why your union vote 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:35.680 doesn't your votes don't get counted. That is absolutely absurd. 0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.719 It's also like, you know, I mean, like okay, like 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:42.080 I get like the responsible thing to do. Dream this 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:43.960 storm was to close and a lot of places were 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:47.960 fucking open, and that is a disaster. But the fact 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:52.959 that the LRB is closed and all before workers are 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:57.199 still happy to go to work is like, just oh god. 0:24:58.760 --> 0:24:59.040 Well. 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:03.640 And I I emailed or I called Michael Moles again, 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.359 our rep at the NLRB, and I was like, hey, like, 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.600 this is kind of unprecedented, like can we push the 0:25:09.680 --> 0:25:12.439 vote out like a week just to make sure that 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:16.719 everyone can safely get their ballots in? And he told me, 0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:19.159 in no uncertain terms that we would not be doing that. 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:22.760 He gave me this, you know, long speech about how 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:24.720 hard it is, how difficult it is, how you know, 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.399 we have to get all these permissions. And you know, 0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:32.159 I'm fairly new to all the legal avenues and legal 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.280 parts of union and stuff, and so I didn't really 0:25:34.359 --> 0:25:36.639 have a counter argument. So I was just like, you know, 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:40.040 throw my hands up, Okay, whatever, we'll do our best. 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:40.600 Well. 0:25:40.760 --> 0:25:44.440 At the time, people are literally risking their lives. Yeah, 0:25:44.480 --> 0:25:47.960 and to drive cars, they're risking their cars. They're risking 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:51.600 their lives trying to get these votes in. So that's 0:25:51.600 --> 0:25:54.879 why this appeal to these challenges are so important that 0:25:56.000 --> 0:26:00.959 it's not fair if we don't count in ice storm 0:26:01.600 --> 0:26:03.640 and the actual you have to. 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:04.360 Account for that. 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:08.080 Yeah, So like all these things matter and should count, 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:11.000 and that's why we're really pushing that these votes be 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:13.000 counted well. 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:15.440 In two of the votes where people who had quit, 0:26:16.160 --> 0:26:19.639 and one of those was was Lydia, and she was 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:21.719 straight up intimidated into quitting. 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:24.280 And you can Lydia if you want to talk about it. 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:29.160 Oh my gosh. Okay, So they I use this word 0:26:29.240 --> 0:26:31.840 pretty loosely, but the more I talk about the more 0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:36.760 it's true. They forced me to quit, point blank. Period. 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:43.920 They pulled me into this meeting where at Blue Store 0:26:43.960 --> 0:26:48.400 they have these every thirty day check ins and meetings 0:26:48.440 --> 0:26:52.760 to talk about like how you're doing and how's the work, 0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:58.199 et cetera. So on our ninety day check in, we 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:04.080 are promised a raise after working here for ninety days, 0:27:05.600 --> 0:27:07.320 but first we have to go through a whole meeting, 0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:12.120 and this whole like spectrum one through five. They rate 0:27:12.200 --> 0:27:17.320 you on different topics. So I come in and not 0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:21.480 only as my manager there, but hr and our head 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:25.680 chef is there, and last time I did a ninety 0:27:25.760 --> 0:27:29.960 day that didn't happen, it was just my manager. So 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.159 immediately I'm like, what is going on? This is weird. 0:27:35.040 --> 0:27:41.480 And we went through the normal stuff until chef interrupted 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:46.359 and brought up my schedule. So at the time, I 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:50.920 was working two jobs, Blue Star and another bakery. And 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:56.840 before any of this, I checked in with my managers 0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:59.639 and chef to make sure that this was possible and 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:02.840 okay to put me from full time to part time 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:07.120 at Blue Star. And there they were thrilled. They were like, oh, 0:28:07.119 --> 0:28:10.760 that's so great for you. Congratulations. Yes, we can totally 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.240 work with you. This is not a problem at all. 0:28:14.640 --> 0:28:19.199 I'm like, okay, great, awesome. And so they brought up 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:22.760 my schedule and they're like, so we're gonna change some 0:28:22.920 --> 0:28:26.520 things with Red Kitchen and we're going to change production 0:28:26.760 --> 0:28:31.000 times and we're gonna bump everything up a couple hours. 0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:36.320 Totally fine, Okay, I get it. And I said I'm like, okay, well, 0:28:36.359 --> 0:28:41.680 you know I work until one pm, so you know 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:47.160 I'm not available to be here until like two. And 0:28:47.200 --> 0:28:52.560 apparently that was an issue because my schedule, my availability 0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:56.520 is no longer working for them, which doesn't make sense 0:28:56.720 --> 0:29:02.560 because a closing shift still exists. And I'm I told them, 0:29:02.560 --> 0:29:04.920 I'm like, you can use me. I am part time, 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:10.120 you can use me for like four hours closing, Like 0:29:10.280 --> 0:29:14.960 I am okay with that, and they shut me down. 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:18.680 Chef kind of clicked her teeth and was like, you know, 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:22.480 that's not really worth it for us, and what are 0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:25.360 you doing over the holidays because this is right before 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:28.840 our Christmas break and I I was kind of confused. 0:29:28.880 --> 0:29:32.160 I was like, oh, nothing, I'm just at home. And 0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:35.760 she's like, okay, well you should really take this time 0:29:35.800 --> 0:29:39.800 to think about your future here with us, and like 0:29:39.960 --> 0:29:45.360 kind of me like stared at me, and I'm like what, Like, 0:29:45.520 --> 0:29:49.160 I what do you mean? And she's like, you know, 0:29:50.520 --> 0:29:53.560 we're changing some things around here and we don't want 0:29:53.600 --> 0:29:55.840 to get rid of you, we don't want to fire you, 0:29:56.320 --> 0:30:00.479 but you should really think about your future here and 0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:05.719 really leaned in and emphasized that and kind of like 0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:09.760 everyone was kind of like looking at me as if like, hey, 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:13.640 we want you to quit, but we're not allowed to 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:19.760 like say anything like that. And I asked my manager. 0:30:19.800 --> 0:30:22.120 I was like, it kind of sounds like you're not 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:27.000 giving me any options here? What am I supposed to 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:30.800 just leave? And they looked at each other and they 0:30:30.880 --> 0:30:32.360 look back at me. You're like, you know, we can't 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:35.400 really say one thing or the other, so you know, 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:38.200 we need your decision by the first and I'm like 0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:43.360 what I It was very it was very tense. It 0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:47.560 was very weird and awkward, and I was very confused 0:30:47.720 --> 0:30:52.200 because I never thought my job was on the line, 0:30:52.720 --> 0:30:55.800 never thought it was gonna be jeopardized. And I kept 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.320 offering them different options. I was like, put me in 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:01.000 front of house. You know, last year I was trained. 0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.160 I was actually supposed to be a manager in our 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:06.640 other kitchen, but they kind of screwed me over on that. 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:10.440 That's a whole different story. Like I know how to 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:15.840 handle purple kitchen. Put me there, like I'm okay going 0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:20.160 from one job immediately into here to save time. And 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:23.960 with every single option I was giving them, they shut 0:31:24.000 --> 0:31:26.000 me down and would not work with me at all. 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:31.880 And then on top of that, they extended my ninety 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:36.240 day period and from doing that, I was no longer 0:31:36.680 --> 0:31:42.200 allowed to get a raise. And yeah, like you have 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:44.920 to finish ninety days and you get a raise, And 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:48.520 I'm like period. That's the policy. Everybody knows that. But 0:31:48.640 --> 0:31:54.240 because my ninety days was extended like probation period, I 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:56.440 was no longer allowed to get a raise. 0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:59.520 And what's funny is they extended my ninety days as well. 0:31:59.560 --> 0:32:02.120 I can talk about that more later, but this is 0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:06.200 it's just it's just odd because Red Kitchen, our kitchen, 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:08.440 which at that point was made up of I think 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:12.240 six people, all vocal union supporters, wore buttons every day. 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:15.959 Yep, we were the most vocal people about it. We 0:32:16.000 --> 0:32:21.000 wore our union buttons every day. We like everybody knows 0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:25.560 that we were firm believers standing up for this union. 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:31.400 And that kind of segues into the furlough situation where 0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:35.320 they all shut down our kitchen. They our whole entire 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:39.920 team are six people of vocal union supporters suddenly no job. 0:32:41.200 --> 0:32:43.960 It's incredibly messed up. And we're going to come back 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:47.240 from more unbelievably messed up stuff after this ad break, 0:32:59.000 --> 0:33:01.120 and we're back going. 0:33:00.920 --> 0:33:02.640 Back to the votes that were challenged. 0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:07.760 The other person who quit was one of the main 0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:10.640 organized She was her and one other person. Where the 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:14.200 people who kicked off all of the organizing at Blue 0:33:14.200 --> 0:33:20.120 Star and basically she they changed around her schedule so 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:23.960 much to kind of force her into quitting. She was 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:27.440 very stressed with school and like just the way that 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:31.000 they kept messing with her made her quit. Basically, she 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:32.840 was afraid that she was going to be fired, so 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:36.040 she went ahead and quit. And so that that was 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:41.479 that other challenged vote. But yeah, the furlough situation is wild. 0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:46.320 And I also got my probation extended. I actually filed 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:50.440 a unfairlyabor practice because of that, Because the reason they 0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:55.080 gave me for extending my probation was that I was 0:33:55.600 --> 0:34:00.000 bringing their words on paper, bringing the vibe down by 0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:06.720 complaining about working conditions. Bringing the vibe down by complaining 0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:08.399 about working conditions, and. 0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:17.319 This is how ridiculous this company is. Third reasons where 0:34:17.320 --> 0:34:20.120 I'm like, this must be the Truman Show, Like this 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:23.439 is not real. Where are the cameras well? 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:26.319 And first of all, complaining about working conditions is a 0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:30.440 federally protected act. I can do that and I cannot 0:34:30.480 --> 0:34:32.399 be punished for that. It is against the law, which 0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:34.840 is why I filed the ULP. Second of all, the 0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:38.560 reason I was complaining is because they had taken us 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:43.200 down from three to four people opening shifts to two 0:34:43.960 --> 0:34:47.640 and the way two people work, Yeah, the way two 0:34:47.680 --> 0:34:50.719 people operates for opening shift in Red Kitchen is one 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:53.720 person is mixing the dough and loading it into the fryer, 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:57.120 and that is a constant thing. Like you you mix 0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:01.920 batches for like four hours like on like back to 0:35:01.920 --> 0:35:04.120 back to back to back to back, and the other 0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:05.800 person has to stand at the end of the conveyor 0:35:05.800 --> 0:35:08.920 belt and take the glazed bites off of the conveyor 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.680 belt and put them onto trays. This is a non 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.440 stop job. You cannot even walk away for a few seconds. 0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:17.000 And when you know. 0:35:17.000 --> 0:35:20.600 Typically, like the best practice that was done the entire 0:35:20.640 --> 0:35:23.200 time I was there up to this was that you 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:25.719 did not do that position for more than an hour 0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:29.560 because it was physically difficult to stand in one place 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:32.920 like that and do that and do those repetitive motions. 0:35:33.239 --> 0:35:35.000 And two, it's like fucking. 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:38.279 Psychological torture because you're in the corner of this room. 0:35:38.680 --> 0:35:41.879 You're not speaking to anybody. You're literally just staring at 0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:45.640 your own hands. I mean, it's it's not like nobody 0:35:45.680 --> 0:35:48.080 likes to they call it catching. Nobody likes to catch. 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:52.080 And I was doing this for up to three hours 0:35:52.560 --> 0:35:58.040 a day, uninterrupted and I have sciatic nerve issues with 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:01.080 my leg and I you know, I made them aware 0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:04.680 of this multiple multiple times. I cannot catch for more 0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:07.600 than an hour at a time, and you know what 0:36:07.640 --> 0:36:09.239 I was doing catching. 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:09.879 For three hours every day. 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:11.000 So they're just trying to injury. 0:36:11.120 --> 0:36:13.279 So that's what I was, yes, and that's what I 0:36:13.320 --> 0:36:16.160 was complaining about. I was saying, I'm in pain. 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:19.480 I'm literally having to go on muscle relaxers every single 0:36:19.560 --> 0:36:22.360 day because of the effect that this is having on 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:26.120 me physically, Like I I can't sleep at night because 0:36:26.120 --> 0:36:29.080 my leg is so tense and it's in so much 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:33.920 pain from fucking catching these donuts and putting them on trays. 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:34.719 It's insane. 0:36:35.400 --> 0:36:40.319 And so you know, they're yet they're penalizing me for 0:36:40.440 --> 0:36:43.560 having the gall to voice the fact that what they're 0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.920 doing is literally ruining my quality of life. 0:36:47.480 --> 0:36:50.959 Really and going off that every single issue we bring 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:54.799 up to management, they have the tone of like, well, 0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:58.359 that sucks, that's a bummer, deal with it, and literally, yeah, 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:02.759 literally just like okay, and we're like, okay, fix it, 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:06.600 because we are human beings with nerves and bones and 0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:10.920 we cannot stand on our feet for this long, like 0:37:11.080 --> 0:37:14.680 it's it's wild, it is. 0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:19.319 And you know that that kind of also segues into 0:37:19.360 --> 0:37:22.520 the furlough thing that we were all very vocal on 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:26.200 union support. You know, I had filed at this point 0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:31.080 two ulps because of the extended probation and because they 0:37:31.320 --> 0:37:36.759 suspended me for three days for something that was absurd, 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:40.759 and I had filed two ulps, and this came like 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:44.360 right on the heels of that second ulp. They you know, 0:37:44.400 --> 0:37:47.840 we had Christmas Day off and I had taken the 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:50.800 next day, the Tuesday off, so I was visiting family 0:37:50.840 --> 0:37:54.440 in Dallas, and I believe everyone else had that Tuesday 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:58.000 off as well. And we come back on that Wednesday, 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:00.680 and you know, we're working a red deer's shift. 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:02.280 About halfway through. 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:04.719 The shift, they say, okay, you know, we're having a 0:38:04.760 --> 0:38:08.640 red kitchen meeting. Everyone come into the office, which that 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:12.040 had never happened before. We never had an all kitchen 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:14.440 meeting like that. They pull us in and you know, 0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:16.759 we're all looking at each other on the way in, like, 0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:18.359 oh fuck, what are they going to do? Like are 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.480 they going to reduce our hours? Are they going to 0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:23.120 fire one of us? You know what's happening? And we 0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:28.320 get in there and head chef Stephanie Thornton says, okay, 0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:32.120 so you know, we've had an issue happen. What's happened 0:38:32.320 --> 0:38:36.040 is our distributors have told us that they are returning 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:38.600 a bunch of our product. It's you know, some of 0:38:38.640 --> 0:38:40.799 it's expired, but most of it is just fine, but 0:38:40.840 --> 0:38:44.560 it's nearing its expiration date, so they're returning it. I'm 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:49.080 saying that m okay, sounds fake, but okay, And then 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:52.759 they say, unfortunately, because of this, because we don't have 0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:56.880 space in our freezer to continue to put product in 0:38:56.880 --> 0:38:59.000 the freezer, to continue to make product and put it 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:01.640 in the freezer, we are having to put you guys 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:05.000 on indefinite furlough. You know, we don't have a return 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:07.440 to work date. We don't have a plan for bringing 0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:11.759 you back. You know, we asked, can we get you know, 0:39:11.800 --> 0:39:13.600 those of us who are cross trained, can we work 0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:16.160 in other areas? Can you cross train those of us 0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:18.759 who aren't, so that we can work up front or 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.320 work at a satellite store. You know, they are literally 0:39:21.400 --> 0:39:25.120 hiring for satellite stores. But they furloughed us, and we 0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:27.520 were asking can we do these other things? And they 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:31.120 said no, point blank no, So all of a sudden, 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:36.000 you know, six people who had jobs, you know, a 0:39:36.040 --> 0:39:39.040 minute or two ago. All of a sudden, we're facing 0:39:39.160 --> 0:39:45.600 For me personally, I'm facing homelessness. That's the reality, you know. 0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:50.120 And we have too our two shift leads. They are 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.640 a couple and they live together and like that is 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:59.040 their entire income. Yeah, and it's just on a kind 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.719 of more personal note, it's wild. And maybe this is 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.640 me being a little bit naive, but it's wild to 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:09.759 have spent months in company with these people and have 0:40:09.920 --> 0:40:12.879 them pretend to care about me and then have them 0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:16.040 do something that quite literally puts my life in danger, 0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:18.440 especially because I had just signed up for healthcare with 0:40:18.480 --> 0:40:22.680 them and I have multiple chronic illnesses. I have to 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:26.200 go to doctors regularly, And all of a sudden, I'm like, 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:31.040 holy shit, my life has completely changed in thirty seconds. 0:40:31.120 --> 0:40:35.560 You know, this is the day after Christmas? What? 0:40:35.760 --> 0:40:37.320 Yeah, the day after Christmas. 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:41.320 We were given two days notice, gez in two days 0:40:41.760 --> 0:40:44.440 starting on January first. You don't have a job, and 0:40:44.480 --> 0:40:47.359 we don't know how long, but you know, we'll let 0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:50.279 you know if we ever are going to do production again, 0:40:50.320 --> 0:40:51.759 and we can bring you back even just for a 0:40:51.760 --> 0:40:55.560 little bit, which they didn't. They started up production again 0:40:56.160 --> 0:40:58.920 and we were not told or called in or anything. 0:40:59.680 --> 0:41:02.800 I touch a little more on our shift leads for 0:41:02.880 --> 0:41:03.400 a second. 0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:04.840 Yes, there are a couple. 0:41:05.120 --> 0:41:09.720 They live together, but much like them, they are basically 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:14.560 they're facing houselessness as well. And luckily they do have 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:19.560 another roommate who can someone cover them, but that can't 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:23.120 last forever. Yeah, and just the other day I had 0:41:23.160 --> 0:41:28.479 to run them groceries. They can't afford anything, and it's 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:36.600 it's a huge buck over for them because they love 0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:42.279 they are so passionate about this job and like they 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:46.840 rely heavily on it, and they got their pay raises 0:41:46.960 --> 0:41:52.600 and their higher positions and more responsibilities, and to be 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:57.799 so betrayed like that from a company quite literally destroyed them. 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:00.399 Are lead. 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:05.359 He had a full breakdown and stormed out and walked out, 0:42:05.920 --> 0:42:10.480 and it affected them so heavily and so emotionally and 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:15.880 still mentally, and they keep trying to, you know, find 0:42:15.920 --> 0:42:21.560 other jobs, and you know, still in contact. Just yesterday 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:25.600 they sent me a screenshot of them talking to chef 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:29.279 and being like, hey, is there any updates? Is there 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:33.200 you know, any way we can come get our job 0:42:33.280 --> 0:42:36.640 back because you know, we're still waiting for you to 0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:40.799 tell us literally anything. And Chef said, oh, we don't know. 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:44.320 We can't give you an answer right now, and just 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:45.399 kind of brushed it off. 0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:51.080 And one thing that's particularly insulting is that they ended 0:42:51.120 --> 0:42:52.920 this meeting with us where they were telling us we 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.880 were losing our jobs by giving us a sheet of 0:42:55.880 --> 0:43:00.120 paper on how to file for unemployment in Oregon. And 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:03.880 the thing with an indefinite furlough, if you don't have 0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:07.440 a return to work date, then you have to go. 0:43:07.680 --> 0:43:09.920 You have to jump through the hoops of applying for 0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:14.520 jobs while you're like in order to get unemployment. So like, 0:43:14.560 --> 0:43:16.680 if you're if you have a return to work date 0:43:16.719 --> 0:43:19.400 and it's within four weeks of the uh, you know, 0:43:19.480 --> 0:43:22.359 the day that you got furloughed, you can get unemployment 0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:23.080 for that time. 0:43:23.200 --> 0:43:26.000 And you don't. You can just hang out and get unemployment. 0:43:26.400 --> 0:43:28.560 If you don't have a return to work date, you 0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:30.560 have to treat it as a layoff and you have 0:43:30.640 --> 0:43:34.560 to be making at like conscious efforts to job hunt 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:37.160 every single week. You have to record those efforts. If 0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:39.600 you get an interview, you have to take it. If 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:41.560 you get a position offered, to you. You have to 0:43:41.600 --> 0:43:44.160 take it, and it has to be in the field 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.439 that you got that you got furloughed from, and there's 0:43:47.440 --> 0:43:50.799 all these very specific rules and it just makes it 0:43:50.840 --> 0:43:53.320 incredibly difficult, you know, all these hoops you have to 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:59.120 jump through. It's dehumanizing, it's fucked up, and it's insulting, and. 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:02.680 There is no support other than that. If you support, 0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:07.000 there's no severance package. There was no like short in 0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:10.279 the meeting, they're like, yeah, sorry, guys, this sucks, but 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:14.720 like it just didn't feel real, like this full situation 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:16.400 was not empathetic at all. 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:18.920 And like obvious, and you know, you could tell their 0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:21.880 excuses bullshit because like okay, like let let let's say 0:44:22.040 --> 0:44:24.319 what they were saying was real that like, okay, they 0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:25.680 got a bunch of stuff return and they don't have 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:30.080 room in their freezers. It's been a month. They should now, 0:44:30.200 --> 0:44:33.399 there's no way that they now still do not have 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:35.240 room in their freezers. 0:44:35.680 --> 0:44:40.359 Like what Well, and here's the here's the kicker is 0:44:40.400 --> 0:44:44.680 that we were for maybe them a month, maybe over 0:44:44.760 --> 0:44:47.839 a month really since we filed the union petition, since 0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:50.880 we handed them the petition, we had ramped up production 0:44:51.120 --> 0:44:54.200 even though we were in the slow season, and we 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:57.840 were not actually like the bites that we were making 0:44:58.440 --> 0:45:01.319 were not ordered by anyone. We were just putting. We 0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:04.120 were making extra to put in the freezer. 0:45:05.520 --> 0:45:10.120 Not only the freezer, but they rented a whole entire warehouse. 0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:12.280 We have a strategy. 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.439 Yeah, So they they did this, you know, I don't 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:18.120 want to say they did this on purpose, but it 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.520 is mighty suspicious to me that they're that they're building 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:25.600 up these these you know, bites in the freezer when 0:45:25.640 --> 0:45:28.040 they didn't need them, when they didn't have orders for them, 0:45:28.360 --> 0:45:30.319 and now all of a sudden, oh, we don't have room. 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:32.160 In the freezer, we have to let you go, you know. 0:45:32.440 --> 0:45:35.480 Yeah, yeah, oddly convenient. 0:45:35.880 --> 0:45:36.879 It is. It is. 0:45:36.920 --> 0:45:40.359 And that really ramped up when they when we gave 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:42.719 them the union petition November seventeenth. 0:45:42.520 --> 0:45:46.440 Yeah, which is just really very blatant retaliation. 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:48.640 Yeah. 0:45:48.719 --> 0:45:54.080 Yeah, And I have filed an unfair labor practice for 0:45:54.320 --> 0:45:57.120 it's called what they call a lockout for the you know, 0:45:57.239 --> 0:46:01.879 us being furloughed, and it, like you said, it really 0:46:01.960 --> 0:46:05.520 is blatant, especially given that you know, even walking. 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:07.919 Into that meeting, all of us were wearing our union buttons. 0:46:08.480 --> 0:46:12.760 I just why would you lay off an entire department, 0:46:13.120 --> 0:46:16.920 especially when that department is what is keeping your business afloat, 0:46:17.320 --> 0:46:19.440 Like that is the money maker for Blue Star is 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:22.320 those wholesale bites, and we've. 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.440 Been told that all the time. It's like these donut 0:46:25.440 --> 0:46:29.879 bytes make the money. So make that makes sense? Then 0:46:29.960 --> 0:46:34.279 why are you shutting down that money maker? And the 0:46:34.400 --> 0:46:37.520 other kitchen and front of house are like are still 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:41.080 there still during production, like not touched by this at all. 0:46:43.120 --> 0:46:44.800 Yeah, And that's one of these things you get with 0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:46.799 employers all the time where it's like, well, okay, so 0:46:46.840 --> 0:46:50.600 employers very very clearly and obviously know where the money 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:52.760 is made. They know exactly where the money is made, 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:55.880 literally up until the moments that you start asking for 0:46:56.040 --> 0:46:58.319 more of the money you're making them, at which point 0:46:58.360 --> 0:47:03.080 suddenly like, oh who knows money comes from? Yeah, yeah, 0:47:03.800 --> 0:47:04.239 you have. 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:07.640 No money, even though the CEO has like at least 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.120 three Tesla's totally oh. 0:47:09.960 --> 0:47:13.880 My god, yeah, like Katie Pope can't take a little 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:15.640 bit of a pay cut so that you know, we 0:47:15.680 --> 0:47:18.400 can all keep our jobs and you know, survive. 0:47:19.120 --> 0:47:20.080 It's wild. 0:47:20.680 --> 0:47:22.320 Yeah, and like, and I mean this is one of 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:25.279 the other things too, is that like businesses, you know, 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:28.799 this is this is the the way capitalism works, is 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:33.600 that business businesses would rather fucking lose money than have 0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:38.400 their employees have slightly like not be intobilitating pain, not 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:40.520 be sick, and get slightly more money. 0:47:42.000 --> 0:47:47.040 Yeah, it is crazy to me because this whole you know, 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:50.400 they're they're hiring all these lawyers to to you know, 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:54.400 you know, handle the union stuff, and I'm like, you 0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:56.560 shut down Red Kitchen, you hire these lawyers, You're doing 0:47:56.560 --> 0:47:58.560 all these efforts, and I'm like, you would have saved 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:02.720 so much money if you just recognize our fucking union, 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:04.880 Like that's how easy it is, you know. 0:48:05.360 --> 0:48:09.680 And not only that, we have what five shops in Portland, 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:12.839 we have a shop in la as well, Los Angeles 0:48:13.040 --> 0:48:18.640 where prices are extravagant, like they have money. We know 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:22.439 they have money, and we're honestly at the point, I'm 0:48:22.440 --> 0:48:25.120 at the point of show me your books, show me, 0:48:25.400 --> 0:48:27.640 prove to me that you do not have this money, 0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:31.959 because then that would be a different discussion. Like it's 0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:41.439 just it's frustrating. It's typical corporate business, and I'm over it. 0:48:41.560 --> 0:48:43.600 And the I'm over it for how they treat me. 0:48:43.719 --> 0:48:46.920 I'm over how they treat my friends, my team. It's 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:52.320 it's ridiculous and they should know better, honestly. 0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:54.280 Yeah. 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.160 Yeah, So is there anything else that you two want 0:48:57.200 --> 0:48:58.000 to make sure you get in? 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:00.880 Maybe just the gofund me? 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:02.640 Yeah, yeah, how. 0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:04.920 Can people support you support the union? 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:08.520 Yeah, so we have a go fund me set up 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:11.399 for the six furload workers to provide a month's worth 0:49:11.440 --> 0:49:16.360 of income two weeks for the employees who quit early, 0:49:16.960 --> 0:49:20.480 and that is it's called Help Loose our Employees Fight 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:23.840 Union Investing. And right now we're at just under one 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:26.880 thousand dollars. Our goal for all six of those people's 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:31.160 incomes for a month is fifteen thousand, just under sixteen thousand. 0:49:31.600 --> 0:49:34.359 You know, I don't know if we'll ever reach that goal, 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:36.439 but you know, the as much as we can get 0:49:36.520 --> 0:49:40.520 is great because right now, you know, I'm surviving on cereal. 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:43.920 I know that the shift leads we were talking about earlier, 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:45.000 you know, they're getting. 0:49:44.719 --> 0:49:47.040 Groceries from lydia. People are struggling. 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.640 Yeah, yeah, I was definitely in my Survivor era on 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:54.879 rice and beans. It was it's really tough, and you know, 0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:58.279 it is a big goal realistically, it is, but yeah, 0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:01.480 you know not to sound desperate, I think, but truly 0:50:01.800 --> 0:50:04.800 every little bit helps. If you can really only afford 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:07.719 five or ten bucks, we'll take it. That is, we're 0:50:07.880 --> 0:50:13.879 so grateful for anything. And it's it's people's lives. It's 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:17.959 literally people's lives. Multiple people are facing not being able 0:50:18.000 --> 0:50:22.000 to have a roof over their head because of this company. 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:25.520 So truly, any little bit helps. 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:30.319 Yeah, so please go help them out. I I don't 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:36.160 know this it it's just really really brutal too and 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:40.440 especially like again, like this is also a fucking terrible time, 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:43.319 Like there's there's never a good time to like be 0:50:43.400 --> 0:50:46.880 at risk of losing your home. Winter is especially fucking 0:50:46.880 --> 0:50:49.719 bad for that. There are yeah, so there there's so many. 0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:52.120 There are so many sort of terrible compounding things that 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:55.160 these union that these union busting companies are sort of 0:50:55.200 --> 0:51:00.319 relying on to screw over and intimidate and hurt the 0:51:00.360 --> 0:51:03.080 people who make them all their fucking money. 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:04.440 So well, and that's what it did. 0:51:04.680 --> 0:51:07.759 It scared a lot of people into unfortunately voting no. 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:10.239 It scared a lot of people who were really involved, 0:51:10.560 --> 0:51:13.600 you know, in the organizing process to step back and 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:16.160 you know, not respond to our text messages and not 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:19.799 continue to advocate for the union. It you know that 0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:23.960 us getting furloughed really fucked with our whole union campaign. 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:28.560 So yeah, go go, go, give, go, go, give these 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:31.799 workers your supports. They really need it, and yeah, go 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:35.560 you know, and one thing again like that needs to 0:51:35.600 --> 0:51:37.560 sort of we need to sort of emphasize, is that 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:40.880 this is illegal. They cannot fucking they legally cannot do this, 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:44.600 but you know this is this is one of the 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:47.200 things that is fucking hard about union organizing is that 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:51.839 the law, assuming the law does like ever fucking catch 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:53.280 up to these people. It takes time. 0:51:54.280 --> 0:51:57.479 And yeah, there is one little thing I do want 0:51:57.520 --> 0:52:01.399 to make sure people know about because we just found 0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:04.480 this out pretty recently. While we were doing shop visits. 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:08.920 They have jars for tips that say tips are shared 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:10.360 with the kitchen. They're not. 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:12.480 Yeah, that's not true. 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:13.560 That's not true. 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:16.799 We saw no tips, and there was an instance where 0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:20.520 we accidentally got tips, and one by one we were 0:52:20.560 --> 0:52:23.759 sent to the back to sign a form saying this 0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:27.719 was an accident, you are not gaining tips. Sign this, 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:34.600 and they took our tips away. It's not fair. And 0:52:34.640 --> 0:52:36.839 on top of that, they're lying to the public. They're 0:52:36.920 --> 0:52:39.600 lying to their customers that kitchen is gaining tips when 0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:39.920 we're not. 0:52:41.200 --> 0:52:45.440 Yeah, and I will say, in addition to the GoFundMe, 0:52:45.880 --> 0:52:48.000 we do have you know, if you're not able to 0:52:48.040 --> 0:52:51.360 support monetarily, we do have a Twitter and an Instagram 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:53.759 where we post updates if you want to follow along 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.160 with our progress and see you know, how our election 0:52:56.239 --> 0:52:59.360 goes and everything. It's just on both Twitter and or 0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:05.160 excuse me and Instagram. It is at DWU Underscore Blue Star. 0:53:05.440 --> 0:53:07.400 So yeah, well we'll have we'll have links to all 0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:08.240 this out of the description. 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:11.840 Awesome. Word of mouth is really the biggest thing, even 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:17.080 going off again, like, if you can't support us financially, 0:53:17.280 --> 0:53:20.240 you can just share the go fundme through friends, family, whoever, 0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:22.120 and just spread it out there. 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:26.680 Yeah, and so go go go do that. Yeah, go 0:53:26.760 --> 0:53:30.400 help any way you can. And yeah, go go go 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.920 fight your own bosses because they're screwing you, like screwing 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:37.279 you in very similar ways. What's happening here two? Yeah, 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:39.040 and this is the spy nicket up in here. You 0:53:39.040 --> 0:53:41.879 can find us at Twitter and Instagram at happen here 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:44.640 pod and you can find more clos Obdia shows at 0:53:44.960 --> 0:53:48.960 closeid Media. Yeah, go go go into the world and 0:53:49.000 --> 0:53:51.640 make life worse for people who do terrible stuff. 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:08.520 Hi, everyone, and welcome to it could Happen here podcast 0:54:08.640 --> 0:54:11.440 about how things are falling apart and people trying to 0:54:11.480 --> 0:54:14.319 put them back together. Today, more in the how things 0:54:14.320 --> 0:54:17.240 are Falling apart category. We are talking about the border 0:54:17.239 --> 0:54:19.799 again and I'm joined by Gen Budd, who you've heard 0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:22.000 from before, but just a reminder. Jen is a former 0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:24.920 senior patrol agent with the Border Patrol and now an 0:54:24.920 --> 0:54:26.040 immigrant rights activist. 0:54:26.360 --> 0:54:29.360 Welcome to the show, Jo, Thanks for having me again. 0:54:29.880 --> 0:54:33.920 Yeah, you're welcome. So we're gathered here today, I guess 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:39.800 to talk about this ridiculous spectacle of the Texas National 0:54:39.840 --> 0:54:46.120 Guard occupying some border adjacent land. The border as right 0:54:46.160 --> 0:54:48.160 down the middle of the river there, so they're not 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:50.960 actually occupying that the physical border, right, they're occupying that 0:54:51.080 --> 0:54:53.200 the nearest land spot to it is that right. 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:57.320 Correct, The border in that area is in the middle 0:54:57.400 --> 0:54:57.919 of the river. 0:54:58.400 --> 0:55:03.920 Yeah, and preventing Border patrol from accessing the river. And 0:55:04.000 --> 0:55:06.560 I think, like we were just talking before we recorded, 0:55:06.600 --> 0:55:09.160 but the reporting on this has been a bit kind 0:55:09.200 --> 0:55:11.359 of slap shot. A lot of it have just been 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:13.960 social media posting so I was hoping that you could 0:55:14.000 --> 0:55:17.759 help us understand, like a this isn't like like a 0:55:17.800 --> 0:55:22.719 standoff between Texas and the Border patrol, right, but it's 0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:26.319 not like Texas kind of swept in and suddenly they 0:55:26.320 --> 0:55:29.120 were there and they weren't there before it. Border patrol 0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:31.920 had to allow this to happen. To agree, is that 0:55:32.000 --> 0:55:32.560 fair to say? 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:36.160 I think it's fair to say. I mean, at the moment, 0:55:36.440 --> 0:55:40.400 I think the administration is trying to portray that, you know, 0:55:40.440 --> 0:55:43.600 the Border Patrol tried to come out there and rescue. 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:47.799 I think the latest I've heard is that reportedly there 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:51.239 were six people in the river that were surrounding and 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:57.560 they went to go rescue them, and the Texas Military 0:55:57.800 --> 0:56:02.200 the I guess Texas National Are ended up blocking them 0:56:02.360 --> 0:56:04.960 and saying they can't go. Now, this park is a 0:56:05.080 --> 0:56:08.359 very well known park that during the Trump administration they 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:10.319 were trying to build a wall. They've been wanting a 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:14.440 wall there, but the people in that city, I believe 0:56:14.440 --> 0:56:17.839 it's equal pass is that they you know, they don't 0:56:17.840 --> 0:56:21.719 want a wall there. That's the city park and they 0:56:21.760 --> 0:56:25.160 just don't want a wall right there. And so Greg 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:30.520 Abbott has sent in Texas National Guard to put up 0:56:30.560 --> 0:56:34.719 all the razor wire, all the you know, plotation devices 0:56:34.760 --> 0:56:38.160 with she would call it a sal blade on the 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:41.680 middle of it that they claim saves lives. All this 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:47.600 stuff apparently is rescue technique stuff, and they claim it 0:56:47.600 --> 0:56:52.279 it saves more lives than it hurts. And so the 0:56:52.360 --> 0:56:56.040 people that put out this stuff to injure people or 0:56:56.080 --> 0:56:58.880 claiming that they didn't allow people to drown. So I 0:56:58.920 --> 0:57:01.480 find that hard to believe. But at the same time, 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:04.920 the Border Patrol is the Border Patrol is always silent, 0:57:05.400 --> 0:57:07.480 you know, they are always silent about this. They let 0:57:07.520 --> 0:57:11.680 CBP talk to talk for them. They'll let the administration 0:57:11.880 --> 0:57:15.920 talk for them. The Union is claiming that Greg Abbott 0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:18.000 is the best thing in the world. They think it's 0:57:18.040 --> 0:57:22.560 great that he stopped their own agents from rescuing a 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:25.640 woman and two children. So apparently three of the people 0:57:25.680 --> 0:57:29.160 got back to shore on the Mexican side, and then 0:57:29.360 --> 0:57:31.800 the woman and two children ended up drowning and their 0:57:31.840 --> 0:57:37.120 bodies were found on the Mexican side. Texas military is 0:57:37.160 --> 0:57:39.760 claiming that when they were notified that people were in 0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:42.400 the river, they went and they shined lights and they looked, 0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:47.160 but they didn't see anything. We did have the I 0:57:47.200 --> 0:57:49.560 don't know if it was Texas military. It was in 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:53.600 the area of the state of Texas on the same 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:58.600 Rio or Grande, where some either National Guard or Texas 0:57:58.640 --> 0:58:02.720 National Guard or military or somebody just was sitting in 0:58:02.760 --> 0:58:04.520 a boat in front of a woman with a child 0:58:04.640 --> 0:58:06.880 and she was starting to sink into the sand because 0:58:06.920 --> 0:58:11.400 it's like quicksand over there, and they wouldn't rescue her, 0:58:11.400 --> 0:58:14.280 and Border patrol drove by really fast and put away, 0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:17.400 So it's not surprising that they wouldn't go rescue them. 0:58:17.760 --> 0:58:20.080 This is the first time that they publicly said that 0:58:20.120 --> 0:58:23.160 they've had a confrontation with a border patrol. But I 0:58:23.160 --> 0:58:26.320 don't think the Border Patrol tried very hard to rescue them. 0:58:26.360 --> 0:58:27.920 I mean they do have boats and stuff. 0:58:28.880 --> 0:58:35.160 Yeah they have yeah, yeah, they're there are many way helicopters. Yeah, 0:58:35.480 --> 0:58:39.000 they have lots of equipment to rescue people sometimes just 0:58:40.320 --> 0:58:41.920 let's desire, shall we say? 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:46.880 Yeah, And I mean it's to me the interesting thing 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:53.240 is watching democratic politicians point their fingers at Greg Abbott, 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:56.360 and rightly so for this, for this scene, but yet 0:58:56.480 --> 0:58:58.960 at the same time, what the Border Patrol does every day, 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:01.760 their deterrence pulse these every day kill people every day, 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:04.240 so the Border Patrol is not doing anything different. So 0:59:04.320 --> 0:59:06.080 to act like, oh my god, we didn't get out 0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:08.800 to save these migrants and we really wanted to is 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:11.520 kind of like, well, I mean, people die probably every 0:59:11.520 --> 0:59:14.760 hour crossing that river and you haven't cured before, and 0:59:14.800 --> 0:59:18.080 we've been doing it since nineteen ninety four. So it's 0:59:18.160 --> 0:59:21.560 kind of it's kind of hard to get really upset 0:59:22.920 --> 0:59:27.720 at Greg Abbott, who's doing nothing but what the National 0:59:27.800 --> 0:59:31.920 Border Patrol has done for, you know, thirty something years. 0:59:32.320 --> 0:59:34.280 And at the same time, the victims are always the 0:59:34.400 --> 0:59:38.080 migrants that you know. That's what we should be upset about, 0:59:38.120 --> 0:59:42.000 is that our policies, whether federal or state, are killing 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:45.040 people who are seeking asylum and seeking safety. That's what 0:59:45.120 --> 0:59:45.440 it is. 0:59:45.920 --> 0:59:48.760 Yeah, exactly. I think like this attempt to make it 0:59:49.120 --> 0:59:53.600 like Republican governor is killing migrants thing is an attempt 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:56.640 to like distract us from the fact that democratic president 0:59:56.720 --> 1:00:00.480 is killing migrants in much greater numbers just by virtue 1:00:00.520 --> 1:00:04.720 of the amount of land covered by you know, Biden's 1:00:04.760 --> 1:00:09.360 jurisdiction compared to Abbots. But yeah, I think it's very hypocritical. 1:00:10.360 --> 1:00:12.680 And it's it's funny to you in that or I'm 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:15.200 not funny but ironic, and that the Border Patrolley Union 1:00:15.240 --> 1:00:19.600 is putting out the numbers of when Trump's last year 1:00:20.120 --> 1:00:23.520 as president of death on the southern border, and these 1:00:23.520 --> 1:00:26.040 are just the ones that they find, not yeah, the 1:00:26.080 --> 1:00:28.880 actual number, which is usually three to four times as many. 1:00:29.480 --> 1:00:32.080 And then they're saying, oh, look in Biden's year, this 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:35.360 has been twenty twenty three was the most deadly year. 1:00:35.480 --> 1:00:38.080 But it's like, you know, you guys never cared about 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:40.360 how many people were dying before, and now the sudden 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:42.840 you're like, you're killing more Miran than anybody else. 1:00:44.080 --> 1:00:45.760 Are you jealous? What's the deal? 1:00:46.640 --> 1:00:48.960 Yeah, like the idea that these people that can send 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:51.040 that they're like in a cumba. They keep people in 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:53.120 open air attention for up to a week and in 1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:56.640 the freezing cold. You know, in San Diego Santasedro, people 1:00:56.720 --> 1:01:00.320 are two people have died Santa Sedro, one person has died. 1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:03.560 In the number probably dozens more people have died crossing 1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:07.640 in other routes that we haven't seen this year. It's 1:01:07.760 --> 1:01:10.720 it's been not as wet as previous winters. But just 1:01:10.760 --> 1:01:14.760 in my just in this week, I've seen people in 1:01:14.880 --> 1:01:19.040 extremely dire medical distress. And I've seen border patrol scream 1:01:19.080 --> 1:01:20.960 at those people and scream that people trying to help 1:01:21.000 --> 1:01:23.440 those people, and not do anything to help. So I'm 1:01:23.480 --> 1:01:25.400 finding it hard to buy that this is all Greg 1:01:25.440 --> 1:01:27.720 greg Abbott's fault, not that Greg Abbott is't a piece 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:31.840 of shit. Yeah, I think we're in agreement on that, 1:01:32.240 --> 1:01:35.880 but like, yeah, the the attempt to lay all the 1:01:35.880 --> 1:01:37.720 blame at Greg abbots feet and suggests that there is 1:01:37.760 --> 1:01:41.880 a complete bipartisan agreement it seems, on killing migrants even 1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:47.200 like we don't see in the Trump era, we saw, 1:01:47.360 --> 1:01:50.640 you know, AOC turn up and cry at the you know, 1:01:50.840 --> 1:01:53.880 unaccompanied children or the other separation of family separation attention, 1:01:54.160 --> 1:01:56.360 and we don't even see that anymore, Like we don't 1:01:57.040 --> 1:02:00.760 have any ear of that. And that's reflect in the press, right, 1:02:00.760 --> 1:02:02.800 we don't see anywhere near as much coverage of the 1:02:02.840 --> 1:02:06.360 brutality at the border as we used to. One thing 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:08.160 that you've mentioned before we started with that you had 1:02:08.280 --> 1:02:12.680 there's some like there's pretty clear case law or Supreme 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:15.840 Court decisions at least about like what BP could have 1:02:15.920 --> 1:02:18.880 done or what their rights are visa VI. The National Guard, 1:02:18.960 --> 1:02:22.200 could you explain some fat well as. 1:02:22.280 --> 1:02:27.200 Clear immigration precedent. So in eighteen seventy five, so prior 1:02:27.280 --> 1:02:29.800 to the Civil War, a little bit after the Civil War, 1:02:30.400 --> 1:02:34.040 states had always done their own immigration. So if you 1:02:34.080 --> 1:02:36.400 showed up in a boat on New Orleans in New 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:39.760 Orleans Harbor, they would have their own immigration. You would 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:42.840 have to pay a lot of times. In the California area, 1:02:43.040 --> 1:02:48.280 California was charging, especially Chinese migrants who were coming over 1:02:48.360 --> 1:02:52.120 for the railroad and the gold Rush and things like that. 1:02:52.600 --> 1:02:57.280 When they brought groups of Chinese women over, then California 1:02:57.280 --> 1:03:02.000 would label the ball as prostitutes and no good people, 1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:04.640 and then they would put them in jail and then 1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:08.400 find the captain of the ship like five hundred dollars 1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:11.600 a person, which is by today's standards it's like over 1:03:11.680 --> 1:03:15.120 fourteen thousand dollars, such a lot of money. Yeah, yeah, 1:03:15.320 --> 1:03:19.320 And so one of the one of the female migrants 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:22.040 in eighteen seventy five, So you had no right to 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:25.040 hold us in jail. You don't have this right. There's 1:03:25.120 --> 1:03:28.320 nothing that says that you have this right according to 1:03:29.320 --> 1:03:31.800 US law back then. And so the case is called 1:03:31.960 --> 1:03:39.640 Chai cchy Lung Lung versus freemen. And in eighteen seventy five. 1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:44.720 The Supreme Court decision was that immigration is solely the 1:03:44.720 --> 1:03:49.760 federal government's right to enforce and not the states, simply 1:03:49.800 --> 1:03:53.560 because of diplomatic relations. Also that we have treaties with 1:03:53.640 --> 1:03:57.040 other countries, and we have relationships with other countries, and 1:03:57.080 --> 1:04:00.680 they believe that while allowing states to do their own 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:04.680 immigration would then hurt the United States in diplomacy with 1:04:04.760 --> 1:04:08.120 these other countries. And then the other thing that they 1:04:08.200 --> 1:04:11.720 mentioned was that there have been no due process given 1:04:11.840 --> 1:04:15.320 to the migrants during the time, and that's sufforded to migrants, 1:04:15.320 --> 1:04:21.040 whether they're undocumented or not, based on the Constitution. And 1:04:21.040 --> 1:04:24.040 then recently in two thousand. The most recent time that 1:04:24.040 --> 1:04:26.760 it was brought up was in twenty twelve when Arizona 1:04:26.840 --> 1:04:30.360 sued the United States. The Supreme Court upheld in that 1:04:30.560 --> 1:04:35.360 case that law enforcement can question citizenship during a legal stop, 1:04:35.760 --> 1:04:40.120 but denied other parts of the Arizona law SB. Ten 1:04:40.280 --> 1:04:45.080 seventy which allowed their peace officers to act like immigration officers. 1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:46.880 And they said, the reason why they can't do that, 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:49.480 which is what greg Abbott is doing. The reason why 1:04:49.560 --> 1:04:52.320 Supreme Court said they can't do that in twenty twelve 1:04:52.840 --> 1:04:56.320 was because of Article six clause two, which states that 1:04:56.360 --> 1:05:01.080 the Constitution federal laws treaties made under federal authority take 1:05:01.200 --> 1:05:09.040 priority over state laws. So it's, you know, the supremacy clause. Basically, 1:05:09.040 --> 1:05:12.480 it's what it is. And so it's kind of like 1:05:13.080 --> 1:05:15.560 what Trump did when he was in office, where he 1:05:15.640 --> 1:05:19.840 starts separating children, and he starts putting everybody he crosses 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:23.800 the border, whether it's for asylum or for nefarious reasons, 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:26.280 in between the courts. He we'd take away their children. 1:05:26.480 --> 1:05:29.760 And I mean, that was in violation of the nineteen 1:05:29.800 --> 1:05:33.200 eighty Refugee Act, and yet nobody really fought it on 1:05:33.240 --> 1:05:35.320 that basis. I'm not sure why they didn't find it 1:05:35.360 --> 1:05:37.400 on that basis. I'm not an attorney, so I can't 1:05:37.400 --> 1:05:41.520 tell you, but at least you know this this decision 1:05:41.640 --> 1:05:44.840 Chai Lung versus Freeman, It's been around since eighteen seventy 1:05:44.840 --> 1:05:47.360 five and was brought up in twenty twelve, and the 1:05:47.400 --> 1:05:51.400 Supreme Court awesome used Chai Lung to make its argument 1:05:51.520 --> 1:05:55.120 of why Arizona couldn't have certain parts of SB ten 1:05:55.280 --> 1:05:58.920 seventy out. So what Greg Abbott is doing is the 1:05:59.040 --> 1:06:01.200 same thing Trump is, and is like, oh, will break 1:06:01.240 --> 1:06:04.120 the law, and you can take me to court and 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:06.400 we'll see if this court agrees with what the last 1:06:06.400 --> 1:06:08.640 court said. So they're just breaking the law and then 1:06:08.680 --> 1:06:11.920 enduring people to take them to court is simply what 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:14.280 they're doing. In in the middle of this. Obviously the 1:06:14.320 --> 1:06:17.880 migrants are caught, the humanitarian organizations and everybody's caught. It 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:20.640 causes chaos, basically, is what it's doing. 1:06:21.240 --> 1:06:24.480 Yeah, it's causing an absolute mess at the border. And 1:06:24.520 --> 1:06:28.240 I think understandably what you hear from migrants is like, 1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:34.960 the people who are better informed, who have access to information, resources, finances, 1:06:35.560 --> 1:06:37.560 are telling me that they don't want to go to Texas, 1:06:37.840 --> 1:06:42.320 right because right, it's a mess, and it's a mess 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:45.680 that kills people. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be. 1:06:45.720 --> 1:06:48.240 It's supposed to be uncertain, and it's supposed to be cruel, 1:06:48.680 --> 1:06:50.920 and so people who have the chance to you will 1:06:50.960 --> 1:06:53.919 come here. People who can't afford to right that they're 1:06:53.920 --> 1:06:58.400 coming north directly and it sort of takes us is there, 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:01.520 you know, if they head directly north, but that that's 1:07:01.560 --> 1:07:03.840 where they end up. Texas has a huge amount of border. 1:07:03.880 --> 1:07:06.920 Of course, then they're the people who tend to be 1:07:07.800 --> 1:07:10.800 the ones who are forced across there, and unfortunately that's 1:07:10.840 --> 1:07:13.200 realotten the much higher as you said, at much higher 1:07:13.200 --> 1:07:16.280 death rate. Right, Nick, it's do you have a sense 1:07:16.320 --> 1:07:18.600 of like I suppose it will be hard to tell 1:07:18.640 --> 1:07:21.840 because we have very little and were proper statistics, but like, 1:07:21.920 --> 1:07:26.200 what is the most fatal kind of part of the border. 1:07:27.280 --> 1:07:33.320 It's difficult to tell if it's the Sonoran Desert or 1:07:33.360 --> 1:07:36.120 if it's the Rio Grande River. And I say that 1:07:36.200 --> 1:07:39.200 because we don't see half the bodies, or we probably 1:07:39.200 --> 1:07:41.440 don't see ninety percent of the bodies. 1:07:42.280 --> 1:07:45.120 Yeah, I know a lot of deaths are on the 1:07:45.120 --> 1:07:50.480 t reservation to reservation in there's. 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:54.400 The bombing very goldwater bombing area that nobody's allowed in, 1:07:54.480 --> 1:07:56.840 but when they are occasionally allowed in, they find like 1:07:56.920 --> 1:08:00.560 groups of thirteen fifteen skeletons. 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:00.840 And stuff like that. 1:08:01.400 --> 1:08:05.880 So I think it's a tassa between the Sonoran Desert 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:09.320 and the Rio Grande River. The other problem with Texas's 1:08:09.400 --> 1:08:14.360 border is that primarily the majority of the property on 1:08:14.760 --> 1:08:18.320 the border in Texas is private property, and they tend 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:21.639 to be very large ranches which may be no ranch 1:08:21.680 --> 1:08:24.919 hand or anybody goes out, you know, through the acres 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:27.920 to see this, and they might never ever find the bodies. 1:08:27.960 --> 1:08:30.360 It's kind of like the Sonoran desert and po nation 1:08:31.320 --> 1:08:33.400 and then the bombing range and then just the fact 1:08:33.439 --> 1:08:36.200 that the desert will just destroy the bones pretty quickly, 1:08:36.280 --> 1:08:40.599 especially once the winds cover thinks up that we have 1:08:40.800 --> 1:08:43.920 a fair amount and Campo, as you know, in the 1:08:44.160 --> 1:08:48.120 Hakamba Campo wilderness area and the mountains and the Laguna Mountains. 1:08:48.760 --> 1:08:51.360 But I don't think it's near as bad because you 1:08:51.400 --> 1:08:53.759 can look at those mountains and see how bad they are, 1:08:54.160 --> 1:08:56.719 and most people don't want to dare across those mountains, 1:08:56.760 --> 1:09:00.960 but many still do. Obviously I worked up there. You 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:04.960 you're familiar with that area, and so we have more 1:09:04.960 --> 1:09:08.920 than our fair share for certain. Yeah, but I would 1:09:08.960 --> 1:09:14.120 say I would say probably it's between Texas the Rio 1:09:14.200 --> 1:09:16.840 Grande and then the Sonora doesn't. 1:09:16.520 --> 1:09:18.880 For sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that 1:09:18.960 --> 1:09:21.200 makes sense. It's probably a good time for us to 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:25.479 break the border. Is getting people. These adverts probably aren't, 1:09:25.520 --> 1:09:28.000 but they're still not great. So you enjoy these products 1:09:28.000 --> 1:09:41.920 and services. All Right, we are back, and Jen, I 1:09:42.000 --> 1:09:46.200 wanted to ask, like, with regard to these I think 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:47.600 there's a couple of things that people might not be 1:09:47.640 --> 1:09:49.799 clear on. We've tried to explain them on the podcast before. 1:09:50.240 --> 1:09:54.000 The first is like Border Patrol will always say that 1:09:54.080 --> 1:09:57.680 all the BP agents are first responders, right, It's this 1:09:57.840 --> 1:10:01.840 line that they have, and like do they like in 1:10:01.960 --> 1:10:05.280 terms of rescues, are they sort of like technically obliged 1:10:05.439 --> 1:10:07.960 to make rescues. I mean, I've seen people in very 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.519 great stress and I've seen Border Patrol do nothing more 1:10:10.560 --> 1:10:14.400 times than I can count, So like I'm wondering, like 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:17.599 is there some kind of like technical obligation that they 1:10:17.640 --> 1:10:19.960 have that they're just ignoring or is it sort of 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:22.040 at the discretion of the agent whether they think it's safe. 1:10:22.400 --> 1:10:24.439 What's there like official policy there? 1:10:25.160 --> 1:10:26.960 Well, if you're an agent in the field and you 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:30.720 come upon a migrant drowning in the water or you know, 1:10:31.160 --> 1:10:34.200 has slipped and broken their leg and you're trying to 1:10:34.240 --> 1:10:36.640 decide if you should go down into this area or 1:10:36.760 --> 1:10:38.880 jump in the water and stuff, it is up to 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:41.519 the individual agent to decide if they can handle that. 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:45.720 So what you find most often the agents who are 1:10:45.760 --> 1:10:49.519 in the boats and working on either the oceans and border. 1:10:49.560 --> 1:10:51.439 They work on the ocean in California and they work 1:10:51.479 --> 1:10:54.839 on the ocean. Yeah, and then obviously along the Rio Grande. 1:10:55.000 --> 1:10:58.320 All those agents have specific training obviously and swimming. All 1:10:58.320 --> 1:11:00.599 agents have training and swimming, but not at the level 1:11:00.600 --> 1:11:02.479 that the agents who are working on the water deck. 1:11:03.200 --> 1:11:05.080 So you have to go through extra training when you 1:11:05.120 --> 1:11:07.799 take that position. It's like being on a horse patrol. 1:11:07.840 --> 1:11:10.240 You have to go through horse training and so forth. 1:11:10.800 --> 1:11:15.559 But all agents are trained in just basic CPR, just 1:11:15.760 --> 1:11:19.240 basic splinting, that kind of first aid stuff. But not 1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:23.320 all agents are what they call it, not Vortech, but 1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:27.000 four Star, the rescue organization that they have now, and 1:11:27.040 --> 1:11:30.840 that's didn't start until like the late nineties. And I 1:11:30.880 --> 1:11:32.920 didn't even see him when I was an agent, even 1:11:32.920 --> 1:11:35.840 though I was there until two thousand and one. I 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:38.880 didn't see him out in Campo whenever we had a 1:11:38.920 --> 1:11:41.800 call about a rescue in Campo, at least the old 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:44.280 Campo station that was on four Skate Road before they 1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:48.680 changed it all around. We had to go out in 1:11:49.080 --> 1:11:51.360 teams and that's the only time we worked in teens. 1:11:51.400 --> 1:11:55.240 Otherwise we hiked alone is if we were doing a rescue, 1:11:55.360 --> 1:11:58.840 especially in the wintertime, because it was even more dangerous 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:02.479 and movie hiked all night until we found them. So 1:12:02.680 --> 1:12:05.400 US regular agents just on the line would just move 1:12:05.439 --> 1:12:11.000 our positions and keep going. And we didn't necessarily have 1:12:11.080 --> 1:12:13.800 any specific training. We didn't repel a lot of helicopters 1:12:13.800 --> 1:12:16.760 back then and do all that stuff. What I think 1:12:16.840 --> 1:12:20.559 that they started for was because we had a lot 1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:23.160 of attrition in the nineties, and it was more about 1:12:23.320 --> 1:12:27.479 getting US regular agents that patrol the border away from 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:29.920 the border because we were having that's when our massive 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:32.439 suicide started, because of all the death that we were seeing. 1:12:33.080 --> 1:12:38.400 And I think it was an effort to keep the 1:12:38.520 --> 1:12:41.519 average agent from seeing the brutality of what they were doing, 1:12:42.200 --> 1:12:46.320 quite honestly, and so like I as an agent had 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:49.840 lots of experience with dead bodies and so forth. But 1:12:50.520 --> 1:12:53.800 agents today who are on the line, they don't. They 1:12:53.800 --> 1:12:56.240 sit in their trucks, they watch the cameras, and then 1:12:56.280 --> 1:12:59.000 when a dire thing comes out that somebody needs to 1:12:59.040 --> 1:13:02.600 be rescued forced our handles handles it. They might go 1:13:02.800 --> 1:13:05.439 do perimeter things and help out a little bit, but 1:13:05.640 --> 1:13:08.960 they're not involved in the actual rescues. You know, in 1:13:09.000 --> 1:13:11.880 my day, I didn't know. I didn't know that many 1:13:11.880 --> 1:13:14.720 agents who had never seen who had never experienced that, 1:13:15.360 --> 1:13:17.439 And I kind of think in a weird way that 1:13:17.439 --> 1:13:23.120 that's what makes today's agents so non caring, so non 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:27.760 sympathetic to the migrants. We didn't call them invaders. And 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:30.240 it's not to say that we weren't racist and we're brutal. 1:13:30.280 --> 1:13:34.400 It's just it's gotten even more brutal and more racist 1:13:34.479 --> 1:13:37.840 since since I was an agent, And certainly I would 1:13:37.920 --> 1:13:42.559 say that the brutality that may have happened that would 1:13:42.560 --> 1:13:45.599 have happened maybe on an individual basis or with certain 1:13:45.600 --> 1:13:49.760 groups of agents. It's now policy throughout the whole agency, 1:13:49.800 --> 1:13:52.040 and you're expected to be that brutal. And if you 1:13:52.120 --> 1:13:54.280 can't be that brutal, then you can't hack it. So 1:13:55.320 --> 1:13:58.479 but the idea that they're all first responders, that just 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:01.240 means they wear a bad and have a gun and 1:14:01.680 --> 1:14:04.000 have a car with you know, red and blue lights 1:14:04.080 --> 1:14:07.880 on it. But they're not all necessarily trained in like 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:10.519 the type of rescue that we're talking about in the 1:14:10.560 --> 1:14:14.680 Hakamba area in the mountains that takes very physically. I 1:14:14.880 --> 1:14:16.960 could do it when I was younger, but obviously I 1:14:16.960 --> 1:14:20.760 can't do it now. Yeah, Yeah, we would have to 1:14:20.760 --> 1:14:23.599 get our best best agents, and especially if we went 1:14:23.640 --> 1:14:25.679 north at the checkpoint north of I eight up into 1:14:25.680 --> 1:14:27.599 the Lagunas, we would have to get our best fit 1:14:27.680 --> 1:14:28.800 agents up there to do that. 1:14:29.600 --> 1:14:32.400 Yeah, and it seems like that I don't see them 1:14:32.400 --> 1:14:35.360 as much, certainly, like when there's a search and rescue now, 1:14:35.720 --> 1:14:39.000 just like everything else at the border very often falls 1:14:39.040 --> 1:14:45.000 on volunteers and community groups and people who are willing 1:14:45.040 --> 1:14:47.639 to give their time and take the nonnegtible personal risk 1:14:47.720 --> 1:14:48.559 to rescue people. 1:14:48.760 --> 1:14:52.120 Because he I think we might have rescued more people 1:14:52.160 --> 1:14:54.839 back then, even with half the amount of agents, simply 1:14:54.880 --> 1:14:58.320 because when we got the call, we went and we looked, 1:14:58.479 --> 1:15:00.840 and sometimes we'd meet the federal allies right at the 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:02.840 border and they show us this is a group, and 1:15:02.880 --> 1:15:04.800 so we looked for the sign and then we could 1:15:05.120 --> 1:15:08.759 you know, frog it and get ahead of it. Whereas 1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:10.920 today if you call a bors Star, will all the 1:15:10.920 --> 1:15:13.360 Boord store agents have to get their gear on and 1:15:13.400 --> 1:15:16.679 then they have to get in the helicopter and then out. 1:15:18.040 --> 1:15:21.600 Yeah, and I mean that's even if they're willing. So 1:15:22.160 --> 1:15:25.120 like I know with a group that made a call 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:28.920 this weekend for a gentleman who was in distress and 1:15:29.479 --> 1:15:34.599 had been suffering very greatly from exposure, and the agent 1:15:34.640 --> 1:15:36.639 in the office said it would be hours, maybe days 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:40.320 before they arrived, right, So like if you can get through, 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:44.600 if you can get them to come out, like you 1:15:44.680 --> 1:15:47.719 know that this and that that's very common. That's something 1:15:47.720 --> 1:15:51.639 that that's not unusual at all. The disdain for coming 1:15:51.640 --> 1:15:54.000 to right, the disdain for people's lives, right for coming 1:15:54.080 --> 1:15:58.760 to rescue them. It is extremely obvious, really, and like 1:15:59.200 --> 1:16:01.320 that's a that's not someone haves to be located. Like 1:16:01.360 --> 1:16:04.360 I can give you a GPS reading down to you know, 1:16:05.040 --> 1:16:07.639 I think it's twenty figures, you know, extremely accurate location. 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:10.160 It's just oh, yeah, we didn't have that in our day. 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:14.200 I mean there was GPS, but we didn't have GPS capability. 1:16:14.520 --> 1:16:17.360 I never worked with GPS, so I worked with a 1:16:17.400 --> 1:16:18.639 compass that was pretty much. 1:16:18.600 --> 1:16:22.960 Yet, Yeah, it's yeah, I mean they have more technology 1:16:23.000 --> 1:16:23.680 than you know. 1:16:24.960 --> 1:16:26.960 I know, the agents today tell me they can see 1:16:27.040 --> 1:16:30.000 each other in the field. So they have something or 1:16:30.040 --> 1:16:34.120 their GPS system to tracked each other and so they 1:16:34.160 --> 1:16:35.840 can see where each other is. We never had. 1:16:36.439 --> 1:16:39.479 Yeah, they did to military technology, just like everything else 1:16:39.520 --> 1:16:42.839 that trickle down to the border patrol and sometimes trickles 1:16:42.840 --> 1:16:44.920 from the border patrol down to the military actually with 1:16:45.000 --> 1:16:50.759 a lot of the surveillance technology. Like, I think another 1:16:50.800 --> 1:16:53.479 thing that people might not be aware of, and this 1:16:53.640 --> 1:16:57.599 is something that I think has happened recently but being 1:16:57.600 --> 1:16:59.519 young for several years now, is the deployment of the 1:16:59.600 --> 1:17:03.160 National God to the border. I think people know that 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:05.759 that is happening in Texas, but I think people probably 1:17:05.760 --> 1:17:08.120 aren't aware that there's also a federal mission to the border, 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:12.479 right that the encompasses much more than Texas. And what 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:15.360 are they National God, Well, I mean they I know 1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:20.120 they sit outside detention camps in Ukumber shouting at me, 1:17:20.640 --> 1:17:23.800 but what is their mission in theory at the border? 1:17:23.840 --> 1:17:24.960 What are they doing there? 1:17:26.240 --> 1:17:29.439 Well, in theory their mission at the border is now 1:17:29.439 --> 1:17:32.280 they have these giant processing tints, you know in San 1:17:32.280 --> 1:17:34.640 Diego and in Cheese on ane of the things. So 1:17:34.840 --> 1:17:38.479 in general, what they're supposed to be doing is not 1:17:38.720 --> 1:17:44.040 actively arresting or apprehending people, because that, according to the law, 1:17:44.479 --> 1:17:47.800 would violate it. What they're supposed to be doing is 1:17:47.800 --> 1:17:50.920 is maybe sitting in a stationary spot operating the scope 1:17:51.080 --> 1:17:53.439 where they can tell border patrol at night. You know, 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:56.160 there's a group over here, DA DA DA, and then 1:17:56.640 --> 1:17:59.080 the rest of the time they're mostly supposed to be 1:17:59.800 --> 1:18:03.240 work working in the processing centers, assistant people if they 1:18:03.280 --> 1:18:05.000 need to go to medical or if they need this 1:18:05.200 --> 1:18:07.760 or that, and so they're just supposed to help so 1:18:07.800 --> 1:18:10.360 that the agents don't have to sit around and babysit 1:18:10.439 --> 1:18:12.360 so much so that they can be back in the field. 1:18:12.400 --> 1:18:14.160 That's what they're supposed to be doing. And I mean 1:18:14.600 --> 1:18:17.200 lots of presidents have done it. Barack Obama did it, 1:18:17.360 --> 1:18:22.080 you know, so it's not unusual unusual. What is unusual 1:18:22.280 --> 1:18:28.120 is that in Texas you have Texas DPS and the 1:18:28.120 --> 1:18:32.840 military Texas National Guard actually pretending like they are border 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:36.840 patrol agents and running around and apprehending people even though 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:39.759 they do not have that legal authority. The US government 1:18:39.840 --> 1:18:43.240 has not given it to them. And then the other 1:18:43.320 --> 1:18:48.320 thing I think which is legally the most dangerous is 1:18:48.600 --> 1:18:52.880 where they push the migrants back into the water. Number one, 1:18:53.280 --> 1:18:56.240 The law is that if you set foot on US soil, 1:18:56.320 --> 1:18:59.879 then you're entitled to an immigration hearing if you so choose, 1:19:00.439 --> 1:19:04.720 and you cannot turn somebody back. Agent cannot legally turn 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:07.599 somebody back once they've crossed, so once they're across that 1:19:07.640 --> 1:19:10.280 middle part of the river, they're in the United States 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:13.240 and they're your problem now. So you have to deal 1:19:13.280 --> 1:19:15.200 with that, and you have to process them. You have 1:19:15.240 --> 1:19:16.920 to figure out who they are, you have to friend 1:19:16.960 --> 1:19:20.040 and records checks and all this other stuff. It'd be interesting. 1:19:20.320 --> 1:19:24.640 You know. The Biden administration has it pressed Abbot on this, 1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:27.280 and I've always wondered, why are they allowing him to 1:19:27.320 --> 1:19:32.400 do this and take over immigration as a state authority. Yeah, 1:19:32.479 --> 1:19:34.800 I think they just don't want to fight it. 1:19:35.960 --> 1:19:38.200 Yeah, they don't want to be attacked on like this, 1:19:38.479 --> 1:19:40.960 like this idea that Biden's like, there's this myth of 1:19:40.960 --> 1:19:44.760 Biden's opens borders, which is actually ridiculous, and be like, 1:19:45.400 --> 1:19:48.040 as Erica reminded us last week, like we all as 1:19:48.160 --> 1:19:50.679 US passport holders, have open borders to us all over 1:19:50.720 --> 1:19:53.720 the world. It's very problematic. We think other people shouldn't. 1:19:54.800 --> 1:19:57.120 But yeah, I think the idea of like looking weak 1:19:57.600 --> 1:20:00.960 or like, you know, he wants to himself against an 1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:02.200 attack from the right. 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:04.240 So's the same reason why he won't get rid of 1:20:04.479 --> 1:20:09.360 the Border Patrol Union, because you know, the Border Patrol Union. 1:20:09.479 --> 1:20:14.160 Now that Donald Trump, before he left Diet, he gave 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:18.720 them what's called security designation, So there are they are 1:20:18.720 --> 1:20:21.759 a security organization now, which means they're like the FBI, 1:20:21.920 --> 1:20:24.360 they're like the DA and all this other stuff, and 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:28.320 so they can't have a bargaining unit. So the Border 1:20:28.360 --> 1:20:32.240 Patrol Union is actually illegal under five USC seven one 1:20:32.360 --> 1:20:36.519 one two, little b little sixth. But Biden is weak 1:20:36.840 --> 1:20:39.679 and he doesn't want to look like he hates unions. 1:20:39.680 --> 1:20:41.719 He always wants to look like he's strong on unions 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:45.080 because he's a union politician, and he refuses to get 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:47.760 rid of them. But the fear and the reason why 1:20:47.800 --> 1:20:50.519 that law exists is exactly what we see them doing now, 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:54.720 where the union representatives who are Border patrol agents, they 1:20:54.760 --> 1:20:58.280 have national security information and they're actively working against this 1:20:58.400 --> 1:20:59.320 current administration. 1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:01.120 Yeah, so that's why we have it. 1:21:01.200 --> 1:21:03.600 But he's just weak and he won't do anything about. 1:21:03.320 --> 1:21:07.000 It, right and it certainly I think whoever wins next time, 1:21:07.040 --> 1:21:11.400 they're not going to do anything about it now. Yeah, 1:21:11.760 --> 1:21:26.519 I think either way. You like also pattention to the 1:21:26.560 --> 1:21:29.080 VP union and I think it's one of the worst 1:21:29.080 --> 1:21:34.080 accounts on Twitter dot com. But I also like, I'm 1:21:34.120 --> 1:21:37.040 in the event of a Republican victory which at the 1:21:37.040 --> 1:21:40.479 moment it's looking like Trump might be then nominee. Right, Certainly, 1:21:40.479 --> 1:21:43.839 it seems for support for Trump kind of these people 1:21:43.880 --> 1:21:46.960 seem to have his ear on immigration and they seem 1:21:47.000 --> 1:21:51.679 to want the same things. Right, So I'm wondering Biden 1:21:51.760 --> 1:21:54.960 has been bad. His border policy has been objectively bad, 1:21:55.120 --> 1:21:57.160 and it's very hard for me not to see it 1:21:57.160 --> 1:21:59.120 as racist. Like it's very hard for me not to 1:21:59.120 --> 1:22:03.280 see his immigration specifically favoring white people and specifically disadvantaging 1:22:03.280 --> 1:22:06.200 black people. And I don't think I could be persuaded 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:10.240 that's not the case. What do you think, Like it 1:22:10.280 --> 1:22:12.400 seems that immigration policy only moves one way and it 1:22:12.479 --> 1:22:14.880 just gets worse and worse, and border policy does the same. 1:22:15.640 --> 1:22:18.040 What are they like demanding and what do you think 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:22.360 is sort of at stake in the upcoming election this 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:25.080 year's election regarding the border. 1:22:25.560 --> 1:22:28.160 So I was paying attention to what Speaker Johnson was 1:22:28.200 --> 1:22:32.200 saying before we logged on to talk, and he was 1:22:32.200 --> 1:22:34.240 saying that there was going to be no deal for 1:22:34.360 --> 1:22:37.080 the border unless Donald Trump was the one doing the deal. 1:22:37.160 --> 1:22:39.400 So he doesn't want to even fund the border patrol 1:22:39.479 --> 1:22:43.360 right now. So, I mean, my impression of what the 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:45.640 border patrol, and what the Union is trying to do 1:22:45.720 --> 1:22:48.800 at this moment is that they are trying to make 1:22:49.840 --> 1:22:55.680 the border as chaotic as absolutely possible, and that is 1:22:55.720 --> 1:23:01.160 their goal. They want bodies, black and brown bodies coming 1:23:01.240 --> 1:23:04.920 over that fence, and they want the optics of it. 1:23:05.280 --> 1:23:07.840 That's what I think is going on, and that's why 1:23:07.880 --> 1:23:11.800 I think that they're picking specific cities to have a 1:23:11.840 --> 1:23:14.960 lot of the migrants come through. I think that that's 1:23:15.200 --> 1:23:18.640 the reason why they have like specific cities, because you 1:23:18.680 --> 1:23:20.680 saw like a couple of weeks together, they're like, oh 1:23:20.680 --> 1:23:22.720 my god, the border's being overrun and oh my god, 1:23:22.800 --> 1:23:24.120 what are we going to do? And this and that, 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:28.200 and then you realize it's just like three or four sectors, 1:23:28.439 --> 1:23:31.880 and even within those sectors, it's just one or two areas. 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:37.200 It's not the entire border. Is it problematic? Is it chaotic? 1:23:37.360 --> 1:23:40.200 Is it a human rights disaster for the minents? Yes? 1:23:40.920 --> 1:23:43.920 Is it that for the border patrol? No? I think 1:23:43.960 --> 1:23:46.360 the border patrol is adding to it. And in fact, 1:23:46.360 --> 1:23:48.519 when I do the numbers and you compare like the 1:23:48.600 --> 1:23:50.799 staff that we have back when I was an agent 1:23:51.080 --> 1:23:53.719 and the staff that they have today, they're not even 1:23:53.880 --> 1:23:57.760 apprehending half the amount that each agent apprehended when we 1:23:57.760 --> 1:24:00.880 were in the patrol back in the day. And so 1:24:01.360 --> 1:24:03.639 you know, for them to apprehend the group now, when 1:24:03.680 --> 1:24:07.120 I see them apprehend a group of life, even ten people, 1:24:07.200 --> 1:24:11.559 twelve people, they will take five agents to apprehend twelve people. 1:24:12.200 --> 1:24:16.240 I have apprehended one hundred people by myself, and that's 1:24:16.280 --> 1:24:19.000 not safe. I shouldn't suggest that people do that, but 1:24:19.080 --> 1:24:21.679 I have apprehended It is normal for a border patrol 1:24:21.720 --> 1:24:25.599 agent to apprehend twenty to thirty people by themselves, including 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:29.280 a female agent who's at the time was super skinny 1:24:29.320 --> 1:24:31.840 and super small. And the reason why is because the 1:24:31.920 --> 1:24:36.040 vast majority of migrants aren't criminals and they're not trying 1:24:36.040 --> 1:24:39.240 to hurt you. So that's why a single agent can 1:24:39.280 --> 1:24:43.679 apprehend so many people. But today they use like six 1:24:43.800 --> 1:24:48.040 or seven agents to apprehend groups, and so I'm not 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:51.400 sure why they're overwhelmed. Quite frankly, they should be able 1:24:51.439 --> 1:24:55.080 to handle three hundred and four hundred thousand people a 1:24:55.120 --> 1:24:57.720 month in the border patrol if they have to. 1:24:59.000 --> 1:25:04.639 Yeah, even though a world without the border patrol would 1:25:04.680 --> 1:25:07.120 be better, in a world without this bloated and violent 1:25:07.160 --> 1:25:12.920 and overfunded and really terribly just just a mess of 1:25:13.000 --> 1:25:14.640 quality and violence that we have now would be a 1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:17.280 lot better, but things could get a lot worse for 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:20.880 those people, like even the time it takes for them 1:25:20.920 --> 1:25:23.000 to be processed, and that the time it takes for 1:25:23.040 --> 1:25:26.040 them to have their hearing. Immigration law could change for 1:25:26.120 --> 1:25:31.080 the worse very quickly if either person wins presidency. And indeed, 1:25:31.160 --> 1:25:33.679 like it seems that Biden has floated like a return 1:25:33.760 --> 1:25:37.800 to Title forty two as a as a compromise to 1:25:37.800 --> 1:25:42.960 get funding for Ukraine. So like, yeah, this inefficiency doesn't 1:25:43.000 --> 1:25:46.760 just like even when people are apprehended, their failure to 1:25:46.800 --> 1:25:50.719 do their jobs hurts people right like it it puts 1:25:50.760 --> 1:25:51.599 them at greater risk. 1:25:53.040 --> 1:25:56.799 It does. And I mean a lot of the things 1:25:56.800 --> 1:26:00.920 that the Border Patrol has done has created it and 1:26:01.040 --> 1:26:04.439 made these things worse. A lot of the areas out 1:26:04.479 --> 1:26:07.800 near Sasabe, a lot of people never even crossed until 1:26:07.840 --> 1:26:10.680 Trump put that wall out there because they didn't have 1:26:10.800 --> 1:26:13.400 road access to a lot of that area. And if 1:26:13.439 --> 1:26:15.600 you did have road access, you had to have a 1:26:15.800 --> 1:26:17.960 very serious four by four to get out there. You 1:26:18.000 --> 1:26:20.280 can't do it in a regular car, and you can't 1:26:20.320 --> 1:26:23.120 do it in a kind of city type of four 1:26:23.200 --> 1:26:25.439 by four. You need a serious four by four to 1:26:25.439 --> 1:26:29.000 get it into some of those areas. And then just 1:26:29.120 --> 1:26:31.760 our policies are deterrence policies. You know, when I was 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:34.559 an agent in the nineties, it costs you know, probably 1:26:34.560 --> 1:26:37.439 somebody from Central America costs about eighteen hundred dollars to 1:26:37.479 --> 1:26:40.479 get here. Now it's ten thousand or more dollars. So 1:26:40.720 --> 1:26:45.800 we've made it profitable for people to smuggle people in 1:26:45.960 --> 1:26:51.440 and cross them illegally. Illegally, We've created this entire situation ourselves. 1:26:51.760 --> 1:26:57.120 I mean, I don't have any doubt that other countries 1:26:57.160 --> 1:27:00.839 that maybe don't like that, you know, all the migrants 1:27:00.880 --> 1:27:04.720 coming across, the destabilization that will cause with people who 1:27:04.720 --> 1:27:07.839 are racist or who don't know anything about the border, 1:27:07.960 --> 1:27:10.040 they all see that as a bonus. But the fact 1:27:10.040 --> 1:27:12.280 of the matter is is that people who are crossing 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:16.360 they still need asylum, they still have serious needs. Just 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:19.920 because you know, I've seen some people floating around that 1:27:20.760 --> 1:27:24.600 people are pushing migrants across our southern border to destabilize US. 1:27:25.920 --> 1:27:28.880 I don't know if that's necessarily true. We don't have 1:27:28.920 --> 1:27:31.360 any proof of that. But even if they are, isn't 1:27:31.400 --> 1:27:35.240 the better attitude to have because asylum is legal, isn't 1:27:35.240 --> 1:27:37.719 the better attitude to have? Well, how can we better, 1:27:38.560 --> 1:27:42.720 you know, help these people and not let this destabilize 1:27:42.720 --> 1:27:44.960 who we are and make them part of our communities 1:27:45.000 --> 1:27:47.599 and so forth. I think that's a better choice than 1:27:47.840 --> 1:27:50.000 sending them out to the desert or to drown in 1:27:50.000 --> 1:27:50.559 the rivers. 1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:55.400 Yeah. Absolutely, And I think it bears. I mean, people 1:27:55.400 --> 1:27:58.000 listening to this will probably be in agreement that, yeah, 1:27:58.040 --> 1:28:02.040 these people should be treated preticunanty and respect adless. And 1:28:02.120 --> 1:28:04.679 I generally don't buy that they're being shipped on mass 1:28:04.680 --> 1:28:07.680 to destabilize this country. But I think even if you 1:28:07.720 --> 1:28:13.280 don't care about their rights, every single advance advance is 1:28:13.280 --> 1:28:16.799 around word, right, But increase in surveillance, every single increase 1:28:16.800 --> 1:28:21.160 in state violence, every single incursion into individual rights starts 1:28:21.200 --> 1:28:24.120 at the border, but it doesn't stop there, right, Like, 1:28:24.160 --> 1:28:27.600 if you've protested in twenty twenty, you were surveilled by 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:31.559 technology that came from the border. You were sometimes targeting 1:28:31.600 --> 1:28:34.320 by Leslie for weapons that were first issued to border patrol, 1:28:34.479 --> 1:28:39.320 Like you're the intelligence that police now gather began with 1:28:39.439 --> 1:28:42.960 border patrol. Like so much of the even the stuff 1:28:42.960 --> 1:28:46.200 that we see used at the border today or the 1:28:46.240 --> 1:28:49.040 stuff that we see using surveillance today overwhelmingly comes from 1:28:49.439 --> 1:28:53.400 either border patrol or the Israel as a border. And 1:28:53.439 --> 1:28:56.080 also most of these things are the same companies, right, 1:28:56.439 --> 1:28:59.479 Companies that do one also do the other. And so like, 1:29:00.840 --> 1:29:02.439 I guess if people are talking to people who don't 1:29:02.439 --> 1:29:04.439 seem to care about the rights of migrants, which is 1:29:04.479 --> 1:29:08.839 a worryingly large amount of our society, like this will 1:29:09.200 --> 1:29:12.559 come and bite someone else in it, like to include 1:29:12.560 --> 1:29:15.639 the people who decided to storm the capitol on January sixth, 1:29:15.640 --> 1:29:18.240 twenty twenty one. Right, Like, lots of this effectant technology 1:29:18.280 --> 1:29:20.559 that bit them in the Ayes came from the border 1:29:20.680 --> 1:29:21.719 and the people they hated. 1:29:22.120 --> 1:29:26.559 And that's absolutely true. And I mean, you know it's 1:29:26.640 --> 1:29:28.600 the Border patrol says this, but they mean it in 1:29:28.600 --> 1:29:30.800 a different way. They say, what happens at the border 1:29:30.840 --> 1:29:33.360 doesn't stay at the border, and they mean that because 1:29:33.400 --> 1:29:35.840 they try and portray migrants as all criminals. So they're 1:29:35.840 --> 1:29:37.800 trying to tell people, oh, see, these criminals are going 1:29:37.880 --> 1:29:41.080 to come to Iowa or Illinois and so that. But 1:29:41.840 --> 1:29:44.800 I say, in the fact that the surveillance has come 1:29:44.840 --> 1:29:46.559 into you because you know, I mean you know, in 1:29:46.640 --> 1:29:49.559 San Diego, we got street lamps out here that can 1:29:49.680 --> 1:29:53.719 listen to US and video US YEP and track wherever 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:55.960 we're going down the street, from lock to block. And 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:58.639 it's ridiculous. You can't even walk your dog without being 1:29:58.680 --> 1:30:02.479 surveilled around here. And yet we're far from them, twenty 1:30:02.520 --> 1:30:05.040 miles from the border, north of the border, and it's 1:30:05.040 --> 1:30:08.880 still surveilled around here. And so all of that surveillance, yes, 1:30:08.920 --> 1:30:12.760 that's being used on American citizens. And when you go 1:30:12.800 --> 1:30:16.360 to places like McCallan, so the Rio Grande Valley sector 1:30:16.439 --> 1:30:19.559 right now, it's really slow. They're getting about a little 1:30:19.600 --> 1:30:23.559 over one thousand, maybe two thousand apprehensions a week, which 1:30:23.600 --> 1:30:27.360 is really slow size of the sector. And they're like, 1:30:28.320 --> 1:30:30.920 you know, they have so much surveillance, Like you can 1:30:30.960 --> 1:30:33.280 see there's a tower, there's a tower. There's a tower there, 1:30:33.760 --> 1:30:36.679 and it is all this Israeli technology and they can 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:41.839 listen to cell phones and that usually needs a warrant. 1:30:42.120 --> 1:30:44.599 But apparently down here on the border, and I've had 1:30:45.280 --> 1:30:47.840 current border patrol agents tell me the Fourth Amendment doesn't 1:30:47.840 --> 1:30:51.680 exist down here. It's like, what is that one they're 1:30:51.760 --> 1:30:54.960 teaching here in the academy now doesn't exist down here, 1:30:55.200 --> 1:30:59.200 and apparently that's what border patrol agents think, and they 1:30:59.240 --> 1:31:02.000 think they have to do I do anybody that they 1:31:02.040 --> 1:31:05.200 see and all this other stuff, and it just it's 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:10.720 it's interesting how much this is spreading, how much the 1:31:10.840 --> 1:31:14.840 checkpoints are spreading. And you know, like in mind, we 1:31:14.880 --> 1:31:19.479 didn't do invasive searches if it wasn't obvious, we didn't 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:25.679 stop them. And nowadays they'll do on full body cavvy 1:31:25.760 --> 1:31:29.400 searches at a checkpoint and I'm like, what I heard that? 1:31:29.840 --> 1:31:33.200 And so all this stuff is just gonna it's just 1:31:33.240 --> 1:31:36.280 getting further and further into the interior of the United States, 1:31:36.320 --> 1:31:39.439 like we saw in the trip nutrition like you said, yeah, 1:31:39.439 --> 1:31:41.479 it's going to be brought back out for sure. Yeah. 1:31:41.720 --> 1:31:47.760 Yeah. So I wonder, like how do we I mean, 1:31:48.240 --> 1:31:51.360 it does seem very bleak, like I which is why 1:31:51.360 --> 1:31:52.880 I like to devote so much of my time to 1:31:53.040 --> 1:31:55.519 like mutual aid work on the border, because it's a 1:31:55.560 --> 1:31:59.360 meaningful way to help. But how do we move the 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:02.160 needle to a more humane place? Like this is one 1:32:02.160 --> 1:32:05.160 of the places where like I think, like we should 1:32:05.200 --> 1:32:07.720 do whatever we can to make this like even if 1:32:07.760 --> 1:32:10.920 it's something that would normally be this tasteful to us, 1:32:11.240 --> 1:32:13.800 but like, yeah, what is it that we can do 1:32:15.000 --> 1:32:19.320 to either, like maybe change people's minds, Like I'm sure 1:32:19.360 --> 1:32:21.640 you yourself have changed your mind on what we need 1:32:21.680 --> 1:32:26.200 to do on the border and to because the conversation 1:32:26.280 --> 1:32:29.800 around the border is not only toxic, but it's also 1:32:30.160 --> 1:32:34.360 so deeply rooted in ignorance and lack of understanding, and like, 1:32:34.880 --> 1:32:37.240 I don't think we were talking about this before we 1:32:37.240 --> 1:32:39.320 started back. Like I encountered a three year old girl 1:32:39.360 --> 1:32:43.599 the other day who was extremely cold. She had her 1:32:43.600 --> 1:32:46.120 feet have been wet and cold for hours days and 1:32:46.439 --> 1:32:48.720 she was the cold beyond shivering, and we were trying 1:32:48.720 --> 1:32:52.880 to warm her up, and it was very disstressing. I 1:32:52.880 --> 1:32:54.479 don't think many people have seen that. And I don't 1:32:54.520 --> 1:32:59.680 think even you're like sort of hardest border big at 1:32:59.720 --> 1:33:02.920 face book uncles would want to look that in the 1:33:02.960 --> 1:33:05.160 face and be like, yeah, that's what we should do. Damn, 1:33:05.240 --> 1:33:07.559 I'm really proud of this country, So how do we 1:33:07.600 --> 1:33:08.639 move this to a better place? 1:33:08.680 --> 1:33:09.080 Do you think? 1:33:10.280 --> 1:33:12.080 I think one of the biggest mistakes that the Biden 1:33:12.120 --> 1:33:15.240 administration did was that they didn't, you know, in the beginning, 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:18.840 they hired a lot of really really good people, like 1:33:18.920 --> 1:33:22.719 I think Andrea Flores was one of the administration people, 1:33:22.760 --> 1:33:27.760 and she knows her stuff, and I think that they 1:33:27.960 --> 1:33:31.080 had this idea from what she had said that the 1:33:31.160 --> 1:33:35.400 people that support immigration and immigrant rights in this and 1:33:35.400 --> 1:33:40.200 that she was saying that they were viewed as soft 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:43.840 hearted individuals on immigration and they were too soft and 1:33:43.880 --> 1:33:46.519 they didn't understand border security. One of the things that 1:33:47.160 --> 1:33:51.000 Biden should have done was start educating Americans about why 1:33:51.040 --> 1:33:55.040 the asylum system is so important and what the benefits 1:33:55.080 --> 1:33:58.679 are that it brings to us. And they have never 1:33:58.720 --> 1:34:03.840 done that. There's no about it. There's nothing And I 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:08.720 don't know if NGOs do it on that large environment 1:34:08.800 --> 1:34:11.479 on cable news or whatever, because they don't really watch 1:34:12.120 --> 1:34:17.439 mainstream news and stuff. But Americans are just astonished it. 1:34:17.680 --> 1:34:20.320 Like when I started doing the TikTok videos and explaining, 1:34:20.360 --> 1:34:23.479 you know, border patroling, the people in green cbps and 1:34:23.520 --> 1:34:27.000 Blues people didn't know just the basic things. The majority 1:34:27.000 --> 1:34:31.880 of Americans who feel that they have a very a 1:34:32.000 --> 1:34:36.439 very specific view on immigration, whether they hate it or 1:34:36.439 --> 1:34:39.400 they love it, they don't know much about immigration. They 1:34:39.439 --> 1:34:42.800 don't know how it works. They literally think people just 1:34:42.840 --> 1:34:45.200 get off their couch and go let's just go to America. 1:34:45.200 --> 1:34:47.080 And they just hop over the fence and they all 1:34:47.080 --> 1:34:49.240 have money and they're all getting free stuff and this 1:34:49.280 --> 1:34:52.839 and that. So this administration, the government has done nothing 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:58.000 to explain what is happening and why it happens. And 1:34:58.479 --> 1:35:02.400 I always say that the asylum system is essential to 1:35:02.560 --> 1:35:06.679 national security. What we saw in the Biden administration when 1:35:06.680 --> 1:35:09.960 he first opened up the ports of entry to allow 1:35:10.120 --> 1:35:14.400 specifically Haitians to apply at the ports of entry, we 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:18.120 saw the amount of Haitians go from the crossing in 1:35:18.200 --> 1:35:20.840 between the ports it regularly. We saw it going from 1:35:21.000 --> 1:35:23.759 you know, thousands down to like one hundred and something. 1:35:24.600 --> 1:35:27.519 So the idea is that you have to have a 1:35:27.680 --> 1:35:30.840 robust and humane asylum system where you're processing people where 1:35:30.840 --> 1:35:32.880 they don't have to wait so long that they're going 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:35.960 to give up across it regularly. Because the vast majority 1:35:36.000 --> 1:35:38.599 of people who believe that they have a legitimate asylum. 1:35:38.680 --> 1:35:42.000 Clane and I do think that what constitutes the asylum 1:35:42.040 --> 1:35:45.439 needs to be revisited because it's outdated, especially now that 1:35:45.479 --> 1:35:49.920 we have client and change. But is that you want 1:35:49.960 --> 1:35:53.120 those people to come and be inspected. We want people 1:35:53.200 --> 1:35:55.800 to come and stand outside the port of entry and 1:35:55.880 --> 1:35:59.240 wait and be inspected by CBP. If we're going to 1:35:59.280 --> 1:36:01.320 have a border, we're going to have all this. We 1:36:01.360 --> 1:36:03.719 would want that so that then we could say, Okay, 1:36:03.800 --> 1:36:06.479 we've checked them. They appear to be okay, they're going 1:36:06.520 --> 1:36:08.920 to this place. Now they have an immigration hearing before 1:36:08.920 --> 1:36:10.439 a judge. We're going to make sure that they get 1:36:10.479 --> 1:36:15.320 the system and you know, and then see it more 1:36:15.400 --> 1:36:18.400 as a system that's a benefit to us instead of 1:36:18.479 --> 1:36:21.599 creating enemies, which is what we're doing now. Every time 1:36:21.640 --> 1:36:24.519 a migrant turns around, even if they do are able 1:36:24.560 --> 1:36:28.719 to get into the United States the quote unquote legal 1:36:28.760 --> 1:36:31.400 way at a port of entry, they're still met with 1:36:31.520 --> 1:36:34.640 you can't work for one hundred and fifty days, and 1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:36.280 then you can't do this, and you can't do that, 1:36:36.360 --> 1:36:38.280 and you have to show up. And so we're constant. 1:36:38.439 --> 1:36:43.200 Everything is punishment, Everything is punitive in our immigration system, 1:36:43.800 --> 1:36:46.360 and we can't do that. We want these people to 1:36:46.600 --> 1:36:49.680 become citizens. We want these people to become part of 1:36:49.680 --> 1:36:53.000 our our society. We need it, and so we have 1:36:53.080 --> 1:36:55.559 to we have to have somebody bold enough to explain 1:36:55.600 --> 1:36:59.080 this to the American people. If you close the asylum system. 1:36:59.479 --> 1:37:02.600 Everybody's going to cross regularly, just like they did in 1:37:02.680 --> 1:37:05.160 Title forty two, and you're going to get tons and 1:37:05.160 --> 1:37:07.840 tons of bodies coming across the wall. We need to 1:37:08.080 --> 1:37:10.760 be bold enough to say we want a humane and 1:37:10.880 --> 1:37:14.960 robust asylum system where families can wait together and be processed. 1:37:15.320 --> 1:37:18.360 And then, you know, I mean the decision between should 1:37:18.400 --> 1:37:21.679 we fund detention centers and home people who are crossing 1:37:21.800 --> 1:37:25.960 just waiting for their immigration hearing in detention, or should 1:37:25.960 --> 1:37:30.200 we fund you know, humane services, like let's get you 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:33.040 into whatever city you're going to. Let's help you find 1:37:33.040 --> 1:37:35.040 a school for your kids, Let's help you learn English, 1:37:35.120 --> 1:37:37.280 let's help you find a job, Let's help you and 1:37:37.320 --> 1:37:39.400 you can hire and pay people to do that instead 1:37:39.400 --> 1:37:42.120 of putting people in attention. It doesn't have to be 1:37:42.439 --> 1:37:45.879 a punitive system. We've just made it that way because 1:37:46.960 --> 1:37:50.720 the people on the for profit prisons before Trump was 1:37:51.160 --> 1:37:56.360 supposedly elected, they were lobbying Jeff Sessions and Steven Miller 1:37:56.520 --> 1:37:59.800 when he was working for Jeff Sessions and so Geo 1:38:00.240 --> 1:38:02.800 and all them. They're the ones that decided this is 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:05.400 how we're going to go. And the fact of the 1:38:05.439 --> 1:38:07.680 matter is is I know, I think we're on a 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:11.800 disagreement with open border versus you know, or having border 1:38:11.840 --> 1:38:14.559 patrol at all. But I always say an open border 1:38:14.640 --> 1:38:18.200 is just as dangerous as a closed border. And when 1:38:19.000 --> 1:38:22.160 when you close off the asylum system, that forces everybody 1:38:22.200 --> 1:38:24.800 to then cross in between the ports of entry, and 1:38:24.840 --> 1:38:27.880 that is what does overwhelm border patrol. So if you 1:38:27.920 --> 1:38:30.360 don't want to overwhelm your border patrol, then you have 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:33.680 to pull them back and you have to start processing 1:38:33.680 --> 1:38:37.080 people like they're supposed to be processed at the court 1:38:37.080 --> 1:38:39.439 of entry. The other thing people forget about is we've 1:38:39.479 --> 1:38:42.719 had four years, literally four years of the asylum system 1:38:42.760 --> 1:38:45.680 being shut down because of MPP and Title forty two. 1:38:46.040 --> 1:38:48.720 Those are Trent policies. It took by no while to 1:38:48.720 --> 1:38:50.720 get through all those. But what do you think all 1:38:50.760 --> 1:38:52.640 those people that were sitting around for four years are 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:55.000 doing there waiting? They're turning to get over there. So 1:38:55.080 --> 1:38:57.920 we have a backlog not just the people in the 1:38:57.960 --> 1:39:00.800 United States waiting for the immigration hearing, we have a 1:39:00.840 --> 1:39:06.080 backlog of people in Mexico waiting to come across. So 1:39:06.400 --> 1:39:09.240 they created this whole thing themselves. I find it very 1:39:09.280 --> 1:39:13.640 interesting the press never mentions that basically what TRUP did 1:39:13.800 --> 1:39:16.280 was close the whole immigration system down and kick the 1:39:16.360 --> 1:39:17.160 can down the road. 1:39:17.600 --> 1:39:21.639 Yeah yeah, I mean consciously or unconsciously. It's like shaken 1:39:21.720 --> 1:39:23.920 up a can of beer and then someone's going to 1:39:23.920 --> 1:39:25.200 take a little off at some point, you know, and 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:27.720 it's going to blow out. Oh yeah, and it's been 1:39:27.760 --> 1:39:30.880 willing to and so it's still going to get kicked 1:39:30.880 --> 1:39:32.800 down the road. I mean, people have come in since 1:39:32.800 --> 1:39:35.200 the end of title forty two, but as you say, 1:39:35.320 --> 1:39:37.599 there's a huge backlog, and people aren't, as you say, 1:39:37.640 --> 1:39:40.960 going to stop coming, right because like it's dangerous getting here. 1:39:40.960 --> 1:39:45.240 I've walked those trails. They're not easy, and they're certainly 1:39:45.280 --> 1:39:47.360 not easy when you're carrying your kid and it's raining 1:39:47.400 --> 1:39:52.120 and it's dark, but it's I've also been in Syria, 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:55.519 in Iraq and in other places where these people are 1:39:55.560 --> 1:39:57.600 coming from, and I understand why they're doing it, and 1:39:57.640 --> 1:39:59.599 I would do it too if I had a family 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:02.400 and I wanted to escape that. So I think we're 1:40:02.479 --> 1:40:06.720 laughing if we think that we're going to I mean, 1:40:06.880 --> 1:40:09.639 we've tried to make our border as unpleasant as those places, 1:40:09.720 --> 1:40:13.280 and it's deadly as those places, right, and fortunately we 1:40:13.400 --> 1:40:17.080 failed and so that doesn't mean people will stop coming 1:40:17.120 --> 1:40:17.880 whatever we do. 1:40:17.960 --> 1:40:21.639 We've had thirty years of walls and border patrols, concept 1:40:21.680 --> 1:40:26.080 of deterrence policies that they claim will prevent people from 1:40:26.120 --> 1:40:31.680 crossing irregularly or illegally, and they've all failed. And I 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:33.840 think it's time to try something new. I think it's 1:40:33.880 --> 1:40:37.400 time to stop listening to the people who get all 1:40:37.400 --> 1:40:39.120 the money and get all the guns and get all 1:40:39.120 --> 1:40:41.880 the militarizations saying it has to be this way. It 1:40:41.920 --> 1:40:43.960 does not have to be that way. And I think 1:40:44.000 --> 1:40:46.240 it's very important to point out that we live in 1:40:46.240 --> 1:40:48.680 the United States of America. Even though we have a 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:51.640 lot of problems and we're possibly losing our democracy in 1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:54.680 our country right now, it is still far better than 1:40:54.720 --> 1:40:57.519 the places that these people are coming from, and we 1:40:57.560 --> 1:41:00.680 should be thankful for that and then figure out a 1:41:00.720 --> 1:41:03.559 way to protect ourselves as just as we can. 1:41:03.960 --> 1:41:07.200 You know, yeah, yeah, I think I think that's yeah, 1:41:07.560 --> 1:41:10.000 it's a good place to end. Like, we should be 1:41:10.080 --> 1:41:11.960 grateful that for now we live in a much more 1:41:11.960 --> 1:41:14.280 stable place and that we were able to we have 1:41:14.320 --> 1:41:18.120 the resources to welcome people, and we do the benefit 1:41:18.160 --> 1:41:20.600 to our communities when we. 1:41:20.360 --> 1:41:22.400 Have from us. 1:41:22.880 --> 1:41:25.439 Yeah, we need people right now. 1:41:25.680 --> 1:41:28.040 So yeah, people forever bitching about not being able to 1:41:28.040 --> 1:41:29.760 find people to work and also at the same time 1:41:29.960 --> 1:41:33.439 turning away people who would love. You know, every migrant 1:41:33.439 --> 1:41:36.040 I meet in the cumber message me on WhatsApps saying, Hey, 1:41:37.000 --> 1:41:39.800 struggling to find work because they don't get work authorization. 1:41:39.960 --> 1:41:42.080 Right there are a lot of jobs that you're doing, 1:41:42.120 --> 1:41:43.799 and a lot of people who want to do them, 1:41:44.040 --> 1:41:47.440 and but we're so wrapped up in our bigger trendenophobia 1:41:47.520 --> 1:41:49.559 that we won't let them do it right. 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:53.640 We've made it as difficult for them as we absolutely 1:41:53.760 --> 1:41:54.599 positively can. 1:41:55.040 --> 1:41:58.639 Yeah, Jen, thank you for joining us. Is there any 1:41:58.640 --> 1:42:00.439 way that people can like follow you on line? You've 1:42:00.479 --> 1:42:02.320 done a really good job at sort of cracking some 1:42:02.360 --> 1:42:05.559 of the board patrols nonsense recently. So where can people 1:42:05.960 --> 1:42:06.360 find that? 1:42:08.040 --> 1:42:10.560 They can find it on jin the j E N 1:42:10.640 --> 1:42:14.120 Nthudd dot com. 1:42:13.200 --> 1:42:15.600 Great mesair, it's a good resource. And well, thank you 1:42:15.640 --> 1:42:17.200 so much, jenf. We really appreciate your time. 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:19.519 I appreciate you. 1:42:19.600 --> 1:42:37.360 Jeerz bye, Okay, hello, welcome to It could happen here. 1:42:37.520 --> 1:42:41.559 This is Sharene today. I am joined by you know 1:42:41.640 --> 1:42:42.080 you know him. 1:42:42.120 --> 1:42:42.519 You love him. 1:42:42.520 --> 1:42:43.080 It's Robert. 1:42:43.240 --> 1:42:45.080 Hi, Robert Ah. 1:42:45.160 --> 1:42:46.400 Someone knows me and loves me. 1:42:46.479 --> 1:42:47.200 That's nice. 1:42:47.680 --> 1:42:51.360 Robert is here today to talk with me to Charles McBride. 1:42:51.880 --> 1:42:54.920 But I met Charles fairly recently doing just pro Palestine 1:42:55.120 --> 1:42:58.519 stuff online, and I really liked his work. He's here 1:42:58.560 --> 1:43:01.080 to talk about some things that I think are very 1:43:01.080 --> 1:43:04.080 important to like Ukraine, and why helping Ukraine is not 1:43:04.120 --> 1:43:07.320 the same thing as aid to Israel and all that 1:43:07.360 --> 1:43:10.400 good stuff. And yeah, let's just get right into it. 1:43:10.520 --> 1:43:13.960 I want to know your experience with Ukraine. Can you 1:43:14.000 --> 1:43:15.400 just tell us a little bit about that first? 1:43:17.040 --> 1:43:17.360 Sure. 1:43:17.840 --> 1:43:20.160 First of all, thank you sharing so much for having 1:43:20.160 --> 1:43:23.200 me on. This has been one of my favorite podcasts 1:43:22.880 --> 1:43:25.280 for a while. So this is kind of a slightly 1:43:25.320 --> 1:43:31.639 surreal moment going into my experience with Ukraine. I double 1:43:31.680 --> 1:43:35.519 majored in history in comparative religion in college, and I 1:43:35.600 --> 1:43:38.280 was kind of interested in sort of the post Soviet sphere, 1:43:38.360 --> 1:43:41.040 and I worked on some kind of post Soviet issues 1:43:41.080 --> 1:43:41.920 when I lived. 1:43:41.760 --> 1:43:42.519 In Washington, d C. 1:43:42.680 --> 1:43:47.440 After school, and also was deeply interested in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, 1:43:48.000 --> 1:43:50.680 which is kind of why I took an interest in 1:43:50.720 --> 1:43:56.679 that region. So I remember in like twenty fifteen, I 1:43:56.800 --> 1:44:01.160 watched this Vice video called Russian Roulette that popped up 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:03.519 on my YouTube feed, and it just completely it just 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:05.240 put Ukraine on the map for me in a way 1:44:05.240 --> 1:44:07.600 that I'd never really thought about before. I thought of 1:44:07.640 --> 1:44:13.639 it as the Ukraine. Yeah, Yeah, my Muscovite Russian history 1:44:13.640 --> 1:44:17.320 professor had always talked about it as a part of Russia. Yeah, 1:44:17.720 --> 1:44:20.839 And she had denied, you know, I was during the Midaan, 1:44:20.960 --> 1:44:23.120 the Revolution of Dignity. I was in college, and she 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:27.040 denied that Ukraine had any autonomy. She echoed all the 1:44:27.080 --> 1:44:31.720 putinesque sort of talking points about CIA intervention and neo 1:44:31.800 --> 1:44:34.880 Nazis and stuff, and I didn't really know what. I 1:44:34.880 --> 1:44:40.200 didn't know at that point. So then I, yeah, I 1:44:40.520 --> 1:44:43.600 got interested in in sort of what was happening in 1:44:43.640 --> 1:44:45.960 the lead up to the Russian invasion. And I had 1:44:46.000 --> 1:44:49.960 been following this guy who went over to Syria a 1:44:49.960 --> 1:44:53.439 couple of years ago named Aidan Aslin, And in my 1:44:53.479 --> 1:44:55.960 conversations with aid And he'd sort of told me a 1:44:55.960 --> 1:44:59.040 little bit about kind of what stuff was like in 1:45:00.040 --> 1:45:02.400 going on in Ukraine, and I got very interested. I 1:45:02.439 --> 1:45:04.240 was following him and all of his friends and what 1:45:04.280 --> 1:45:07.439 they were doing. And at that point, I had, you know, 1:45:08.120 --> 1:45:12.200 about four or five years of nonprofit humanitarian experience under 1:45:12.200 --> 1:45:14.680 my belt as long as as well as sort of 1:45:14.680 --> 1:45:20.160 a historical political understanding of the region. And so when 1:45:20.200 --> 1:45:24.840 the war happened, when the full scale invasion happened, I immediately 1:45:24.040 --> 1:45:26.479 started trying to fundraise, trying to help out, trying to educate, 1:45:27.200 --> 1:45:32.080 and mostly to try and cut through Russian propaganda because 1:45:32.080 --> 1:45:34.960 there were a lot of people in my sphere who 1:45:35.000 --> 1:45:39.960 were just retweeting straight up Russian propaganda. They were elevating 1:45:40.960 --> 1:45:43.240 you know what you and I know who are basically 1:45:43.760 --> 1:45:48.080 Kremlin adjacent individuals in the United States who have sway 1:45:48.160 --> 1:45:51.120 and leftist circles, some of whom have re emerged in 1:45:51.160 --> 1:45:53.919 the Palestine discussion, much to my chagrin. 1:45:54.240 --> 1:45:58.000 Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about that more later. 1:45:58.280 --> 1:45:58.960 I would love to. 1:45:58.880 --> 1:45:59.479 Get into that. 1:45:59.680 --> 1:46:02.960 Yeah, And so, yeah, in my hope was to kind 1:46:02.960 --> 1:46:04.880 of to do that, and as I was sort of 1:46:04.880 --> 1:46:07.479 working with Ukrainian It's one of the things they said is, hey, man, 1:46:07.560 --> 1:46:11.880 everything happens here. You have to be in Ukraine to 1:46:11.880 --> 1:46:13.639 get anything off the ground, So you need to come here. 1:46:13.680 --> 1:46:16.000 And I'm like, are you insane's there's a war going 1:46:16.000 --> 1:46:21.799 on in your country. So I said yes, and yes, yes, 1:46:22.040 --> 1:46:25.360 I am in retrospect. So second week of the war, 1:46:25.400 --> 1:46:28.040 I booked a plane ticket, flew over there, a crossed 1:46:28.080 --> 1:46:31.320 the train into Poland, scared out of my mind, got 1:46:31.360 --> 1:46:33.560 in touch with the Ukrainians I've been talking to previously, 1:46:33.880 --> 1:46:36.680 and after a mad hustle from the train station, was 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:39.800 very comfortably drinking tea and a cute little apartment in 1:46:39.880 --> 1:46:44.240 Leviv with somebody's grandmother, and I was like, this is 1:46:44.439 --> 1:46:48.240 this crazy experience. So I spent two months in Ukraine. 1:46:48.320 --> 1:46:51.000 At the beginning, my attention was to sort of identify 1:46:51.439 --> 1:46:55.840 gaps in the medical supply chain, particularly things that were 1:46:55.880 --> 1:46:58.439 going to be initially overlooked in the mad dash of 1:46:58.560 --> 1:47:01.240 refugees and reset men and all that sort of stuff. 1:47:01.960 --> 1:47:05.200 And one of the things we identified was like prescription 1:47:05.680 --> 1:47:10.080 medication for people coming from the east to the west. 1:47:10.160 --> 1:47:13.000 And yeah, I think it's important that not a lot 1:47:13.000 --> 1:47:15.559 of realized that people coming from eastern Ukraine, a lot 1:47:15.600 --> 1:47:19.439 of them had never visited cities like Leviv until the 1:47:19.479 --> 1:47:23.920 start of full scale invasion, predominantly Russian speakers, and you know, 1:47:24.040 --> 1:47:27.880 for them, Leviv was almost like going to Poland, and 1:47:27.960 --> 1:47:30.400 it was a very new thing for them. But you know, 1:47:30.439 --> 1:47:34.120 your medical issues don't stop just because someone invades their country. 1:47:34.160 --> 1:47:37.040 In fact, oftentimes they get worse. And so what I 1:47:37.040 --> 1:47:39.280 was trying to do initially was find a way to 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:47.480 address that, and that led me into contact with Rostaslov Philippinko, 1:47:47.560 --> 1:47:50.599 who's one of my dear friends and the co founder 1:47:50.600 --> 1:47:53.880 of the organization that we started together called Mission Harkiv. 1:47:54.280 --> 1:47:58.519 So that organization worked initially on prescription medications and then 1:47:59.240 --> 1:48:04.120 started distributing high end oncology drugs, which are very difficult 1:48:04.160 --> 1:48:08.360 to transport, very lucrative to steel, and very difficult to 1:48:08.400 --> 1:48:10.680 store because they have to be kept at a constant temperature. 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:14.240 So we focused on those things while everybody else was 1:48:14.240 --> 1:48:20.040 focusing on tints and you know, and clothes for refugees 1:48:20.080 --> 1:48:22.600 and that sort of stuff. And as a result, we 1:48:22.640 --> 1:48:24.880 carved out a very interesting niche in terms of the 1:48:24.960 --> 1:48:29.759 humanitarian response and are still going strong with that today. 1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:32.800 And so that was initially kind of why I went 1:48:32.880 --> 1:48:36.040 over there for that first two months, and since then 1:48:36.080 --> 1:48:40.240 I've been back over to film a documentary, sort of 1:48:40.280 --> 1:48:45.200 an artistic short documentary called Note of Defiance, and then 1:48:45.400 --> 1:48:48.360 I was involved with another documentary project which is hopefully 1:48:48.400 --> 1:48:49.639 forthcoming in the next year. 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:53.680 Nice. Yeah, I don't think I've talked about this on 1:48:53.720 --> 1:48:57.439 the show, but kind of my relationship with Ukraine and 1:48:57.640 --> 1:49:00.640 eventually going over there and starting to report on what 1:49:00.680 --> 1:49:04.040 was happening started weirdly enough as a result of the 1:49:04.040 --> 1:49:06.520 fact that I had friends who went to the big 1:49:06.600 --> 1:49:09.759 burning Man event in Nevada, and I wound up traveling 1:49:09.760 --> 1:49:13.120 with one of them in India, this Ukrainian woman who 1:49:13.160 --> 1:49:17.479 lived in the Bay and when stuff started in late 1:49:17.520 --> 1:49:20.040 twenty thirteen, which is when the Revolution of Dignity is 1:49:20.360 --> 1:49:22.400 kind of the common Ukrainian name for it. You'll also 1:49:22.400 --> 1:49:24.519 hear it referred to as like the twenty fourteen revolution 1:49:24.600 --> 1:49:27.840 of the Madan Revolution. They're all talking about the same thing, 1:49:27.920 --> 1:49:30.760 which is when the guy who was the President of 1:49:30.880 --> 1:49:33.960 Ukraine trying to make himself into a dictator. This dude, 1:49:34.000 --> 1:49:38.240 Victor Yanikovich, who is this incredibly wealthy oligarch who literally 1:49:38.240 --> 1:49:41.280 built a golden palace for himself with like a fake 1:49:41.400 --> 1:49:44.040 lake that had a boat on it, that was a restaurant. 1:49:43.520 --> 1:49:44.120 For just him. 1:49:44.120 --> 1:49:46.840 For like the level of rich oligarch asshole we're talking 1:49:46.880 --> 1:49:51.160 about here, cracked down really brutally on a student protest, 1:49:51.439 --> 1:49:54.960 which it kind of culminated in this kind of escalating 1:49:55.040 --> 1:49:59.000 occupation of the Center Square in the capitol that basically 1:49:59.000 --> 1:50:01.280 got built into an ice fortress and like the middle 1:50:01.360 --> 1:50:04.759 of the Ukrainian winter. This very very like pretty epic 1:50:04.920 --> 1:50:09.000 story of successful resistance because this guy is eventually forced 1:50:09.040 --> 1:50:12.160 out the police riot unit, the bearcoot who had done 1:50:12.320 --> 1:50:15.640 had been literally killing people by dropping them naked, and 1:50:15.760 --> 1:50:18.800 like ice drifts and stuff, are disbanded. It's a really 1:50:18.840 --> 1:50:21.720 remarkable story and I just kind of fell into it 1:50:21.760 --> 1:50:25.000 because my friend connected me with a couple of people 1:50:25.040 --> 1:50:27.240 who were on the ground there who were friends of hers, 1:50:27.280 --> 1:50:31.240 who were Ukrainians in the tech industry who traveled to 1:50:31.920 --> 1:50:34.400 the US every year or so for Burning Man and 1:50:34.479 --> 1:50:37.719 so when this occupation of the Maidan started, they were like, well, 1:50:38.000 --> 1:50:40.559 we know how to, like we're used to making soup 1:50:40.640 --> 1:50:43.120 and food for large numbers of people and like running 1:50:43.120 --> 1:50:45.639 little chunks of a camp, so we'll just start We'll 1:50:45.680 --> 1:50:47.759 just do the thing that we do at our camp 1:50:47.760 --> 1:50:50.240 out over in Maidan. They were part of the thing 1:50:50.240 --> 1:50:52.240 they were part of was the Automidon, which was this 1:50:52.400 --> 1:50:56.440 like mobile unit of resupply where people would like basically 1:50:56.760 --> 1:51:00.040 drive supplies to and from different areas of occupation in 1:51:00.160 --> 1:51:03.240 the city. It was a pretty dangerous job as things escalated, 1:51:03.240 --> 1:51:04.759 but that was my ind and I wound up talking 1:51:04.800 --> 1:51:07.760 to like, I don't know, twenty or thirty people like 1:51:08.000 --> 1:51:11.160 actively the entire time the occupation was going on. There's 1:51:11.160 --> 1:51:13.639 like two folks I never was able to get back 1:51:13.680 --> 1:51:15.840 in touch with who just kind of like dropped off 1:51:15.920 --> 1:51:18.200 at a certain point. Like it was a really sketchy 1:51:18.240 --> 1:51:19.680 time for a lot of people. But I wound up 1:51:19.720 --> 1:51:23.920 traveling there the year after, right after the early part 1:51:23.920 --> 1:51:26.720 of the invasion, started to report from Avdifka, which is, 1:51:27.200 --> 1:51:29.960 you know, was had been under siege for a year 1:51:30.120 --> 1:51:32.760 at that point and is still under siege today, for 1:51:32.800 --> 1:51:35.720 an idea of like that's a decade now basically that 1:51:36.240 --> 1:51:38.479 this this little town has been shelled. 1:51:39.520 --> 1:51:43.120 Yeah, anyway, Yeah, I didn't know that about burning Man. 1:51:43.200 --> 1:51:45.759 That's well, it was a weird. 1:51:45.520 --> 1:51:47.639 Way to get connected to it. Yeah. I just got 1:51:47.640 --> 1:51:50.280 a message from this friend of mine who was like, hey, 1:51:49.840 --> 1:51:53.519 somebodies from my camp are like trying to overthrow their government. 1:51:53.560 --> 1:51:54.519 Do you want to talk to them. 1:51:54.960 --> 1:51:57.280 I was like, well, yeah, that sounds pretty dope. 1:51:57.479 --> 1:52:01.559 Yes, that's your remo. That's wild. 1:52:01.640 --> 1:52:04.439 You know what burning Man really does apply It provides, 1:52:04.800 --> 1:52:07.599 It really connects all, doesn't it. I have some weird 1:52:07.680 --> 1:52:09.559 like tangential burning I've never been. 1:52:09.439 --> 1:52:11.680 But I have like neither of I actually yeah. 1:52:11.439 --> 1:52:14.000 I'd like Burning Man devotees who play a large role 1:52:14.040 --> 1:52:15.679 in my life and it's just very interesting. 1:52:16.000 --> 1:52:18.760 Yeah, yeah, the weird little connections you get. And I 1:52:18.800 --> 1:52:20.840 was kind of disappointed, you know. To me, this was 1:52:20.920 --> 1:52:24.040 because the whole time, especially like the late twenty thirteen 1:52:24.080 --> 1:52:27.439 early twenty fourteen, as this was going on, I was like, well, 1:52:27.439 --> 1:52:29.960 they're probably all going to get killed, right, like just 1:52:31.040 --> 1:52:34.240 you know, we were several years in the Syrian Civil 1:52:34.280 --> 1:52:37.640 War at this point, Like I was not optimistic, and 1:52:37.680 --> 1:52:40.680 that's not what happened. And then there was like this 1:52:40.760 --> 1:52:43.960 counterpoint of realizing a few years later that oh, a 1:52:44.000 --> 1:52:45.960 shocking number of people on the left think it was 1:52:46.000 --> 1:52:50.960 a bad thing that they overthrew their government. Yeah, which, yeah, 1:52:51.040 --> 1:52:54.040 I guess gets us into like the kind of thing 1:52:54.080 --> 1:52:55.960 you wanted to talk about, which is the difference in 1:52:56.000 --> 1:53:01.880 providing military aid to Ukraine versus Israel. Yeah, which I 1:53:01.920 --> 1:53:05.439 don't know. I mean, from my standpoint, it's pretty obvious, right, Like, 1:53:06.479 --> 1:53:10.200 one country is fighting a military that has a massive 1:53:10.200 --> 1:53:13.639 industrial base, much more powerful than it and is killing 1:53:13.760 --> 1:53:18.080 large numbers of civilians, and they have proven their ability 1:53:18.120 --> 1:53:23.720 with military aid to react effectively to this invasion. And 1:53:23.760 --> 1:53:26.080 the other case, I don't think I need to explain 1:53:26.120 --> 1:53:28.439 which one, but it's Israel is a country with a 1:53:28.439 --> 1:53:31.400 massive arms industry that is fighting people who have no 1:53:31.560 --> 1:53:35.640 arms industry of any kind and primarily killing civilians. So 1:53:36.000 --> 1:53:38.439 I can very easily justify one of those groups of 1:53:38.439 --> 1:53:40.960 people getting US weapons and one of them not needing 1:53:41.000 --> 1:53:42.200 any additional weapons. 1:53:43.840 --> 1:53:44.479 That's right, ye. 1:53:44.760 --> 1:53:47.680 See, Robert. None of that is justified because of the 1:53:47.720 --> 1:53:53.200 existence of the Ashok Battalion. There is no right for 1:53:53.240 --> 1:53:56.599 any Ukrainian grandmother to get access to her insulin because 1:53:56.640 --> 1:53:59.400 there's a couple of Nea Nazis that were stationed in Mariople. 1:54:00.200 --> 1:54:03.160 But truly, that is that is about how sophisticated. A 1:54:03.200 --> 1:54:06.920 lot of the leftist critiques of the Ukraine of supporting 1:54:07.040 --> 1:54:09.760 Ukraine are I think a lot of it comes in 1:54:10.640 --> 1:54:12.479 one of the things that I talk about, and I 1:54:12.520 --> 1:54:15.519 talked with Sharin about this when we went on Instagram 1:54:15.560 --> 1:54:19.160 Live together. Is that a lot of leftists seem to 1:54:19.200 --> 1:54:22.160 live in kind of a weird, little cinematic universe where 1:54:22.160 --> 1:54:24.759 only the US and Israel can be the bad guys, 1:54:25.360 --> 1:54:27.880 and by extension, France and the UK, you know, and 1:54:28.040 --> 1:54:31.439 YadA YadA. But as a result of that, they have 1:54:31.560 --> 1:54:35.960 this just really strange view of global affairs that literally 1:54:36.000 --> 1:54:39.320 no one in the countries they're talking about share. Somehow, 1:54:39.480 --> 1:54:43.200 Russia and Iran and China and Cuba are all aligned 1:54:43.280 --> 1:54:46.839 in a sort of anti imperial axis because they oppose 1:54:46.920 --> 1:54:50.480 the interests of NATO and the United States. And I 1:54:50.520 --> 1:54:55.920 think that's just so, that's that's patently ridiculous, but it 1:54:55.960 --> 1:54:59.360 plays a big role in conversations like what's going on 1:54:59.360 --> 1:55:03.560 in Palestine. Yes, people will invoke, well, why are you 1:55:03.560 --> 1:55:06.560 giving all this money to Ukraine instead of giving money 1:55:06.560 --> 1:55:10.040 to people the relief for the Maui fires, or you know, 1:55:10.440 --> 1:55:13.640 doing why are we doing medical medicare for all? So 1:55:13.680 --> 1:55:16.960 it's like it's a convenient because it's the military industrial complex, 1:55:17.080 --> 1:55:19.120 it's the Iraq War, it's all these things that we 1:55:19.160 --> 1:55:22.640 as leftists were taught to hate. But it's they're being 1:55:22.680 --> 1:55:25.080 used for good. It's like America is actually being the 1:55:25.200 --> 1:55:27.640 arsenal democracy and doing the thing that we did in 1:55:27.680 --> 1:55:30.880 World War Two that helped the Soviet Union march into Berlin. 1:55:31.440 --> 1:55:33.560 Well, and it's also, I think an important thing to 1:55:33.600 --> 1:55:36.600 notice when we talk about the it's always framed as 1:55:36.640 --> 1:55:39.040 the US is giving this amount of money to Ukraine. 1:55:39.480 --> 1:55:43.920 What's what's happening is we are taking stockpiles of arms 1:55:43.960 --> 1:55:46.600 we already have worth that much money, and we are 1:55:46.640 --> 1:55:49.880 sending them there like they're not right like that that 1:55:50.080 --> 1:55:54.520 is overwhelmingly like the the what kind of aid we 1:55:54.600 --> 1:55:57.680 are sending over So these are extant weapons that are 1:55:57.760 --> 1:56:02.000 sitting in the US doing nothing and being like the Bradley's. 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:04.400 We didn't just build a bunch of new Bradley's. We 1:56:04.440 --> 1:56:06.879 had a shitload of them. We weren't using them anymore 1:56:06.920 --> 1:56:09.360 because they were not very useful in the conflicts that 1:56:09.760 --> 1:56:10.960 we were fighting. 1:56:10.680 --> 1:56:13.080 Right that Bradley is Mrs Yeah. 1:56:13.640 --> 1:56:16.400 The United States is like really itching to like need 1:56:16.480 --> 1:56:19.000 high Mars right now. No, Like, all of this stuff 1:56:19.000 --> 1:56:22.120 we're sending to them has been mothballed for basically since 1:56:22.120 --> 1:56:24.600 the Goal War, and people don't understand that. 1:56:25.200 --> 1:56:27.040 It is funny to me to imagine, like, yeah, let's 1:56:27.040 --> 1:56:29.880 send that stuff to Maui for the fires. That's what 1:56:29.920 --> 1:56:33.160 they need, is they need long range artillery. That's really 1:56:33.160 --> 1:56:35.400 gonna that's really gonna help them heal. 1:56:36.080 --> 1:56:40.160 I'm in favor of sending lethal aid to the indigenous 1:56:40.200 --> 1:56:42.120 residents of Maui, but I think that's it, that's. 1:56:43.520 --> 1:56:43.600 It. 1:56:43.600 --> 1:56:46.520 You talked me into it. And I think we have 1:56:46.680 --> 1:56:49.240 enough mothballed tanks for both of these causes. 1:56:49.440 --> 1:56:51.000 Yeah, I think. 1:56:50.840 --> 1:56:54.360 For me, the comparisons for Ukraine and Palestine, it started 1:56:54.400 --> 1:56:57.800 with how it was presented in the media. It just 1:56:57.840 --> 1:57:00.160 it rought people the wrong way when the Ukraine Median 1:57:00.200 --> 1:57:02.400 struggle was presented in a certain way and the Palestinian 1:57:02.480 --> 1:57:05.600 struggle was not, and people can draw some draw a 1:57:05.640 --> 1:57:10.040 comparison like whiteness and all this stuff. Absolutely, yeah, and 1:57:10.080 --> 1:57:12.680 I just it got me, really, it really irritates me 1:57:12.720 --> 1:57:14.720 because it's not like the Oppression Olympics, Like we're not 1:57:14.760 --> 1:57:20.240 trying to compare or demonize Ukrainians. We should demonize the 1:57:20.280 --> 1:57:23.680 media for not representing Palestinians in the right way. But 1:57:24.160 --> 1:57:26.160 I think that is kind of the origin of the 1:57:26.160 --> 1:57:27.280 comparison that I saw. 1:57:27.360 --> 1:57:31.760 Anyway, Yeah, and I think that's that's really worth digging into, 1:57:31.840 --> 1:57:35.160 because there's a couple of First off, it is absolutely 1:57:35.160 --> 1:57:39.360 an injustice that Ukrainian resistance and that light is seen 1:57:39.440 --> 1:57:43.680 as inherently just and not just. Palestinian resistance is demonized 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:46.560 or often ignored, But like all sorts of resistance by 1:57:46.600 --> 1:57:49.920 people who are being harmed around the world, it partially 1:57:49.960 --> 1:57:51.760 is or in large part as a result of like 1:57:51.880 --> 1:57:55.080 US and other Western countries policies are not seen in 1:57:55.080 --> 1:57:57.840 the same light as Ukrainian resistance. I certainly agree with 1:57:57.920 --> 1:58:01.200 that stance. That's not the refault of anybody in Ukraine. Right, 1:58:01.320 --> 1:58:04.000 this is we are not talking about a country that 1:58:04.160 --> 1:58:07.720 exercises power on the global stage. We are talking about 1:58:08.040 --> 1:58:13.120 a cash poor nation that has been struggling with Russian 1:58:13.160 --> 1:58:16.280 imperialism for most of the time that most of the 1:58:16.320 --> 1:58:19.120 people listening this, actually all of the time that everybody 1:58:19.160 --> 1:58:23.200 listening to this has been alive in one form or another, right, Yes, 1:58:23.320 --> 1:58:25.360 And so I think it's perfectly fair to point out 1:58:25.520 --> 1:58:28.879 the ways in which the media reports unequally on these conflicts, 1:58:28.880 --> 1:58:31.440 on what's happening in Palestine, what's happening on stuff like Buka, 1:58:31.720 --> 1:58:34.440 and on the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza, right, 1:58:34.520 --> 1:58:36.800 I think that that is worth pointing out, But it's 1:58:36.840 --> 1:58:40.680 also not worth blaming Ukrainians over they are not participating 1:58:40.720 --> 1:58:43.680 in that just by saying, hey, it's bad that our 1:58:43.680 --> 1:58:47.480 civilians are being massacred by rockets, right and other forms 1:58:47.480 --> 1:58:52.160 of weaponry. By the way, like that that's not on them, Yeah. 1:58:52.120 --> 1:58:54.840 I think so also kind of flip that on its head. 1:58:55.080 --> 1:58:57.360 I mean, this part of it is the media narrative. 1:58:57.400 --> 1:59:00.800 You know, it's easier. Ukrainians are mostly hot white people 1:59:01.280 --> 1:59:03.320 in the eye of the Western media, and it's easy 1:59:03.360 --> 1:59:06.280 to cheer for the hot white people who have you know, 1:59:06.360 --> 1:59:09.520 everyone everyone. A lot of people have been to Ukrainian restaurant, 1:59:09.640 --> 1:59:12.360 they're familiar with some Ukrainian maybe songs, so they have 1:59:12.400 --> 1:59:13.960 friends if they live in a place like la or 1:59:14.040 --> 1:59:17.040 New York, you know Ukrainians, you're familiar maybe even with 1:59:17.080 --> 1:59:20.640 some Ukrainian media. And it's and it's kind of like 1:59:20.840 --> 1:59:23.240 this accessible thing, you know. And also like there's other 1:59:23.280 --> 1:59:25.080 aspects of it to which you're even stranger, which is 1:59:25.120 --> 1:59:29.440 that Ukraines produces like a huge amount of the world's 1:59:29.440 --> 1:59:32.960 fashion models. Like that's a very accessible thing. For people 1:59:33.000 --> 1:59:34.880 to get behind in the nice liberal media. And you 1:59:34.880 --> 1:59:37.600 could see these in these initial broadcasts being like I've 1:59:37.640 --> 1:59:40.880 never seen anything like this with seeing all these European 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:44.120 looking refugees and it's like a right, they're multlearly. 1:59:44.200 --> 1:59:46.480 Like that where they're these are not Arabs like they 1:59:46.520 --> 1:59:49.040 say it with their chests, you know, like these these 1:59:49.040 --> 1:59:50.080 are people like us. 1:59:50.640 --> 1:59:53.520 But for the flip side of that is that that 1:59:53.680 --> 1:59:58.320 leftists are reluctant to be charitable to Ukrainians because they 1:59:58.360 --> 2:00:00.520 also see them as hot white people who don't need 2:00:00.560 --> 2:00:06.960 any help. Yeah, and they're unwilling to admit that Ukrainian Ukrainians, 2:00:07.120 --> 2:00:11.760 like Gosans, also suffer from a settler colonial state as 2:00:11.760 --> 2:00:15.560 their neighbor with a history of ethnically cleansing and genociding them. 2:00:15.720 --> 2:00:17.880 Yeah, I mean part of the reason for that is 2:00:17.920 --> 2:00:20.960 that the neighbor that ethnically cleansed in gen well one 2:00:20.960 --> 2:00:23.800 of them, because actually they had several neighbors ethnically cleansing 2:00:23.840 --> 2:00:27.360 genocide them. But the Soviet Union like did a significant 2:00:27.400 --> 2:00:30.160 amount of that during the Holy Dulmar. Now Germans also 2:00:30.200 --> 2:00:33.760 carried out a massive genocide in Ukraine like and by 2:00:33.800 --> 2:00:36.480 the way, a huge number of the Red Army soldiers 2:00:36.600 --> 2:00:41.520 who successfully helped defeat the Nazis were Ukrainians. As a note, 2:00:41.920 --> 2:00:43.880 this is you often see this thing where people will 2:00:43.880 --> 2:00:47.520 point out there were a significant number of Ukrainians that 2:00:47.560 --> 2:00:50.520 fought with the Nazis, and they tend to ignore that, like, yeah, 2:00:50.520 --> 2:00:52.760 and there were even more Ukrainians who fought with the 2:00:52.760 --> 2:00:55.800 Red Army. Like both of those things happened. It was 2:00:55.840 --> 2:00:58.080 a world war and Ukraine was right in the middle 2:00:58.120 --> 2:01:01.200 of it. It's a very ugly situation, and it kind 2:01:01.200 --> 2:01:03.240 of comes down to this inability of a lot of 2:01:03.280 --> 2:01:08.800 people to not even nuanced to care about accuracy when 2:01:08.840 --> 2:01:12.839 that accuracy is not like ideologically convenient, when it points 2:01:12.840 --> 2:01:15.720 to some of the ugliness and messiness of war. I 2:01:17.040 --> 2:01:20.520 find that very frustrating. Like I sympathize with because I 2:01:20.560 --> 2:01:23.839 was reporting on the Syrian refugee crisis from the refugee 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:27.960 trail right after actually I was in Ukraine, and it 2:01:28.040 --> 2:01:32.200 is unfair that like Ukrainian refugees were treated differently. But 2:01:32.360 --> 2:01:34.520 the people to blame for that is the news media, 2:01:34.680 --> 2:01:38.720 not refugees who have lost their homes. In fact, I 2:01:38.760 --> 2:01:43.640 suspect that a lot of Ukrainians have a different attitude 2:01:43.640 --> 2:01:46.720 themselves towards the suffering that they witness during that period 2:01:46.760 --> 2:01:49.040 of time because they've now been through it. It's just 2:01:49.120 --> 2:01:51.400 like a human thing now, you know what that's like. 2:01:52.640 --> 2:01:56.680 Yeah, I mean as a Syrian person who oh, for 2:01:56.760 --> 2:02:00.720 the past like over a decade, I really really fucking 2:02:00.720 --> 2:02:02.880 got on my nerves every time I would see them 2:02:03.000 --> 2:02:04.800 not talk about Syria, or when they did it was 2:02:05.240 --> 2:02:09.120 not a good way. And then when they started really 2:02:09.160 --> 2:02:12.560 embracing Ukrainian refugees or talking about them in a different way, 2:02:12.600 --> 2:02:14.400 I'm not gonna lie, it made me mad, but not 2:02:14.440 --> 2:02:18.720 at Ukrainians. Like I think even now, we should have 2:02:18.760 --> 2:02:20.600 criticized the media back then, but like they're doing the 2:02:20.600 --> 2:02:23.520 same thing now with their fucking headlines about Israel and Palestine. 2:02:23.560 --> 2:02:28.040 It's always how it's presented versus the people it's presenting. 2:02:28.120 --> 2:02:30.520 Like when someone when some dumb newscaster is standing in 2:02:30.520 --> 2:02:33.560 front of a group of Ukrainian refugees behind him and 2:02:33.600 --> 2:02:35.720 he's like, these are not Arabs, these are white people. 2:02:36.040 --> 2:02:38.920 They didn't say that he did, so I don't know. 2:02:39.200 --> 2:02:43.600 Yeah, And also like I encourage everyone to ask Ukrainian, 2:02:43.720 --> 2:02:47.440 particularly Eastern Ukrainians' opinions on the Western media and like 2:02:47.520 --> 2:02:50.120 Westerners in general, because two years into this war, they 2:02:50.120 --> 2:02:52.920 have a lot of them, and I imagine that they 2:02:52.960 --> 2:02:54.960 would you would find a lot of the sentiments shared 2:02:55.040 --> 2:02:57.720 by the Ukrainians. They don't always appreciate how they're portrayed 2:02:57.840 --> 2:03:01.000 in the Western media, as you know, brave defenders of 2:03:01.040 --> 2:03:05.000 their country or sook covered refugees coming off of a railcar. 2:03:06.000 --> 2:03:08.640 You know, they have a lot of opinions on these 2:03:08.640 --> 2:03:13.200 sorts of things. They feel patronized, they feel babied in 2:03:13.240 --> 2:03:16.480 some senses, and they feel like they will be ultimately 2:03:16.520 --> 2:03:20.240 abandoned by us, which is already coming to pass. Yeah, 2:03:20.520 --> 2:03:24.120 and as the attention shifts to things like Gaza, you know, 2:03:24.160 --> 2:03:26.520 it's difficult for them to feel like they have any friends. 2:03:26.760 --> 2:03:29.200 Yeah, no, I want to get into that. But let's 2:03:29.200 --> 2:03:31.760 take our first break, and yes, we will jump back 2:03:31.800 --> 2:03:46.240 in and we're back. Okay. We had just been talking 2:03:46.240 --> 2:03:52.240 about how the support for Ukraine has kind of changed recently. 2:03:52.280 --> 2:03:54.200 Can you get into that little bit. 2:03:55.720 --> 2:03:59.200 I'm not even necessarily sure that it changed so recently. 2:03:59.400 --> 2:04:02.520 I remembering over there and it was wall to wall 2:04:02.560 --> 2:04:06.080 coverage from the moment I set foot from the moment 2:04:06.120 --> 2:04:09.600 it started to really up until the Oscars and the 2:04:09.680 --> 2:04:12.600 Chris Rock slap is what we all talked about as 2:04:12.720 --> 2:04:16.520 last oxers, like this is yeah, the last Oscars and 2:04:16.560 --> 2:04:20.200 the Chris Rock slap and all the attention that that got. 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:23.720 Was the moment that a lot of the volunteers talked about, 2:04:23.840 --> 2:04:27.000 is the moment where people started to want to forget 2:04:27.000 --> 2:04:29.200 about Ukraine. There was still a lot of coverage, but 2:04:29.320 --> 2:04:31.920 suddenly it was like, you don't have to be obsessed 2:04:32.000 --> 2:04:35.800 with Ukraine. You know, Ukraine's now a second page story 2:04:35.840 --> 2:04:38.560 instead of a first page story. That was around the 2:04:38.560 --> 2:04:42.280 same time that the Russians withdrew from Kiev, So suddenly 2:04:42.320 --> 2:04:45.680 there wasn't there wasn't this expectation that Kiev was going 2:04:45.760 --> 2:04:49.320 to fall and the capital be taken in Zelensky would 2:04:49.320 --> 2:04:53.240 be captured, and it started to slow up. Even then, 2:04:53.320 --> 2:04:56.320 you know, the donations dried up, the attention dried up, 2:04:56.640 --> 2:04:58.040 and by the time I went there in the winter 2:04:58.120 --> 2:05:01.120 of twenty twenty three last year, it was like people 2:05:01.160 --> 2:05:03.080 already wanted to forget. I mean, I live in Los 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:05.720 Angeles and a lot of people here were saying things like, 2:05:05.720 --> 2:05:09.720 oh wow, is that still going on? Really nice, well 2:05:09.800 --> 2:05:12.240 meaning people who knew I'd been over there. They were 2:05:12.320 --> 2:05:14.480 just like, is that you know, is that still a 2:05:14.520 --> 2:05:15.480 war going on? 2:05:16.240 --> 2:05:16.440 Yeah? 2:05:16.480 --> 2:05:18.680 Here we are in twenty days. It's going to be 2:05:18.760 --> 2:05:22.600 two years of this. Yeah, my friends over there are exhausted, 2:05:22.680 --> 2:05:25.760 and they don't They're now a page eight story. 2:05:26.200 --> 2:05:26.880 Yeah. 2:05:26.920 --> 2:05:30.160 And it's this comes back to like how Americans like 2:05:30.280 --> 2:05:34.120 to think about conflict. We have an enormous appetite for 2:05:35.080 --> 2:05:38.680 war and for you know, a particularly what we consider 2:05:38.720 --> 2:05:41.960 a just struggle for up to a couple of months, right, 2:05:42.400 --> 2:05:45.720 and then people were very excited when, yeah, the Russians 2:05:45.760 --> 2:05:49.440 invade everyone. The expectation, both from like military experts in 2:05:49.480 --> 2:05:52.160 the West and from certainly civilians is that like Russia's 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:54.600 going to crush them immediately, and then they don't. There's 2:05:54.600 --> 2:05:58.080 this real upset, come from behind, underdog victory and Americans 2:05:58.120 --> 2:06:00.720 love that, but then like it, it's not a total 2:06:01.080 --> 2:06:03.880 immediate victory, and in fact, it turns into at this 2:06:04.000 --> 2:06:08.640 point and really really brutal, ugly slow war of attrition 2:06:08.840 --> 2:06:13.000 and maneuver, which is like what war is, right, Like 2:06:13.040 --> 2:06:16.400 that that's how any sort of near peer conflict is 2:06:16.440 --> 2:06:19.440 going to boil out. And it's not a kind of 2:06:19.480 --> 2:06:21.520 thing that is resolved quickly, and it's not a kind 2:06:21.560 --> 2:06:24.920 of thing that is resolved without cost. And as soon 2:06:24.960 --> 2:06:28.080 as that became clear Americans, it didn't. It doesn't fit 2:06:28.160 --> 2:06:31.080 into that like ninety minute Hollywood vision of how a 2:06:31.160 --> 2:06:33.520 conflict is supposed to go right. There was no The 2:06:33.600 --> 2:06:36.280 Ukrainians didn't blow up a death star and end it right, 2:06:36.440 --> 2:06:38.920 like I mean, actually that's not what happens in the 2:06:38.960 --> 2:06:41.800 movies either, but like it's it's still it was not 2:06:42.600 --> 2:06:45.000 the quick, clean end that a lot of people were 2:06:45.000 --> 2:06:48.920 expecting and hoping for. And as a result, people are like, well, 2:06:49.360 --> 2:06:51.480 now it's a quagmire and now it's like we have 2:06:51.560 --> 2:06:54.360 to start looking for some way out of this thing, 2:06:54.600 --> 2:06:58.000 which by the way, has cost us very little. Like 2:06:58.040 --> 2:07:01.480 my stance on like when is this over is like, well, 2:07:01.520 --> 2:07:05.080 I guess when Ukraine says it's over, right, Like if 2:07:05.120 --> 2:07:08.320 the Ukrainians want to come to the negotiating table and 2:07:08.440 --> 2:07:11.600 negotiating into hostilities, then like that's their business. But up 2:07:11.640 --> 2:07:14.360 until that point, I think the business of the United 2:07:14.400 --> 2:07:18.360 States is to continue to meet our treaty obligations, which 2:07:18.360 --> 2:07:20.960 we should we should note like the United States and 2:07:21.080 --> 2:07:24.960 NATO are obligated to support Ukraine in a war over 2:07:25.040 --> 2:07:29.880 its sovereignty because they gave up their nukes with that understanding, right, 2:07:30.000 --> 2:07:30.320 this is. 2:07:30.240 --> 2:07:31.879 What happened when Retail the country. 2:07:32.000 --> 2:07:34.240 Yeah, yeah, we said you give up your nukes and 2:07:34.280 --> 2:07:36.200 we got your back, like this is this was the 2:07:36.240 --> 2:07:39.240 promise we made And as far as I'm concerned, that's 2:07:39.280 --> 2:07:41.880 the only interest I haven't like. My answer is like, 2:07:41.880 --> 2:07:43.600 how long should we support them? Well, as long as 2:07:43.600 --> 2:07:45.640 they're fighting, and. 2:07:45.600 --> 2:07:49.000 We've been keeping that promise for the cost of five 2:07:49.080 --> 2:07:52.200 percent of our defense budget. And like you mentioned earlier, 2:07:52.320 --> 2:07:55.480 it's it's already stuff that's mothballed since the Gulf War, 2:07:55.760 --> 2:07:57.720 sitting around waiting to be used. 2:07:58.000 --> 2:07:58.200 You know. 2:07:58.240 --> 2:08:00.000 I mean the idea of giving them F sixteen. 2:08:00.400 --> 2:08:05.040 Every country in the world, practically, at least in the 2:08:05.120 --> 2:08:07.320 NATO Alliance, it seems like everyone has an F sixteen. 2:08:07.360 --> 2:08:10.240 I think we're giving them a turkey now too, Like 2:08:10.920 --> 2:08:12.880 it's not a big deal to give a couple of 2:08:12.920 --> 2:08:16.080 F sixteens to the Ukrainians or a couple of Bradleys 2:08:16.400 --> 2:08:19.640 or Abrams or what have you. And I think that people, 2:08:22.000 --> 2:08:24.000 especially on the right, but also on the left, who 2:08:24.120 --> 2:08:26.160 get obsessed over the amount of money that we're sending 2:08:26.280 --> 2:08:28.360 or the amount of equipment in personnel. Especially when they 2:08:28.440 --> 2:08:31.879 see these stories about corruption, they don't they don't understand 2:08:31.880 --> 2:08:34.600 the scale of how small this actually is relative to 2:08:34.600 --> 2:08:39.560 the United States other commitments, like to Israel, and they 2:08:39.600 --> 2:08:43.880 get sort of myopically focused on this and they use 2:08:43.880 --> 2:08:46.200 it as a reason to dislike Ukraine. The Right will 2:08:46.200 --> 2:08:48.600 never like Ukraine because Zelensky was the guy who made 2:08:48.600 --> 2:08:50.920 Trump look bad and got him impeached. I think it's 2:08:50.920 --> 2:08:53.800 that simple. Yeah, it's wild that like well, also, I 2:08:53.800 --> 2:08:56.040 mean the Russian interference and stuff. You know, the Republican 2:08:56.040 --> 2:08:58.680 Party now resembles Russia more. But it's wild that Republicans, 2:08:58.720 --> 2:09:00.800 you know, thirty years ago were super anti Russia and 2:09:00.840 --> 2:09:03.520 now the Russia's best friend, and they think Ukraine are 2:09:03.720 --> 2:09:07.400 sort of Satanist whatever, yeah, to and on corrupt people. 2:09:08.160 --> 2:09:12.200 And it's to kind of emphasize how small five percent 2:09:12.240 --> 2:09:16.200 of the Defense Department budget is the Pentagon. This is 2:09:16.240 --> 2:09:19.640 from like a twenty twenty two story. The Pentagon can't 2:09:19.680 --> 2:09:23.800 account for several trillion dollars in assets, which doesn't mean 2:09:23.800 --> 2:09:26.160 we don't fully know where they are, but it means 2:09:26.200 --> 2:09:30.080 that like Pentagon record keeping has sort of like lost 2:09:30.680 --> 2:09:34.120 huge amounts of assets over the years. At the moment, 2:09:34.520 --> 2:09:38.640 like right now, the Pentagon, like as of November twenty sixteen, 2:09:38.640 --> 2:09:41.200 had failed six audits in a row, and as far 2:09:41.200 --> 2:09:42.760 as I can tell, I don't think they've actually ever 2:09:43.080 --> 2:09:46.080 passed an audit of like all of their resources. Like 2:09:46.440 --> 2:09:50.440 there's huge amounts trillions of dollars in assets that like 2:09:50.520 --> 2:09:54.960 we can't fully document. It's it's when you think about 2:09:54.960 --> 2:09:57.320 like the amount of money that we've actually sent over 2:09:57.360 --> 2:09:59.640 there as a defense or as a percentage of just 2:09:59.680 --> 2:10:03.000 like this stuff that we can't fully account for in 2:10:03.040 --> 2:10:07.120 our militaries, like Arsenal, it's a tiny fraction of that, 2:10:07.240 --> 2:10:10.800 let alone a fraction of like our Defense Department's total assets. 2:10:11.320 --> 2:10:13.240 And it also this gets back to when people talk 2:10:13.240 --> 2:10:16.720 about like corruption in Ukraine, and by god, Ukraine has 2:10:16.800 --> 2:10:19.200 a history of government corruption, which is part of what 2:10:19.240 --> 2:10:22.800 the revolution in twenty fourteen was about, right, But it's 2:10:22.840 --> 2:10:25.480 particularly silly to complain about that as a reason not 2:10:25.640 --> 2:10:29.240 to send them weaponry when we know the US Defense 2:10:29.280 --> 2:10:33.920 Department is massively corrupt, a huge amount of corruption involving 2:10:34.000 --> 2:10:37.640 not just like not specifically even like military officials, but 2:10:37.720 --> 2:10:41.800 involving civilian contractors, involving like the agencies we contract to, 2:10:41.920 --> 2:10:45.360 involving the money that we've sent over the course of 2:10:45.400 --> 2:10:47.600 like the eight trillion dollars or so that we've spent 2:10:48.040 --> 2:10:50.760 on the war on Terror. A huge chunk of that, 2:10:51.080 --> 2:10:53.000 hundreds of billions of dollars of the money that we 2:10:53.040 --> 2:10:55.960 spent on the war on Terror is just gone. Billions 2:10:55.960 --> 2:10:58.200 of it disappeared in the form of cash pallets that 2:10:58.280 --> 2:11:02.000 we just lost, right, Like, this is the amount of 2:11:02.040 --> 2:11:04.680 money that it has cost us to support Ukraine in 2:11:04.720 --> 2:11:07.600 this war. Is a rounding error of the shit we 2:11:07.720 --> 2:11:10.920 lost just as a matter of business, Like it just 2:11:10.960 --> 2:11:12.080 adds like it's like. 2:11:12.040 --> 2:11:15.240 A rounding earrow of like what we gave to Halliburton. 2:11:15.080 --> 2:11:17.920 Yes, you know, yes, to build hospitals that didn't work 2:11:17.960 --> 2:11:18.920 in Afghanistan. 2:11:19.520 --> 2:11:20.600 Yeah, exactly. 2:11:20.920 --> 2:11:23.080 In speaking of Afghanistan, I think a lot of people 2:11:23.120 --> 2:11:26.560 look at you, they look at the Afghanistan withdrawal and 2:11:26.640 --> 2:11:28.760 they think, oh, this is what Ukraine's going to be like. 2:11:29.200 --> 2:11:31.000 But I think that brings up the point of story, 2:11:31.080 --> 2:11:33.760 what are we getting for that five percent of defense budget? 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:36.600 You know, we gave a bunch to afghan and we 2:11:36.680 --> 2:11:38.640 ended up getting the same situation that we had when 2:11:38.640 --> 2:11:39.840 we went in there in two thousand and one, the 2:11:39.920 --> 2:11:43.000 Taliban and control. But now they have billions of dollars 2:11:43.040 --> 2:11:46.200 worth of America the state of the art American military equipment. 2:11:45.840 --> 2:11:48.440 And hundreds of thousands of Afghan people died in the 2:11:48.440 --> 2:11:50.000 interim exactly. 2:11:50.640 --> 2:11:53.000 And then you contrast that with like, well, what is 2:11:53.000 --> 2:11:55.440 our five percent of military budget? Get us in Ukraine 2:11:55.920 --> 2:11:58.480 and you look at what this is doing to Russia. 2:11:58.720 --> 2:12:03.080 Russia gained abou zero point one percent of Ukrainian territory 2:12:03.120 --> 2:12:05.320 in the year twenty twenty three, second year of war, 2:12:05.920 --> 2:12:09.120 and to do that they lost about one hundred thousand soldiers. 2:12:09.960 --> 2:12:12.760 Now there's a lot of people in Russia, and that's 2:12:12.760 --> 2:12:14.400 always been the thing about Russia is that they have 2:12:14.480 --> 2:12:17.400 these this depth of recruiting that they can pull on, 2:12:18.160 --> 2:12:23.080 but they're taking out recruiting ads in like Saint Petersburg, 2:12:23.560 --> 2:12:27.080 in Moscow, and in like the wealthy that they're going 2:12:27.120 --> 2:12:31.280 hard on, like recruiting from wealthy urban centers instead of 2:12:31.320 --> 2:12:33.920 sort of the traditional rural areas where they bring in 2:12:33.960 --> 2:12:36.760 all their recruits, which which is evidence to me that 2:12:37.400 --> 2:12:40.800 they're suffering from a manpower shortage in the same way 2:12:40.840 --> 2:12:43.200 that the Ukrainians are. Yeah, and that's one of the 2:12:43.200 --> 2:12:46.880 things that particularly frustrates me when people say that we're 2:12:46.880 --> 2:12:49.040 not what are we getting for our money? Because that's 2:12:49.200 --> 2:12:51.720 that's it, Like Russia is on the ropes. People just 2:12:51.720 --> 2:12:54.480 don't want to admit it. People see a slight incremental 2:12:54.520 --> 2:12:56.880 Russian gain or they feel like there's a standstill on 2:12:56.920 --> 2:12:59.400 the Ukrainian counter offensive and they think, oh, well, let's 2:12:59.400 --> 2:13:01.000 just throw in the It's. 2:13:00.880 --> 2:13:01.680 Like, no, can't. 2:13:01.720 --> 2:13:06.640 You can't stop the pressure now, and Pudin is finally 2:13:06.720 --> 2:13:08.960 kind of ready to come to the negotiating table, it seems, 2:13:09.560 --> 2:13:12.360 and the Ukrainians, you know, need our help more than ever. 2:13:13.160 --> 2:13:15.520 And that's kind of the frustrating ourspact. I went on 2:13:15.800 --> 2:13:17.480 I went on the Hill TV the other day to 2:13:17.520 --> 2:13:21.000 talk with someone who said, basically, she said, is there 2:13:21.040 --> 2:13:23.880 any hope for Ukraine? Like very already fatalistic about the 2:13:23.880 --> 2:13:26.080 whole thing, like are they already on the ropes? And 2:13:26.120 --> 2:13:29.000 I was like, no, they're not on the ropes. And 2:13:29.000 --> 2:13:31.240 this is a narrative that we need to change. We 2:13:31.320 --> 2:13:33.200 need to understand that there's a very there's a huge 2:13:33.200 --> 2:13:36.520 difference between what military aid gets us in Ukraine versus 2:13:36.560 --> 2:13:38.400 what it gets us in Israel and Afghanistan. 2:13:39.360 --> 2:13:42.440 And there's it's also like a significant change in like 2:13:42.480 --> 2:13:45.600 who is being killed by those weapons, right because even 2:13:45.640 --> 2:13:48.440 when we talk about the use of like the US 2:13:48.720 --> 2:13:52.280 use of weapons in foreign countries, we are often talking 2:13:52.320 --> 2:13:56.400 about these kind of these brush fire conflicts, these insurgencies 2:13:56.480 --> 2:13:58.600 in which a great deal of the fighting takes place 2:13:58.680 --> 2:14:01.560 in and around civilian populus. Is And obviously there are 2:14:01.760 --> 2:14:04.320 Ukrainian cities that have been under siege for quite a while. 2:14:04.720 --> 2:14:08.360 But when we're talking about like the Ukrainians firing or 2:14:08.440 --> 2:14:11.160 giving them him Our systems or giving them Bradley's, we 2:14:11.200 --> 2:14:13.960 are talking about weaponry that is being used to break 2:14:14.120 --> 2:14:18.600 fortifications on along a line of contact, which isn't as 2:14:18.640 --> 2:14:21.960 zero never is a zero civilian casualty endeavor, because those 2:14:21.960 --> 2:14:26.600 don't exist in war, but is a significantly less involves 2:14:26.600 --> 2:14:29.960 significantly fewer civilian losses than the kind of wars that 2:14:30.000 --> 2:14:31.760 we have fought for most of the time that I've 2:14:31.800 --> 2:14:34.800 been alive, right, because we're simply not using the weapons 2:14:34.840 --> 2:14:37.240 are not being used in the same way. Bombarding a 2:14:37.280 --> 2:14:39.960 trench line is not the same as firing a cruise 2:14:39.960 --> 2:14:43.360 missile at what you're pretty sure is a terrorist hideout 2:14:43.360 --> 2:14:44.320 in a city, you know. 2:14:45.520 --> 2:14:47.800 Right, And we have been reluctant to give them any 2:14:47.800 --> 2:14:50.360 weapons that could do that. I mean, some notable exceptions 2:14:50.400 --> 2:14:52.880 would be like the strike on the naval command center 2:14:52.880 --> 2:14:56.240 in Sevestopol. Yes, some other drone limited but but ansoly. 2:14:56.360 --> 2:14:58.760 Most of those are drone strikes from drone factories where 2:14:58.760 --> 2:15:01.160 the Ukrainians create their own stuff, And there have been 2:15:01.200 --> 2:15:04.880 some limited civilian casualties in their incursions into Russian territory 2:15:04.880 --> 2:15:06.840 because we won't we won't give them any weapons that 2:15:06.920 --> 2:15:08.560 go into Russian territory. 2:15:08.920 --> 2:15:15.000 Yeah, they give anything they want, yeah, well shit, anything 2:15:15.000 --> 2:15:15.720 else to. 2:15:15.800 --> 2:15:17.720 Get everything they want. 2:15:19.000 --> 2:15:21.600 I mean, we can't say that's not the case for 2:15:22.360 --> 2:15:25.400 whoever comes up next, because a number of our advertisements 2:15:25.440 --> 2:15:42.160 are random, but hopefully not and we're back, all right. 2:15:42.720 --> 2:15:44.240 One of the things you have to keep in mind 2:15:44.560 --> 2:15:48.360 when you think about like is what what is the 2:15:48.480 --> 2:15:51.000 US capable of doing that is positive and what is 2:15:51.040 --> 2:15:53.040 the US capable of doing that's negative? Is that the 2:15:53.120 --> 2:15:56.480 United States is fucking massive, right, Our budget is fucking massive. 2:15:57.040 --> 2:16:00.200 And we talk on this show, on my other show 2:16:00.240 --> 2:16:02.400 about a lot of horrible things our government has been 2:16:02.480 --> 2:16:06.840 involved in, which doesn't which does not detract from the 2:16:06.880 --> 2:16:10.160 fact that US aid, and particularly food aid, is like 2:16:10.320 --> 2:16:13.240 a survival matter for tens of millions of people around 2:16:13.240 --> 2:16:15.240 the globe. Right Like this is one of those things 2:16:15.280 --> 2:16:17.640 when the Republicans are talking about wanting to like cut 2:16:17.680 --> 2:16:20.720 all foreign aid that the US gives to basically everyone 2:16:20.760 --> 2:16:23.680 but Israel. What that means when you talk about that, 2:16:23.760 --> 2:16:28.000 you are talking about like starving populations of people larger 2:16:28.040 --> 2:16:31.600 than most major American cities. Because the US is massive, 2:16:31.720 --> 2:16:35.200 and the aid that we give is you know, usually 2:16:35.240 --> 2:16:38.199 not it's not really that significant a chunk of our budget, 2:16:38.520 --> 2:16:40.560 but for the countries, for a lot of countries that 2:16:40.640 --> 2:16:43.280 receive it, it's like critical to survival food aid and 2:16:43.320 --> 2:16:46.120 medical aid that we've given over the years. And I 2:16:46.160 --> 2:16:49.240 think that also gets into like one of the things 2:16:49.280 --> 2:16:54.280 that's important about understanding like how what impact you might 2:16:54.400 --> 2:16:57.959 have on what's going on in Ukraine. You don't have 2:16:58.080 --> 2:17:01.320 to if you if you have too much of a 2:17:01.400 --> 2:17:03.560 bad taste in your mouth, or the idea of supporting 2:17:03.680 --> 2:17:06.720 US military aid to anywhere. There's a lot of aid 2:17:06.760 --> 2:17:10.680 that's not military that's necessary right as you do, Charles. 2:17:10.720 --> 2:17:14.680 People need medicine right like you are having a positive 2:17:15.040 --> 2:17:17.560 outcome on like the people in Ukraine, if you are 2:17:17.600 --> 2:17:20.879 helping to increase their access to food and medicine, and 2:17:20.920 --> 2:17:24.199 that's not morally complicated. It's always there's always some moral 2:17:24.240 --> 2:17:27.480 complexity in handing out weapons around the world. Handing out 2:17:27.560 --> 2:17:31.119 medication is incredibly simple from an ethical standpoint, at least 2:17:31.160 --> 2:17:33.720 from where you're never a bad guy for giving medicine. 2:17:33.800 --> 2:17:35.680 It doesn't even matter who it's too, like. 2:17:37.400 --> 2:17:39.480 Well, your bad gut Israel apparently. 2:17:40.440 --> 2:17:44.240 Yes, yes they will drone strike you, but I don't know. 2:17:44.280 --> 2:17:47.039 I think that like one of the nice things as 2:17:47.040 --> 2:17:51.640 an American you don't have to. Realistically, the fight over 2:17:51.760 --> 2:17:55.520 Ukrainian aid right now is primarily something that is happening 2:17:55.560 --> 2:17:58.680 in Congress, and at this exact moment in that fight, 2:17:59.040 --> 2:18:02.200 there is very little URI can do. But there is 2:18:02.240 --> 2:18:05.120 a lot, as you prove, Charles, there is a lot 2:18:05.160 --> 2:18:08.520 that individual people can do to help other individual people. 2:18:09.160 --> 2:18:12.520 You may not have access to a Himer system or 2:18:12.560 --> 2:18:15.160 any more Bradley tanks to give the Ukrainians, although if 2:18:15.200 --> 2:18:18.160 you do, please please give them over they'll appreciate them. 2:18:18.520 --> 2:18:20.240 But there are a number of ways in which you 2:18:20.280 --> 2:18:22.880 can help, like the actual people suffering on the ground. 2:18:22.879 --> 2:18:25.840 And I think that that's like, that is right now 2:18:25.879 --> 2:18:28.600 what regular people can actually do. 2:18:29.560 --> 2:18:32.640 Yeah, I totally agree. I would push back a little 2:18:32.640 --> 2:18:34.320 bit and saying that there's not a lot that we 2:18:34.360 --> 2:18:36.840 can do in terms of the congressional fund because I 2:18:36.879 --> 2:18:41.120 think that people do. I mean, I remember, from back 2:18:41.160 --> 2:18:44.920 in my time working adjacent to politics, I remember someone 2:18:44.959 --> 2:18:46.880 told me a statistic where it said it took five 2:18:47.000 --> 2:18:49.480 phone calls to an office of a congressman for them 2:18:49.520 --> 2:18:52.880 to rethink their stance on an issue. 2:18:53.080 --> 2:18:53.600 I'm interesting. 2:18:53.640 --> 2:18:54.679 I have received. 2:18:54.400 --> 2:18:59.840 Texts from AIDS to congressmen Republican and Democrat who sit 2:19:00.120 --> 2:19:03.320 on like House Armed Services Committee or you know, Defense 2:19:03.360 --> 2:19:06.360 and that sort of stuff, saying like, hey, what's with 2:19:06.440 --> 2:19:09.640 this Ukraine? Like what's your take on the Ukraine stuff? 2:19:09.640 --> 2:19:11.440 Should we be giving them all this money? I don't 2:19:11.440 --> 2:19:13.240 really support it, but you went over there? Do you 2:19:13.280 --> 2:19:14.080 think they're using it? 2:19:14.080 --> 2:19:14.320 Well? 2:19:15.080 --> 2:19:17.119 And I'm like, holy, holy crap, am I actually getting 2:19:17.120 --> 2:19:20.320 this text? But yes, absolutely, Like yeah, you need you 2:19:20.400 --> 2:19:22.360 need to do that, you need to green light whatever, 2:19:22.400 --> 2:19:24.080 you need a green light to send that over there. 2:19:24.120 --> 2:19:28.279 And I think if more people, you know, we're especially 2:19:28.320 --> 2:19:30.680 now when a lot of congress people don't want to 2:19:30.920 --> 2:19:33.440 engage with the gaza issue but are looking for like 2:19:33.480 --> 2:19:36.760 good wins with their constituencies, like get to know your 2:19:36.760 --> 2:19:40.760 local Ukrainian constituency in your area, start a campaign to 2:19:40.800 --> 2:19:44.000 go to the regional office of your congressmen, find out 2:19:44.160 --> 2:19:47.840 which committees they sit on, and and pressure them for 2:19:48.800 --> 2:19:50.879 sending aid to Ukraine. I mean, that is something you 2:19:50.920 --> 2:19:54.720 can do. But on the individual level, yeah, you you 2:19:54.840 --> 2:19:58.600 can still raise awareness. You can you can connect the 2:19:58.640 --> 2:20:02.240 decolonial struggle of you Ukrainians to that of Palestinians and 2:20:02.280 --> 2:20:07.440 other peoples. Someone who does this extraordinarily well is Yulia Timoshenka. 2:20:07.959 --> 2:20:12.039 Not the Ukrainian politician. She's a young Ukrainian influencer and 2:20:12.080 --> 2:20:15.600 advocate who went to Nyu Abu Dhabi and sort of 2:20:15.640 --> 2:20:18.640 got kind of got pilled on the whole Palestine thing 2:20:18.920 --> 2:20:24.280 and has really eloquently tied the Palestinian and Ukrainian struggles together. 2:20:25.680 --> 2:20:28.959 So you can point people towards resources like that and 2:20:29.040 --> 2:20:30.440 let them know that there are at least some people 2:20:30.520 --> 2:20:35.080 in Ukraine who see that, who see that connection, and 2:20:35.120 --> 2:20:38.480 then you can also, of course, you can support humanitarian 2:20:38.520 --> 2:20:42.160 initiatives in Ukraine very carefully. Please just do so very carefully. 2:20:43.240 --> 2:20:45.959 I would say there's a lot of there's a lot 2:20:45.959 --> 2:20:49.400 of people who went over there and started initiatives that 2:20:49.480 --> 2:20:51.720 were more or less good, but mostly kind of ineffective 2:20:51.800 --> 2:20:55.520 because they did not actually engage and include Ukrainians in 2:20:55.560 --> 2:21:00.200 that process. My role with everything involving Ukraine is just 2:20:59.879 --> 2:21:03.240 like just to ask Ukrainians about it, Ask Ukrainians what 2:21:03.280 --> 2:21:05.680 they need, figure out what it is that their priorities are, 2:21:05.720 --> 2:21:08.160 and make sure that you're including them on your philanthropy 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:13.039 and your charity. They will understand what is most impactful. Yeah, 2:21:13.080 --> 2:21:16.560 my organization has experienced a lot of success by being 2:21:17.879 --> 2:21:21.720 entirely run by Ukrainians and being based in Arkiv. And 2:21:22.200 --> 2:21:26.280 as everyone else is funding and resources have dried up, 2:21:26.400 --> 2:21:30.560 Mission Harkiv is being handed projects from larger NGOs who 2:21:30.640 --> 2:21:34.640 are leaving the region. Because we focus on a local response, 2:21:35.440 --> 2:21:38.440 it also means that you know, donations to organizations like 2:21:38.480 --> 2:21:43.240 that go farther because they're going to higher Ukrainians rather 2:21:43.280 --> 2:21:47.240 than paying for the flights of some westerner to go 2:21:47.320 --> 2:21:50.879 back and forth, you know, and do a fundraising, you know, 2:21:51.000 --> 2:21:52.959 coming in from New York and do a fundraising pitch 2:21:53.000 --> 2:21:56.720 and go back. It's actually going towards This was a 2:21:56.760 --> 2:22:00.120 commitment I made to myself and my partner and I 2:22:00.160 --> 2:22:03.360 went over there. My partner at Mission Harkive was that 2:22:03.640 --> 2:22:05.960 I was never going to expense like a flight or 2:22:06.000 --> 2:22:08.680 a meal or anything to Mission Harkive. So you know, 2:22:08.720 --> 2:22:10.560 all that's come out of my own pocket. And that 2:22:10.600 --> 2:22:12.560 means that every donation that we have gets to go 2:22:12.760 --> 2:22:16.120 pretty much directly into our programs. So you can still 2:22:16.160 --> 2:22:19.120 do that as an individual, you can help in that way. 2:22:19.240 --> 2:22:21.880 And the awareness thing is a huge part people are 2:22:21.879 --> 2:22:25.760 forgetting Ukrainians feel abandoned, like making even just the act 2:22:26.120 --> 2:22:29.280 of putting a Ukrainian flag on your notes or like 2:22:29.320 --> 2:22:32.199 tweeting about Ukraine occasionally is seen as such a huge 2:22:32.200 --> 2:22:34.440 act of solidarity at this stage in the game that 2:22:34.440 --> 2:22:35.959 the Ukrainians will love you for it. 2:22:37.320 --> 2:22:40.360 I really love that you bring up the kind of 2:22:40.879 --> 2:22:44.000 pitfalls of and this is not this is Ukraine right now, 2:22:44.000 --> 2:22:47.160 in particular because it was such a huge international story 2:22:47.640 --> 2:22:51.199 at the start of the expanded invasion and that always 2:22:51.560 --> 2:22:54.800 brings out not just grifters but also well meaning people 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:58.440 who are going to raise money and try to start 2:22:58.480 --> 2:23:00.880 initiatives in that country, it may not be doing it 2:23:00.920 --> 2:23:03.800 in the most cost effective way possible. And I really 2:23:03.879 --> 2:23:07.359 like what you said about like the importance of verifying 2:23:07.400 --> 2:23:11.160 that where you are supporting is not just doing the work, 2:23:11.200 --> 2:23:13.320 but is like doing the work in the best way possible. 2:23:13.360 --> 2:23:15.600 And one of the really important things to look at 2:23:15.640 --> 2:23:17.480 for is like, well, how much money are they spending 2:23:17.520 --> 2:23:19.640 on sending Westerners to and from this place? 2:23:19.760 --> 2:23:19.960 Right? 2:23:20.120 --> 2:23:23.160 It's one thing if like it's an area that lacks 2:23:23.160 --> 2:23:26.279 access to medical professionals and they're flying out medical professionals 2:23:26.320 --> 2:23:28.560 to do like trauma work or whatever, like there's really 2:23:28.959 --> 2:23:32.080 like that's obviously important, but this is something that like 2:23:32.160 --> 2:23:35.520 a lot of my friends in Iraq and Syria also experienced, 2:23:35.600 --> 2:23:38.720 like the frustration of like in GEO workers staying in 2:23:38.800 --> 2:23:42.039 nice hotels and driving you know, fancy vehicles, where there 2:23:42.040 --> 2:23:45.959 were local organizations doing things like maintaining refugee camps that 2:23:46.040 --> 2:23:49.320 needed the support. I think that's always really important to 2:23:49.959 --> 2:23:53.480 try to do your research so that the support you give, 2:23:53.560 --> 2:23:55.960 the awareness you raise, and the money that you donate 2:23:56.040 --> 2:23:57.400 actually goes where it needs to get. 2:23:58.080 --> 2:24:00.600 I think I mean that opens a whole broad category 2:24:00.600 --> 2:24:03.160 of maybe this is a subset essay waiting to happen. 2:24:03.200 --> 2:24:05.080 But I've been playing with this idea of like the 2:24:05.120 --> 2:24:10.240 idea of conflict vultures, these people who sort of descend 2:24:10.920 --> 2:24:16.400 on a conflict or a disaster zone for a variety 2:24:16.440 --> 2:24:19.200 of reasons. You know, maybe it's fundraising. Maybe they work 2:24:19.240 --> 2:24:20.800 for a big NGO and this helps get them in 2:24:20.800 --> 2:24:22.760 the news, so they fly themselves out there. Maybe it's 2:24:22.800 --> 2:24:25.360 a war and they want to be a hero where 2:24:25.400 --> 2:24:27.160 they want to present themselves as a hero, and they 2:24:27.200 --> 2:24:29.040 end up raising a bunch of money for their equipment 2:24:29.080 --> 2:24:31.760 and stuff, and then stay far away from the fighting line, 2:24:31.800 --> 2:24:34.520 living in nice hotels like you said. Or maybe it 2:24:34.600 --> 2:24:36.959 is like you said, well, meeting people who just take 2:24:37.040 --> 2:24:40.080 up air from the people who need it and take 2:24:40.600 --> 2:24:43.480 They're like sponges that just absorb all this Western energy 2:24:43.480 --> 2:24:47.640 because they're they're a relatable face. And I've encountered all 2:24:47.720 --> 2:24:50.800 of those people in Ukraine. The reason I went to 2:24:50.920 --> 2:24:53.160 Ukraine is because I was like, if I'm going to 2:24:53.240 --> 2:24:56.720 fundraise for this initiative, people are going to give more. 2:24:56.760 --> 2:24:59.360 They're gonna be more invested if they see an English 2:24:59.440 --> 2:25:03.480 speaking American talking to them about this stuff. But I 2:25:03.560 --> 2:25:06.520 came in with the perspective that I can't be centering 2:25:06.560 --> 2:25:10.200 myself on this. The idea is to deflect onto what 2:25:10.240 --> 2:25:13.320 the Ukrainians are doing and elevate their stories rather than 2:25:13.360 --> 2:25:17.600 saying I'm here, I'm posing with the bach mout entrance sign. 2:25:18.160 --> 2:25:23.280 I just delivered seven muffins and a generator to like 2:25:23.760 --> 2:25:26.560 a place that was cleared out by the Ukrainians, you know, 2:25:26.680 --> 2:25:31.080 six months previously. It's more like, Okay, how how do 2:25:31.120 --> 2:25:34.760 you take Americans are very generous people. How do you 2:25:34.800 --> 2:25:38.879 take American philanthropy, American dollars, American wallets and directed towards 2:25:38.879 --> 2:25:41.119 the people who are actually going to change, who usually 2:25:41.800 --> 2:25:46.400 are not Americans. These large NGOs they serve a purpose. 2:25:46.560 --> 2:25:51.279 The UN serves a purpose. Doctors without borders, direct relief, 2:25:51.600 --> 2:25:53.440 you know, World Central Kitchen, they do it. They do 2:25:53.480 --> 2:25:57.080 a great job in like a specific thing. But a 2:25:57.120 --> 2:25:59.920 lot of times, if you're giving to the United Nations 2:26:00.080 --> 2:26:02.160 or you're giving to one of these big NGOs, that 2:26:02.240 --> 2:26:05.360 sets a fundraiser in the immediate aftermath of something, your 2:26:05.400 --> 2:26:08.200 money is going to remodel an office in Rome or 2:26:08.280 --> 2:26:13.000 New York, or Washington, DC, and you're not really reaching 2:26:13.160 --> 2:26:15.280 the people that you're trying to help. And I think 2:26:15.360 --> 2:26:18.480 if more Americans understood that, they'd be more responsible with 2:26:18.520 --> 2:26:21.440 sort of how they spend their money in a philanthropic sense. 2:26:22.000 --> 2:26:25.400 Yeah, Charles, you have been awesome. Thank you so much 2:26:25.400 --> 2:26:29.520 for coming on and telling us your experience. And yeah, 2:26:29.760 --> 2:26:31.560 where can people find you on the internet if you 2:26:31.600 --> 2:26:32.600 want to be found? 2:26:34.640 --> 2:26:36.600 Some I go back and forth. Sometimes I don't want 2:26:36.600 --> 2:26:38.959 to be found and sometimes I do. But you can 2:26:38.959 --> 2:26:43.360 find me pretty much everywhere with at Charles McBride. That's 2:26:43.480 --> 2:26:46.600 McBride with a why, except on Twitter at random. I 2:26:46.600 --> 2:26:50.279 don't have that handle. And then I just launched a substack, 2:26:50.480 --> 2:26:54.280 which is I guess Charles McBride dot substack dot com, 2:26:54.760 --> 2:26:57.400 and that's where we'll be. I'm kind of shifting towards 2:26:57.480 --> 2:27:01.080 more long form content to write about my experiences with 2:27:01.120 --> 2:27:06.280 these things and sort of a more digestible long form 2:27:06.360 --> 2:27:11.200 wave people engaging with important issues like this Awesoh and 2:27:11.400 --> 2:27:14.000 if you're interested in the organization I help set up 2:27:14.000 --> 2:27:18.400 in Ukraine, it is mission dot harkive on Instagram or 2:27:18.520 --> 2:27:21.000 missionharkive dot com and. 2:27:21.080 --> 2:27:23.360 I can put all the info in the description for yes, 2:27:23.560 --> 2:27:26.119 listeners and everything, but yeah. 2:27:25.959 --> 2:27:30.320 Sweet excellent Charles. Yeah, thank you, Charles, Thank you, guys. 2:27:30.440 --> 2:27:31.240 I appreciate it. 2:27:45.160 --> 2:27:47.360 Hey everybody, and welcome back to you. It could happen 2:27:47.400 --> 2:27:50.080 here show about the ways things are falling apart. Well, 2:27:50.160 --> 2:27:52.959 welcome back to you the listener. Welcome to me, your 2:27:52.959 --> 2:27:55.520 guest host. I'm Molly Conger, filling in for James for 2:27:55.520 --> 2:27:58.119 a few weeks. If you're happy to be hearing my voice, 2:27:58.120 --> 2:28:00.600 feel free to share that feedback anywhere you post online. 2:28:00.680 --> 2:28:02.920 If you're upset about the state of affairs, I suggest 2:28:02.920 --> 2:28:06.320 writing your congressional representative or mailing a cryptic postcard to 2:28:06.320 --> 2:28:10.360 your local ATF Field office. As your guest host, I'll 2:28:10.360 --> 2:28:12.160 try to bring you the it could Happen here content 2:28:12.240 --> 2:28:14.440 you know and love, dispatches from the front lines of 2:28:14.440 --> 2:28:17.160 our dystopia updates on the people trying to unravel society 2:28:17.160 --> 2:28:19.080 as we know it, and what's being done to stop 2:28:19.120 --> 2:28:22.120 the rising tide that threatens to swallow us all. Today 2:28:22.120 --> 2:28:23.800 I'm joined by a Garrison, and I'm going to tell 2:28:23.840 --> 2:28:25.400 them a little bit about what's been going on with 2:28:25.520 --> 2:28:26.199 Patriot Front. 2:28:26.600 --> 2:28:31.160 Hello, Patriot Front, fantastic one of the gayer groups of 2:28:31.280 --> 2:28:33.760 Nazis operating in the United States. 2:28:34.640 --> 2:28:37.520 It's just guys being dudes, Garrison, You wouldn't understand. 2:28:37.760 --> 2:28:39.320 I certainly wouldn't know. 2:28:40.040 --> 2:28:42.879 You may remember Patriot Front from such iconic moments as 2:28:42.879 --> 2:28:44.960 getting arrested and mass at a gay Pride event in 2:28:45.040 --> 2:28:50.760 Idaho in twenty twenty two, having their internal calms leaked repeatedly, 2:28:50.400 --> 2:28:56.520 nearly constantly, constantly, including some videos of questionably sensual path downs, 2:28:58.120 --> 2:29:01.440 or accidentally giving several members mild carbon monoxide poisoning by 2:29:01.520 --> 2:29:02.960 forcing them to ride in the back of the U 2:29:02.959 --> 2:29:06.040 haul truck. You've probably seen their stickers on a trash 2:29:06.120 --> 2:29:08.280 can in your local downtown, or maybe you've driven by 2:29:08.320 --> 2:29:11.119 a racist banner drop. But when all is sudden done, 2:29:11.280 --> 2:29:14.080 hopefully you'll only remember them as having been sued into 2:29:14.120 --> 2:29:16.240 the center of the Earth, which is what I want 2:29:16.240 --> 2:29:17.119 to talk to you about today. 2:29:18.320 --> 2:29:22.280 Oh all right, that's I I'm unbelievably excited. 2:29:23.080 --> 2:29:25.439 We won't be getting into the sensual pat downs. Unfortunately, 2:29:25.480 --> 2:29:27.199 this is just court records. 2:29:27.320 --> 2:29:30.080 Okay, Well, I can always I can always find that 2:29:30.080 --> 2:29:30.680 on telegram. 2:29:30.680 --> 2:29:31.400 That's fine. 2:29:32.240 --> 2:29:34.520 But before we get into who is suing Patriot Front, 2:29:34.560 --> 2:29:36.680 let's get a quick refresher on who they are and 2:29:36.720 --> 2:29:39.160 how they came to be scurrying around and matching windbreakers 2:29:39.160 --> 2:29:41.680 promoting a white ethno state, because I think their origin 2:29:41.720 --> 2:29:44.480 story really informs the way they've backed themselves into this corner. 2:29:45.200 --> 2:29:47.879 Patriot Front came into existence in late twenty seventeen when 2:29:47.920 --> 2:29:51.000 it's splintered off the now defunct neo Nazi group Vanguard America. 2:29:51.560 --> 2:29:53.280 The split was months in the making, with a power 2:29:53.320 --> 2:29:56.400 struggle brewing between Vanguard America leader Dylan Hopper and a young, 2:29:56.480 --> 2:29:59.640 up and coming fascist named Thomas Russo, who was at 2:29:59.640 --> 2:30:02.440 that time barely out of high school. In the months 2:30:02.480 --> 2:30:04.280 leading up to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville 2:30:04.320 --> 2:30:06.720 in August twenty seventeen, Rousseau edged Hopper out of his 2:30:06.720 --> 2:30:10.680 own organization in what Hopper called a literal coup. By 2:30:10.680 --> 2:30:13.480 the time Vanguard America was marching in the streets of Charlottesville, 2:30:13.560 --> 2:30:16.480 Rousseau was not only in control of the group's internal communications, 2:30:16.959 --> 2:30:19.680 he was calling the shots on the ground. Hopper didn't 2:30:19.680 --> 2:30:22.760 even attend, and it was that event, the Unite the 2:30:22.800 --> 2:30:25.960 Right rally, that birthed Patriot Front. In those chaotic morning 2:30:25.959 --> 2:30:28.480 hours of August twelfth, twenty seventeen, a young man named 2:30:28.560 --> 2:30:32.440 James Alex Fields Junior joined the men under Russeau's command. 2:30:33.360 --> 2:30:35.360 He didn't ride with the core group from Texas in 2:30:35.400 --> 2:30:37.680 their rented van, which they called the hate Bus. 2:30:37.959 --> 2:30:41.200 Oh my wait, did they really call it the hate bus? 2:30:41.920 --> 2:30:45.520 Rousseau was back then he was sort of Asthmador's protege. 2:30:45.560 --> 2:30:48.199 I don't know that they'll claim that now, but back 2:30:48.240 --> 2:30:53.400 then at like this adult alcoholic nazi was mentoring this 2:30:53.520 --> 2:30:57.240 fascist team like he was. He had just GRADUATEDIZ. 2:30:56.959 --> 2:30:58.160 Many such cases. 2:30:58.680 --> 2:31:00.480 Yeah, so they came up in the hate bus space 2:31:00.480 --> 2:31:04.720 all right. Mcfields drove here alone. He drove overnight from Ohio, 2:31:05.080 --> 2:31:07.560 but he was wearing the group's uniform, a white polo 2:31:07.800 --> 2:31:11.480 khaki pants and carrying a shield bearing Vanguard's logo. He 2:31:11.600 --> 2:31:13.600 joined in with the members of Vanguard America as they 2:31:13.640 --> 2:31:17.480 loitered around a public park, chanting Nazi slogans. Field stood 2:31:17.480 --> 2:31:19.760 shoulder to shoulder and a line of Vanguard members guarding 2:31:19.760 --> 2:31:21.280 the entrance to the park where the rally was to 2:31:21.320 --> 2:31:25.600 be held, preventing counter protesters from entering. A Few hours later, 2:31:25.680 --> 2:31:27.680 after the rally had been called off by the State police, 2:31:27.680 --> 2:31:31.240 declaring an unlawful assembly, Fields drove his Dodge Challenger into 2:31:31.320 --> 2:31:34.440 a crowd of counter protesters, killing heather Higher and injuring 2:31:34.480 --> 2:31:38.400 dozens of others. In later litigation, Dylan Hopper, responding for 2:31:38.480 --> 2:31:42.320 Vanguard America, was asked about his immediate reaction to hearing 2:31:42.360 --> 2:31:46.320 about the attack that afternoon. In the group's discord, Hopper posted, 2:31:46.760 --> 2:31:50.520 Commi's died. That's good enough for me. This was, of course, 2:31:50.600 --> 2:31:53.000 before he'd seen the photos of the murderer mingling with 2:31:53.040 --> 2:31:55.840 his hate group. In a deposition three years later, he 2:31:55.840 --> 2:31:58.800 didn't disavow that initial reaction. He said heather Hire's death 2:31:58.840 --> 2:32:00.720 was a tragedy the same way it would be tragic 2:32:00.720 --> 2:32:03.760 if a surfer who knowingly entered shark infested waters was 2:32:03.840 --> 2:32:07.480 killed by a shark, saying it was that woman's choice 2:32:07.520 --> 2:32:10.200 to be there. But he maintained that Fields was never 2:32:10.240 --> 2:32:11.959 a member of the group, that anyone could have put 2:32:12.000 --> 2:32:13.760 on a white polo and stood near them in the park, 2:32:13.959 --> 2:32:17.680 that anyone could have handed Fields that shield. His testimony 2:32:17.760 --> 2:32:21.360 was that Vanguard America didn't actually have membership list, there 2:32:21.360 --> 2:32:24.280 was no official record who was a member, but he 2:32:24.320 --> 2:32:28.280 somehow also knew that Fields was not a member. In 2:32:28.320 --> 2:32:30.560 that twenty twenty deposition, he claimed that he spoke to 2:32:30.640 --> 2:32:33.199 Rousseau in the days after the rally, and Rousseau admitted 2:32:33.360 --> 2:32:35.000 that he had been the one to make the choice 2:32:35.040 --> 2:32:37.640 to allow Fields to march with them in an attempt 2:32:37.680 --> 2:32:39.760 to make the group appear larger than it really was, 2:32:40.480 --> 2:32:42.320 and Fields himself never claimed to be a member of 2:32:42.360 --> 2:32:45.160 the organization. In his federal sentencing memo, his defense attorney 2:32:45.240 --> 2:32:47.960 wrote that he'd never been a member of any organized group. 2:32:48.560 --> 2:32:50.760 But the damage to Vanguard America was done, and almost 2:32:50.840 --> 2:32:53.520 every photo of Fields taken that morning, just hours before 2:32:53.560 --> 2:32:55.360 he committed a hate crime murder that would send him 2:32:55.360 --> 2:32:57.800 to prison for the rest of his life, he certainly 2:32:57.800 --> 2:33:01.120 looks like he's with them. After the rally, as Rousseau 2:33:01.200 --> 2:33:03.080 was still trying to make his way home to Texas, 2:33:03.120 --> 2:33:06.000 he posted in the Vanguard Discord about the issue with 2:33:06.080 --> 2:33:08.440 the man who ran into protesters with his car. He 2:33:08.560 --> 2:33:11.400 was certainly not a member, and none of us know him. 2:33:11.760 --> 2:33:13.720 Our shields were given widely to anyone at the rally, 2:33:13.720 --> 2:33:16.240 and we had many extras. There's no criminal conspiracy, but 2:33:16.280 --> 2:33:19.760 handing a person a piece of wood and agreeing on fashion. Legally, 2:33:20.879 --> 2:33:23.160 we have been in contact with folks with legal experience 2:33:23.280 --> 2:33:26.400 and we're fine as far as PR. Yes, it's bad, 2:33:26.640 --> 2:33:29.200 But last week they called us evil, white supremacist Nazi killers, 2:33:29.200 --> 2:33:30.640 and today they're calling us the same thing. 2:33:31.320 --> 2:33:32.039 Shrug it off. 2:33:33.800 --> 2:33:36.480 When members complained that they shouldn't be disavowing the actions 2:33:36.520 --> 2:33:41.320 of the murderer, Rousseau clarified that quote. The statement never 2:33:41.400 --> 2:33:44.240 said that what he did was wrong, just clarified that 2:33:44.280 --> 2:33:48.520 he wasn't a member. People aren't buying it anyway, So 2:33:48.600 --> 2:33:51.280 neither Rousseau nor Hopper were willing to say what Fields 2:33:51.280 --> 2:33:54.320 did should not have happened. They didn't disavow the murder. 2:33:54.920 --> 2:33:58.520 Hopper's comments seemed genuinely supportive of the murder. They were 2:33:58.560 --> 2:34:00.680 willing to cheer on the bloodshed, but the way the 2:34:00.720 --> 2:34:02.680 blood looked on their own hands was going to be 2:34:02.720 --> 2:34:06.879 a pr problem. Now, for me, the whole Nazi thing 2:34:07.000 --> 2:34:09.520 is kind of a deal breaker from the start, branding wise, Like, 2:34:09.600 --> 2:34:12.000 just from the jump, there's a branding issue. There's an eagle, 2:34:12.040 --> 2:34:14.680 there's a fascies, there's the blood and soil thing. It's 2:34:14.680 --> 2:34:15.880 just it's not a good look. 2:34:16.840 --> 2:34:20.879 Could you briefly explain what a fascianes is. So it 2:34:21.000 --> 2:34:22.760 is a bundle of sticks, right. 2:34:22.640 --> 2:34:26.039 It's it's an old Roman symbol, right. 2:34:26.000 --> 2:34:28.000 Right, it comes from you know, the Roman Empire. So 2:34:28.000 --> 2:34:31.680 it's this very you know, return to tradition. Mussolini brought 2:34:31.680 --> 2:34:32.119 it back. 2:34:32.480 --> 2:34:36.080 Yeah, and like you can break one stick pretty easily, 2:34:36.680 --> 2:34:39.879 but if they're all bundled together, then it's then then 2:34:39.879 --> 2:34:41.599 it's then it's harder to break. 2:34:41.480 --> 2:34:44.840 Apes together strong. Yeah, sorry, just so that the prevy 2:34:44.879 --> 2:34:49.400 for the new planet of the Apes. But that's not 2:34:49.600 --> 2:34:52.000 the issue for them in this twenty seventeen rebrand, Right, 2:34:52.080 --> 2:34:55.320 it's the Nazi thing, not the deal breaker. But it's 2:34:55.360 --> 2:34:57.600 hard to shake the association with a hate crime. Murder 2:34:58.680 --> 2:35:01.520 was a member, But the pictures of the murderer holding 2:35:01.520 --> 2:35:04.039 your logo and standing right next to you are going 2:35:04.120 --> 2:35:07.360 to follow you. So just three weeks after the rally, 2:35:07.560 --> 2:35:10.000 Thomas Rousseau announced in the Vanguard America Discord that he 2:35:10.040 --> 2:35:13.640 was launching a full rebrand, calling the new group Patriots Front. 2:35:14.160 --> 2:35:16.920 That s gets dropped later, but Patriots. 2:35:16.360 --> 2:35:21.600 Front, Yeah, that is a way worse name. Yeah, Patriots Front. 2:35:21.640 --> 2:35:23.480 To say that is that it's really hard to say. 2:35:23.560 --> 2:35:26.240 They've not possessive either. There's no apostrophe. It's just like 2:35:26.480 --> 2:35:29.800 Patriots Front. Oh yeah, that's weird. They made a good call, 2:35:29.879 --> 2:35:30.360 dropped in that. 2:35:30.440 --> 2:35:33.000 S so they really fine tuned it there in the end. 2:35:33.120 --> 2:35:35.360 That was the only the only good thing they've done 2:35:35.520 --> 2:35:37.359 besides just keep getting arrested. 2:35:37.440 --> 2:35:40.760 But yeah, so the message wasn't changing, The ideology is 2:35:40.760 --> 2:35:43.680 not changing. The manifesto got a little fresh polish, but 2:35:43.720 --> 2:35:47.160 the real change was optics. Rousseau recognized the need for 2:35:47.240 --> 2:35:50.440 broader appeal, for new recruits and for plausible deniability on 2:35:50.480 --> 2:35:52.840 the group's surface. You can get away with saying a 2:35:52.879 --> 2:35:55.240 lot more Nazi shit if you put an American flag 2:35:55.280 --> 2:35:57.680 on the hats and a founding father on the homepage 2:35:57.720 --> 2:35:59.400 than you can if you're sporting a son and rat 2:35:59.440 --> 2:36:00.680 and posting Hitler memes. 2:36:01.000 --> 2:36:04.879 Yeah, all of their their kind of outwards visual style 2:36:05.520 --> 2:36:07.120 is all very like American. 2:36:07.200 --> 2:36:09.240 It is it is, it is. It is American. 2:36:09.480 --> 2:36:12.280 There's a bit of like a military kind of kind 2:36:12.320 --> 2:36:16.959 of a cleanness to it, but it's very much like 2:36:17.560 --> 2:36:19.240 they're going full Americana. 2:36:19.520 --> 2:36:22.600 Oh yeah, it's it's it's Americana. It's like Patriot Kitch, right, 2:36:22.600 --> 2:36:24.320 Like it's a few ten signs away from being a 2:36:24.320 --> 2:36:24.959 fud rockers. 2:36:25.240 --> 2:36:27.600 Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's it's it's very much not 2:36:27.720 --> 2:36:32.760 like German Nazi. It's like, right, it's like USA with 2:36:32.800 --> 2:36:36.039 some like US army signifiers that kind of stuff. 2:36:36.920 --> 2:36:39.600 But the you know, the sentiment behind it is the same. 2:36:39.680 --> 2:36:41.840 You can take away the black eagle and the fascie 2:36:41.879 --> 2:36:43.080 like actually they kept the fascies. 2:36:43.120 --> 2:36:46.840 It's just red, white and blue. Now us say all 2:36:46.879 --> 2:36:50.959 the way, baby, I mean to be fair, money to 2:36:51.000 --> 2:36:51.320 be fair. 2:36:51.400 --> 2:36:55.840 The United States of America also uses a fascie. 2:36:55.320 --> 2:36:58.199 Right, I'm not like, you know, crying for the sullying 2:36:58.280 --> 2:37:01.280 of the of the branding of the Night in America. 2:37:01.320 --> 2:37:03.920 But it's clear what the intention was here. Yes, it's 2:37:03.959 --> 2:37:07.000 to sort of hide behind that Americana. But in the 2:37:07.000 --> 2:37:09.240 six and a half years since that rebrand, Thomas Rousseau 2:37:09.280 --> 2:37:13.160 has maintained tight personal control over the entire group, now 2:37:13.160 --> 2:37:16.440 called Patriot Front. You can almost read that as a 2:37:16.440 --> 2:37:19.640 reaction to his first major setback as a white supremacist organizer. 2:37:19.680 --> 2:37:21.840 You know, he'd led some smaller rallies in Texas before 2:37:21.920 --> 2:37:24.240 Unite the Right, but that was his first big day 2:37:24.240 --> 2:37:28.600 out commanding the Nazi group. Right, And as a result 2:37:28.640 --> 2:37:31.000 of that day, the entire group was tarnished by the 2:37:31.040 --> 2:37:34.400 association of you know, in their telling, some random guy 2:37:34.520 --> 2:37:36.240 who was just near them, We. 2:37:36.280 --> 2:37:38.520 Just happened to hang out with people who like doing murders, 2:37:38.560 --> 2:37:38.840 you know. 2:37:39.800 --> 2:37:41.720 Right, you know, like it goes like what Hopper was 2:37:41.760 --> 2:37:43.480 saying in his deposition, right, like, well, she was in 2:37:43.520 --> 2:37:46.840 shark infested waters. Like, by your own admission, you are 2:37:46.879 --> 2:37:49.600 the sharks. Yeah, you're saying you are a flesh eating shark. 2:37:51.120 --> 2:37:53.720 But that's not possible anymore now, right, So you can't 2:37:53.760 --> 2:37:56.600 just be some guy who's marching with Patriot Front because 2:37:56.600 --> 2:37:59.080 their events are never announced ahead of time. You have 2:37:59.160 --> 2:38:01.600 to get the official group merch from the group, after 2:38:01.600 --> 2:38:03.960 being interviewed and vetted. You can't just show up and 2:38:04.000 --> 2:38:07.040 march with them unless you're a member, because only members 2:38:07.080 --> 2:38:08.920 know when the events are going to be. Yeah, there's 2:38:08.959 --> 2:38:11.680 no chance that some unvetted hangar on is going to 2:38:11.680 --> 2:38:15.320 be standing near them. And that does solve the problem 2:38:15.400 --> 2:38:17.520 posed by someone like James Fields, but it creates a 2:38:17.560 --> 2:38:24.039 new problem, real legal liability, by establishing so clearly and 2:38:24.120 --> 2:38:27.959 so firmly that anybody who's marching with you wearing your 2:38:28.000 --> 2:38:30.959 hat and your jacket, following your orders through the megaphone. 2:38:31.040 --> 2:38:33.840 You have established that all of those people answer to you, 2:38:33.920 --> 2:38:36.000 and you know them, and you approve that they were there. 2:38:37.080 --> 2:38:38.080 Now you're responsible. 2:38:38.200 --> 2:38:40.600 Yeah, you make the classical mistake of having an actual 2:38:40.680 --> 2:38:42.840 official members list. 2:38:43.240 --> 2:38:46.520 Right, so now you no longer have the option of saying, well, 2:38:46.520 --> 2:38:49.280 that guy wasn't with us, We don't know him. And 2:38:49.320 --> 2:38:52.000 that's where the lawsuits enter the picture. So right now 2:38:52.040 --> 2:38:54.879 there are three active federal lawsuits against Patriot Front, one 2:38:54.879 --> 2:38:57.600 in Virginia, one in Massachusetts, and one in North Dakota. 2:38:58.200 --> 2:39:00.560 And the underlying actions and some of the claims vary, 2:39:00.640 --> 2:39:03.720 but all three lawsuits are making the same central claim, 2:39:04.000 --> 2:39:07.720 a Section nineteen eighty five complaint alleging a conspiracy by 2:39:07.720 --> 2:39:10.120 Patriot Front and its members to deprive the plaintiffs of 2:39:10.160 --> 2:39:13.400 their civil rights. And I think it's really interesting. This 2:39:13.440 --> 2:39:15.280 is dry as hell. Maybe that's only interesting to me 2:39:15.440 --> 2:39:17.680 that I think it's really interesting to look at the 2:39:17.680 --> 2:39:21.640 original context of that statute, right that code section It 2:39:21.680 --> 2:39:24.360 comes out of the Enforcement Act of eighteen seventy one. 2:39:25.000 --> 2:39:28.160 Are you familiar with the Enforcement Acts? Going going into 2:39:28.200 --> 2:39:31.000 deep civil war lore, you know, going back to reconstruction, 2:39:31.680 --> 2:39:32.480 I'm Canadian. 2:39:33.000 --> 2:39:33.640 I don't. 2:39:35.240 --> 2:39:37.840 The American legal system is but something I've been learning 2:39:38.120 --> 2:39:41.560 the past ten years. It is by no means the 2:39:41.600 --> 2:39:43.920 specialty of my research or knowledge. 2:39:44.160 --> 2:39:46.119 Yeah, I'm not like a big Civil War guy. 2:39:46.160 --> 2:39:46.280 You know. 2:39:46.320 --> 2:39:49.440 I have, accidentally and against my will, learned a lot 2:39:49.480 --> 2:39:51.520 about the Civil War because we've been arguing about these 2:39:51.520 --> 2:39:54.720 statues for a few years. Sure, but reconstruction I think 2:39:54.800 --> 2:39:55.840 is really overlooked. 2:39:55.840 --> 2:39:55.920 You. 2:39:55.959 --> 2:39:57.760 In my own education in public school, there was like 2:39:57.800 --> 2:39:59.840 two paragraphs about reconstruction and then we just sort of 2:39:59.840 --> 2:40:00.520 like moved on. 2:40:01.040 --> 2:40:03.840 I had like a semester on it. It is certainly 2:40:03.879 --> 2:40:07.160 one of the more tragic periods of American history, how 2:40:07.200 --> 2:40:09.920 we seem to almost have figured something out and then 2:40:09.959 --> 2:40:11.439 it all went down the drain pretty. 2:40:11.200 --> 2:40:14.440 Quick, like we really whiffed it. But the Enforcement Act 2:40:14.440 --> 2:40:16.920 of eighteen seventy one is also called the ku Klux 2:40:17.000 --> 2:40:17.760 Klan Act. 2:40:18.640 --> 2:40:21.760 Oh oh oh, yeah, these guys, we're a getting somewhere. 2:40:22.360 --> 2:40:25.080 So when President Grant signed the KKK Act into law 2:40:25.080 --> 2:40:28.600 in eighteen seventy one, support for reconstruction was starting to falter, 2:40:29.160 --> 2:40:31.440 and there was genuine fear that the eighteen seventy two 2:40:31.480 --> 2:40:33.840 presidential election would bring on a new wave of clan 2:40:33.959 --> 2:40:36.840 violence in the South. And that's starting to sound a 2:40:36.879 --> 2:40:39.160 little familiar, isn't it. You know, people are getting tired, 2:40:39.400 --> 2:40:41.520 People are getting tired of being asked to address deep 2:40:41.560 --> 2:40:45.039 rooted systemic inequalities. There's an upcoming and uncertain presidential election. 2:40:45.600 --> 2:40:48.440 There's growing fear of vigilanti violence by roving bands of 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:50.879 masked racists. You know, like everything old is new again. 2:40:51.080 --> 2:40:55.360 That sounds like kind of like right now, Yeah, that's wild. 2:40:56.280 --> 2:40:57.959 So you know, there have been other enforcement acts. This 2:40:58.040 --> 2:41:00.440 wasn't the first one, but the ku Klux Plan Act 2:41:00.480 --> 2:41:05.840 was specifically tailored to address the question of freelance violence. Right, So, normally, 2:41:05.879 --> 2:41:08.400 if you are suing over a civil rights violation, there 2:41:08.400 --> 2:41:10.400 are only remedies available to you when your rights have 2:41:10.440 --> 2:41:13.360 been violated by a state actor, a cop, a government body, 2:41:13.440 --> 2:41:17.360 the law itself. The irsu can can really only seek 2:41:17.440 --> 2:41:19.840 legal remedy when your rights are violated by the state. 2:41:20.800 --> 2:41:24.480 This one's a little different because during reconstruction, a lot 2:41:24.520 --> 2:41:27.160 of that violence, the intimidation, the actions being taken to 2:41:27.200 --> 2:41:30.640 deprive Black Americans of their newly granted rights, was being 2:41:30.720 --> 2:41:34.360 undertaken by private actors organizing together. Again, it's starting to 2:41:34.360 --> 2:41:35.119 feel familiar. 2:41:35.560 --> 2:41:38.840 Yeah, it's not like there could be groups of armed 2:41:38.879 --> 2:41:43.520 extremists monitoring voting sites trying to scare people away from 2:41:44.760 --> 2:41:47.920 from voting in an election. That could never happen. 2:41:48.000 --> 2:41:49.760 Now we've learned no lessons. 2:41:49.840 --> 2:41:53.039 Right, So, groups of white men organizing themselves, wearing matching outfits, 2:41:53.080 --> 2:41:55.760 conspiring to undertake actions to intimidate, harass, and harm the 2:41:55.800 --> 2:41:58.280 people they believe that are standing between them and the 2:41:58.320 --> 2:42:01.800 white America they were born to, right. Yeah, So the 2:42:01.800 --> 2:42:05.640 statute originally provided for both civil and criminal liability for 2:42:05.680 --> 2:42:09.320 these conspiracies. Interesting, and that first year Grant went hard 2:42:09.360 --> 2:42:12.680 in the paint with it. Oh like, he he went 2:42:13.560 --> 2:42:15.520 full hog like. As soon as he signed this into law, 2:42:15.959 --> 2:42:18.600 he was red d So in that first year or 2:42:18.600 --> 2:42:22.240 two after he signed the act, he broke the back 2:42:22.360 --> 2:42:25.360 of the Klan. Hundreds of klansmen were prosecuted in South 2:42:25.360 --> 2:42:28.320 Carolina alone. They were arresting so many klansmen so quickly 2:42:28.360 --> 2:42:30.440 that hundreds of them just went to their local courthouse 2:42:30.480 --> 2:42:32.440 and turned themselves in because they knew it was coming. 2:42:32.520 --> 2:42:34.879 Oh my god, it killed the Klan. Wow. 2:42:35.760 --> 2:42:38.760 But even before the Supreme Court decided twelve years later 2:42:38.800 --> 2:42:41.280 that I mean, when it comes to the crime part 2:42:41.320 --> 2:42:43.600 of this, maybe we should let the States handle it, right, 2:42:44.879 --> 2:42:47.680 so it no longer has a criminal liability component. 2:42:48.400 --> 2:42:50.720 So this just the civil liability left under that law. 2:42:51.360 --> 2:42:53.120 But even before the Supreme Court made that ruling in 2:42:53.120 --> 2:42:56.480 eighteen eighty three, the Klan Act prosecutions pretty much ended 2:42:56.520 --> 2:42:59.200 when reconstruction died, right, it was this brief moment in 2:42:59.280 --> 2:43:03.400 time when there was any appetite to do anything about this, Yeah, 2:43:03.440 --> 2:43:03.800 and it. 2:43:03.680 --> 2:43:04.760 Faded out pretty quickly. 2:43:04.879 --> 2:43:06.840 So today it's up to the victim to seek their 2:43:06.879 --> 2:43:09.240 own civil remedy when they're terrorized by the sons of 2:43:09.280 --> 2:43:09.880 the clansmen. 2:43:09.959 --> 2:43:14.879 We couldn't reconstruct well, do you know what we should construct? 2:43:15.320 --> 2:43:15.600 Molly? 2:43:16.480 --> 2:43:17.120 Oh god, Yeah. 2:43:17.200 --> 2:43:18.560 Robert told me that if I don't come up with 2:43:18.560 --> 2:43:20.680 a cool way to throw to ads, he's gonna put 2:43:20.680 --> 2:43:22.480 me in a dog kennel and air drop me onto 2:43:22.520 --> 2:43:25.680 an island where successful podcasters hunt people like me for sports. 2:43:25.720 --> 2:43:27.640 So that does sound like something he would say. But 2:43:28.080 --> 2:43:30.760 we could construct a compelling ad transition. 2:43:32.480 --> 2:43:45.640 Let's take you to the ads, all right, and we 2:43:45.720 --> 2:43:48.000 are back Garrison, and I'm going to tell you what's 2:43:48.080 --> 2:43:49.320 in these lawsuits. 2:43:49.920 --> 2:43:54.000 I'm so excited to hear about Patriot Front having to 2:43:54.040 --> 2:43:56.680 read a niche law. 2:43:57.000 --> 2:43:59.760 Well, the problem is they're pretending they don't have to. 2:44:00.120 --> 2:44:05.280 Oh well, that is also what I would do. I 2:44:05.320 --> 2:44:07.760 would be like, no, no way, I am not reading that. 2:44:08.000 --> 2:44:10.600 Fuck you. Well, we'll get to that in a second. 2:44:10.640 --> 2:44:14.000 So the first case filed was in Richmond, Virginia, so 2:44:14.080 --> 2:44:15.240 right here in my backyard. 2:44:15.480 --> 2:44:15.880 All right. 2:44:16.400 --> 2:44:19.320 So, thanks to repeated leaks of Patriot Front's internal communications 2:44:19.320 --> 2:44:22.520 and documents, we actually have video of them doing what's 2:44:22.560 --> 2:44:24.480 being alleged in this lawsuit. 2:44:24.400 --> 2:44:27.600 Which is inconvenient for them. It's not great. 2:44:28.280 --> 2:44:30.879 So the suit alleges and the video literally shows that. 2:44:30.920 --> 2:44:33.160 In October twenty twenty one, a couple of Patriot Front 2:44:33.200 --> 2:44:35.800 members vandalized a mural in a public park in Richmond. 2:44:36.400 --> 2:44:40.160 The mural celebrated American tennis legend Arthur Ash. Ash was 2:44:40.160 --> 2:44:42.680 born and raised in Richmond and started playing tennis as 2:44:42.680 --> 2:44:45.959 a child in Brookfield Park, which in the fifties when 2:44:46.000 --> 2:44:47.640 Ash was a child, was one of the few public 2:44:47.680 --> 2:44:51.280 parks opened to black residents. It was also the park 2:44:51.320 --> 2:44:53.960 that his father was the caretaker of. Right, So Arthur 2:44:54.000 --> 2:44:57.200 ash Richmond public parks, like this is a relationship from 2:44:57.200 --> 2:44:57.879 his childhood. 2:44:57.920 --> 2:44:59.520 R Yeah, it's like a very important place. 2:45:00.240 --> 2:45:02.280 You know, one of the best tennis players in American history, 2:45:02.480 --> 2:45:05.280 and he grew up his father worked for the park. 2:45:05.320 --> 2:45:07.920 He learned to play tennis at that park. That park, 2:45:07.959 --> 2:45:10.360 Brookfield Park, actually no longer exists, but the park where 2:45:10.360 --> 2:45:13.120 the mural was installed is in a predominantly black neighborhood. 2:45:13.360 --> 2:45:13.640 Okay. 2:45:14.640 --> 2:45:16.880 In the video they filmed of the vandalism, one Patriot 2:45:16.920 --> 2:45:20.200 Front member supportively tells two others to quote, get the 2:45:20.280 --> 2:45:21.760 fucking N word. 2:45:22.200 --> 2:45:24.039 They say it, I'm not, yeah. 2:45:23.800 --> 2:45:26.120 But the N words face as they're covering it up 2:45:26.120 --> 2:45:31.640 with spray paint and then play. So they filmed this themselves, right, 2:45:32.200 --> 2:45:35.800 They filmed this themselves and used it in later promotional videos. 2:45:35.879 --> 2:45:39.160 Videotaping this crime spree was the best idea we ever had. 2:45:39.600 --> 2:45:42.840 This is so funny that they just can't stop filming 2:45:42.840 --> 2:45:43.800 them doing crimes. 2:45:43.959 --> 2:45:47.199 Like they're not just taking notes on the conspiracy, they're 2:45:47.200 --> 2:45:49.760 filming themselves enthusiastically participating in it. 2:45:49.840 --> 2:45:49.960 Right. 2:45:50.440 --> 2:45:50.760 Funny. 2:45:50.800 --> 2:45:52.800 You know in the promotional videos there's no sound, but 2:45:52.959 --> 2:45:57.160 in the leaked documents. It's the original uncut video like. 2:45:57.160 --> 2:45:59.800 Once you have like discovery or something. Also, all all 2:46:00.040 --> 2:46:03.199 all that audio exists, that is, it is the privilege 2:46:03.200 --> 2:46:04.680 of the court to be able to listen to that. 2:46:05.240 --> 2:46:07.560 Well we have so you know when they cut their promos, 2:46:07.600 --> 2:46:09.959 you know, they're playing like cool music over it. But 2:46:10.040 --> 2:46:12.840 in the leaked version that we got from I think 2:46:12.840 --> 2:46:14.520 it was in the Rocket Chat leaks. 2:46:14.520 --> 2:46:15.560 It was in the second big leak. 2:46:15.920 --> 2:46:17.640 Okay, you can hear them saying, like, you know, get 2:46:17.640 --> 2:46:20.039 the fucking N words face as they're spray painting over 2:46:20.280 --> 2:46:23.800 Arthur Ash's face and then stenciling over that with their logo. 2:46:24.160 --> 2:46:33.880 Sure, they're just like, hey, it was us. They're just 2:46:33.920 --> 2:46:35.080 like leaving it fair. 2:46:35.680 --> 2:46:37.760 And just so we're super clear about this, this is 2:46:37.879 --> 2:46:40.320 racially motivated. Put that on the tape, like. 2:46:40.879 --> 2:46:43.080 Uh yeah yeah. 2:46:43.120 --> 2:46:45.840 And so this is probably the weaker of the three cases. Right, 2:46:46.560 --> 2:46:49.000 the plaintiffs in this suit are basing their nineteen eighty 2:46:49.040 --> 2:46:51.000 five claim that you know, this is a racially motivated 2:46:51.000 --> 2:46:53.840 conspiracy to interfere with the right of black residents to 2:46:53.959 --> 2:46:56.400 enjoy a place of public accommodation, right that a place 2:46:56.440 --> 2:46:58.840 of public accommodation is sort of the legal structure for 2:46:59.240 --> 2:47:00.959 places where you're not a to fuck with my rights. 2:47:01.200 --> 2:47:03.720 In this case, it's a public park. The suit makes 2:47:03.720 --> 2:47:06.560 a similar and separate claim under Virginia's civil conspiracy law 2:47:06.800 --> 2:47:10.320 for racial, religious, and ethnic harassment, and unlike the other 2:47:10.360 --> 2:47:13.160 two suits, this complaint is pretty specific about who the 2:47:13.200 --> 2:47:16.560 defendants are, because they recorded the planning meeting and the 2:47:16.560 --> 2:47:20.640 act of vandalism, and because anti fascist researchers have identified 2:47:20.680 --> 2:47:24.240 many of the real names behind the pseudonyms. So these 2:47:24.280 --> 2:47:27.279 plaintiffs name not just the organization itself and Thomas Rousseau, 2:47:27.360 --> 2:47:30.320 but seven individual members who were involved, and they hope 2:47:30.320 --> 2:47:34.000 to identify nineteen John Doe defendants in discovery. And so 2:47:34.040 --> 2:47:36.119 the most recent suit, the third one to be filed. 2:47:36.120 --> 2:47:37.680 We'll get back to the second one and a second 2:47:38.120 --> 2:47:40.359 is similar to the Richmond suit because it also arises 2:47:40.360 --> 2:47:42.400 out of an instance of vandalism. But this one looks 2:47:42.400 --> 2:47:44.840 a little stronger. I think I should be clear I'm 2:47:44.840 --> 2:47:48.959 not a lawyer. I just an enthusiastic consumer of the law. 2:47:49.680 --> 2:47:54.120 Yes, you spent a lot of time reading what I 2:47:54.160 --> 2:47:56.760 would call extremely boring documents. 2:47:57.000 --> 2:47:59.119 Oh, I love my document. I pay thousands of dollars 2:47:59.160 --> 2:48:02.360 a year to look at these documents. Oh, it's that 2:48:02.440 --> 2:48:05.680 drill post like, please, someone please help me, someone who's 2:48:05.680 --> 2:48:06.400 good at budgeting. 2:48:08.080 --> 2:48:09.840 We will do our best to give you as many 2:48:09.840 --> 2:48:11.080 documents as you want, Molly. 2:48:11.959 --> 2:48:14.199 These documents cost ten cents a page. I'm a single 2:48:14.200 --> 2:48:16.960 issue voter on free access to federal court documents. 2:48:17.040 --> 2:48:19.119 Yeah, all my homies hate Pacer. 2:48:20.160 --> 2:48:21.960 So in the Richmond case, we have black residents and 2:48:22.000 --> 2:48:24.560 a black neighborhood alleging a racial intimidation at a place 2:48:24.600 --> 2:48:27.480 of public accommodation, a public park. But in North Dakota, 2:48:27.920 --> 2:48:30.120 the suit is brought by the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition, 2:48:30.200 --> 2:48:32.879 the Immigrant Development Center, and an unnamed plaintiff who works 2:48:32.879 --> 2:48:35.440 at the Immigrant Development Center. I mean it arises out 2:48:35.480 --> 2:48:38.800 of two acts of vandalism at the International Market Plaza 2:48:38.840 --> 2:48:42.200 and Fargo, North Dakota. The International Market Plaza is run 2:48:42.240 --> 2:48:45.040 by the Immigrant Development Center. It's a large indoor market 2:48:45.120 --> 2:48:48.039 space that supports immigrant run small businesses and has community 2:48:48.080 --> 2:48:49.720 spaces for the immigrant community. 2:48:49.959 --> 2:48:50.560 Sounds cool. 2:48:50.800 --> 2:48:53.360 Yeah, there's shops and restaurants and after school programs for 2:48:53.480 --> 2:48:55.240 kids and business development classes. 2:48:55.520 --> 2:48:56.800 I'm sure there's great food. 2:48:57.280 --> 2:48:57.480 Yeah. 2:48:57.520 --> 2:49:01.959 It seems nice, they seem like people. In September of 2:49:01.959 --> 2:49:05.240 twenty twenty two, Patriot Front trustpassed onto the nonprofits property 2:49:05.600 --> 2:49:08.680 and spray painted the windows with their logo. And so 2:49:08.760 --> 2:49:11.080 this was not an isolated incident, right, Patriot funt had 2:49:11.080 --> 2:49:13.120 targeted other businesses in the Fargo area and the months 2:49:13.200 --> 2:49:15.800 leading up to this, including a queer worker owned coffee shop. 2:49:16.080 --> 2:49:18.360 So the tenants at the marketplace knew who Patriot Front 2:49:18.400 --> 2:49:20.440 was and what the message is in the windows meant, 2:49:21.000 --> 2:49:23.240 and they were understandably frightened to have been targeted and 2:49:23.280 --> 2:49:26.600 fearful that this could escalate, and it did. Two days later, 2:49:26.600 --> 2:49:29.040 Patriot Front came back to the marketplace and destroyed a 2:49:29.120 --> 2:49:33.480 mural celebrating multiculturalism, including placing Patriot Front logos over the 2:49:33.480 --> 2:49:35.560 faces of women in hijobs in one panel. 2:49:35.280 --> 2:49:35.800 Of the mural. 2:49:36.520 --> 2:49:40.440 Yeah, I've had to like call up shops or businesses 2:49:40.480 --> 2:49:43.720 after they've been targeted or I've like seen I've like 2:49:43.760 --> 2:49:46.520 seen on telegram like oh, this thing's happening in this 2:49:46.560 --> 2:49:49.200 area and be like explained to like this poor this 2:49:49.400 --> 2:49:52.200 like poor employee, like who who this is and why 2:49:52.240 --> 2:49:54.720 it's happening, and like what to do? Because they're often 2:49:54.800 --> 2:49:58.080 very like confused, they don't know what's going on. Yeah, 2:49:58.120 --> 2:50:00.120 it sucks that which they started like involved just to 2:50:00.160 --> 2:50:05.040 other people trying to like make just like live out 2:50:05.040 --> 2:50:07.840 their day, but also like specifically targeting people of color, 2:50:08.440 --> 2:50:10.920 targeting the LGBTQ community, and. 2:50:11.320 --> 2:50:11.920 Yeah, it is. 2:50:11.959 --> 2:50:12.280 It is. 2:50:12.360 --> 2:50:15.200 It is a fortunately very common occurrence because a lot 2:50:15.240 --> 2:50:18.880 of Patriot Front's activity, when they're not marching around getting 2:50:18.920 --> 2:50:22.680 beat up in Philadelphia, are just putting up like stickers 2:50:22.760 --> 2:50:24.920 and doing graffiti like that. That is kind of most 2:50:24.920 --> 2:50:27.240 of what they do. Sometimes they'll do like a banner 2:50:27.280 --> 2:50:28.039 drop or something. 2:50:28.440 --> 2:50:29.920 Well they think about the stickers is I don't know 2:50:30.000 --> 2:50:33.920 if everyone is deep in lore, but it's required. 2:50:34.800 --> 2:50:36.560 So it's that's what they call their activism. 2:50:36.640 --> 2:50:36.800 Right. 2:50:36.840 --> 2:50:38.600 In order to be a member, you have to post 2:50:38.640 --> 2:50:40.879 pictures of you putting up stickers. 2:50:40.840 --> 2:50:43.640 Like there are like spreadsheets and documents, and your network 2:50:43.680 --> 2:50:45.840 director is keeping tabs, and you have to report in 2:50:45.879 --> 2:50:48.560 every week about what activism you've engaged in, and you 2:50:48.560 --> 2:50:51.320 have to provide video and photo proof of you doing 2:50:51.600 --> 2:50:53.119 these acts of vandalism, which. 2:50:52.920 --> 2:50:55.320 Is a pretty smart on Patriot Front's part, because they 2:50:55.360 --> 2:50:59.800 also sell their stickers so it's it's a great pyramid scheme. 2:51:00.120 --> 2:51:03.280 Yeah, it's got MLM energy. Yeah, I know. 2:51:03.440 --> 2:51:06.280 Uh, Robert Rundo and the Patriot Front guy were like 2:51:06.360 --> 2:51:09.880 working together on a sticker manufacturing business for a while. 2:51:10.320 --> 2:51:13.080 I don't think that's working out super well for Rundo, but. 2:51:14.040 --> 2:51:18.280 Uh, yeah, he's some currently awaiting trial in prison, right 2:51:18.480 --> 2:51:19.000 I believe. 2:51:19.040 --> 2:51:23.440 So, yeah, after fleeing to what is it like Romania 2:51:23.560 --> 2:51:29.360 for like Belgrade expert, Yes, yes, Serbia, that that's that's 2:51:29.360 --> 2:51:29.720 where it was. 2:51:29.800 --> 2:51:31.080 Yeah, yeah, yeah, rough. 2:51:31.600 --> 2:51:33.360 But so in this case, you know, it's this is 2:51:33.400 --> 2:51:35.360 not just stickers, right, the stickers that you can peel 2:51:35.400 --> 2:51:37.280 off it. You know, you're uncomfortable, you're scared, but you 2:51:37.280 --> 2:51:39.040 can peel tho stickers off and move on with your day. 2:51:39.440 --> 2:51:42.520 They spray painted over a mural that cost forty five 2:51:42.640 --> 2:51:43.680 thousand dollars. 2:51:43.920 --> 2:51:47.960 Oh so well this is this is interesting because I'm 2:51:47.959 --> 2:51:51.840 not a law expert, but they may be financially liable 2:51:51.959 --> 2:51:53.920 for that extremely high cost. 2:51:54.600 --> 2:51:56.520 Right, So unlike in the Arthur Ash murral, which was 2:51:56.560 --> 2:51:58.080 property of the City of Richmond. You know, so the 2:51:58.080 --> 2:52:00.480 plaintiffs in that suit don't own that mural. They just 2:52:00.920 --> 2:52:03.160 feel that they've been infringed upon because now they're afraid 2:52:03.160 --> 2:52:05.240 to go to the public park. In this case, the 2:52:05.280 --> 2:52:08.960 plaintiff has been financially damaged to a significant degree. 2:52:09.200 --> 2:52:10.160 This mural was. 2:52:10.320 --> 2:52:13.039 They got a grant, they had community input, it was 2:52:13.160 --> 2:52:15.959 made by local artists, and now it is destroyed. It 2:52:16.040 --> 2:52:18.920 is a thing of value, it is their property, and 2:52:18.959 --> 2:52:22.560 the law really cares about property. Oh yeah, now we 2:52:22.600 --> 2:52:27.199 have quantifiable damage to property belonging to the plaintiff. After 2:52:27.200 --> 2:52:29.840 these two incidents, individual shopkeepers had to buy their own 2:52:29.840 --> 2:52:32.560 security cameras, They shortened their hours because they were scared 2:52:32.560 --> 2:52:35.240 to be thereafter dark, and the marketplace as a whole 2:52:35.240 --> 2:52:38.439 actually still operates on reduced hours due to safety concerns. 2:52:39.280 --> 2:52:41.280 The executive director of the nonprofit had to buy a 2:52:41.280 --> 2:52:43.400 security system for her home and doesn't like to go 2:52:43.440 --> 2:52:47.000 to work unaccompanied. I mean, it's genuine fear in this place. 2:52:47.080 --> 2:52:47.280 Now. 2:52:47.840 --> 2:52:50.000 That's the other thing is that these sorts of acts 2:52:50.000 --> 2:52:52.680 of vandalism come with like an implicit threat of violence 2:52:53.040 --> 2:52:55.280 that we can get together a crew of five guys 2:52:55.320 --> 2:52:58.119 wearing masks and show up at this place of work, 2:52:58.200 --> 2:53:00.520 or we could already be there when you arrive. 2:53:01.320 --> 2:53:03.959 Well, there was the Actually in the lawsuit, one of 2:53:03.959 --> 2:53:06.200 the paragress in the suit says, you know that the 2:53:06.280 --> 2:53:08.880 day after this happened, because the day in between the 2:53:08.920 --> 2:53:12.039 two separate acts, a couple of white guys acting sketchy 2:53:12.080 --> 2:53:14.680 were wandering around the marketplace taking pictures of people. 2:53:14.800 --> 2:53:16.240 Yeah, I bet yeah, people are scared. 2:53:17.080 --> 2:53:21.520 The marketplace's immigrant shopkeepers and customers absolutely understood the intent 2:53:21.600 --> 2:53:23.760 of this vandalism, and it was the same message that 2:53:23.800 --> 2:53:27.400 they chanted here in Charlottesville. You will not replace us, 2:53:27.520 --> 2:53:30.880 right loud and clear, those in that spray paint. And 2:53:30.920 --> 2:53:32.920 so their ability to transact business, to use a place 2:53:32.959 --> 2:53:36.279 of public accommodation, to feel safe in public was taken 2:53:36.280 --> 2:53:39.360 from them in an organized, pre planned act, arising out 2:53:39.360 --> 2:53:42.400 of discriminatory animus. And again that that sort of discriminatory 2:53:42.440 --> 2:53:45.880 animus clause is important in application of this statue. 2:53:45.920 --> 2:53:46.080 Right. 2:53:46.520 --> 2:53:48.680 So, in the North Dakota suit, they're suing Patriot Front, 2:53:48.720 --> 2:53:52.320 the organization Thomas Rousseau as its leader, and the regional 2:53:52.360 --> 2:53:56.120 network director for that area, Trevor Vellescu. And they're also 2:53:56.160 --> 2:54:00.160 seeking to identify ten John Does in discovery, so they 2:54:00.200 --> 2:54:01.720 don't know who all of these guys are that are 2:54:01.720 --> 2:54:05.720 getting sued, but they're gonna find out. And the third suit, 2:54:05.840 --> 2:54:09.520 Boston lawsuit, is really the most straightforward. A black man 2:54:09.560 --> 2:54:10.240 got assaulted. 2:54:10.600 --> 2:54:11.240 There's video. 2:54:11.879 --> 2:54:14.480 The video is actually taken by a member of Patriot 2:54:14.480 --> 2:54:17.920 Front from the Again, it. 2:54:17.879 --> 2:54:19.039 Gets worse, it gets worse. 2:54:19.120 --> 2:54:21.480 So the video was taken by the member from inside 2:54:21.520 --> 2:54:23.840 the ranks of the march, and it shows members making 2:54:23.840 --> 2:54:27.720 physical contact with Charles Morrel on a public sidewalk in Boston. 2:54:27.840 --> 2:54:29.480 So they were up there. It was just before fourth 2:54:29.520 --> 2:54:32.320 of July. They were marching on Boston's Freedom Trail. 2:54:32.959 --> 2:54:36.320 I think I remember this one, yeah. 2:54:35.560 --> 2:54:39.080 And Charles Morrell was outside the public library. He was 2:54:39.240 --> 2:54:41.360 a busker, he was playing music outside the library on 2:54:41.360 --> 2:54:46.760 the sidewalk. And this video didn't get leaked. This video 2:54:46.840 --> 2:54:52.240 they posted themselves, they proudly on their telegram channel, yep, 2:54:52.400 --> 2:54:54.960 and they posted it on their telegram channel the day 2:54:55.040 --> 2:54:56.560 the lawsuit was filed. 2:54:56.959 --> 2:55:01.640 Genius genius move. Once again, the galaxy of brain folks 2:55:01.680 --> 2:55:05.119 over at Patriot Front just cannot stop putting pretty dog 2:55:05.160 --> 2:55:08.000 shit electronic music over videos of them doing crimes. 2:55:08.879 --> 2:55:12.000 And so even though I would say if thirteen months 2:55:12.040 --> 2:55:15.119 after this incident occurred, I'm just randomly posting a video 2:55:15.840 --> 2:55:16.640 of this happening. 2:55:16.840 --> 2:55:17.640 That's so weird. 2:55:18.760 --> 2:55:20.880 I would say it's probably because you know that you're 2:55:20.920 --> 2:55:22.800 being sued. But there are a few They have not 2:55:22.879 --> 2:55:27.480 acknowledged this lawsuit. They don't acknowledge that the suit exists. 2:55:26.720 --> 2:55:30.039 Which which the government loves. When people don't acknowledge lawsuits 2:55:30.040 --> 2:55:31.000 that are happening to them. 2:55:31.360 --> 2:55:33.480 You can't just like la la la la la your 2:55:33.520 --> 2:55:34.880 way out of a lawsuit. Red. 2:55:35.040 --> 2:55:38.600 You can try to go into hiding like forever and yeah, 2:55:38.800 --> 2:55:40.440 we'll see how that goes. 2:55:41.120 --> 2:55:43.000 And so, just a few weeks ago, when Patriot Front 2:55:43.040 --> 2:55:44.840 was like wandering around in the snow at the March 2:55:44.840 --> 2:55:48.960 for Life in DC, a reporter asked Rousseau about the 2:55:48.959 --> 2:55:50.880 incident in Boston. He didn't bring up the lawsuit. 2:55:50.879 --> 2:55:52.160 I wish he had. I would love to get him 2:55:52.160 --> 2:55:53.240 on tape on that one. 2:55:53.280 --> 2:55:55.400 But you asked him about the incident in Boston, and 2:55:55.480 --> 2:55:57.880 Rousseau continues to claim that, like, look, we've posted the 2:55:57.920 --> 2:55:59.720 video and it exonerates us. 2:56:01.720 --> 2:56:04.959 I'm sure, oh, I'm sure it does, buddy. When I 2:56:05.000 --> 2:56:05.360 watched the. 2:56:05.400 --> 2:56:08.160 Video, I mostly just see a masked gang of fascist 2:56:08.240 --> 2:56:11.640 using their custom made and branded metal shields to beat 2:56:11.680 --> 2:56:14.000 a black man who's using a public sidewalk, forcing him 2:56:14.040 --> 2:56:15.520 into the street and slamming his head into the pole 2:56:15.560 --> 2:56:17.320 and he had to get stitches. But I guess it's 2:56:17.360 --> 2:56:19.400 like it's up for the courts to decide if him 2:56:19.400 --> 2:56:21.560 being in their way was the real crime here. 2:56:22.400 --> 2:56:23.400 Yeah, yeah, they was. 2:56:23.680 --> 2:56:28.240 I mean it's funny because like it's it's it's not funny, 2:56:28.240 --> 2:56:30.640 But I have I have, I have seen cops before 2:56:30.840 --> 2:56:36.560 used the exact same justification. Yes, it is different because 2:56:36.560 --> 2:56:41.000 cops are special little boys because you can't sue them. Yeah, 2:56:41.080 --> 2:56:43.560 but no, it is funny how much Patriot Front are 2:56:43.600 --> 2:56:46.000 just trying to act like want to be cops who 2:56:46.080 --> 2:56:47.600 do graffiti. 2:56:48.240 --> 2:56:49.720 Right, Like if you wanted to be a riot cop, 2:56:49.800 --> 2:56:51.199 like most cities are hiring. 2:56:51.120 --> 2:56:52.760 Be a riot cop. That's not that hard. 2:56:54.600 --> 2:56:56.360 I've seen a lot of guys doing it that I 2:56:56.400 --> 2:56:59.360 don't think are capable of much else. Yeah, So in 2:56:59.400 --> 2:57:01.959 this in the bus in lawsuit, the name defendants are 2:57:02.080 --> 2:57:05.640 just Thomas Russo and Patriot Front, but they are hoping 2:57:05.720 --> 2:57:08.680 to identify John doe'es one through ninety nine. 2:57:09.040 --> 2:57:11.680 Well, I only wish them good luck. 2:57:13.520 --> 2:57:16.240 So Garrison, you were saying you know, you can't just 2:57:16.320 --> 2:57:18.039 hide forever, right, I. 2:57:18.560 --> 2:57:24.240 Usually not, Well, you could try, You can certainly that. Look, 2:57:24.440 --> 2:57:27.840 you can always try. There are certain people Hidig who 2:57:27.879 --> 2:57:31.360 I wish only the best. There are many others Hidig 2:57:31.520 --> 2:57:34.280 who I think are probably bad people. And it's not 2:57:34.320 --> 2:57:37.119 like I enjoy the violence of the state. But if 2:57:37.160 --> 2:57:41.400 someone happens to stumble into experience the experiencing the violence 2:57:41.440 --> 2:57:44.000 of the state will also wanting to wish violence upon 2:57:44.000 --> 2:57:47.240 me and my friends. I'm not gonna stop that from happening. 2:57:48.120 --> 2:57:51.480 So these lawsuits, right, they got filed, But filing a 2:57:51.560 --> 2:57:54.240 lawsuit just means you paid a fee to give it 2:57:54.240 --> 2:57:57.039 to the court clerk. When you're suing someone, you have 2:57:57.080 --> 2:58:00.039 to serve them with papers. To serve them with papers. 2:58:00.040 --> 2:58:01.920 You have to find them. You have to track them down. 2:58:02.320 --> 2:58:04.080 And normally that's pretty straightforward. 2:58:04.120 --> 2:58:04.240 Right. 2:58:04.280 --> 2:58:06.280 People have homes, they have jobs, they have routines, they 2:58:06.320 --> 2:58:08.400 have friends and family. There's places they go, there's places 2:58:08.440 --> 2:58:10.920 they shop. You can you can find most people because 2:58:10.920 --> 2:58:13.560 most people aren't hiding, and most people aren't good at hiding. 2:58:13.800 --> 2:58:16.720 But Thomas Rousseau does not seem to want to be found. 2:58:17.520 --> 2:58:17.680 Now. 2:58:17.680 --> 2:58:21.039 The first suit filed the Virginia suit. They did manage 2:58:21.040 --> 2:58:23.520 to serve Rousseau at that house in Grapevine, Texas that 2:58:23.560 --> 2:58:26.880 his father was had owned no longer owns, but he 2:58:26.920 --> 2:58:29.040 and some other Patriot Front members were living in that house. 2:58:29.240 --> 2:58:29.480 Yep. 2:58:30.320 --> 2:58:32.760 But not long after those papers were served to him there, 2:58:33.000 --> 2:58:35.520 that house was sold in a foreclosure sale. 2:58:35.600 --> 2:58:41.400 God, I'm sure that house smelled awful. Imagine Oh, it's. 2:58:41.240 --> 2:58:43.400 Like you've never got to feel bad for the foreclosure 2:58:43.440 --> 2:58:47.840 sale guy. It's like a gym locker in there. Imagine 2:58:47.879 --> 2:58:49.520 stafving to stage that house for sale. 2:58:49.680 --> 2:58:53.480 The only only worse at smell is inside the Patriot 2:58:53.480 --> 2:58:57.560 in front U hauls because oh wow, driving six hours 2:58:57.600 --> 2:59:01.440 in the Idaho the Idaho summer, with like thirty other 2:59:01.600 --> 2:59:05.640 guys in the back of that truck, it must be awful. 2:59:06.560 --> 2:59:08.120 Do you remember. I think he was in the first leak. 2:59:08.200 --> 2:59:09.720 Some of the guys were complaining about how when they 2:59:09.760 --> 2:59:10.800 had to ride in the back of the U haul 2:59:10.840 --> 2:59:14.119 they were getting sick and like passing out and be like. 2:59:14.400 --> 2:59:18.199 Oh, you're walked in there throwing up ivan just smell 2:59:18.280 --> 2:59:20.320 everyone else's vomits, but. 2:59:20.240 --> 2:59:23.119 Also like there's carbon monoxide and it's hot. 2:59:23.160 --> 2:59:25.840 Like you're not to be back there. It's so funny. 2:59:26.240 --> 2:59:28.120 But the advice that the advice that Russo gave them, 2:59:28.120 --> 2:59:30.240 when they were saying like, hey, like we were getting 2:59:30.240 --> 2:59:32.080 sick back there, like it's it's not safe, like we 2:59:32.120 --> 2:59:36.400 were barfing and passing out, he recommended that they practice overheating. 2:59:36.640 --> 2:59:38.200 Yeah, gett just get better. 2:59:38.480 --> 2:59:42.680 Get Yeah, like you like endurance tested, just start hanging 2:59:42.680 --> 2:59:44.360 out in the back of you hauls for fun. 2:59:45.000 --> 2:59:47.000 That's actually not how heatstroke works. 2:59:47.040 --> 2:59:49.520 But no, I'm pretty sure you could just think your 2:59:49.520 --> 2:59:52.640 way through heatstroke. I look, I guess I think a 2:59:52.760 --> 2:59:55.640 chat alpha male should be able to sit in a 2:59:55.680 --> 3:00:01.320 packed truck for seventeen hours be totally fine. 3:00:02.120 --> 3:00:05.240 So the house, the stinky house, sold foreclosed. So by 3:00:05.240 --> 3:00:08.760 the time the Boston lawsuit process server came to find 3:00:08.840 --> 3:00:11.320 him there, it was already for sale. Yeah, there's nobody, 3:00:11.440 --> 3:00:13.560 nobody to serve. So they hired a legal research firm. 3:00:13.640 --> 3:00:16.200 They sent process servers to addresses all over Texas and 3:00:16.240 --> 3:00:19.200 they came up empty. So what do you do when 3:00:19.200 --> 3:00:21.520 a guy who knows process servers are looking for him 3:00:22.160 --> 3:00:22.879 can't be found? 3:00:23.080 --> 3:00:25.480 Should have served him at that march in Washington, d C. 3:00:26.680 --> 3:00:28.920 Honestly, why were they not mobilized for that, I could 3:00:28.959 --> 3:00:30.120 have told you they were going to be there. 3:00:30.200 --> 3:00:32.600 I mean, I think that would require some collaboration with 3:00:32.640 --> 3:00:34.600 like anti fascists, researchers who like know when these things 3:00:34.640 --> 3:00:36.720 are happening, so like that, I think that's probably why 3:00:36.800 --> 3:00:39.360 is that that's just a little bit tricky. But if 3:00:39.600 --> 3:00:42.440 there were more willingness for collaboration, I think that probably 3:00:42.440 --> 3:00:43.440 could be successful. 3:00:43.800 --> 3:00:44.480 You can find him. 3:00:44.600 --> 3:00:47.880 Right, So, if I were two, for example, file a 3:00:47.959 --> 3:00:49.560 lawsuit against you today. 3:00:49.840 --> 3:00:52.800 Well, and I what if I did, I'm so innocent 3:00:55.800 --> 3:00:57.840 if I just never if I just filed my lawsuit, 3:00:57.920 --> 3:00:59.520 pay the fee to file it, but I just never 3:00:59.560 --> 3:00:59.920 served you. 3:01:00.000 --> 3:01:02.039 Oh, that's on me. That's my fault. I can't take 3:01:02.040 --> 3:01:04.800 the necessary steps. My suit's going to get dismissed. But 3:01:04.840 --> 3:01:07.320 if I'm really trying, I'm hiring investigators, I'm knocking on 3:01:07.360 --> 3:01:09.200 neighbors doors to ask if they've seen you. I'm looking 3:01:09.280 --> 3:01:11.280 under every rock for any sign of where you might be. 3:01:11.959 --> 3:01:15.400 That's different. That's not on me anymore, that's on you. 3:01:15.920 --> 3:01:17.680 And there's ample precedent for this right and the law 3:01:17.720 --> 3:01:21.119 is pretty clear. You can't escape being sued by playing 3:01:21.160 --> 3:01:22.160 cat and mouse. 3:01:23.000 --> 3:01:24.840 The old Tom and Jerry method. 3:01:25.520 --> 3:01:27.039 And I feel like once I start saying things like 3:01:27.040 --> 3:01:28.920 the federal rules of civil procedure, people are going to 3:01:28.959 --> 3:01:31.120 turn the podcast turn off. 3:01:31.160 --> 3:01:33.040 That doesn't for us today, folks, that it could happen here, 3:01:33.080 --> 3:01:34.000 Thank you for listening. 3:01:34.800 --> 3:01:38.480 But so in federal court, the rules allow alternative service 3:01:38.520 --> 3:01:41.760 by means that are allowable in that state. Right, so 3:01:41.800 --> 3:01:44.320 even though they're in federal court in North Dakota, they 3:01:44.360 --> 3:01:47.840 can use methods available in North Dakota courts to serve 3:01:47.879 --> 3:01:51.320 their defendants. And so in North Dakota, if you've tried 3:01:51.320 --> 3:01:53.959 your best, you've exhausted the normal means, conducted a diligent search, 3:01:54.360 --> 3:01:57.360 you can do what's called service by publication, which means 3:01:57.400 --> 3:01:59.480 you just publish a notice in the newspaper. 3:02:00.080 --> 3:02:04.480 Really, yeah, oh that's I didn't know that. That's interesting. 3:02:05.200 --> 3:02:07.400 And you have to you have to try really hard first, right, 3:02:07.440 --> 3:02:10.520 they really did try. They hired investigators, their hard servers, 3:02:10.560 --> 3:02:12.959 like they did, they did their due diligence. Yeah, and 3:02:12.959 --> 3:02:15.680 so the judge said, okay, you tried your best. Put 3:02:15.680 --> 3:02:19.280 it in the paper that they got mad. Put it 3:02:19.320 --> 3:02:20.039 in the paper. 3:02:19.800 --> 3:02:22.000 That they got sued. And so they did. 3:02:22.200 --> 3:02:25.560 They published the notification in a Cass County, North Dakota 3:02:25.640 --> 3:02:28.280 newspaper for a few months in a row. And so now, 3:02:28.320 --> 3:02:31.760 as far as that court is concerned, they've been served 3:02:31.879 --> 3:02:32.560 all right. 3:02:33.240 --> 3:02:34.080 And it worked. 3:02:34.280 --> 3:02:36.480 A few weeks later, they got a lawyer. 3:02:37.680 --> 3:02:40.120 Oh oh, okay, this is this is this is a 3:02:40.400 --> 3:02:40.879 news to me. 3:02:41.280 --> 3:02:43.000 Yeah, things are moving, things are making. For the North 3:02:43.120 --> 3:02:47.360 Dakota lawsuit, the two named individual defendants, Thomas Russeau and 3:02:47.400 --> 3:02:48.760 network director Trevor Bileescu. 3:02:49.480 --> 3:02:50.280 They got a lawyer. 3:02:50.480 --> 3:02:52.920 And his name's gonna sound familiar to you because it 3:02:53.000 --> 3:02:54.520 is Jason Lee Van Dyke. 3:02:54.959 --> 3:02:59.560 Oh oh well, I yeah, you gotta love Dyke. 3:02:59.600 --> 3:02:59.760 Cus. 3:02:59.760 --> 3:03:03.039 I'm like, what's not to love? What a good kind? 3:03:03.200 --> 3:03:04.000 Not a good kind? 3:03:04.120 --> 3:03:07.360 Oh wait wait, I'm receiving some special intel. This is 3:03:07.400 --> 3:03:09.720 not not what I was thinking. 3:03:10.320 --> 3:03:10.400 No. 3:03:10.600 --> 3:03:13.240 Unfortunately, if his name does sound familiar to it might 3:03:13.280 --> 3:03:16.320 be because for thirty six hours towards the end of 3:03:16.320 --> 3:03:18.959 twenty eighteen, he was the national chairman of the Proud Boys. 3:03:19.160 --> 3:03:20.560 But then actually he quit instead. 3:03:22.160 --> 3:03:25.280 Honestly, what are this? What are the smarter moves? 3:03:26.440 --> 3:03:29.760 So he'd represented Proud Boys in various legal actions over 3:03:29.760 --> 3:03:32.520 the years. He was a member for several years, but 3:03:32.720 --> 3:03:36.320 as his LinkedIn currently and rather aggressively notes, he is 3:03:36.400 --> 3:03:38.160 not a proud boy anymore. 3:03:38.680 --> 3:03:41.920 A lot of a lot of people are asking questions 3:03:41.920 --> 3:03:45.360 about my shirt already, saying I'm not a proud boy. 3:03:45.560 --> 3:03:45.720 Huh. 3:03:46.040 --> 3:03:48.440 Interesting, Yeah, I feel like I actually, I actually, I am 3:03:48.400 --> 3:03:51.360 familiar with this guy. He was involved in a suit 3:03:51.520 --> 3:03:53.440 with the group I was looking into a few years back. 3:03:54.160 --> 3:03:56.080 Yeah, he's done a little bit of movement lawyering, so 3:03:56.120 --> 3:03:59.360 this isn't his first rodeo. And he denies that he 3:03:59.440 --> 3:04:01.320 is a member of Patriot Front, though he has spoken 3:04:01.360 --> 3:04:04.600 to the press on numerous occasions claiming to represent various 3:04:04.600 --> 3:04:05.119 members of. 3:04:05.040 --> 3:04:09.840 Patriot He's non member. Yeah, I mean, I mean sure, 3:04:10.000 --> 3:04:10.280 I like. 3:04:10.760 --> 3:04:14.040 He has specifically denied allegations that he is Patriot Front 3:04:14.120 --> 3:04:16.359 user John Texas in the leaked. 3:04:16.240 --> 3:04:19.600 Chats, although oh, okay, well, he. 3:04:19.520 --> 3:04:21.840 Says that he is not John Texas has a lot 3:04:21.879 --> 3:04:25.960 in common with Jason Leevenda But okay, Jason le Vandyke 3:04:26.040 --> 3:04:27.480 denies that he is John Texas. 3:04:27.760 --> 3:04:29.160 Okay, well, I'm sure. 3:04:29.760 --> 3:04:31.920 I look, I have no reason to not trust a dyke, 3:04:32.160 --> 3:04:34.480 so yeah, I'm sure that's fine. 3:04:34.760 --> 3:04:38.240 Yeah, And it's interesting. So he lives in North Texas 3:04:38.320 --> 3:04:40.680 right where you know. Oh oh, he does home home 3:04:40.720 --> 3:04:43.800 base for these Patriot Front boys. Yeah, he's never practiced 3:04:43.840 --> 3:04:46.400 in North Dakota before. He's not barred in North Dakota. 3:04:46.720 --> 3:04:50.600 Wait what inexplicably? So you know, you have to take 3:04:50.640 --> 3:04:53.760 the bar exam to be in a state bar normally. 3:04:53.959 --> 3:04:56.280 Normally to get admitted to a federal court, you have 3:04:56.360 --> 3:04:59.760 to be barred in that state. North Dakota doesn't require that. 3:05:00.120 --> 3:05:02.360 Just have to pay a fee. Okay, So it's a 3:05:02.360 --> 3:05:06.200 little it's strange. He applied to be admitted to the 3:05:07.360 --> 3:05:09.879 federal court in North Dakota right around the time this 3:05:09.959 --> 3:05:11.040 lawsuit got filed. 3:05:12.879 --> 3:05:13.560 Huh. 3:05:13.720 --> 3:05:16.840 But then he didn't actually enter an appearance until the 3:05:16.959 --> 3:05:19.560 judge said, yeah, they've been served. You can't hide. 3:05:20.240 --> 3:05:22.959 So he didn't know about it, Yeah, he was just yes, 3:05:23.200 --> 3:05:23.720 I guess. 3:05:23.720 --> 3:05:25.840 It seems like it seems like he knew he was 3:05:25.879 --> 3:05:29.039 just working with Patriot Front to make it harder to 3:05:29.080 --> 3:05:32.680 be served. Is Again, that's not a legal claim I'm making. 3:05:32.760 --> 3:05:35.200 I'm just just making a guess. 3:05:35.400 --> 3:05:38.480 I'm just saying he has never practiced in North Dakota before, 3:05:38.640 --> 3:05:42.000 but he did apply to be admitted to the court 3:05:42.400 --> 3:05:45.199 around the time the lawsuit was filed. That's ah interesting, 3:05:45.760 --> 3:05:48.040 the boss and case is a little wilder. Right, So 3:05:48.160 --> 3:05:51.080 it's twenty twenty four, we're all online, and it's not 3:05:51.160 --> 3:05:53.400 actually unheard of to get permission from the court to 3:05:53.440 --> 3:05:57.080 serve someone electronically if you've tried everything else. Yeah, I've 3:05:57.120 --> 3:05:59.560 heard of cases where someone got served by a Facebook messenger, 3:05:59.600 --> 3:06:01.000 which just feels demeaning. 3:06:01.160 --> 3:06:04.920 Wow, that's that's so depressing. Imagine you can send. 3:06:04.800 --> 3:06:08.959 A Minion sticker with it. Oh god, horrible vibes. 3:06:09.240 --> 3:06:11.120 But I need to do a little more research to 3:06:11.120 --> 3:06:13.400 figure out if this is the first time a federal 3:06:13.520 --> 3:06:16.400 judge has had to decide whether a gab d M. 3:06:16.920 --> 3:06:21.560 Is legally So you know your joke, there's no way, no, 3:06:22.440 --> 3:06:28.640 absolutely not. Yeah, okay, well we will we will learn 3:06:28.720 --> 3:06:30.720 what gab is after I take a break. 3:06:30.720 --> 3:06:32.840 I need to like walk around for a few minutes 3:06:32.840 --> 3:06:34.320 and just process that for a second. 3:06:34.480 --> 3:06:37.840 You guys, yea, here's here's some ads. I'm just I'm 3:06:37.879 --> 3:06:40.080 just going to process that for for for a while. 3:06:51.080 --> 3:06:57.000 All Right, we are back, Molly. I hope that a 3:06:57.040 --> 3:06:58.640 lot of a lot of our listeners don't know what 3:06:58.720 --> 3:07:03.840 gap is they should on there, but that means that 3:07:03.920 --> 3:07:07.120 you have to explain what gab is, which isn't that hard. 3:07:07.240 --> 3:07:08.560 It's just kind of annoying. 3:07:08.879 --> 3:07:12.480 It's just sort of like a less functional Facebook for Nazis. 3:07:12.840 --> 3:07:16.480 Well, I think originally it was Twitter for Nazis, but 3:07:16.560 --> 3:07:19.240 now Twitter is Twitter for Nazis, but it. 3:07:19.160 --> 3:07:21.160 Has more of a sort of Facebook interface. 3:07:21.240 --> 3:07:24.120 To me, oh, I always I always thought of it 3:07:24.120 --> 3:07:26.800 as having a way more of like an of like 3:07:26.840 --> 3:07:28.000 an older Twitter uter face. 3:07:28.080 --> 3:07:31.560 Yet because it has it has like groups and a marketplace, 3:07:31.800 --> 3:07:32.280 like it. 3:07:32.240 --> 3:07:34.440 Does have groups of market But I think it started 3:07:34.480 --> 3:07:38.480 as a Twitter clone that started to a Facebook features 3:07:38.879 --> 3:07:40.119 that's mostly to like. 3:07:40.080 --> 3:07:42.520 Sort of like the evolutionary thing where everything turns into 3:07:42.520 --> 3:07:45.040 crabs boomers turn everything into Facebook. 3:07:45.760 --> 3:07:49.960 Yes, yes, exactly. It is the Facebook evocation of all 3:07:50.000 --> 3:07:53.040 social media. I think those changes were made to like 3:07:53.600 --> 3:07:57.440 to support more like a collaboration between users, because they 3:07:57.440 --> 3:07:58.880 wanted it to be like a place for Nazis could 3:07:58.879 --> 3:08:01.720 like also organize. But yeah, it very much started in 3:08:01.760 --> 3:08:05.039 like what year it was, like twenty eighteen ish, I want. 3:08:04.840 --> 3:08:07.000 To say twenty sixteen. 3:08:07.080 --> 3:08:09.680 Oh, I could pull the incorporation documents, but I think 3:08:09.840 --> 3:08:11.280 I think it's a little older than that. 3:08:11.360 --> 3:08:14.800 But it wasn't popular until I didn't get a gab 3:08:14.840 --> 3:08:16.200 account until twenty eighteen. 3:08:16.400 --> 3:08:19.039 It was in the news a lot on twenty eighteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 3:08:19.240 --> 3:08:21.720 mass shooters were using it and then their accounts were 3:08:21.720 --> 3:08:24.240 in the court documents. But it was already, you know, 3:08:24.640 --> 3:08:25.959 popular among certain sets. 3:08:26.280 --> 3:08:26.440 It was. 3:08:26.640 --> 3:08:29.640 It was certainly around for a while. Their logo is 3:08:29.680 --> 3:08:30.200 a frog. 3:08:30.280 --> 3:08:33.200 I'm sure there's nothing I'm sure that's completely normal, but yeah, 3:08:33.400 --> 3:08:37.680 it started off as just a social media app for Nazis, 3:08:38.200 --> 3:08:40.920 almost exclusively used by white supremacists. 3:08:41.160 --> 3:08:44.119 It's a free speech platform. It is a free speech platform. 3:08:44.320 --> 3:08:47.640 It was kind of it was, I like Parlor came 3:08:47.680 --> 3:08:49.600 a few years later, which was more like a maga 3:08:50.000 --> 3:08:53.520 ish version, like Gab was for like actual Nazis, right, 3:08:53.640 --> 3:08:54.920 Whereas Parlor you could. 3:08:54.680 --> 3:08:57.599 Find like you know, like like anyone. 3:08:57.240 --> 3:09:01.280 From like mega people, conservative politicians, you could you found 3:09:01.320 --> 3:09:04.080 a lot of like Proud Boy chapters. But Gab was like, no, 3:09:04.120 --> 3:09:06.480 you were like explicitly white supremacists. 3:09:06.800 --> 3:09:08.960 There's not a lot of plausible deniability in a GAB 3:09:08.959 --> 3:09:11.240 account the way there was maybe with Parlor a little bit. 3:09:11.480 --> 3:09:13.440 Now, a Gab is still a thing, I think. 3:09:13.560 --> 3:09:17.880 Uh, I mostly use it to watch the GDL, who 3:09:17.760 --> 3:09:21.640 posts a lot on GAB. But I think a lot 3:09:21.640 --> 3:09:24.400 of unfortunately, a whole bunch of people who were on 3:09:24.440 --> 3:09:26.760 gab are just now back on actual Twitter. 3:09:26.840 --> 3:09:27.400 Or in prison. 3:09:28.400 --> 3:09:32.879 And you know, some would say that those two things 3:09:32.879 --> 3:09:34.879 and a lot of gob which is not actually true 3:09:34.879 --> 3:09:36.320 because prison is way worth the same. 3:09:36.400 --> 3:09:38.760 The same posts kind of got them to both places, 3:09:38.800 --> 3:09:39.320 just different. 3:09:40.000 --> 3:09:43.920 Yes, yes, anyway, so okay, but that's gap. 3:09:44.920 --> 3:09:47.560 I did not know that a future of GAB could 3:09:47.640 --> 3:09:50.560 be serving some could be serving someone lawsuit papers. That 3:09:50.640 --> 3:09:51.640 is something I did not know. 3:09:52.160 --> 3:09:54.600 Well, it turns out you can't attach a PDF to 3:09:54.640 --> 3:09:56.879 a gab DM, so we could run into some trouble. 3:09:56.959 --> 3:09:58.840 Oh my god, this is so dumb. 3:09:59.760 --> 3:10:02.400 So Charles Morrell's lawyers were given permission to serve Patriot 3:10:02.400 --> 3:10:05.360 Front and Thomas Rousseau via several online means. Right, so 3:10:05.440 --> 3:10:08.400 in this motion for this this permission for alternate service, 3:10:08.600 --> 3:10:11.960 they identified two email addresses and social media accounts regularly 3:10:12.040 --> 3:10:15.680 used by the group on Telegram, Odyssey, Bitshoot and GAB. 3:10:15.800 --> 3:10:18.440 I mean, I certainly would have gone for Telegram Odyssey 3:10:18.480 --> 3:10:21.760 and bit shoot are like YouTube and twitch clones for nazis. 3:10:22.200 --> 3:10:26.080 In case the listener is curious, don't go there. Don't 3:10:26.160 --> 3:10:27.840 not worry, do not go there. 3:10:28.080 --> 3:10:32.240 My god, I I have been on there way too 3:10:32.320 --> 3:10:34.720 much this week, and I have seen some of the worst. 3:10:34.800 --> 3:10:39.720 Yet it's not good on there. No, it's a process server, right. 3:10:39.760 --> 3:10:43.160 This This person who normally just like waits outside your 3:10:43.200 --> 3:10:46.119 work to serve you with papers is like now on gab. 3:10:46.240 --> 3:10:46.400 Right. 3:10:46.440 --> 3:10:49.480 So the process server contacted all of the identified accounts. 3:10:49.760 --> 3:10:51.080 And so when I was researching this, you know, I 3:10:51.080 --> 3:10:52.800 was trying to get an idea of how common this is, 3:10:52.879 --> 3:10:54.920 what the usual means are, And so I was looking 3:10:54.959 --> 3:10:57.400 through the cited case law and the motion, and one 3:10:57.400 --> 3:10:59.680 of the cases they cited kind of caught my eye. 3:11:00.160 --> 3:11:02.480 It's havelish v bin Laden. 3:11:03.000 --> 3:11:08.039 Oh him, I that name sounds familiar. Was was he 3:11:08.120 --> 3:11:12.359 the one that did that thing around like twenty twenty. 3:11:12.080 --> 3:11:14.440 Three ish years ago? Was it born then? How old 3:11:14.560 --> 3:11:18.040 I was? I was not? Oh no, I was kidding Jesus. 3:11:18.120 --> 3:11:20.959 I thought I was just ribbing you. Oh my god. 3:11:21.120 --> 3:11:24.039 Unfortunately, Yeah, Well, it is that bin Laden, right, it is. 3:11:24.320 --> 3:11:26.080 It is the It is the guy, Okay. 3:11:25.800 --> 3:11:27.800 It's the one, the one you're thinking of. So that's 3:11:27.800 --> 3:11:29.760 a lawsuit that was brought by families of people who 3:11:29.800 --> 3:11:32.440 died in nine to eleven. So last year a federal 3:11:32.520 --> 3:11:34.800 judge in New York gave those plaintiffs permission to serve 3:11:34.879 --> 3:11:40.560 legal notice to the Taliban via Twitter DM like the Taliban. 3:11:41.160 --> 3:11:42.840 What a time to be alive? What a time to 3:11:42.879 --> 3:11:43.279 be alive? 3:11:43.400 --> 3:11:43.600 Yeah? 3:11:43.600 --> 3:11:47.959 I mean yes, I the Taliban Twitter account is certainly fascinating. 3:11:48.400 --> 3:11:51.160 They're they're trying, they're trying to hold the Taliban responsible 3:11:51.160 --> 3:11:51.760 for nine to eleven. 3:11:51.840 --> 3:11:52.280 Huh. 3:11:52.480 --> 3:11:54.080 I don want to get like deep into the weeds about 3:11:54.080 --> 3:11:57.280 this particular case, but there's something seized. So like judgments 3:11:57.320 --> 3:11:59.360 have been awarded, there are seized funds sitting somewhere in 3:11:59.360 --> 3:12:02.039 the released they want they want this money, right, and 3:12:02.040 --> 3:12:03.800 so they needed to serve notice to the Taliban that 3:12:03.800 --> 3:12:04.560 they want this money. 3:12:04.800 --> 3:12:06.640 And so as wild as that sounds. 3:12:06.360 --> 3:12:09.119 There's actually a lot of similarities in the underlying legal 3:12:09.160 --> 3:12:11.240 logic here. So in both of these cases, the court 3:12:11.280 --> 3:12:13.400 is pretty specific that they're not just saying like, yeah, 3:12:13.520 --> 3:12:15.400 just like DM whoever, and it's good enough. 3:12:15.480 --> 3:12:15.680 Right. 3:12:16.160 --> 3:12:18.440 So in both of these cases, the account identified as 3:12:18.640 --> 3:12:21.440 being appropriate for service is pretty clear that it belongs 3:12:21.440 --> 3:12:23.560 to the person who's supposed to be served, and that 3:12:23.560 --> 3:12:27.240 that particular account has been used to make statements that 3:12:27.320 --> 3:12:30.560 indicate the individual already knows about the lawsuit. So this 3:12:30.680 --> 3:12:34.160 DMS the service by ADMA. It's going to be a surprise, right, 3:12:34.240 --> 3:12:35.800 this isn't going to be the first time you're hearing 3:12:35.800 --> 3:12:39.080 about this, Like the court knows that you know, okay, 3:12:39.120 --> 3:12:40.920 which I just need to see the red receipt that 3:12:41.000 --> 3:12:41.280 you know. 3:12:41.640 --> 3:12:42.480 Uha, got it. 3:12:44.879 --> 3:12:46.640 So in the case of the Taliban, the court notes 3:12:46.640 --> 3:12:49.800 that the accounts had previously published press releases related to 3:12:49.959 --> 3:12:52.200 the funds at issue in the underlying litigation. So it's 3:12:52.240 --> 3:12:57.199 like they they're posting about it. They know they're certainly 3:12:57.280 --> 3:13:01.440 posting the talent. The Taliban is posting about the funds, okay. 3:13:02.040 --> 3:13:04.760 So in this case it's Russeau's bravado biting him in 3:13:04.800 --> 3:13:05.840 the ass, right, and he. 3:13:06.040 --> 3:13:08.240 Loves and he loves posting my God. 3:13:08.680 --> 3:13:10.760 And the judge specifically refers to the fact that they 3:13:10.800 --> 3:13:13.520 posted the video of the incident the day the suit 3:13:13.640 --> 3:13:15.640 was filed, which indicates actual knowledge. 3:13:15.760 --> 3:13:19.320 Yes, which is also a very interesting legal move on 3:13:19.400 --> 3:13:21.000 the part of Russo. 3:13:21.720 --> 3:13:23.960 Like the judge is reading your posts and he doesn't 3:13:23.959 --> 3:13:24.560 think they're good. 3:13:25.360 --> 3:13:26.320 Oh my god. 3:13:26.959 --> 3:13:29.680 Uh, nothing more scary than having to read out your 3:13:29.720 --> 3:13:31.240 posts to a federal judge. 3:13:31.320 --> 3:13:33.760 Jesus Christ post every day like a judge is going 3:13:33.800 --> 3:13:37.680 to read them over your shoulder, right, Yes, So they're 3:13:37.680 --> 3:13:40.120 just like randomly and for totally unrelated reasons, posting this 3:13:40.200 --> 3:13:42.400 thirteen month old video the day of the lawsuit gets filed. 3:13:42.400 --> 3:13:45.760 The judgeesn't buy that fast. Again, a fascinating legal move. 3:13:47.440 --> 3:13:49.160 And so back to the Richmond case, right, we're still 3:13:49.160 --> 3:13:51.880 talking about service. And so the Richmond Keys, because it 3:13:51.920 --> 3:13:54.840 was filed first, maybe they weren't expecting to get sued. 3:13:55.280 --> 3:13:57.680 And because more of those plaintiffs were actually identified by 3:13:57.720 --> 3:14:00.840 anti fascist researchers, they actually had managed to serve most 3:14:00.840 --> 3:14:03.640 of their defendants. They found Thomas Dale, Nathan Noyce, aident Tradinnick, 3:14:03.640 --> 3:14:07.039 and Daniel Cherecci at their homes. A private investigator tracks 3:14:07.120 --> 3:14:09.720 Jacob Brown down hiding at a home owned by his 3:14:09.800 --> 3:14:12.480 mother in upstate New York. William Ring was. 3:14:12.480 --> 3:14:17.000 Actually sorry, god, what a bunch of losers. 3:14:18.320 --> 3:14:20.760 But William Ring was actually the easiest defendant to find. 3:14:21.320 --> 3:14:24.880 His papers were actually handed to someone to give to him. 3:14:25.000 --> 3:14:27.360 But this person was authorized to receive those papers because 3:14:27.400 --> 3:14:30.160 they were a corrections officer at the Fayette County Prison 3:14:30.160 --> 3:14:34.879 in Pennsylvania. Ah Ring was a guest up there serving 3:14:34.920 --> 3:14:37.039 a sentence for beating a man over the head with 3:14:37.120 --> 3:14:38.560 a baseball bat wrapped. 3:14:38.240 --> 3:14:39.000 In barbed wire. 3:14:39.640 --> 3:14:40.880 Hmm, curious. 3:14:41.800 --> 3:14:44.879 It was an altercation over refrigerator. It's very unclear. 3:14:45.000 --> 3:14:46.000 Oh, that's so sad. 3:14:46.160 --> 3:14:49.000 I thought it was gonna be like some horrible racist assault, 3:14:49.080 --> 3:14:51.160 and there could be an element of racism in this. 3:14:51.280 --> 3:14:52.240 I'm not familiar with the case. 3:14:52.320 --> 3:14:55.080 No, don't worry, Garrison. He was there for a second 3:14:55.080 --> 3:14:58.760 defense that occurred around the same time, but separately separate counties, 3:14:58.800 --> 3:15:02.240 even where he punched a child in the face after 3:15:02.320 --> 3:15:04.279 telling her to go back to Mexico. 3:15:04.480 --> 3:15:07.440 Okay, there, we see that. That is what I That's 3:15:07.440 --> 3:15:08.280 what I was expecting. 3:15:08.320 --> 3:15:09.879 All right, Yeah, that sounds about right. 3:15:10.520 --> 3:15:10.680 Man. 3:15:10.920 --> 3:15:14.080 It does suck that sending Nazis to prison also has 3:15:14.160 --> 3:15:16.400 so many negative consequences. 3:15:16.760 --> 3:15:17.480 To fix the. 3:15:17.360 --> 3:15:20.200 Furthering of the White Premaces project is really reliant on 3:15:20.240 --> 3:15:22.640 there being Nazis in prison, and it sucks that that 3:15:22.760 --> 3:15:25.520 is such an organizational hub of them, because these people 3:15:25.560 --> 3:15:27.160 should not be around other people. 3:15:27.840 --> 3:15:29.680 Ah man, Yeah, just. 3:15:29.640 --> 3:15:32.040 As an interesting assidne In both of those criminal cases. 3:15:32.080 --> 3:15:34.879 He hired a guy I've seen before. Very interesting. His 3:15:34.959 --> 3:15:37.200 name is Josh Smith. He was the lawyer that Matt 3:15:37.240 --> 3:15:40.400 Heinbach hired to represent him in the sins vy Kesler 3:15:40.400 --> 3:15:43.000 case a few years ago. Man, he's interesting to see 3:15:43.000 --> 3:15:43.800 an old friend again. 3:15:44.200 --> 3:15:47.400 Man with the most real name, Josh Smith. Oh, it's 3:15:47.480 --> 3:15:50.280 because it's not his real name. That's well, there we go. 3:15:51.040 --> 3:15:53.160 He was he was born Daniel Nussbaum. 3:15:53.959 --> 3:15:58.800 Of course, of course he was. I I clocked that immediately. Wow. Good, 3:15:59.000 --> 3:15:59.480 good for me. 3:15:59.680 --> 3:16:02.840 Yea, he was raised Jewish. But now he's a Holocaust 3:16:02.879 --> 3:16:03.640 and I are, Oh what. 3:16:03.680 --> 3:16:08.840 This is so sad? Oh my god, he joined to 3:16:09.000 --> 3:16:15.320 not see gay. Yeah, what the fuck? Oh god, he's like, 3:16:15.480 --> 3:16:19.560 I have to pick a wider name. Josh Smith. Wow, 3:16:20.040 --> 3:16:20.800 what a loser. 3:16:22.360 --> 3:16:25.720 He's not a very good lawyer either. His perform his 3:16:25.800 --> 3:16:28.199 performance in the science case with some of the strangest 3:16:28.240 --> 3:16:30.920 courtroom behavior I've ever seen. Like the judge had to 3:16:30.959 --> 3:16:33.480 keep reminding him of like you can't like that's not 3:16:33.560 --> 3:16:35.040 the law, Like you can't just say stuff. 3:16:35.400 --> 3:16:39.920 I love a courtroom behavior being described as strange. 3:16:40.120 --> 3:16:42.320 Like when the judge has to repeatedly remind you, like 3:16:42.840 --> 3:16:46.240 how the law works, like how making motions works, like 3:16:46.560 --> 3:16:50.320 you can't just yell stuff. It was a rough trial 3:16:50.360 --> 3:16:53.680 for him. His client does oh millions of dollars. 3:16:53.720 --> 3:16:55.400 He's the reverse Saul Goodman. 3:16:55.480 --> 3:17:03.040 Oh my gosh, Jesus Christ. 3:17:00.280 --> 3:17:02.880 Having hired him for his criminal cases and is in prison. 3:17:03.600 --> 3:17:05.720 But he didn't hire him to represent him in this 3:17:05.840 --> 3:17:09.840 lawsuit because he didn't get a lawyer and he defaulted. Wow, 3:17:09.920 --> 3:17:11.600 And so he if you default on a case, it 3:17:11.680 --> 3:17:14.120 means you're not allowed to participate anymore. And so the 3:17:14.160 --> 3:17:16.400 case is going to keep going and maybe you get 3:17:16.400 --> 3:17:19.040 found liable, but like you don't get to participate anymore. 3:17:19.080 --> 3:17:21.400 So when it's over, if you're liable, like that's kind 3:17:21.400 --> 3:17:21.640 of fun. 3:17:21.920 --> 3:17:24.760 Fuck you, huh. 3:17:24.800 --> 3:17:27.600 And so Thomas Rousseau, Jacob Brown, and Patriot Front are 3:17:27.640 --> 3:17:30.840 also defaulted in that lawsuit. But the other guys, the 3:17:30.959 --> 3:17:35.000 other guys got a lawyer. They hired another guy we've 3:17:35.040 --> 3:17:38.279 seen before. His name is Glenn Allen. He's a Maryland 3:17:38.280 --> 3:17:40.480 based attorney who lost his job as counsel for the 3:17:40.480 --> 3:17:43.360 Baltimore Police Department after the SPLC identified him as a 3:17:43.360 --> 3:17:47.040 longtime member of the old school neo Nazi group National Alliance. 3:17:47.400 --> 3:17:50.440 Wow huh. Curious said that the police would have an 3:17:50.480 --> 3:17:51.080 Uzi lawyer. 3:17:51.160 --> 3:17:54.080 That's weird. Surely there's nothing to interrogate there. 3:17:54.600 --> 3:17:56.560 No, there's nothing weird going on in Baltimore at the 3:17:56.560 --> 3:17:57.520 police department at all. 3:17:57.720 --> 3:18:00.920 It is certainly funny that they just hired the old 3:18:01.040 --> 3:18:03.800 police Nazi lawyer for their Nazi club. 3:18:05.400 --> 3:18:05.680 Lawyer. 3:18:05.920 --> 3:18:08.800 Who's Who's someone who's been fighting from the police from 3:18:08.800 --> 3:18:09.640 being a Nazi. 3:18:10.920 --> 3:18:13.120 So he's been keeping pretty busy the last few years. 3:18:13.160 --> 3:18:15.000 He's spent a couple of years trying to sue the 3:18:15.080 --> 3:18:18.640 SPLC for saying true stuff about him being a member. 3:18:18.480 --> 3:18:19.320 Of National Alliance. 3:18:19.360 --> 3:18:22.640 It didn't work out, didn't work out, and he currently 3:18:22.720 --> 3:18:26.000 represents Warren Baylong in a doomed appeal of a previously 3:18:26.040 --> 3:18:29.320 dismiss lawsuit against the City of Charlottesville, who're failing to 3:18:29.320 --> 3:18:31.280 protect his right to have a good time at Unite 3:18:31.280 --> 3:18:31.560 the Right. 3:18:33.760 --> 3:18:33.880 Uh. 3:18:35.160 --> 3:18:36.240 Well, it's so. 3:18:36.280 --> 3:18:38.160 It's sort of I don't know, it's like feels a 3:18:38.160 --> 3:18:40.680 little slapstick, right, Like we're just like throwing characters in 3:18:40.760 --> 3:18:44.240 there we've got We've got the formerly Jewish Holocaust deny 3:18:44.240 --> 3:18:46.199 your Nazi. We've got the guy in prison for punching 3:18:46.200 --> 3:18:48.840 a little girl. Oh, the girl he told to go 3:18:48.879 --> 3:18:51.840 back to Mexico is Puerto Rican. I don't know that 3:18:51.840 --> 3:18:54.560 that matters to him. But she, she can't, she can't 3:18:54.600 --> 3:18:55.560 go back to Mexico. 3:18:57.160 --> 3:19:01.599 Not being racist. Challenge level impossible. 3:19:02.720 --> 3:19:04.680 We're just like throwing characters in here. We gotta know 3:19:04.800 --> 3:19:09.480 it is. It is very curtoonish. Yeah, but here we 3:19:09.520 --> 3:19:10.119 are at the end. 3:19:10.280 --> 3:19:12.280 Right, I've taken up a lot of your time to 3:19:12.280 --> 3:19:13.880 take care of us and telling you my little story. 3:19:13.879 --> 3:19:18.120 But what happens now? Right, there's three live cases. They're starting, 3:19:18.320 --> 3:19:21.279 they're starting to crawl forward now that the judges agreed 3:19:21.320 --> 3:19:24.080 that you can serve them. I'm so excited for discovery. 3:19:24.280 --> 3:19:28.440 My god, it's gonna be a treat. It's for me anyway, 3:19:28.480 --> 3:19:32.480 I'm getting the documents now. Obviously, the plaintiff's goal here 3:19:32.640 --> 3:19:35.800 is recovery of damages. That's what the law allows for. 3:19:35.879 --> 3:19:38.400 They can they sue because they want to recover damages, 3:19:38.440 --> 3:19:40.720 and I wish them well in them. I'm not like 3:19:40.840 --> 3:19:43.080 holding my breath. I think we can get some idea 3:19:43.080 --> 3:19:44.800 of what to expect here by looking back at the 3:19:45.000 --> 3:19:47.520 Signs by Kessler lawsuit against the United the Right organizers. 3:19:47.520 --> 3:19:50.920 It took four years to get to trial. Discovery was 3:19:50.959 --> 3:19:54.080 stymied by guys dropping their phones in toilets, So we're. 3:19:54.000 --> 3:19:54.879 Just showing up. 3:19:55.240 --> 3:19:57.800 I'm sure a lot of what these lawyers are doing 3:19:58.120 --> 3:20:02.160 are collaborating with defendants to make as a little come 3:20:02.160 --> 3:20:05.360 out and discovery as possible, because that is beyond the 3:20:05.400 --> 3:20:07.680 actual court case. The thing that could actually be most 3:20:07.760 --> 3:20:11.480 damaging to them is discovery like that, that is the 3:20:11.520 --> 3:20:14.480 actual thing. So I'm sure they're using all this extra 3:20:14.560 --> 3:20:18.680 time when they're avoiding recognizing the lawsuit to try to 3:20:18.720 --> 3:20:21.800 tidy up any dirty laundry they may have in a 3:20:21.800 --> 3:20:23.080 semi legal fashion. 3:20:23.760 --> 3:20:26.600 Well, they can't do that, and so I'm not going 3:20:26.640 --> 3:20:30.680 to accuse anyone of a crime. Right, destruction of evidence 3:20:30.720 --> 3:20:33.680 is not allowed. It's called spoliation. Right, So once you 3:20:33.760 --> 3:20:36.640 have actual knowledge that you're being sued, you are no 3:20:36.720 --> 3:20:39.000 longer allowed to destroy anything that might be discoverable. 3:20:39.240 --> 3:20:41.400 Do people still do it? Sure? They always? 3:20:42.400 --> 3:20:42.560 No? 3:20:43.560 --> 3:20:45.640 Am I implying that anyone is committing a crime at 3:20:45.640 --> 3:20:50.879 this juncture. Legally, no, we'll see. But you know, looking 3:20:50.879 --> 3:20:53.840 back at scigns, I don't think anybody's going to squeeze 3:20:53.840 --> 3:20:55.360 a few million out of any of those guys, right, 3:20:55.400 --> 3:20:57.160 Like they were found liable, but they're not going to 3:20:57.240 --> 3:21:00.760 pay right, And Thomas Rousseau started running his club for 3:21:00.840 --> 3:21:03.280 friendless boys right out of high school. He doesn't have 3:21:03.280 --> 3:21:05.920 a job, he doesn't have assets. He's not going to 3:21:06.040 --> 3:21:09.600 pay anybody any money. But what it can do is 3:21:09.640 --> 3:21:12.520 slow them down. They have to get lawyers, they have 3:21:12.560 --> 3:21:15.840 to show up in court, they have to participate in discovery. 3:21:15.959 --> 3:21:19.040 We've already seen plenty of leaked coms and internal planning documents, 3:21:19.560 --> 3:21:22.520 but now those documents and more will be entered into 3:21:22.560 --> 3:21:23.200 the court record. 3:21:23.320 --> 3:21:23.480 Right. 3:21:23.560 --> 3:21:26.800 So you know, researchers like you and I, we put 3:21:26.800 --> 3:21:28.640 out information all the time and people see it and 3:21:28.680 --> 3:21:32.440 it makes a difference. But when something comes in with 3:21:32.480 --> 3:21:35.600 sort of the impromatuur of the court's legitimacy, like once 3:21:35.600 --> 3:21:37.640 you put a bait's number on that bad boy, they 3:21:37.680 --> 3:21:39.280 could put it on the news, the real news where 3:21:39.280 --> 3:21:40.039 normal people see it. 3:21:40.080 --> 3:21:45.760 Right, yesh, your like niche, not your niche like no 3:21:45.920 --> 3:21:48.600 blogs the site that like twelve people check it. 3:21:48.520 --> 3:21:51.520 On right, So like your mom watching Matt Out is 3:21:51.560 --> 3:21:54.360 going to see this, where like she's not reading Unicorn Riot. 3:21:54.680 --> 3:21:56.880 So this will put this information in front of more people, 3:21:57.320 --> 3:22:01.760 will have more legitimacy. But I think the biggest impact 3:22:02.120 --> 3:22:04.600 this is going to have is on the willingness of 3:22:04.720 --> 3:22:07.480 potential members and current members to participate. 3:22:07.560 --> 3:22:10.000 Right. Yeah, it makes things way more risky for people 3:22:10.480 --> 3:22:12.320 wanting to do this sort of stuff. 3:22:12.160 --> 3:22:14.560 Like, maybe you're gonna think twice about your group mandated 3:22:14.640 --> 3:22:17.280 racial intimidation now that you know you. 3:22:17.320 --> 3:22:18.200 Might have to pay for that. 3:22:18.560 --> 3:22:21.840 Yeah, you know, maybe joining looks a little less appealing. 3:22:22.600 --> 3:22:24.720 You know, it's hard to be optimistic about relying on 3:22:24.760 --> 3:22:27.760 the courts to meaningfully undermine white supremacist organizing. 3:22:27.959 --> 3:22:29.960 Sure, but it's worth a shot to gum up the 3:22:30.000 --> 3:22:31.240 works with whatever tools you have. 3:22:31.640 --> 3:22:35.920 Absolutely, I may not believe in like the law system 3:22:36.080 --> 3:22:39.920 TM as this as this like universally good thing, or 3:22:39.920 --> 3:22:41.959 even like a like a like a valid thing, but 3:22:42.040 --> 3:22:49.720 I'm certainly willing to have it severely inconvenience my ontological enemies. 3:22:50.240 --> 3:22:52.520 Like is it the best solution? 3:22:53.000 --> 3:22:53.120 No? 3:22:53.400 --> 3:22:56.440 Is it a solution? Maybe not at all, But it's 3:22:56.480 --> 3:22:57.000 worth a shot. 3:22:57.280 --> 3:22:59.680 It'll be you know, I'm gonna enjoy reading the documents 3:22:59.680 --> 3:23:00.600 either way. 3:23:00.640 --> 3:23:04.880 Absolutely, No, that is. I am extremely intrigued to see 3:23:04.879 --> 3:23:08.240 what will come out uh in discovery, and I wish 3:23:08.280 --> 3:23:14.520 these people only the worst. So well, Mollie, that was 3:23:14.560 --> 3:23:19.000 that was fantastic. That was extremely informative. You know, I 3:23:19.400 --> 3:23:21.720 always think it's impossible to find new ways to laugh 3:23:21.760 --> 3:23:24.200 at Patriot Front, Yet here here we are. 3:23:25.520 --> 3:23:28.120 Imagine opening that DM. I wish they had record, they 3:23:28.200 --> 3:23:29.840 record everything. I wish they'd been recording that. 3:23:30.120 --> 3:23:33.880 God, that'd be funny. Yeah, imagine getting served via GAB. 3:23:33.920 --> 3:23:37.480 I would just get you know, I I shouldn't say 3:23:37.480 --> 3:23:43.840 that anyway. Well, where can people find you online, Molly? 3:23:44.000 --> 3:23:45.920 Besides on our show? 3:23:45.959 --> 3:23:48.720 Now, I know, I'm very excited to be here. 3:23:49.040 --> 3:23:52.039 You can find me on Twitter at Socialist dog mom 3:23:52.040 --> 3:23:54.160 my name I chose as a little joke before I 3:23:54.240 --> 3:23:55.959 realized it was going to be my job. 3:23:56.360 --> 3:23:58.280 That is. That is the same That is the same 3:23:58.280 --> 3:24:01.039 thing with my Twitter presence. So we are we are 3:24:01.040 --> 3:24:02.080 in the same boat there. 3:24:04.160 --> 3:24:06.240 Yeah, you mostly just find me on Twitter. You can 3:24:06.280 --> 3:24:09.680 find me on my my ghost newsletter. It's like substack, 3:24:09.760 --> 3:24:12.520 but there's less nazis there. It's called the Devil's advocates. 3:24:12.520 --> 3:24:14.280 There's a link to it on my Twitter I post 3:24:14.320 --> 3:24:18.039 about what happens when you take white supremacy to court. 3:24:19.840 --> 3:24:22.920 Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Molly. We will we 3:24:22.959 --> 3:24:26.400 will talk again soon to learn about I'm sure even 3:24:26.680 --> 3:24:30.080 even new and more more ridiculous things that you have 3:24:30.160 --> 3:24:33.360 stumbled across by reading these documents. I am too adhd 3:24:33.440 --> 3:24:33.840 to look. 3:24:33.720 --> 3:24:51.879 At it only ever gets worse, Garrison, Welcome to the 3:24:51.959 --> 3:24:55.680 very special lunar New Year's episode of vikadap Here. I'm 3:24:55.720 --> 3:24:58.879 your host, Mia Wong, and today we're talking about China, 3:24:59.160 --> 3:25:02.200 and more specifically, we are talking about the Chinese state 3:25:02.280 --> 3:25:05.680 and the persistent question that haunts American national security experts 3:25:05.680 --> 3:25:10.960 and leftists on social media alike, is China maoist? Now, 3:25:11.000 --> 3:25:13.560 if you, gentle listener, are not embroiled in a kind 3:25:13.560 --> 3:25:16.760 of running turf war with American China watchers like I am, 3:25:17.440 --> 3:25:20.680 you may rightly be asking, wait, what people actually believe this? 3:25:21.040 --> 3:25:25.320 And the answer, unfortunately is yes, yes they do. And 3:25:25.360 --> 3:25:29.280 those people get to write in major media outlets. Here's 3:25:29.320 --> 3:25:32.200 the New York Times how she returned China to one 3:25:32.240 --> 3:25:35.320 man rule. For decades, China has built Guyard rails to 3:25:35.320 --> 3:25:38.600 prevent another Mao. Here's how Hijimping has dismantled them and 3:25:38.640 --> 3:25:42.400 created his own machinery of power. Here's also The New 3:25:42.480 --> 3:25:44.520 York Times. This one, I guess technically is from the 3:25:44.560 --> 3:25:48.879 opinion section. But Uh Xixiping is the second coming of 3:25:48.920 --> 3:25:52.160 Maosee Dung. Here's the Wall Street Journal. China wants to 3:25:52.160 --> 3:25:55.280 move ahead, but Sijiping is looking to the past. As 3:25:55.400 --> 3:25:58.960 China's leader embraces more elements of Maosee Dung's rule, It's 3:25:58.959 --> 3:26:03.280 people are confronting more uncertain future. Lest you think this 3:26:03.360 --> 3:26:06.960 is purely an American phenomena, here's Al Jazeera, which is 3:26:07.000 --> 3:26:10.920 funded by the government of Catter is Xijimping China's new 3:26:11.000 --> 3:26:13.680 Mao Ze Dung, which she casting himself as a twenty 3:26:13.680 --> 3:26:19.680 first century Mao. China risks arbitrary rule. Here's foreign policy 3:26:20.240 --> 3:26:25.640 the Maoist roots of She's economic dilemma. In contrast with Dang, 3:26:25.760 --> 3:26:30.200 she has embraced a distinctly Maoist socialism that emphasizes personal 3:26:30.240 --> 3:26:33.800 sacrifice for the collective good, HARKing back to the Cultural 3:26:33.840 --> 3:26:38.119 Revolution of the nineteen sixties and seventies. The British, of course, 3:26:38.160 --> 3:26:42.360 are also not immune to this Mao derangement syndrome. I 3:26:42.360 --> 3:26:45.800 guess I would call it Chi Jimping's pilgrimage to Red 3:26:45.840 --> 3:26:52.720 Mecca brings back the Mao factor. So you know, this 3:26:52.400 --> 3:26:55.760 is a very, very common sentiment. It's been a very 3:26:55.760 --> 3:27:01.600 common sentiment for most of the last dec I haven't 3:27:01.640 --> 3:27:04.160 even done some of the most common ones, like you, 3:27:04.640 --> 3:27:08.480 if you expand a little bit out from just Xijimping 3:27:08.600 --> 3:27:10.440 is the new Mao ones, you get a lot of 3:27:10.480 --> 3:27:14.000 like Xi Jimping is the most powerful leader since Mao, 3:27:14.400 --> 3:27:18.200 which is kind of true. And I think this is 3:27:18.280 --> 3:27:22.000 part of why this sort of strategy works, because people 3:27:22.840 --> 3:27:27.640 do not want to actually differentiate between different kinds of 3:27:27.680 --> 3:27:33.040 authoritarian systems. There are many, many different kinds of dictatorships, 3:27:33.040 --> 3:27:36.959 and people are just loath to actually look at the differences. 3:27:37.520 --> 3:27:39.440 And you see this. This is not just the sort 3:27:39.480 --> 3:27:42.600 of American media class thing. You see this in political 3:27:42.680 --> 3:27:46.160 science literature all the time. Political science literature, especially in 3:27:46.200 --> 3:27:48.800 the US, has this tendency to divide the entire world 3:27:48.879 --> 3:27:52.800 into this sort of neat classification of dictatorships and democracies. 3:27:53.920 --> 3:27:55.880 And as a product of this, I have had to 3:27:55.920 --> 3:28:01.760 read some truly truly appalling articles that were published in 3:28:01.840 --> 3:28:05.760 peer reviewed journals. On my absolute I don't know if 3:28:05.800 --> 3:28:08.800 favorite is the right term or the most cursed one 3:28:08.800 --> 3:28:13.000 that I ever saw was it was an article about 3:28:13.040 --> 3:28:15.880 like the read the quote unquote resource curse and this 3:28:16.040 --> 3:28:19.680 argument about whether like having a bunch of oil means 3:28:19.720 --> 3:28:23.000 that you were inherently gonna have an authoritarian government or whatever. 3:28:23.560 --> 3:28:27.119 So they have this chart that's supposed to be tracking 3:28:27.360 --> 3:28:30.280 like the quote unquote time to a democratic transition of 3:28:30.320 --> 3:28:34.560 a bunch of non democratic societies by like just how 3:28:34.640 --> 3:28:39.119 much how much natural resources they have. Now this this 3:28:39.240 --> 3:28:44.120 chart has in the same category Saudi Arabia, a theocratic monarchy, 3:28:44.480 --> 3:28:48.959 and also Hoaxayist Albania, a country whose political line was 3:28:49.000 --> 3:28:52.520 that Mao did it Mao hard enough. And these are 3:28:52.560 --> 3:28:56.160 just being treated neutraally as the same type of governments 3:28:56.240 --> 3:29:01.600 because it's not a representative democracy. North Korea is another 3:29:01.600 --> 3:29:04.720 good example of this. You see people in the US 3:29:04.840 --> 3:29:08.039 calling North Korea hereditary monarchy like all the time, and 3:29:08.200 --> 3:29:12.320 it just isn't. Leadership of the party state passes between 3:29:12.360 --> 3:29:15.640 members of a family. But that's not actually enough to 3:29:15.720 --> 3:29:18.320 make something a monarchy unless you're prepared to argue that, like, 3:29:18.360 --> 3:29:20.520 the US is a monarchy because we had two Bushes 3:29:20.560 --> 3:29:24.200 as president. Now on the grounds that that's extremely funny, 3:29:24.280 --> 3:29:26.920 I'm not wholly unsympathetic to that argument, but it's not. 3:29:28.000 --> 3:29:30.280 Calling the US a monarchy because of the two Bushes 3:29:30.440 --> 3:29:33.640 is not a very serious academic argument. It is just 3:29:33.760 --> 3:29:37.039 a joke. And that's I think, how we should be 3:29:37.080 --> 3:29:40.760 treating people, like people calling North Korea a monarchy because 3:29:40.800 --> 3:29:44.720 it's not a monarchy is not just there's a guy 3:29:44.760 --> 3:29:47.199 who's in charge and it passes to another person who's 3:29:47.200 --> 3:29:49.800 related to them. It's not just that there's someone who 3:29:49.840 --> 3:29:52.240 you could call a king. There is a whole political 3:29:52.280 --> 3:29:54.440 system beneath it, right, there's a whole network of like 3:29:54.480 --> 3:29:57.840 princes and courts and land titles and inheritances and who 3:29:57.879 --> 3:30:01.160 when who doesn't have royal blood, and there's there's you know, 3:30:01.200 --> 3:30:04.400 there's a whole you know, and the economic system of 3:30:05.080 --> 3:30:08.160 a monarchy as has changed over time. Right, monarchies are 3:30:08.240 --> 3:30:12.000 very old. You know, we now have like capitalist monarchies 3:30:12.000 --> 3:30:15.320 like the Saudis. You know, we've had feudal monarchies, We've 3:30:15.320 --> 3:30:19.080 had sort of pre feudal monarchies, but you can't simply 3:30:19.200 --> 3:30:25.000 reduce monarchy to one guy in charge. That is absolutely absurd, 3:30:25.240 --> 3:30:27.600 But people just do this all the time. Now, North 3:30:27.680 --> 3:30:30.240 Korea is organized along the lines of a party state, 3:30:30.320 --> 3:30:32.400 where this is, you know, a sort of shortening of 3:30:32.440 --> 3:30:36.360 one party state. Technically speaking, there are actually other parties 3:30:36.400 --> 3:30:38.920 in North Korea, and this is true of China as well, 3:30:39.480 --> 3:30:44.320 but they don't really do anything. And this is not 3:30:44.400 --> 3:30:45.840 the episode where I'm going to have to try to 3:30:45.840 --> 3:30:48.000 explain the difference between the United Front and the United 3:30:48.040 --> 3:30:52.000 Front Works Department. That's another time. But they are functionally 3:30:52.040 --> 3:30:54.320 one party states. There is one party that actually does 3:30:54.360 --> 3:30:56.040 the ruling, and then there's a couple of other parties 3:30:56.040 --> 3:30:59.199 that keep around for appearances, who might do consultative stuff. 3:30:59.640 --> 3:31:03.800 But even in terms, even knowing that something is a 3:31:03.840 --> 3:31:07.720 party state doesn't actually tell you a huge amount about 3:31:07.840 --> 3:31:13.320 how that system actually functions. And this is where we 3:31:13.360 --> 3:31:16.000 come to the core elements of today's episode. How does 3:31:16.040 --> 3:31:18.520 the modern Chinese state operate and how is it different 3:31:18.560 --> 3:31:22.080 from previous iterations of the Chinese state. So to answer 3:31:22.080 --> 3:31:24.279 this question, we need to start. We need to start 3:31:24.480 --> 3:31:27.200 with the origins of the party state itself and the 3:31:27.240 --> 3:31:30.720 party state really in the sense that we're dealing with 3:31:30.920 --> 3:31:32.360 is born with the Soviet Union. Well, I mean, I 3:31:32.400 --> 3:31:34.400 guess it technically creates the Soviet Union a little bit, 3:31:34.520 --> 3:31:39.199 but it's it's born it's bored of the October Revolution 3:31:39.320 --> 3:31:43.280 and the Bolshevik taking consolidation of power. On the other hand, 3:31:44.720 --> 3:31:47.119 you know, party states are not built in the image 3:31:47.120 --> 3:31:49.879 of Lenin. They're built in the image of Stalin. And 3:31:50.760 --> 3:31:53.480 the thing that makes you know, sort of like what 3:31:53.600 --> 3:31:57.280 the party states that come after it, what makes them 3:31:57.640 --> 3:32:00.840 function is the way that sort of Stalin consolidates power. 3:32:00.840 --> 3:32:04.280 And Stalin consolidates power by using the rules of the 3:32:04.320 --> 3:32:08.000 Bolshevik Party to maintain control over members of the state apparatus, 3:32:08.000 --> 3:32:11.160 even though technically speaking he doesn't he doesn't have like 3:32:11.200 --> 3:32:13.000 you know, he'd keep be doing these doesn't technically have 3:32:13.040 --> 3:32:15.000 the formal authority to do as a member of the government, 3:32:15.000 --> 3:32:17.320 but he has the authority to do as a member 3:32:17.360 --> 3:32:19.520 of the party. And this is how Stalin consolidates his 3:32:19.600 --> 3:32:21.720 power and sod walls out Trotsky et etc. 3:32:21.920 --> 3:32:22.320 Et cetera. 3:32:24.000 --> 3:32:28.879 However, Comma, this is where people make mistakes when when 3:32:28.879 --> 3:32:32.800 they're trying to sort of understand what Stalinism was, which 3:32:32.840 --> 3:32:36.560 is that they make this mistake of looking you know, 3:32:36.600 --> 3:32:40.280 of kind of projecting back the later Soviet Union on 3:32:40.840 --> 3:32:45.039 you know, onto sort of like nineteen thirty's Stalinism, and 3:32:45.560 --> 3:32:48.440 the mistake that they make is the assumption that Stalinism 3:32:48.600 --> 3:32:52.240 is purely a bureaucratic doctrine, right, It's purely about season 3:32:52.280 --> 3:32:55.200 control the bureaucracy and using a bureaucracy to consolidate power. 3:32:55.720 --> 3:33:00.320 And that is just not true. Part of Stalin's success 3:33:00.840 --> 3:33:03.959 and you know, as bleak as that like success is. 3:33:04.040 --> 3:33:07.520 Part of what Stalin does is mobilize masses of people 3:33:07.680 --> 3:33:09.920 against parts of the party and in parts of the 3:33:09.959 --> 3:33:12.120 state bureaucracy that oppose him, that you you know, did 3:33:12.120 --> 3:33:14.920 do things like denunciations to like you know, and to 3:33:14.959 --> 3:33:19.840 weaken their bureaucratic power. And this means that Stalinism is 3:33:20.000 --> 3:33:22.320 not a pure politics of state bureaucracy the way that 3:33:22.360 --> 3:33:26.560 sort of later Soviet governments are. It's a combination of 3:33:26.640 --> 3:33:31.640 bureaucratic power and also the direction of mass mobilization, of 3:33:31.720 --> 3:33:34.560 the mobilization of large numbers of people to go do 3:33:34.680 --> 3:33:39.200 a thing towards the end of consolidating power. This interplay 3:33:39.360 --> 3:33:42.440 the control of bureaucratic power checked by mass popular and 3:33:42.440 --> 3:33:47.119 mobilizations is the characteristic element of Stalinism. Both of these tools, 3:33:47.200 --> 3:33:51.879 both the bureaucratic apparatus and mass mobilization, are used to 3:33:51.879 --> 3:33:57.000 maintain Stalin's personal power. Now, Maoism, for all of its 3:33:57.000 --> 3:33:59.959 claims to be the direct ideological air of Stalin is, 3:34:00.120 --> 3:34:03.920 Maoism is Sallanism are not the same thing in sort 3:34:03.959 --> 3:34:07.880 of like Mao era or China. And you know, you 3:34:08.000 --> 3:34:12.359 can trace this towards from sort of like Mao's insurgency 3:34:12.400 --> 3:34:14.200 era through the time he's in power to the end 3:34:14.200 --> 3:34:18.320 of the seventies. During that period, China is, if anything, 3:34:18.640 --> 3:34:22.280 even more prone to mass popular and mobilization as a strategy. 3:34:22.320 --> 3:34:26.959 Some of this is ideological. Maoism is to a large 3:34:27.000 --> 3:34:30.920 extent a kind of internal critique of Stalinism that you know, 3:34:31.000 --> 3:34:34.400 I mean, like so people in like you could argue about, 3:34:34.560 --> 3:34:38.120 you know, how good were the intentions of the people 3:34:38.280 --> 3:34:40.560 who are in charge of the Chinese Communist Party in 3:34:40.560 --> 3:34:44.199 like the twenties and thirties, Right, But they're not They're 3:34:44.200 --> 3:34:47.840 not stupid, right, These people are smart. These people understand 3:34:48.360 --> 3:34:50.560 that there are a lot of problems with the Soviet system. 3:34:50.600 --> 3:34:52.880 These are people who watched a bunch of their comrades 3:34:52.879 --> 3:34:56.440 get murdered because the Soviets fucked up. So these are 3:34:56.480 --> 3:35:00.240 people who understand the threat of bureaucrat as a to 3:35:00.320 --> 3:35:03.360 a revolutionary movements and the formation the potential formation of 3:35:03.360 --> 3:35:06.240 a new ruling class composed of sort of like management 3:35:06.240 --> 3:35:10.560 and bureaucratic cadres. But on the other hand, because it's 3:35:10.600 --> 3:35:13.200 an internal critique of Stalinism and not like an external 3:35:13.200 --> 3:35:17.040 critique of Stalinism, Maoism is utterly unwilling to try to 3:35:17.080 --> 3:35:20.640 solve these problems by actually giving like workers or peasants, 3:35:20.720 --> 3:35:24.600 like any kind of autonomy or democratic control over anything, 3:35:24.640 --> 3:35:31.360 except for like the most trivial minutia of like shop 3:35:31.400 --> 3:35:36.800 floor bullshit. And the result of this is that you know, 3:35:37.000 --> 3:35:40.200 you can't defeat the bureaucracy with democracy, so what do 3:35:40.200 --> 3:35:41.960 you how do you actually deal with it? And the 3:35:42.000 --> 3:35:46.680 result is what's called campaign style mobilization. These are mass 3:35:46.760 --> 3:35:51.440 mobilizations of extraordinary large numbers of people to do it, 3:35:51.560 --> 3:35:53.400 you know, to to do a task right. There's a 3:35:53.400 --> 3:35:54.879 lot of different sort of things they try to do 3:35:54.920 --> 3:35:58.760 with this. Sometimes they're tried they're used for economic ends. 3:35:58.760 --> 3:36:00.440 This is like the Great Leap four, which is this 3:36:00.600 --> 3:36:03.640 mass mobilization of people to increase productive capacity. It is 3:36:03.680 --> 3:36:07.600 a fiasco. Now, part of this Auso was political, right, 3:36:07.680 --> 3:36:10.680 Partly this is MAO trying to use mass mobilization against 3:36:10.720 --> 3:36:13.120 the bureaucracy in a way reminiscent of Stalin, but at 3:36:13.120 --> 3:36:16.640 a much much larger scale. And the other you know 3:36:16.959 --> 3:36:19.520 part part of what's going on here is that the 3:36:19.560 --> 3:36:22.320 bureaucracy of the Soviet Union is much stronger than the 3:36:22.320 --> 3:36:27.440 bureaucracy of China, right, because you know, the Bolsheviks kind 3:36:27.480 --> 3:36:30.760 of have a state like bureaucracy sort of intact that 3:36:30.760 --> 3:36:33.920 they're able to sort of graft themselves onto China like 3:36:34.240 --> 3:36:37.640 doesn't have like a functioning government at all, Like there's 3:36:37.640 --> 3:36:40.240 no functioning central state in China when the Maoist eventually 3:36:40.320 --> 3:36:43.920 like knock off the Nationalists. So you know this this 3:36:43.920 --> 3:36:46.920 this always means that the level of bureaucratization is lower 3:36:46.920 --> 3:36:51.240 in China, but you know, it's still it's there's still 3:36:51.280 --> 3:36:53.600 that's still like the state building process is still one 3:36:53.600 --> 3:36:57.080 of the things that Maoists are trying to do. And 3:36:57.120 --> 3:36:58.520 this is you know, this is sort of what Mao 3:36:58.560 --> 3:37:02.039 is tending to check. But this doesn't work. The Culture 3:37:02.080 --> 3:37:06.560 Revolution ultimately fails, and part of its failure is that, 3:37:06.680 --> 3:37:08.400 you know, Okay, so in order in order to like 3:37:09.720 --> 3:37:14.199 stop the dread specter of like democratic election of factory 3:37:14.240 --> 3:37:18.840 councils and shit mao like cobbles together this coalition of 3:37:18.879 --> 3:37:21.200 soldiers like loyalist red Guard factions and some of the 3:37:21.200 --> 3:37:23.480 pre existing bureaucracy. And these people are these are people 3:37:23.480 --> 3:37:26.200 who end up running the country through the seventies, and 3:37:26.520 --> 3:37:29.200 that is just another bureaucracy. And through this whole period, 3:37:29.280 --> 3:37:33.560 China continues to get more and more bureaucratic. Now, this 3:37:33.600 --> 3:37:35.760 is the most cliche thing that you can possibly say, 3:37:35.760 --> 3:37:38.199 but unfortunately I do have to say it. The Culture 3:37:38.240 --> 3:37:43.000 Revolution had a massive impact on subsequent Chinese policy. Every 3:37:43.080 --> 3:37:46.840 Chinese leader from Danzhou Ping on, including Xiji Ping, and 3:37:46.920 --> 3:37:49.480 this is something that is not very well covered in 3:37:49.520 --> 3:37:52.480 the American press, but every single one of these people 3:37:52.480 --> 3:37:55.120 agrees that the Culture Revolution was a mistake. And you 3:37:55.160 --> 3:37:59.680 can see the results of this analysis in how the 3:37:59.720 --> 3:38:03.879 min modern Chinese state mobilizes resources. Now, do you know 3:38:03.920 --> 3:38:08.360 how you can mobilize resources. It's buying the products and 3:38:08.400 --> 3:38:22.840 services contained in these ads. We are back. I don't 3:38:22.879 --> 3:38:24.360 know why I'm saying we. It is kind of just 3:38:24.520 --> 3:38:27.080 me and you the listener, But I guess, I guess, 3:38:27.080 --> 3:38:32.240 I guess that's technically plural. So let's get into how 3:38:32.320 --> 3:38:36.360 the modern Chinese state is very, very different from the 3:38:36.400 --> 3:38:38.600 previous kind of Chinese state, right because, you know, like 3:38:39.760 --> 3:38:42.560 the Mao era, for everything that goes wrong with it, right, 3:38:42.680 --> 3:38:45.200 for all of the reality that is an absolute disaster, 3:38:46.240 --> 3:38:48.240 is based on in a lot of ways, what we 3:38:48.280 --> 3:38:52.120 would call grassroots style organizing. Right, It's based on getting 3:38:52.200 --> 3:38:57.400 a bunch of people to go out and do a thing. Now, 3:38:58.200 --> 3:39:02.480 the modern Chinese state doesn't do this in the same way. 3:39:02.800 --> 3:39:04.920 The closest thing that they have to sort of like 3:39:05.000 --> 3:39:10.360 Maoist mobilizations are you know, there is still a thing 3:39:10.400 --> 3:39:14.200 that's called a campaign stylen mobilization, but it's not the 3:39:14.280 --> 3:39:18.480 same thing at all as the Maoist system. So let's 3:39:18.480 --> 3:39:21.200 ask the question, what the fuck is campaign style mobilization? 3:39:22.000 --> 3:39:24.480 So I'm gonna go to the academic literature on this. 3:39:25.040 --> 3:39:28.879 A group of professors, writing for the journal Public Administration Review, 3:39:30.040 --> 3:39:35.040 in a very colorfully named article called campaign Style Enforcement 3:39:35.080 --> 3:39:40.640 and Regulatory Compliance describe it. Thus, following the literature, we 3:39:40.760 --> 3:39:44.360 define campaign style enforcement as a type of policy implementation 3:39:44.480 --> 3:39:50.400 involving extraordinary mobilization of administrative resources under political sponsorship. Now, 3:39:50.920 --> 3:39:55.000 this definition is very interesting because if you look at 3:39:55.080 --> 3:39:58.440 what is being mobilized here, right, it is not masses 3:39:58.480 --> 3:40:01.439 of people. You're not trying to do mass popular mobilizations. 3:40:01.680 --> 3:40:05.360 You're mobilizing administrative resources. And this is something that becomes 3:40:05.480 --> 3:40:07.200 very clear the more you look into the sort of 3:40:07.280 --> 3:40:11.200 literature here. I'm going to quote from a piece called 3:40:11.240 --> 3:40:15.640 Revised Blue Sky Fabrication in China by Yongdongshen and Anna 3:40:15.800 --> 3:40:21.600 l Ahlers during the Mao era. This is campaign style 3:40:21.640 --> 3:40:26.880 mobilizations aimed at nothing less than mobilizing society as a whole. 3:40:27.560 --> 3:40:31.560 While when they occur today, political campaigns are usually foremostly 3:40:31.600 --> 3:40:35.120 addressed at the state apparatus i e. Especially party and 3:40:35.160 --> 3:40:39.520 government organizations, at all levels of the political hierarchy, and 3:40:39.640 --> 3:40:44.000 ultimately at cadres in other words, the implementers of the 3:40:44.000 --> 3:40:47.880 policy goals at stake. Accordingly, Elizabeth Perry has called this 3:40:47.920 --> 3:40:55.199 transformation quote from mass campaigns to managed campaigns. Moreover, contemporary campaigns, 3:40:55.360 --> 3:40:59.240 or better campaign style politics mainly take the form of 3:40:59.480 --> 3:41:03.840 a disciplinary, supervisory and sanctioning campaigns such as anti crime 3:41:03.879 --> 3:41:09.920 campaigns or the recently reinforced corruption campaign or be regulatory 3:41:10.040 --> 3:41:14.760 enforcement or policy goal attainment acceleration campaigns. So Okay, that's 3:41:14.840 --> 3:41:17.280 kind of a lot, but I think I think it's 3:41:17.360 --> 3:41:20.240 worth actually, you know, taking this in a little bit 3:41:20.280 --> 3:41:25.160 of detail. That same article defines like the characteristics of 3:41:25.160 --> 3:41:29.119 what campaign style, a campaign stylen mobilization is. So they 3:41:29.160 --> 3:41:32.640 have a defined goal, they have political sponsorship, there's a 3:41:32.720 --> 3:41:35.840 high degree of urgency, there's a defined period of time, 3:41:36.400 --> 3:41:41.560 tightly coordinated operation, the pooling of extraordinary resources, and public involvement. 3:41:42.360 --> 3:41:45.720 So that article of the one about blue sky fabrication 3:41:46.440 --> 3:41:50.480 is studying the twenty sixteen G twenty meeting in Hangzhou 3:41:51.320 --> 3:41:53.720 where the government sets out to make sure that there 3:41:53.800 --> 3:41:57.360 is actually like a blue sky for the event. Now, 3:41:57.520 --> 3:42:01.320 this is a massive undertaking because Chinese air pollution is 3:42:01.360 --> 3:42:05.560 fucking atrocious. This is something that I might view another 3:42:05.600 --> 3:42:08.440 Fall episode about this at some point. Chinese air pollution 3:42:08.640 --> 3:42:13.000 is unbelievably bad. It kills unfathomable numbers of people every year. 3:42:13.600 --> 3:42:15.800 It's gotten a little bit better since I was last there, 3:42:15.800 --> 3:42:17.840 But like when I was last in Beijing, like I 3:42:17.879 --> 3:42:20.640 didn't fucking I only saw the sky one time in 3:42:20.680 --> 3:42:22.959 the time I was there, because and that was only 3:42:22.959 --> 3:42:25.280 because it rained. And so after it rain, the sky 3:42:25.400 --> 3:42:28.039 was blue for like a few hours in the small 3:42:28.240 --> 3:42:31.400 just like consumed it again. So in order to make 3:42:31.440 --> 3:42:33.480 sure that there was like a blue sky for pr 3:42:33.560 --> 3:42:36.760 purposes for this G twenty meeting, because China wanted to 3:42:36.760 --> 3:42:41.879 sort of show off, there was a massive, massive deployment 3:42:41.959 --> 3:42:45.440 of resources. And this becomes one of the sort of 3:42:45.440 --> 3:42:49.560 campaigns down mobilizations, and these mobilizians. You know, they may 3:42:49.640 --> 3:42:54.040 not be sort of MAOIs style mass mobilizations of like 3:42:54.480 --> 3:42:57.119 getting people to go do the thing, but they are 3:42:57.240 --> 3:43:00.640 massively intrusive. They include things like shuddering fact is moving 3:43:00.800 --> 3:43:05.000 millions of people, restricting like who can drive them what days, like, 3:43:05.760 --> 3:43:10.039 restricting whether or not you can like use like cooking 3:43:10.080 --> 3:43:15.000 stuff in your house. But Comma, we need to look 3:43:15.080 --> 3:43:20.560 at how these things actually happen. So the way that 3:43:20.560 --> 3:43:24.760 these campaigns start basically is for for the large scale ones, 3:43:24.920 --> 3:43:30.640 you have mobilization that flows basically down the lines of 3:43:30.720 --> 3:43:33.280 the state. Right, they start from the federal governments and 3:43:33.280 --> 3:43:35.360 then they go to local governments and regional governments and 3:43:35.360 --> 3:43:39.120 implementation you know, for sort of scientific stuff. 3:43:39.160 --> 3:43:39.280 Right. 3:43:39.320 --> 3:43:40.920 So if you look if for you know, going back 3:43:40.959 --> 3:43:43.240 to the sort of example of the G twenty for 3:43:43.680 --> 3:43:47.199 you know, in order to do the scientific coordination for it, 3:43:47.280 --> 3:43:50.840 you get a very very broad, sort of broad reaching 3:43:51.200 --> 3:43:54.560 like coalition or coordination between scientists at universities as well 3:43:54.600 --> 3:43:57.120 as at research institutes and government agencies, and you're pulling 3:43:57.120 --> 3:44:00.360 them all together in order to produce like, like I 3:44:00.400 --> 3:44:04.920 don't know, you're like air quality measures, right, And these 3:44:04.959 --> 3:44:07.720 efforts also can very rapidly fold in the governments of 3:44:07.760 --> 3:44:11.360 other provinces. So what does it actually mean in terms 3:44:11.360 --> 3:44:14.240 of how these mobilizations work. What it means is that 3:44:15.080 --> 3:44:19.800 mobilization is a way of moving around different state and 3:44:19.879 --> 3:44:23.560 sometimes just kind of pseudo nonstate actors like universities and 3:44:23.640 --> 3:44:27.160 research institutes. It's a way of moving those resources around 3:44:27.200 --> 3:44:30.880 in such a way that you can accomplish a thing. Now. 3:44:31.560 --> 3:44:33.960 One of the kind of defining characteristics of a lot 3:44:33.959 --> 3:44:35.520 of these campaigns, and not all of them, like the 3:44:35.560 --> 3:44:38.800 anti corruption campaigns obviously are sort of different, but a 3:44:38.800 --> 3:44:43.160 lot of these campaigns rely on scientific and technical mobilization. 3:44:43.320 --> 3:44:45.840 Both in the sense of what resources they're moving, right, 3:44:45.879 --> 3:44:49.480 you moving scientists around, but also in terms of public justification. 3:44:49.560 --> 3:44:52.240 And this is also something that's very different, Like there 3:44:52.320 --> 3:44:55.160 is ideological justification going on, but like in like a 3:44:55.200 --> 3:44:59.920 Maoist sort of like like a high culture revolution like 3:45:00.040 --> 3:45:03.760 period or even greatly forward period, you're mostly using sort 3:45:03.800 --> 3:45:06.920 of ideological like direct ideological motivation to get people to 3:45:06.959 --> 3:45:11.560 go do a thing. Here. It's very technical, it's very scientific, 3:45:11.680 --> 3:45:15.879 it's very technocratic. And one of the products of this, 3:45:15.920 --> 3:45:19.240 one of the products of sort of how technocratic everything 3:45:19.360 --> 3:45:22.320 is is that and this is something Shen and Ahlers 3:45:22.320 --> 3:45:24.480 are very clear about. There is like no there's no 3:45:24.520 --> 3:45:28.119 public comment here, right, Like the way these campaign mobilizations 3:45:28.480 --> 3:45:30.720 work is the state tells you what you are doing, 3:45:30.760 --> 3:45:33.240 and you are not telling them back like anything. Like 3:45:33.280 --> 3:45:35.480 you are not negotiating with them, you are not in 3:45:35.520 --> 3:45:38.880 a dialogue, you are not submitting comment. They are just 3:45:38.959 --> 3:45:40.879 telling you what to do. And this goes from like 3:45:40.959 --> 3:45:43.600 regular people all the way up to like corporations, right, 3:45:43.680 --> 3:45:45.920 Like even large corporations. A lot of times with these 3:45:46.560 --> 3:45:49.680 like campaign style things don't get a like negotiate a 3:45:49.720 --> 3:45:53.240 deal or whatever the fuck it it just sort of happens. Now. 3:45:54.160 --> 3:45:56.600 You may have noticed in the original one of the 3:45:56.640 --> 3:45:58.760 original descriptions, I was talking about one of the def 3:45:58.959 --> 3:46:02.200 things they have as the definition is public mobiles is 3:46:02.280 --> 3:46:06.039 mobilization of like the public. But we need to be 3:46:06.240 --> 3:46:09.680 clear about what that means so that it doesn't get 3:46:09.720 --> 3:46:13.840 confused with like maoism. So what do we say, there's 3:46:13.879 --> 3:46:16.400 mobilization of the public. It's stuff likely. So during the 3:46:16.400 --> 3:46:20.080 G twenty campaign, there were like they would the CCP 3:46:20.160 --> 3:46:23.960 would like have old people volunteer to like walk around 3:46:23.959 --> 3:46:26.640 their neighborhoods and like snatch on anyone who was like 3:46:26.760 --> 3:46:29.680 using their cooking stove. So like that's the kind of 3:46:29.680 --> 3:46:32.840 mobilization we're talking like. These these are not like these 3:46:32.879 --> 3:46:35.800 are not like Red Guard tribunals, like dragging people out 3:46:35.840 --> 3:46:38.840 of their houses. This is like a seventy year old's 3:46:39.200 --> 3:46:42.320 person incredibly nosy seventy year old going like, ha, this 3:46:42.360 --> 3:46:45.240 person using their cooking stove. You know how you can 3:46:45.240 --> 3:46:47.800 get a cooking stove that you can actually use? Uh, 3:46:48.160 --> 3:46:50.120 maybe these products and services I don't know if we're 3:46:50.120 --> 3:46:52.320 sponsored by cooking stoves, but you know we could be. 3:46:52.800 --> 3:46:54.880 There could there could be a cooking stove, product and 3:46:54.920 --> 3:47:10.680 service out there waiting for you and we're back. Now, 3:47:11.120 --> 3:47:13.600 we should also look more at some of the methods 3:47:13.640 --> 3:47:16.800 of how this stuff happens. Right, So one of the 3:47:16.800 --> 3:47:18.600 things that's happening is part of this campaign is part 3:47:18.600 --> 3:47:20.320 of the part of the plan to reduce pollution. Is 3:47:20.320 --> 3:47:22.240 they need the Chinese government wants to move a bunch 3:47:22.280 --> 3:47:25.600 of people out of out of the city right now, 3:47:25.720 --> 3:47:28.240 A Maoi style thing would just tell the people to 3:47:28.240 --> 3:47:31.880 fucking leave. The way that the way that the modern 3:47:31.959 --> 3:47:35.160 Chinese government does this is to send people like basically 3:47:35.200 --> 3:47:39.600 free travel vouchers. Shennon Ayler's report, the value of these 3:47:39.680 --> 3:47:43.039 vouchers is more than one point five billion dollars, So 3:47:43.600 --> 3:47:46.880 like that's dollars, right, that's that's like, so you know 3:47:47.240 --> 3:47:49.480 this is this is these are very expensive campaigns. But 3:47:49.480 --> 3:47:52.640 but you know this is the way that the Chinese 3:47:52.680 --> 3:47:55.280 state moves in a lot of these cases, right when 3:47:55.280 --> 3:47:56.600 they're trying to move when they need to move a 3:47:56.600 --> 3:48:02.400 bunch of people, they deploy vouchers. So some of these 3:48:02.440 --> 3:48:06.039 campaigns are using even more like technocratic means to get 3:48:06.080 --> 3:48:08.960 things done. So looking back at the article of campaign 3:48:09.000 --> 3:48:12.440 style enforcement and regulatory compliance, we find examples of what 3:48:12.560 --> 3:48:19.800 is technically campaign style mobilization. Okay, quote, for instance, the 3:48:19.800 --> 3:48:23.800 central government either waived the loan interest for corporate spending 3:48:24.000 --> 3:48:28.600 on basically these like desulfurization things to make industrial like 3:48:28.720 --> 3:48:34.240 exhaust not have sulfur in it, or cover these expenses 3:48:34.360 --> 3:48:39.440 using central environment central environmental funds. In addition, an innovative 3:48:39.480 --> 3:48:45.880 green electricity policy offered that point zero zero two three 3:48:46.280 --> 3:48:51.800 cent price premium per kilowatt hour to power plants that 3:48:51.879 --> 3:48:54.680 installed one of these systems. So this is like exactly 3:48:54.720 --> 3:48:57.360 the opposite of how a booist campaign would do this, right, 3:48:57.520 --> 3:49:05.200 Like they are these factory people are getting like price subsidies, 3:49:05.960 --> 3:49:11.760 and like they're waiving the interest on loans. Now, we've 3:49:11.800 --> 3:49:14.400 been focusing on campaign style mobilization because those are the 3:49:14.400 --> 3:49:17.320 most sort of extraordinary kinds of mobilization. But most policy 3:49:17.440 --> 3:49:21.480 isn't even implemented by campaign It's implemented by normal biaucritic processes. 3:49:21.520 --> 3:49:23.720 And this is even less booist than the sort of 3:49:23.920 --> 3:49:30.000 campaign stylen mobilizations. Now, most people, a lot of people 3:49:30.040 --> 3:49:33.960 who describe China as booist are describing their oppressive apparatus. 3:49:34.240 --> 3:49:38.560 But here they have things exactly backwards, right, Contrary to 3:49:38.600 --> 3:49:41.720 the government and socialist period, which was sort of governed 3:49:41.760 --> 3:49:46.040 by mass mobilization, the modern Chinese government is almost pathologically 3:49:46.120 --> 3:49:49.440 adverse to anything that even smells like mass popular mobilization. 3:49:50.120 --> 3:49:52.600 And this isn't to say that China doesn't have protests 3:49:52.680 --> 3:49:57.040 like it does. There are protests in China, but comma 3:49:57.680 --> 3:50:01.600 like a lot of these. You well, there are protests 3:50:01.600 --> 3:50:05.880 like there are like ecological like Nimbi protests. There are 3:50:06.000 --> 3:50:08.840 like real estate there's a lot of real estate protests, 3:50:08.960 --> 3:50:10.640 and some of those, some of these are allowed. There 3:50:10.880 --> 3:50:13.200 are protests, one of the very common forms of protests 3:50:13.200 --> 3:50:18.520 against not getting paid by your boss. But even attempting 3:50:18.600 --> 3:50:20.600 like and most of these protests aren't like you just 3:50:20.600 --> 3:50:23.320 aren't really anti government, right, Like they're not sort of 3:50:23.400 --> 3:50:25.640 like they're not calling for the downfall of the regime 3:50:25.760 --> 3:50:28.160 or whatever. They're like pissed off about a corrupt local government. 3:50:29.600 --> 3:50:32.760 But even attempting to documents, all of the protests that 3:50:32.840 --> 3:50:36.040 happened in China in a given year canon has landed 3:50:36.040 --> 3:50:39.080 people in prison. So you know, the state is not 3:50:39.120 --> 3:50:41.360 super happy about this. And if we look at what 3:50:41.440 --> 3:50:44.240 happened to mass protests in twenty twenty two. They were 3:50:44.280 --> 3:50:48.640 brutally suppressed, and you know, the sort of anti like then, 3:50:48.640 --> 3:50:51.200 even things that weren't even really that big but we're 3:50:51.240 --> 3:50:53.560 kind of antecedents of ists that attempted to use sort 3:50:53.560 --> 3:50:58.800 of maoist politics were also unbelievably quickly like stamped out. 3:50:58.880 --> 3:50:59.040 Right. 3:50:59.080 --> 3:51:00.960 There was the oppression of the student workers movement in 3:51:01.080 --> 3:51:03.960 late twenty tens. On the student sort of worker like 3:51:03.960 --> 3:51:07.280 maoist movements. The Chinese state does some sort of like 3:51:07.560 --> 3:51:11.160 limited mobilization online, you know, in terms of sort of 3:51:11.200 --> 3:51:16.040 like they have this like pr strategy thing overseas of 3:51:16.120 --> 3:51:20.040 like wolf warrior diplomacy or whatever. It's unbelievably cringe. But 3:51:20.160 --> 3:51:22.080 even then, these are not even close to the kinds 3:51:22.080 --> 3:51:24.840 of mobilization the state and the party could, like nationalists 3:51:24.840 --> 3:51:27.880 mobilizations they could unleash if they wanted to. And this 3:51:28.040 --> 3:51:31.480 is because instead of working through mass popular mobilization, the 3:51:31.560 --> 3:51:34.800 state isn't maoist, and because it's not maoist, it works 3:51:34.800 --> 3:51:39.840 through the bureaucracy. Policy implementation works by going from the top, 3:51:39.880 --> 3:51:41.640 and then if they go down to local government's local 3:51:41.680 --> 3:51:43.400 government respond it goes back up to the top again, 3:51:43.440 --> 3:51:45.920 it comes back down and the policy gets it implemented. Right, 3:51:46.480 --> 3:51:49.560 Like you know, when when there are mask like you know, 3:51:49.680 --> 3:51:53.400 mass campaign style things, they're not. They're not mass mobilizing people. 3:51:53.440 --> 3:51:57.680 They're mobilizing research institutes. They're mobilizing like government bureaus. They're 3:51:57.760 --> 3:52:03.920 they're they're shifting bureau and technocrats around. Now, I think 3:52:03.960 --> 3:52:06.240 I think there's a lot of reasons for why the 3:52:06.320 --> 3:52:11.600 Chinese governments is sort of like pathologically adverse to anything 3:52:11.640 --> 3:52:14.240 that even sort of smelled like kind of smells like 3:52:14.280 --> 3:52:15.240 male style politics. 3:52:15.360 --> 3:52:15.520 Right. 3:52:16.240 --> 3:52:19.480 One of them is that, you know, these are we 3:52:19.520 --> 3:52:22.840 talked about this before, but like these are people who 3:52:23.360 --> 3:52:25.360 a lot of these people lived through parts of the 3:52:25.360 --> 3:52:32.000 Cultural Revolution, like they saw really fiascos emerge out of 3:52:32.040 --> 3:52:35.680 this stuff. But you know, the other thing that they're 3:52:35.720 --> 3:52:38.000 that these people are afraid of is that so you know, 3:52:38.040 --> 3:52:39.960 when I say these people were around for the Culture Revolution, 3:52:41.480 --> 3:52:46.480 like these people saw the Chinese working class take the 3:52:46.520 --> 3:52:49.200 city of Shanghai nineteen sixty seven. Right, this is all 3:52:49.200 --> 3:52:50.840 and this is part of the reason why Tien then 3:52:50.920 --> 3:52:54.320 rattles them so much because they you know, they nearly 3:52:54.400 --> 3:52:58.360 watch the working class take another Chinese city, and these 3:52:58.680 --> 3:53:01.000 these are people who have a you know, and I 3:53:01.400 --> 3:53:04.760 think understand this on a more visceral level than most 3:53:04.840 --> 3:53:09.600 other political leaders. Understand that if they if they don't 3:53:09.720 --> 3:53:13.120 correctly manage situations and like stamp up popular mobilization like 3:53:13.200 --> 3:53:17.000 they could, you know, there there are worlds where they 3:53:17.120 --> 3:53:19.080 fucking wake up, thet dragged out of their houses and 3:53:19.080 --> 3:53:21.680 the Chinese working class hangs them from lamp posts. Right, 3:53:21.960 --> 3:53:25.480 that's a real threat. And this is part of why 3:53:25.560 --> 3:53:28.720 you know, they're using something that's something that's called neoliberalism, right, 3:53:28.920 --> 3:53:31.720 the disenchantment of politics. They this is, this is why 3:53:31.760 --> 3:53:34.720 the state, even when it's doing repression, operates through sort 3:53:34.760 --> 3:53:41.120 of technocratic and bureaucratic means. Now, journalists resort to calling 3:53:41.960 --> 3:53:45.080 this maoism because they're lazy hacks who are also racist. 3:53:45.600 --> 3:53:49.080 But you know, we we can see pretty clearly by 3:53:49.080 --> 3:53:52.840 actually looking at how the state functions that this is 3:53:52.880 --> 3:53:57.000 not maoism. Maoism is built on mass popular mobilization. The 3:53:57.000 --> 3:54:00.640 modern CCP is built on stamping out mass popular mobilization. 3:54:02.480 --> 3:54:05.200 This has been niked, happened here, Yeah, happy to lean 3:54:05.240 --> 3:54:06.080 your New Year's everyone. 3:54:10.280 --> 3:54:13.440 Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week 3:54:13.480 --> 3:54:15.400 from now until the heat death of the universe. 3:54:16.000 --> 3:54:18.360 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 3:54:18.560 --> 3:54:21.240 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 3:54:21.280 --> 3:54:24.400 coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 3:54:24.440 --> 3:54:27.600 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 3:54:27.640 --> 3:54:30.320 find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 3:54:30.360 --> 3:54:33.600 coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.