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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, Dick. It appen here at the podcast that we're

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Speaker 3: starting as if it was a NOL podcast instead of

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Speaker 3: doing some terrible thing like we normally do. I'm your host,

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Speaker 3: Bia Wong. This is a podcast about things falling apart,

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Speaker 3: and this is a putting it back together again episode. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I'm I'm here with two workers from Donut Workers United,

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Speaker 3: specifically at Loostar Donuts, Lydia and Ben, to talk about

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Speaker 3: unionization efforts and some really terrible union busting stuff. So, Lydia, Ben,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, thank you for having us. Super excited.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I'm really excited to have you two here.

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Speaker 3: So all right, So Blue Star Donuts is a donut

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Speaker 3: place in Portland's for people who are not in Portland's

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Speaker 3: question work, which is probably a lot of you. I

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Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know where you are right now.

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Speaker 3: So I guess the place I wanted to start with

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Speaker 3: talking about this is how how did you two get

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Speaker 3: involved with this campaign?

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Speaker 5: You know, it's actually for me, it was right before Halloween.

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Speaker 5: I went to a coworker's house and you know, we

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Speaker 5: had some drinks and hung out and she just sort of,

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Speaker 5: you know, the conversation just sort of organically led to

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Speaker 5: work and talking about work and you know, this is

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Speaker 5: messed up at work, this is frustrating us. And then

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Speaker 5: she was like, hey, like, what's your opinion on you know,

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Speaker 5: union stuff? And I actually had when I worked at

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Speaker 5: Starbucks in Texas, I had tried to unionize my location

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Speaker 5: and it didn't.

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Speaker 6: No one was interested, but I you know, they she.

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Speaker 5: Asked us if we wanted to sign a union card

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Speaker 5: or union authorization card, and I was all for it.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm very into it. So that's that's how

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Speaker 5: it started for me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So bouncing off of that, it was I would

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Speaker 4: say a couple of days before that Halloween party. For me,

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty close friends with the woman who started all

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Speaker 4: of this, and so I was visiting her and she

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Speaker 4: just kind of briefly mentioned She's like, hey, do you

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Speaker 4: know what's going on with Blue Star? And kind of

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Speaker 4: open ended question, and you know this company almost every

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Speaker 4: day something happens, so I was like, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 4: maybe not what's going on? And she's like, well, like

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Speaker 4: are you good with unions? And I'm like, oh, girl,

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Speaker 4: of course i am. I was actually involved with a

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Speaker 4: union and a previous job that was more higher end,

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Speaker 4: like government board specific instead of an individual and I

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Speaker 4: was like, yeah, it hit me what's going on. And

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Speaker 4: she's like, okay, cool, we have a couple of people

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Speaker 4: interested trying to unionize Blue Star. And I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: sign me up, Like let's do this thing. And then

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Speaker 4: at that Halleen party when we were all kind of

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Speaker 4: gathered there, we briefly talked about it and how messed

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Speaker 4: up things were, swalk stories and it just kind of

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Speaker 4: click that leads to my brain of like okay, yeah,

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Speaker 4: let's do this. So that was that was my end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems like it was a really a pretty

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Speaker 3: quick campaign. I know you all had an election. Oh

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Speaker 3: how many weeks ago?

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Speaker 7: Was that?

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Speaker 6: Likes ago? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I guess it'll be like three when this goes out. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so that that's that's a very very quick campaign. How

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Speaker 3: many people like ish are are at the shop.

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Speaker 5: It depends on if you're adding like all the satellites

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Speaker 5: and versus like the regular Flagship store. I think we

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Speaker 5: have thirty something at Flagship, which is the location on Jefferson,

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Speaker 5: and then I think there's maybe fifty one employees total.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're pretty scapared around all of Portland with one

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Speaker 4: shop in Lake Oswego, but majority of us are in

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Speaker 4: headquarters at Flagship.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's something I think is pretty interesting about this campaign

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Speaker 3: and about a lot of the independent campaigns, is that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's shops are it's shops that are pretty small shops

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Speaker 3: that are split around, and it shops that, like you

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Speaker 3: know it shops with high turnover. Now I was wondering, well, actually,

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm assuming you get SiGe turned over because.

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Speaker 4: There is a lot of turnover in the satellite shops

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Speaker 4: for sure.

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Speaker 5: I mean I would even say that there was a

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Speaker 5: fair amount of turnover at Flagship. You know, we had

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Speaker 5: a time where in our kitchen, which is the wholesale kitchen,

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Speaker 5: which makes the donut bites. We referred to it as

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Speaker 5: Red Kitchen. We had four people quit in four days.

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Speaker 3: Jesus ghost.

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Speaker 5: They didn't Yeah, they didn't replace those people. They expected

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Speaker 5: us to continue working the producing the same amount with

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Speaker 5: four less people. Yeah, but there were you know, a

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Speaker 5: lot of like poached wororker like temporary workers that were

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Speaker 5: coming and going while I was there.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, some pretty serious turnover.

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Speaker 4: That kind of happened with me last year. I was

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Speaker 4: working at Blue Star for like about eight months. Oh

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Speaker 4: it's the new year, I guess two years ago.

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Speaker 3: And then I quit.

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Speaker 4: I left, and then unfortunately last year I hit a

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Speaker 4: little unemployment zone and I'm like I need a job.

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Speaker 4: So I came back to Blue Star for about three

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Speaker 4: months and this is when everything was going on. But

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Speaker 4: long story short, Sorry, last time I was there, we

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Speaker 4: kind of had a little bit of turnover as well.

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Speaker 4: A lot of people were not great, and we had

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Speaker 4: a lot of meetings and got some people fired. Granted,

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Speaker 4: like Ben was saying, is that no one replaced them,

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Speaker 4: and so it's very much of like we have to

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Speaker 4: cover them and a lot more quantity.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so has the sort of speed ups from that

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Speaker 3: was that one of the main things that was driving

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Speaker 3: the unionization or like what other kinds of things were

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Speaker 3: like driving people into this.

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Speaker 6: There were a few things, a few main things.

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Speaker 5: Pay and inconsistency of pay was a real big issue.

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Speaker 5: For instance, there was a person in our kitchen who

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Speaker 5: me and her started around the same time. We had

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Speaker 5: very similar previous experience. Neither of us were cross trained.

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Speaker 5: We did the same exact job. She was making three

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Speaker 5: dollars an hour more.

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Speaker 6: Than I was.

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Speaker 5: And so that kind of thing happens a lot at

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Speaker 5: Blue Star. And there's one of the biggest things for me, honestly,

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Speaker 5: was the point system, what they call the point system

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Speaker 5: the disciplinary system at Blue Star. Basically, you get a

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Speaker 5: certain amount of points that you're allowed to hit.

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Speaker 6: If you go over that.

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Speaker 5: Amount of points, you're done, you're fired, and you can

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Speaker 5: get you know, I don't remember the numbers exactly, but

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Speaker 5: it's like one point for calling out of a shift,

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Speaker 5: half a point for being ten minutes late. See, there's

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Speaker 5: all these things that you can earn. Yeah, there's all

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Speaker 5: these things that you can earn points for. And it

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Speaker 5: you know, if you reach that number eight, it doesn't

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Speaker 5: really matter how good of an employee you are you're fired.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. And on top of that, with the point system,

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Speaker 4: it's incredibly unfair because you get points due to things

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Speaker 4: you can't like the thing.

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Speaker 6: It's very able.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And the main issue was traffic and crashes. If

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Speaker 4: like a car crash happens and you're stuck in that

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Speaker 4: you and you're like late to work because of it,

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Speaker 4: even when you like let your managers know and let

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Speaker 4: your team know, you still get punished for it and

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Speaker 4: you get points and that counts to the eight point total.

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Speaker 4: So that was a main part of the point system

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Speaker 4: that really really had us upset and very unfair, honestly.

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Speaker 6: Well, and it's it's very it's a very abless system.

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Speaker 5: I mean there were multiple people in our kitchen alone

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Speaker 5: that had chronic illness issues, myself included. And I there

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Speaker 5: were two nights when in the three ish months that

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Speaker 5: I was working there, two days where I had not

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Speaker 5: slept it all the night before and I was literally

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Speaker 5: not seeing straight, like I was seeing double. I couldn't

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Speaker 5: walk in a straight line like, I was not okay.

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Speaker 5: And you know, there's some heavy machinery and like some

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Speaker 5: really hot oil in the kitchen and I was like,

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Speaker 5: I really don't think I'm safe to come to work.

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Speaker 5: And they're like, that's fine, you know, stay home, get

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Speaker 5: some rest. But you are getting a point what Yeah,

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Speaker 5: so you know, a very ablest system.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and going off of that as well, the whole

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Speaker 4: thick time and PTO was a mess. And when we

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Speaker 4: get like paid time off, it won't even cover a

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Speaker 4: whole shift. We'll be lucky to get four hours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, it's it's insane really and so I'll never forget.

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Speaker 4: Like just recently, our special Christmas prize thing, our grand

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Speaker 4: prize on the twelfth day was two hours PTO.

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Speaker 6: Two hours ye, congratulations ye.

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Speaker 4: And sick time too, yeah, they were super problems. Are

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Speaker 4: like we were so hard for this, you deserve this,

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Speaker 4: blah blah blah. And with sick time, it like will

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Speaker 4: barely cover a day. And on top of that, if

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Speaker 4: you're like sincerely sick, I got bronchitis on my birthday

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Speaker 4: and I had to leave work for like a week,

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Speaker 4: And around the like second or third day, my manager

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Speaker 4: is like, okay, well for you to be excused properly,

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Speaker 4: you have to go back and get a doctor's note

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Speaker 4: from them, and to prove that you are not able

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Speaker 4: to come into work and you know, I could ramble

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Speaker 4: on like they they don't handle COVID. Well, they're like,

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Speaker 4: if you can stand up, you can slap on a

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Speaker 4: mask and come into work. And COVID specifically spread so

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Speaker 4: quickly there because people were so scared aired of not

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Speaker 4: coming to work that they would get punished and get points.

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Speaker 4: This than the other that sick people will come into

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Speaker 4: work and get other people sick. It happened, yeah, all

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Speaker 4: the time.

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Speaker 5: I mean I can think of specifically. We had a

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Speaker 5: coworker who, you know, kind of young. This was you know,

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Speaker 5: she was kind of getting her feet wet in the

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Speaker 5: working world, and she had had some issues with illness

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Speaker 5: and she came to work with strep throat. Yeah, because

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Speaker 5: she was so afraid of getting I mean she literally

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Speaker 5: was like in tears, like having a breakdown to the

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Speaker 5: managers because she was like, I can't get fired, Like

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Speaker 5: I need to keep this job and I'm afraid that

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Speaker 5: if I don't come in, I'm going to get fired.

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Speaker 5: And that's the kind of culture they create there with

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Speaker 5: that disciplinary system.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's really rough because majority of these workers

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Speaker 4: rely on this job, like this job is their income

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Speaker 4: and they can't really do anything else, and it's so

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Speaker 4: incredibly toxic there where they're just so afraid to not

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Speaker 4: come into work because they will be punished over it.

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Speaker 3: It kind of goes without saying, which means you should

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Speaker 3: say it, which is like it is unbelievably discussing to

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Speaker 3: literally put people's lives in danger because you don't want

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Speaker 3: to let someone take like a few days off because

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Speaker 3: they have fucking stripped. Like that's unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, over like peace and love to Blue Star, but

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Speaker 4: over donuts like donut bite.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, like yeah, well.

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Speaker 8: Like like I don't, I don't, I don't think.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it's okay to make like nurses go

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Speaker 3: in when they're sick, but like donuts, like this is

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Speaker 3: oh my god.

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Speaker 5: Like you know, as you know, who cares if we're

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Speaker 5: suffering as long as they make their bottom line?

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really one of those things. It's like, yes,

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Speaker 3: like they will survive if slightly less donuts are produced,

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Speaker 3: Like they will be fine. However, Comma all over here

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Speaker 3: are getting terribly sick because of all the shit that

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Speaker 3: is that is terrible.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, like I laugh all the time about it,

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Speaker 4: and I you know, my roommate and I are like

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Speaker 4: best friends. I come home almost every day from those

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Speaker 4: shifts being like you'll never guess what happened over like

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Speaker 4: the most craziest, hilarious things, and like I can't believe

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Speaker 4: this is real, Like I'm experiencing this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're we're going to talk more about the

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Speaker 3: absolutely wild stuff that happened here. Unfortunately, after we come

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Speaker 3: back from this ad break that pays some of the

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Speaker 3: bills question.

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Speaker 1: Mark, we are back.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I wanted to ask about some of the

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Speaker 3: other stuff that's been happening at this shop because everything

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Speaker 3: that I've ever heard about is just like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: just deeply weird. And it's well, I guess, I guess

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Speaker 3: one place we can sort of start. It's like it

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Speaker 3: seems like it's one of these places where they, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, it has this very sort of like progressive

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Speaker 3: eveneer around it, and then when it comes time to

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Speaker 3: like you know, like like even sort of live up

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Speaker 3: to those ideals, you just get this. Everyone's forced to

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Speaker 3: come home with COVID.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's it's so funny because you walk in

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Speaker 5: and you know there's there's pride flags there, you know,

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Speaker 5: all all of the workers are you know, queer and

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Speaker 5: cool and progressive, and you know they're supporting the Shortland Teachers' Union.

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Speaker 6: And yet you know, and this story is just disgusting.

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Speaker 5: We had a worker in our kitchen, actually in Lydia,

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Speaker 5: in an I's kitchen, who sexually assaulted two of our coworkers.

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 5: Yes, these women brought it forward to management. Management victim blamed.

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Speaker 5: They thanked them for keeping it quiet and not letting

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Speaker 5: it interfere with their work. Yeah, it was not handled well.

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Speaker 5: That was specifically the manager of Red Kitchen, Brittany Bergner.

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Speaker 5: A lot of just really like callous and inappropriate mishandling

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Speaker 5: of that situation. Yeah, and it was really disgusting.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was disgusting. And I was so so grateful

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Speaker 4: that I wasn't there when this happened, because I would

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Speaker 4: literally tour this man apart. But the thing with that

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Speaker 4: manager is that him and her got all really well.

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Speaker 4: And what I've heard I wasn't there. I heard that

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Speaker 4: there was some favoritism towards him, and so when these

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Speaker 4: allegations came up, that's when she got She mishandled it

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Speaker 4: a lot, and it was not dealt with properly at all,

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Speaker 4: and it seemed very much swept under rug kind of

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Speaker 4: very much. So, yeah, he did.

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Speaker 6: Nobody talked about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, he did get fired eventually, but eventually that's the

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Speaker 4: main thing. Yeah, it was handled right away.

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Speaker 5: And the you know, the effect it had on these

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Speaker 5: women that came forward that this happened to. I mean

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Speaker 5: I I hung out with them outside of work where

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Speaker 5: they would talk about, you know, what happened and how

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Speaker 5: it was handled, and like, you know, they were sobbing.

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Speaker 5: They were you know, their lives were torn apart over this.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's a very serious thing, as you know,

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Speaker 5: we all know, to be sexual assaulted and then you know,

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Speaker 5: to have it treated this way by someone who's in

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Speaker 5: a position of authority over you, it's you know, I

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Speaker 5: can't help but keep using that word disgusting. It's just

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Speaker 5: it's inhumane and honestly, like that's Bluestar.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, especially by a company that reaches how open and

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Speaker 4: awesome and close family we are, and then behind the

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Speaker 4: scenes they're actually mistreating their workers literally every single day.

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Speaker 4: So it's it is, it is disgusting. I have no

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Speaker 4: other word to describe it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's like someone's sexually assaulting you, and

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Speaker 3: then them not being fired means you can fucking run

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Speaker 3: into them at your job, which is like the fucking

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Speaker 3: just absolute nightmare shit. That is like the worst fucking

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Speaker 3: shit that can happen.

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Speaker 6: And we all worked in the same kitchen.

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Speaker 5: We all worked in the same kitchen, so we were

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Speaker 5: guaranteed to see each other for most of the day

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Speaker 5: every day. And it's like, you know, you expect these

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Speaker 5: women to go to work and stare at this guy

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Speaker 5: and and you know, talk and laugh with this guy

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Speaker 5: who assaulted them, Like that's crazy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely fucking terrible. And I hope, I hope,

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Speaker 3: like I hope fucking like some shit happens to these people,

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Speaker 3: because like God.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, don't worry. We got him banned from some

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Speaker 4: bars because classic thing is drugging drinks.

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Speaker 3: Christ.

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Speaker 4: So we've spread the word and got flyers, and I'm

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Speaker 4: pretty sure he's banned I know for sure too bars,

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Speaker 4: but I think others as well, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, don't get me wrong. I will definitely go out

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Speaker 4: of my way to destroy a man's life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I guess, like you know, with with

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Speaker 3: just like the absolute fucking horrifying shake going on, and

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Speaker 3: also with YouTube, like you know, people doing organizing outside

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Speaker 3: of the workplace to go after these people. It may

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Speaker 3: it makes it makes a lot of sense that, you know,

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Speaker 3: the unionization campaign has been going, and I wanted to ask,

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Speaker 3: I want to well, I guess I wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about sort of the vote and the stuff leading up

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Speaker 3: to the vote and the things that happened to YouTube,

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Speaker 3: because oh my god.

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Speaker 5: Yep, yeah, you know, we we had our vote on

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Speaker 5: January seventeenth. There were seven votes that were left unopened

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Speaker 5: that were challenged by Blue Star management. Three of them

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Speaker 5: because the employees were no longer active employees, and four

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Speaker 5: of them for honestly just like completely bullshit reasons, like

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Speaker 5: they had to get a new envelope.

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Speaker 6: You know, they they were there before the vote, but.

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Speaker 5: Like seven minutes after the cutoff that you know that

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Speaker 5: Blue Star wanted one person had to get a new ballot,

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Speaker 5: and you know, it's like, these are these are technicalities

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Speaker 5: that really should not prevent someone from having their vote counted.

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Speaker 5: And so we as DW Star, objected to six of

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Speaker 5: those challenges. The four that were very ticky tacky for

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Speaker 5: obvious reasons, and that was the week end.

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Speaker 6: That was the week of the big snow snowstorm as well.

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Speaker 3: We should talk for people who weren't in Portland for this. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so the city of Portland, this is the thing I

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Speaker 3: have heard. I am a Chicagoan, so like I grew

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Speaker 3: up in snowstorms, right, but the city of Portland, like

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Speaker 3: this is I get, this is this is this is

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Speaker 3: this is the this is the the Mia rants about

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Speaker 3: the city of Portland for about five minutes thing because

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Speaker 3: oh my fucking god, the city of Portland does not

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Speaker 3: actually substantively do any kind of like street clearing. They

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Speaker 3: don't do salt, they don't really. I think they might

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Speaker 3: have like two snowplows. And this means that, you know,

359
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 3: when it, for example, snows, and then the temperature goes

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Speaker 3: back up, goes freezing, and it goes back down below freezing,

361
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Speaker 3: the entire city is covered in a sheet of ice.

362
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Speaker 3: And this lasts for days and days and days and days.

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Speaker 3: It is terrible. I came into Portland's like in the

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Speaker 3: middle of this, like you you walk three steps and

365
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Speaker 3: you're just going flying on this ice. It is terrible.

366
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Speaker 3: It is dangerous to drive it is dangerous to walk,

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Speaker 3: it is it is dangerous to school on your butt,

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Speaker 3: like terrible. I don't know, Like if you did this

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Speaker 3: in Chicago, if the city of Chicago failed to clear

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Speaker 3: the streets sufficiently that this was happening, the government would

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Speaker 3: be would fucking collapse in a week. Portlander's you deserve better.

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Speaker 4: I personally would have preferred snow, like six feet of

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Speaker 4: snow over a half in ice, the ice over nane.

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Speaker 4: The whole entire city shuts down, and it's it is

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Speaker 4: incredibly dangerous, for sure, and the city does not prepare

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Speaker 4: for it. The city, like landscape itself is not prepared

377
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Speaker 4: for it. And yeah, it's awful. I tripped and fell

378
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Speaker 4: like three times within a week, and my room and

379
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Speaker 4: I were literally locked into our house for days, like

380
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Speaker 4: four maybe five days. We could not leave. And on

381
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Speaker 4: top of that, we had to turn our water off,

382
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Speaker 4: like it was a whole night.

383
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Speaker 3: There so many, so many people lost power, so many people's.

384
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Speaker 4: Like yeah, growth and the NLRB building itself was shut

385
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Speaker 4: down for I don't remember how long, but it was

386
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Speaker 4: shut down, and.

387
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Speaker 3: So it was.

388
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Speaker 5: It was shut down for most of that week leading

389
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Speaker 5: up to the vote. Our vote was on a Thursday,

390
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Speaker 5: and I think Thursday was the first day that the

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Speaker 5: actual office was open. There might have been some people

392
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Speaker 5: there on Wednesday, but the office itself was closed the

393
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Speaker 5: you know, Monday was Martin Luther King Junior Day, so

394
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Speaker 5: that it was close closed. But you know, I tried

395
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Speaker 5: to take you know, I in my little hatchback with

396
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Speaker 5: two two wheel drive hatchbag, tried to drive across Portland

397
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Speaker 5: to take people to the office to turn in their

398
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Speaker 5: their ballots and because we were doing a mail in ballot,

399
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Speaker 5: but some people had left it at the last minute,

400
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Speaker 5: you know, as human beings do. And we we get

401
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Speaker 5: you know, we drive across this ice and snow. We

402
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Speaker 5: get to the NLRB office. There's security guards in the

403
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Speaker 5: lobby and they say, well, you can't go up there

404
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,919
Speaker 5: as closed. I'm like, okay, uh, what about tomorrow. They're like,

405
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Speaker 5: we don't know, we'll be here, but we can't guarantee that,

406
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Speaker 5: you know, the nler B office will be here.

407
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Speaker 6: Yeah, And so I.

408
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Speaker 5: Call up our rep at the NLRB, Michael Moles, and

409
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,119
Speaker 5: I say, hey, like, what's the deal. When can we

410
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 5: drop these off? And he goes, well, actually, you know

411
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Speaker 5: you can drop them off. When we're not there. You

412
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Speaker 5: can slide them under the door, you know, as long

413
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 5: as it's the person, you know, as long as the

414
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 5: person whose ballot is being turned in is turning in

415
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Speaker 5: the ballot, like, you can't send someone else to do

416
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Speaker 5: it for you. So we go back up on Wednesday

417
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Speaker 5: and get some turned in. And you know, at this point,

418
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Speaker 5: the people who wanted to turn in on Tuesday, they've

419
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Speaker 5: got you know, they've got work, they've got other things

420
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Speaker 5: going on. They have to find a time to get in.

421
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Speaker 5: So we're going like Thursday morning, Thursday afternoon, right before

422
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Speaker 5: the vote. And that's why all of these votes were

423
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 5: you know, missing things or you know a little bit late.

424
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Speaker 5: Is because the whole city was shut down for half

425
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 5: a week, almost a week, and things got you know,

426
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Speaker 5: mess up.

427
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the fact that the City of Portland doesn't

428
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: does not like refuses to buy snowplows and doesn't know

429
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: that you can use beat juice as an anti ice thing.

430
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Speaker 3: Like the fact that the fact the fact that the

431
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 3: fact that the city leadership is utterly incompetent, like should

432
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Speaker 3: not should not be a reason why your union vote

433
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Speaker 3: doesn't your votes don't get counted. That is absolutely absurd.

434
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Speaker 3: It's also like, you know, I mean, like okay, like

435
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Speaker 3: I get like the responsible thing to do. Dream this

436
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Speaker 3: storm was to close and a lot of places were

437
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Speaker 3: fucking open, and that is a disaster. But the fact

438
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,959
Speaker 3: that the LRB is closed and all before workers are

439
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 3: still happy to go to work is like, just oh god.

440
00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 6: Well.

441
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 5: And I I emailed or I called Michael Moles again,

442
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 5: our rep at the NLRB, and I was like, hey, like,

443
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 5: this is kind of unprecedented, like can we push the

444
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,439
Speaker 5: vote out like a week just to make sure that

445
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 5: everyone can safely get their ballots in? And he told me,

446
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 5: in no uncertain terms that we would not be doing that.

447
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 5: He gave me this, you know, long speech about how

448
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 5: hard it is, how difficult it is, how you know,

449
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 5: we have to get all these permissions. And you know,

450
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 5: I'm fairly new to all the legal avenues and legal

451
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 5: parts of union and stuff, and so I didn't really

452
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 5: have a counter argument. So I was just like, you know,

453
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 5: throw my hands up, Okay, whatever, we'll do our best.

454
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: Well.

455
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 4: At the time, people are literally risking their lives. Yeah,

456
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 4: and to drive cars, they're risking their cars. They're risking

457
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 4: their lives trying to get these votes in. So that's

458
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 4: why this appeal to these challenges are so important that

459
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 4: it's not fair if we don't count in ice storm

460
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 4: and the actual you have to.

461
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,360
Speaker 6: Account for that.

462
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So like all these things matter and should count,

463
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: and that's why we're really pushing that these votes be

464
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: counted well.

465
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 5: In two of the votes where people who had quit,

466
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 5: and one of those was was Lydia, and she was

467
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,719
Speaker 5: straight up intimidated into quitting.

468
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 6: And you can Lydia if you want to talk about it.

469
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. Okay, So they I use this word

470
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: pretty loosely, but the more I talk about the more

471
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 4: it's true. They forced me to quit, point blank. Period.

472
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 4: They pulled me into this meeting where at Blue Store

473
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: they have these every thirty day check ins and meetings

474
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 4: to talk about like how you're doing and how's the work,

475
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 4: et cetera. So on our ninety day check in, we

476
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 4: are promised a raise after working here for ninety days,

477
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: but first we have to go through a whole meeting,

478
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 4: and this whole like spectrum one through five. They rate

479
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 4: you on different topics. So I come in and not

480
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 4: only as my manager there, but hr and our head

481
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 4: chef is there, and last time I did a ninety

482
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 4: day that didn't happen, it was just my manager. So

483
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 4: immediately I'm like, what is going on? This is weird.

484
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 4: And we went through the normal stuff until chef interrupted

485
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 4: and brought up my schedule. So at the time, I

486
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 4: was working two jobs, Blue Star and another bakery. And

487
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: before any of this, I checked in with my managers

488
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 4: and chef to make sure that this was possible and

489
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 4: okay to put me from full time to part time

490
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 4: at Blue Star. And there they were thrilled. They were like, oh,

491
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: that's so great for you. Congratulations. Yes, we can totally

492
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 4: work with you. This is not a problem at all.

493
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 4: I'm like, okay, great, awesome. And so they brought up

494
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 4: my schedule and they're like, so we're gonna change some

495
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 4: things with Red Kitchen and we're going to change production

496
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: times and we're gonna bump everything up a couple hours.

497
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 4: Totally fine, Okay, I get it. And I said I'm like, okay, well,

498
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 4: you know I work until one pm, so you know

499
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 4: I'm not available to be here until like two. And

500
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 4: apparently that was an issue because my schedule, my availability

501
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: is no longer working for them, which doesn't make sense

502
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 4: because a closing shift still exists. And I'm I told them,

503
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 4: I'm like, you can use me. I am part time,

504
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 4: you can use me for like four hours closing, Like

505
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 4: I am okay with that, and they shut me down.

506
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 4: Chef kind of clicked her teeth and was like, you know,

507
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 4: that's not really worth it for us, and what are

508
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 4: you doing over the holidays because this is right before

509
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 4: our Christmas break and I I was kind of confused.

510
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, nothing, I'm just at home. And

511
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 4: she's like, okay, well you should really take this time

512
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 4: to think about your future here with us, and like

513
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: kind of me like stared at me, and I'm like what, Like,

514
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: I what do you mean? And she's like, you know,

515
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 4: we're changing some things around here and we don't want

516
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 4: to get rid of you, we don't want to fire you,

517
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,479
Speaker 4: but you should really think about your future here and

518
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 4: really leaned in and emphasized that and kind of like

519
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 4: everyone was kind of like looking at me as if like, hey,

520
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 4: we want you to quit, but we're not allowed to

521
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: like say anything like that. And I asked my manager.

522
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 4: I was like, it kind of sounds like you're not

523
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 4: giving me any options here? What am I supposed to

524
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 4: just leave? And they looked at each other and they

525
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 4: look back at me. You're like, you know, we can't

526
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 4: really say one thing or the other, so you know,

527
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 4: we need your decision by the first and I'm like

528
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 4: what I It was very it was very tense. It

529
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 4: was very weird and awkward, and I was very confused

530
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 4: because I never thought my job was on the line,

531
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 4: never thought it was gonna be jeopardized. And I kept

532
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 4: offering them different options. I was like, put me in

533
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: front of house. You know, last year I was trained.

534
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 4: I was actually supposed to be a manager in our

535
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 4: other kitchen, but they kind of screwed me over on that.

536
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 4: That's a whole different story. Like I know how to

537
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 4: handle purple kitchen. Put me there, like I'm okay going

538
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 4: from one job immediately into here to save time. And

539
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: with every single option I was giving them, they shut

540
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 4: me down and would not work with me at all.

541
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 4: And then on top of that, they extended my ninety

542
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 4: day period and from doing that, I was no longer

543
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 4: allowed to get a raise. And yeah, like you have

544
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 4: to finish ninety days and you get a raise, And

545
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 4: I'm like period. That's the policy. Everybody knows that. But

546
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: because my ninety days was extended like probation period, I

547
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 4: was no longer allowed to get a raise.

548
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 5: And what's funny is they extended my ninety days as well.

549
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 5: I can talk about that more later, but this is

550
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 5: it's just it's just odd because Red Kitchen, our kitchen,

551
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 5: which at that point was made up of I think

552
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 5: six people, all vocal union supporters, wore buttons every day.

553
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 4: Yep, we were the most vocal people about it. We

554
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 4: wore our union buttons every day. We like everybody knows

555
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 4: that we were firm believers standing up for this union.

556
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 4: And that kind of segues into the furlough situation where

557
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 4: they all shut down our kitchen. They our whole entire

558
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 4: team are six people of vocal union supporters suddenly no job.

559
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 9: It's incredibly messed up. And we're going to come back

560
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 9: from more unbelievably messed up stuff after this ad break,

561
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 9: and we're back going.

562
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 6: Back to the votes that were challenged.

563
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 5: The other person who quit was one of the main

564
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 5: organized She was her and one other person. Where the

565
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 5: people who kicked off all of the organizing at Blue

566
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 5: Star and basically she they changed around her schedule so

567
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 5: much to kind of force her into quitting. She was

568
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 5: very stressed with school and like just the way that

569
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 5: they kept messing with her made her quit. Basically, she

570
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 5: was afraid that she was going to be fired, so

571
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 5: she went ahead and quit. And so that that was

572
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 5: that other challenged vote. But yeah, the furlough situation is wild.

573
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 5: And I also got my probation extended. I actually filed

574
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 5: a unfairlyabor practice because of that, Because the reason they

575
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 5: gave me for extending my probation was that I was

576
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 5: bringing their words on paper, bringing the vibe down by

577
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 5: complaining about working conditions. Bringing the vibe down by complaining

578
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 5: about working conditions, and.

579
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 4: This is how ridiculous this company is. Third reasons where

580
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, this must be the Truman Show, Like this

581
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 4: is not real. Where are the cameras well?

582
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 5: And first of all, complaining about working conditions is a

583
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 5: federally protected act. I can do that and I cannot

584
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 5: be punished for that. It is against the law, which

585
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 5: is why I filed the ULP. Second of all, the

586
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: reason I was complaining is because they had taken us

587
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 5: down from three to four people opening shifts to two

588
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 5: and the way two people work, Yeah, the way two

589
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 5: people operates for opening shift in Red Kitchen is one

590
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,720
Speaker 5: person is mixing the dough and loading it into the fryer,

591
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 5: and that is a constant thing. Like you you mix

592
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 5: batches for like four hours like on like back to

593
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 5: back to back to back to back, and the other

594
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 5: person has to stand at the end of the conveyor

595
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 5: belt and take the glazed bites off of the conveyor

596
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 5: belt and put them onto trays. This is a non

597
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 5: stop job. You cannot even walk away for a few seconds.

598
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 6: And when you know.

599
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 5: Typically, like the best practice that was done the entire

600
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 5: time I was there up to this was that you

601
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 5: did not do that position for more than an hour

602
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 5: because it was physically difficult to stand in one place

603
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 5: like that and do that and do those repetitive motions.

604
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 6: And two, it's like fucking.

605
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 5: Psychological torture because you're in the corner of this room.

606
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 5: You're not speaking to anybody. You're literally just staring at

607
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 5: your own hands. I mean, it's it's not like nobody

608
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 5: likes to they call it catching. Nobody likes to catch.

609
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 5: And I was doing this for up to three hours

610
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 5: a day, uninterrupted and I have sciatic nerve issues with

611
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: my leg and I you know, I made them aware

612
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 5: of this multiple multiple times. I cannot catch for more

613
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 5: than an hour at a time, and you know what

614
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 5: I was doing catching.

615
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 6: For three hours every day.

616
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,000
Speaker 3: So they're just trying to injury.

617
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 6: So that's what I was, yes, and that's what I

618
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 6: was complaining about. I was saying, I'm in pain.

619
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 5: I'm literally having to go on muscle relaxers every single

620
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 5: day because of the effect that this is having on

621
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 5: me physically, Like I I can't sleep at night because

622
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 5: my leg is so tense and it's in so much

623
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 5: pain from fucking catching these donuts and putting them on trays.

624
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 6: It's insane.

625
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 5: And so you know, they're yet they're penalizing me for

626
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 5: having the gall to voice the fact that what they're

627
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 5: doing is literally ruining my quality of life.

628
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,959
Speaker 4: Really and going off that every single issue we bring

629
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 4: up to management, they have the tone of like, well,

630
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 4: that sucks, that's a bummer, deal with it, and literally, yeah,

631
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 4: literally just like okay, and we're like, okay, fix it,

632
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: because we are human beings with nerves and bones and

633
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 4: we cannot stand on our feet for this long, like

634
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 4: it's it's wild, it is.

635
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 5: And you know that that kind of also segues into

636
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 5: the furlough thing that we were all very vocal on

637
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 5: union support. You know, I had filed at this point

638
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 5: two ulps because of the extended probation and because they

639
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 5: suspended me for three days for something that was absurd,

640
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 5: and I had filed two ulps, and this came like

641
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 5: right on the heels of that second ulp. They you know,

642
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 5: we had Christmas Day off and I had taken the

643
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 5: next day, the Tuesday off, so I was visiting family

644
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 5: in Dallas, and I believe everyone else had that Tuesday

645
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 5: off as well. And we come back on that Wednesday,

646
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 5: and you know, we're working a red deer's shift.

647
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 6: About halfway through.

648
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 5: The shift, they say, okay, you know, we're having a

649
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 5: red kitchen meeting. Everyone come into the office, which that

650
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 5: had never happened before. We never had an all kitchen

651
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 5: meeting like that. They pull us in and you know,

652
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 5: we're all looking at each other on the way in, like,

653
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 5: oh fuck, what are they going to do? Like are

654
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 5: they going to reduce our hours? Are they going to

655
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 5: fire one of us? You know what's happening? And we

656
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 5: get in there and head chef Stephanie Thornton says, okay,

657
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 5: so you know, we've had an issue happen. What's happened

658
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 5: is our distributors have told us that they are returning

659
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 5: a bunch of our product. It's you know, some of

660
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 5: it's expired, but most of it is just fine, but

661
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 5: it's nearing its expiration date, so they're returning it. I'm

662
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 5: saying that m okay, sounds fake, but okay, And then

663
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 5: they say, unfortunately, because of this, because we don't have

664
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 5: space in our freezer to continue to put product in

665
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 5: the freezer, to continue to make product and put it

666
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 5: in the freezer, we are having to put you guys

667
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 5: on indefinite furlough. You know, we don't have a return

668
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 5: to work date. We don't have a plan for bringing

669
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 5: you back. You know, we asked, can we get you know,

670
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 5: those of us who are cross trained, can we work

671
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 5: in other areas? Can you cross train those of us

672
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 5: who aren't, so that we can work up front or

673
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 5: work at a satellite store. You know, they are literally

674
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 5: hiring for satellite stores. But they furloughed us, and we

675
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 5: were asking can we do these other things? And they

676
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 5: said no, point blank no, So all of a sudden,

677
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 5: you know, six people who had jobs, you know, a

678
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 5: minute or two ago. All of a sudden, we're facing

679
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 5: For me personally, I'm facing homelessness. That's the reality, you know.

680
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 5: And we have too our two shift leads. They are

681
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 5: a couple and they live together and like that is

682
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 5: their entire income. Yeah, and it's just on a kind

683
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 5: of more personal note, it's wild. And maybe this is

684
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 5: me being a little bit naive, but it's wild to

685
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 5: have spent months in company with these people and have

686
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,879
Speaker 5: them pretend to care about me and then have them

687
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 5: do something that quite literally puts my life in danger,

688
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 5: especially because I had just signed up for healthcare with

689
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 5: them and I have multiple chronic illnesses. I have to

690
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 5: go to doctors regularly, And all of a sudden, I'm like,

691
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 5: holy shit, my life has completely changed in thirty seconds.

692
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 3: You know, this is the day after Christmas? What?

693
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, the day after Christmas.

694
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 5: We were given two days notice, gez in two days

695
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 5: starting on January first. You don't have a job, and

696
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,359
Speaker 5: we don't know how long, but you know, we'll let

697
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 5: you know if we ever are going to do production again,

698
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 5: and we can bring you back even just for a

699
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 5: little bit, which they didn't. They started up production again

700
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 5: and we were not told or called in or anything.

701
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 4: I touch a little more on our shift leads for

702
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 4: a second.

703
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 7: Yes, there are a couple.

704
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 4: They live together, but much like them, they are basically

705
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 4: they're facing houselessness as well. And luckily they do have

706
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: another roommate who can someone cover them, but that can't

707
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 4: last forever. Yeah, and just the other day I had

708
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 4: to run them groceries. They can't afford anything, and it's

709
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 4: it's a huge buck over for them because they love

710
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 4: they are so passionate about this job and like they

711
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 4: rely heavily on it, and they got their pay raises

712
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: and their higher positions and more responsibilities, and to be

713
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:57,799
Speaker 4: so betrayed like that from a company quite literally destroyed them.

714
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 7: Are lead.

715
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 4: He had a full breakdown and stormed out and walked out,

716
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 4: and it affected them so heavily and so emotionally and

717
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 4: still mentally, and they keep trying to, you know, find

718
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 4: other jobs, and you know, still in contact. Just yesterday

719
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 4: they sent me a screenshot of them talking to chef

720
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 4: and being like, hey, is there any updates? Is there

721
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 4: you know, any way we can come get our job

722
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: back because you know, we're still waiting for you to

723
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 4: tell us literally anything. And Chef said, oh, we don't know.

724
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 4: We can't give you an answer right now, and just

725
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 4: kind of brushed it off.

726
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 5: And one thing that's particularly insulting is that they ended

727
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 5: this meeting with us where they were telling us we

728
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 5: were losing our jobs by giving us a sheet of

729
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 5: paper on how to file for unemployment in Oregon. And

730
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 5: the thing with an indefinite furlough, if you don't have

731
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 5: a return to work date, then you have to go.

732
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 5: You have to jump through the hoops of applying for

733
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 5: jobs while you're like in order to get unemployment. So like,

734
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 5: if you're if you have a return to work date

735
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 5: and it's within four weeks of the uh, you know,

736
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 5: the day that you got furloughed, you can get unemployment

737
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 5: for that time.

738
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 6: And you don't. You can just hang out and get unemployment.

739
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 5: If you don't have a return to work date, you

740
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 5: have to treat it as a layoff and you have

741
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 5: to be making at like conscious efforts to job hunt

742
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 5: every single week. You have to record those efforts. If

743
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 5: you get an interview, you have to take it. If

744
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 5: you get a position offered, to you. You have to

745
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 5: take it, and it has to be in the field

746
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 5: that you got that you got furloughed from, and there's

747
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 5: all these very specific rules and it just makes it

748
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 5: incredibly difficult, you know, all these hoops you have to

749
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 5: jump through. It's dehumanizing, it's fucked up, and it's insulting, and.

750
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 4: There is no support other than that. If you support,

751
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 4: there's no severance package. There was no like short in

752
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 4: the meeting, they're like, yeah, sorry, guys, this sucks, but

753
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 4: like it just didn't feel real, like this full situation

754
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 4: was not empathetic at all.

755
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 3: And like obvious, and you know, you could tell their

756
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 3: excuses bullshit because like okay, like let let let's say

757
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 3: what they were saying was real that like, okay, they

758
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 3: got a bunch of stuff return and they don't have

759
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 3: room in their freezers. It's been a month. They should now,

760
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 3: there's no way that they now still do not have

761
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 3: room in their freezers.

762
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 5: Like what Well, and here's the here's the kicker is

763
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 5: that we were for maybe them a month, maybe over

764
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 5: a month really since we filed the union petition, since

765
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 5: we handed them the petition, we had ramped up production

766
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 5: even though we were in the slow season, and we

767
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 5: were not actually like the bites that we were making

768
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 5: were not ordered by anyone. We were just putting. We

769
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 5: were making extra to put in the freezer.

770
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 4: Not only the freezer, but they rented a whole entire warehouse.

771
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,280
Speaker 3: We have a strategy.

772
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, So they they did this, you know, I don't

773
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 5: want to say they did this on purpose, but it

774
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 5: is mighty suspicious to me that they're that they're building

775
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 5: up these these you know, bites in the freezer when

776
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 5: they didn't need them, when they didn't have orders for them,

777
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 5: and now all of a sudden, oh, we don't have room.

778
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 6: In the freezer, we have to let you go, you know.

779
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, oddly convenient.

780
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,879
Speaker 6: It is. It is.

781
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 5: And that really ramped up when they when we gave

782
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 5: them the union petition November seventeenth.

783
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is just really very blatant retaliation.

784
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

785
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I have filed an unfair labor practice for

786
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 5: it's called what they call a lockout for the you know,

787
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 5: us being furloughed, and it, like you said, it really

788
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 5: is blatant, especially given that you know, even walking.

789
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 6: Into that meeting, all of us were wearing our union buttons.

790
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 5: I just why would you lay off an entire department,

791
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 5: especially when that department is what is keeping your business afloat,

792
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 5: Like that is the money maker for Blue Star is

793
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 5: those wholesale bites, and we've.

794
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 4: Been told that all the time. It's like these donut

795
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 4: bytes make the money. So make that makes sense? Then

796
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 4: why are you shutting down that money maker? And the

797
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 4: other kitchen and front of house are like are still

798
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 4: there still during production, like not touched by this at all.

799
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's one of these things you get with

800
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 3: employers all the time where it's like, well, okay, so

801
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 3: employers very very clearly and obviously know where the money

802
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 3: is made. They know exactly where the money is made,

803
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 3: literally up until the moments that you start asking for

804
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 3: more of the money you're making them, at which point

805
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 3: suddenly like, oh who knows money comes from? Yeah, yeah,

806
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 3: you have.

807
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 4: No money, even though the CEO has like at least

808
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 4: three Tesla's totally oh.

809
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 5: My god, yeah, like Katie Pope can't take a little

810
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 5: bit of a pay cut so that you know, we

811
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 5: can all keep our jobs and you know, survive.

812
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 6: It's wild.

813
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like, and I mean this is one of

814
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 3: the other things too, is that like businesses, you know,

815
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 3: this is this is the the way capitalism works, is

816
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: that business businesses would rather fucking lose money than have

817
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 3: their employees have slightly like not be intobilitating pain, not

818
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 3: be sick, and get slightly more money.

819
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is crazy to me because this whole you know,

820
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 5: they're they're hiring all these lawyers to to you know,

821
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 5: you know, handle the union stuff, and I'm like, you

822
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 5: shut down Red Kitchen, you hire these lawyers, You're doing

823
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 5: all these efforts, and I'm like, you would have saved

824
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 5: so much money if you just recognize our fucking union,

825
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 5: Like that's how easy it is, you know.

826
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 4: And not only that, we have what five shops in Portland,

827
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 4: we have a shop in la as well, Los Angeles

828
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 4: where prices are extravagant, like they have money. We know

829
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,439
Speaker 4: they have money, and we're honestly at the point, I'm

830
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 4: at the point of show me your books, show me,

831
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 4: prove to me that you do not have this money,

832
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,959
Speaker 4: because then that would be a different discussion. Like it's

833
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:41,439
Speaker 4: just it's frustrating. It's typical corporate business, and I'm over it.

834
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 4: And the I'm over it for how they treat me.

835
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: I'm over how they treat my friends, my team. It's

836
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 4: it's ridiculous and they should know better, honestly.

837
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 10: Yeah.

838
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, So is there anything else that you two want

839
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 3: to make sure you get in?

840
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 6: Maybe just the gofund me?

841
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, how.

842
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: Can people support you support the union?

843
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, so we have a go fund me set up

844
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 5: for the six furload workers to provide a month's worth

845
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 5: of income two weeks for the employees who quit early,

846
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 5: and that is it's called Help Loose our Employees Fight

847
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 5: Union Investing. And right now we're at just under one

848
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 5: thousand dollars. Our goal for all six of those people's

849
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 5: incomes for a month is fifteen thousand, just under sixteen thousand.

850
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 5: You know, I don't know if we'll ever reach that goal,

851
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,439
Speaker 5: but you know, the as much as we can get

852
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 5: is great because right now, you know, I'm surviving on cereal.

853
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 5: I know that the shift leads we were talking about earlier,

854
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 5: you know, they're getting.

855
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 6: Groceries from lydia. People are struggling.

856
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was definitely in my Survivor era on

857
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 4: rice and beans. It was it's really tough, and you know,

858
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 4: it is a big goal realistically, it is, but yeah,

859
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 4: you know not to sound desperate, I think, but truly

860
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 4: every little bit helps. If you can really only afford

861
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 4: five or ten bucks, we'll take it. That is, we're

862
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 4: so grateful for anything. And it's it's people's lives. It's

863
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,959
Speaker 4: literally people's lives. Multiple people are facing not being able

864
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 4: to have a roof over their head because of this company.

865
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 4: So truly, any little bit helps.

866
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, so please go help them out. I I don't

867
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 3: know this it it's just really really brutal too and

868
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 3: especially like again, like this is also a fucking terrible time,

869
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 3: Like there's there's never a good time to like be

870
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 3: at risk of losing your home. Winter is especially fucking

871
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: bad for that. There are yeah, so there there's so many.

872
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 3: There are so many sort of terrible compounding things that

873
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 3: these union that these union busting companies are sort of

874
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 3: relying on to screw over and intimidate and hurt the

875
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 3: people who make them all their fucking money.

876
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 6: So well, and that's what it did.

877
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 5: It scared a lot of people into unfortunately voting no.

878
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 5: It scared a lot of people who were really involved,

879
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 5: you know, in the organizing process to step back and

880
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 5: you know, not respond to our text messages and not

881
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 5: continue to advocate for the union. It you know that

882
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 5: us getting furloughed really fucked with our whole union campaign.

883
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, go go, go, give, go, go, give these

884
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 3: workers your supports. They really need it, and yeah, go

885
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: you know, and one thing again like that needs to

886
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 3: sort of we need to sort of emphasize, is that

887
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 3: this is illegal. They cannot fucking they legally cannot do this,

888
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 3: but you know this is this is one of the

889
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 3: things that is fucking hard about union organizing is that

890
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 3: the law, assuming the law does like ever fucking catch

891
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 3: up to these people. It takes time.

892
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,479
Speaker 4: And yeah, there is one little thing I do want

893
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,399
Speaker 4: to make sure people know about because we just found

894
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 4: this out pretty recently. While we were doing shop visits.

895
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 4: They have jars for tips that say tips are shared

896
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 4: with the kitchen. They're not.

897
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not true.

898
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 3: That's not true.

899
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 4: We saw no tips, and there was an instance where

900
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 4: we accidentally got tips, and one by one we were

901
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 4: sent to the back to sign a form saying this

902
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 4: was an accident, you are not gaining tips. Sign this,

903
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 4: and they took our tips away. It's not fair. And

904
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 4: on top of that, they're lying to the public. They're

905
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 4: lying to their customers that kitchen is gaining tips when

906
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 4: we're not.

907
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I will say, in addition to the GoFundMe,

908
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 5: we do have you know, if you're not able to

909
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 5: support monetarily, we do have a Twitter and an Instagram

910
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 5: where we post updates if you want to follow along

911
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 5: with our progress and see you know, how our election

912
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 5: goes and everything. It's just on both Twitter and or

913
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 5: excuse me and Instagram. It is at DWU Underscore Blue Star.

914
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, well we'll have we'll have links to all

915
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 3: this out of the description.

916
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,840
Speaker 4: Awesome. Word of mouth is really the biggest thing, even

917
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 4: going off again, like, if you can't support us financially,

918
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,240
Speaker 4: you can just share the go fundme through friends, family, whoever,

919
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 4: and just spread it out there.

920
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so go go go do that. Yeah, go

921
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 3: help any way you can. And yeah, go go go

922
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 3: fight your own bosses because they're screwing you, like screwing

923
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 3: you in very similar ways. What's happening here two? Yeah,

924
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 3: and this is the spy nicket up in here. You

925
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,879
Speaker 3: can find us at Twitter and Instagram at happen here

926
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 3: pod and you can find more clos Obdia shows at

927
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 3: closeid Media. Yeah, go go go into the world and

928
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 3: make life worse for people who do terrible stuff.

929
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 10: Hi, everyone, and welcome to it could Happen here podcast

930
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 10: about how things are falling apart and people trying to

931
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 10: put them back together. Today, more in the how things

932
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 10: are Falling apart category. We are talking about the border

933
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 10: again and I'm joined by Gen Budd, who you've heard

934
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 10: from before, but just a reminder. Jen is a former

935
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 10: senior patrol agent with the Border Patrol and now an

936
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 10: immigrant rights activist.

937
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 7: Welcome to the show, Jo, Thanks for having me again.

938
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, you're welcome. So we're gathered here today, I guess

939
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:39,800
Speaker 10: to talk about this ridiculous spectacle of the Texas National

940
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 10: Guard occupying some border adjacent land. The border as right

941
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 10: down the middle of the river there, so they're not

942
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 10: actually occupying that the physical border, right, they're occupying that

943
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 10: the nearest land spot to it is that right.

944
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 7: Correct, The border in that area is in the middle

945
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:57,919
Speaker 7: of the river.

946
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 10: Yeah, and preventing Border patrol from accessing the river. And

947
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 10: I think, like we were just talking before we recorded,

948
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 10: but the reporting on this has been a bit kind

949
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 10: of slap shot. A lot of it have just been

950
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 10: social media posting so I was hoping that you could

951
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 10: help us understand, like a this isn't like like a

952
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 10: standoff between Texas and the Border patrol, right, but it's

953
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 10: not like Texas kind of swept in and suddenly they

954
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 10: were there and they weren't there before it. Border patrol

955
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 10: had to allow this to happen. To agree, is that

956
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 10: fair to say?

957
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 7: I think it's fair to say. I mean, at the moment,

958
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 7: I think the administration is trying to portray that, you know,

959
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 7: the Border Patrol tried to come out there and rescue.

960
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 7: I think the latest I've heard is that reportedly there

961
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 7: were six people in the river that were surrounding and

962
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 7: they went to go rescue them, and the Texas Military

963
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 7: the I guess Texas National Are ended up blocking them

964
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 7: and saying they can't go. Now, this park is a

965
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 7: very well known park that during the Trump administration they

966
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 7: were trying to build a wall. They've been wanting a

967
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 7: wall there, but the people in that city, I believe

968
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 7: it's equal pass is that they you know, they don't

969
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 7: want a wall there. That's the city park and they

970
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 7: just don't want a wall right there. And so Greg

971
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 7: Abbott has sent in Texas National Guard to put up

972
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 7: all the razor wire, all the you know, plotation devices

973
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 7: with she would call it a sal blade on the

974
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 7: middle of it that they claim saves lives. All this

975
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 7: stuff apparently is rescue technique stuff, and they claim it

976
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 7: it saves more lives than it hurts. And so the

977
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 7: people that put out this stuff to injure people or

978
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,880
Speaker 7: claiming that they didn't allow people to drown. So I

979
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 7: find that hard to believe. But at the same time,

980
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 7: the Border Patrol is the Border Patrol is always silent,

981
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 7: you know, they are always silent about this. They let

982
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 7: CBP talk to talk for them. They'll let the administration

983
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 7: talk for them. The Union is claiming that Greg Abbott

984
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 7: is the best thing in the world. They think it's

985
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 7: great that he stopped their own agents from rescuing a

986
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 7: woman and two children. So apparently three of the people

987
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 7: got back to shore on the Mexican side, and then

988
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 7: the woman and two children ended up drowning and their

989
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 7: bodies were found on the Mexican side. Texas military is

990
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 7: claiming that when they were notified that people were in

991
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 7: the river, they went and they shined lights and they looked,

992
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 7: but they didn't see anything. We did have the I

993
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 7: don't know if it was Texas military. It was in

994
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 7: the area of the state of Texas on the same

995
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 7: Rio or Grande, where some either National Guard or Texas

996
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 7: National Guard or military or somebody just was sitting in

997
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 7: a boat in front of a woman with a child

998
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 7: and she was starting to sink into the sand because

999
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 7: it's like quicksand over there, and they wouldn't rescue her,

1000
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 7: and Border patrol drove by really fast and put away,

1001
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 7: So it's not surprising that they wouldn't go rescue them.

1002
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 7: This is the first time that they publicly said that

1003
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 7: they've had a confrontation with a border patrol. But I

1004
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 7: don't think the Border Patrol tried very hard to rescue them.

1005
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 7: I mean they do have boats and stuff.

1006
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 10: Yeah they have yeah, yeah, they're there are many way helicopters. Yeah,

1007
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 10: they have lots of equipment to rescue people sometimes just

1008
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 10: let's desire, shall we say?

1009
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I mean it's to me the interesting thing

1010
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 7: is watching democratic politicians point their fingers at Greg Abbott,

1011
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 7: and rightly so for this, for this scene, but yet

1012
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 7: at the same time, what the Border Patrol does every day,

1013
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 7: their deterrence pulse these every day kill people every day,

1014
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 7: so the Border Patrol is not doing anything different. So

1015
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 7: to act like, oh my god, we didn't get out

1016
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 7: to save these migrants and we really wanted to is

1017
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 7: kind of like, well, I mean, people die probably every

1018
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 7: hour crossing that river and you haven't cured before, and

1019
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 7: we've been doing it since nineteen ninety four. So it's

1020
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 7: kind of it's kind of hard to get really upset

1021
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 7: at Greg Abbott, who's doing nothing but what the National

1022
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 7: Border Patrol has done for, you know, thirty something years.

1023
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 7: And at the same time, the victims are always the

1024
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 7: migrants that you know. That's what we should be upset about,

1025
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 7: is that our policies, whether federal or state, are killing

1026
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 7: people who are seeking asylum and seeking safety. That's what

1027
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 7: it is.

1028
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly. I think like this attempt to make it

1029
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 10: like Republican governor is killing migrants thing is an attempt

1030
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 10: to like distract us from the fact that democratic president

1031
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:00,480
Speaker 10: is killing migrants in much greater numbers just by virtue

1032
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 10: of the amount of land covered by you know, Biden's

1033
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 10: jurisdiction compared to Abbots. But yeah, I think it's very hypocritical.

1034
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 7: And it's it's funny to you in that or I'm

1035
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 7: not funny but ironic, and that the Border Patrolley Union

1036
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 7: is putting out the numbers of when Trump's last year

1037
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 7: as president of death on the southern border, and these

1038
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 7: are just the ones that they find, not yeah, the

1039
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 7: actual number, which is usually three to four times as many.

1040
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 7: And then they're saying, oh, look in Biden's year, this

1041
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 7: has been twenty twenty three was the most deadly year.

1042
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 7: But it's like, you know, you guys never cared about

1043
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 7: how many people were dying before, and now the sudden

1044
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 7: you're like, you're killing more Miran than anybody else.

1045
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 4: Are you jealous? What's the deal?

1046
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, like the idea that these people that can send

1047
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 10: that they're like in a cumba. They keep people in

1048
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 10: open air attention for up to a week and in

1049
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 10: the freezing cold. You know, in San Diego Santasedro, people

1050
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 10: are two people have died Santa Sedro, one person has died.

1051
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 10: In the number probably dozens more people have died crossing

1052
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 10: in other routes that we haven't seen this year. It's

1053
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 10: it's been not as wet as previous winters. But just

1054
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 10: in my just in this week, I've seen people in

1055
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 10: extremely dire medical distress. And I've seen border patrol scream

1056
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 10: at those people and scream that people trying to help

1057
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 10: those people, and not do anything to help. So I'm

1058
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 10: finding it hard to buy that this is all Greg

1059
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 10: greg Abbott's fault, not that Greg Abbott is't a piece

1060
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 10: of shit. Yeah, I think we're in agreement on that,

1061
01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:35,880
Speaker 10: but like, yeah, the the attempt to lay all the

1062
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 10: blame at Greg abbots feet and suggests that there is

1063
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 10: a complete bipartisan agreement it seems, on killing migrants even

1064
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 10: like we don't see in the Trump era, we saw,

1065
01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 10: you know, AOC turn up and cry at the you know,

1066
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 10: unaccompanied children or the other separation of family separation attention,

1067
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 10: and we don't even see that anymore, Like we don't

1068
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 10: have any ear of that. And that's reflect in the press, right,

1069
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 10: we don't see anywhere near as much coverage of the

1070
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 10: brutality at the border as we used to. One thing

1071
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 10: that you've mentioned before we started with that you had

1072
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 10: there's some like there's pretty clear case law or Supreme

1073
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 10: Court decisions at least about like what BP could have

1074
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 10: done or what their rights are visa VI. The National Guard,

1075
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 10: could you explain some fat well as.

1076
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 7: Clear immigration precedent. So in eighteen seventy five, so prior

1077
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 7: to the Civil War, a little bit after the Civil War,

1078
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 7: states had always done their own immigration. So if you

1079
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 7: showed up in a boat on New Orleans in New

1080
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 7: Orleans Harbor, they would have their own immigration. You would

1081
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 7: have to pay a lot of times. In the California area,

1082
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 7: California was charging, especially Chinese migrants who were coming over

1083
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 7: for the railroad and the gold Rush and things like that.

1084
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 7: When they brought groups of Chinese women over, then California

1085
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 7: would label the ball as prostitutes and no good people,

1086
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 7: and then they would put them in jail and then

1087
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 7: find the captain of the ship like five hundred dollars

1088
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 7: a person, which is by today's standards it's like over

1089
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 7: fourteen thousand dollars, such a lot of money. Yeah, yeah,

1090
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 7: And so one of the one of the female migrants

1091
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 7: in eighteen seventy five, So you had no right to

1092
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 7: hold us in jail. You don't have this right. There's

1093
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 7: nothing that says that you have this right according to

1094
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 7: US law back then. And so the case is called

1095
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 7: Chai cchy Lung Lung versus freemen. And in eighteen seventy five.

1096
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 7: The Supreme Court decision was that immigration is solely the

1097
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 7: federal government's right to enforce and not the states, simply

1098
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 7: because of diplomatic relations. Also that we have treaties with

1099
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 7: other countries, and we have relationships with other countries, and

1100
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 7: they believe that while allowing states to do their own

1101
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 7: immigration would then hurt the United States in diplomacy with

1102
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 7: these other countries. And then the other thing that they

1103
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 7: mentioned was that there have been no due process given

1104
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 7: to the migrants during the time, and that's sufforded to migrants,

1105
01:04:15,320 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 7: whether they're undocumented or not, based on the Constitution. And

1106
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 7: then recently in two thousand. The most recent time that

1107
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 7: it was brought up was in twenty twelve when Arizona

1108
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 7: sued the United States. The Supreme Court upheld in that

1109
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 7: case that law enforcement can question citizenship during a legal stop,

1110
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 7: but denied other parts of the Arizona law SB. Ten

1111
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 7: seventy which allowed their peace officers to act like immigration officers.

1112
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 7: And they said, the reason why they can't do that,

1113
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 7: which is what greg Abbott is doing. The reason why

1114
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 7: Supreme Court said they can't do that in twenty twelve

1115
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 7: was because of Article six clause two, which states that

1116
01:04:56,360 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 7: the Constitution federal laws treaties made under federal authority take

1117
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 7: priority over state laws. So it's, you know, the supremacy clause. Basically,

1118
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 7: it's what it is. And so it's kind of like

1119
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 7: what Trump did when he was in office, where he

1120
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 7: starts separating children, and he starts putting everybody he crosses

1121
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 7: the border, whether it's for asylum or for nefarious reasons,

1122
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 7: in between the courts. He we'd take away their children.

1123
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 7: And I mean, that was in violation of the nineteen

1124
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,200
Speaker 7: eighty Refugee Act, and yet nobody really fought it on

1125
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 7: that basis. I'm not sure why they didn't find it

1126
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 7: on that basis. I'm not an attorney, so I can't

1127
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:41,520
Speaker 7: tell you, but at least you know this this decision

1128
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 7: Chai Lung versus Freeman, It's been around since eighteen seventy

1129
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 7: five and was brought up in twenty twelve, and the

1130
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 7: Supreme Court awesome used Chai Lung to make its argument

1131
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 7: of why Arizona couldn't have certain parts of SB ten

1132
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 7: seventy out. So what Greg Abbott is doing is the

1133
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 7: same thing Trump is, and is like, oh, will break

1134
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 7: the law, and you can take me to court and

1135
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 7: we'll see if this court agrees with what the last

1136
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 7: court said. So they're just breaking the law and then

1137
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,920
Speaker 7: enduring people to take them to court is simply what

1138
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 7: they're doing. In in the middle of this. Obviously the

1139
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 7: migrants are caught, the humanitarian organizations and everybody's caught. It

1140
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 7: causes chaos, basically, is what it's doing.

1141
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's causing an absolute mess at the border. And

1142
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 10: I think understandably what you hear from migrants is like,

1143
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 10: the people who are better informed, who have access to information, resources, finances,

1144
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 10: are telling me that they don't want to go to Texas,

1145
01:06:37,840 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 10: right because right, it's a mess, and it's a mess

1146
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 10: that kills people. And that's exactly what it's supposed to be.

1147
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 10: It's supposed to be uncertain, and it's supposed to be cruel,

1148
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 10: and so people who have the chance to you will

1149
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 10: come here. People who can't afford to right that they're

1150
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 10: coming north directly and it sort of takes us is there,

1151
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 10: you know, if they head directly north, but that that's

1152
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 10: where they end up. Texas has a huge amount of border.

1153
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,920
Speaker 10: Of course, then they're the people who tend to be

1154
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 10: the ones who are forced across there, and unfortunately that's

1155
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 10: realotten the much higher as you said, at much higher

1156
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 10: death rate. Right, Nick, it's do you have a sense

1157
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 10: of like I suppose it will be hard to tell

1158
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 10: because we have very little and were proper statistics, but like,

1159
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 10: what is the most fatal kind of part of the border.

1160
01:07:27,280 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 7: It's difficult to tell if it's the Sonoran Desert or

1161
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 7: if it's the Rio Grande River. And I say that

1162
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 7: because we don't see half the bodies, or we probably

1163
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:41,440
Speaker 7: don't see ninety percent of the bodies.

1164
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, I know a lot of deaths are on the

1165
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:50,480
Speaker 10: t reservation to reservation in there's.

1166
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 7: The bombing very goldwater bombing area that nobody's allowed in,

1167
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 7: but when they are occasionally allowed in, they find like

1168
01:07:56,920 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 7: groups of thirteen fifteen skeletons.

1169
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 3: And stuff like that.

1170
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 7: So I think it's a tassa between the Sonoran Desert

1171
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 7: and the Rio Grande River. The other problem with Texas's

1172
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 7: border is that primarily the majority of the property on

1173
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 7: the border in Texas is private property, and they tend

1174
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 7: to be very large ranches which may be no ranch

1175
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:24,919
Speaker 7: hand or anybody goes out, you know, through the acres

1176
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 7: to see this, and they might never ever find the bodies.

1177
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 7: It's kind of like the Sonoran desert and po nation

1178
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:33,400
Speaker 7: and then the bombing range and then just the fact

1179
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,200
Speaker 7: that the desert will just destroy the bones pretty quickly,

1180
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 7: especially once the winds cover thinks up that we have

1181
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,920
Speaker 7: a fair amount and Campo, as you know, in the

1182
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 7: Hakamba Campo wilderness area and the mountains and the Laguna Mountains.

1183
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 7: But I don't think it's near as bad because you

1184
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:53,759
Speaker 7: can look at those mountains and see how bad they are,

1185
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,719
Speaker 7: and most people don't want to dare across those mountains,

1186
01:08:56,760 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 7: but many still do. Obviously I worked up there. You

1187
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 7: you're familiar with that area, and so we have more

1188
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 7: than our fair share for certain. Yeah, but I would

1189
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 7: say I would say probably it's between Texas the Rio

1190
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 7: Grande and then the Sonora doesn't.

1191
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 10: For sure, Okay, yeah, yeah, I think I think that

1192
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 10: makes sense. It's probably a good time for us to

1193
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 10: break the border. Is getting people. These adverts probably aren't,

1194
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 10: but they're still not great. So you enjoy these products

1195
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 10: and services. All Right, we are back, and Jen, I

1196
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 10: wanted to ask, like, with regard to these I think

1197
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:47,600
Speaker 10: there's a couple of things that people might not be

1198
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:49,799
Speaker 10: clear on. We've tried to explain them on the podcast before.

1199
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,000
Speaker 10: The first is like Border Patrol will always say that

1200
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 10: all the BP agents are first responders, right, It's this

1201
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 10: line that they have, and like do they like in

1202
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,280
Speaker 10: terms of rescues, are they sort of like technically obliged

1203
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 10: to make rescues. I mean, I've seen people in very

1204
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 10: great stress and I've seen Border Patrol do nothing more

1205
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 10: times than I can count, So like I'm wondering, like

1206
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 10: is there some kind of like technical obligation that they

1207
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 10: have that they're just ignoring or is it sort of

1208
01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 10: at the discretion of the agent whether they think it's safe.

1209
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 10: What's there like official policy there?

1210
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 7: Well, if you're an agent in the field and you

1211
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 7: come upon a migrant drowning in the water or you know,

1212
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 7: has slipped and broken their leg and you're trying to

1213
01:10:34,240 --> 01:10:36,640
Speaker 7: decide if you should go down into this area or

1214
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 7: jump in the water and stuff, it is up to

1215
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 7: the individual agent to decide if they can handle that.

1216
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 7: So what you find most often the agents who are

1217
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 7: in the boats and working on either the oceans and border.

1218
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 7: They work on the ocean in California and they work

1219
01:10:51,479 --> 01:10:54,839
Speaker 7: on the ocean. Yeah, and then obviously along the Rio Grande.

1220
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 7: All those agents have specific training obviously and swimming. All

1221
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,599
Speaker 7: agents have training and swimming, but not at the level

1222
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 7: that the agents who are working on the water deck.

1223
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 7: So you have to go through extra training when you

1224
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,799
Speaker 7: take that position. It's like being on a horse patrol.

1225
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 7: You have to go through horse training and so forth.

1226
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 7: But all agents are trained in just basic CPR, just

1227
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 7: basic splinting, that kind of first aid stuff. But not

1228
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 7: all agents are what they call it, not Vortech, but

1229
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:27,000
Speaker 7: four Star, the rescue organization that they have now, and

1230
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,840
Speaker 7: that's didn't start until like the late nineties. And I

1231
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 7: didn't even see him when I was an agent, even

1232
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 7: though I was there until two thousand and one. I

1233
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 7: didn't see him out in Campo whenever we had a

1234
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 7: call about a rescue in Campo, at least the old

1235
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 7: Campo station that was on four Skate Road before they

1236
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 7: changed it all around. We had to go out in

1237
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 7: teams and that's the only time we worked in teens.

1238
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 7: Otherwise we hiked alone is if we were doing a rescue,

1239
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 7: especially in the wintertime, because it was even more dangerous

1240
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 7: and movie hiked all night until we found them. So

1241
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:05,400
Speaker 7: US regular agents just on the line would just move

1242
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 7: our positions and keep going. And we didn't necessarily have

1243
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 7: any specific training. We didn't repel a lot of helicopters

1244
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 7: back then and do all that stuff. What I think

1245
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:20,559
Speaker 7: that they started for was because we had a lot

1246
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 7: of attrition in the nineties, and it was more about

1247
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:27,479
Speaker 7: getting US regular agents that patrol the border away from

1248
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 7: the border because we were having that's when our massive

1249
01:12:29,960 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 7: suicide started, because of all the death that we were seeing.

1250
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 7: And I think it was an effort to keep the

1251
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 7: average agent from seeing the brutality of what they were doing,

1252
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 7: quite honestly, and so like I as an agent had

1253
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 7: lots of experience with dead bodies and so forth. But

1254
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 7: agents today who are on the line, they don't. They

1255
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 7: sit in their trucks, they watch the cameras, and then

1256
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,000
Speaker 7: when a dire thing comes out that somebody needs to

1257
01:12:59,040 --> 01:13:02,600
Speaker 7: be rescued forced our handles handles it. They might go

1258
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 7: do perimeter things and help out a little bit, but

1259
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:08,960
Speaker 7: they're not involved in the actual rescues. You know, in

1260
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 7: my day, I didn't know. I didn't know that many

1261
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,720
Speaker 7: agents who had never seen who had never experienced that,

1262
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 7: And I kind of think in a weird way that

1263
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 7: that's what makes today's agents so non caring, so non

1264
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 7: sympathetic to the migrants. We didn't call them invaders. And

1265
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 7: it's not to say that we weren't racist and we're brutal.

1266
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 7: It's just it's gotten even more brutal and more racist

1267
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 7: since since I was an agent, And certainly I would

1268
01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 7: say that the brutality that may have happened that would

1269
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 7: have happened maybe on an individual basis or with certain

1270
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 7: groups of agents. It's now policy throughout the whole agency,

1271
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,040
Speaker 7: and you're expected to be that brutal. And if you

1272
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:54,280
Speaker 7: can't be that brutal, then you can't hack it. So

1273
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 7: but the idea that they're all first responders, that just

1274
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 7: means they wear a bad and have a gun and

1275
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 7: have a car with you know, red and blue lights

1276
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 7: on it. But they're not all necessarily trained in like

1277
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,519
Speaker 7: the type of rescue that we're talking about in the

1278
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 7: Hakamba area in the mountains that takes very physically. I

1279
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:16,960
Speaker 7: could do it when I was younger, but obviously I

1280
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 7: can't do it now. Yeah, Yeah, we would have to

1281
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 7: get our best best agents, and especially if we went

1282
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:25,679
Speaker 7: north at the checkpoint north of I eight up into

1283
01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 7: the Lagunas, we would have to get our best fit

1284
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:28,800
Speaker 7: agents up there to do that.

1285
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, and it seems like that I don't see them

1286
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,360
Speaker 10: as much, certainly, like when there's a search and rescue now,

1287
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 10: just like everything else at the border very often falls

1288
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 10: on volunteers and community groups and people who are willing

1289
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,639
Speaker 10: to give their time and take the nonnegtible personal risk

1290
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 10: to rescue people.

1291
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 7: Because he I think we might have rescued more people

1292
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:54,839
Speaker 7: back then, even with half the amount of agents, simply

1293
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 7: because when we got the call, we went and we looked,

1294
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 7: and sometimes we'd meet the federal allies right at the

1295
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 7: border and they show us this is a group, and

1296
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,800
Speaker 7: so we looked for the sign and then we could

1297
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,759
Speaker 7: you know, frog it and get ahead of it. Whereas

1298
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 7: today if you call a bors Star, will all the

1299
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 7: Boord store agents have to get their gear on and

1300
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 7: then they have to get in the helicopter and then out.

1301
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I mean that's even if they're willing. So

1302
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:25,120
Speaker 10: like I know with a group that made a call

1303
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 10: this weekend for a gentleman who was in distress and

1304
01:15:29,479 --> 01:15:34,599
Speaker 10: had been suffering very greatly from exposure, and the agent

1305
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 10: in the office said it would be hours, maybe days

1306
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 10: before they arrived, right, So like if you can get through,

1307
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,600
Speaker 10: if you can get them to come out, like you

1308
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:47,719
Speaker 10: know that this and that that's very common. That's something

1309
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 10: that that's not unusual at all. The disdain for coming

1310
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 10: to right, the disdain for people's lives, right for coming

1311
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 10: to rescue them. It is extremely obvious, really, and like

1312
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 10: that's a that's not someone haves to be located. Like

1313
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:04,360
Speaker 10: I can give you a GPS reading down to you know,

1314
01:16:05,040 --> 01:16:07,639
Speaker 10: I think it's twenty figures, you know, extremely accurate location.

1315
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 7: It's just oh, yeah, we didn't have that in our day.

1316
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 7: I mean there was GPS, but we didn't have GPS capability.

1317
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 7: I never worked with GPS, so I worked with a

1318
01:16:17,400 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 7: compass that was pretty much.

1319
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:22,960
Speaker 10: Yet, Yeah, it's yeah, I mean they have more technology

1320
01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 10: than you know.

1321
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 7: I know, the agents today tell me they can see

1322
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 7: each other in the field. So they have something or

1323
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 7: their GPS system to tracked each other and so they

1324
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 7: can see where each other is. We never had.

1325
01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 10: Yeah, they did to military technology, just like everything else

1326
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,839
Speaker 10: that trickle down to the border patrol and sometimes trickles

1327
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:44,920
Speaker 10: from the border patrol down to the military actually with

1328
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:50,759
Speaker 10: a lot of the surveillance technology. Like, I think another

1329
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:53,479
Speaker 10: thing that people might not be aware of, and this

1330
01:16:53,640 --> 01:16:57,599
Speaker 10: is something that I think has happened recently but being

1331
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 10: young for several years now, is the deployment of the

1332
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 10: National God to the border. I think people know that

1333
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:05,759
Speaker 10: that is happening in Texas, but I think people probably

1334
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:08,120
Speaker 10: aren't aware that there's also a federal mission to the border,

1335
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:12,479
Speaker 10: right that the encompasses much more than Texas. And what

1336
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 10: are they National God, Well, I mean they I know

1337
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 10: they sit outside detention camps in Ukumber shouting at me,

1338
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 10: but what is their mission in theory at the border?

1339
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:24,960
Speaker 10: What are they doing there?

1340
01:17:26,240 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 7: Well, in theory their mission at the border is now

1341
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 7: they have these giant processing tints, you know in San

1342
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,640
Speaker 7: Diego and in Cheese on ane of the things. So

1343
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:38,479
Speaker 7: in general, what they're supposed to be doing is not

1344
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:44,040
Speaker 7: actively arresting or apprehending people, because that, according to the law,

1345
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:47,800
Speaker 7: would violate it. What they're supposed to be doing is

1346
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 7: is maybe sitting in a stationary spot operating the scope

1347
01:17:51,080 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 7: where they can tell border patrol at night. You know,

1348
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:56,160
Speaker 7: there's a group over here, DA DA DA, and then

1349
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:59,080
Speaker 7: the rest of the time they're mostly supposed to be

1350
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 7: work working in the processing centers, assistant people if they

1351
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:05,000
Speaker 7: need to go to medical or if they need this

1352
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 7: or that, and so they're just supposed to help so

1353
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:10,360
Speaker 7: that the agents don't have to sit around and babysit

1354
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 7: so much so that they can be back in the field.

1355
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 7: That's what they're supposed to be doing. And I mean

1356
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:17,200
Speaker 7: lots of presidents have done it. Barack Obama did it,

1357
01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 7: you know, so it's not unusual unusual. What is unusual

1358
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 7: is that in Texas you have Texas DPS and the

1359
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 7: military Texas National Guard actually pretending like they are border

1360
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,840
Speaker 7: patrol agents and running around and apprehending people even though

1361
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,759
Speaker 7: they do not have that legal authority. The US government

1362
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,240
Speaker 7: has not given it to them. And then the other

1363
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:48,320
Speaker 7: thing I think which is legally the most dangerous is

1364
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 7: where they push the migrants back into the water. Number one,

1365
01:18:53,280 --> 01:18:56,240
Speaker 7: The law is that if you set foot on US soil,

1366
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:59,879
Speaker 7: then you're entitled to an immigration hearing if you so choose,

1367
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 7: and you cannot turn somebody back. Agent cannot legally turn

1368
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 7: somebody back once they've crossed, so once they're across that

1369
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:10,280
Speaker 7: middle part of the river, they're in the United States

1370
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 7: and they're your problem now. So you have to deal

1371
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 7: with that, and you have to process them. You have

1372
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:16,920
Speaker 7: to figure out who they are, you have to friend

1373
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:20,040
Speaker 7: and records checks and all this other stuff. It'd be interesting.

1374
01:19:20,320 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 7: You know. The Biden administration has it pressed Abbot on this,

1375
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 7: and I've always wondered, why are they allowing him to

1376
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 7: do this and take over immigration as a state authority. Yeah,

1377
01:19:32,479 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 7: I think they just don't want to fight it.

1378
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, they don't want to be attacked on like this,

1379
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 10: like this idea that Biden's like, there's this myth of

1380
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:44,760
Speaker 10: Biden's opens borders, which is actually ridiculous, and be like,

1381
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:48,040
Speaker 10: as Erica reminded us last week, like we all as

1382
01:19:48,160 --> 01:19:50,679
Speaker 10: US passport holders, have open borders to us all over

1383
01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:53,720
Speaker 10: the world. It's very problematic. We think other people shouldn't.

1384
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:57,120
Speaker 10: But yeah, I think the idea of like looking weak

1385
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:00,960
Speaker 10: or like, you know, he wants to himself against an

1386
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 10: attack from the right.

1387
01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 7: So's the same reason why he won't get rid of

1388
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 7: the Border Patrol Union, because you know, the Border Patrol Union.

1389
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:14,160
Speaker 7: Now that Donald Trump, before he left Diet, he gave

1390
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 7: them what's called security designation, So there are they are

1391
01:20:18,720 --> 01:20:21,759
Speaker 7: a security organization now, which means they're like the FBI,

1392
01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 7: they're like the DA and all this other stuff, and

1393
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:28,320
Speaker 7: so they can't have a bargaining unit. So the Border

1394
01:20:28,360 --> 01:20:32,240
Speaker 7: Patrol Union is actually illegal under five USC seven one

1395
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:36,519
Speaker 7: one two, little b little sixth. But Biden is weak

1396
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:39,679
Speaker 7: and he doesn't want to look like he hates unions.

1397
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:41,719
Speaker 7: He always wants to look like he's strong on unions

1398
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 7: because he's a union politician, and he refuses to get

1399
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:47,760
Speaker 7: rid of them. But the fear and the reason why

1400
01:20:47,800 --> 01:20:50,519
Speaker 7: that law exists is exactly what we see them doing now,

1401
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:54,720
Speaker 7: where the union representatives who are Border patrol agents, they

1402
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,280
Speaker 7: have national security information and they're actively working against this

1403
01:20:58,400 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 7: current administration.

1404
01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's why we have it.

1405
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:03,600
Speaker 7: But he's just weak and he won't do anything about.

1406
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:07,000
Speaker 10: It, right and it certainly I think whoever wins next time,

1407
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:11,400
Speaker 10: they're not going to do anything about it now. Yeah,

1408
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:26,519
Speaker 10: I think either way. You like also pattention to the

1409
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 10: VP union and I think it's one of the worst

1410
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:34,080
Speaker 10: accounts on Twitter dot com. But I also like, I'm

1411
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 10: in the event of a Republican victory which at the

1412
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 10: moment it's looking like Trump might be then nominee. Right, Certainly,

1413
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:43,839
Speaker 10: it seems for support for Trump kind of these people

1414
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 10: seem to have his ear on immigration and they seem

1415
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:51,679
Speaker 10: to want the same things. Right, So I'm wondering Biden

1416
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 10: has been bad. His border policy has been objectively bad,

1417
01:21:55,120 --> 01:21:57,160
Speaker 10: and it's very hard for me not to see it

1418
01:21:57,160 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 10: as racist. Like it's very hard for me not to

1419
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:03,280
Speaker 10: see his immigration specifically favoring white people and specifically disadvantaging

1420
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:06,200
Speaker 10: black people. And I don't think I could be persuaded

1421
01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:10,240
Speaker 10: that's not the case. What do you think, Like it

1422
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:12,400
Speaker 10: seems that immigration policy only moves one way and it

1423
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 10: just gets worse and worse, and border policy does the same.

1424
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 10: What are they like demanding and what do you think

1425
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 10: is sort of at stake in the upcoming election this

1426
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 10: year's election regarding the border.

1427
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,160
Speaker 7: So I was paying attention to what Speaker Johnson was

1428
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:32,200
Speaker 7: saying before we logged on to talk, and he was

1429
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 7: saying that there was going to be no deal for

1430
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:37,080
Speaker 7: the border unless Donald Trump was the one doing the deal.

1431
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 7: So he doesn't want to even fund the border patrol

1432
01:22:39,479 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 7: right now. So, I mean, my impression of what the

1433
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:45,640
Speaker 7: border patrol, and what the Union is trying to do

1434
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 7: at this moment is that they are trying to make

1435
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:55,680
Speaker 7: the border as chaotic as absolutely possible, and that is

1436
01:22:55,720 --> 01:23:01,160
Speaker 7: their goal. They want bodies, black and brown bodies coming

1437
01:23:01,240 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 7: over that fence, and they want the optics of it.

1438
01:23:05,280 --> 01:23:07,840
Speaker 7: That's what I think is going on, and that's why

1439
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:11,800
Speaker 7: I think that they're picking specific cities to have a

1440
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:14,960
Speaker 7: lot of the migrants come through. I think that that's

1441
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 7: the reason why they have like specific cities, because you

1442
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:20,680
Speaker 7: saw like a couple of weeks together, they're like, oh

1443
01:23:20,680 --> 01:23:22,720
Speaker 7: my god, the border's being overrun and oh my god,

1444
01:23:22,800 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 7: what are we going to do? And this and that,

1445
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 7: and then you realize it's just like three or four sectors,

1446
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 7: and even within those sectors, it's just one or two areas.

1447
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 7: It's not the entire border. Is it problematic? Is it chaotic?

1448
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 7: Is it a human rights disaster for the minents? Yes?

1449
01:23:40,920 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 7: Is it that for the border patrol? No? I think

1450
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 7: the border patrol is adding to it. And in fact,

1451
01:23:46,360 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 7: when I do the numbers and you compare like the

1452
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:50,799
Speaker 7: staff that we have back when I was an agent

1453
01:23:51,080 --> 01:23:53,719
Speaker 7: and the staff that they have today, they're not even

1454
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 7: apprehending half the amount that each agent apprehended when we

1455
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 7: were in the patrol back in the day. And so

1456
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 7: you know, for them to apprehend the group now, when

1457
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:07,120
Speaker 7: I see them apprehend a group of life, even ten people,

1458
01:24:07,200 --> 01:24:11,559
Speaker 7: twelve people, they will take five agents to apprehend twelve people.

1459
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 7: I have apprehended one hundred people by myself, and that's

1460
01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:19,000
Speaker 7: not safe. I shouldn't suggest that people do that, but

1461
01:24:19,080 --> 01:24:21,679
Speaker 7: I have apprehended It is normal for a border patrol

1462
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:25,599
Speaker 7: agent to apprehend twenty to thirty people by themselves, including

1463
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:29,280
Speaker 7: a female agent who's at the time was super skinny

1464
01:24:29,320 --> 01:24:31,840
Speaker 7: and super small. And the reason why is because the

1465
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 7: vast majority of migrants aren't criminals and they're not trying

1466
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:39,240
Speaker 7: to hurt you. So that's why a single agent can

1467
01:24:39,280 --> 01:24:43,679
Speaker 7: apprehend so many people. But today they use like six

1468
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 7: or seven agents to apprehend groups, and so I'm not

1469
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:51,400
Speaker 7: sure why they're overwhelmed. Quite frankly, they should be able

1470
01:24:51,439 --> 01:24:55,080
Speaker 7: to handle three hundred and four hundred thousand people a

1471
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:57,720
Speaker 7: month in the border patrol if they have to.

1472
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:04,639
Speaker 10: Yeah, even though a world without the border patrol would

1473
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 10: be better, in a world without this bloated and violent

1474
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 10: and overfunded and really terribly just just a mess of

1475
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:14,640
Speaker 10: quality and violence that we have now would be a

1476
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,280
Speaker 10: lot better, but things could get a lot worse for

1477
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 10: those people, like even the time it takes for them

1478
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,000
Speaker 10: to be processed, and that the time it takes for

1479
01:25:23,040 --> 01:25:26,040
Speaker 10: them to have their hearing. Immigration law could change for

1480
01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 10: the worse very quickly if either person wins presidency. And indeed,

1481
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:33,679
Speaker 10: like it seems that Biden has floated like a return

1482
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:37,800
Speaker 10: to Title forty two as a as a compromise to

1483
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:42,960
Speaker 10: get funding for Ukraine. So like, yeah, this inefficiency doesn't

1484
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 10: just like even when people are apprehended, their failure to

1485
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,719
Speaker 10: do their jobs hurts people right like it it puts

1486
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 10: them at greater risk.

1487
01:25:53,040 --> 01:25:56,799
Speaker 7: It does. And I mean a lot of the things

1488
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,920
Speaker 7: that the Border Patrol has done has created it and

1489
01:26:01,040 --> 01:26:04,439
Speaker 7: made these things worse. A lot of the areas out

1490
01:26:04,479 --> 01:26:07,800
Speaker 7: near Sasabe, a lot of people never even crossed until

1491
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:10,680
Speaker 7: Trump put that wall out there because they didn't have

1492
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,400
Speaker 7: road access to a lot of that area. And if

1493
01:26:13,439 --> 01:26:15,600
Speaker 7: you did have road access, you had to have a

1494
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:17,960
Speaker 7: very serious four by four to get out there. You

1495
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:20,280
Speaker 7: can't do it in a regular car, and you can't

1496
01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 7: do it in a kind of city type of four

1497
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:25,439
Speaker 7: by four. You need a serious four by four to

1498
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 7: get it into some of those areas. And then just

1499
01:26:29,120 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 7: our policies are deterrence policies. You know, when I was

1500
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,559
Speaker 7: an agent in the nineties, it costs you know, probably

1501
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 7: somebody from Central America costs about eighteen hundred dollars to

1502
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:40,479
Speaker 7: get here. Now it's ten thousand or more dollars. So

1503
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:45,800
Speaker 7: we've made it profitable for people to smuggle people in

1504
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:51,440
Speaker 7: and cross them illegally. Illegally, We've created this entire situation ourselves.

1505
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:57,120
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't have any doubt that other countries

1506
01:26:57,160 --> 01:27:00,839
Speaker 7: that maybe don't like that, you know, all the migrants

1507
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:04,720
Speaker 7: coming across, the destabilization that will cause with people who

1508
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:07,839
Speaker 7: are racist or who don't know anything about the border,

1509
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 7: they all see that as a bonus. But the fact

1510
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:12,280
Speaker 7: of the matter is is that people who are crossing

1511
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 7: they still need asylum, they still have serious needs. Just

1512
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,920
Speaker 7: because you know, I've seen some people floating around that

1513
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:24,600
Speaker 7: people are pushing migrants across our southern border to destabilize US.

1514
01:27:25,920 --> 01:27:28,880
Speaker 7: I don't know if that's necessarily true. We don't have

1515
01:27:28,920 --> 01:27:31,360
Speaker 7: any proof of that. But even if they are, isn't

1516
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:35,240
Speaker 7: the better attitude to have because asylum is legal, isn't

1517
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:37,719
Speaker 7: the better attitude to have? Well, how can we better,

1518
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:42,720
Speaker 7: you know, help these people and not let this destabilize

1519
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:44,960
Speaker 7: who we are and make them part of our communities

1520
01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:47,599
Speaker 7: and so forth. I think that's a better choice than

1521
01:27:47,840 --> 01:27:50,000
Speaker 7: sending them out to the desert or to drown in

1522
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:50,559
Speaker 7: the rivers.

1523
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:55,400
Speaker 10: Yeah. Absolutely, And I think it bears. I mean, people

1524
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 10: listening to this will probably be in agreement that, yeah,

1525
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 10: these people should be treated preticunanty and respect adless. And

1526
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:04,679
Speaker 10: I generally don't buy that they're being shipped on mass

1527
01:28:04,680 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 10: to destabilize this country. But I think even if you

1528
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 10: don't care about their rights, every single advance advance is

1529
01:28:13,280 --> 01:28:16,799
Speaker 10: around word, right, But increase in surveillance, every single increase

1530
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 10: in state violence, every single incursion into individual rights starts

1531
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:24,120
Speaker 10: at the border, but it doesn't stop there, right, Like,

1532
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:27,600
Speaker 10: if you've protested in twenty twenty, you were surveilled by

1533
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,559
Speaker 10: technology that came from the border. You were sometimes targeting

1534
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:34,320
Speaker 10: by Leslie for weapons that were first issued to border patrol,

1535
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 10: Like you're the intelligence that police now gather began with

1536
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:42,960
Speaker 10: border patrol. Like so much of the even the stuff

1537
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:46,200
Speaker 10: that we see used at the border today or the

1538
01:28:46,240 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 10: stuff that we see using surveillance today overwhelmingly comes from

1539
01:28:49,439 --> 01:28:53,400
Speaker 10: either border patrol or the Israel as a border. And

1540
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:56,080
Speaker 10: also most of these things are the same companies, right,

1541
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:59,479
Speaker 10: Companies that do one also do the other. And so like,

1542
01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:02,439
Speaker 10: I guess if people are talking to people who don't

1543
01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:04,439
Speaker 10: seem to care about the rights of migrants, which is

1544
01:29:04,479 --> 01:29:08,839
Speaker 10: a worryingly large amount of our society, like this will

1545
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 10: come and bite someone else in it, like to include

1546
01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:15,639
Speaker 10: the people who decided to storm the capitol on January sixth,

1547
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 10: twenty twenty one. Right, Like, lots of this effectant technology

1548
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:20,559
Speaker 10: that bit them in the Ayes came from the border

1549
01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:21,719
Speaker 10: and the people they hated.

1550
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:26,559
Speaker 7: And that's absolutely true. And I mean, you know it's

1551
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:28,600
Speaker 7: the Border patrol says this, but they mean it in

1552
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 7: a different way. They say, what happens at the border

1553
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:33,360
Speaker 7: doesn't stay at the border, and they mean that because

1554
01:29:33,400 --> 01:29:35,840
Speaker 7: they try and portray migrants as all criminals. So they're

1555
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:37,800
Speaker 7: trying to tell people, oh, see, these criminals are going

1556
01:29:37,880 --> 01:29:41,080
Speaker 7: to come to Iowa or Illinois and so that. But

1557
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:44,800
Speaker 7: I say, in the fact that the surveillance has come

1558
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:46,559
Speaker 7: into you because you know, I mean you know, in

1559
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 7: San Diego, we got street lamps out here that can

1560
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:53,719
Speaker 7: listen to US and video US YEP and track wherever

1561
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 7: we're going down the street, from lock to block. And

1562
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:58,639
Speaker 7: it's ridiculous. You can't even walk your dog without being

1563
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 7: surveilled around here. And yet we're far from them, twenty

1564
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,040
Speaker 7: miles from the border, north of the border, and it's

1565
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 7: still surveilled around here. And so all of that surveillance, yes,

1566
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:12,760
Speaker 7: that's being used on American citizens. And when you go

1567
01:30:12,800 --> 01:30:16,360
Speaker 7: to places like McCallan, so the Rio Grande Valley sector

1568
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:19,559
Speaker 7: right now, it's really slow. They're getting about a little

1569
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 7: over one thousand, maybe two thousand apprehensions a week, which

1570
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:27,360
Speaker 7: is really slow size of the sector. And they're like,

1571
01:30:28,320 --> 01:30:30,920
Speaker 7: you know, they have so much surveillance, Like you can

1572
01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:33,280
Speaker 7: see there's a tower, there's a tower. There's a tower there,

1573
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:36,679
Speaker 7: and it is all this Israeli technology and they can

1574
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:41,839
Speaker 7: listen to cell phones and that usually needs a warrant.

1575
01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:44,599
Speaker 7: But apparently down here on the border, and I've had

1576
01:30:45,280 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 7: current border patrol agents tell me the Fourth Amendment doesn't

1577
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:51,680
Speaker 7: exist down here. It's like, what is that one they're

1578
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:54,960
Speaker 7: teaching here in the academy now doesn't exist down here,

1579
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:59,200
Speaker 7: and apparently that's what border patrol agents think, and they

1580
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 7: think they have to do I do anybody that they

1581
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:05,200
Speaker 7: see and all this other stuff, and it just it's

1582
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:10,720
Speaker 7: it's interesting how much this is spreading, how much the

1583
01:31:10,840 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 7: checkpoints are spreading. And you know, like in mind, we

1584
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 7: didn't do invasive searches if it wasn't obvious, we didn't

1585
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:25,679
Speaker 7: stop them. And nowadays they'll do on full body cavvy

1586
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 7: searches at a checkpoint and I'm like, what I heard that?

1587
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:33,200
Speaker 7: And so all this stuff is just gonna it's just

1588
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:36,280
Speaker 7: getting further and further into the interior of the United States,

1589
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 7: like we saw in the trip nutrition like you said, yeah,

1590
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 7: it's going to be brought back out for sure. Yeah.

1591
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:47,760
Speaker 10: Yeah. So I wonder, like how do we I mean,

1592
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:51,360
Speaker 10: it does seem very bleak, like I which is why

1593
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 10: I like to devote so much of my time to

1594
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 10: like mutual aid work on the border, because it's a

1595
01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 10: meaningful way to help. But how do we move the

1596
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 10: needle to a more humane place? Like this is one

1597
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:05,160
Speaker 10: of the places where like I think, like we should

1598
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:07,720
Speaker 10: do whatever we can to make this like even if

1599
01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 10: it's something that would normally be this tasteful to us,

1600
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 10: but like, yeah, what is it that we can do

1601
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 10: to either, like maybe change people's minds, Like I'm sure

1602
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:21,640
Speaker 10: you yourself have changed your mind on what we need

1603
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:26,200
Speaker 10: to do on the border and to because the conversation

1604
01:32:26,280 --> 01:32:29,800
Speaker 10: around the border is not only toxic, but it's also

1605
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 10: so deeply rooted in ignorance and lack of understanding, and like,

1606
01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 10: I don't think we were talking about this before we

1607
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:39,320
Speaker 10: started back. Like I encountered a three year old girl

1608
01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:43,599
Speaker 10: the other day who was extremely cold. She had her

1609
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:46,120
Speaker 10: feet have been wet and cold for hours days and

1610
01:32:46,439 --> 01:32:48,720
Speaker 10: she was the cold beyond shivering, and we were trying

1611
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:52,880
Speaker 10: to warm her up, and it was very disstressing. I

1612
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:54,479
Speaker 10: don't think many people have seen that. And I don't

1613
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:59,680
Speaker 10: think even you're like sort of hardest border big at

1614
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,920
Speaker 10: face book uncles would want to look that in the

1615
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:05,160
Speaker 10: face and be like, yeah, that's what we should do. Damn,

1616
01:33:05,240 --> 01:33:07,559
Speaker 10: I'm really proud of this country, So how do we

1617
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:08,639
Speaker 10: move this to a better place?

1618
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:09,080
Speaker 1: Do you think?

1619
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:12,080
Speaker 7: I think one of the biggest mistakes that the Biden

1620
01:33:12,120 --> 01:33:15,240
Speaker 7: administration did was that they didn't, you know, in the beginning,

1621
01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:18,840
Speaker 7: they hired a lot of really really good people, like

1622
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 7: I think Andrea Flores was one of the administration people,

1623
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:27,760
Speaker 7: and she knows her stuff, and I think that they

1624
01:33:27,960 --> 01:33:31,080
Speaker 7: had this idea from what she had said that the

1625
01:33:31,160 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 7: people that support immigration and immigrant rights in this and

1626
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:40,200
Speaker 7: that she was saying that they were viewed as soft

1627
01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 7: hearted individuals on immigration and they were too soft and

1628
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 7: they didn't understand border security. One of the things that

1629
01:33:47,160 --> 01:33:51,000
Speaker 7: Biden should have done was start educating Americans about why

1630
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:55,040
Speaker 7: the asylum system is so important and what the benefits

1631
01:33:55,080 --> 01:33:58,679
Speaker 7: are that it brings to us. And they have never

1632
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:03,840
Speaker 7: done that. There's no about it. There's nothing And I

1633
01:34:03,880 --> 01:34:08,720
Speaker 7: don't know if NGOs do it on that large environment

1634
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:11,479
Speaker 7: on cable news or whatever, because they don't really watch

1635
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 7: mainstream news and stuff. But Americans are just astonished it.

1636
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:20,320
Speaker 7: Like when I started doing the TikTok videos and explaining,

1637
01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:23,479
Speaker 7: you know, border patroling, the people in green cbps and

1638
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 7: Blues people didn't know just the basic things. The majority

1639
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 7: of Americans who feel that they have a very a

1640
01:34:32,000 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 7: very specific view on immigration, whether they hate it or

1641
01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:39,400
Speaker 7: they love it, they don't know much about immigration. They

1642
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 7: don't know how it works. They literally think people just

1643
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 7: get off their couch and go let's just go to America.

1644
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 7: And they just hop over the fence and they all

1645
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 7: have money and they're all getting free stuff and this

1646
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:52,839
Speaker 7: and that. So this administration, the government has done nothing

1647
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:58,000
Speaker 7: to explain what is happening and why it happens. And

1648
01:34:58,479 --> 01:35:02,400
Speaker 7: I always say that the asylum system is essential to

1649
01:35:02,560 --> 01:35:06,679
Speaker 7: national security. What we saw in the Biden administration when

1650
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 7: he first opened up the ports of entry to allow

1651
01:35:10,120 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 7: specifically Haitians to apply at the ports of entry, we

1652
01:35:14,479 --> 01:35:18,120
Speaker 7: saw the amount of Haitians go from the crossing in

1653
01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:20,840
Speaker 7: between the ports it regularly. We saw it going from

1654
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:23,759
Speaker 7: you know, thousands down to like one hundred and something.

1655
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:27,519
Speaker 7: So the idea is that you have to have a

1656
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:30,840
Speaker 7: robust and humane asylum system where you're processing people where

1657
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:32,880
Speaker 7: they don't have to wait so long that they're going

1658
01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 7: to give up across it regularly. Because the vast majority

1659
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,599
Speaker 7: of people who believe that they have a legitimate asylum.

1660
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:42,000
Speaker 7: Clane and I do think that what constitutes the asylum

1661
01:35:42,040 --> 01:35:45,439
Speaker 7: needs to be revisited because it's outdated, especially now that

1662
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:49,920
Speaker 7: we have client and change. But is that you want

1663
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:53,120
Speaker 7: those people to come and be inspected. We want people

1664
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:55,800
Speaker 7: to come and stand outside the port of entry and

1665
01:35:55,880 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 7: wait and be inspected by CBP. If we're going to

1666
01:35:59,280 --> 01:36:01,320
Speaker 7: have a border, we're going to have all this. We

1667
01:36:01,360 --> 01:36:03,719
Speaker 7: would want that so that then we could say, Okay,

1668
01:36:03,800 --> 01:36:06,479
Speaker 7: we've checked them. They appear to be okay, they're going

1669
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:08,920
Speaker 7: to this place. Now they have an immigration hearing before

1670
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:10,439
Speaker 7: a judge. We're going to make sure that they get

1671
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:15,320
Speaker 7: the system and you know, and then see it more

1672
01:36:15,400 --> 01:36:18,400
Speaker 7: as a system that's a benefit to us instead of

1673
01:36:18,479 --> 01:36:21,599
Speaker 7: creating enemies, which is what we're doing now. Every time

1674
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:24,519
Speaker 7: a migrant turns around, even if they do are able

1675
01:36:24,560 --> 01:36:28,719
Speaker 7: to get into the United States the quote unquote legal

1676
01:36:28,760 --> 01:36:31,400
Speaker 7: way at a port of entry, they're still met with

1677
01:36:31,520 --> 01:36:34,640
Speaker 7: you can't work for one hundred and fifty days, and

1678
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:36,280
Speaker 7: then you can't do this, and you can't do that,

1679
01:36:36,360 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 7: and you have to show up. And so we're constant.

1680
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 7: Everything is punishment, Everything is punitive in our immigration system,

1681
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:46,360
Speaker 7: and we can't do that. We want these people to

1682
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:49,680
Speaker 7: become citizens. We want these people to become part of

1683
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 7: our our society. We need it, and so we have

1684
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 7: to we have to have somebody bold enough to explain

1685
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,080
Speaker 7: this to the American people. If you close the asylum system.

1686
01:36:59,479 --> 01:37:02,600
Speaker 7: Everybody's going to cross regularly, just like they did in

1687
01:37:02,680 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 7: Title forty two, and you're going to get tons and

1688
01:37:05,160 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 7: tons of bodies coming across the wall. We need to

1689
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:10,760
Speaker 7: be bold enough to say we want a humane and

1690
01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:14,960
Speaker 7: robust asylum system where families can wait together and be processed.

1691
01:37:15,320 --> 01:37:18,360
Speaker 7: And then, you know, I mean the decision between should

1692
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:21,679
Speaker 7: we fund detention centers and home people who are crossing

1693
01:37:21,800 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 7: just waiting for their immigration hearing in detention, or should

1694
01:37:25,960 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 7: we fund you know, humane services, like let's get you

1695
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:33,040
Speaker 7: into whatever city you're going to. Let's help you find

1696
01:37:33,040 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 7: a school for your kids, Let's help you learn English,

1697
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:37,280
Speaker 7: let's help you find a job, Let's help you and

1698
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 7: you can hire and pay people to do that instead

1699
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 7: of putting people in attention. It doesn't have to be

1700
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:45,879
Speaker 7: a punitive system. We've just made it that way because

1701
01:37:46,960 --> 01:37:50,720
Speaker 7: the people on the for profit prisons before Trump was

1702
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:56,360
Speaker 7: supposedly elected, they were lobbying Jeff Sessions and Steven Miller

1703
01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 7: when he was working for Jeff Sessions and so Geo

1704
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 7: and all them. They're the ones that decided this is

1705
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:05,400
Speaker 7: how we're going to go. And the fact of the

1706
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:07,680
Speaker 7: matter is is I know, I think we're on a

1707
01:38:07,760 --> 01:38:11,800
Speaker 7: disagreement with open border versus you know, or having border

1708
01:38:11,840 --> 01:38:14,559
Speaker 7: patrol at all. But I always say an open border

1709
01:38:14,640 --> 01:38:18,200
Speaker 7: is just as dangerous as a closed border. And when

1710
01:38:19,000 --> 01:38:22,160
Speaker 7: when you close off the asylum system, that forces everybody

1711
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:24,800
Speaker 7: to then cross in between the ports of entry, and

1712
01:38:24,840 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 7: that is what does overwhelm border patrol. So if you

1713
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,360
Speaker 7: don't want to overwhelm your border patrol, then you have

1714
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:33,680
Speaker 7: to pull them back and you have to start processing

1715
01:38:33,680 --> 01:38:37,080
Speaker 7: people like they're supposed to be processed at the court

1716
01:38:37,080 --> 01:38:39,439
Speaker 7: of entry. The other thing people forget about is we've

1717
01:38:39,479 --> 01:38:42,719
Speaker 7: had four years, literally four years of the asylum system

1718
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:45,680
Speaker 7: being shut down because of MPP and Title forty two.

1719
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:48,720
Speaker 7: Those are Trent policies. It took by no while to

1720
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:50,720
Speaker 7: get through all those. But what do you think all

1721
01:38:50,760 --> 01:38:52,640
Speaker 7: those people that were sitting around for four years are

1722
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,000
Speaker 7: doing there waiting? They're turning to get over there. So

1723
01:38:55,080 --> 01:38:57,920
Speaker 7: we have a backlog not just the people in the

1724
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 7: United States waiting for the immigration hearing, we have a

1725
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 7: backlog of people in Mexico waiting to come across. So

1726
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:09,240
Speaker 7: they created this whole thing themselves. I find it very

1727
01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:13,640
Speaker 7: interesting the press never mentions that basically what TRUP did

1728
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:16,280
Speaker 7: was close the whole immigration system down and kick the

1729
01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:17,160
Speaker 7: can down the road.

1730
01:39:17,600 --> 01:39:21,639
Speaker 10: Yeah yeah, I mean consciously or unconsciously. It's like shaken

1731
01:39:21,720 --> 01:39:23,920
Speaker 10: up a can of beer and then someone's going to

1732
01:39:23,920 --> 01:39:25,200
Speaker 10: take a little off at some point, you know, and

1733
01:39:25,240 --> 01:39:27,720
Speaker 10: it's going to blow out. Oh yeah, and it's been

1734
01:39:27,760 --> 01:39:30,880
Speaker 10: willing to and so it's still going to get kicked

1735
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:32,800
Speaker 10: down the road. I mean, people have come in since

1736
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:35,200
Speaker 10: the end of title forty two, but as you say,

1737
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:37,599
Speaker 10: there's a huge backlog, and people aren't, as you say,

1738
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:40,960
Speaker 10: going to stop coming, right because like it's dangerous getting here.

1739
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:45,240
Speaker 10: I've walked those trails. They're not easy, and they're certainly

1740
01:39:45,280 --> 01:39:47,360
Speaker 10: not easy when you're carrying your kid and it's raining

1741
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:52,120
Speaker 10: and it's dark, but it's I've also been in Syria,

1742
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 10: in Iraq and in other places where these people are

1743
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,600
Speaker 10: coming from, and I understand why they're doing it, and

1744
01:39:57,640 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 10: I would do it too if I had a family

1745
01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 10: and I wanted to escape that. So I think we're

1746
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:06,720
Speaker 10: laughing if we think that we're going to I mean,

1747
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,639
Speaker 10: we've tried to make our border as unpleasant as those places,

1748
01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:13,280
Speaker 10: and it's deadly as those places, right, and fortunately we

1749
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:17,080
Speaker 10: failed and so that doesn't mean people will stop coming

1750
01:40:17,120 --> 01:40:17,880
Speaker 10: whatever we do.

1751
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:21,639
Speaker 7: We've had thirty years of walls and border patrols, concept

1752
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:26,080
Speaker 7: of deterrence policies that they claim will prevent people from

1753
01:40:26,120 --> 01:40:31,680
Speaker 7: crossing irregularly or illegally, and they've all failed. And I

1754
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:33,840
Speaker 7: think it's time to try something new. I think it's

1755
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:37,400
Speaker 7: time to stop listening to the people who get all

1756
01:40:37,400 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 7: the money and get all the guns and get all

1757
01:40:39,120 --> 01:40:41,880
Speaker 7: the militarizations saying it has to be this way. It

1758
01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 7: does not have to be that way. And I think

1759
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 7: it's very important to point out that we live in

1760
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 7: the United States of America. Even though we have a

1761
01:40:48,720 --> 01:40:51,640
Speaker 7: lot of problems and we're possibly losing our democracy in

1762
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:54,680
Speaker 7: our country right now, it is still far better than

1763
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,519
Speaker 7: the places that these people are coming from, and we

1764
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 7: should be thankful for that and then figure out a

1765
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,559
Speaker 7: way to protect ourselves as just as we can.

1766
01:41:03,960 --> 01:41:07,200
Speaker 10: You know, yeah, yeah, I think I think that's yeah,

1767
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 10: it's a good place to end. Like, we should be

1768
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:11,960
Speaker 10: grateful that for now we live in a much more

1769
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:14,280
Speaker 10: stable place and that we were able to we have

1770
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:18,120
Speaker 10: the resources to welcome people, and we do the benefit

1771
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:20,600
Speaker 10: to our communities when we.

1772
01:41:20,360 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 3: Have from us.

1773
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:25,439
Speaker 7: Yeah, we need people right now.

1774
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,040
Speaker 10: So yeah, people forever bitching about not being able to

1775
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 10: find people to work and also at the same time

1776
01:41:29,960 --> 01:41:33,439
Speaker 10: turning away people who would love. You know, every migrant

1777
01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,040
Speaker 10: I meet in the cumber message me on WhatsApps saying, Hey,

1778
01:41:37,000 --> 01:41:39,800
Speaker 10: struggling to find work because they don't get work authorization.

1779
01:41:39,960 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 10: Right there are a lot of jobs that you're doing,

1780
01:41:42,120 --> 01:41:43,799
Speaker 10: and a lot of people who want to do them,

1781
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:47,440
Speaker 10: and but we're so wrapped up in our bigger trendenophobia

1782
01:41:47,520 --> 01:41:49,559
Speaker 10: that we won't let them do it right.

1783
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:53,640
Speaker 7: We've made it as difficult for them as we absolutely

1784
01:41:53,760 --> 01:41:54,599
Speaker 7: positively can.

1785
01:41:55,040 --> 01:41:58,639
Speaker 10: Yeah, Jen, thank you for joining us. Is there any

1786
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:00,439
Speaker 10: way that people can like follow you on line? You've

1787
01:42:00,479 --> 01:42:02,320
Speaker 10: done a really good job at sort of cracking some

1788
01:42:02,360 --> 01:42:05,559
Speaker 10: of the board patrols nonsense recently. So where can people

1789
01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:06,360
Speaker 10: find that?

1790
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,560
Speaker 7: They can find it on jin the j E N

1791
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:14,120
Speaker 7: Nthudd dot com.

1792
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:15,600
Speaker 10: Great mesair, it's a good resource. And well, thank you

1793
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:17,200
Speaker 10: so much, jenf. We really appreciate your time.

1794
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:19,519
Speaker 7: I appreciate you.

1795
01:42:19,600 --> 01:42:37,360
Speaker 11: Jeerz bye, Okay, hello, welcome to It could happen here.

1796
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:41,559
Speaker 12: This is Sharene today. I am joined by you know

1797
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 12: you know him.

1798
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:42,519
Speaker 3: You love him.

1799
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:43,080
Speaker 12: It's Robert.

1800
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:45,080
Speaker 10: Hi, Robert Ah.

1801
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 2: Someone knows me and loves me.

1802
01:42:46,479 --> 01:42:47,200
Speaker 3: That's nice.

1803
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:51,360
Speaker 12: Robert is here today to talk with me to Charles McBride.

1804
01:42:51,880 --> 01:42:54,920
Speaker 12: But I met Charles fairly recently doing just pro Palestine

1805
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:58,519
Speaker 12: stuff online, and I really liked his work. He's here

1806
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:01,080
Speaker 12: to talk about some things that I think are very

1807
01:43:01,080 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 12: important to like Ukraine, and why helping Ukraine is not

1808
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:07,320
Speaker 12: the same thing as aid to Israel and all that

1809
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:10,400
Speaker 12: good stuff. And yeah, let's just get right into it.

1810
01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 12: I want to know your experience with Ukraine. Can you

1811
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:15,400
Speaker 12: just tell us a little bit about that first?

1812
01:43:17,040 --> 01:43:17,360
Speaker 3: Sure.

1813
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:20,160
Speaker 13: First of all, thank you sharing so much for having

1814
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:23,200
Speaker 13: me on. This has been one of my favorite podcasts

1815
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 13: for a while. So this is kind of a slightly

1816
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:31,639
Speaker 13: surreal moment going into my experience with Ukraine. I double

1817
01:43:31,680 --> 01:43:35,519
Speaker 13: majored in history in comparative religion in college, and I

1818
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 13: was kind of interested in sort of the post Soviet sphere,

1819
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:41,040
Speaker 13: and I worked on some kind of post Soviet issues

1820
01:43:41,080 --> 01:43:41,920
Speaker 13: when I lived.

1821
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 10: In Washington, d C.

1822
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:47,440
Speaker 13: After school, and also was deeply interested in Eastern Orthodox Christianity,

1823
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,680
Speaker 13: which is kind of why I took an interest in

1824
01:43:50,720 --> 01:43:56,679
Speaker 13: that region. So I remember in like twenty fifteen, I

1825
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 13: watched this Vice video called Russian Roulette that popped up

1826
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 13: on my YouTube feed, and it just completely it just

1827
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 13: put Ukraine on the map for me in a way

1828
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:07,600
Speaker 13: that I'd never really thought about before. I thought of

1829
01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:13,639
Speaker 13: it as the Ukraine. Yeah, Yeah, my Muscovite Russian history

1830
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 13: professor had always talked about it as a part of Russia. Yeah,

1831
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:20,839
Speaker 13: And she had denied, you know, I was during the Midaan,

1832
01:44:20,960 --> 01:44:23,120
Speaker 13: the Revolution of Dignity. I was in college, and she

1833
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 13: denied that Ukraine had any autonomy. She echoed all the

1834
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:31,720
Speaker 13: putinesque sort of talking points about CIA intervention and neo

1835
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 13: Nazis and stuff, and I didn't really know what. I

1836
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:40,200
Speaker 13: didn't know at that point. So then I, yeah, I

1837
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:43,600
Speaker 13: got interested in in sort of what was happening in

1838
01:44:43,640 --> 01:44:45,960
Speaker 13: the lead up to the Russian invasion. And I had

1839
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,960
Speaker 13: been following this guy who went over to Syria a

1840
01:44:49,960 --> 01:44:53,439
Speaker 13: couple of years ago named Aidan Aslin, And in my

1841
01:44:53,479 --> 01:44:55,960
Speaker 13: conversations with aid And he'd sort of told me a

1842
01:44:55,960 --> 01:44:59,040
Speaker 13: little bit about kind of what stuff was like in

1843
01:45:00,040 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 13: going on in Ukraine, and I got very interested. I

1844
01:45:02,439 --> 01:45:04,240
Speaker 13: was following him and all of his friends and what

1845
01:45:04,280 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 13: they were doing. And at that point, I had, you know,

1846
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:12,200
Speaker 13: about four or five years of nonprofit humanitarian experience under

1847
01:45:12,200 --> 01:45:14,680
Speaker 13: my belt as long as as well as sort of

1848
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 13: a historical political understanding of the region. And so when

1849
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 13: the war happened, when the full scale invasion happened, I immediately

1850
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:26,479
Speaker 13: started trying to fundraise, trying to help out, trying to educate,

1851
01:45:27,200 --> 01:45:32,080
Speaker 13: and mostly to try and cut through Russian propaganda because

1852
01:45:32,080 --> 01:45:34,960
Speaker 13: there were a lot of people in my sphere who

1853
01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:39,960
Speaker 13: were just retweeting straight up Russian propaganda. They were elevating

1854
01:45:40,960 --> 01:45:43,240
Speaker 13: you know what you and I know who are basically

1855
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:48,080
Speaker 13: Kremlin adjacent individuals in the United States who have sway

1856
01:45:48,160 --> 01:45:51,120
Speaker 13: and leftist circles, some of whom have re emerged in

1857
01:45:51,160 --> 01:45:53,919
Speaker 13: the Palestine discussion, much to my chagrin.

1858
01:45:54,240 --> 01:45:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure we'll talk about that more later.

1859
01:45:58,280 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 3: I would love to.

1860
01:45:58,880 --> 01:45:59,479
Speaker 10: Get into that.

1861
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:02,960
Speaker 13: Yeah, And so, yeah, in my hope was to kind

1862
01:46:02,960 --> 01:46:04,880
Speaker 13: of to do that, and as I was sort of

1863
01:46:04,880 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 13: working with Ukrainian It's one of the things they said is, hey, man,

1864
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:11,880
Speaker 13: everything happens here. You have to be in Ukraine to

1865
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:13,639
Speaker 13: get anything off the ground, So you need to come here.

1866
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:16,000
Speaker 13: And I'm like, are you insane's there's a war going

1867
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:21,799
Speaker 13: on in your country. So I said yes, and yes, yes,

1868
01:46:22,040 --> 01:46:25,360
Speaker 13: I am in retrospect. So second week of the war,

1869
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:28,040
Speaker 13: I booked a plane ticket, flew over there, a crossed

1870
01:46:28,080 --> 01:46:31,320
Speaker 13: the train into Poland, scared out of my mind, got

1871
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:33,560
Speaker 13: in touch with the Ukrainians I've been talking to previously,

1872
01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:36,680
Speaker 13: and after a mad hustle from the train station, was

1873
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:39,800
Speaker 13: very comfortably drinking tea and a cute little apartment in

1874
01:46:39,880 --> 01:46:44,240
Speaker 13: Leviv with somebody's grandmother, and I was like, this is

1875
01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:48,240
Speaker 13: this crazy experience. So I spent two months in Ukraine.

1876
01:46:48,320 --> 01:46:51,000
Speaker 13: At the beginning, my attention was to sort of identify

1877
01:46:51,439 --> 01:46:55,840
Speaker 13: gaps in the medical supply chain, particularly things that were

1878
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,439
Speaker 13: going to be initially overlooked in the mad dash of

1879
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 13: refugees and reset men and all that sort of stuff.

1880
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 13: And one of the things we identified was like prescription

1881
01:47:05,680 --> 01:47:10,080
Speaker 13: medication for people coming from the east to the west.

1882
01:47:10,160 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 13: And yeah, I think it's important that not a lot

1883
01:47:13,000 --> 01:47:15,559
Speaker 13: of realized that people coming from eastern Ukraine, a lot

1884
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:19,439
Speaker 13: of them had never visited cities like Leviv until the

1885
01:47:19,479 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 13: start of full scale invasion, predominantly Russian speakers, and you know,

1886
01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:27,880
Speaker 13: for them, Leviv was almost like going to Poland, and

1887
01:47:27,960 --> 01:47:30,400
Speaker 13: it was a very new thing for them. But you know,

1888
01:47:30,439 --> 01:47:34,120
Speaker 13: your medical issues don't stop just because someone invades their country.

1889
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:37,040
Speaker 13: In fact, oftentimes they get worse. And so what I

1890
01:47:37,040 --> 01:47:39,280
Speaker 13: was trying to do initially was find a way to

1891
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:47,480
Speaker 13: address that, and that led me into contact with Rostaslov Philippinko,

1892
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:50,599
Speaker 13: who's one of my dear friends and the co founder

1893
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:53,880
Speaker 13: of the organization that we started together called Mission Harkiv.

1894
01:47:54,280 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 13: So that organization worked initially on prescription medications and then

1895
01:47:59,240 --> 01:48:04,120
Speaker 13: started distributing high end oncology drugs, which are very difficult

1896
01:48:04,160 --> 01:48:08,360
Speaker 13: to transport, very lucrative to steel, and very difficult to

1897
01:48:08,400 --> 01:48:10,680
Speaker 13: store because they have to be kept at a constant temperature.

1898
01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:14,240
Speaker 13: So we focused on those things while everybody else was

1899
01:48:14,240 --> 01:48:20,040
Speaker 13: focusing on tints and you know, and clothes for refugees

1900
01:48:20,080 --> 01:48:22,600
Speaker 13: and that sort of stuff. And as a result, we

1901
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:24,880
Speaker 13: carved out a very interesting niche in terms of the

1902
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:29,759
Speaker 13: humanitarian response and are still going strong with that today.

1903
01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:32,800
Speaker 13: And so that was initially kind of why I went

1904
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:36,040
Speaker 13: over there for that first two months, and since then

1905
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:40,240
Speaker 13: I've been back over to film a documentary, sort of

1906
01:48:40,280 --> 01:48:45,200
Speaker 13: an artistic short documentary called Note of Defiance, and then

1907
01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 13: I was involved with another documentary project which is hopefully

1908
01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:49,639
Speaker 13: forthcoming in the next year.

1909
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:53,680
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, I don't think I've talked about this on

1910
01:48:53,720 --> 01:48:57,439
Speaker 2: the show, but kind of my relationship with Ukraine and

1911
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:00,640
Speaker 2: eventually going over there and starting to report on what

1912
01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:04,040
Speaker 2: was happening started weirdly enough as a result of the

1913
01:49:04,040 --> 01:49:06,520
Speaker 2: fact that I had friends who went to the big

1914
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:09,759
Speaker 2: burning Man event in Nevada, and I wound up traveling

1915
01:49:09,760 --> 01:49:13,120
Speaker 2: with one of them in India, this Ukrainian woman who

1916
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:17,479
Speaker 2: lived in the Bay and when stuff started in late

1917
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:20,040
Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, which is when the Revolution of Dignity is

1918
01:49:20,360 --> 01:49:22,400
Speaker 2: kind of the common Ukrainian name for it. You'll also

1919
01:49:22,400 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 2: hear it referred to as like the twenty fourteen revolution

1920
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:27,840
Speaker 2: of the Madan Revolution. They're all talking about the same thing,

1921
01:49:27,920 --> 01:49:30,760
Speaker 2: which is when the guy who was the President of

1922
01:49:30,880 --> 01:49:33,960
Speaker 2: Ukraine trying to make himself into a dictator. This dude,

1923
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:38,240
Speaker 2: Victor Yanikovich, who is this incredibly wealthy oligarch who literally

1924
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:41,280
Speaker 2: built a golden palace for himself with like a fake

1925
01:49:41,400 --> 01:49:44,040
Speaker 2: lake that had a boat on it, that was a restaurant.

1926
01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:44,120
Speaker 10: For just him.

1927
01:49:44,120 --> 01:49:46,840
Speaker 2: For like the level of rich oligarch asshole we're talking

1928
01:49:46,880 --> 01:49:51,160
Speaker 2: about here, cracked down really brutally on a student protest,

1929
01:49:51,439 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 2: which it kind of culminated in this kind of escalating

1930
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 2: occupation of the Center Square in the capitol that basically

1931
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,280
Speaker 2: got built into an ice fortress and like the middle

1932
01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:04,759
Speaker 2: of the Ukrainian winter. This very very like pretty epic

1933
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 2: story of successful resistance because this guy is eventually forced

1934
01:50:09,040 --> 01:50:12,160
Speaker 2: out the police riot unit, the bearcoot who had done

1935
01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:15,640
Speaker 2: had been literally killing people by dropping them naked, and

1936
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:18,800
Speaker 2: like ice drifts and stuff, are disbanded. It's a really

1937
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:21,720
Speaker 2: remarkable story and I just kind of fell into it

1938
01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:25,000
Speaker 2: because my friend connected me with a couple of people

1939
01:50:25,040 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 2: who were on the ground there who were friends of hers,

1940
01:50:27,280 --> 01:50:31,240
Speaker 2: who were Ukrainians in the tech industry who traveled to

1941
01:50:31,920 --> 01:50:34,400
Speaker 2: the US every year or so for Burning Man and

1942
01:50:34,479 --> 01:50:37,719
Speaker 2: so when this occupation of the Maidan started, they were like, well,

1943
01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:40,559
Speaker 2: we know how to, like we're used to making soup

1944
01:50:40,640 --> 01:50:43,120
Speaker 2: and food for large numbers of people and like running

1945
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:45,639
Speaker 2: little chunks of a camp, so we'll just start We'll

1946
01:50:45,680 --> 01:50:47,759
Speaker 2: just do the thing that we do at our camp

1947
01:50:47,760 --> 01:50:50,240
Speaker 2: out over in Maidan. They were part of the thing

1948
01:50:50,240 --> 01:50:52,240
Speaker 2: they were part of was the Automidon, which was this

1949
01:50:52,400 --> 01:50:56,440
Speaker 2: like mobile unit of resupply where people would like basically

1950
01:50:56,760 --> 01:51:00,040
Speaker 2: drive supplies to and from different areas of occupation in

1951
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 2: the city. It was a pretty dangerous job as things escalated,

1952
01:51:03,240 --> 01:51:04,759
Speaker 2: but that was my ind and I wound up talking

1953
01:51:04,800 --> 01:51:07,760
Speaker 2: to like, I don't know, twenty or thirty people like

1954
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:11,160
Speaker 2: actively the entire time the occupation was going on. There's

1955
01:51:11,160 --> 01:51:13,639
Speaker 2: like two folks I never was able to get back

1956
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 2: in touch with who just kind of like dropped off

1957
01:51:15,920 --> 01:51:18,200
Speaker 2: at a certain point. Like it was a really sketchy

1958
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:19,680
Speaker 2: time for a lot of people. But I wound up

1959
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:23,920
Speaker 2: traveling there the year after, right after the early part

1960
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 2: of the invasion, started to report from Avdifka, which is,

1961
01:51:27,200 --> 01:51:29,960
Speaker 2: you know, was had been under siege for a year

1962
01:51:30,120 --> 01:51:32,760
Speaker 2: at that point and is still under siege today, for

1963
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:35,720
Speaker 2: an idea of like that's a decade now basically that

1964
01:51:36,240 --> 01:51:38,479
Speaker 2: this this little town has been shelled.

1965
01:51:39,520 --> 01:51:43,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, anyway, Yeah, I didn't know that about burning Man.

1966
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:45,759
Speaker 12: That's well, it was a weird.

1967
01:51:45,520 --> 01:51:47,639
Speaker 2: Way to get connected to it. Yeah. I just got

1968
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:50,280
Speaker 2: a message from this friend of mine who was like, hey,

1969
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,519
Speaker 2: somebodies from my camp are like trying to overthrow their government.

1970
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:54,519
Speaker 3: Do you want to talk to them.

1971
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:57,280
Speaker 10: I was like, well, yeah, that sounds pretty dope.

1972
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:01,559
Speaker 3: Yes, that's your remo. That's wild.

1973
01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:04,439
Speaker 13: You know what burning Man really does apply It provides,

1974
01:52:04,800 --> 01:52:07,599
Speaker 13: It really connects all, doesn't it. I have some weird

1975
01:52:07,680 --> 01:52:09,559
Speaker 13: like tangential burning I've never been.

1976
01:52:09,439 --> 01:52:11,680
Speaker 2: But I have like neither of I actually yeah.

1977
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:14,000
Speaker 13: I'd like Burning Man devotees who play a large role

1978
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:15,679
Speaker 13: in my life and it's just very interesting.

1979
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:18,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the weird little connections you get. And I

1980
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:20,840
Speaker 2: was kind of disappointed, you know. To me, this was

1981
01:52:20,920 --> 01:52:24,040
Speaker 2: because the whole time, especially like the late twenty thirteen

1982
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:27,439
Speaker 2: early twenty fourteen, as this was going on, I was like, well,

1983
01:52:27,439 --> 01:52:29,960
Speaker 2: they're probably all going to get killed, right, like just

1984
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:34,240
Speaker 2: you know, we were several years in the Syrian Civil

1985
01:52:34,280 --> 01:52:37,640
Speaker 2: War at this point, Like I was not optimistic, and

1986
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:40,680
Speaker 2: that's not what happened. And then there was like this

1987
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:43,960
Speaker 2: counterpoint of realizing a few years later that oh, a

1988
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:45,960
Speaker 2: shocking number of people on the left think it was

1989
01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:50,960
Speaker 2: a bad thing that they overthrew their government. Yeah, which, yeah,

1990
01:52:51,040 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 2: I guess gets us into like the kind of thing

1991
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:55,960
Speaker 2: you wanted to talk about, which is the difference in

1992
01:52:56,000 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 2: providing military aid to Ukraine versus Israel. Yeah, which I

1993
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:05,439
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, from my standpoint, it's pretty obvious, right, Like,

1994
01:53:06,479 --> 01:53:10,200
Speaker 2: one country is fighting a military that has a massive

1995
01:53:10,200 --> 01:53:13,639
Speaker 2: industrial base, much more powerful than it and is killing

1996
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:18,080
Speaker 2: large numbers of civilians, and they have proven their ability

1997
01:53:18,120 --> 01:53:23,720
Speaker 2: with military aid to react effectively to this invasion. And

1998
01:53:23,760 --> 01:53:26,080
Speaker 2: the other case, I don't think I need to explain

1999
01:53:26,120 --> 01:53:28,439
Speaker 2: which one, but it's Israel is a country with a

2000
01:53:28,439 --> 01:53:31,400
Speaker 2: massive arms industry that is fighting people who have no

2001
01:53:31,560 --> 01:53:35,640
Speaker 2: arms industry of any kind and primarily killing civilians. So

2002
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:38,439
Speaker 2: I can very easily justify one of those groups of

2003
01:53:38,439 --> 01:53:40,960
Speaker 2: people getting US weapons and one of them not needing

2004
01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 2: any additional weapons.

2005
01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:44,479
Speaker 10: That's right, ye.

2006
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:47,680
Speaker 13: See, Robert. None of that is justified because of the

2007
01:53:47,720 --> 01:53:53,200
Speaker 13: existence of the Ashok Battalion. There is no right for

2008
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:56,599
Speaker 13: any Ukrainian grandmother to get access to her insulin because

2009
01:53:56,640 --> 01:53:59,400
Speaker 13: there's a couple of Nea Nazis that were stationed in Mariople.

2010
01:54:00,200 --> 01:54:03,160
Speaker 13: But truly, that is that is about how sophisticated. A

2011
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:06,920
Speaker 13: lot of the leftist critiques of the Ukraine of supporting

2012
01:54:07,040 --> 01:54:09,760
Speaker 13: Ukraine are I think a lot of it comes in

2013
01:54:10,640 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 13: one of the things that I talk about, and I

2014
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:15,519
Speaker 13: talked with Sharin about this when we went on Instagram

2015
01:54:15,560 --> 01:54:19,160
Speaker 13: Live together. Is that a lot of leftists seem to

2016
01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 13: live in kind of a weird, little cinematic universe where

2017
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:24,759
Speaker 13: only the US and Israel can be the bad guys,

2018
01:54:25,360 --> 01:54:27,880
Speaker 13: and by extension, France and the UK, you know, and

2019
01:54:28,040 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 13: YadA YadA. But as a result of that, they have

2020
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:35,960
Speaker 13: this just really strange view of global affairs that literally

2021
01:54:36,000 --> 01:54:39,320
Speaker 13: no one in the countries they're talking about share. Somehow,

2022
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:43,200
Speaker 13: Russia and Iran and China and Cuba are all aligned

2023
01:54:43,280 --> 01:54:46,839
Speaker 13: in a sort of anti imperial axis because they oppose

2024
01:54:46,920 --> 01:54:50,480
Speaker 13: the interests of NATO and the United States. And I

2025
01:54:50,520 --> 01:54:55,920
Speaker 13: think that's just so, that's that's patently ridiculous, but it

2026
01:54:55,960 --> 01:54:59,360
Speaker 13: plays a big role in conversations like what's going on

2027
01:54:59,360 --> 01:55:03,560
Speaker 13: in Palestine. Yes, people will invoke, well, why are you

2028
01:55:03,560 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 13: giving all this money to Ukraine instead of giving money

2029
01:55:06,560 --> 01:55:10,040
Speaker 13: to people the relief for the Maui fires, or you know,

2030
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:13,640
Speaker 13: doing why are we doing medical medicare for all? So

2031
01:55:13,680 --> 01:55:16,960
Speaker 13: it's like it's a convenient because it's the military industrial complex,

2032
01:55:17,080 --> 01:55:19,120
Speaker 13: it's the Iraq War, it's all these things that we

2033
01:55:19,160 --> 01:55:22,640
Speaker 13: as leftists were taught to hate. But it's they're being

2034
01:55:22,680 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 13: used for good. It's like America is actually being the

2035
01:55:25,200 --> 01:55:27,640
Speaker 13: arsenal democracy and doing the thing that we did in

2036
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,880
Speaker 13: World War Two that helped the Soviet Union march into Berlin.

2037
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:33,560
Speaker 2: Well, and it's also, I think an important thing to

2038
01:55:33,600 --> 01:55:36,600
Speaker 2: notice when we talk about the it's always framed as

2039
01:55:36,640 --> 01:55:39,040
Speaker 2: the US is giving this amount of money to Ukraine.

2040
01:55:39,480 --> 01:55:43,920
Speaker 2: What's what's happening is we are taking stockpiles of arms

2041
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:46,600
Speaker 2: we already have worth that much money, and we are

2042
01:55:46,640 --> 01:55:49,880
Speaker 2: sending them there like they're not right like that that

2043
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:54,520
Speaker 2: is overwhelmingly like the the what kind of aid we

2044
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:57,680
Speaker 2: are sending over So these are extant weapons that are

2045
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:02,000
Speaker 2: sitting in the US doing nothing and being like the Bradley's.

2046
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:04,400
Speaker 2: We didn't just build a bunch of new Bradley's. We

2047
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:06,879
Speaker 2: had a shitload of them. We weren't using them anymore

2048
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:09,360
Speaker 2: because they were not very useful in the conflicts that

2049
01:56:09,760 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 2: we were fighting.

2050
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 3: Right that Bradley is Mrs Yeah.

2051
01:56:13,640 --> 01:56:16,400
Speaker 13: The United States is like really itching to like need

2052
01:56:16,480 --> 01:56:19,000
Speaker 13: high Mars right now. No, Like, all of this stuff

2053
01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:22,120
Speaker 13: we're sending to them has been mothballed for basically since

2054
01:56:22,120 --> 01:56:24,600
Speaker 13: the Goal War, and people don't understand that.

2055
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:27,040
Speaker 2: It is funny to me to imagine, like, yeah, let's

2056
01:56:27,040 --> 01:56:29,880
Speaker 2: send that stuff to Maui for the fires. That's what

2057
01:56:29,920 --> 01:56:33,160
Speaker 2: they need, is they need long range artillery. That's really

2058
01:56:33,160 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 2: gonna that's really gonna help them heal.

2059
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:40,160
Speaker 13: I'm in favor of sending lethal aid to the indigenous

2060
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:42,120
Speaker 13: residents of Maui, but I think that's it, that's.

2061
01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 5: It.

2062
01:56:43,600 --> 01:56:46,520
Speaker 2: You talked me into it. And I think we have

2063
01:56:46,680 --> 01:56:49,240
Speaker 2: enough mothballed tanks for both of these causes.

2064
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:51,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, I think.

2065
01:56:50,840 --> 01:56:54,360
Speaker 12: For me, the comparisons for Ukraine and Palestine, it started

2066
01:56:54,400 --> 01:56:57,800
Speaker 12: with how it was presented in the media. It just

2067
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:00,160
Speaker 12: it rought people the wrong way when the Ukraine Median

2068
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:02,400
Speaker 12: struggle was presented in a certain way and the Palestinian

2069
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,600
Speaker 12: struggle was not, and people can draw some draw a

2070
01:57:05,640 --> 01:57:10,040
Speaker 12: comparison like whiteness and all this stuff. Absolutely, yeah, and

2071
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 12: I just it got me, really, it really irritates me

2072
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:14,720
Speaker 12: because it's not like the Oppression Olympics, Like we're not

2073
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:20,240
Speaker 12: trying to compare or demonize Ukrainians. We should demonize the

2074
01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:23,680
Speaker 12: media for not representing Palestinians in the right way. But

2075
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:26,160
Speaker 12: I think that is kind of the origin of the

2076
01:57:26,160 --> 01:57:27,280
Speaker 12: comparison that I saw.

2077
01:57:27,360 --> 01:57:31,760
Speaker 2: Anyway, Yeah, and I think that's that's really worth digging into,

2078
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:35,160
Speaker 2: because there's a couple of First off, it is absolutely

2079
01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:39,360
Speaker 2: an injustice that Ukrainian resistance and that light is seen

2080
01:57:39,440 --> 01:57:43,680
Speaker 2: as inherently just and not just. Palestinian resistance is demonized

2081
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:46,560
Speaker 2: or often ignored, But like all sorts of resistance by

2082
01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:49,920
Speaker 2: people who are being harmed around the world, it partially

2083
01:57:49,960 --> 01:57:51,760
Speaker 2: is or in large part as a result of like

2084
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 2: US and other Western countries policies are not seen in

2085
01:57:55,080 --> 01:57:57,840
Speaker 2: the same light as Ukrainian resistance. I certainly agree with

2086
01:57:57,920 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 2: that stance. That's not the refault of anybody in Ukraine. Right,

2087
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 2: this is we are not talking about a country that

2088
01:58:04,160 --> 01:58:07,720
Speaker 2: exercises power on the global stage. We are talking about

2089
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:13,120
Speaker 2: a cash poor nation that has been struggling with Russian

2090
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:16,280
Speaker 2: imperialism for most of the time that most of the

2091
01:58:16,320 --> 01:58:19,120
Speaker 2: people listening this, actually all of the time that everybody

2092
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 2: listening to this has been alive in one form or another, right, Yes,

2093
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:25,360
Speaker 2: And so I think it's perfectly fair to point out

2094
01:58:25,520 --> 01:58:28,879
Speaker 2: the ways in which the media reports unequally on these conflicts,

2095
01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:31,440
Speaker 2: on what's happening in Palestine, what's happening on stuff like Buka,

2096
01:58:31,720 --> 01:58:34,440
Speaker 2: and on the mass slaughter of civilians in Gaza, right,

2097
01:58:34,520 --> 01:58:36,800
Speaker 2: I think that that is worth pointing out, But it's

2098
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:40,680
Speaker 2: also not worth blaming Ukrainians over they are not participating

2099
01:58:40,720 --> 01:58:43,680
Speaker 2: in that just by saying, hey, it's bad that our

2100
01:58:43,680 --> 01:58:47,480
Speaker 2: civilians are being massacred by rockets, right and other forms

2101
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:52,160
Speaker 2: of weaponry. By the way, like that that's not on them, Yeah.

2102
01:58:52,120 --> 01:58:54,840
Speaker 13: I think so also kind of flip that on its head.

2103
01:58:55,080 --> 01:58:57,360
Speaker 13: I mean, this part of it is the media narrative.

2104
01:58:57,400 --> 01:59:00,800
Speaker 13: You know, it's easier. Ukrainians are mostly hot white people

2105
01:59:01,280 --> 01:59:03,320
Speaker 13: in the eye of the Western media, and it's easy

2106
01:59:03,360 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 13: to cheer for the hot white people who have you know,

2107
01:59:06,360 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 13: everyone everyone. A lot of people have been to Ukrainian restaurant,

2108
01:59:09,640 --> 01:59:12,360
Speaker 13: they're familiar with some Ukrainian maybe songs, so they have

2109
01:59:12,400 --> 01:59:13,960
Speaker 13: friends if they live in a place like la or

2110
01:59:14,040 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 13: New York, you know Ukrainians, you're familiar maybe even with

2111
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:20,640
Speaker 13: some Ukrainian media. And it's and it's kind of like

2112
01:59:20,840 --> 01:59:23,240
Speaker 13: this accessible thing, you know. And also like there's other

2113
01:59:23,280 --> 01:59:25,080
Speaker 13: aspects of it to which you're even stranger, which is

2114
01:59:25,120 --> 01:59:29,440
Speaker 13: that Ukraines produces like a huge amount of the world's

2115
01:59:29,440 --> 01:59:32,960
Speaker 13: fashion models. Like that's a very accessible thing. For people

2116
01:59:33,000 --> 01:59:34,880
Speaker 13: to get behind in the nice liberal media. And you

2117
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,600
Speaker 13: could see these in these initial broadcasts being like I've

2118
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:40,880
Speaker 13: never seen anything like this with seeing all these European

2119
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 13: looking refugees and it's like a right, they're multlearly.

2120
01:59:44,200 --> 01:59:46,480
Speaker 12: Like that where they're these are not Arabs like they

2121
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:49,040
Speaker 12: say it with their chests, you know, like these these

2122
01:59:49,040 --> 01:59:50,080
Speaker 12: are people like us.

2123
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 13: But for the flip side of that is that that

2124
01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:58,320
Speaker 13: leftists are reluctant to be charitable to Ukrainians because they

2125
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:00,520
Speaker 13: also see them as hot white people who don't need

2126
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:06,960
Speaker 13: any help. Yeah, and they're unwilling to admit that Ukrainian Ukrainians,

2127
02:00:07,120 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 13: like Gosans, also suffer from a settler colonial state as

2128
02:00:11,760 --> 02:00:15,560
Speaker 13: their neighbor with a history of ethnically cleansing and genociding them.

2129
02:00:15,720 --> 02:00:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean part of the reason for that is

2130
02:00:17,920 --> 02:00:20,960
Speaker 2: that the neighbor that ethnically cleansed in gen well one

2131
02:00:20,960 --> 02:00:23,800
Speaker 2: of them, because actually they had several neighbors ethnically cleansing

2132
02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:27,360
Speaker 2: genocide them. But the Soviet Union like did a significant

2133
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:30,160
Speaker 2: amount of that during the Holy Dulmar. Now Germans also

2134
02:00:30,200 --> 02:00:33,760
Speaker 2: carried out a massive genocide in Ukraine like and by

2135
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 2: the way, a huge number of the Red Army soldiers

2136
02:00:36,600 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 2: who successfully helped defeat the Nazis were Ukrainians. As a note,

2137
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:43,880
Speaker 2: this is you often see this thing where people will

2138
02:00:43,880 --> 02:00:47,520
Speaker 2: point out there were a significant number of Ukrainians that

2139
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:50,520
Speaker 2: fought with the Nazis, and they tend to ignore that, like, yeah,

2140
02:00:50,520 --> 02:00:52,760
Speaker 2: and there were even more Ukrainians who fought with the

2141
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 2: Red Army. Like both of those things happened. It was

2142
02:00:55,840 --> 02:00:58,080
Speaker 2: a world war and Ukraine was right in the middle

2143
02:00:58,120 --> 02:01:01,200
Speaker 2: of it. It's a very ugly situation, and it kind

2144
02:01:01,200 --> 02:01:03,240
Speaker 2: of comes down to this inability of a lot of

2145
02:01:03,280 --> 02:01:08,800
Speaker 2: people to not even nuanced to care about accuracy when

2146
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:12,839
Speaker 2: that accuracy is not like ideologically convenient, when it points

2147
02:01:12,840 --> 02:01:15,720
Speaker 2: to some of the ugliness and messiness of war. I

2148
02:01:17,040 --> 02:01:20,520
Speaker 2: find that very frustrating. Like I sympathize with because I

2149
02:01:20,560 --> 02:01:23,839
Speaker 2: was reporting on the Syrian refugee crisis from the refugee

2150
02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:27,960
Speaker 2: trail right after actually I was in Ukraine, and it

2151
02:01:28,040 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 2: is unfair that like Ukrainian refugees were treated differently. But

2152
02:01:32,360 --> 02:01:34,520
Speaker 2: the people to blame for that is the news media,

2153
02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:38,720
Speaker 2: not refugees who have lost their homes. In fact, I

2154
02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:43,640
Speaker 2: suspect that a lot of Ukrainians have a different attitude

2155
02:01:43,640 --> 02:01:46,720
Speaker 2: themselves towards the suffering that they witness during that period

2156
02:01:46,760 --> 02:01:49,040
Speaker 2: of time because they've now been through it. It's just

2157
02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:51,400
Speaker 2: like a human thing now, you know what that's like.

2158
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:56,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean as a Syrian person who oh, for

2159
02:01:56,760 --> 02:02:00,720
Speaker 12: the past like over a decade, I really really fucking

2160
02:02:00,720 --> 02:02:02,880
Speaker 12: got on my nerves every time I would see them

2161
02:02:03,000 --> 02:02:04,800
Speaker 12: not talk about Syria, or when they did it was

2162
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:09,120
Speaker 12: not a good way. And then when they started really

2163
02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:12,560
Speaker 12: embracing Ukrainian refugees or talking about them in a different way,

2164
02:02:12,600 --> 02:02:14,400
Speaker 12: I'm not gonna lie, it made me mad, but not

2165
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:18,720
Speaker 12: at Ukrainians. Like I think even now, we should have

2166
02:02:18,760 --> 02:02:20,600
Speaker 12: criticized the media back then, but like they're doing the

2167
02:02:20,600 --> 02:02:23,520
Speaker 12: same thing now with their fucking headlines about Israel and Palestine.

2168
02:02:23,560 --> 02:02:28,040
Speaker 12: It's always how it's presented versus the people it's presenting.

2169
02:02:28,120 --> 02:02:30,520
Speaker 12: Like when someone when some dumb newscaster is standing in

2170
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:33,560
Speaker 12: front of a group of Ukrainian refugees behind him and

2171
02:02:33,600 --> 02:02:35,720
Speaker 12: he's like, these are not Arabs, these are white people.

2172
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:38,920
Speaker 12: They didn't say that he did, so I don't know.

2173
02:02:39,200 --> 02:02:43,600
Speaker 13: Yeah, And also like I encourage everyone to ask Ukrainian,

2174
02:02:43,720 --> 02:02:47,440
Speaker 13: particularly Eastern Ukrainians' opinions on the Western media and like

2175
02:02:47,520 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 13: Westerners in general, because two years into this war, they

2176
02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:52,920
Speaker 13: have a lot of them, and I imagine that they

2177
02:02:52,960 --> 02:02:54,960
Speaker 13: would you would find a lot of the sentiments shared

2178
02:02:55,040 --> 02:02:57,720
Speaker 13: by the Ukrainians. They don't always appreciate how they're portrayed

2179
02:02:57,840 --> 02:03:01,000
Speaker 13: in the Western media, as you know, brave defenders of

2180
02:03:01,040 --> 02:03:05,000
Speaker 13: their country or sook covered refugees coming off of a railcar.

2181
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:08,640
Speaker 13: You know, they have a lot of opinions on these

2182
02:03:08,640 --> 02:03:13,200
Speaker 13: sorts of things. They feel patronized, they feel babied in

2183
02:03:13,240 --> 02:03:16,480
Speaker 13: some senses, and they feel like they will be ultimately

2184
02:03:16,520 --> 02:03:20,240
Speaker 13: abandoned by us, which is already coming to pass. Yeah,

2185
02:03:20,520 --> 02:03:24,120
Speaker 13: and as the attention shifts to things like Gaza, you know,

2186
02:03:24,160 --> 02:03:26,520
Speaker 13: it's difficult for them to feel like they have any friends.

2187
02:03:26,760 --> 02:03:29,200
Speaker 12: Yeah, no, I want to get into that. But let's

2188
02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:31,760
Speaker 12: take our first break, and yes, we will jump back

2189
02:03:31,800 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 12: in and we're back. Okay. We had just been talking

2190
02:03:46,240 --> 02:03:52,240
Speaker 12: about how the support for Ukraine has kind of changed recently.

2191
02:03:52,280 --> 02:03:54,200
Speaker 12: Can you get into that little bit.

2192
02:03:55,720 --> 02:03:59,200
Speaker 13: I'm not even necessarily sure that it changed so recently.

2193
02:03:59,400 --> 02:04:02,520
Speaker 13: I remembering over there and it was wall to wall

2194
02:04:02,560 --> 02:04:06,080
Speaker 13: coverage from the moment I set foot from the moment

2195
02:04:06,120 --> 02:04:09,600
Speaker 13: it started to really up until the Oscars and the

2196
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:12,600
Speaker 13: Chris Rock slap is what we all talked about as

2197
02:04:12,720 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 13: last oxers, like this is yeah, the last Oscars and

2198
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:20,200
Speaker 13: the Chris Rock slap and all the attention that that got.

2199
02:04:20,400 --> 02:04:23,720
Speaker 13: Was the moment that a lot of the volunteers talked about,

2200
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 13: is the moment where people started to want to forget

2201
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:29,200
Speaker 13: about Ukraine. There was still a lot of coverage, but

2202
02:04:29,320 --> 02:04:31,920
Speaker 13: suddenly it was like, you don't have to be obsessed

2203
02:04:32,000 --> 02:04:35,800
Speaker 13: with Ukraine. You know, Ukraine's now a second page story

2204
02:04:35,840 --> 02:04:38,560
Speaker 13: instead of a first page story. That was around the

2205
02:04:38,560 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 13: same time that the Russians withdrew from Kiev, So suddenly

2206
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:45,680
Speaker 13: there wasn't there wasn't this expectation that Kiev was going

2207
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:49,320
Speaker 13: to fall and the capital be taken in Zelensky would

2208
02:04:49,320 --> 02:04:53,240
Speaker 13: be captured, and it started to slow up. Even then,

2209
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 13: you know, the donations dried up, the attention dried up,

2210
02:04:56,640 --> 02:04:58,040
Speaker 13: and by the time I went there in the winter

2211
02:04:58,120 --> 02:05:01,120
Speaker 13: of twenty twenty three last year, it was like people

2212
02:05:01,160 --> 02:05:03,080
Speaker 13: already wanted to forget. I mean, I live in Los

2213
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:05,720
Speaker 13: Angeles and a lot of people here were saying things like,

2214
02:05:05,720 --> 02:05:09,720
Speaker 13: oh wow, is that still going on? Really nice, well

2215
02:05:09,800 --> 02:05:12,240
Speaker 13: meaning people who knew I'd been over there. They were

2216
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 13: just like, is that you know, is that still a

2217
02:05:14,520 --> 02:05:15,480
Speaker 13: war going on?

2218
02:05:16,240 --> 02:05:16,440
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2219
02:05:16,480 --> 02:05:18,680
Speaker 13: Here we are in twenty days. It's going to be

2220
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:22,600
Speaker 13: two years of this. Yeah, my friends over there are exhausted,

2221
02:05:22,680 --> 02:05:25,760
Speaker 13: and they don't They're now a page eight story.

2222
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:26,880
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2223
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:30,160
Speaker 2: And it's this comes back to like how Americans like

2224
02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:34,120
Speaker 2: to think about conflict. We have an enormous appetite for

2225
02:05:35,080 --> 02:05:38,680
Speaker 2: war and for you know, a particularly what we consider

2226
02:05:38,720 --> 02:05:41,960
Speaker 2: a just struggle for up to a couple of months, right,

2227
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:45,720
Speaker 2: and then people were very excited when, yeah, the Russians

2228
02:05:45,760 --> 02:05:49,440
Speaker 2: invade everyone. The expectation, both from like military experts in

2229
02:05:49,480 --> 02:05:52,160
Speaker 2: the West and from certainly civilians is that like Russia's

2230
02:05:52,160 --> 02:05:54,600
Speaker 2: going to crush them immediately, and then they don't. There's

2231
02:05:54,600 --> 02:05:58,080
Speaker 2: this real upset, come from behind, underdog victory and Americans

2232
02:05:58,120 --> 02:06:00,720
Speaker 2: love that, but then like it, it's not a total

2233
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:03,880
Speaker 2: immediate victory, and in fact, it turns into at this

2234
02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:08,640
Speaker 2: point and really really brutal, ugly slow war of attrition

2235
02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:13,000
Speaker 2: and maneuver, which is like what war is, right, Like

2236
02:06:13,040 --> 02:06:16,400
Speaker 2: that that's how any sort of near peer conflict is

2237
02:06:16,440 --> 02:06:19,440
Speaker 2: going to boil out. And it's not a kind of

2238
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:21,520
Speaker 2: thing that is resolved quickly, and it's not a kind

2239
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:24,920
Speaker 2: of thing that is resolved without cost. And as soon

2240
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:28,080
Speaker 2: as that became clear Americans, it didn't. It doesn't fit

2241
02:06:28,160 --> 02:06:31,080
Speaker 2: into that like ninety minute Hollywood vision of how a

2242
02:06:31,160 --> 02:06:33,520
Speaker 2: conflict is supposed to go right. There was no The

2243
02:06:33,600 --> 02:06:36,280
Speaker 2: Ukrainians didn't blow up a death star and end it right,

2244
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:38,920
Speaker 2: like I mean, actually that's not what happens in the

2245
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:41,800
Speaker 2: movies either, but like it's it's still it was not

2246
02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:45,000
Speaker 2: the quick, clean end that a lot of people were

2247
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:48,920
Speaker 2: expecting and hoping for. And as a result, people are like, well,

2248
02:06:49,360 --> 02:06:51,480
Speaker 2: now it's a quagmire and now it's like we have

2249
02:06:51,560 --> 02:06:54,360
Speaker 2: to start looking for some way out of this thing,

2250
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:58,000
Speaker 2: which by the way, has cost us very little. Like

2251
02:06:58,040 --> 02:07:01,480
Speaker 2: my stance on like when is this over is like, well,

2252
02:07:01,520 --> 02:07:05,080
Speaker 2: I guess when Ukraine says it's over, right, Like if

2253
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:08,320
Speaker 2: the Ukrainians want to come to the negotiating table and

2254
02:07:08,440 --> 02:07:11,600
Speaker 2: negotiating into hostilities, then like that's their business. But up

2255
02:07:11,640 --> 02:07:14,360
Speaker 2: until that point, I think the business of the United

2256
02:07:14,400 --> 02:07:18,360
Speaker 2: States is to continue to meet our treaty obligations, which

2257
02:07:18,360 --> 02:07:20,960
Speaker 2: we should we should note like the United States and

2258
02:07:21,080 --> 02:07:24,960
Speaker 2: NATO are obligated to support Ukraine in a war over

2259
02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:29,880
Speaker 2: its sovereignty because they gave up their nukes with that understanding, right,

2260
02:07:30,000 --> 02:07:30,320
Speaker 2: this is.

2261
02:07:30,240 --> 02:07:31,879
Speaker 3: What happened when Retail the country.

2262
02:07:32,000 --> 02:07:34,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we said you give up your nukes and

2263
02:07:34,280 --> 02:07:36,200
Speaker 2: we got your back, like this is this was the

2264
02:07:36,240 --> 02:07:39,240
Speaker 2: promise we made And as far as I'm concerned, that's

2265
02:07:39,280 --> 02:07:41,880
Speaker 2: the only interest I haven't like. My answer is like,

2266
02:07:41,880 --> 02:07:43,600
Speaker 2: how long should we support them? Well, as long as

2267
02:07:43,600 --> 02:07:45,640
Speaker 2: they're fighting, and.

2268
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:49,000
Speaker 13: We've been keeping that promise for the cost of five

2269
02:07:49,080 --> 02:07:52,200
Speaker 13: percent of our defense budget. And like you mentioned earlier,

2270
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:55,480
Speaker 13: it's it's already stuff that's mothballed since the Gulf War,

2271
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:57,720
Speaker 13: sitting around waiting to be used.

2272
02:07:58,000 --> 02:07:58,200
Speaker 5: You know.

2273
02:07:58,240 --> 02:08:00,000
Speaker 10: I mean the idea of giving them F sixteen.

2274
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:05,040
Speaker 13: Every country in the world, practically, at least in the

2275
02:08:05,120 --> 02:08:07,320
Speaker 13: NATO Alliance, it seems like everyone has an F sixteen.

2276
02:08:07,360 --> 02:08:10,240
Speaker 13: I think we're giving them a turkey now too, Like

2277
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:12,880
Speaker 13: it's not a big deal to give a couple of

2278
02:08:12,920 --> 02:08:16,080
Speaker 13: F sixteens to the Ukrainians or a couple of Bradleys

2279
02:08:16,400 --> 02:08:19,640
Speaker 13: or Abrams or what have you. And I think that people,

2280
02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:24,000
Speaker 13: especially on the right, but also on the left, who

2281
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:26,160
Speaker 13: get obsessed over the amount of money that we're sending

2282
02:08:26,280 --> 02:08:28,360
Speaker 13: or the amount of equipment in personnel. Especially when they

2283
02:08:28,440 --> 02:08:31,879
Speaker 13: see these stories about corruption, they don't they don't understand

2284
02:08:31,880 --> 02:08:34,600
Speaker 13: the scale of how small this actually is relative to

2285
02:08:34,600 --> 02:08:39,560
Speaker 13: the United States other commitments, like to Israel, and they

2286
02:08:39,600 --> 02:08:43,880
Speaker 13: get sort of myopically focused on this and they use

2287
02:08:43,880 --> 02:08:46,200
Speaker 13: it as a reason to dislike Ukraine. The Right will

2288
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:48,600
Speaker 13: never like Ukraine because Zelensky was the guy who made

2289
02:08:48,600 --> 02:08:50,920
Speaker 13: Trump look bad and got him impeached. I think it's

2290
02:08:50,920 --> 02:08:53,800
Speaker 13: that simple. Yeah, it's wild that like well, also, I

2291
02:08:53,800 --> 02:08:56,040
Speaker 13: mean the Russian interference and stuff. You know, the Republican

2292
02:08:56,040 --> 02:08:58,680
Speaker 13: Party now resembles Russia more. But it's wild that Republicans,

2293
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:00,800
Speaker 13: you know, thirty years ago were super anti Russia and

2294
02:09:00,840 --> 02:09:03,520
Speaker 13: now the Russia's best friend, and they think Ukraine are

2295
02:09:03,720 --> 02:09:07,400
Speaker 13: sort of Satanist whatever, yeah, to and on corrupt people.

2296
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:12,200
Speaker 2: And it's to kind of emphasize how small five percent

2297
02:09:12,240 --> 02:09:16,200
Speaker 2: of the Defense Department budget is the Pentagon. This is

2298
02:09:16,240 --> 02:09:19,640
Speaker 2: from like a twenty twenty two story. The Pentagon can't

2299
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:23,800
Speaker 2: account for several trillion dollars in assets, which doesn't mean

2300
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:26,160
Speaker 2: we don't fully know where they are, but it means

2301
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:30,080
Speaker 2: that like Pentagon record keeping has sort of like lost

2302
02:09:30,680 --> 02:09:34,120
Speaker 2: huge amounts of assets over the years. At the moment,

2303
02:09:34,520 --> 02:09:38,640
Speaker 2: like right now, the Pentagon, like as of November twenty sixteen,

2304
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:41,200
Speaker 2: had failed six audits in a row, and as far

2305
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:42,760
Speaker 2: as I can tell, I don't think they've actually ever

2306
02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:46,080
Speaker 2: passed an audit of like all of their resources. Like

2307
02:09:46,440 --> 02:09:50,440
Speaker 2: there's huge amounts trillions of dollars in assets that like

2308
02:09:50,520 --> 02:09:54,960
Speaker 2: we can't fully document. It's it's when you think about

2309
02:09:54,960 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 2: like the amount of money that we've actually sent over

2310
02:09:57,360 --> 02:09:59,640
Speaker 2: there as a defense or as a percentage of just

2311
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:03,000
Speaker 2: like this stuff that we can't fully account for in

2312
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:07,120
Speaker 2: our militaries, like Arsenal, it's a tiny fraction of that,

2313
02:10:07,240 --> 02:10:10,800
Speaker 2: let alone a fraction of like our Defense Department's total assets.

2314
02:10:11,320 --> 02:10:13,240
Speaker 2: And it also this gets back to when people talk

2315
02:10:13,240 --> 02:10:16,720
Speaker 2: about like corruption in Ukraine, and by god, Ukraine has

2316
02:10:16,800 --> 02:10:19,200
Speaker 2: a history of government corruption, which is part of what

2317
02:10:19,240 --> 02:10:22,800
Speaker 2: the revolution in twenty fourteen was about, right, But it's

2318
02:10:22,840 --> 02:10:25,480
Speaker 2: particularly silly to complain about that as a reason not

2319
02:10:25,640 --> 02:10:29,240
Speaker 2: to send them weaponry when we know the US Defense

2320
02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:33,920
Speaker 2: Department is massively corrupt, a huge amount of corruption involving

2321
02:10:34,000 --> 02:10:37,640
Speaker 2: not just like not specifically even like military officials, but

2322
02:10:37,720 --> 02:10:41,800
Speaker 2: involving civilian contractors, involving like the agencies we contract to,

2323
02:10:41,920 --> 02:10:45,360
Speaker 2: involving the money that we've sent over the course of

2324
02:10:45,400 --> 02:10:47,600
Speaker 2: like the eight trillion dollars or so that we've spent

2325
02:10:48,040 --> 02:10:50,760
Speaker 2: on the war on Terror. A huge chunk of that,

2326
02:10:51,080 --> 02:10:53,000
Speaker 2: hundreds of billions of dollars of the money that we

2327
02:10:53,040 --> 02:10:55,960
Speaker 2: spent on the war on Terror is just gone. Billions

2328
02:10:55,960 --> 02:10:58,200
Speaker 2: of it disappeared in the form of cash pallets that

2329
02:10:58,280 --> 02:11:02,000
Speaker 2: we just lost, right, Like, this is the amount of

2330
02:11:02,040 --> 02:11:04,680
Speaker 2: money that it has cost us to support Ukraine in

2331
02:11:04,720 --> 02:11:07,600
Speaker 2: this war. Is a rounding error of the shit we

2332
02:11:07,720 --> 02:11:10,920
Speaker 2: lost just as a matter of business, Like it just

2333
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:12,080
Speaker 2: adds like it's like.

2334
02:11:12,040 --> 02:11:15,240
Speaker 13: A rounding earrow of like what we gave to Halliburton.

2335
02:11:15,080 --> 02:11:17,920
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, yes, to build hospitals that didn't work

2336
02:11:17,960 --> 02:11:18,920
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan.

2337
02:11:19,520 --> 02:11:20,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

2338
02:11:20,920 --> 02:11:23,080
Speaker 13: In speaking of Afghanistan, I think a lot of people

2339
02:11:23,120 --> 02:11:26,560
Speaker 13: look at you, they look at the Afghanistan withdrawal and

2340
02:11:26,640 --> 02:11:28,760
Speaker 13: they think, oh, this is what Ukraine's going to be like.

2341
02:11:29,200 --> 02:11:31,000
Speaker 13: But I think that brings up the point of story,

2342
02:11:31,080 --> 02:11:33,760
Speaker 13: what are we getting for that five percent of defense budget?

2343
02:11:34,040 --> 02:11:36,600
Speaker 13: You know, we gave a bunch to afghan and we

2344
02:11:36,680 --> 02:11:38,640
Speaker 13: ended up getting the same situation that we had when

2345
02:11:38,640 --> 02:11:39,840
Speaker 13: we went in there in two thousand and one, the

2346
02:11:39,920 --> 02:11:43,000
Speaker 13: Taliban and control. But now they have billions of dollars

2347
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:46,200
Speaker 13: worth of America the state of the art American military equipment.

2348
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:48,440
Speaker 2: And hundreds of thousands of Afghan people died in the

2349
02:11:48,440 --> 02:11:50,000
Speaker 2: interim exactly.

2350
02:11:50,640 --> 02:11:53,000
Speaker 13: And then you contrast that with like, well, what is

2351
02:11:53,000 --> 02:11:55,440
Speaker 13: our five percent of military budget? Get us in Ukraine

2352
02:11:55,920 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 13: and you look at what this is doing to Russia.

2353
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:03,080
Speaker 13: Russia gained abou zero point one percent of Ukrainian territory

2354
02:12:03,120 --> 02:12:05,320
Speaker 13: in the year twenty twenty three, second year of war,

2355
02:12:05,920 --> 02:12:09,120
Speaker 13: and to do that they lost about one hundred thousand soldiers.

2356
02:12:09,960 --> 02:12:12,760
Speaker 13: Now there's a lot of people in Russia, and that's

2357
02:12:12,760 --> 02:12:14,400
Speaker 13: always been the thing about Russia is that they have

2358
02:12:14,480 --> 02:12:17,400
Speaker 13: these this depth of recruiting that they can pull on,

2359
02:12:18,160 --> 02:12:23,080
Speaker 13: but they're taking out recruiting ads in like Saint Petersburg,

2360
02:12:23,560 --> 02:12:27,080
Speaker 13: in Moscow, and in like the wealthy that they're going

2361
02:12:27,120 --> 02:12:31,280
Speaker 13: hard on, like recruiting from wealthy urban centers instead of

2362
02:12:31,320 --> 02:12:33,920
Speaker 13: sort of the traditional rural areas where they bring in

2363
02:12:33,960 --> 02:12:36,760
Speaker 13: all their recruits, which which is evidence to me that

2364
02:12:37,400 --> 02:12:40,800
Speaker 13: they're suffering from a manpower shortage in the same way

2365
02:12:40,840 --> 02:12:43,200
Speaker 13: that the Ukrainians are. Yeah, and that's one of the

2366
02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:46,880
Speaker 13: things that particularly frustrates me when people say that we're

2367
02:12:46,880 --> 02:12:49,040
Speaker 13: not what are we getting for our money? Because that's

2368
02:12:49,200 --> 02:12:51,720
Speaker 13: that's it, Like Russia is on the ropes. People just

2369
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:54,480
Speaker 13: don't want to admit it. People see a slight incremental

2370
02:12:54,520 --> 02:12:56,880
Speaker 13: Russian gain or they feel like there's a standstill on

2371
02:12:56,920 --> 02:12:59,400
Speaker 13: the Ukrainian counter offensive and they think, oh, well, let's

2372
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:01,000
Speaker 13: just throw in the It's.

2373
02:13:00,880 --> 02:13:01,680
Speaker 3: Like, no, can't.

2374
02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:06,640
Speaker 13: You can't stop the pressure now, and Pudin is finally

2375
02:13:06,720 --> 02:13:08,960
Speaker 13: kind of ready to come to the negotiating table, it seems,

2376
02:13:09,560 --> 02:13:12,360
Speaker 13: and the Ukrainians, you know, need our help more than ever.

2377
02:13:13,160 --> 02:13:15,520
Speaker 13: And that's kind of the frustrating ourspact. I went on

2378
02:13:15,800 --> 02:13:17,480
Speaker 13: I went on the Hill TV the other day to

2379
02:13:17,520 --> 02:13:21,000
Speaker 13: talk with someone who said, basically, she said, is there

2380
02:13:21,040 --> 02:13:23,880
Speaker 13: any hope for Ukraine? Like very already fatalistic about the

2381
02:13:23,880 --> 02:13:26,080
Speaker 13: whole thing, like are they already on the ropes? And

2382
02:13:26,120 --> 02:13:29,000
Speaker 13: I was like, no, they're not on the ropes. And

2383
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:31,240
Speaker 13: this is a narrative that we need to change. We

2384
02:13:31,320 --> 02:13:33,200
Speaker 13: need to understand that there's a very there's a huge

2385
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:36,520
Speaker 13: difference between what military aid gets us in Ukraine versus

2386
02:13:36,560 --> 02:13:38,400
Speaker 13: what it gets us in Israel and Afghanistan.

2387
02:13:39,360 --> 02:13:42,440
Speaker 2: And there's it's also like a significant change in like

2388
02:13:42,480 --> 02:13:45,600
Speaker 2: who is being killed by those weapons, right because even

2389
02:13:45,640 --> 02:13:48,440
Speaker 2: when we talk about the use of like the US

2390
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:52,280
Speaker 2: use of weapons in foreign countries, we are often talking

2391
02:13:52,320 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 2: about these kind of these brush fire conflicts, these insurgencies

2392
02:13:56,480 --> 02:13:58,600
Speaker 2: in which a great deal of the fighting takes place

2393
02:13:58,680 --> 02:14:01,560
Speaker 2: in and around civilian populus. Is And obviously there are

2394
02:14:01,760 --> 02:14:04,320
Speaker 2: Ukrainian cities that have been under siege for quite a while.

2395
02:14:04,720 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 2: But when we're talking about like the Ukrainians firing or

2396
02:14:08,440 --> 02:14:11,160
Speaker 2: giving them him Our systems or giving them Bradley's, we

2397
02:14:11,200 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 2: are talking about weaponry that is being used to break

2398
02:14:14,120 --> 02:14:18,600
Speaker 2: fortifications on along a line of contact, which isn't as

2399
02:14:18,640 --> 02:14:21,960
Speaker 2: zero never is a zero civilian casualty endeavor, because those

2400
02:14:21,960 --> 02:14:26,600
Speaker 2: don't exist in war, but is a significantly less involves

2401
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:29,960
Speaker 2: significantly fewer civilian losses than the kind of wars that

2402
02:14:30,000 --> 02:14:31,760
Speaker 2: we have fought for most of the time that I've

2403
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:34,800
Speaker 2: been alive, right, because we're simply not using the weapons

2404
02:14:34,840 --> 02:14:37,240
Speaker 2: are not being used in the same way. Bombarding a

2405
02:14:37,280 --> 02:14:39,960
Speaker 2: trench line is not the same as firing a cruise

2406
02:14:39,960 --> 02:14:43,360
Speaker 2: missile at what you're pretty sure is a terrorist hideout

2407
02:14:43,360 --> 02:14:44,320
Speaker 2: in a city, you know.

2408
02:14:45,520 --> 02:14:47,800
Speaker 13: Right, And we have been reluctant to give them any

2409
02:14:47,800 --> 02:14:50,360
Speaker 13: weapons that could do that. I mean, some notable exceptions

2410
02:14:50,400 --> 02:14:52,880
Speaker 13: would be like the strike on the naval command center

2411
02:14:52,880 --> 02:14:56,240
Speaker 13: in Sevestopol. Yes, some other drone limited but but ansoly.

2412
02:14:56,360 --> 02:14:58,760
Speaker 13: Most of those are drone strikes from drone factories where

2413
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:01,160
Speaker 13: the Ukrainians create their own stuff, And there have been

2414
02:15:01,200 --> 02:15:04,880
Speaker 13: some limited civilian casualties in their incursions into Russian territory

2415
02:15:04,880 --> 02:15:06,840
Speaker 13: because we won't we won't give them any weapons that

2416
02:15:06,920 --> 02:15:08,560
Speaker 13: go into Russian territory.

2417
02:15:08,920 --> 02:15:15,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they give anything they want, yeah, well shit, anything

2418
02:15:15,000 --> 02:15:15,720
Speaker 2: else to.

2419
02:15:15,800 --> 02:15:17,720
Speaker 13: Get everything they want.

2420
02:15:19,000 --> 02:15:21,600
Speaker 2: I mean, we can't say that's not the case for

2421
02:15:22,360 --> 02:15:25,400
Speaker 2: whoever comes up next, because a number of our advertisements

2422
02:15:25,440 --> 02:15:42,160
Speaker 2: are random, but hopefully not and we're back, all right.

2423
02:15:42,720 --> 02:15:44,240
Speaker 2: One of the things you have to keep in mind

2424
02:15:44,560 --> 02:15:48,360
Speaker 2: when you think about like is what what is the

2425
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:51,000
Speaker 2: US capable of doing that is positive and what is

2426
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:53,040
Speaker 2: the US capable of doing that's negative? Is that the

2427
02:15:53,120 --> 02:15:56,480
Speaker 2: United States is fucking massive, right, Our budget is fucking massive.

2428
02:15:57,040 --> 02:16:00,200
Speaker 2: And we talk on this show, on my other show

2429
02:16:00,240 --> 02:16:02,400
Speaker 2: about a lot of horrible things our government has been

2430
02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:06,840
Speaker 2: involved in, which doesn't which does not detract from the

2431
02:16:06,880 --> 02:16:10,160
Speaker 2: fact that US aid, and particularly food aid, is like

2432
02:16:10,320 --> 02:16:13,240
Speaker 2: a survival matter for tens of millions of people around

2433
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,240
Speaker 2: the globe. Right Like this is one of those things

2434
02:16:15,280 --> 02:16:17,640
Speaker 2: when the Republicans are talking about wanting to like cut

2435
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:20,720
Speaker 2: all foreign aid that the US gives to basically everyone

2436
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:23,680
Speaker 2: but Israel. What that means when you talk about that,

2437
02:16:23,760 --> 02:16:28,000
Speaker 2: you are talking about like starving populations of people larger

2438
02:16:28,040 --> 02:16:31,600
Speaker 2: than most major American cities. Because the US is massive,

2439
02:16:31,720 --> 02:16:35,200
Speaker 2: and the aid that we give is you know, usually

2440
02:16:35,240 --> 02:16:38,199
Speaker 2: not it's not really that significant a chunk of our budget,

2441
02:16:38,520 --> 02:16:40,560
Speaker 2: but for the countries, for a lot of countries that

2442
02:16:40,640 --> 02:16:43,280
Speaker 2: receive it, it's like critical to survival food aid and

2443
02:16:43,320 --> 02:16:46,120
Speaker 2: medical aid that we've given over the years. And I

2444
02:16:46,160 --> 02:16:49,240
Speaker 2: think that also gets into like one of the things

2445
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:54,280
Speaker 2: that's important about understanding like how what impact you might

2446
02:16:54,400 --> 02:16:57,959
Speaker 2: have on what's going on in Ukraine. You don't have

2447
02:16:58,080 --> 02:17:01,320
Speaker 2: to if you if you have too much of a

2448
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:03,560
Speaker 2: bad taste in your mouth, or the idea of supporting

2449
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:06,720
Speaker 2: US military aid to anywhere. There's a lot of aid

2450
02:17:06,760 --> 02:17:10,680
Speaker 2: that's not military that's necessary right as you do, Charles.

2451
02:17:10,720 --> 02:17:14,680
Speaker 2: People need medicine right like you are having a positive

2452
02:17:15,040 --> 02:17:17,560
Speaker 2: outcome on like the people in Ukraine, if you are

2453
02:17:17,600 --> 02:17:20,879
Speaker 2: helping to increase their access to food and medicine, and

2454
02:17:20,920 --> 02:17:24,199
Speaker 2: that's not morally complicated. It's always there's always some moral

2455
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:27,480
Speaker 2: complexity in handing out weapons around the world. Handing out

2456
02:17:27,560 --> 02:17:31,119
Speaker 2: medication is incredibly simple from an ethical standpoint, at least

2457
02:17:31,160 --> 02:17:33,720
Speaker 2: from where you're never a bad guy for giving medicine.

2458
02:17:33,800 --> 02:17:35,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't even matter who it's too, like.

2459
02:17:37,400 --> 02:17:39,480
Speaker 13: Well, your bad gut Israel apparently.

2460
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:44,240
Speaker 2: Yes, yes they will drone strike you, but I don't know.

2461
02:17:44,280 --> 02:17:47,039
Speaker 2: I think that like one of the nice things as

2462
02:17:47,040 --> 02:17:51,640
Speaker 2: an American you don't have to. Realistically, the fight over

2463
02:17:51,760 --> 02:17:55,520
Speaker 2: Ukrainian aid right now is primarily something that is happening

2464
02:17:55,560 --> 02:17:58,680
Speaker 2: in Congress, and at this exact moment in that fight,

2465
02:17:59,040 --> 02:18:02,200
Speaker 2: there is very little URI can do. But there is

2466
02:18:02,240 --> 02:18:05,120
Speaker 2: a lot, as you prove, Charles, there is a lot

2467
02:18:05,160 --> 02:18:08,520
Speaker 2: that individual people can do to help other individual people.

2468
02:18:09,160 --> 02:18:12,520
Speaker 2: You may not have access to a Himer system or

2469
02:18:12,560 --> 02:18:15,160
Speaker 2: any more Bradley tanks to give the Ukrainians, although if

2470
02:18:15,200 --> 02:18:18,160
Speaker 2: you do, please please give them over they'll appreciate them.

2471
02:18:18,520 --> 02:18:20,240
Speaker 2: But there are a number of ways in which you

2472
02:18:20,280 --> 02:18:22,880
Speaker 2: can help, like the actual people suffering on the ground.

2473
02:18:22,879 --> 02:18:25,840
Speaker 2: And I think that that's like, that is right now

2474
02:18:25,879 --> 02:18:28,600
Speaker 2: what regular people can actually do.

2475
02:18:29,560 --> 02:18:32,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, I totally agree. I would push back a little

2476
02:18:32,640 --> 02:18:34,320
Speaker 13: bit and saying that there's not a lot that we

2477
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:36,840
Speaker 13: can do in terms of the congressional fund because I

2478
02:18:36,879 --> 02:18:41,120
Speaker 13: think that people do. I mean, I remember, from back

2479
02:18:41,160 --> 02:18:44,920
Speaker 13: in my time working adjacent to politics, I remember someone

2480
02:18:44,959 --> 02:18:46,880
Speaker 13: told me a statistic where it said it took five

2481
02:18:47,000 --> 02:18:49,480
Speaker 13: phone calls to an office of a congressman for them

2482
02:18:49,520 --> 02:18:52,880
Speaker 13: to rethink their stance on an issue.

2483
02:18:53,080 --> 02:18:53,600
Speaker 2: I'm interesting.

2484
02:18:53,640 --> 02:18:54,679
Speaker 6: I have received.

2485
02:18:54,400 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 13: Texts from AIDS to congressmen Republican and Democrat who sit

2486
02:19:00,120 --> 02:19:03,320
Speaker 13: on like House Armed Services Committee or you know, Defense

2487
02:19:03,360 --> 02:19:06,360
Speaker 13: and that sort of stuff, saying like, hey, what's with

2488
02:19:06,440 --> 02:19:09,640
Speaker 13: this Ukraine? Like what's your take on the Ukraine stuff?

2489
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:11,440
Speaker 13: Should we be giving them all this money? I don't

2490
02:19:11,440 --> 02:19:13,240
Speaker 13: really support it, but you went over there? Do you

2491
02:19:13,280 --> 02:19:14,080
Speaker 13: think they're using it?

2492
02:19:14,080 --> 02:19:14,320
Speaker 4: Well?

2493
02:19:15,080 --> 02:19:17,119
Speaker 13: And I'm like, holy, holy crap, am I actually getting

2494
02:19:17,120 --> 02:19:20,320
Speaker 13: this text? But yes, absolutely, Like yeah, you need you

2495
02:19:20,400 --> 02:19:22,360
Speaker 13: need to do that, you need to green light whatever,

2496
02:19:22,400 --> 02:19:24,080
Speaker 13: you need a green light to send that over there.

2497
02:19:24,120 --> 02:19:28,279
Speaker 13: And I think if more people, you know, we're especially

2498
02:19:28,320 --> 02:19:30,680
Speaker 13: now when a lot of congress people don't want to

2499
02:19:30,920 --> 02:19:33,440
Speaker 13: engage with the gaza issue but are looking for like

2500
02:19:33,480 --> 02:19:36,760
Speaker 13: good wins with their constituencies, like get to know your

2501
02:19:36,760 --> 02:19:40,760
Speaker 13: local Ukrainian constituency in your area, start a campaign to

2502
02:19:40,800 --> 02:19:44,000
Speaker 13: go to the regional office of your congressmen, find out

2503
02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:47,840
Speaker 13: which committees they sit on, and and pressure them for

2504
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:50,879
Speaker 13: sending aid to Ukraine. I mean, that is something you

2505
02:19:50,920 --> 02:19:54,720
Speaker 13: can do. But on the individual level, yeah, you you

2506
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:58,600
Speaker 13: can still raise awareness. You can you can connect the

2507
02:19:58,640 --> 02:20:02,240
Speaker 13: decolonial struggle of you Ukrainians to that of Palestinians and

2508
02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:07,440
Speaker 13: other peoples. Someone who does this extraordinarily well is Yulia Timoshenka.

2509
02:20:07,959 --> 02:20:12,039
Speaker 13: Not the Ukrainian politician. She's a young Ukrainian influencer and

2510
02:20:12,080 --> 02:20:15,600
Speaker 13: advocate who went to Nyu Abu Dhabi and sort of

2511
02:20:15,640 --> 02:20:18,640
Speaker 13: got kind of got pilled on the whole Palestine thing

2512
02:20:18,920 --> 02:20:24,280
Speaker 13: and has really eloquently tied the Palestinian and Ukrainian struggles together.

2513
02:20:25,680 --> 02:20:28,959
Speaker 13: So you can point people towards resources like that and

2514
02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:30,440
Speaker 13: let them know that there are at least some people

2515
02:20:30,520 --> 02:20:35,080
Speaker 13: in Ukraine who see that, who see that connection, and

2516
02:20:35,120 --> 02:20:38,480
Speaker 13: then you can also, of course, you can support humanitarian

2517
02:20:38,520 --> 02:20:42,160
Speaker 13: initiatives in Ukraine very carefully. Please just do so very carefully.

2518
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:45,959
Speaker 13: I would say there's a lot of there's a lot

2519
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:49,400
Speaker 13: of people who went over there and started initiatives that

2520
02:20:49,480 --> 02:20:51,720
Speaker 13: were more or less good, but mostly kind of ineffective

2521
02:20:51,800 --> 02:20:55,520
Speaker 13: because they did not actually engage and include Ukrainians in

2522
02:20:55,560 --> 02:21:00,200
Speaker 13: that process. My role with everything involving Ukraine is just

2523
02:20:59,879 --> 02:21:03,240
Speaker 13: like just to ask Ukrainians about it, Ask Ukrainians what

2524
02:21:03,280 --> 02:21:05,680
Speaker 13: they need, figure out what it is that their priorities are,

2525
02:21:05,720 --> 02:21:08,160
Speaker 13: and make sure that you're including them on your philanthropy

2526
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:13,039
Speaker 13: and your charity. They will understand what is most impactful. Yeah,

2527
02:21:13,080 --> 02:21:16,560
Speaker 13: my organization has experienced a lot of success by being

2528
02:21:17,879 --> 02:21:21,720
Speaker 13: entirely run by Ukrainians and being based in Arkiv. And

2529
02:21:22,200 --> 02:21:26,280
Speaker 13: as everyone else is funding and resources have dried up,

2530
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:30,560
Speaker 13: Mission Harkiv is being handed projects from larger NGOs who

2531
02:21:30,640 --> 02:21:34,640
Speaker 13: are leaving the region. Because we focus on a local response,

2532
02:21:35,440 --> 02:21:38,440
Speaker 13: it also means that you know, donations to organizations like

2533
02:21:38,480 --> 02:21:43,240
Speaker 13: that go farther because they're going to higher Ukrainians rather

2534
02:21:43,280 --> 02:21:47,240
Speaker 13: than paying for the flights of some westerner to go

2535
02:21:47,320 --> 02:21:50,879
Speaker 13: back and forth, you know, and do a fundraising, you know,

2536
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:52,959
Speaker 13: coming in from New York and do a fundraising pitch

2537
02:21:53,000 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 13: and go back. It's actually going towards This was a

2538
02:21:56,760 --> 02:22:00,120
Speaker 13: commitment I made to myself and my partner and I

2539
02:22:00,160 --> 02:22:03,360
Speaker 13: went over there. My partner at Mission Harkive was that

2540
02:22:03,640 --> 02:22:05,960
Speaker 13: I was never going to expense like a flight or

2541
02:22:06,000 --> 02:22:08,680
Speaker 13: a meal or anything to Mission Harkive. So you know,

2542
02:22:08,720 --> 02:22:10,560
Speaker 13: all that's come out of my own pocket. And that

2543
02:22:10,600 --> 02:22:12,560
Speaker 13: means that every donation that we have gets to go

2544
02:22:12,760 --> 02:22:16,120
Speaker 13: pretty much directly into our programs. So you can still

2545
02:22:16,160 --> 02:22:19,120
Speaker 13: do that as an individual, you can help in that way.

2546
02:22:19,240 --> 02:22:21,880
Speaker 13: And the awareness thing is a huge part people are

2547
02:22:21,879 --> 02:22:25,760
Speaker 13: forgetting Ukrainians feel abandoned, like making even just the act

2548
02:22:26,120 --> 02:22:29,280
Speaker 13: of putting a Ukrainian flag on your notes or like

2549
02:22:29,320 --> 02:22:32,199
Speaker 13: tweeting about Ukraine occasionally is seen as such a huge

2550
02:22:32,200 --> 02:22:34,440
Speaker 13: act of solidarity at this stage in the game that

2551
02:22:34,440 --> 02:22:35,959
Speaker 13: the Ukrainians will love you for it.

2552
02:22:37,320 --> 02:22:40,360
Speaker 2: I really love that you bring up the kind of

2553
02:22:40,879 --> 02:22:44,000
Speaker 2: pitfalls of and this is not this is Ukraine right now,

2554
02:22:44,000 --> 02:22:47,160
Speaker 2: in particular because it was such a huge international story

2555
02:22:47,640 --> 02:22:51,199
Speaker 2: at the start of the expanded invasion and that always

2556
02:22:51,560 --> 02:22:54,800
Speaker 2: brings out not just grifters but also well meaning people

2557
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:58,440
Speaker 2: who are going to raise money and try to start

2558
02:22:58,480 --> 02:23:00,880
Speaker 2: initiatives in that country, it may not be doing it

2559
02:23:00,920 --> 02:23:03,800
Speaker 2: in the most cost effective way possible. And I really

2560
02:23:03,879 --> 02:23:07,359
Speaker 2: like what you said about like the importance of verifying

2561
02:23:07,400 --> 02:23:11,160
Speaker 2: that where you are supporting is not just doing the work,

2562
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:13,320
Speaker 2: but is like doing the work in the best way possible.

2563
02:23:13,360 --> 02:23:15,600
Speaker 2: And one of the really important things to look at

2564
02:23:15,640 --> 02:23:17,480
Speaker 2: for is like, well, how much money are they spending

2565
02:23:17,520 --> 02:23:19,640
Speaker 2: on sending Westerners to and from this place?

2566
02:23:19,760 --> 02:23:19,960
Speaker 4: Right?

2567
02:23:20,120 --> 02:23:23,160
Speaker 2: It's one thing if like it's an area that lacks

2568
02:23:23,160 --> 02:23:26,279
Speaker 2: access to medical professionals and they're flying out medical professionals

2569
02:23:26,320 --> 02:23:28,560
Speaker 2: to do like trauma work or whatever, like there's really

2570
02:23:28,959 --> 02:23:32,080
Speaker 2: like that's obviously important, but this is something that like

2571
02:23:32,160 --> 02:23:35,520
Speaker 2: a lot of my friends in Iraq and Syria also experienced,

2572
02:23:35,600 --> 02:23:38,720
Speaker 2: like the frustration of like in GEO workers staying in

2573
02:23:38,800 --> 02:23:42,039
Speaker 2: nice hotels and driving you know, fancy vehicles, where there

2574
02:23:42,040 --> 02:23:45,959
Speaker 2: were local organizations doing things like maintaining refugee camps that

2575
02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:49,320
Speaker 2: needed the support. I think that's always really important to

2576
02:23:49,959 --> 02:23:53,480
Speaker 2: try to do your research so that the support you give,

2577
02:23:53,560 --> 02:23:55,960
Speaker 2: the awareness you raise, and the money that you donate

2578
02:23:56,040 --> 02:23:57,400
Speaker 2: actually goes where it needs to get.

2579
02:23:58,080 --> 02:24:00,600
Speaker 13: I think I mean that opens a whole broad category

2580
02:24:00,600 --> 02:24:03,160
Speaker 13: of maybe this is a subset essay waiting to happen.

2581
02:24:03,200 --> 02:24:05,080
Speaker 13: But I've been playing with this idea of like the

2582
02:24:05,120 --> 02:24:10,240
Speaker 13: idea of conflict vultures, these people who sort of descend

2583
02:24:10,920 --> 02:24:16,400
Speaker 13: on a conflict or a disaster zone for a variety

2584
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:19,200
Speaker 13: of reasons. You know, maybe it's fundraising. Maybe they work

2585
02:24:19,240 --> 02:24:20,800
Speaker 13: for a big NGO and this helps get them in

2586
02:24:20,800 --> 02:24:22,760
Speaker 13: the news, so they fly themselves out there. Maybe it's

2587
02:24:22,800 --> 02:24:25,360
Speaker 13: a war and they want to be a hero where

2588
02:24:25,400 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 13: they want to present themselves as a hero, and they

2589
02:24:27,200 --> 02:24:29,040
Speaker 13: end up raising a bunch of money for their equipment

2590
02:24:29,080 --> 02:24:31,760
Speaker 13: and stuff, and then stay far away from the fighting line,

2591
02:24:31,800 --> 02:24:34,520
Speaker 13: living in nice hotels like you said. Or maybe it

2592
02:24:34,600 --> 02:24:36,959
Speaker 13: is like you said, well, meeting people who just take

2593
02:24:37,040 --> 02:24:40,080
Speaker 13: up air from the people who need it and take

2594
02:24:40,600 --> 02:24:43,480
Speaker 13: They're like sponges that just absorb all this Western energy

2595
02:24:43,480 --> 02:24:47,640
Speaker 13: because they're they're a relatable face. And I've encountered all

2596
02:24:47,720 --> 02:24:50,800
Speaker 13: of those people in Ukraine. The reason I went to

2597
02:24:50,920 --> 02:24:53,160
Speaker 13: Ukraine is because I was like, if I'm going to

2598
02:24:53,240 --> 02:24:56,720
Speaker 13: fundraise for this initiative, people are going to give more.

2599
02:24:56,760 --> 02:24:59,360
Speaker 13: They're gonna be more invested if they see an English

2600
02:24:59,440 --> 02:25:03,480
Speaker 13: speaking American talking to them about this stuff. But I

2601
02:25:03,560 --> 02:25:06,520
Speaker 13: came in with the perspective that I can't be centering

2602
02:25:06,560 --> 02:25:10,200
Speaker 13: myself on this. The idea is to deflect onto what

2603
02:25:10,240 --> 02:25:13,320
Speaker 13: the Ukrainians are doing and elevate their stories rather than

2604
02:25:13,360 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 13: saying I'm here, I'm posing with the bach mout entrance sign.

2605
02:25:18,160 --> 02:25:23,280
Speaker 13: I just delivered seven muffins and a generator to like

2606
02:25:23,760 --> 02:25:26,560
Speaker 13: a place that was cleared out by the Ukrainians, you know,

2607
02:25:26,680 --> 02:25:31,080
Speaker 13: six months previously. It's more like, Okay, how how do

2608
02:25:31,120 --> 02:25:34,760
Speaker 13: you take Americans are very generous people. How do you

2609
02:25:34,800 --> 02:25:38,879
Speaker 13: take American philanthropy, American dollars, American wallets and directed towards

2610
02:25:38,879 --> 02:25:41,119
Speaker 13: the people who are actually going to change, who usually

2611
02:25:41,800 --> 02:25:46,400
Speaker 13: are not Americans. These large NGOs they serve a purpose.

2612
02:25:46,560 --> 02:25:51,279
Speaker 13: The UN serves a purpose. Doctors without borders, direct relief,

2613
02:25:51,600 --> 02:25:53,440
Speaker 13: you know, World Central Kitchen, they do it. They do

2614
02:25:53,480 --> 02:25:57,080
Speaker 13: a great job in like a specific thing. But a

2615
02:25:57,120 --> 02:25:59,920
Speaker 13: lot of times, if you're giving to the United Nations

2616
02:26:00,080 --> 02:26:02,160
Speaker 13: or you're giving to one of these big NGOs, that

2617
02:26:02,240 --> 02:26:05,360
Speaker 13: sets a fundraiser in the immediate aftermath of something, your

2618
02:26:05,400 --> 02:26:08,200
Speaker 13: money is going to remodel an office in Rome or

2619
02:26:08,280 --> 02:26:13,000
Speaker 13: New York, or Washington, DC, and you're not really reaching

2620
02:26:13,160 --> 02:26:15,280
Speaker 13: the people that you're trying to help. And I think

2621
02:26:15,360 --> 02:26:18,480
Speaker 13: if more Americans understood that, they'd be more responsible with

2622
02:26:18,520 --> 02:26:21,440
Speaker 13: sort of how they spend their money in a philanthropic sense.

2623
02:26:22,000 --> 02:26:25,400
Speaker 12: Yeah, Charles, you have been awesome. Thank you so much

2624
02:26:25,400 --> 02:26:29,520
Speaker 12: for coming on and telling us your experience. And yeah,

2625
02:26:29,760 --> 02:26:31,560
Speaker 12: where can people find you on the internet if you

2626
02:26:31,600 --> 02:26:32,600
Speaker 12: want to be found?

2627
02:26:34,640 --> 02:26:36,600
Speaker 13: Some I go back and forth. Sometimes I don't want

2628
02:26:36,600 --> 02:26:38,959
Speaker 13: to be found and sometimes I do. But you can

2629
02:26:38,959 --> 02:26:43,360
Speaker 13: find me pretty much everywhere with at Charles McBride. That's

2630
02:26:43,480 --> 02:26:46,600
Speaker 13: McBride with a why, except on Twitter at random. I

2631
02:26:46,600 --> 02:26:50,279
Speaker 13: don't have that handle. And then I just launched a substack,

2632
02:26:50,480 --> 02:26:54,280
Speaker 13: which is I guess Charles McBride dot substack dot com,

2633
02:26:54,760 --> 02:26:57,400
Speaker 13: and that's where we'll be. I'm kind of shifting towards

2634
02:26:57,480 --> 02:27:01,080
Speaker 13: more long form content to write about my experiences with

2635
02:27:01,120 --> 02:27:06,280
Speaker 13: these things and sort of a more digestible long form

2636
02:27:06,360 --> 02:27:11,200
Speaker 13: wave people engaging with important issues like this Awesoh and

2637
02:27:11,400 --> 02:27:14,000
Speaker 13: if you're interested in the organization I help set up

2638
02:27:14,000 --> 02:27:18,400
Speaker 13: in Ukraine, it is mission dot harkive on Instagram or

2639
02:27:18,520 --> 02:27:21,000
Speaker 13: missionharkive dot com and.

2640
02:27:21,080 --> 02:27:23,360
Speaker 12: I can put all the info in the description for yes,

2641
02:27:23,560 --> 02:27:26,119
Speaker 12: listeners and everything, but yeah.

2642
02:27:25,959 --> 02:27:30,320
Speaker 10: Sweet excellent Charles. Yeah, thank you, Charles, Thank you, guys.

2643
02:27:30,440 --> 02:27:31,240
Speaker 13: I appreciate it.

2644
02:27:45,160 --> 02:27:47,360
Speaker 8: Hey everybody, and welcome back to you. It could happen

2645
02:27:47,400 --> 02:27:50,080
Speaker 8: here show about the ways things are falling apart. Well,

2646
02:27:50,160 --> 02:27:52,959
Speaker 8: welcome back to you the listener. Welcome to me, your

2647
02:27:52,959 --> 02:27:55,520
Speaker 8: guest host. I'm Molly Conger, filling in for James for

2648
02:27:55,520 --> 02:27:58,119
Speaker 8: a few weeks. If you're happy to be hearing my voice,

2649
02:27:58,120 --> 02:28:00,600
Speaker 8: feel free to share that feedback anywhere you post online.

2650
02:28:00,680 --> 02:28:02,920
Speaker 8: If you're upset about the state of affairs, I suggest

2651
02:28:02,920 --> 02:28:06,320
Speaker 8: writing your congressional representative or mailing a cryptic postcard to

2652
02:28:06,320 --> 02:28:10,360
Speaker 8: your local ATF Field office. As your guest host, I'll

2653
02:28:10,360 --> 02:28:12,160
Speaker 8: try to bring you the it could Happen here content

2654
02:28:12,240 --> 02:28:14,440
Speaker 8: you know and love, dispatches from the front lines of

2655
02:28:14,440 --> 02:28:17,160
Speaker 8: our dystopia updates on the people trying to unravel society

2656
02:28:17,160 --> 02:28:19,080
Speaker 8: as we know it, and what's being done to stop

2657
02:28:19,120 --> 02:28:22,120
Speaker 8: the rising tide that threatens to swallow us all. Today

2658
02:28:22,120 --> 02:28:23,800
Speaker 8: I'm joined by a Garrison, and I'm going to tell

2659
02:28:23,840 --> 02:28:25,400
Speaker 8: them a little bit about what's been going on with

2660
02:28:25,520 --> 02:28:26,199
Speaker 8: Patriot Front.

2661
02:28:26,600 --> 02:28:31,160
Speaker 14: Hello, Patriot Front, fantastic one of the gayer groups of

2662
02:28:31,280 --> 02:28:33,760
Speaker 14: Nazis operating in the United States.

2663
02:28:34,640 --> 02:28:37,520
Speaker 8: It's just guys being dudes, Garrison, You wouldn't understand.

2664
02:28:37,760 --> 02:28:39,320
Speaker 3: I certainly wouldn't know.

2665
02:28:40,040 --> 02:28:42,879
Speaker 8: You may remember Patriot Front from such iconic moments as

2666
02:28:42,879 --> 02:28:44,960
Speaker 8: getting arrested and mass at a gay Pride event in

2667
02:28:45,040 --> 02:28:50,760
Speaker 8: Idaho in twenty twenty two, having their internal calms leaked repeatedly,

2668
02:28:50,400 --> 02:28:56,520
Speaker 8: nearly constantly, constantly, including some videos of questionably sensual path downs,

2669
02:28:58,120 --> 02:29:01,440
Speaker 8: or accidentally giving several members mild carbon monoxide poisoning by

2670
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:02,960
Speaker 8: forcing them to ride in the back of the U

2671
02:29:02,959 --> 02:29:06,040
Speaker 8: haul truck. You've probably seen their stickers on a trash

2672
02:29:06,120 --> 02:29:08,280
Speaker 8: can in your local downtown, or maybe you've driven by

2673
02:29:08,320 --> 02:29:11,119
Speaker 8: a racist banner drop. But when all is sudden done,

2674
02:29:11,280 --> 02:29:14,080
Speaker 8: hopefully you'll only remember them as having been sued into

2675
02:29:14,120 --> 02:29:16,240
Speaker 8: the center of the Earth, which is what I want

2676
02:29:16,240 --> 02:29:17,119
Speaker 8: to talk to you about today.

2677
02:29:18,320 --> 02:29:22,280
Speaker 3: Oh all right, that's I I'm unbelievably excited.

2678
02:29:23,080 --> 02:29:25,439
Speaker 8: We won't be getting into the sensual pat downs. Unfortunately,

2679
02:29:25,480 --> 02:29:27,199
Speaker 8: this is just court records.

2680
02:29:27,320 --> 02:29:30,080
Speaker 14: Okay, Well, I can always I can always find that

2681
02:29:30,080 --> 02:29:30,680
Speaker 14: on telegram.

2682
02:29:30,680 --> 02:29:31,400
Speaker 3: That's fine.

2683
02:29:32,240 --> 02:29:34,520
Speaker 8: But before we get into who is suing Patriot Front,

2684
02:29:34,560 --> 02:29:36,680
Speaker 8: let's get a quick refresher on who they are and

2685
02:29:36,720 --> 02:29:39,160
Speaker 8: how they came to be scurrying around and matching windbreakers

2686
02:29:39,160 --> 02:29:41,680
Speaker 8: promoting a white ethno state, because I think their origin

2687
02:29:41,720 --> 02:29:44,480
Speaker 8: story really informs the way they've backed themselves into this corner.

2688
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:47,879
Speaker 8: Patriot Front came into existence in late twenty seventeen when

2689
02:29:47,920 --> 02:29:51,000
Speaker 8: it's splintered off the now defunct neo Nazi group Vanguard America.

2690
02:29:51,560 --> 02:29:53,280
Speaker 8: The split was months in the making, with a power

2691
02:29:53,320 --> 02:29:56,400
Speaker 8: struggle brewing between Vanguard America leader Dylan Hopper and a young,

2692
02:29:56,480 --> 02:29:59,640
Speaker 8: up and coming fascist named Thomas Russo, who was at

2693
02:29:59,640 --> 02:30:02,440
Speaker 8: that time barely out of high school. In the months

2694
02:30:02,480 --> 02:30:04,280
Speaker 8: leading up to the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville

2695
02:30:04,320 --> 02:30:06,720
Speaker 8: in August twenty seventeen, Rousseau edged Hopper out of his

2696
02:30:06,720 --> 02:30:10,680
Speaker 8: own organization in what Hopper called a literal coup. By

2697
02:30:10,680 --> 02:30:13,480
Speaker 8: the time Vanguard America was marching in the streets of Charlottesville,

2698
02:30:13,560 --> 02:30:16,480
Speaker 8: Rousseau was not only in control of the group's internal communications,

2699
02:30:16,959 --> 02:30:19,680
Speaker 8: he was calling the shots on the ground. Hopper didn't

2700
02:30:19,680 --> 02:30:22,760
Speaker 8: even attend, and it was that event, the Unite the

2701
02:30:22,800 --> 02:30:25,960
Speaker 8: Right rally, that birthed Patriot Front. In those chaotic morning

2702
02:30:25,959 --> 02:30:28,480
Speaker 8: hours of August twelfth, twenty seventeen, a young man named

2703
02:30:28,560 --> 02:30:32,440
Speaker 8: James Alex Fields Junior joined the men under Russeau's command.

2704
02:30:33,360 --> 02:30:35,360
Speaker 8: He didn't ride with the core group from Texas in

2705
02:30:35,400 --> 02:30:37,680
Speaker 8: their rented van, which they called the hate Bus.

2706
02:30:37,959 --> 02:30:41,200
Speaker 3: Oh my wait, did they really call it the hate bus?

2707
02:30:41,920 --> 02:30:45,520
Speaker 8: Rousseau was back then he was sort of Asthmador's protege.

2708
02:30:45,560 --> 02:30:48,199
Speaker 8: I don't know that they'll claim that now, but back

2709
02:30:48,240 --> 02:30:53,400
Speaker 8: then at like this adult alcoholic nazi was mentoring this

2710
02:30:53,520 --> 02:30:57,240
Speaker 8: fascist team like he was. He had just GRADUATEDIZ.

2711
02:30:56,959 --> 02:30:58,160
Speaker 3: Many such cases.

2712
02:30:58,680 --> 02:31:00,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, so they came up in the hate bus space

2713
02:31:00,480 --> 02:31:04,720
Speaker 8: all right. Mcfields drove here alone. He drove overnight from Ohio,

2714
02:31:05,080 --> 02:31:07,560
Speaker 8: but he was wearing the group's uniform, a white polo

2715
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:11,480
Speaker 8: khaki pants and carrying a shield bearing Vanguard's logo. He

2716
02:31:11,600 --> 02:31:13,600
Speaker 8: joined in with the members of Vanguard America as they

2717
02:31:13,640 --> 02:31:17,480
Speaker 8: loitered around a public park, chanting Nazi slogans. Field stood

2718
02:31:17,480 --> 02:31:19,760
Speaker 8: shoulder to shoulder and a line of Vanguard members guarding

2719
02:31:19,760 --> 02:31:21,280
Speaker 8: the entrance to the park where the rally was to

2720
02:31:21,320 --> 02:31:25,600
Speaker 8: be held, preventing counter protesters from entering. A Few hours later,

2721
02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:27,680
Speaker 8: after the rally had been called off by the State police,

2722
02:31:27,680 --> 02:31:31,240
Speaker 8: declaring an unlawful assembly, Fields drove his Dodge Challenger into

2723
02:31:31,320 --> 02:31:34,440
Speaker 8: a crowd of counter protesters, killing heather Higher and injuring

2724
02:31:34,480 --> 02:31:38,400
Speaker 8: dozens of others. In later litigation, Dylan Hopper, responding for

2725
02:31:38,480 --> 02:31:42,320
Speaker 8: Vanguard America, was asked about his immediate reaction to hearing

2726
02:31:42,360 --> 02:31:46,320
Speaker 8: about the attack that afternoon. In the group's discord, Hopper posted,

2727
02:31:46,760 --> 02:31:50,520
Speaker 8: Commi's died. That's good enough for me. This was, of course,

2728
02:31:50,600 --> 02:31:53,000
Speaker 8: before he'd seen the photos of the murderer mingling with

2729
02:31:53,040 --> 02:31:55,840
Speaker 8: his hate group. In a deposition three years later, he

2730
02:31:55,840 --> 02:31:58,800
Speaker 8: didn't disavow that initial reaction. He said heather Hire's death

2731
02:31:58,840 --> 02:32:00,720
Speaker 8: was a tragedy the same way it would be tragic

2732
02:32:00,720 --> 02:32:03,760
Speaker 8: if a surfer who knowingly entered shark infested waters was

2733
02:32:03,840 --> 02:32:07,480
Speaker 8: killed by a shark, saying it was that woman's choice

2734
02:32:07,520 --> 02:32:10,200
Speaker 8: to be there. But he maintained that Fields was never

2735
02:32:10,240 --> 02:32:11,959
Speaker 8: a member of the group, that anyone could have put

2736
02:32:12,000 --> 02:32:13,760
Speaker 8: on a white polo and stood near them in the park,

2737
02:32:13,959 --> 02:32:17,680
Speaker 8: that anyone could have handed Fields that shield. His testimony

2738
02:32:17,760 --> 02:32:21,360
Speaker 8: was that Vanguard America didn't actually have membership list, there

2739
02:32:21,360 --> 02:32:24,280
Speaker 8: was no official record who was a member, but he

2740
02:32:24,320 --> 02:32:28,280
Speaker 8: somehow also knew that Fields was not a member. In

2741
02:32:28,320 --> 02:32:30,560
Speaker 8: that twenty twenty deposition, he claimed that he spoke to

2742
02:32:30,640 --> 02:32:33,199
Speaker 8: Rousseau in the days after the rally, and Rousseau admitted

2743
02:32:33,360 --> 02:32:35,000
Speaker 8: that he had been the one to make the choice

2744
02:32:35,040 --> 02:32:37,640
Speaker 8: to allow Fields to march with them in an attempt

2745
02:32:37,680 --> 02:32:39,760
Speaker 8: to make the group appear larger than it really was,

2746
02:32:40,480 --> 02:32:42,320
Speaker 8: and Fields himself never claimed to be a member of

2747
02:32:42,360 --> 02:32:45,160
Speaker 8: the organization. In his federal sentencing memo, his defense attorney

2748
02:32:45,240 --> 02:32:47,960
Speaker 8: wrote that he'd never been a member of any organized group.

2749
02:32:48,560 --> 02:32:50,760
Speaker 8: But the damage to Vanguard America was done, and almost

2750
02:32:50,840 --> 02:32:53,520
Speaker 8: every photo of Fields taken that morning, just hours before

2751
02:32:53,560 --> 02:32:55,360
Speaker 8: he committed a hate crime murder that would send him

2752
02:32:55,360 --> 02:32:57,800
Speaker 8: to prison for the rest of his life, he certainly

2753
02:32:57,800 --> 02:33:01,120
Speaker 8: looks like he's with them. After the rally, as Rousseau

2754
02:33:01,200 --> 02:33:03,080
Speaker 8: was still trying to make his way home to Texas,

2755
02:33:03,120 --> 02:33:06,000
Speaker 8: he posted in the Vanguard Discord about the issue with

2756
02:33:06,080 --> 02:33:08,440
Speaker 8: the man who ran into protesters with his car. He

2757
02:33:08,560 --> 02:33:11,400
Speaker 8: was certainly not a member, and none of us know him.

2758
02:33:11,760 --> 02:33:13,720
Speaker 8: Our shields were given widely to anyone at the rally,

2759
02:33:13,720 --> 02:33:16,240
Speaker 8: and we had many extras. There's no criminal conspiracy, but

2760
02:33:16,280 --> 02:33:19,760
Speaker 8: handing a person a piece of wood and agreeing on fashion. Legally,

2761
02:33:20,879 --> 02:33:23,160
Speaker 8: we have been in contact with folks with legal experience

2762
02:33:23,280 --> 02:33:26,400
Speaker 8: and we're fine as far as PR. Yes, it's bad,

2763
02:33:26,640 --> 02:33:29,200
Speaker 8: But last week they called us evil, white supremacist Nazi killers,

2764
02:33:29,200 --> 02:33:30,640
Speaker 8: and today they're calling us the same thing.

2765
02:33:31,320 --> 02:33:32,039
Speaker 3: Shrug it off.

2766
02:33:33,800 --> 02:33:36,480
Speaker 8: When members complained that they shouldn't be disavowing the actions

2767
02:33:36,520 --> 02:33:41,320
Speaker 8: of the murderer, Rousseau clarified that quote. The statement never

2768
02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:44,240
Speaker 8: said that what he did was wrong, just clarified that

2769
02:33:44,280 --> 02:33:48,520
Speaker 8: he wasn't a member. People aren't buying it anyway, So

2770
02:33:48,600 --> 02:33:51,280
Speaker 8: neither Rousseau nor Hopper were willing to say what Fields

2771
02:33:51,280 --> 02:33:54,320
Speaker 8: did should not have happened. They didn't disavow the murder.

2772
02:33:54,920 --> 02:33:58,520
Speaker 8: Hopper's comments seemed genuinely supportive of the murder. They were

2773
02:33:58,560 --> 02:34:00,680
Speaker 8: willing to cheer on the bloodshed, but the way the

2774
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:02,680
Speaker 8: blood looked on their own hands was going to be

2775
02:34:02,720 --> 02:34:06,879
Speaker 8: a pr problem. Now, for me, the whole Nazi thing

2776
02:34:07,000 --> 02:34:09,520
Speaker 8: is kind of a deal breaker from the start, branding wise, Like,

2777
02:34:09,600 --> 02:34:12,000
Speaker 8: just from the jump, there's a branding issue. There's an eagle,

2778
02:34:12,040 --> 02:34:14,680
Speaker 8: there's a fascies, there's the blood and soil thing. It's

2779
02:34:14,680 --> 02:34:15,880
Speaker 8: just it's not a good look.

2780
02:34:16,840 --> 02:34:20,879
Speaker 3: Could you briefly explain what a fascianes is. So it

2781
02:34:21,000 --> 02:34:22,760
Speaker 3: is a bundle of sticks, right.

2782
02:34:22,640 --> 02:34:26,039
Speaker 14: It's it's an old Roman symbol, right.

2783
02:34:26,000 --> 02:34:28,000
Speaker 8: Right, it comes from you know, the Roman Empire. So

2784
02:34:28,000 --> 02:34:31,680
Speaker 8: it's this very you know, return to tradition. Mussolini brought

2785
02:34:31,680 --> 02:34:32,119
Speaker 8: it back.

2786
02:34:32,480 --> 02:34:36,080
Speaker 14: Yeah, and like you can break one stick pretty easily,

2787
02:34:36,680 --> 02:34:39,879
Speaker 14: but if they're all bundled together, then it's then then

2788
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:41,599
Speaker 14: it's then it's harder to break.

2789
02:34:41,480 --> 02:34:44,840
Speaker 8: Apes together strong. Yeah, sorry, just so that the prevy

2790
02:34:44,879 --> 02:34:49,400
Speaker 8: for the new planet of the Apes. But that's not

2791
02:34:49,600 --> 02:34:52,000
Speaker 8: the issue for them in this twenty seventeen rebrand, Right,

2792
02:34:52,080 --> 02:34:55,320
Speaker 8: it's the Nazi thing, not the deal breaker. But it's

2793
02:34:55,360 --> 02:34:57,600
Speaker 8: hard to shake the association with a hate crime. Murder

2794
02:34:58,680 --> 02:35:01,520
Speaker 8: was a member, But the pictures of the murderer holding

2795
02:35:01,520 --> 02:35:04,039
Speaker 8: your logo and standing right next to you are going

2796
02:35:04,120 --> 02:35:07,360
Speaker 8: to follow you. So just three weeks after the rally,

2797
02:35:07,560 --> 02:35:10,000
Speaker 8: Thomas Rousseau announced in the Vanguard America Discord that he

2798
02:35:10,040 --> 02:35:13,640
Speaker 8: was launching a full rebrand, calling the new group Patriots Front.

2799
02:35:14,160 --> 02:35:16,920
Speaker 8: That s gets dropped later, but Patriots.

2800
02:35:16,360 --> 02:35:21,600
Speaker 14: Front, Yeah, that is a way worse name. Yeah, Patriots Front.

2801
02:35:21,640 --> 02:35:23,480
Speaker 14: To say that is that it's really hard to say.

2802
02:35:23,560 --> 02:35:26,240
Speaker 14: They've not possessive either. There's no apostrophe. It's just like

2803
02:35:26,480 --> 02:35:29,800
Speaker 14: Patriots Front. Oh yeah, that's weird. They made a good call,

2804
02:35:29,879 --> 02:35:30,360
Speaker 14: dropped in that.

2805
02:35:30,440 --> 02:35:33,000
Speaker 8: S so they really fine tuned it there in the end.

2806
02:35:33,120 --> 02:35:35,360
Speaker 14: That was the only the only good thing they've done

2807
02:35:35,520 --> 02:35:37,359
Speaker 14: besides just keep getting arrested.

2808
02:35:37,440 --> 02:35:40,760
Speaker 8: But yeah, so the message wasn't changing, The ideology is

2809
02:35:40,760 --> 02:35:43,680
Speaker 8: not changing. The manifesto got a little fresh polish, but

2810
02:35:43,720 --> 02:35:47,160
Speaker 8: the real change was optics. Rousseau recognized the need for

2811
02:35:47,240 --> 02:35:50,440
Speaker 8: broader appeal, for new recruits and for plausible deniability on

2812
02:35:50,480 --> 02:35:52,840
Speaker 8: the group's surface. You can get away with saying a

2813
02:35:52,879 --> 02:35:55,240
Speaker 8: lot more Nazi shit if you put an American flag

2814
02:35:55,280 --> 02:35:57,680
Speaker 8: on the hats and a founding father on the homepage

2815
02:35:57,720 --> 02:35:59,400
Speaker 8: than you can if you're sporting a son and rat

2816
02:35:59,440 --> 02:36:00,680
Speaker 8: and posting Hitler memes.

2817
02:36:01,000 --> 02:36:04,879
Speaker 14: Yeah, all of their their kind of outwards visual style

2818
02:36:05,520 --> 02:36:07,120
Speaker 14: is all very like American.

2819
02:36:07,200 --> 02:36:09,240
Speaker 3: It is it is, it is. It is American.

2820
02:36:09,480 --> 02:36:12,280
Speaker 14: There's a bit of like a military kind of kind

2821
02:36:12,320 --> 02:36:16,959
Speaker 14: of a cleanness to it, but it's very much like

2822
02:36:17,560 --> 02:36:19,240
Speaker 14: they're going full Americana.

2823
02:36:19,520 --> 02:36:22,600
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, it's it's it's Americana. It's like Patriot Kitch, right,

2824
02:36:22,600 --> 02:36:24,320
Speaker 8: Like it's a few ten signs away from being a

2825
02:36:24,320 --> 02:36:24,959
Speaker 8: fud rockers.

2826
02:36:25,240 --> 02:36:27,600
Speaker 14: Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's it's it's very much not

2827
02:36:27,720 --> 02:36:32,760
Speaker 14: like German Nazi. It's like, right, it's like USA with

2828
02:36:32,800 --> 02:36:36,039
Speaker 14: some like US army signifiers that kind of stuff.

2829
02:36:36,920 --> 02:36:39,600
Speaker 8: But the you know, the sentiment behind it is the same.

2830
02:36:39,680 --> 02:36:41,840
Speaker 8: You can take away the black eagle and the fascie

2831
02:36:41,879 --> 02:36:43,080
Speaker 8: like actually they kept the fascies.

2832
02:36:43,120 --> 02:36:46,840
Speaker 3: It's just red, white and blue. Now us say all

2833
02:36:46,879 --> 02:36:50,959
Speaker 3: the way, baby, I mean to be fair, money to

2834
02:36:51,000 --> 02:36:51,320
Speaker 3: be fair.

2835
02:36:51,400 --> 02:36:55,840
Speaker 14: The United States of America also uses a fascie.

2836
02:36:55,320 --> 02:36:58,199
Speaker 8: Right, I'm not like, you know, crying for the sullying

2837
02:36:58,280 --> 02:37:01,280
Speaker 8: of the of the branding of the Night in America.

2838
02:37:01,320 --> 02:37:03,920
Speaker 8: But it's clear what the intention was here. Yes, it's

2839
02:37:03,959 --> 02:37:07,000
Speaker 8: to sort of hide behind that Americana. But in the

2840
02:37:07,000 --> 02:37:09,240
Speaker 8: six and a half years since that rebrand, Thomas Rousseau

2841
02:37:09,280 --> 02:37:13,160
Speaker 8: has maintained tight personal control over the entire group, now

2842
02:37:13,160 --> 02:37:16,440
Speaker 8: called Patriot Front. You can almost read that as a

2843
02:37:16,440 --> 02:37:19,640
Speaker 8: reaction to his first major setback as a white supremacist organizer.

2844
02:37:19,680 --> 02:37:21,840
Speaker 8: You know, he'd led some smaller rallies in Texas before

2845
02:37:21,920 --> 02:37:24,240
Speaker 8: Unite the Right, but that was his first big day

2846
02:37:24,240 --> 02:37:28,600
Speaker 8: out commanding the Nazi group. Right, And as a result

2847
02:37:28,640 --> 02:37:31,000
Speaker 8: of that day, the entire group was tarnished by the

2848
02:37:31,040 --> 02:37:34,400
Speaker 8: association of you know, in their telling, some random guy

2849
02:37:34,520 --> 02:37:36,240
Speaker 8: who was just near them, We.

2850
02:37:36,280 --> 02:37:38,520
Speaker 14: Just happened to hang out with people who like doing murders,

2851
02:37:38,560 --> 02:37:38,840
Speaker 14: you know.

2852
02:37:39,800 --> 02:37:41,720
Speaker 8: Right, you know, like it goes like what Hopper was

2853
02:37:41,760 --> 02:37:43,480
Speaker 8: saying in his deposition, right, like, well, she was in

2854
02:37:43,520 --> 02:37:46,840
Speaker 8: shark infested waters. Like, by your own admission, you are

2855
02:37:46,879 --> 02:37:49,600
Speaker 8: the sharks. Yeah, you're saying you are a flesh eating shark.

2856
02:37:51,120 --> 02:37:53,720
Speaker 8: But that's not possible anymore now, right, So you can't

2857
02:37:53,760 --> 02:37:56,600
Speaker 8: just be some guy who's marching with Patriot Front because

2858
02:37:56,600 --> 02:37:59,080
Speaker 8: their events are never announced ahead of time. You have

2859
02:37:59,160 --> 02:38:01,600
Speaker 8: to get the official group merch from the group, after

2860
02:38:01,600 --> 02:38:03,960
Speaker 8: being interviewed and vetted. You can't just show up and

2861
02:38:04,000 --> 02:38:07,040
Speaker 8: march with them unless you're a member, because only members

2862
02:38:07,080 --> 02:38:08,920
Speaker 8: know when the events are going to be. Yeah, there's

2863
02:38:08,959 --> 02:38:11,680
Speaker 8: no chance that some unvetted hangar on is going to

2864
02:38:11,680 --> 02:38:15,320
Speaker 8: be standing near them. And that does solve the problem

2865
02:38:15,400 --> 02:38:17,520
Speaker 8: posed by someone like James Fields, but it creates a

2866
02:38:17,560 --> 02:38:24,039
Speaker 8: new problem, real legal liability, by establishing so clearly and

2867
02:38:24,120 --> 02:38:27,959
Speaker 8: so firmly that anybody who's marching with you wearing your

2868
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:30,959
Speaker 8: hat and your jacket, following your orders through the megaphone.

2869
02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:33,840
Speaker 8: You have established that all of those people answer to you,

2870
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:36,000
Speaker 8: and you know them, and you approve that they were there.

2871
02:38:37,080 --> 02:38:38,080
Speaker 8: Now you're responsible.

2872
02:38:38,200 --> 02:38:40,600
Speaker 14: Yeah, you make the classical mistake of having an actual

2873
02:38:40,680 --> 02:38:42,840
Speaker 14: official members list.

2874
02:38:43,240 --> 02:38:46,520
Speaker 8: Right, so now you no longer have the option of saying, well,

2875
02:38:46,520 --> 02:38:49,280
Speaker 8: that guy wasn't with us, We don't know him. And

2876
02:38:49,320 --> 02:38:52,000
Speaker 8: that's where the lawsuits enter the picture. So right now

2877
02:38:52,040 --> 02:38:54,879
Speaker 8: there are three active federal lawsuits against Patriot Front, one

2878
02:38:54,879 --> 02:38:57,600
Speaker 8: in Virginia, one in Massachusetts, and one in North Dakota.

2879
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:00,560
Speaker 8: And the underlying actions and some of the claims vary,

2880
02:39:00,640 --> 02:39:03,720
Speaker 8: but all three lawsuits are making the same central claim,

2881
02:39:04,000 --> 02:39:07,720
Speaker 8: a Section nineteen eighty five complaint alleging a conspiracy by

2882
02:39:07,720 --> 02:39:10,120
Speaker 8: Patriot Front and its members to deprive the plaintiffs of

2883
02:39:10,160 --> 02:39:13,400
Speaker 8: their civil rights. And I think it's really interesting. This

2884
02:39:13,440 --> 02:39:15,280
Speaker 8: is dry as hell. Maybe that's only interesting to me

2885
02:39:15,440 --> 02:39:17,680
Speaker 8: that I think it's really interesting to look at the

2886
02:39:17,680 --> 02:39:21,640
Speaker 8: original context of that statute, right that code section It

2887
02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:24,360
Speaker 8: comes out of the Enforcement Act of eighteen seventy one.

2888
02:39:25,000 --> 02:39:28,160
Speaker 8: Are you familiar with the Enforcement Acts? Going going into

2889
02:39:28,200 --> 02:39:31,000
Speaker 8: deep civil war lore, you know, going back to reconstruction,

2890
02:39:31,680 --> 02:39:32,480
Speaker 8: I'm Canadian.

2891
02:39:33,000 --> 02:39:33,640
Speaker 3: I don't.

2892
02:39:35,240 --> 02:39:37,840
Speaker 14: The American legal system is but something I've been learning

2893
02:39:38,120 --> 02:39:41,560
Speaker 14: the past ten years. It is by no means the

2894
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:43,920
Speaker 14: specialty of my research or knowledge.

2895
02:39:44,160 --> 02:39:46,119
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm not like a big Civil War guy.

2896
02:39:46,160 --> 02:39:46,280
Speaker 4: You know.

2897
02:39:46,320 --> 02:39:49,440
Speaker 8: I have, accidentally and against my will, learned a lot

2898
02:39:49,480 --> 02:39:51,520
Speaker 8: about the Civil War because we've been arguing about these

2899
02:39:51,520 --> 02:39:54,720
Speaker 8: statues for a few years. Sure, but reconstruction I think

2900
02:39:54,800 --> 02:39:55,840
Speaker 8: is really overlooked.

2901
02:39:55,840 --> 02:39:55,920
Speaker 4: You.

2902
02:39:55,959 --> 02:39:57,760
Speaker 8: In my own education in public school, there was like

2903
02:39:57,800 --> 02:39:59,840
Speaker 8: two paragraphs about reconstruction and then we just sort of

2904
02:39:59,840 --> 02:40:00,520
Speaker 8: like moved on.

2905
02:40:01,040 --> 02:40:03,840
Speaker 14: I had like a semester on it. It is certainly

2906
02:40:03,879 --> 02:40:07,160
Speaker 14: one of the more tragic periods of American history, how

2907
02:40:07,200 --> 02:40:09,920
Speaker 14: we seem to almost have figured something out and then

2908
02:40:09,959 --> 02:40:11,439
Speaker 14: it all went down the drain pretty.

2909
02:40:11,200 --> 02:40:14,440
Speaker 8: Quick, like we really whiffed it. But the Enforcement Act

2910
02:40:14,440 --> 02:40:16,920
Speaker 8: of eighteen seventy one is also called the ku Klux

2911
02:40:17,000 --> 02:40:17,760
Speaker 8: Klan Act.

2912
02:40:18,640 --> 02:40:21,760
Speaker 14: Oh oh oh, yeah, these guys, we're a getting somewhere.

2913
02:40:22,360 --> 02:40:25,080
Speaker 8: So when President Grant signed the KKK Act into law

2914
02:40:25,080 --> 02:40:28,600
Speaker 8: in eighteen seventy one, support for reconstruction was starting to falter,

2915
02:40:29,160 --> 02:40:31,440
Speaker 8: and there was genuine fear that the eighteen seventy two

2916
02:40:31,480 --> 02:40:33,840
Speaker 8: presidential election would bring on a new wave of clan

2917
02:40:33,959 --> 02:40:36,840
Speaker 8: violence in the South. And that's starting to sound a

2918
02:40:36,879 --> 02:40:39,160
Speaker 8: little familiar, isn't it. You know, people are getting tired,

2919
02:40:39,400 --> 02:40:41,520
Speaker 8: People are getting tired of being asked to address deep

2920
02:40:41,560 --> 02:40:45,039
Speaker 8: rooted systemic inequalities. There's an upcoming and uncertain presidential election.

2921
02:40:45,600 --> 02:40:48,440
Speaker 8: There's growing fear of vigilanti violence by roving bands of

2922
02:40:48,480 --> 02:40:50,879
Speaker 8: masked racists. You know, like everything old is new again.

2923
02:40:51,080 --> 02:40:55,360
Speaker 3: That sounds like kind of like right now, Yeah, that's wild.

2924
02:40:56,280 --> 02:40:57,959
Speaker 8: So you know, there have been other enforcement acts. This

2925
02:40:58,040 --> 02:41:00,440
Speaker 8: wasn't the first one, but the ku Klux Plan Act

2926
02:41:00,480 --> 02:41:05,840
Speaker 8: was specifically tailored to address the question of freelance violence. Right, So, normally,

2927
02:41:05,879 --> 02:41:08,400
Speaker 8: if you are suing over a civil rights violation, there

2928
02:41:08,400 --> 02:41:10,400
Speaker 8: are only remedies available to you when your rights have

2929
02:41:10,440 --> 02:41:13,360
Speaker 8: been violated by a state actor, a cop, a government body,

2930
02:41:13,440 --> 02:41:17,360
Speaker 8: the law itself. The irsu can can really only seek

2931
02:41:17,440 --> 02:41:19,840
Speaker 8: legal remedy when your rights are violated by the state.

2932
02:41:20,800 --> 02:41:24,480
Speaker 8: This one's a little different because during reconstruction, a lot

2933
02:41:24,520 --> 02:41:27,160
Speaker 8: of that violence, the intimidation, the actions being taken to

2934
02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:30,640
Speaker 8: deprive Black Americans of their newly granted rights, was being

2935
02:41:30,720 --> 02:41:34,360
Speaker 8: undertaken by private actors organizing together. Again, it's starting to

2936
02:41:34,360 --> 02:41:35,119
Speaker 8: feel familiar.

2937
02:41:35,560 --> 02:41:38,840
Speaker 14: Yeah, it's not like there could be groups of armed

2938
02:41:38,879 --> 02:41:43,520
Speaker 14: extremists monitoring voting sites trying to scare people away from

2939
02:41:44,760 --> 02:41:47,920
Speaker 14: from voting in an election. That could never happen.

2940
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:49,760
Speaker 3: Now we've learned no lessons.

2941
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:53,039
Speaker 8: Right, So, groups of white men organizing themselves, wearing matching outfits,

2942
02:41:53,080 --> 02:41:55,760
Speaker 8: conspiring to undertake actions to intimidate, harass, and harm the

2943
02:41:55,800 --> 02:41:58,280
Speaker 8: people they believe that are standing between them and the

2944
02:41:58,320 --> 02:42:01,800
Speaker 8: white America they were born to, right. Yeah, So the

2945
02:42:01,800 --> 02:42:05,640
Speaker 8: statute originally provided for both civil and criminal liability for

2946
02:42:05,680 --> 02:42:09,320
Speaker 8: these conspiracies. Interesting, and that first year Grant went hard

2947
02:42:09,360 --> 02:42:12,680
Speaker 8: in the paint with it. Oh like, he he went

2948
02:42:13,560 --> 02:42:15,520
Speaker 8: full hog like. As soon as he signed this into law,

2949
02:42:15,959 --> 02:42:18,600
Speaker 8: he was red d So in that first year or

2950
02:42:18,600 --> 02:42:22,240
Speaker 8: two after he signed the act, he broke the back

2951
02:42:22,360 --> 02:42:25,360
Speaker 8: of the Klan. Hundreds of klansmen were prosecuted in South

2952
02:42:25,360 --> 02:42:28,320
Speaker 8: Carolina alone. They were arresting so many klansmen so quickly

2953
02:42:28,360 --> 02:42:30,440
Speaker 8: that hundreds of them just went to their local courthouse

2954
02:42:30,480 --> 02:42:32,440
Speaker 8: and turned themselves in because they knew it was coming.

2955
02:42:32,520 --> 02:42:34,879
Speaker 3: Oh my god, it killed the Klan. Wow.

2956
02:42:35,760 --> 02:42:38,760
Speaker 8: But even before the Supreme Court decided twelve years later

2957
02:42:38,800 --> 02:42:41,280
Speaker 8: that I mean, when it comes to the crime part

2958
02:42:41,320 --> 02:42:43,600
Speaker 8: of this, maybe we should let the States handle it, right,

2959
02:42:44,879 --> 02:42:47,680
Speaker 8: so it no longer has a criminal liability component.

2960
02:42:48,400 --> 02:42:50,720
Speaker 3: So this just the civil liability left under that law.

2961
02:42:51,360 --> 02:42:53,120
Speaker 8: But even before the Supreme Court made that ruling in

2962
02:42:53,120 --> 02:42:56,480
Speaker 8: eighteen eighty three, the Klan Act prosecutions pretty much ended

2963
02:42:56,520 --> 02:42:59,200
Speaker 8: when reconstruction died, right, it was this brief moment in

2964
02:42:59,280 --> 02:43:03,400
Speaker 8: time when there was any appetite to do anything about this, Yeah,

2965
02:43:03,440 --> 02:43:03,800
Speaker 8: and it.

2966
02:43:03,680 --> 02:43:04,760
Speaker 3: Faded out pretty quickly.

2967
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:06,840
Speaker 8: So today it's up to the victim to seek their

2968
02:43:06,879 --> 02:43:09,240
Speaker 8: own civil remedy when they're terrorized by the sons of

2969
02:43:09,280 --> 02:43:09,880
Speaker 8: the clansmen.

2970
02:43:09,959 --> 02:43:14,879
Speaker 3: We couldn't reconstruct well, do you know what we should construct?

2971
02:43:15,320 --> 02:43:15,600
Speaker 4: Molly?

2972
02:43:16,480 --> 02:43:17,120
Speaker 3: Oh god, Yeah.

2973
02:43:17,200 --> 02:43:18,560
Speaker 8: Robert told me that if I don't come up with

2974
02:43:18,560 --> 02:43:20,680
Speaker 8: a cool way to throw to ads, he's gonna put

2975
02:43:20,680 --> 02:43:22,480
Speaker 8: me in a dog kennel and air drop me onto

2976
02:43:22,520 --> 02:43:25,680
Speaker 8: an island where successful podcasters hunt people like me for sports.

2977
02:43:25,720 --> 02:43:27,640
Speaker 14: So that does sound like something he would say. But

2978
02:43:28,080 --> 02:43:30,760
Speaker 14: we could construct a compelling ad transition.

2979
02:43:32,480 --> 02:43:45,640
Speaker 8: Let's take you to the ads, all right, and we

2980
02:43:45,720 --> 02:43:48,000
Speaker 8: are back Garrison, and I'm going to tell you what's

2981
02:43:48,080 --> 02:43:49,320
Speaker 8: in these lawsuits.

2982
02:43:49,920 --> 02:43:54,000
Speaker 14: I'm so excited to hear about Patriot Front having to

2983
02:43:54,040 --> 02:43:56,680
Speaker 14: read a niche law.

2984
02:43:57,000 --> 02:43:59,760
Speaker 3: Well, the problem is they're pretending they don't have to.

2985
02:44:00,120 --> 02:44:05,280
Speaker 14: Oh well, that is also what I would do. I

2986
02:44:05,320 --> 02:44:07,760
Speaker 14: would be like, no, no way, I am not reading that.

2987
02:44:08,000 --> 02:44:10,600
Speaker 3: Fuck you. Well, we'll get to that in a second.

2988
02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:14,000
Speaker 8: So the first case filed was in Richmond, Virginia, so

2989
02:44:14,080 --> 02:44:15,240
Speaker 8: right here in my backyard.

2990
02:44:15,480 --> 02:44:15,880
Speaker 3: All right.

2991
02:44:16,400 --> 02:44:19,320
Speaker 8: So, thanks to repeated leaks of Patriot Front's internal communications

2992
02:44:19,320 --> 02:44:22,520
Speaker 8: and documents, we actually have video of them doing what's

2993
02:44:22,560 --> 02:44:24,480
Speaker 8: being alleged in this lawsuit.

2994
02:44:24,400 --> 02:44:27,600
Speaker 3: Which is inconvenient for them. It's not great.

2995
02:44:28,280 --> 02:44:30,879
Speaker 8: So the suit alleges and the video literally shows that.

2996
02:44:30,920 --> 02:44:33,160
Speaker 8: In October twenty twenty one, a couple of Patriot Front

2997
02:44:33,200 --> 02:44:35,800
Speaker 8: members vandalized a mural in a public park in Richmond.

2998
02:44:36,400 --> 02:44:40,160
Speaker 8: The mural celebrated American tennis legend Arthur Ash. Ash was

2999
02:44:40,160 --> 02:44:42,680
Speaker 8: born and raised in Richmond and started playing tennis as

3000
02:44:42,680 --> 02:44:45,959
Speaker 8: a child in Brookfield Park, which in the fifties when

3001
02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:47,640
Speaker 8: Ash was a child, was one of the few public

3002
02:44:47,680 --> 02:44:51,280
Speaker 8: parks opened to black residents. It was also the park

3003
02:44:51,320 --> 02:44:53,960
Speaker 8: that his father was the caretaker of. Right, So Arthur

3004
02:44:54,000 --> 02:44:57,200
Speaker 8: ash Richmond public parks, like this is a relationship from

3005
02:44:57,200 --> 02:44:57,879
Speaker 8: his childhood.

3006
02:44:57,920 --> 02:44:59,520
Speaker 3: R Yeah, it's like a very important place.

3007
02:45:00,240 --> 02:45:02,280
Speaker 8: You know, one of the best tennis players in American history,

3008
02:45:02,480 --> 02:45:05,280
Speaker 8: and he grew up his father worked for the park.

3009
02:45:05,320 --> 02:45:07,920
Speaker 8: He learned to play tennis at that park. That park,

3010
02:45:07,959 --> 02:45:10,360
Speaker 8: Brookfield Park, actually no longer exists, but the park where

3011
02:45:10,360 --> 02:45:13,120
Speaker 8: the mural was installed is in a predominantly black neighborhood.

3012
02:45:13,360 --> 02:45:13,640
Speaker 3: Okay.

3013
02:45:14,640 --> 02:45:16,880
Speaker 8: In the video they filmed of the vandalism, one Patriot

3014
02:45:16,920 --> 02:45:20,200
Speaker 8: Front member supportively tells two others to quote, get the

3015
02:45:20,280 --> 02:45:21,760
Speaker 8: fucking N word.

3016
02:45:22,200 --> 02:45:24,039
Speaker 3: They say it, I'm not, yeah.

3017
02:45:23,800 --> 02:45:26,120
Speaker 8: But the N words face as they're covering it up

3018
02:45:26,120 --> 02:45:31,640
Speaker 8: with spray paint and then play. So they filmed this themselves, right,

3019
02:45:32,200 --> 02:45:35,800
Speaker 8: They filmed this themselves and used it in later promotional videos.

3020
02:45:35,879 --> 02:45:39,160
Speaker 3: Videotaping this crime spree was the best idea we ever had.

3021
02:45:39,600 --> 02:45:42,840
Speaker 14: This is so funny that they just can't stop filming

3022
02:45:42,840 --> 02:45:43,800
Speaker 14: them doing crimes.

3023
02:45:43,959 --> 02:45:47,199
Speaker 8: Like they're not just taking notes on the conspiracy, they're

3024
02:45:47,200 --> 02:45:49,760
Speaker 8: filming themselves enthusiastically participating in it.

3025
02:45:49,840 --> 02:45:49,960
Speaker 4: Right.

3026
02:45:50,440 --> 02:45:50,760
Speaker 3: Funny.

3027
02:45:50,800 --> 02:45:52,800
Speaker 8: You know in the promotional videos there's no sound, but

3028
02:45:52,959 --> 02:45:57,160
Speaker 8: in the leaked documents. It's the original uncut video like.

3029
02:45:57,160 --> 02:45:59,800
Speaker 14: Once you have like discovery or something. Also, all all

3030
02:46:00,040 --> 02:46:03,199
Speaker 14: all that audio exists, that is, it is the privilege

3031
02:46:03,200 --> 02:46:04,680
Speaker 14: of the court to be able to listen to that.

3032
02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:07,560
Speaker 8: Well we have so you know when they cut their promos,

3033
02:46:07,600 --> 02:46:09,959
Speaker 8: you know, they're playing like cool music over it. But

3034
02:46:10,040 --> 02:46:12,840
Speaker 8: in the leaked version that we got from I think

3035
02:46:12,840 --> 02:46:14,520
Speaker 8: it was in the Rocket Chat leaks.

3036
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:15,560
Speaker 3: It was in the second big leak.

3037
02:46:15,920 --> 02:46:17,640
Speaker 8: Okay, you can hear them saying, like, you know, get

3038
02:46:17,640 --> 02:46:20,039
Speaker 8: the fucking N words face as they're spray painting over

3039
02:46:20,280 --> 02:46:23,800
Speaker 8: Arthur Ash's face and then stenciling over that with their logo.

3040
02:46:24,160 --> 02:46:33,880
Speaker 3: Sure, they're just like, hey, it was us. They're just

3041
02:46:33,920 --> 02:46:35,080
Speaker 3: like leaving it fair.

3042
02:46:35,680 --> 02:46:37,760
Speaker 8: And just so we're super clear about this, this is

3043
02:46:37,879 --> 02:46:40,320
Speaker 8: racially motivated. Put that on the tape, like.

3044
02:46:40,879 --> 02:46:43,080
Speaker 3: Uh yeah yeah.

3045
02:46:43,120 --> 02:46:45,840
Speaker 8: And so this is probably the weaker of the three cases. Right,

3046
02:46:46,560 --> 02:46:49,000
Speaker 8: the plaintiffs in this suit are basing their nineteen eighty

3047
02:46:49,040 --> 02:46:51,000
Speaker 8: five claim that you know, this is a racially motivated

3048
02:46:51,000 --> 02:46:53,840
Speaker 8: conspiracy to interfere with the right of black residents to

3049
02:46:53,959 --> 02:46:56,400
Speaker 8: enjoy a place of public accommodation, right that a place

3050
02:46:56,440 --> 02:46:58,840
Speaker 8: of public accommodation is sort of the legal structure for

3051
02:46:59,240 --> 02:47:00,959
Speaker 8: places where you're not a to fuck with my rights.

3052
02:47:01,200 --> 02:47:03,720
Speaker 8: In this case, it's a public park. The suit makes

3053
02:47:03,720 --> 02:47:06,560
Speaker 8: a similar and separate claim under Virginia's civil conspiracy law

3054
02:47:06,800 --> 02:47:10,320
Speaker 8: for racial, religious, and ethnic harassment, and unlike the other

3055
02:47:10,360 --> 02:47:13,160
Speaker 8: two suits, this complaint is pretty specific about who the

3056
02:47:13,200 --> 02:47:16,560
Speaker 8: defendants are, because they recorded the planning meeting and the

3057
02:47:16,560 --> 02:47:20,640
Speaker 8: act of vandalism, and because anti fascist researchers have identified

3058
02:47:20,680 --> 02:47:24,240
Speaker 8: many of the real names behind the pseudonyms. So these

3059
02:47:24,280 --> 02:47:27,279
Speaker 8: plaintiffs name not just the organization itself and Thomas Rousseau,

3060
02:47:27,360 --> 02:47:30,320
Speaker 8: but seven individual members who were involved, and they hope

3061
02:47:30,320 --> 02:47:34,000
Speaker 8: to identify nineteen John Doe defendants in discovery. And so

3062
02:47:34,040 --> 02:47:36,119
Speaker 8: the most recent suit, the third one to be filed.

3063
02:47:36,120 --> 02:47:37,680
Speaker 8: We'll get back to the second one and a second

3064
02:47:38,120 --> 02:47:40,359
Speaker 8: is similar to the Richmond suit because it also arises

3065
02:47:40,360 --> 02:47:42,400
Speaker 8: out of an instance of vandalism. But this one looks

3066
02:47:42,400 --> 02:47:44,840
Speaker 8: a little stronger. I think I should be clear I'm

3067
02:47:44,840 --> 02:47:48,959
Speaker 8: not a lawyer. I just an enthusiastic consumer of the law.

3068
02:47:49,680 --> 02:47:54,120
Speaker 14: Yes, you spent a lot of time reading what I

3069
02:47:54,160 --> 02:47:56,760
Speaker 14: would call extremely boring documents.

3070
02:47:57,000 --> 02:47:59,119
Speaker 8: Oh, I love my document. I pay thousands of dollars

3071
02:47:59,160 --> 02:48:02,360
Speaker 8: a year to look at these documents. Oh, it's that

3072
02:48:02,440 --> 02:48:05,680
Speaker 8: drill post like, please, someone please help me, someone who's

3073
02:48:05,680 --> 02:48:06,400
Speaker 8: good at budgeting.

3074
02:48:08,080 --> 02:48:09,840
Speaker 14: We will do our best to give you as many

3075
02:48:09,840 --> 02:48:11,080
Speaker 14: documents as you want, Molly.

3076
02:48:11,959 --> 02:48:14,199
Speaker 8: These documents cost ten cents a page. I'm a single

3077
02:48:14,200 --> 02:48:16,960
Speaker 8: issue voter on free access to federal court documents.

3078
02:48:17,040 --> 02:48:19,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, all my homies hate Pacer.

3079
02:48:20,160 --> 02:48:21,960
Speaker 8: So in the Richmond case, we have black residents and

3080
02:48:22,000 --> 02:48:24,560
Speaker 8: a black neighborhood alleging a racial intimidation at a place

3081
02:48:24,600 --> 02:48:27,480
Speaker 8: of public accommodation, a public park. But in North Dakota,

3082
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:30,120
Speaker 8: the suit is brought by the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition,

3083
02:48:30,200 --> 02:48:32,879
Speaker 8: the Immigrant Development Center, and an unnamed plaintiff who works

3084
02:48:32,879 --> 02:48:35,440
Speaker 8: at the Immigrant Development Center. I mean it arises out

3085
02:48:35,480 --> 02:48:38,800
Speaker 8: of two acts of vandalism at the International Market Plaza

3086
02:48:38,840 --> 02:48:42,200
Speaker 8: and Fargo, North Dakota. The International Market Plaza is run

3087
02:48:42,240 --> 02:48:45,040
Speaker 8: by the Immigrant Development Center. It's a large indoor market

3088
02:48:45,120 --> 02:48:48,039
Speaker 8: space that supports immigrant run small businesses and has community

3089
02:48:48,080 --> 02:48:49,720
Speaker 8: spaces for the immigrant community.

3090
02:48:49,959 --> 02:48:50,560
Speaker 3: Sounds cool.

3091
02:48:50,800 --> 02:48:53,360
Speaker 8: Yeah, there's shops and restaurants and after school programs for

3092
02:48:53,480 --> 02:48:55,240
Speaker 8: kids and business development classes.

3093
02:48:55,520 --> 02:48:56,800
Speaker 3: I'm sure there's great food.

3094
02:48:57,280 --> 02:48:57,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3095
02:48:57,520 --> 02:49:01,959
Speaker 8: It seems nice, they seem like people. In September of

3096
02:49:01,959 --> 02:49:05,240
Speaker 8: twenty twenty two, Patriot Front trustpassed onto the nonprofits property

3097
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:08,680
Speaker 8: and spray painted the windows with their logo. And so

3098
02:49:08,760 --> 02:49:11,080
Speaker 8: this was not an isolated incident, right, Patriot funt had

3099
02:49:11,080 --> 02:49:13,120
Speaker 8: targeted other businesses in the Fargo area and the months

3100
02:49:13,200 --> 02:49:15,800
Speaker 8: leading up to this, including a queer worker owned coffee shop.

3101
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:18,360
Speaker 8: So the tenants at the marketplace knew who Patriot Front

3102
02:49:18,400 --> 02:49:20,440
Speaker 8: was and what the message is in the windows meant,

3103
02:49:21,000 --> 02:49:23,240
Speaker 8: and they were understandably frightened to have been targeted and

3104
02:49:23,280 --> 02:49:26,600
Speaker 8: fearful that this could escalate, and it did. Two days later,

3105
02:49:26,600 --> 02:49:29,040
Speaker 8: Patriot Front came back to the marketplace and destroyed a

3106
02:49:29,120 --> 02:49:33,480
Speaker 8: mural celebrating multiculturalism, including placing Patriot Front logos over the

3107
02:49:33,480 --> 02:49:35,560
Speaker 8: faces of women in hijobs in one panel.

3108
02:49:35,280 --> 02:49:35,800
Speaker 3: Of the mural.

3109
02:49:36,520 --> 02:49:40,440
Speaker 14: Yeah, I've had to like call up shops or businesses

3110
02:49:40,480 --> 02:49:43,720
Speaker 14: after they've been targeted or I've like seen I've like

3111
02:49:43,760 --> 02:49:46,520
Speaker 14: seen on telegram like oh, this thing's happening in this

3112
02:49:46,560 --> 02:49:49,200
Speaker 14: area and be like explained to like this poor this

3113
02:49:49,400 --> 02:49:52,200
Speaker 14: like poor employee, like who who this is and why

3114
02:49:52,240 --> 02:49:54,720
Speaker 14: it's happening, and like what to do? Because they're often

3115
02:49:54,800 --> 02:49:58,080
Speaker 14: very like confused, they don't know what's going on. Yeah,

3116
02:49:58,120 --> 02:50:00,120
Speaker 14: it sucks that which they started like involved just to

3117
02:50:00,160 --> 02:50:05,040
Speaker 14: other people trying to like make just like live out

3118
02:50:05,040 --> 02:50:07,840
Speaker 14: their day, but also like specifically targeting people of color,

3119
02:50:08,440 --> 02:50:10,920
Speaker 14: targeting the LGBTQ community, and.

3120
02:50:11,320 --> 02:50:11,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is.

3121
02:50:11,959 --> 02:50:12,280
Speaker 1: It is.

3122
02:50:12,360 --> 02:50:15,200
Speaker 14: It is a fortunately very common occurrence because a lot

3123
02:50:15,240 --> 02:50:18,880
Speaker 14: of Patriot Front's activity, when they're not marching around getting

3124
02:50:18,920 --> 02:50:22,680
Speaker 14: beat up in Philadelphia, are just putting up like stickers

3125
02:50:22,760 --> 02:50:24,920
Speaker 14: and doing graffiti like that. That is kind of most

3126
02:50:24,920 --> 02:50:27,240
Speaker 14: of what they do. Sometimes they'll do like a banner

3127
02:50:27,280 --> 02:50:28,039
Speaker 14: drop or something.

3128
02:50:28,440 --> 02:50:29,920
Speaker 8: Well they think about the stickers is I don't know

3129
02:50:30,000 --> 02:50:33,920
Speaker 8: if everyone is deep in lore, but it's required.

3130
02:50:34,800 --> 02:50:36,560
Speaker 3: So it's that's what they call their activism.

3131
02:50:36,640 --> 02:50:36,800
Speaker 6: Right.

3132
02:50:36,840 --> 02:50:38,600
Speaker 14: In order to be a member, you have to post

3133
02:50:38,640 --> 02:50:40,879
Speaker 14: pictures of you putting up stickers.

3134
02:50:40,840 --> 02:50:43,640
Speaker 8: Like there are like spreadsheets and documents, and your network

3135
02:50:43,680 --> 02:50:45,840
Speaker 8: director is keeping tabs, and you have to report in

3136
02:50:45,879 --> 02:50:48,560
Speaker 8: every week about what activism you've engaged in, and you

3137
02:50:48,560 --> 02:50:51,320
Speaker 8: have to provide video and photo proof of you doing

3138
02:50:51,600 --> 02:50:53,119
Speaker 8: these acts of vandalism, which.

3139
02:50:52,920 --> 02:50:55,320
Speaker 14: Is a pretty smart on Patriot Front's part, because they

3140
02:50:55,360 --> 02:50:59,800
Speaker 14: also sell their stickers so it's it's a great pyramid scheme.

3141
02:51:00,120 --> 02:51:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's got MLM energy. Yeah, I know.

3142
02:51:03,440 --> 02:51:06,280
Speaker 14: Uh, Robert Rundo and the Patriot Front guy were like

3143
02:51:06,360 --> 02:51:09,880
Speaker 14: working together on a sticker manufacturing business for a while.

3144
02:51:10,320 --> 02:51:13,080
Speaker 14: I don't think that's working out super well for Rundo, but.

3145
02:51:14,040 --> 02:51:18,280
Speaker 8: Uh, yeah, he's some currently awaiting trial in prison, right

3146
02:51:18,480 --> 02:51:19,000
Speaker 8: I believe.

3147
02:51:19,040 --> 02:51:23,440
Speaker 14: So, yeah, after fleeing to what is it like Romania

3148
02:51:23,560 --> 02:51:29,360
Speaker 14: for like Belgrade expert, Yes, yes, Serbia, that that's that's

3149
02:51:29,360 --> 02:51:29,720
Speaker 14: where it was.

3150
02:51:29,800 --> 02:51:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, rough.

3151
02:51:31,600 --> 02:51:33,360
Speaker 8: But so in this case, you know, it's this is

3152
02:51:33,400 --> 02:51:35,360
Speaker 8: not just stickers, right, the stickers that you can peel

3153
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:37,280
Speaker 8: off it. You know, you're uncomfortable, you're scared, but you

3154
02:51:37,280 --> 02:51:39,040
Speaker 8: can peel tho stickers off and move on with your day.

3155
02:51:39,440 --> 02:51:42,520
Speaker 8: They spray painted over a mural that cost forty five

3156
02:51:42,640 --> 02:51:43,680
Speaker 8: thousand dollars.

3157
02:51:43,920 --> 02:51:47,960
Speaker 14: Oh so well this is this is interesting because I'm

3158
02:51:47,959 --> 02:51:51,840
Speaker 14: not a law expert, but they may be financially liable

3159
02:51:51,959 --> 02:51:53,920
Speaker 14: for that extremely high cost.

3160
02:51:54,600 --> 02:51:56,520
Speaker 8: Right, So unlike in the Arthur Ash murral, which was

3161
02:51:56,560 --> 02:51:58,080
Speaker 8: property of the City of Richmond. You know, so the

3162
02:51:58,080 --> 02:52:00,480
Speaker 8: plaintiffs in that suit don't own that mural. They just

3163
02:52:00,920 --> 02:52:03,160
Speaker 8: feel that they've been infringed upon because now they're afraid

3164
02:52:03,160 --> 02:52:05,240
Speaker 8: to go to the public park. In this case, the

3165
02:52:05,280 --> 02:52:08,960
Speaker 8: plaintiff has been financially damaged to a significant degree.

3166
02:52:09,200 --> 02:52:10,160
Speaker 3: This mural was.

3167
02:52:10,320 --> 02:52:13,039
Speaker 8: They got a grant, they had community input, it was

3168
02:52:13,160 --> 02:52:15,959
Speaker 8: made by local artists, and now it is destroyed. It

3169
02:52:16,040 --> 02:52:18,920
Speaker 8: is a thing of value, it is their property, and

3170
02:52:18,959 --> 02:52:22,560
Speaker 8: the law really cares about property. Oh yeah, now we

3171
02:52:22,600 --> 02:52:27,199
Speaker 8: have quantifiable damage to property belonging to the plaintiff. After

3172
02:52:27,200 --> 02:52:29,840
Speaker 8: these two incidents, individual shopkeepers had to buy their own

3173
02:52:29,840 --> 02:52:32,560
Speaker 8: security cameras, They shortened their hours because they were scared

3174
02:52:32,560 --> 02:52:35,240
Speaker 8: to be thereafter dark, and the marketplace as a whole

3175
02:52:35,240 --> 02:52:38,439
Speaker 8: actually still operates on reduced hours due to safety concerns.

3176
02:52:39,280 --> 02:52:41,280
Speaker 8: The executive director of the nonprofit had to buy a

3177
02:52:41,280 --> 02:52:43,400
Speaker 8: security system for her home and doesn't like to go

3178
02:52:43,440 --> 02:52:47,000
Speaker 8: to work unaccompanied. I mean, it's genuine fear in this place.

3179
02:52:47,080 --> 02:52:47,280
Speaker 4: Now.

3180
02:52:47,840 --> 02:52:50,000
Speaker 14: That's the other thing is that these sorts of acts

3181
02:52:50,000 --> 02:52:52,680
Speaker 14: of vandalism come with like an implicit threat of violence

3182
02:52:53,040 --> 02:52:55,280
Speaker 14: that we can get together a crew of five guys

3183
02:52:55,320 --> 02:52:58,119
Speaker 14: wearing masks and show up at this place of work,

3184
02:52:58,200 --> 02:53:00,520
Speaker 14: or we could already be there when you arrive.

3185
02:53:01,320 --> 02:53:03,959
Speaker 8: Well, there was the Actually in the lawsuit, one of

3186
02:53:03,959 --> 02:53:06,200
Speaker 8: the paragress in the suit says, you know that the

3187
02:53:06,280 --> 02:53:08,880
Speaker 8: day after this happened, because the day in between the

3188
02:53:08,920 --> 02:53:12,039
Speaker 8: two separate acts, a couple of white guys acting sketchy

3189
02:53:12,080 --> 02:53:14,680
Speaker 8: were wandering around the marketplace taking pictures of people.

3190
02:53:14,800 --> 02:53:16,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet yeah, people are scared.

3191
02:53:17,080 --> 02:53:21,520
Speaker 8: The marketplace's immigrant shopkeepers and customers absolutely understood the intent

3192
02:53:21,600 --> 02:53:23,760
Speaker 8: of this vandalism, and it was the same message that

3193
02:53:23,800 --> 02:53:27,400
Speaker 8: they chanted here in Charlottesville. You will not replace us,

3194
02:53:27,520 --> 02:53:30,880
Speaker 8: right loud and clear, those in that spray paint. And

3195
02:53:30,920 --> 02:53:32,920
Speaker 8: so their ability to transact business, to use a place

3196
02:53:32,959 --> 02:53:36,279
Speaker 8: of public accommodation, to feel safe in public was taken

3197
02:53:36,280 --> 02:53:39,360
Speaker 8: from them in an organized, pre planned act, arising out

3198
02:53:39,360 --> 02:53:42,400
Speaker 8: of discriminatory animus. And again that that sort of discriminatory

3199
02:53:42,440 --> 02:53:45,880
Speaker 8: animus clause is important in application of this statue.

3200
02:53:45,920 --> 02:53:46,080
Speaker 7: Right.

3201
02:53:46,520 --> 02:53:48,680
Speaker 8: So, in the North Dakota suit, they're suing Patriot Front,

3202
02:53:48,720 --> 02:53:52,320
Speaker 8: the organization Thomas Rousseau as its leader, and the regional

3203
02:53:52,360 --> 02:53:56,120
Speaker 8: network director for that area, Trevor Vellescu. And they're also

3204
02:53:56,160 --> 02:54:00,160
Speaker 8: seeking to identify ten John Does in discovery, so they

3205
02:54:00,200 --> 02:54:01,720
Speaker 8: don't know who all of these guys are that are

3206
02:54:01,720 --> 02:54:05,720
Speaker 8: getting sued, but they're gonna find out. And the third suit,

3207
02:54:05,840 --> 02:54:09,520
Speaker 8: Boston lawsuit, is really the most straightforward. A black man

3208
02:54:09,560 --> 02:54:10,240
Speaker 8: got assaulted.

3209
02:54:10,600 --> 02:54:11,240
Speaker 3: There's video.

3210
02:54:11,879 --> 02:54:14,480
Speaker 8: The video is actually taken by a member of Patriot

3211
02:54:14,480 --> 02:54:17,920
Speaker 8: Front from the Again, it.

3212
02:54:17,879 --> 02:54:19,039
Speaker 3: Gets worse, it gets worse.

3213
02:54:19,120 --> 02:54:21,480
Speaker 8: So the video was taken by the member from inside

3214
02:54:21,520 --> 02:54:23,840
Speaker 8: the ranks of the march, and it shows members making

3215
02:54:23,840 --> 02:54:27,720
Speaker 8: physical contact with Charles Morrel on a public sidewalk in Boston.

3216
02:54:27,840 --> 02:54:29,480
Speaker 8: So they were up there. It was just before fourth

3217
02:54:29,520 --> 02:54:32,320
Speaker 8: of July. They were marching on Boston's Freedom Trail.

3218
02:54:32,959 --> 02:54:36,320
Speaker 3: I think I remember this one, yeah.

3219
02:54:35,560 --> 02:54:39,080
Speaker 8: And Charles Morrell was outside the public library. He was

3220
02:54:39,240 --> 02:54:41,360
Speaker 8: a busker, he was playing music outside the library on

3221
02:54:41,360 --> 02:54:46,760
Speaker 8: the sidewalk. And this video didn't get leaked. This video

3222
02:54:46,840 --> 02:54:52,240
Speaker 8: they posted themselves, they proudly on their telegram channel, yep,

3223
02:54:52,400 --> 02:54:54,960
Speaker 8: and they posted it on their telegram channel the day

3224
02:54:55,040 --> 02:54:56,560
Speaker 8: the lawsuit was filed.

3225
02:54:56,959 --> 02:55:01,640
Speaker 14: Genius genius move. Once again, the galaxy of brain folks

3226
02:55:01,680 --> 02:55:05,119
Speaker 14: over at Patriot Front just cannot stop putting pretty dog

3227
02:55:05,160 --> 02:55:08,000
Speaker 14: shit electronic music over videos of them doing crimes.

3228
02:55:08,879 --> 02:55:12,000
Speaker 8: And so even though I would say if thirteen months

3229
02:55:12,040 --> 02:55:15,119
Speaker 8: after this incident occurred, I'm just randomly posting a video

3230
02:55:15,840 --> 02:55:16,640
Speaker 8: of this happening.

3231
02:55:16,840 --> 02:55:17,640
Speaker 3: That's so weird.

3232
02:55:18,760 --> 02:55:20,880
Speaker 8: I would say it's probably because you know that you're

3233
02:55:20,920 --> 02:55:22,800
Speaker 8: being sued. But there are a few They have not

3234
02:55:22,879 --> 02:55:27,480
Speaker 8: acknowledged this lawsuit. They don't acknowledge that the suit exists.

3235
02:55:26,720 --> 02:55:30,039
Speaker 14: Which which the government loves. When people don't acknowledge lawsuits

3236
02:55:30,040 --> 02:55:31,000
Speaker 14: that are happening to them.

3237
02:55:31,360 --> 02:55:33,480
Speaker 3: You can't just like la la la la la your

3238
02:55:33,520 --> 02:55:34,880
Speaker 3: way out of a lawsuit. Red.

3239
02:55:35,040 --> 02:55:38,600
Speaker 14: You can try to go into hiding like forever and yeah,

3240
02:55:38,800 --> 02:55:40,440
Speaker 14: we'll see how that goes.

3241
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:43,000
Speaker 8: And so, just a few weeks ago, when Patriot Front

3242
02:55:43,040 --> 02:55:44,840
Speaker 8: was like wandering around in the snow at the March

3243
02:55:44,840 --> 02:55:48,960
Speaker 8: for Life in DC, a reporter asked Rousseau about the

3244
02:55:48,959 --> 02:55:50,880
Speaker 8: incident in Boston. He didn't bring up the lawsuit.

3245
02:55:50,879 --> 02:55:52,160
Speaker 3: I wish he had. I would love to get him

3246
02:55:52,160 --> 02:55:53,240
Speaker 3: on tape on that one.

3247
02:55:53,280 --> 02:55:55,400
Speaker 8: But you asked him about the incident in Boston, and

3248
02:55:55,480 --> 02:55:57,880
Speaker 8: Rousseau continues to claim that, like, look, we've posted the

3249
02:55:57,920 --> 02:55:59,720
Speaker 8: video and it exonerates us.

3250
02:56:01,720 --> 02:56:04,959
Speaker 3: I'm sure, oh, I'm sure it does, buddy. When I

3251
02:56:05,000 --> 02:56:05,360
Speaker 3: watched the.

3252
02:56:05,400 --> 02:56:08,160
Speaker 8: Video, I mostly just see a masked gang of fascist

3253
02:56:08,240 --> 02:56:11,640
Speaker 8: using their custom made and branded metal shields to beat

3254
02:56:11,680 --> 02:56:14,000
Speaker 8: a black man who's using a public sidewalk, forcing him

3255
02:56:14,040 --> 02:56:15,520
Speaker 8: into the street and slamming his head into the pole

3256
02:56:15,560 --> 02:56:17,320
Speaker 8: and he had to get stitches. But I guess it's

3257
02:56:17,360 --> 02:56:19,400
Speaker 8: like it's up for the courts to decide if him

3258
02:56:19,400 --> 02:56:21,560
Speaker 8: being in their way was the real crime here.

3259
02:56:22,400 --> 02:56:23,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they was.

3260
02:56:23,680 --> 02:56:28,240
Speaker 14: I mean it's funny because like it's it's it's not funny,

3261
02:56:28,240 --> 02:56:30,640
Speaker 14: But I have I have, I have seen cops before

3262
02:56:30,840 --> 02:56:36,560
Speaker 14: used the exact same justification. Yes, it is different because

3263
02:56:36,560 --> 02:56:41,000
Speaker 14: cops are special little boys because you can't sue them. Yeah,

3264
02:56:41,080 --> 02:56:43,560
Speaker 14: but no, it is funny how much Patriot Front are

3265
02:56:43,600 --> 02:56:46,000
Speaker 14: just trying to act like want to be cops who

3266
02:56:46,080 --> 02:56:47,600
Speaker 14: do graffiti.

3267
02:56:48,240 --> 02:56:49,720
Speaker 8: Right, Like if you wanted to be a riot cop,

3268
02:56:49,800 --> 02:56:51,199
Speaker 8: like most cities are hiring.

3269
02:56:51,120 --> 02:56:52,760
Speaker 3: Be a riot cop. That's not that hard.

3270
02:56:54,600 --> 02:56:56,360
Speaker 8: I've seen a lot of guys doing it that I

3271
02:56:56,400 --> 02:56:59,360
Speaker 8: don't think are capable of much else. Yeah, So in

3272
02:56:59,400 --> 02:57:01,959
Speaker 8: this in the bus in lawsuit, the name defendants are

3273
02:57:02,080 --> 02:57:05,640
Speaker 8: just Thomas Russo and Patriot Front, but they are hoping

3274
02:57:05,720 --> 02:57:08,680
Speaker 8: to identify John doe'es one through ninety nine.

3275
02:57:09,040 --> 02:57:11,680
Speaker 3: Well, I only wish them good luck.

3276
02:57:13,520 --> 02:57:16,240
Speaker 8: So Garrison, you were saying you know, you can't just

3277
02:57:16,320 --> 02:57:18,039
Speaker 8: hide forever, right, I.

3278
02:57:18,560 --> 02:57:24,240
Speaker 14: Usually not, Well, you could try, You can certainly that. Look,

3279
02:57:24,440 --> 02:57:27,840
Speaker 14: you can always try. There are certain people Hidig who

3280
02:57:27,879 --> 02:57:31,360
Speaker 14: I wish only the best. There are many others Hidig

3281
02:57:31,520 --> 02:57:34,280
Speaker 14: who I think are probably bad people. And it's not

3282
02:57:34,320 --> 02:57:37,119
Speaker 14: like I enjoy the violence of the state. But if

3283
02:57:37,160 --> 02:57:41,400
Speaker 14: someone happens to stumble into experience the experiencing the violence

3284
02:57:41,440 --> 02:57:44,000
Speaker 14: of the state will also wanting to wish violence upon

3285
02:57:44,000 --> 02:57:47,240
Speaker 14: me and my friends. I'm not gonna stop that from happening.

3286
02:57:48,120 --> 02:57:51,480
Speaker 8: So these lawsuits, right, they got filed, But filing a

3287
02:57:51,560 --> 02:57:54,240
Speaker 8: lawsuit just means you paid a fee to give it

3288
02:57:54,240 --> 02:57:57,039
Speaker 8: to the court clerk. When you're suing someone, you have

3289
02:57:57,080 --> 02:58:00,039
Speaker 8: to serve them with papers. To serve them with papers.

3290
02:58:00,040 --> 02:58:01,920
Speaker 3: You have to find them. You have to track them down.

3291
02:58:02,320 --> 02:58:04,080
Speaker 3: And normally that's pretty straightforward.

3292
02:58:04,120 --> 02:58:04,240
Speaker 7: Right.

3293
02:58:04,280 --> 02:58:06,280
Speaker 8: People have homes, they have jobs, they have routines, they

3294
02:58:06,320 --> 02:58:08,400
Speaker 8: have friends and family. There's places they go, there's places

3295
02:58:08,440 --> 02:58:10,920
Speaker 8: they shop. You can you can find most people because

3296
02:58:10,920 --> 02:58:13,560
Speaker 8: most people aren't hiding, and most people aren't good at hiding.

3297
02:58:13,800 --> 02:58:16,720
Speaker 8: But Thomas Rousseau does not seem to want to be found.

3298
02:58:17,520 --> 02:58:17,680
Speaker 7: Now.

3299
02:58:17,680 --> 02:58:21,039
Speaker 8: The first suit filed the Virginia suit. They did manage

3300
02:58:21,040 --> 02:58:23,520
Speaker 8: to serve Rousseau at that house in Grapevine, Texas that

3301
02:58:23,560 --> 02:58:26,880
Speaker 8: his father was had owned no longer owns, but he

3302
02:58:26,920 --> 02:58:29,040
Speaker 8: and some other Patriot Front members were living in that house.

3303
02:58:29,240 --> 02:58:29,480
Speaker 3: Yep.

3304
02:58:30,320 --> 02:58:32,760
Speaker 8: But not long after those papers were served to him there,

3305
02:58:33,000 --> 02:58:35,520
Speaker 8: that house was sold in a foreclosure sale.

3306
02:58:35,600 --> 02:58:41,400
Speaker 14: God, I'm sure that house smelled awful. Imagine Oh, it's.

3307
02:58:41,240 --> 02:58:43,400
Speaker 8: Like you've never got to feel bad for the foreclosure

3308
02:58:43,440 --> 02:58:47,840
Speaker 8: sale guy. It's like a gym locker in there. Imagine

3309
02:58:47,879 --> 02:58:49,520
Speaker 8: stafving to stage that house for sale.

3310
02:58:49,680 --> 02:58:53,480
Speaker 14: The only only worse at smell is inside the Patriot

3311
02:58:53,480 --> 02:58:57,560
Speaker 14: in front U hauls because oh wow, driving six hours

3312
02:58:57,600 --> 02:59:01,440
Speaker 14: in the Idaho the Idaho summer, with like thirty other

3313
02:59:01,600 --> 02:59:05,640
Speaker 14: guys in the back of that truck, it must be awful.

3314
02:59:06,560 --> 02:59:08,120
Speaker 8: Do you remember. I think he was in the first leak.

3315
02:59:08,200 --> 02:59:09,720
Speaker 8: Some of the guys were complaining about how when they

3316
02:59:09,760 --> 02:59:10,800
Speaker 8: had to ride in the back of the U haul

3317
02:59:10,840 --> 02:59:14,119
Speaker 8: they were getting sick and like passing out and be like.

3318
02:59:14,400 --> 02:59:18,199
Speaker 3: Oh, you're walked in there throwing up ivan just smell

3319
02:59:18,280 --> 02:59:20,320
Speaker 3: everyone else's vomits, but.

3320
02:59:20,240 --> 02:59:23,119
Speaker 8: Also like there's carbon monoxide and it's hot.

3321
02:59:23,160 --> 02:59:25,840
Speaker 3: Like you're not to be back there. It's so funny.

3322
02:59:26,240 --> 02:59:28,120
Speaker 8: But the advice that the advice that Russo gave them,

3323
02:59:28,120 --> 02:59:30,240
Speaker 8: when they were saying like, hey, like we were getting

3324
02:59:30,240 --> 02:59:32,080
Speaker 8: sick back there, like it's it's not safe, like we

3325
02:59:32,120 --> 02:59:36,400
Speaker 8: were barfing and passing out, he recommended that they practice overheating.

3326
02:59:36,640 --> 02:59:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, gett just get better.

3327
02:59:38,480 --> 02:59:42,680
Speaker 14: Get Yeah, like you like endurance tested, just start hanging

3328
02:59:42,680 --> 02:59:44,360
Speaker 14: out in the back of you hauls for fun.

3329
02:59:45,000 --> 02:59:47,000
Speaker 8: That's actually not how heatstroke works.

3330
02:59:47,040 --> 02:59:49,520
Speaker 14: But no, I'm pretty sure you could just think your

3331
02:59:49,520 --> 02:59:52,640
Speaker 14: way through heatstroke. I look, I guess I think a

3332
02:59:52,760 --> 02:59:55,640
Speaker 14: chat alpha male should be able to sit in a

3333
02:59:55,680 --> 03:00:01,320
Speaker 14: packed truck for seventeen hours be totally fine.

3334
03:00:02,120 --> 03:00:05,240
Speaker 8: So the house, the stinky house, sold foreclosed. So by

3335
03:00:05,240 --> 03:00:08,760
Speaker 8: the time the Boston lawsuit process server came to find

3336
03:00:08,840 --> 03:00:11,320
Speaker 8: him there, it was already for sale. Yeah, there's nobody,

3337
03:00:11,440 --> 03:00:13,560
Speaker 8: nobody to serve. So they hired a legal research firm.

3338
03:00:13,640 --> 03:00:16,200
Speaker 8: They sent process servers to addresses all over Texas and

3339
03:00:16,240 --> 03:00:19,200
Speaker 8: they came up empty. So what do you do when

3340
03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:21,520
Speaker 8: a guy who knows process servers are looking for him

3341
03:00:22,160 --> 03:00:22,879
Speaker 8: can't be found?

3342
03:00:23,080 --> 03:00:25,480
Speaker 3: Should have served him at that march in Washington, d C.

3343
03:00:26,680 --> 03:00:28,920
Speaker 8: Honestly, why were they not mobilized for that, I could

3344
03:00:28,959 --> 03:00:30,120
Speaker 8: have told you they were going to be there.

3345
03:00:30,200 --> 03:00:32,600
Speaker 14: I mean, I think that would require some collaboration with

3346
03:00:32,640 --> 03:00:34,600
Speaker 14: like anti fascists, researchers who like know when these things

3347
03:00:34,640 --> 03:00:36,720
Speaker 14: are happening, so like that, I think that's probably why

3348
03:00:36,800 --> 03:00:39,360
Speaker 14: is that that's just a little bit tricky. But if

3349
03:00:39,600 --> 03:00:42,440
Speaker 14: there were more willingness for collaboration, I think that probably

3350
03:00:42,440 --> 03:00:43,440
Speaker 14: could be successful.

3351
03:00:43,800 --> 03:00:44,480
Speaker 3: You can find him.

3352
03:00:44,600 --> 03:00:47,880
Speaker 8: Right, So, if I were two, for example, file a

3353
03:00:47,959 --> 03:00:49,560
Speaker 8: lawsuit against you today.

3354
03:00:49,840 --> 03:00:52,800
Speaker 3: Well, and I what if I did, I'm so innocent

3355
03:00:55,800 --> 03:00:57,840
Speaker 3: if I just never if I just filed my lawsuit,

3356
03:00:57,920 --> 03:00:59,520
Speaker 3: pay the fee to file it, but I just never

3357
03:00:59,560 --> 03:00:59,920
Speaker 3: served you.

3358
03:01:00,000 --> 03:01:02,039
Speaker 8: Oh, that's on me. That's my fault. I can't take

3359
03:01:02,040 --> 03:01:04,800
Speaker 8: the necessary steps. My suit's going to get dismissed. But

3360
03:01:04,840 --> 03:01:07,320
Speaker 8: if I'm really trying, I'm hiring investigators, I'm knocking on

3361
03:01:07,360 --> 03:01:09,200
Speaker 8: neighbors doors to ask if they've seen you. I'm looking

3362
03:01:09,280 --> 03:01:11,280
Speaker 8: under every rock for any sign of where you might be.

3363
03:01:11,959 --> 03:01:15,400
Speaker 8: That's different. That's not on me anymore, that's on you.

3364
03:01:15,920 --> 03:01:17,680
Speaker 8: And there's ample precedent for this right and the law

3365
03:01:17,720 --> 03:01:21,119
Speaker 8: is pretty clear. You can't escape being sued by playing

3366
03:01:21,160 --> 03:01:22,160
Speaker 8: cat and mouse.

3367
03:01:23,000 --> 03:01:24,840
Speaker 3: The old Tom and Jerry method.

3368
03:01:25,520 --> 03:01:27,039
Speaker 8: And I feel like once I start saying things like

3369
03:01:27,040 --> 03:01:28,920
Speaker 8: the federal rules of civil procedure, people are going to

3370
03:01:28,959 --> 03:01:31,120
Speaker 8: turn the podcast turn off.

3371
03:01:31,160 --> 03:01:33,040
Speaker 14: That doesn't for us today, folks, that it could happen here,

3372
03:01:33,080 --> 03:01:34,000
Speaker 14: Thank you for listening.

3373
03:01:34,800 --> 03:01:38,480
Speaker 8: But so in federal court, the rules allow alternative service

3374
03:01:38,520 --> 03:01:41,760
Speaker 8: by means that are allowable in that state. Right, so

3375
03:01:41,800 --> 03:01:44,320
Speaker 8: even though they're in federal court in North Dakota, they

3376
03:01:44,360 --> 03:01:47,840
Speaker 8: can use methods available in North Dakota courts to serve

3377
03:01:47,879 --> 03:01:51,320
Speaker 8: their defendants. And so in North Dakota, if you've tried

3378
03:01:51,320 --> 03:01:53,959
Speaker 8: your best, you've exhausted the normal means, conducted a diligent search,

3379
03:01:54,360 --> 03:01:57,360
Speaker 8: you can do what's called service by publication, which means

3380
03:01:57,400 --> 03:01:59,480
Speaker 8: you just publish a notice in the newspaper.

3381
03:02:00,080 --> 03:02:04,480
Speaker 14: Really, yeah, oh that's I didn't know that. That's interesting.

3382
03:02:05,200 --> 03:02:07,400
Speaker 8: And you have to you have to try really hard first, right,

3383
03:02:07,440 --> 03:02:10,520
Speaker 8: they really did try. They hired investigators, their hard servers,

3384
03:02:10,560 --> 03:02:12,959
Speaker 8: like they did, they did their due diligence. Yeah, and

3385
03:02:12,959 --> 03:02:15,680
Speaker 8: so the judge said, okay, you tried your best. Put

3386
03:02:15,680 --> 03:02:19,280
Speaker 8: it in the paper that they got mad. Put it

3387
03:02:19,320 --> 03:02:20,039
Speaker 8: in the paper.

3388
03:02:19,800 --> 03:02:22,000
Speaker 3: That they got sued. And so they did.

3389
03:02:22,200 --> 03:02:25,560
Speaker 8: They published the notification in a Cass County, North Dakota

3390
03:02:25,640 --> 03:02:28,280
Speaker 8: newspaper for a few months in a row. And so now,

3391
03:02:28,320 --> 03:02:31,760
Speaker 8: as far as that court is concerned, they've been served

3392
03:02:31,879 --> 03:02:32,560
Speaker 8: all right.

3393
03:02:33,240 --> 03:02:34,080
Speaker 7: And it worked.

3394
03:02:34,280 --> 03:02:36,480
Speaker 3: A few weeks later, they got a lawyer.

3395
03:02:37,680 --> 03:02:40,120
Speaker 14: Oh oh, okay, this is this is this is a

3396
03:02:40,400 --> 03:02:40,879
Speaker 14: news to me.

3397
03:02:41,280 --> 03:02:43,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, things are moving, things are making. For the North

3398
03:02:43,120 --> 03:02:47,360
Speaker 8: Dakota lawsuit, the two named individual defendants, Thomas Russeau and

3399
03:02:47,400 --> 03:02:48,760
Speaker 8: network director Trevor Bileescu.

3400
03:02:49,480 --> 03:02:50,280
Speaker 3: They got a lawyer.

3401
03:02:50,480 --> 03:02:52,920
Speaker 8: And his name's gonna sound familiar to you because it

3402
03:02:53,000 --> 03:02:54,520
Speaker 8: is Jason Lee Van Dyke.

3403
03:02:54,959 --> 03:02:59,560
Speaker 3: Oh oh well, I yeah, you gotta love Dyke.

3404
03:02:59,600 --> 03:02:59,760
Speaker 4: Cus.

3405
03:02:59,760 --> 03:03:03,039
Speaker 3: I'm like, what's not to love? What a good kind?

3406
03:03:03,200 --> 03:03:04,000
Speaker 3: Not a good kind?

3407
03:03:04,120 --> 03:03:07,360
Speaker 14: Oh wait wait, I'm receiving some special intel. This is

3408
03:03:07,400 --> 03:03:09,720
Speaker 14: not not what I was thinking.

3409
03:03:10,320 --> 03:03:10,400
Speaker 3: No.

3410
03:03:10,600 --> 03:03:13,240
Speaker 8: Unfortunately, if his name does sound familiar to it might

3411
03:03:13,280 --> 03:03:16,320
Speaker 8: be because for thirty six hours towards the end of

3412
03:03:16,320 --> 03:03:18,959
Speaker 8: twenty eighteen, he was the national chairman of the Proud Boys.

3413
03:03:19,160 --> 03:03:20,560
Speaker 8: But then actually he quit instead.

3414
03:03:22,160 --> 03:03:25,280
Speaker 3: Honestly, what are this? What are the smarter moves?

3415
03:03:26,440 --> 03:03:29,760
Speaker 8: So he'd represented Proud Boys in various legal actions over

3416
03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:32,520
Speaker 8: the years. He was a member for several years, but

3417
03:03:32,720 --> 03:03:36,320
Speaker 8: as his LinkedIn currently and rather aggressively notes, he is

3418
03:03:36,400 --> 03:03:38,160
Speaker 8: not a proud boy anymore.

3419
03:03:38,680 --> 03:03:41,920
Speaker 14: A lot of a lot of people are asking questions

3420
03:03:41,920 --> 03:03:45,360
Speaker 14: about my shirt already, saying I'm not a proud boy.

3421
03:03:45,560 --> 03:03:45,720
Speaker 4: Huh.

3422
03:03:46,040 --> 03:03:48,440
Speaker 14: Interesting, Yeah, I feel like I actually, I actually, I am

3423
03:03:48,400 --> 03:03:51,360
Speaker 14: familiar with this guy. He was involved in a suit

3424
03:03:51,520 --> 03:03:53,440
Speaker 14: with the group I was looking into a few years back.

3425
03:03:54,160 --> 03:03:56,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, he's done a little bit of movement lawyering, so

3426
03:03:56,120 --> 03:03:59,360
Speaker 8: this isn't his first rodeo. And he denies that he

3427
03:03:59,440 --> 03:04:01,320
Speaker 8: is a member of Patriot Front, though he has spoken

3428
03:04:01,360 --> 03:04:04,600
Speaker 8: to the press on numerous occasions claiming to represent various

3429
03:04:04,600 --> 03:04:05,119
Speaker 8: members of.

3430
03:04:05,040 --> 03:04:09,840
Speaker 3: Patriot He's non member. Yeah, I mean, I mean sure,

3431
03:04:10,000 --> 03:04:10,280
Speaker 3: I like.

3432
03:04:10,760 --> 03:04:14,040
Speaker 8: He has specifically denied allegations that he is Patriot Front

3433
03:04:14,120 --> 03:04:16,359
Speaker 8: user John Texas in the leaked.

3434
03:04:16,240 --> 03:04:19,600
Speaker 3: Chats, although oh, okay, well, he.

3435
03:04:19,520 --> 03:04:21,840
Speaker 8: Says that he is not John Texas has a lot

3436
03:04:21,879 --> 03:04:25,960
Speaker 8: in common with Jason Leevenda But okay, Jason le Vandyke

3437
03:04:26,040 --> 03:04:27,480
Speaker 8: denies that he is John Texas.

3438
03:04:27,760 --> 03:04:29,160
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I'm sure.

3439
03:04:29,760 --> 03:04:31,920
Speaker 14: I look, I have no reason to not trust a dyke,

3440
03:04:32,160 --> 03:04:34,480
Speaker 14: so yeah, I'm sure that's fine.

3441
03:04:34,760 --> 03:04:38,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, And it's interesting. So he lives in North Texas

3442
03:04:38,320 --> 03:04:40,680
Speaker 8: right where you know. Oh oh, he does home home

3443
03:04:40,720 --> 03:04:43,800
Speaker 8: base for these Patriot Front boys. Yeah, he's never practiced

3444
03:04:43,840 --> 03:04:46,400
Speaker 8: in North Dakota before. He's not barred in North Dakota.

3445
03:04:46,720 --> 03:04:50,600
Speaker 8: Wait what inexplicably? So you know, you have to take

3446
03:04:50,640 --> 03:04:53,760
Speaker 8: the bar exam to be in a state bar normally.

3447
03:04:53,959 --> 03:04:56,280
Speaker 8: Normally to get admitted to a federal court, you have

3448
03:04:56,360 --> 03:04:59,760
Speaker 8: to be barred in that state. North Dakota doesn't require that.

3449
03:05:00,120 --> 03:05:02,360
Speaker 8: Just have to pay a fee. Okay, So it's a

3450
03:05:02,360 --> 03:05:06,200
Speaker 8: little it's strange. He applied to be admitted to the

3451
03:05:07,360 --> 03:05:09,879
Speaker 8: federal court in North Dakota right around the time this

3452
03:05:09,959 --> 03:05:11,040
Speaker 8: lawsuit got filed.

3453
03:05:12,879 --> 03:05:13,560
Speaker 3: Huh.

3454
03:05:13,720 --> 03:05:16,840
Speaker 8: But then he didn't actually enter an appearance until the

3455
03:05:16,959 --> 03:05:19,560
Speaker 8: judge said, yeah, they've been served. You can't hide.

3456
03:05:20,240 --> 03:05:22,959
Speaker 3: So he didn't know about it, Yeah, he was just yes,

3457
03:05:23,200 --> 03:05:23,720
Speaker 3: I guess.

3458
03:05:23,720 --> 03:05:25,840
Speaker 14: It seems like it seems like he knew he was

3459
03:05:25,879 --> 03:05:29,039
Speaker 14: just working with Patriot Front to make it harder to

3460
03:05:29,080 --> 03:05:32,680
Speaker 14: be served. Is Again, that's not a legal claim I'm making.

3461
03:05:32,760 --> 03:05:35,200
Speaker 14: I'm just just making a guess.

3462
03:05:35,400 --> 03:05:38,480
Speaker 8: I'm just saying he has never practiced in North Dakota before,

3463
03:05:38,640 --> 03:05:42,000
Speaker 8: but he did apply to be admitted to the court

3464
03:05:42,400 --> 03:05:45,199
Speaker 8: around the time the lawsuit was filed. That's ah interesting,

3465
03:05:45,760 --> 03:05:48,040
Speaker 8: the boss and case is a little wilder. Right, So

3466
03:05:48,160 --> 03:05:51,080
Speaker 8: it's twenty twenty four, we're all online, and it's not

3467
03:05:51,160 --> 03:05:53,400
Speaker 8: actually unheard of to get permission from the court to

3468
03:05:53,440 --> 03:05:57,080
Speaker 8: serve someone electronically if you've tried everything else. Yeah, I've

3469
03:05:57,120 --> 03:05:59,560
Speaker 8: heard of cases where someone got served by a Facebook messenger,

3470
03:05:59,600 --> 03:06:01,000
Speaker 8: which just feels demeaning.

3471
03:06:01,160 --> 03:06:04,920
Speaker 14: Wow, that's that's so depressing. Imagine you can send.

3472
03:06:04,800 --> 03:06:08,959
Speaker 3: A Minion sticker with it. Oh god, horrible vibes.

3473
03:06:09,240 --> 03:06:11,120
Speaker 8: But I need to do a little more research to

3474
03:06:11,120 --> 03:06:13,400
Speaker 8: figure out if this is the first time a federal

3475
03:06:13,520 --> 03:06:16,400
Speaker 8: judge has had to decide whether a gab d M.

3476
03:06:16,920 --> 03:06:21,560
Speaker 14: Is legally So you know your joke, there's no way, no,

3477
03:06:22,440 --> 03:06:28,640
Speaker 14: absolutely not. Yeah, okay, well we will we will learn

3478
03:06:28,720 --> 03:06:30,720
Speaker 14: what gab is after I take a break.

3479
03:06:30,720 --> 03:06:32,840
Speaker 3: I need to like walk around for a few minutes

3480
03:06:32,840 --> 03:06:34,320
Speaker 3: and just process that for a second.

3481
03:06:34,480 --> 03:06:37,840
Speaker 14: You guys, yea, here's here's some ads. I'm just I'm

3482
03:06:37,879 --> 03:06:40,080
Speaker 14: just going to process that for for for a while.

3483
03:06:51,080 --> 03:06:57,000
Speaker 14: All Right, we are back, Molly. I hope that a

3484
03:06:57,040 --> 03:06:58,640
Speaker 14: lot of a lot of our listeners don't know what

3485
03:06:58,720 --> 03:07:03,840
Speaker 14: gap is they should on there, but that means that

3486
03:07:03,920 --> 03:07:07,120
Speaker 14: you have to explain what gab is, which isn't that hard.

3487
03:07:07,240 --> 03:07:08,560
Speaker 3: It's just kind of annoying.

3488
03:07:08,879 --> 03:07:12,480
Speaker 8: It's just sort of like a less functional Facebook for Nazis.

3489
03:07:12,840 --> 03:07:16,480
Speaker 14: Well, I think originally it was Twitter for Nazis, but

3490
03:07:16,560 --> 03:07:19,240
Speaker 14: now Twitter is Twitter for Nazis, but it.

3491
03:07:19,160 --> 03:07:21,160
Speaker 8: Has more of a sort of Facebook interface.

3492
03:07:21,240 --> 03:07:24,120
Speaker 14: To me, oh, I always I always thought of it

3493
03:07:24,120 --> 03:07:26,800
Speaker 14: as having a way more of like an of like

3494
03:07:26,840 --> 03:07:28,000
Speaker 14: an older Twitter uter face.

3495
03:07:28,080 --> 03:07:31,560
Speaker 8: Yet because it has it has like groups and a marketplace,

3496
03:07:31,800 --> 03:07:32,280
Speaker 8: like it.

3497
03:07:32,240 --> 03:07:34,440
Speaker 14: Does have groups of market But I think it started

3498
03:07:34,480 --> 03:07:38,480
Speaker 14: as a Twitter clone that started to a Facebook features

3499
03:07:38,879 --> 03:07:40,119
Speaker 14: that's mostly to like.

3500
03:07:40,080 --> 03:07:42,520
Speaker 8: Sort of like the evolutionary thing where everything turns into

3501
03:07:42,520 --> 03:07:45,040
Speaker 8: crabs boomers turn everything into Facebook.

3502
03:07:45,760 --> 03:07:49,960
Speaker 14: Yes, yes, exactly. It is the Facebook evocation of all

3503
03:07:50,000 --> 03:07:53,040
Speaker 14: social media. I think those changes were made to like

3504
03:07:53,600 --> 03:07:57,440
Speaker 14: to support more like a collaboration between users, because they

3505
03:07:57,440 --> 03:07:58,880
Speaker 14: wanted it to be like a place for Nazis could

3506
03:07:58,879 --> 03:08:01,720
Speaker 14: like also organize. But yeah, it very much started in

3507
03:08:01,760 --> 03:08:05,039
Speaker 14: like what year it was, like twenty eighteen ish, I want.

3508
03:08:04,840 --> 03:08:07,000
Speaker 3: To say twenty sixteen.

3509
03:08:07,080 --> 03:08:09,680
Speaker 8: Oh, I could pull the incorporation documents, but I think

3510
03:08:09,840 --> 03:08:11,280
Speaker 8: I think it's a little older than that.

3511
03:08:11,360 --> 03:08:14,800
Speaker 3: But it wasn't popular until I didn't get a gab

3512
03:08:14,840 --> 03:08:16,200
Speaker 3: account until twenty eighteen.

3513
03:08:16,400 --> 03:08:19,039
Speaker 8: It was in the news a lot on twenty eighteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

3514
03:08:19,240 --> 03:08:21,720
Speaker 8: mass shooters were using it and then their accounts were

3515
03:08:21,720 --> 03:08:24,240
Speaker 8: in the court documents. But it was already, you know,

3516
03:08:24,640 --> 03:08:25,959
Speaker 8: popular among certain sets.

3517
03:08:26,280 --> 03:08:26,440
Speaker 4: It was.

3518
03:08:26,640 --> 03:08:29,640
Speaker 3: It was certainly around for a while. Their logo is

3519
03:08:29,680 --> 03:08:30,200
Speaker 3: a frog.

3520
03:08:30,280 --> 03:08:33,200
Speaker 14: I'm sure there's nothing I'm sure that's completely normal, but yeah,

3521
03:08:33,400 --> 03:08:37,680
Speaker 14: it started off as just a social media app for Nazis,

3522
03:08:38,200 --> 03:08:40,920
Speaker 14: almost exclusively used by white supremacists.

3523
03:08:41,160 --> 03:08:44,119
Speaker 3: It's a free speech platform. It is a free speech platform.

3524
03:08:44,320 --> 03:08:47,640
Speaker 14: It was kind of it was, I like Parlor came

3525
03:08:47,680 --> 03:08:49,600
Speaker 14: a few years later, which was more like a maga

3526
03:08:50,000 --> 03:08:53,520
Speaker 14: ish version, like Gab was for like actual Nazis, right,

3527
03:08:53,640 --> 03:08:54,920
Speaker 14: Whereas Parlor you could.

3528
03:08:54,680 --> 03:08:57,599
Speaker 3: Find like you know, like like anyone.

3529
03:08:57,240 --> 03:09:01,280
Speaker 14: From like mega people, conservative politicians, you could you found

3530
03:09:01,320 --> 03:09:04,080
Speaker 14: a lot of like Proud Boy chapters. But Gab was like, no,

3531
03:09:04,120 --> 03:09:06,480
Speaker 14: you were like explicitly white supremacists.

3532
03:09:06,800 --> 03:09:08,960
Speaker 8: There's not a lot of plausible deniability in a GAB

3533
03:09:08,959 --> 03:09:11,240
Speaker 8: account the way there was maybe with Parlor a little bit.

3534
03:09:11,480 --> 03:09:13,440
Speaker 3: Now, a Gab is still a thing, I think.

3535
03:09:13,560 --> 03:09:17,880
Speaker 14: Uh, I mostly use it to watch the GDL, who

3536
03:09:17,760 --> 03:09:21,640
Speaker 14: posts a lot on GAB. But I think a lot

3537
03:09:21,640 --> 03:09:24,400
Speaker 14: of unfortunately, a whole bunch of people who were on

3538
03:09:24,440 --> 03:09:26,760
Speaker 14: gab are just now back on actual Twitter.

3539
03:09:26,840 --> 03:09:27,400
Speaker 3: Or in prison.

3540
03:09:28,400 --> 03:09:32,879
Speaker 14: And you know, some would say that those two things

3541
03:09:32,879 --> 03:09:34,879
Speaker 14: and a lot of gob which is not actually true

3542
03:09:34,879 --> 03:09:36,320
Speaker 14: because prison is way worth the same.

3543
03:09:36,400 --> 03:09:38,760
Speaker 8: The same posts kind of got them to both places,

3544
03:09:38,800 --> 03:09:39,320
Speaker 8: just different.

3545
03:09:40,000 --> 03:09:43,920
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, anyway, so okay, but that's gap.

3546
03:09:44,920 --> 03:09:47,560
Speaker 14: I did not know that a future of GAB could

3547
03:09:47,640 --> 03:09:50,560
Speaker 14: be serving some could be serving someone lawsuit papers. That

3548
03:09:50,640 --> 03:09:51,640
Speaker 14: is something I did not know.

3549
03:09:52,160 --> 03:09:54,600
Speaker 8: Well, it turns out you can't attach a PDF to

3550
03:09:54,640 --> 03:09:56,879
Speaker 8: a gab DM, so we could run into some trouble.

3551
03:09:56,959 --> 03:09:58,840
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is so dumb.

3552
03:09:59,760 --> 03:10:02,400
Speaker 8: So Charles Morrell's lawyers were given permission to serve Patriot

3553
03:10:02,400 --> 03:10:05,360
Speaker 8: Front and Thomas Rousseau via several online means. Right, so

3554
03:10:05,440 --> 03:10:08,400
Speaker 8: in this motion for this this permission for alternate service,

3555
03:10:08,600 --> 03:10:11,960
Speaker 8: they identified two email addresses and social media accounts regularly

3556
03:10:12,040 --> 03:10:15,680
Speaker 8: used by the group on Telegram, Odyssey, Bitshoot and GAB.

3557
03:10:15,800 --> 03:10:18,440
Speaker 14: I mean, I certainly would have gone for Telegram Odyssey

3558
03:10:18,480 --> 03:10:21,760
Speaker 14: and bit shoot are like YouTube and twitch clones for nazis.

3559
03:10:22,200 --> 03:10:26,080
Speaker 14: In case the listener is curious, don't go there. Don't

3560
03:10:26,160 --> 03:10:27,840
Speaker 14: not worry, do not go there.

3561
03:10:28,080 --> 03:10:32,240
Speaker 3: My god, I I have been on there way too

3562
03:10:32,320 --> 03:10:34,720
Speaker 3: much this week, and I have seen some of the worst.

3563
03:10:34,800 --> 03:10:39,720
Speaker 8: Yet it's not good on there. No, it's a process server, right.

3564
03:10:39,760 --> 03:10:43,160
Speaker 8: This This person who normally just like waits outside your

3565
03:10:43,200 --> 03:10:46,119
Speaker 8: work to serve you with papers is like now on gab.

3566
03:10:46,240 --> 03:10:46,400
Speaker 4: Right.

3567
03:10:46,440 --> 03:10:49,480
Speaker 8: So the process server contacted all of the identified accounts.

3568
03:10:49,760 --> 03:10:51,080
Speaker 8: And so when I was researching this, you know, I

3569
03:10:51,080 --> 03:10:52,800
Speaker 8: was trying to get an idea of how common this is,

3570
03:10:52,879 --> 03:10:54,920
Speaker 8: what the usual means are, And so I was looking

3571
03:10:54,959 --> 03:10:57,400
Speaker 8: through the cited case law and the motion, and one

3572
03:10:57,400 --> 03:10:59,680
Speaker 8: of the cases they cited kind of caught my eye.

3573
03:11:00,160 --> 03:11:02,480
Speaker 8: It's havelish v bin Laden.

3574
03:11:03,000 --> 03:11:08,039
Speaker 14: Oh him, I that name sounds familiar. Was was he

3575
03:11:08,120 --> 03:11:12,359
Speaker 14: the one that did that thing around like twenty twenty.

3576
03:11:12,080 --> 03:11:14,440
Speaker 3: Three ish years ago? Was it born then? How old

3577
03:11:14,560 --> 03:11:18,040
Speaker 3: I was? I was not? Oh no, I was kidding Jesus.

3578
03:11:18,120 --> 03:11:20,959
Speaker 3: I thought I was just ribbing you. Oh my god.

3579
03:11:21,120 --> 03:11:24,039
Speaker 14: Unfortunately, Yeah, Well, it is that bin Laden, right, it is.

3580
03:11:24,320 --> 03:11:26,080
Speaker 14: It is the It is the guy, Okay.

3581
03:11:25,800 --> 03:11:27,800
Speaker 8: It's the one, the one you're thinking of. So that's

3582
03:11:27,800 --> 03:11:29,760
Speaker 8: a lawsuit that was brought by families of people who

3583
03:11:29,800 --> 03:11:32,440
Speaker 8: died in nine to eleven. So last year a federal

3584
03:11:32,520 --> 03:11:34,800
Speaker 8: judge in New York gave those plaintiffs permission to serve

3585
03:11:34,879 --> 03:11:40,560
Speaker 8: legal notice to the Taliban via Twitter DM like the Taliban.

3586
03:11:41,160 --> 03:11:42,840
Speaker 3: What a time to be alive? What a time to

3587
03:11:42,879 --> 03:11:43,279
Speaker 3: be alive?

3588
03:11:43,400 --> 03:11:43,600
Speaker 7: Yeah?

3589
03:11:43,600 --> 03:11:47,959
Speaker 14: I mean yes, I the Taliban Twitter account is certainly fascinating.

3590
03:11:48,400 --> 03:11:51,160
Speaker 14: They're they're trying, they're trying to hold the Taliban responsible

3591
03:11:51,160 --> 03:11:51,760
Speaker 14: for nine to eleven.

3592
03:11:51,840 --> 03:11:52,280
Speaker 10: Huh.

3593
03:11:52,480 --> 03:11:54,080
Speaker 8: I don want to get like deep into the weeds about

3594
03:11:54,080 --> 03:11:57,280
Speaker 8: this particular case, but there's something seized. So like judgments

3595
03:11:57,320 --> 03:11:59,360
Speaker 8: have been awarded, there are seized funds sitting somewhere in

3596
03:11:59,360 --> 03:12:02,039
Speaker 8: the released they want they want this money, right, and

3597
03:12:02,040 --> 03:12:03,800
Speaker 8: so they needed to serve notice to the Taliban that

3598
03:12:03,800 --> 03:12:04,560
Speaker 8: they want this money.

3599
03:12:04,800 --> 03:12:06,640
Speaker 3: And so as wild as that sounds.

3600
03:12:06,360 --> 03:12:09,119
Speaker 8: There's actually a lot of similarities in the underlying legal

3601
03:12:09,160 --> 03:12:11,240
Speaker 8: logic here. So in both of these cases, the court

3602
03:12:11,280 --> 03:12:13,400
Speaker 8: is pretty specific that they're not just saying like, yeah,

3603
03:12:13,520 --> 03:12:15,400
Speaker 8: just like DM whoever, and it's good enough.

3604
03:12:15,480 --> 03:12:15,680
Speaker 9: Right.

3605
03:12:16,160 --> 03:12:18,440
Speaker 8: So in both of these cases, the account identified as

3606
03:12:18,640 --> 03:12:21,440
Speaker 8: being appropriate for service is pretty clear that it belongs

3607
03:12:21,440 --> 03:12:23,560
Speaker 8: to the person who's supposed to be served, and that

3608
03:12:23,560 --> 03:12:27,240
Speaker 8: that particular account has been used to make statements that

3609
03:12:27,320 --> 03:12:30,560
Speaker 8: indicate the individual already knows about the lawsuit. So this

3610
03:12:30,680 --> 03:12:34,160
Speaker 8: DMS the service by ADMA. It's going to be a surprise, right,

3611
03:12:34,240 --> 03:12:35,800
Speaker 8: this isn't going to be the first time you're hearing

3612
03:12:35,800 --> 03:12:39,080
Speaker 8: about this, Like the court knows that you know, okay,

3613
03:12:39,120 --> 03:12:40,920
Speaker 8: which I just need to see the red receipt that

3614
03:12:41,000 --> 03:12:41,280
Speaker 8: you know.

3615
03:12:41,640 --> 03:12:42,480
Speaker 3: Uha, got it.

3616
03:12:44,879 --> 03:12:46,640
Speaker 8: So in the case of the Taliban, the court notes

3617
03:12:46,640 --> 03:12:49,800
Speaker 8: that the accounts had previously published press releases related to

3618
03:12:49,959 --> 03:12:52,200
Speaker 8: the funds at issue in the underlying litigation. So it's

3619
03:12:52,240 --> 03:12:57,199
Speaker 8: like they they're posting about it. They know they're certainly

3620
03:12:57,280 --> 03:13:01,440
Speaker 8: posting the talent. The Taliban is posting about the funds, okay.

3621
03:13:02,040 --> 03:13:04,760
Speaker 8: So in this case it's Russeau's bravado biting him in

3622
03:13:04,800 --> 03:13:05,840
Speaker 8: the ass, right, and he.

3623
03:13:06,040 --> 03:13:08,240
Speaker 3: Loves and he loves posting my God.

3624
03:13:08,680 --> 03:13:10,760
Speaker 8: And the judge specifically refers to the fact that they

3625
03:13:10,800 --> 03:13:13,520
Speaker 8: posted the video of the incident the day the suit

3626
03:13:13,640 --> 03:13:15,640
Speaker 8: was filed, which indicates actual knowledge.

3627
03:13:15,760 --> 03:13:19,320
Speaker 14: Yes, which is also a very interesting legal move on

3628
03:13:19,400 --> 03:13:21,000
Speaker 14: the part of Russo.

3629
03:13:21,720 --> 03:13:23,960
Speaker 8: Like the judge is reading your posts and he doesn't

3630
03:13:23,959 --> 03:13:24,560
Speaker 8: think they're good.

3631
03:13:25,360 --> 03:13:26,320
Speaker 3: Oh my god.

3632
03:13:26,959 --> 03:13:29,680
Speaker 14: Uh, nothing more scary than having to read out your

3633
03:13:29,720 --> 03:13:31,240
Speaker 14: posts to a federal judge.

3634
03:13:31,320 --> 03:13:33,760
Speaker 8: Jesus Christ post every day like a judge is going

3635
03:13:33,800 --> 03:13:37,680
Speaker 8: to read them over your shoulder, right, Yes, So they're

3636
03:13:37,680 --> 03:13:40,120
Speaker 8: just like randomly and for totally unrelated reasons, posting this

3637
03:13:40,200 --> 03:13:42,400
Speaker 8: thirteen month old video the day of the lawsuit gets filed.

3638
03:13:42,400 --> 03:13:45,760
Speaker 3: The judgeesn't buy that fast. Again, a fascinating legal move.

3639
03:13:47,440 --> 03:13:49,160
Speaker 8: And so back to the Richmond case, right, we're still

3640
03:13:49,160 --> 03:13:51,880
Speaker 8: talking about service. And so the Richmond Keys, because it

3641
03:13:51,920 --> 03:13:54,840
Speaker 8: was filed first, maybe they weren't expecting to get sued.

3642
03:13:55,280 --> 03:13:57,680
Speaker 8: And because more of those plaintiffs were actually identified by

3643
03:13:57,720 --> 03:14:00,840
Speaker 8: anti fascist researchers, they actually had managed to serve most

3644
03:14:00,840 --> 03:14:03,640
Speaker 8: of their defendants. They found Thomas Dale, Nathan Noyce, aident Tradinnick,

3645
03:14:03,640 --> 03:14:07,039
Speaker 8: and Daniel Cherecci at their homes. A private investigator tracks

3646
03:14:07,120 --> 03:14:09,720
Speaker 8: Jacob Brown down hiding at a home owned by his

3647
03:14:09,800 --> 03:14:12,480
Speaker 8: mother in upstate New York. William Ring was.

3648
03:14:12,480 --> 03:14:17,000
Speaker 3: Actually sorry, god, what a bunch of losers.

3649
03:14:18,320 --> 03:14:20,760
Speaker 8: But William Ring was actually the easiest defendant to find.

3650
03:14:21,320 --> 03:14:24,880
Speaker 8: His papers were actually handed to someone to give to him.

3651
03:14:25,000 --> 03:14:27,360
Speaker 8: But this person was authorized to receive those papers because

3652
03:14:27,400 --> 03:14:30,160
Speaker 8: they were a corrections officer at the Fayette County Prison

3653
03:14:30,160 --> 03:14:34,879
Speaker 8: in Pennsylvania. Ah Ring was a guest up there serving

3654
03:14:34,920 --> 03:14:37,039
Speaker 8: a sentence for beating a man over the head with

3655
03:14:37,120 --> 03:14:38,560
Speaker 8: a baseball bat wrapped.

3656
03:14:38,240 --> 03:14:39,000
Speaker 3: In barbed wire.

3657
03:14:39,640 --> 03:14:40,880
Speaker 10: Hmm, curious.

3658
03:14:41,800 --> 03:14:44,879
Speaker 8: It was an altercation over refrigerator. It's very unclear.

3659
03:14:45,000 --> 03:14:46,000
Speaker 3: Oh, that's so sad.

3660
03:14:46,160 --> 03:14:49,000
Speaker 14: I thought it was gonna be like some horrible racist assault,

3661
03:14:49,080 --> 03:14:51,160
Speaker 14: and there could be an element of racism in this.

3662
03:14:51,280 --> 03:14:52,240
Speaker 3: I'm not familiar with the case.

3663
03:14:52,320 --> 03:14:55,080
Speaker 8: No, don't worry, Garrison. He was there for a second

3664
03:14:55,080 --> 03:14:58,760
Speaker 8: defense that occurred around the same time, but separately separate counties,

3665
03:14:58,800 --> 03:15:02,240
Speaker 8: even where he punched a child in the face after

3666
03:15:02,320 --> 03:15:04,279
Speaker 8: telling her to go back to Mexico.

3667
03:15:04,480 --> 03:15:07,440
Speaker 14: Okay, there, we see that. That is what I That's

3668
03:15:07,440 --> 03:15:08,280
Speaker 14: what I was expecting.

3669
03:15:08,320 --> 03:15:09,879
Speaker 3: All right, Yeah, that sounds about right.

3670
03:15:10,520 --> 03:15:10,680
Speaker 4: Man.

3671
03:15:10,920 --> 03:15:14,080
Speaker 14: It does suck that sending Nazis to prison also has

3672
03:15:14,160 --> 03:15:16,400
Speaker 14: so many negative consequences.

3673
03:15:16,760 --> 03:15:17,480
Speaker 3: To fix the.

3674
03:15:17,360 --> 03:15:20,200
Speaker 14: Furthering of the White Premaces project is really reliant on

3675
03:15:20,240 --> 03:15:22,640
Speaker 14: there being Nazis in prison, and it sucks that that

3676
03:15:22,760 --> 03:15:25,520
Speaker 14: is such an organizational hub of them, because these people

3677
03:15:25,560 --> 03:15:27,160
Speaker 14: should not be around other people.

3678
03:15:27,840 --> 03:15:29,680
Speaker 3: Ah man, Yeah, just.

3679
03:15:29,640 --> 03:15:32,040
Speaker 8: As an interesting assidne In both of those criminal cases.

3680
03:15:32,080 --> 03:15:34,879
Speaker 8: He hired a guy I've seen before. Very interesting. His

3681
03:15:34,959 --> 03:15:37,200
Speaker 8: name is Josh Smith. He was the lawyer that Matt

3682
03:15:37,240 --> 03:15:40,400
Speaker 8: Heinbach hired to represent him in the sins vy Kesler

3683
03:15:40,400 --> 03:15:43,000
Speaker 8: case a few years ago. Man, he's interesting to see

3684
03:15:43,000 --> 03:15:43,800
Speaker 8: an old friend again.

3685
03:15:44,200 --> 03:15:47,400
Speaker 3: Man with the most real name, Josh Smith. Oh, it's

3686
03:15:47,480 --> 03:15:50,280
Speaker 3: because it's not his real name. That's well, there we go.

3687
03:15:51,040 --> 03:15:53,160
Speaker 8: He was he was born Daniel Nussbaum.

3688
03:15:53,959 --> 03:15:58,800
Speaker 3: Of course, of course he was. I I clocked that immediately. Wow. Good,

3689
03:15:59,000 --> 03:15:59,480
Speaker 3: good for me.

3690
03:15:59,680 --> 03:16:02,840
Speaker 8: Yea, he was raised Jewish. But now he's a Holocaust

3691
03:16:02,879 --> 03:16:03,640
Speaker 8: and I are, Oh what.

3692
03:16:03,680 --> 03:16:08,840
Speaker 3: This is so sad? Oh my god, he joined to

3693
03:16:09,000 --> 03:16:15,320
Speaker 3: not see gay. Yeah, what the fuck? Oh god, he's like,

3694
03:16:15,480 --> 03:16:19,560
Speaker 3: I have to pick a wider name. Josh Smith. Wow,

3695
03:16:20,040 --> 03:16:20,800
Speaker 3: what a loser.

3696
03:16:22,360 --> 03:16:25,720
Speaker 8: He's not a very good lawyer either. His perform his

3697
03:16:25,800 --> 03:16:28,199
Speaker 8: performance in the science case with some of the strangest

3698
03:16:28,240 --> 03:16:30,920
Speaker 8: courtroom behavior I've ever seen. Like the judge had to

3699
03:16:30,959 --> 03:16:33,480
Speaker 8: keep reminding him of like you can't like that's not

3700
03:16:33,560 --> 03:16:35,040
Speaker 8: the law, Like you can't just say stuff.

3701
03:16:35,400 --> 03:16:39,920
Speaker 3: I love a courtroom behavior being described as strange.

3702
03:16:40,120 --> 03:16:42,320
Speaker 8: Like when the judge has to repeatedly remind you, like

3703
03:16:42,840 --> 03:16:46,240
Speaker 8: how the law works, like how making motions works, like

3704
03:16:46,560 --> 03:16:50,320
Speaker 8: you can't just yell stuff. It was a rough trial

3705
03:16:50,360 --> 03:16:53,680
Speaker 8: for him. His client does oh millions of dollars.

3706
03:16:53,720 --> 03:16:55,400
Speaker 3: He's the reverse Saul Goodman.

3707
03:16:55,480 --> 03:17:03,040
Speaker 14: Oh my gosh, Jesus Christ.

3708
03:17:00,280 --> 03:17:02,880
Speaker 8: Having hired him for his criminal cases and is in prison.

3709
03:17:03,600 --> 03:17:05,720
Speaker 8: But he didn't hire him to represent him in this

3710
03:17:05,840 --> 03:17:09,840
Speaker 8: lawsuit because he didn't get a lawyer and he defaulted. Wow,

3711
03:17:09,920 --> 03:17:11,600
Speaker 8: And so he if you default on a case, it

3712
03:17:11,680 --> 03:17:14,120
Speaker 8: means you're not allowed to participate anymore. And so the

3713
03:17:14,160 --> 03:17:16,400
Speaker 8: case is going to keep going and maybe you get

3714
03:17:16,400 --> 03:17:19,040
Speaker 8: found liable, but like you don't get to participate anymore.

3715
03:17:19,080 --> 03:17:21,400
Speaker 8: So when it's over, if you're liable, like that's kind

3716
03:17:21,400 --> 03:17:21,640
Speaker 8: of fun.

3717
03:17:21,920 --> 03:17:24,760
Speaker 3: Fuck you, huh.

3718
03:17:24,800 --> 03:17:27,600
Speaker 8: And so Thomas Rousseau, Jacob Brown, and Patriot Front are

3719
03:17:27,640 --> 03:17:30,840
Speaker 8: also defaulted in that lawsuit. But the other guys, the

3720
03:17:30,959 --> 03:17:35,000
Speaker 8: other guys got a lawyer. They hired another guy we've

3721
03:17:35,040 --> 03:17:38,279
Speaker 8: seen before. His name is Glenn Allen. He's a Maryland

3722
03:17:38,280 --> 03:17:40,480
Speaker 8: based attorney who lost his job as counsel for the

3723
03:17:40,480 --> 03:17:43,360
Speaker 8: Baltimore Police Department after the SPLC identified him as a

3724
03:17:43,360 --> 03:17:47,040
Speaker 8: longtime member of the old school neo Nazi group National Alliance.

3725
03:17:47,400 --> 03:17:50,440
Speaker 14: Wow huh. Curious said that the police would have an

3726
03:17:50,480 --> 03:17:51,080
Speaker 14: Uzi lawyer.

3727
03:17:51,160 --> 03:17:54,080
Speaker 3: That's weird. Surely there's nothing to interrogate there.

3728
03:17:54,600 --> 03:17:56,560
Speaker 8: No, there's nothing weird going on in Baltimore at the

3729
03:17:56,560 --> 03:17:57,520
Speaker 8: police department at all.

3730
03:17:57,720 --> 03:18:00,920
Speaker 14: It is certainly funny that they just hired the old

3731
03:18:01,040 --> 03:18:03,800
Speaker 14: police Nazi lawyer for their Nazi club.

3732
03:18:05,400 --> 03:18:05,680
Speaker 3: Lawyer.

3733
03:18:05,920 --> 03:18:08,800
Speaker 14: Who's Who's someone who's been fighting from the police from

3734
03:18:08,800 --> 03:18:09,640
Speaker 14: being a Nazi.

3735
03:18:10,920 --> 03:18:13,120
Speaker 3: So he's been keeping pretty busy the last few years.

3736
03:18:13,160 --> 03:18:15,000
Speaker 8: He's spent a couple of years trying to sue the

3737
03:18:15,080 --> 03:18:18,640
Speaker 8: SPLC for saying true stuff about him being a member.

3738
03:18:18,480 --> 03:18:19,320
Speaker 3: Of National Alliance.

3739
03:18:19,360 --> 03:18:22,640
Speaker 8: It didn't work out, didn't work out, and he currently

3740
03:18:22,720 --> 03:18:26,000
Speaker 8: represents Warren Baylong in a doomed appeal of a previously

3741
03:18:26,040 --> 03:18:29,320
Speaker 8: dismiss lawsuit against the City of Charlottesville, who're failing to

3742
03:18:29,320 --> 03:18:31,280
Speaker 8: protect his right to have a good time at Unite

3743
03:18:31,280 --> 03:18:31,560
Speaker 8: the Right.

3744
03:18:33,760 --> 03:18:33,880
Speaker 7: Uh.

3745
03:18:35,160 --> 03:18:36,240
Speaker 3: Well, it's so.

3746
03:18:36,280 --> 03:18:38,160
Speaker 8: It's sort of I don't know, it's like feels a

3747
03:18:38,160 --> 03:18:40,680
Speaker 8: little slapstick, right, Like we're just like throwing characters in

3748
03:18:40,760 --> 03:18:44,240
Speaker 8: there we've got We've got the formerly Jewish Holocaust deny

3749
03:18:44,240 --> 03:18:46,199
Speaker 8: your Nazi. We've got the guy in prison for punching

3750
03:18:46,200 --> 03:18:48,840
Speaker 8: a little girl. Oh, the girl he told to go

3751
03:18:48,879 --> 03:18:51,840
Speaker 8: back to Mexico is Puerto Rican. I don't know that

3752
03:18:51,840 --> 03:18:54,560
Speaker 8: that matters to him. But she, she can't, she can't

3753
03:18:54,600 --> 03:18:55,560
Speaker 8: go back to Mexico.

3754
03:18:57,160 --> 03:19:01,599
Speaker 14: Not being racist. Challenge level impossible.

3755
03:19:02,720 --> 03:19:04,680
Speaker 3: We're just like throwing characters in here. We gotta know

3756
03:19:04,800 --> 03:19:09,480
Speaker 3: it is. It is very curtoonish. Yeah, but here we

3757
03:19:09,520 --> 03:19:10,119
Speaker 3: are at the end.

3758
03:19:10,280 --> 03:19:12,280
Speaker 8: Right, I've taken up a lot of your time to

3759
03:19:12,280 --> 03:19:13,880
Speaker 8: take care of us and telling you my little story.

3760
03:19:13,879 --> 03:19:18,120
Speaker 8: But what happens now? Right, there's three live cases. They're starting,

3761
03:19:18,320 --> 03:19:21,279
Speaker 8: they're starting to crawl forward now that the judges agreed

3762
03:19:21,320 --> 03:19:24,080
Speaker 8: that you can serve them. I'm so excited for discovery.

3763
03:19:24,280 --> 03:19:28,440
Speaker 8: My god, it's gonna be a treat. It's for me anyway,

3764
03:19:28,480 --> 03:19:32,480
Speaker 8: I'm getting the documents now. Obviously, the plaintiff's goal here

3765
03:19:32,640 --> 03:19:35,800
Speaker 8: is recovery of damages. That's what the law allows for.

3766
03:19:35,879 --> 03:19:38,400
Speaker 8: They can they sue because they want to recover damages,

3767
03:19:38,440 --> 03:19:40,720
Speaker 8: and I wish them well in them. I'm not like

3768
03:19:40,840 --> 03:19:43,080
Speaker 8: holding my breath. I think we can get some idea

3769
03:19:43,080 --> 03:19:44,800
Speaker 8: of what to expect here by looking back at the

3770
03:19:45,000 --> 03:19:47,520
Speaker 8: Signs by Kessler lawsuit against the United the Right organizers.

3771
03:19:47,520 --> 03:19:50,920
Speaker 8: It took four years to get to trial. Discovery was

3772
03:19:50,959 --> 03:19:54,080
Speaker 8: stymied by guys dropping their phones in toilets, So we're.

3773
03:19:54,000 --> 03:19:54,879
Speaker 3: Just showing up.

3774
03:19:55,240 --> 03:19:57,800
Speaker 14: I'm sure a lot of what these lawyers are doing

3775
03:19:58,120 --> 03:20:02,160
Speaker 14: are collaborating with defendants to make as a little come

3776
03:20:02,160 --> 03:20:05,360
Speaker 14: out and discovery as possible, because that is beyond the

3777
03:20:05,400 --> 03:20:07,680
Speaker 14: actual court case. The thing that could actually be most

3778
03:20:07,760 --> 03:20:11,480
Speaker 14: damaging to them is discovery like that, that is the

3779
03:20:11,520 --> 03:20:14,480
Speaker 14: actual thing. So I'm sure they're using all this extra

3780
03:20:14,560 --> 03:20:18,680
Speaker 14: time when they're avoiding recognizing the lawsuit to try to

3781
03:20:18,720 --> 03:20:21,800
Speaker 14: tidy up any dirty laundry they may have in a

3782
03:20:21,800 --> 03:20:23,080
Speaker 14: semi legal fashion.

3783
03:20:23,760 --> 03:20:26,600
Speaker 8: Well, they can't do that, and so I'm not going

3784
03:20:26,640 --> 03:20:30,680
Speaker 8: to accuse anyone of a crime. Right, destruction of evidence

3785
03:20:30,720 --> 03:20:33,680
Speaker 8: is not allowed. It's called spoliation. Right, So once you

3786
03:20:33,760 --> 03:20:36,640
Speaker 8: have actual knowledge that you're being sued, you are no

3787
03:20:36,720 --> 03:20:39,000
Speaker 8: longer allowed to destroy anything that might be discoverable.

3788
03:20:39,240 --> 03:20:41,400
Speaker 3: Do people still do it? Sure? They always?

3789
03:20:42,400 --> 03:20:42,560
Speaker 2: No?

3790
03:20:43,560 --> 03:20:45,640
Speaker 8: Am I implying that anyone is committing a crime at

3791
03:20:45,640 --> 03:20:50,879
Speaker 8: this juncture. Legally, no, we'll see. But you know, looking

3792
03:20:50,879 --> 03:20:53,840
Speaker 8: back at scigns, I don't think anybody's going to squeeze

3793
03:20:53,840 --> 03:20:55,360
Speaker 8: a few million out of any of those guys, right,

3794
03:20:55,400 --> 03:20:57,160
Speaker 8: Like they were found liable, but they're not going to

3795
03:20:57,240 --> 03:21:00,760
Speaker 8: pay right, And Thomas Rousseau started running his club for

3796
03:21:00,840 --> 03:21:03,280
Speaker 8: friendless boys right out of high school. He doesn't have

3797
03:21:03,280 --> 03:21:05,920
Speaker 8: a job, he doesn't have assets. He's not going to

3798
03:21:06,040 --> 03:21:09,600
Speaker 8: pay anybody any money. But what it can do is

3799
03:21:09,640 --> 03:21:12,520
Speaker 8: slow them down. They have to get lawyers, they have

3800
03:21:12,560 --> 03:21:15,840
Speaker 8: to show up in court, they have to participate in discovery.

3801
03:21:15,959 --> 03:21:19,040
Speaker 8: We've already seen plenty of leaked coms and internal planning documents,

3802
03:21:19,560 --> 03:21:22,520
Speaker 8: but now those documents and more will be entered into

3803
03:21:22,560 --> 03:21:23,200
Speaker 8: the court record.

3804
03:21:23,320 --> 03:21:23,480
Speaker 3: Right.

3805
03:21:23,560 --> 03:21:26,800
Speaker 8: So you know, researchers like you and I, we put

3806
03:21:26,800 --> 03:21:28,640
Speaker 8: out information all the time and people see it and

3807
03:21:28,680 --> 03:21:32,440
Speaker 8: it makes a difference. But when something comes in with

3808
03:21:32,480 --> 03:21:35,600
Speaker 8: sort of the impromatuur of the court's legitimacy, like once

3809
03:21:35,600 --> 03:21:37,640
Speaker 8: you put a bait's number on that bad boy, they

3810
03:21:37,680 --> 03:21:39,280
Speaker 8: could put it on the news, the real news where

3811
03:21:39,280 --> 03:21:40,039
Speaker 8: normal people see it.

3812
03:21:40,080 --> 03:21:45,760
Speaker 14: Right, yesh, your like niche, not your niche like no

3813
03:21:45,920 --> 03:21:48,600
Speaker 14: blogs the site that like twelve people check it.

3814
03:21:48,520 --> 03:21:51,520
Speaker 8: On right, So like your mom watching Matt Out is

3815
03:21:51,560 --> 03:21:54,360
Speaker 8: going to see this, where like she's not reading Unicorn Riot.

3816
03:21:54,680 --> 03:21:56,880
Speaker 8: So this will put this information in front of more people,

3817
03:21:57,320 --> 03:22:01,760
Speaker 8: will have more legitimacy. But I think the biggest impact

3818
03:22:02,120 --> 03:22:04,600
Speaker 8: this is going to have is on the willingness of

3819
03:22:04,720 --> 03:22:07,480
Speaker 8: potential members and current members to participate.

3820
03:22:07,560 --> 03:22:10,000
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, it makes things way more risky for people

3821
03:22:10,480 --> 03:22:12,320
Speaker 3: wanting to do this sort of stuff.

3822
03:22:12,160 --> 03:22:14,560
Speaker 8: Like, maybe you're gonna think twice about your group mandated

3823
03:22:14,640 --> 03:22:17,280
Speaker 8: racial intimidation now that you know you.

3824
03:22:17,320 --> 03:22:18,200
Speaker 3: Might have to pay for that.

3825
03:22:18,560 --> 03:22:21,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, maybe joining looks a little less appealing.

3826
03:22:22,600 --> 03:22:24,720
Speaker 8: You know, it's hard to be optimistic about relying on

3827
03:22:24,760 --> 03:22:27,760
Speaker 8: the courts to meaningfully undermine white supremacist organizing.

3828
03:22:27,959 --> 03:22:29,960
Speaker 3: Sure, but it's worth a shot to gum up the

3829
03:22:30,000 --> 03:22:31,240
Speaker 3: works with whatever tools you have.

3830
03:22:31,640 --> 03:22:35,920
Speaker 14: Absolutely, I may not believe in like the law system

3831
03:22:36,080 --> 03:22:39,920
Speaker 14: TM as this as this like universally good thing, or

3832
03:22:39,920 --> 03:22:41,959
Speaker 14: even like a like a like a valid thing, but

3833
03:22:42,040 --> 03:22:49,720
Speaker 14: I'm certainly willing to have it severely inconvenience my ontological enemies.

3834
03:22:50,240 --> 03:22:52,520
Speaker 3: Like is it the best solution?

3835
03:22:53,000 --> 03:22:53,120
Speaker 1: No?

3836
03:22:53,400 --> 03:22:56,440
Speaker 3: Is it a solution? Maybe not at all, But it's

3837
03:22:56,480 --> 03:22:57,000
Speaker 3: worth a shot.

3838
03:22:57,280 --> 03:22:59,680
Speaker 8: It'll be you know, I'm gonna enjoy reading the documents

3839
03:22:59,680 --> 03:23:00,600
Speaker 8: either way.

3840
03:23:00,640 --> 03:23:04,880
Speaker 14: Absolutely, No, that is. I am extremely intrigued to see

3841
03:23:04,879 --> 03:23:08,240
Speaker 14: what will come out uh in discovery, and I wish

3842
03:23:08,280 --> 03:23:14,520
Speaker 14: these people only the worst. So well, Mollie, that was

3843
03:23:14,560 --> 03:23:19,000
Speaker 14: that was fantastic. That was extremely informative. You know, I

3844
03:23:19,400 --> 03:23:21,720
Speaker 14: always think it's impossible to find new ways to laugh

3845
03:23:21,760 --> 03:23:24,200
Speaker 14: at Patriot Front, Yet here here we are.

3846
03:23:25,520 --> 03:23:28,120
Speaker 8: Imagine opening that DM. I wish they had record, they

3847
03:23:28,200 --> 03:23:29,840
Speaker 8: record everything. I wish they'd been recording that.

3848
03:23:30,120 --> 03:23:33,880
Speaker 14: God, that'd be funny. Yeah, imagine getting served via GAB.

3849
03:23:33,920 --> 03:23:37,480
Speaker 14: I would just get you know, I I shouldn't say

3850
03:23:37,480 --> 03:23:43,840
Speaker 14: that anyway. Well, where can people find you online, Molly?

3851
03:23:44,000 --> 03:23:45,920
Speaker 14: Besides on our show?

3852
03:23:45,959 --> 03:23:48,720
Speaker 3: Now, I know, I'm very excited to be here.

3853
03:23:49,040 --> 03:23:52,039
Speaker 8: You can find me on Twitter at Socialist dog mom

3854
03:23:52,040 --> 03:23:54,160
Speaker 8: my name I chose as a little joke before I

3855
03:23:54,240 --> 03:23:55,959
Speaker 8: realized it was going to be my job.

3856
03:23:56,360 --> 03:23:58,280
Speaker 3: That is. That is the same That is the same

3857
03:23:58,280 --> 03:24:01,039
Speaker 3: thing with my Twitter presence. So we are we are

3858
03:24:01,040 --> 03:24:02,080
Speaker 3: in the same boat there.

3859
03:24:04,160 --> 03:24:06,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, you mostly just find me on Twitter. You can

3860
03:24:06,280 --> 03:24:09,680
Speaker 8: find me on my my ghost newsletter. It's like substack,

3861
03:24:09,760 --> 03:24:12,520
Speaker 8: but there's less nazis there. It's called the Devil's advocates.

3862
03:24:12,520 --> 03:24:14,280
Speaker 8: There's a link to it on my Twitter I post

3863
03:24:14,320 --> 03:24:18,039
Speaker 8: about what happens when you take white supremacy to court.

3864
03:24:19,840 --> 03:24:22,920
Speaker 14: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Molly. We will we

3865
03:24:22,959 --> 03:24:26,400
Speaker 14: will talk again soon to learn about I'm sure even

3866
03:24:26,680 --> 03:24:30,080
Speaker 14: even new and more more ridiculous things that you have

3867
03:24:30,160 --> 03:24:33,360
Speaker 14: stumbled across by reading these documents. I am too adhd

3868
03:24:33,440 --> 03:24:33,840
Speaker 14: to look.

3869
03:24:33,720 --> 03:24:51,879
Speaker 3: At it only ever gets worse, Garrison, Welcome to the

3870
03:24:51,959 --> 03:24:55,680
Speaker 3: very special lunar New Year's episode of vikadap Here. I'm

3871
03:24:55,720 --> 03:24:58,879
Speaker 3: your host, Mia Wong, and today we're talking about China,

3872
03:24:59,160 --> 03:25:02,200
Speaker 3: and more specifically, we are talking about the Chinese state

3873
03:25:02,280 --> 03:25:05,680
Speaker 3: and the persistent question that haunts American national security experts

3874
03:25:05,680 --> 03:25:10,960
Speaker 3: and leftists on social media alike, is China maoist? Now,

3875
03:25:11,000 --> 03:25:13,560
Speaker 3: if you, gentle listener, are not embroiled in a kind

3876
03:25:13,560 --> 03:25:16,760
Speaker 3: of running turf war with American China watchers like I am,

3877
03:25:17,440 --> 03:25:20,680
Speaker 3: you may rightly be asking, wait, what people actually believe this?

3878
03:25:21,040 --> 03:25:25,320
Speaker 3: And the answer, unfortunately is yes, yes they do. And

3879
03:25:25,360 --> 03:25:29,280
Speaker 3: those people get to write in major media outlets. Here's

3880
03:25:29,320 --> 03:25:32,200
Speaker 3: the New York Times how she returned China to one

3881
03:25:32,240 --> 03:25:35,320
Speaker 3: man rule. For decades, China has built Guyard rails to

3882
03:25:35,320 --> 03:25:38,600
Speaker 3: prevent another Mao. Here's how Hijimping has dismantled them and

3883
03:25:38,640 --> 03:25:42,400
Speaker 3: created his own machinery of power. Here's also The New

3884
03:25:42,480 --> 03:25:44,520
Speaker 3: York Times. This one, I guess technically is from the

3885
03:25:44,560 --> 03:25:48,879
Speaker 3: opinion section. But Uh Xixiping is the second coming of

3886
03:25:48,920 --> 03:25:52,160
Speaker 3: Maosee Dung. Here's the Wall Street Journal. China wants to

3887
03:25:52,160 --> 03:25:55,280
Speaker 3: move ahead, but Sijiping is looking to the past. As

3888
03:25:55,400 --> 03:25:58,960
Speaker 3: China's leader embraces more elements of Maosee Dung's rule, It's

3889
03:25:58,959 --> 03:26:03,280
Speaker 3: people are confronting more uncertain future. Lest you think this

3890
03:26:03,360 --> 03:26:06,960
Speaker 3: is purely an American phenomena, here's Al Jazeera, which is

3891
03:26:07,000 --> 03:26:10,920
Speaker 3: funded by the government of Catter is Xijimping China's new

3892
03:26:11,000 --> 03:26:13,680
Speaker 3: Mao Ze Dung, which she casting himself as a twenty

3893
03:26:13,680 --> 03:26:19,680
Speaker 3: first century Mao. China risks arbitrary rule. Here's foreign policy

3894
03:26:20,240 --> 03:26:25,640
Speaker 3: the Maoist roots of She's economic dilemma. In contrast with Dang,

3895
03:26:25,760 --> 03:26:30,200
Speaker 3: she has embraced a distinctly Maoist socialism that emphasizes personal

3896
03:26:30,240 --> 03:26:33,800
Speaker 3: sacrifice for the collective good, HARKing back to the Cultural

3897
03:26:33,840 --> 03:26:38,119
Speaker 3: Revolution of the nineteen sixties and seventies. The British, of course,

3898
03:26:38,160 --> 03:26:42,360
Speaker 3: are also not immune to this Mao derangement syndrome. I

3899
03:26:42,360 --> 03:26:45,800
Speaker 3: guess I would call it Chi Jimping's pilgrimage to Red

3900
03:26:45,840 --> 03:26:52,720
Speaker 3: Mecca brings back the Mao factor. So you know, this

3901
03:26:52,400 --> 03:26:55,760
Speaker 3: is a very, very common sentiment. It's been a very

3902
03:26:55,760 --> 03:27:01,600
Speaker 3: common sentiment for most of the last dec I haven't

3903
03:27:01,640 --> 03:27:04,160
Speaker 3: even done some of the most common ones, like you,

3904
03:27:04,640 --> 03:27:08,480
Speaker 3: if you expand a little bit out from just Xijimping

3905
03:27:08,600 --> 03:27:10,440
Speaker 3: is the new Mao ones, you get a lot of

3906
03:27:10,480 --> 03:27:14,000
Speaker 3: like Xi Jimping is the most powerful leader since Mao,

3907
03:27:14,400 --> 03:27:18,200
Speaker 3: which is kind of true. And I think this is

3908
03:27:18,280 --> 03:27:22,000
Speaker 3: part of why this sort of strategy works, because people

3909
03:27:22,840 --> 03:27:27,640
Speaker 3: do not want to actually differentiate between different kinds of

3910
03:27:27,680 --> 03:27:33,040
Speaker 3: authoritarian systems. There are many, many different kinds of dictatorships,

3911
03:27:33,040 --> 03:27:36,959
Speaker 3: and people are just loath to actually look at the differences.

3912
03:27:37,520 --> 03:27:39,440
Speaker 3: And you see this. This is not just the sort

3913
03:27:39,480 --> 03:27:42,600
Speaker 3: of American media class thing. You see this in political

3914
03:27:42,680 --> 03:27:46,160
Speaker 3: science literature all the time. Political science literature, especially in

3915
03:27:46,200 --> 03:27:48,800
Speaker 3: the US, has this tendency to divide the entire world

3916
03:27:48,879 --> 03:27:52,800
Speaker 3: into this sort of neat classification of dictatorships and democracies.

3917
03:27:53,920 --> 03:27:55,880
Speaker 3: And as a product of this, I have had to

3918
03:27:55,920 --> 03:28:01,760
Speaker 3: read some truly truly appalling articles that were published in

3919
03:28:01,840 --> 03:28:05,760
Speaker 3: peer reviewed journals. On my absolute I don't know if

3920
03:28:05,800 --> 03:28:08,800
Speaker 3: favorite is the right term or the most cursed one

3921
03:28:08,800 --> 03:28:13,000
Speaker 3: that I ever saw was it was an article about

3922
03:28:13,040 --> 03:28:15,880
Speaker 3: like the read the quote unquote resource curse and this

3923
03:28:16,040 --> 03:28:19,680
Speaker 3: argument about whether like having a bunch of oil means

3924
03:28:19,720 --> 03:28:23,000
Speaker 3: that you were inherently gonna have an authoritarian government or whatever.

3925
03:28:23,560 --> 03:28:27,119
Speaker 3: So they have this chart that's supposed to be tracking

3926
03:28:27,360 --> 03:28:30,280
Speaker 3: like the quote unquote time to a democratic transition of

3927
03:28:30,320 --> 03:28:34,560
Speaker 3: a bunch of non democratic societies by like just how

3928
03:28:34,640 --> 03:28:39,119
Speaker 3: much how much natural resources they have. Now this this

3929
03:28:39,240 --> 03:28:44,120
Speaker 3: chart has in the same category Saudi Arabia, a theocratic monarchy,

3930
03:28:44,480 --> 03:28:48,959
Speaker 3: and also Hoaxayist Albania, a country whose political line was

3931
03:28:49,000 --> 03:28:52,520
Speaker 3: that Mao did it Mao hard enough. And these are

3932
03:28:52,560 --> 03:28:56,160
Speaker 3: just being treated neutraally as the same type of governments

3933
03:28:56,240 --> 03:29:01,600
Speaker 3: because it's not a representative democracy. North Korea is another

3934
03:29:01,600 --> 03:29:04,720
Speaker 3: good example of this. You see people in the US

3935
03:29:04,840 --> 03:29:08,039
Speaker 3: calling North Korea hereditary monarchy like all the time, and

3936
03:29:08,200 --> 03:29:12,320
Speaker 3: it just isn't. Leadership of the party state passes between

3937
03:29:12,360 --> 03:29:15,640
Speaker 3: members of a family. But that's not actually enough to

3938
03:29:15,720 --> 03:29:18,320
Speaker 3: make something a monarchy unless you're prepared to argue that, like,

3939
03:29:18,360 --> 03:29:20,520
Speaker 3: the US is a monarchy because we had two Bushes

3940
03:29:20,560 --> 03:29:24,200
Speaker 3: as president. Now on the grounds that that's extremely funny,

3941
03:29:24,280 --> 03:29:26,920
Speaker 3: I'm not wholly unsympathetic to that argument, but it's not.

3942
03:29:28,000 --> 03:29:30,280
Speaker 3: Calling the US a monarchy because of the two Bushes

3943
03:29:30,440 --> 03:29:33,640
Speaker 3: is not a very serious academic argument. It is just

3944
03:29:33,760 --> 03:29:37,039
Speaker 3: a joke. And that's I think, how we should be

3945
03:29:37,080 --> 03:29:40,760
Speaker 3: treating people, like people calling North Korea a monarchy because

3946
03:29:40,800 --> 03:29:44,720
Speaker 3: it's not a monarchy is not just there's a guy

3947
03:29:44,760 --> 03:29:47,199
Speaker 3: who's in charge and it passes to another person who's

3948
03:29:47,200 --> 03:29:49,800
Speaker 3: related to them. It's not just that there's someone who

3949
03:29:49,840 --> 03:29:52,240
Speaker 3: you could call a king. There is a whole political

3950
03:29:52,280 --> 03:29:54,440
Speaker 3: system beneath it, right, there's a whole network of like

3951
03:29:54,480 --> 03:29:57,840
Speaker 3: princes and courts and land titles and inheritances and who

3952
03:29:57,879 --> 03:30:01,160
Speaker 3: when who doesn't have royal blood, and there's there's you know,

3953
03:30:01,200 --> 03:30:04,400
Speaker 3: there's a whole you know, and the economic system of

3954
03:30:05,080 --> 03:30:08,160
Speaker 3: a monarchy as has changed over time. Right, monarchies are

3955
03:30:08,240 --> 03:30:12,000
Speaker 3: very old. You know, we now have like capitalist monarchies

3956
03:30:12,000 --> 03:30:15,320
Speaker 3: like the Saudis. You know, we've had feudal monarchies, We've

3957
03:30:15,320 --> 03:30:19,080
Speaker 3: had sort of pre feudal monarchies, but you can't simply

3958
03:30:19,200 --> 03:30:25,000
Speaker 3: reduce monarchy to one guy in charge. That is absolutely absurd,

3959
03:30:25,240 --> 03:30:27,600
Speaker 3: But people just do this all the time. Now, North

3960
03:30:27,680 --> 03:30:30,240
Speaker 3: Korea is organized along the lines of a party state,

3961
03:30:30,320 --> 03:30:32,400
Speaker 3: where this is, you know, a sort of shortening of

3962
03:30:32,440 --> 03:30:36,360
Speaker 3: one party state. Technically speaking, there are actually other parties

3963
03:30:36,400 --> 03:30:38,920
Speaker 3: in North Korea, and this is true of China as well,

3964
03:30:39,480 --> 03:30:44,320
Speaker 3: but they don't really do anything. And this is not

3965
03:30:44,400 --> 03:30:45,840
Speaker 3: the episode where I'm going to have to try to

3966
03:30:45,840 --> 03:30:48,000
Speaker 3: explain the difference between the United Front and the United

3967
03:30:48,040 --> 03:30:52,000
Speaker 3: Front Works Department. That's another time. But they are functionally

3968
03:30:52,040 --> 03:30:54,320
Speaker 3: one party states. There is one party that actually does

3969
03:30:54,360 --> 03:30:56,040
Speaker 3: the ruling, and then there's a couple of other parties

3970
03:30:56,040 --> 03:30:59,199
Speaker 3: that keep around for appearances, who might do consultative stuff.

3971
03:30:59,640 --> 03:31:03,800
Speaker 3: But even in terms, even knowing that something is a

3972
03:31:03,840 --> 03:31:07,720
Speaker 3: party state doesn't actually tell you a huge amount about

3973
03:31:07,840 --> 03:31:13,320
Speaker 3: how that system actually functions. And this is where we

3974
03:31:13,360 --> 03:31:16,000
Speaker 3: come to the core elements of today's episode. How does

3975
03:31:16,040 --> 03:31:18,520
Speaker 3: the modern Chinese state operate and how is it different

3976
03:31:18,560 --> 03:31:22,080
Speaker 3: from previous iterations of the Chinese state. So to answer

3977
03:31:22,080 --> 03:31:24,279
Speaker 3: this question, we need to start. We need to start

3978
03:31:24,480 --> 03:31:27,200
Speaker 3: with the origins of the party state itself and the

3979
03:31:27,240 --> 03:31:30,720
Speaker 3: party state really in the sense that we're dealing with

3980
03:31:30,920 --> 03:31:32,360
Speaker 3: is born with the Soviet Union. Well, I mean, I

3981
03:31:32,400 --> 03:31:34,400
Speaker 3: guess it technically creates the Soviet Union a little bit,

3982
03:31:34,520 --> 03:31:39,199
Speaker 3: but it's it's born it's bored of the October Revolution

3983
03:31:39,320 --> 03:31:43,280
Speaker 3: and the Bolshevik taking consolidation of power. On the other hand,

3984
03:31:44,720 --> 03:31:47,119
Speaker 3: you know, party states are not built in the image

3985
03:31:47,120 --> 03:31:49,879
Speaker 3: of Lenin. They're built in the image of Stalin. And

3986
03:31:50,760 --> 03:31:53,480
Speaker 3: the thing that makes you know, sort of like what

3987
03:31:53,600 --> 03:31:57,280
Speaker 3: the party states that come after it, what makes them

3988
03:31:57,640 --> 03:32:00,840
Speaker 3: function is the way that sort of Stalin consolidates power.

3989
03:32:00,840 --> 03:32:04,280
Speaker 3: And Stalin consolidates power by using the rules of the

3990
03:32:04,320 --> 03:32:08,000
Speaker 3: Bolshevik Party to maintain control over members of the state apparatus,

3991
03:32:08,000 --> 03:32:11,160
Speaker 3: even though technically speaking he doesn't he doesn't have like

3992
03:32:11,200 --> 03:32:13,000
Speaker 3: you know, he'd keep be doing these doesn't technically have

3993
03:32:13,040 --> 03:32:15,000
Speaker 3: the formal authority to do as a member of the government,

3994
03:32:15,000 --> 03:32:17,320
Speaker 3: but he has the authority to do as a member

3995
03:32:17,360 --> 03:32:19,520
Speaker 3: of the party. And this is how Stalin consolidates his

3996
03:32:19,600 --> 03:32:21,720
Speaker 3: power and sod walls out Trotsky et etc.

3997
03:32:21,920 --> 03:32:22,320
Speaker 6: Et cetera.

3998
03:32:24,000 --> 03:32:28,879
Speaker 3: However, Comma, this is where people make mistakes when when

3999
03:32:28,879 --> 03:32:32,800
Speaker 3: they're trying to sort of understand what Stalinism was, which

4000
03:32:32,840 --> 03:32:36,560
Speaker 3: is that they make this mistake of looking you know,

4001
03:32:36,600 --> 03:32:40,280
Speaker 3: of kind of projecting back the later Soviet Union on

4002
03:32:40,840 --> 03:32:45,039
Speaker 3: you know, onto sort of like nineteen thirty's Stalinism, and

4003
03:32:45,560 --> 03:32:48,440
Speaker 3: the mistake that they make is the assumption that Stalinism

4004
03:32:48,600 --> 03:32:52,240
Speaker 3: is purely a bureaucratic doctrine, right, It's purely about season

4005
03:32:52,280 --> 03:32:55,200
Speaker 3: control the bureaucracy and using a bureaucracy to consolidate power.

4006
03:32:55,720 --> 03:33:00,320
Speaker 3: And that is just not true. Part of Stalin's success

4007
03:33:00,840 --> 03:33:03,959
Speaker 3: and you know, as bleak as that like success is.

4008
03:33:04,040 --> 03:33:07,520
Speaker 3: Part of what Stalin does is mobilize masses of people

4009
03:33:07,680 --> 03:33:09,920
Speaker 3: against parts of the party and in parts of the

4010
03:33:09,959 --> 03:33:12,120
Speaker 3: state bureaucracy that oppose him, that you you know, did

4011
03:33:12,120 --> 03:33:14,920
Speaker 3: do things like denunciations to like you know, and to

4012
03:33:14,959 --> 03:33:19,840
Speaker 3: weaken their bureaucratic power. And this means that Stalinism is

4013
03:33:20,000 --> 03:33:22,320
Speaker 3: not a pure politics of state bureaucracy the way that

4014
03:33:22,360 --> 03:33:26,560
Speaker 3: sort of later Soviet governments are. It's a combination of

4015
03:33:26,640 --> 03:33:31,640
Speaker 3: bureaucratic power and also the direction of mass mobilization, of

4016
03:33:31,720 --> 03:33:34,560
Speaker 3: the mobilization of large numbers of people to go do

4017
03:33:34,680 --> 03:33:39,200
Speaker 3: a thing towards the end of consolidating power. This interplay

4018
03:33:39,360 --> 03:33:42,440
Speaker 3: the control of bureaucratic power checked by mass popular and

4019
03:33:42,440 --> 03:33:47,119
Speaker 3: mobilizations is the characteristic element of Stalinism. Both of these tools,

4020
03:33:47,200 --> 03:33:51,879
Speaker 3: both the bureaucratic apparatus and mass mobilization, are used to

4021
03:33:51,879 --> 03:33:57,000
Speaker 3: maintain Stalin's personal power. Now, Maoism, for all of its

4022
03:33:57,000 --> 03:33:59,959
Speaker 3: claims to be the direct ideological air of Stalin is,

4023
03:34:00,120 --> 03:34:03,920
Speaker 3: Maoism is Sallanism are not the same thing in sort

4024
03:34:03,959 --> 03:34:07,880
Speaker 3: of like Mao era or China. And you know, you

4025
03:34:08,000 --> 03:34:12,359
Speaker 3: can trace this towards from sort of like Mao's insurgency

4026
03:34:12,400 --> 03:34:14,200
Speaker 3: era through the time he's in power to the end

4027
03:34:14,200 --> 03:34:18,320
Speaker 3: of the seventies. During that period, China is, if anything,

4028
03:34:18,640 --> 03:34:22,280
Speaker 3: even more prone to mass popular and mobilization as a strategy.

4029
03:34:22,320 --> 03:34:26,959
Speaker 3: Some of this is ideological. Maoism is to a large

4030
03:34:27,000 --> 03:34:30,920
Speaker 3: extent a kind of internal critique of Stalinism that you know,

4031
03:34:31,000 --> 03:34:34,400
Speaker 3: I mean, like so people in like you could argue about,

4032
03:34:34,560 --> 03:34:38,120
Speaker 3: you know, how good were the intentions of the people

4033
03:34:38,280 --> 03:34:40,560
Speaker 3: who are in charge of the Chinese Communist Party in

4034
03:34:40,560 --> 03:34:44,199
Speaker 3: like the twenties and thirties, Right, But they're not They're

4035
03:34:44,200 --> 03:34:47,840
Speaker 3: not stupid, right, These people are smart. These people understand

4036
03:34:48,360 --> 03:34:50,560
Speaker 3: that there are a lot of problems with the Soviet system.

4037
03:34:50,600 --> 03:34:52,880
Speaker 3: These are people who watched a bunch of their comrades

4038
03:34:52,879 --> 03:34:56,440
Speaker 3: get murdered because the Soviets fucked up. So these are

4039
03:34:56,480 --> 03:35:00,240
Speaker 3: people who understand the threat of bureaucrat as a to

4040
03:35:00,320 --> 03:35:03,360
Speaker 3: a revolutionary movements and the formation the potential formation of

4041
03:35:03,360 --> 03:35:06,240
Speaker 3: a new ruling class composed of sort of like management

4042
03:35:06,240 --> 03:35:10,560
Speaker 3: and bureaucratic cadres. But on the other hand, because it's

4043
03:35:10,600 --> 03:35:13,200
Speaker 3: an internal critique of Stalinism and not like an external

4044
03:35:13,200 --> 03:35:17,040
Speaker 3: critique of Stalinism, Maoism is utterly unwilling to try to

4045
03:35:17,080 --> 03:35:20,640
Speaker 3: solve these problems by actually giving like workers or peasants,

4046
03:35:20,720 --> 03:35:24,600
Speaker 3: like any kind of autonomy or democratic control over anything,

4047
03:35:24,640 --> 03:35:31,360
Speaker 3: except for like the most trivial minutia of like shop

4048
03:35:31,400 --> 03:35:36,800
Speaker 3: floor bullshit. And the result of this is that you know,

4049
03:35:37,000 --> 03:35:40,200
Speaker 3: you can't defeat the bureaucracy with democracy, so what do

4050
03:35:40,200 --> 03:35:41,960
Speaker 3: you how do you actually deal with it? And the

4051
03:35:42,000 --> 03:35:46,680
Speaker 3: result is what's called campaign style mobilization. These are mass

4052
03:35:46,760 --> 03:35:51,440
Speaker 3: mobilizations of extraordinary large numbers of people to do it,

4053
03:35:51,560 --> 03:35:53,400
Speaker 3: you know, to to do a task right. There's a

4054
03:35:53,400 --> 03:35:54,879
Speaker 3: lot of different sort of things they try to do

4055
03:35:54,920 --> 03:35:58,760
Speaker 3: with this. Sometimes they're tried they're used for economic ends.

4056
03:35:58,760 --> 03:36:00,440
Speaker 3: This is like the Great Leap four, which is this

4057
03:36:00,600 --> 03:36:03,640
Speaker 3: mass mobilization of people to increase productive capacity. It is

4058
03:36:03,680 --> 03:36:07,600
Speaker 3: a fiasco. Now, part of this Auso was political, right,

4059
03:36:07,680 --> 03:36:10,680
Speaker 3: Partly this is MAO trying to use mass mobilization against

4060
03:36:10,720 --> 03:36:13,120
Speaker 3: the bureaucracy in a way reminiscent of Stalin, but at

4061
03:36:13,120 --> 03:36:16,640
Speaker 3: a much much larger scale. And the other you know

4062
03:36:16,959 --> 03:36:19,520
Speaker 3: part part of what's going on here is that the

4063
03:36:19,560 --> 03:36:22,320
Speaker 3: bureaucracy of the Soviet Union is much stronger than the

4064
03:36:22,320 --> 03:36:27,440
Speaker 3: bureaucracy of China, right, because you know, the Bolsheviks kind

4065
03:36:27,480 --> 03:36:30,760
Speaker 3: of have a state like bureaucracy sort of intact that

4066
03:36:30,760 --> 03:36:33,920
Speaker 3: they're able to sort of graft themselves onto China like

4067
03:36:34,240 --> 03:36:37,640
Speaker 3: doesn't have like a functioning government at all, Like there's

4068
03:36:37,640 --> 03:36:40,240
Speaker 3: no functioning central state in China when the Maoist eventually

4069
03:36:40,320 --> 03:36:43,920
Speaker 3: like knock off the Nationalists. So you know this this

4070
03:36:43,920 --> 03:36:46,920
Speaker 3: this always means that the level of bureaucratization is lower

4071
03:36:46,920 --> 03:36:51,240
Speaker 3: in China, but you know, it's still it's there's still

4072
03:36:51,280 --> 03:36:53,600
Speaker 3: that's still like the state building process is still one

4073
03:36:53,600 --> 03:36:57,080
Speaker 3: of the things that Maoists are trying to do. And

4074
03:36:57,120 --> 03:36:58,520
Speaker 3: this is you know, this is sort of what Mao

4075
03:36:58,560 --> 03:37:02,039
Speaker 3: is tending to check. But this doesn't work. The Culture

4076
03:37:02,080 --> 03:37:06,560
Speaker 3: Revolution ultimately fails, and part of its failure is that,

4077
03:37:06,680 --> 03:37:08,400
Speaker 3: you know, Okay, so in order in order to like

4078
03:37:09,720 --> 03:37:14,199
Speaker 3: stop the dread specter of like democratic election of factory

4079
03:37:14,240 --> 03:37:18,840
Speaker 3: councils and shit mao like cobbles together this coalition of

4080
03:37:18,879 --> 03:37:21,200
Speaker 3: soldiers like loyalist red Guard factions and some of the

4081
03:37:21,200 --> 03:37:23,480
Speaker 3: pre existing bureaucracy. And these people are these are people

4082
03:37:23,480 --> 03:37:26,200
Speaker 3: who end up running the country through the seventies, and

4083
03:37:26,520 --> 03:37:29,200
Speaker 3: that is just another bureaucracy. And through this whole period,

4084
03:37:29,280 --> 03:37:33,560
Speaker 3: China continues to get more and more bureaucratic. Now, this

4085
03:37:33,600 --> 03:37:35,760
Speaker 3: is the most cliche thing that you can possibly say,

4086
03:37:35,760 --> 03:37:38,199
Speaker 3: but unfortunately I do have to say it. The Culture

4087
03:37:38,240 --> 03:37:43,000
Speaker 3: Revolution had a massive impact on subsequent Chinese policy. Every

4088
03:37:43,080 --> 03:37:46,840
Speaker 3: Chinese leader from Danzhou Ping on, including Xiji Ping, and

4089
03:37:46,920 --> 03:37:49,480
Speaker 3: this is something that is not very well covered in

4090
03:37:49,520 --> 03:37:52,480
Speaker 3: the American press, but every single one of these people

4091
03:37:52,480 --> 03:37:55,120
Speaker 3: agrees that the Culture Revolution was a mistake. And you

4092
03:37:55,160 --> 03:37:59,680
Speaker 3: can see the results of this analysis in how the

4093
03:37:59,720 --> 03:38:03,879
Speaker 3: min modern Chinese state mobilizes resources. Now, do you know

4094
03:38:03,920 --> 03:38:08,360
Speaker 3: how you can mobilize resources. It's buying the products and

4095
03:38:08,400 --> 03:38:22,840
Speaker 3: services contained in these ads. We are back. I don't

4096
03:38:22,879 --> 03:38:24,360
Speaker 3: know why I'm saying we. It is kind of just

4097
03:38:24,520 --> 03:38:27,080
Speaker 3: me and you the listener, But I guess, I guess,

4098
03:38:27,080 --> 03:38:32,240
Speaker 3: I guess that's technically plural. So let's get into how

4099
03:38:32,320 --> 03:38:36,360
Speaker 3: the modern Chinese state is very, very different from the

4100
03:38:36,400 --> 03:38:38,600
Speaker 3: previous kind of Chinese state, right because, you know, like

4101
03:38:39,760 --> 03:38:42,560
Speaker 3: the Mao era, for everything that goes wrong with it, right,

4102
03:38:42,680 --> 03:38:45,200
Speaker 3: for all of the reality that is an absolute disaster,

4103
03:38:46,240 --> 03:38:48,240
Speaker 3: is based on in a lot of ways, what we

4104
03:38:48,280 --> 03:38:52,120
Speaker 3: would call grassroots style organizing. Right, It's based on getting

4105
03:38:52,200 --> 03:38:57,400
Speaker 3: a bunch of people to go out and do a thing. Now,

4106
03:38:58,200 --> 03:39:02,480
Speaker 3: the modern Chinese state doesn't do this in the same way.

4107
03:39:02,800 --> 03:39:04,920
Speaker 3: The closest thing that they have to sort of like

4108
03:39:05,000 --> 03:39:10,360
Speaker 3: Maoist mobilizations are you know, there is still a thing

4109
03:39:10,400 --> 03:39:14,200
Speaker 3: that's called a campaign stylen mobilization, but it's not the

4110
03:39:14,280 --> 03:39:18,480
Speaker 3: same thing at all as the Maoist system. So let's

4111
03:39:18,480 --> 03:39:21,200
Speaker 3: ask the question, what the fuck is campaign style mobilization?

4112
03:39:22,000 --> 03:39:24,480
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna go to the academic literature on this.

4113
03:39:25,040 --> 03:39:28,879
Speaker 3: A group of professors, writing for the journal Public Administration Review,

4114
03:39:30,040 --> 03:39:35,040
Speaker 3: in a very colorfully named article called campaign Style Enforcement

4115
03:39:35,080 --> 03:39:40,640
Speaker 3: and Regulatory Compliance describe it. Thus, following the literature, we

4116
03:39:40,760 --> 03:39:44,360
Speaker 3: define campaign style enforcement as a type of policy implementation

4117
03:39:44,480 --> 03:39:50,400
Speaker 3: involving extraordinary mobilization of administrative resources under political sponsorship. Now,

4118
03:39:50,920 --> 03:39:55,000
Speaker 3: this definition is very interesting because if you look at

4119
03:39:55,080 --> 03:39:58,440
Speaker 3: what is being mobilized here, right, it is not masses

4120
03:39:58,480 --> 03:40:01,439
Speaker 3: of people. You're not trying to do mass popular mobilizations.

4121
03:40:01,680 --> 03:40:05,360
Speaker 3: You're mobilizing administrative resources. And this is something that becomes

4122
03:40:05,480 --> 03:40:07,200
Speaker 3: very clear the more you look into the sort of

4123
03:40:07,280 --> 03:40:11,200
Speaker 3: literature here. I'm going to quote from a piece called

4124
03:40:11,240 --> 03:40:15,640
Speaker 3: Revised Blue Sky Fabrication in China by Yongdongshen and Anna

4125
03:40:15,800 --> 03:40:21,600
Speaker 3: l Ahlers during the Mao era. This is campaign style

4126
03:40:21,640 --> 03:40:26,880
Speaker 3: mobilizations aimed at nothing less than mobilizing society as a whole.

4127
03:40:27,560 --> 03:40:31,560
Speaker 3: While when they occur today, political campaigns are usually foremostly

4128
03:40:31,600 --> 03:40:35,120
Speaker 3: addressed at the state apparatus i e. Especially party and

4129
03:40:35,160 --> 03:40:39,520
Speaker 3: government organizations, at all levels of the political hierarchy, and

4130
03:40:39,640 --> 03:40:44,000
Speaker 3: ultimately at cadres in other words, the implementers of the

4131
03:40:44,000 --> 03:40:47,880
Speaker 3: policy goals at stake. Accordingly, Elizabeth Perry has called this

4132
03:40:47,920 --> 03:40:55,199
Speaker 3: transformation quote from mass campaigns to managed campaigns. Moreover, contemporary campaigns,

4133
03:40:55,360 --> 03:40:59,240
Speaker 3: or better campaign style politics mainly take the form of

4134
03:40:59,480 --> 03:41:03,840
Speaker 3: a disciplinary, supervisory and sanctioning campaigns such as anti crime

4135
03:41:03,879 --> 03:41:09,920
Speaker 3: campaigns or the recently reinforced corruption campaign or be regulatory

4136
03:41:10,040 --> 03:41:14,760
Speaker 3: enforcement or policy goal attainment acceleration campaigns. So Okay, that's

4137
03:41:14,840 --> 03:41:17,280
Speaker 3: kind of a lot, but I think I think it's

4138
03:41:17,360 --> 03:41:20,240
Speaker 3: worth actually, you know, taking this in a little bit

4139
03:41:20,280 --> 03:41:25,160
Speaker 3: of detail. That same article defines like the characteristics of

4140
03:41:25,160 --> 03:41:29,119
Speaker 3: what campaign style, a campaign stylen mobilization is. So they

4141
03:41:29,160 --> 03:41:32,640
Speaker 3: have a defined goal, they have political sponsorship, there's a

4142
03:41:32,720 --> 03:41:35,840
Speaker 3: high degree of urgency, there's a defined period of time,

4143
03:41:36,400 --> 03:41:41,560
Speaker 3: tightly coordinated operation, the pooling of extraordinary resources, and public involvement.

4144
03:41:42,360 --> 03:41:45,720
Speaker 3: So that article of the one about blue sky fabrication

4145
03:41:46,440 --> 03:41:50,480
Speaker 3: is studying the twenty sixteen G twenty meeting in Hangzhou

4146
03:41:51,320 --> 03:41:53,720
Speaker 3: where the government sets out to make sure that there

4147
03:41:53,800 --> 03:41:57,360
Speaker 3: is actually like a blue sky for the event. Now,

4148
03:41:57,520 --> 03:42:01,320
Speaker 3: this is a massive undertaking because Chinese air pollution is

4149
03:42:01,360 --> 03:42:05,560
Speaker 3: fucking atrocious. This is something that I might view another

4150
03:42:05,600 --> 03:42:08,440
Speaker 3: Fall episode about this at some point. Chinese air pollution

4151
03:42:08,640 --> 03:42:13,000
Speaker 3: is unbelievably bad. It kills unfathomable numbers of people every year.

4152
03:42:13,600 --> 03:42:15,800
Speaker 3: It's gotten a little bit better since I was last there,

4153
03:42:15,800 --> 03:42:17,840
Speaker 3: But like when I was last in Beijing, like I

4154
03:42:17,879 --> 03:42:20,640
Speaker 3: didn't fucking I only saw the sky one time in

4155
03:42:20,680 --> 03:42:22,959
Speaker 3: the time I was there, because and that was only

4156
03:42:22,959 --> 03:42:25,280
Speaker 3: because it rained. And so after it rain, the sky

4157
03:42:25,400 --> 03:42:28,039
Speaker 3: was blue for like a few hours in the small

4158
03:42:28,240 --> 03:42:31,400
Speaker 3: just like consumed it again. So in order to make

4159
03:42:31,440 --> 03:42:33,480
Speaker 3: sure that there was like a blue sky for pr

4160
03:42:33,560 --> 03:42:36,760
Speaker 3: purposes for this G twenty meeting, because China wanted to

4161
03:42:36,760 --> 03:42:41,879
Speaker 3: sort of show off, there was a massive, massive deployment

4162
03:42:41,959 --> 03:42:45,440
Speaker 3: of resources. And this becomes one of the sort of

4163
03:42:45,440 --> 03:42:49,560
Speaker 3: campaigns down mobilizations, and these mobilizians. You know, they may

4164
03:42:49,640 --> 03:42:54,040
Speaker 3: not be sort of MAOIs style mass mobilizations of like

4165
03:42:54,480 --> 03:42:57,119
Speaker 3: getting people to go do the thing, but they are

4166
03:42:57,240 --> 03:43:00,640
Speaker 3: massively intrusive. They include things like shuddering fact is moving

4167
03:43:00,800 --> 03:43:05,000
Speaker 3: millions of people, restricting like who can drive them what days, like,

4168
03:43:05,760 --> 03:43:10,039
Speaker 3: restricting whether or not you can like use like cooking

4169
03:43:10,080 --> 03:43:15,000
Speaker 3: stuff in your house. But Comma, we need to look

4170
03:43:15,080 --> 03:43:20,560
Speaker 3: at how these things actually happen. So the way that

4171
03:43:20,560 --> 03:43:24,760
Speaker 3: these campaigns start basically is for for the large scale ones,

4172
03:43:24,920 --> 03:43:30,640
Speaker 3: you have mobilization that flows basically down the lines of

4173
03:43:30,720 --> 03:43:33,280
Speaker 3: the state. Right, they start from the federal governments and

4174
03:43:33,280 --> 03:43:35,360
Speaker 3: then they go to local governments and regional governments and

4175
03:43:35,360 --> 03:43:39,120
Speaker 3: implementation you know, for sort of scientific stuff.

4176
03:43:39,160 --> 03:43:39,280
Speaker 4: Right.

4177
03:43:39,320 --> 03:43:40,920
Speaker 3: So if you look if for you know, going back

4178
03:43:40,959 --> 03:43:43,240
Speaker 3: to the sort of example of the G twenty for

4179
03:43:43,680 --> 03:43:47,199
Speaker 3: you know, in order to do the scientific coordination for it,

4180
03:43:47,280 --> 03:43:50,840
Speaker 3: you get a very very broad, sort of broad reaching

4181
03:43:51,200 --> 03:43:54,560
Speaker 3: like coalition or coordination between scientists at universities as well

4182
03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:57,120
Speaker 3: as at research institutes and government agencies, and you're pulling

4183
03:43:57,120 --> 03:44:00,360
Speaker 3: them all together in order to produce like, like I

4184
03:44:00,400 --> 03:44:04,920
Speaker 3: don't know, you're like air quality measures, right, And these

4185
03:44:04,959 --> 03:44:07,720
Speaker 3: efforts also can very rapidly fold in the governments of

4186
03:44:07,760 --> 03:44:11,360
Speaker 3: other provinces. So what does it actually mean in terms

4187
03:44:11,360 --> 03:44:14,240
Speaker 3: of how these mobilizations work. What it means is that

4188
03:44:15,080 --> 03:44:19,800
Speaker 3: mobilization is a way of moving around different state and

4189
03:44:19,879 --> 03:44:23,560
Speaker 3: sometimes just kind of pseudo nonstate actors like universities and

4190
03:44:23,640 --> 03:44:27,160
Speaker 3: research institutes. It's a way of moving those resources around

4191
03:44:27,200 --> 03:44:30,880
Speaker 3: in such a way that you can accomplish a thing. Now.

4192
03:44:31,560 --> 03:44:33,960
Speaker 3: One of the kind of defining characteristics of a lot

4193
03:44:33,959 --> 03:44:35,520
Speaker 3: of these campaigns, and not all of them, like the

4194
03:44:35,560 --> 03:44:38,800
Speaker 3: anti corruption campaigns obviously are sort of different, but a

4195
03:44:38,800 --> 03:44:43,160
Speaker 3: lot of these campaigns rely on scientific and technical mobilization.

4196
03:44:43,320 --> 03:44:45,840
Speaker 3: Both in the sense of what resources they're moving, right,

4197
03:44:45,879 --> 03:44:49,480
Speaker 3: you moving scientists around, but also in terms of public justification.

4198
03:44:49,560 --> 03:44:52,240
Speaker 3: And this is also something that's very different, Like there

4199
03:44:52,320 --> 03:44:55,160
Speaker 3: is ideological justification going on, but like in like a

4200
03:44:55,200 --> 03:44:59,920
Speaker 3: Maoist sort of like like a high culture revolution like

4201
03:45:00,040 --> 03:45:03,760
Speaker 3: period or even greatly forward period, you're mostly using sort

4202
03:45:03,800 --> 03:45:06,920
Speaker 3: of ideological like direct ideological motivation to get people to

4203
03:45:06,959 --> 03:45:11,560
Speaker 3: go do a thing. Here. It's very technical, it's very scientific,

4204
03:45:11,680 --> 03:45:15,879
Speaker 3: it's very technocratic. And one of the products of this,

4205
03:45:15,920 --> 03:45:19,240
Speaker 3: one of the products of sort of how technocratic everything

4206
03:45:19,360 --> 03:45:22,320
Speaker 3: is is that and this is something Shen and Ahlers

4207
03:45:22,320 --> 03:45:24,480
Speaker 3: are very clear about. There is like no there's no

4208
03:45:24,520 --> 03:45:28,119
Speaker 3: public comment here, right, Like the way these campaign mobilizations

4209
03:45:28,480 --> 03:45:30,720
Speaker 3: work is the state tells you what you are doing,

4210
03:45:30,760 --> 03:45:33,240
Speaker 3: and you are not telling them back like anything. Like

4211
03:45:33,280 --> 03:45:35,480
Speaker 3: you are not negotiating with them, you are not in

4212
03:45:35,520 --> 03:45:38,880
Speaker 3: a dialogue, you are not submitting comment. They are just

4213
03:45:38,959 --> 03:45:40,879
Speaker 3: telling you what to do. And this goes from like

4214
03:45:40,959 --> 03:45:43,600
Speaker 3: regular people all the way up to like corporations, right,

4215
03:45:43,680 --> 03:45:45,920
Speaker 3: Like even large corporations. A lot of times with these

4216
03:45:46,560 --> 03:45:49,680
Speaker 3: like campaign style things don't get a like negotiate a

4217
03:45:49,720 --> 03:45:53,240
Speaker 3: deal or whatever the fuck it it just sort of happens. Now.

4218
03:45:54,160 --> 03:45:56,600
Speaker 3: You may have noticed in the original one of the

4219
03:45:56,640 --> 03:45:58,760
Speaker 3: original descriptions, I was talking about one of the def

4220
03:45:58,959 --> 03:46:02,200
Speaker 3: things they have as the definition is public mobiles is

4221
03:46:02,280 --> 03:46:06,039
Speaker 3: mobilization of like the public. But we need to be

4222
03:46:06,240 --> 03:46:09,680
Speaker 3: clear about what that means so that it doesn't get

4223
03:46:09,720 --> 03:46:13,840
Speaker 3: confused with like maoism. So what do we say, there's

4224
03:46:13,879 --> 03:46:16,400
Speaker 3: mobilization of the public. It's stuff likely. So during the

4225
03:46:16,400 --> 03:46:20,080
Speaker 3: G twenty campaign, there were like they would the CCP

4226
03:46:20,160 --> 03:46:23,960
Speaker 3: would like have old people volunteer to like walk around

4227
03:46:23,959 --> 03:46:26,640
Speaker 3: their neighborhoods and like snatch on anyone who was like

4228
03:46:26,760 --> 03:46:29,680
Speaker 3: using their cooking stove. So like that's the kind of

4229
03:46:29,680 --> 03:46:32,840
Speaker 3: mobilization we're talking like. These these are not like these

4230
03:46:32,879 --> 03:46:35,800
Speaker 3: are not like Red Guard tribunals, like dragging people out

4231
03:46:35,840 --> 03:46:38,840
Speaker 3: of their houses. This is like a seventy year old's

4232
03:46:39,200 --> 03:46:42,320
Speaker 3: person incredibly nosy seventy year old going like, ha, this

4233
03:46:42,360 --> 03:46:45,240
Speaker 3: person using their cooking stove. You know how you can

4234
03:46:45,240 --> 03:46:47,800
Speaker 3: get a cooking stove that you can actually use? Uh,

4235
03:46:48,160 --> 03:46:50,120
Speaker 3: maybe these products and services I don't know if we're

4236
03:46:50,120 --> 03:46:52,320
Speaker 3: sponsored by cooking stoves, but you know we could be.

4237
03:46:52,800 --> 03:46:54,880
Speaker 3: There could there could be a cooking stove, product and

4238
03:46:54,920 --> 03:47:10,680
Speaker 3: service out there waiting for you and we're back. Now,

4239
03:47:11,120 --> 03:47:13,600
Speaker 3: we should also look more at some of the methods

4240
03:47:13,640 --> 03:47:16,800
Speaker 3: of how this stuff happens. Right, So one of the

4241
03:47:16,800 --> 03:47:18,600
Speaker 3: things that's happening is part of this campaign is part

4242
03:47:18,600 --> 03:47:20,320
Speaker 3: of the part of the plan to reduce pollution. Is

4243
03:47:20,320 --> 03:47:22,240
Speaker 3: they need the Chinese government wants to move a bunch

4244
03:47:22,280 --> 03:47:25,600
Speaker 3: of people out of out of the city right now,

4245
03:47:25,720 --> 03:47:28,240
Speaker 3: A Maoi style thing would just tell the people to

4246
03:47:28,240 --> 03:47:31,880
Speaker 3: fucking leave. The way that the way that the modern

4247
03:47:31,959 --> 03:47:35,160
Speaker 3: Chinese government does this is to send people like basically

4248
03:47:35,200 --> 03:47:39,600
Speaker 3: free travel vouchers. Shennon Ayler's report, the value of these

4249
03:47:39,680 --> 03:47:43,039
Speaker 3: vouchers is more than one point five billion dollars, So

4250
03:47:43,600 --> 03:47:46,880
Speaker 3: like that's dollars, right, that's that's like, so you know

4251
03:47:47,240 --> 03:47:49,480
Speaker 3: this is this is these are very expensive campaigns. But

4252
03:47:49,480 --> 03:47:52,640
Speaker 3: but you know this is the way that the Chinese

4253
03:47:52,680 --> 03:47:55,280
Speaker 3: state moves in a lot of these cases, right when

4254
03:47:55,280 --> 03:47:56,600
Speaker 3: they're trying to move when they need to move a

4255
03:47:56,600 --> 03:48:02,400
Speaker 3: bunch of people, they deploy vouchers. So some of these

4256
03:48:02,440 --> 03:48:06,039
Speaker 3: campaigns are using even more like technocratic means to get

4257
03:48:06,080 --> 03:48:08,960
Speaker 3: things done. So looking back at the article of campaign

4258
03:48:09,000 --> 03:48:12,440
Speaker 3: style enforcement and regulatory compliance, we find examples of what

4259
03:48:12,560 --> 03:48:19,800
Speaker 3: is technically campaign style mobilization. Okay, quote, for instance, the

4260
03:48:19,800 --> 03:48:23,800
Speaker 3: central government either waived the loan interest for corporate spending

4261
03:48:24,000 --> 03:48:28,600
Speaker 3: on basically these like desulfurization things to make industrial like

4262
03:48:28,720 --> 03:48:34,240
Speaker 3: exhaust not have sulfur in it, or cover these expenses

4263
03:48:34,360 --> 03:48:39,440
Speaker 3: using central environment central environmental funds. In addition, an innovative

4264
03:48:39,480 --> 03:48:45,880
Speaker 3: green electricity policy offered that point zero zero two three

4265
03:48:46,280 --> 03:48:51,800
Speaker 3: cent price premium per kilowatt hour to power plants that

4266
03:48:51,879 --> 03:48:54,680
Speaker 3: installed one of these systems. So this is like exactly

4267
03:48:54,720 --> 03:48:57,360
Speaker 3: the opposite of how a booist campaign would do this, right,

4268
03:48:57,520 --> 03:49:05,200
Speaker 3: Like they are these factory people are getting like price subsidies,

4269
03:49:05,960 --> 03:49:11,760
Speaker 3: and like they're waiving the interest on loans. Now, we've

4270
03:49:11,800 --> 03:49:14,400
Speaker 3: been focusing on campaign style mobilization because those are the

4271
03:49:14,400 --> 03:49:17,320
Speaker 3: most sort of extraordinary kinds of mobilization. But most policy

4272
03:49:17,440 --> 03:49:21,480
Speaker 3: isn't even implemented by campaign It's implemented by normal biaucritic processes.

4273
03:49:21,520 --> 03:49:23,720
Speaker 3: And this is even less booist than the sort of

4274
03:49:23,920 --> 03:49:30,000
Speaker 3: campaign stylen mobilizations. Now, most people, a lot of people

4275
03:49:30,040 --> 03:49:33,960
Speaker 3: who describe China as booist are describing their oppressive apparatus.

4276
03:49:34,240 --> 03:49:38,560
Speaker 3: But here they have things exactly backwards, right, Contrary to

4277
03:49:38,600 --> 03:49:41,720
Speaker 3: the government and socialist period, which was sort of governed

4278
03:49:41,760 --> 03:49:46,040
Speaker 3: by mass mobilization, the modern Chinese government is almost pathologically

4279
03:49:46,120 --> 03:49:49,440
Speaker 3: adverse to anything that even smells like mass popular mobilization.

4280
03:49:50,120 --> 03:49:52,600
Speaker 3: And this isn't to say that China doesn't have protests

4281
03:49:52,680 --> 03:49:57,040
Speaker 3: like it does. There are protests in China, but comma

4282
03:49:57,680 --> 03:50:01,600
Speaker 3: like a lot of these. You well, there are protests

4283
03:50:01,600 --> 03:50:05,880
Speaker 3: like there are like ecological like Nimbi protests. There are

4284
03:50:06,000 --> 03:50:08,840
Speaker 3: like real estate there's a lot of real estate protests,

4285
03:50:08,960 --> 03:50:10,640
Speaker 3: and some of those, some of these are allowed. There

4286
03:50:10,880 --> 03:50:13,200
Speaker 3: are protests, one of the very common forms of protests

4287
03:50:13,200 --> 03:50:18,520
Speaker 3: against not getting paid by your boss. But even attempting

4288
03:50:18,600 --> 03:50:20,600
Speaker 3: like and most of these protests aren't like you just

4289
03:50:20,600 --> 03:50:23,320
Speaker 3: aren't really anti government, right, Like they're not sort of

4290
03:50:23,400 --> 03:50:25,640
Speaker 3: like they're not calling for the downfall of the regime

4291
03:50:25,760 --> 03:50:28,160
Speaker 3: or whatever. They're like pissed off about a corrupt local government.

4292
03:50:29,600 --> 03:50:32,760
Speaker 3: But even attempting to documents, all of the protests that

4293
03:50:32,840 --> 03:50:36,040
Speaker 3: happened in China in a given year canon has landed

4294
03:50:36,040 --> 03:50:39,080
Speaker 3: people in prison. So you know, the state is not

4295
03:50:39,120 --> 03:50:41,360
Speaker 3: super happy about this. And if we look at what

4296
03:50:41,440 --> 03:50:44,240
Speaker 3: happened to mass protests in twenty twenty two. They were

4297
03:50:44,280 --> 03:50:48,640
Speaker 3: brutally suppressed, and you know, the sort of anti like then,

4298
03:50:48,640 --> 03:50:51,200
Speaker 3: even things that weren't even really that big but we're

4299
03:50:51,240 --> 03:50:53,560
Speaker 3: kind of antecedents of ists that attempted to use sort

4300
03:50:53,560 --> 03:50:58,800
Speaker 3: of maoist politics were also unbelievably quickly like stamped out.

4301
03:50:58,880 --> 03:50:59,040
Speaker 4: Right.

4302
03:50:59,080 --> 03:51:00,960
Speaker 3: There was the oppression of the student workers movement in

4303
03:51:01,080 --> 03:51:03,960
Speaker 3: late twenty tens. On the student sort of worker like

4304
03:51:03,960 --> 03:51:07,280
Speaker 3: maoist movements. The Chinese state does some sort of like

4305
03:51:07,560 --> 03:51:11,160
Speaker 3: limited mobilization online, you know, in terms of sort of

4306
03:51:11,200 --> 03:51:16,040
Speaker 3: like they have this like pr strategy thing overseas of

4307
03:51:16,120 --> 03:51:20,040
Speaker 3: like wolf warrior diplomacy or whatever. It's unbelievably cringe. But

4308
03:51:20,160 --> 03:51:22,080
Speaker 3: even then, these are not even close to the kinds

4309
03:51:22,080 --> 03:51:24,840
Speaker 3: of mobilization the state and the party could, like nationalists

4310
03:51:24,840 --> 03:51:27,880
Speaker 3: mobilizations they could unleash if they wanted to. And this

4311
03:51:28,040 --> 03:51:31,480
Speaker 3: is because instead of working through mass popular mobilization, the

4312
03:51:31,560 --> 03:51:34,800
Speaker 3: state isn't maoist, and because it's not maoist, it works

4313
03:51:34,800 --> 03:51:39,840
Speaker 3: through the bureaucracy. Policy implementation works by going from the top,

4314
03:51:39,880 --> 03:51:41,640
Speaker 3: and then if they go down to local government's local

4315
03:51:41,680 --> 03:51:43,400
Speaker 3: government respond it goes back up to the top again,

4316
03:51:43,440 --> 03:51:45,920
Speaker 3: it comes back down and the policy gets it implemented. Right,

4317
03:51:46,480 --> 03:51:49,560
Speaker 3: Like you know, when when there are mask like you know,

4318
03:51:49,680 --> 03:51:53,400
Speaker 3: mass campaign style things, they're not. They're not mass mobilizing people.

4319
03:51:53,440 --> 03:51:57,680
Speaker 3: They're mobilizing research institutes. They're mobilizing like government bureaus. They're

4320
03:51:57,760 --> 03:52:03,920
Speaker 3: they're they're shifting bureau and technocrats around. Now, I think

4321
03:52:03,960 --> 03:52:06,240
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of reasons for why the

4322
03:52:06,320 --> 03:52:11,600
Speaker 3: Chinese governments is sort of like pathologically adverse to anything

4323
03:52:11,640 --> 03:52:14,240
Speaker 3: that even sort of smelled like kind of smells like

4324
03:52:14,280 --> 03:52:15,240
Speaker 3: male style politics.

4325
03:52:15,360 --> 03:52:15,520
Speaker 5: Right.

4326
03:52:16,240 --> 03:52:19,480
Speaker 3: One of them is that, you know, these are we

4327
03:52:19,520 --> 03:52:22,840
Speaker 3: talked about this before, but like these are people who

4328
03:52:23,360 --> 03:52:25,360
Speaker 3: a lot of these people lived through parts of the

4329
03:52:25,360 --> 03:52:32,000
Speaker 3: Cultural Revolution, like they saw really fiascos emerge out of

4330
03:52:32,040 --> 03:52:35,680
Speaker 3: this stuff. But you know, the other thing that they're

4331
03:52:35,720 --> 03:52:38,000
Speaker 3: that these people are afraid of is that so you know,

4332
03:52:38,040 --> 03:52:39,960
Speaker 3: when I say these people were around for the Culture Revolution,

4333
03:52:41,480 --> 03:52:46,480
Speaker 3: like these people saw the Chinese working class take the

4334
03:52:46,520 --> 03:52:49,200
Speaker 3: city of Shanghai nineteen sixty seven. Right, this is all

4335
03:52:49,200 --> 03:52:50,840
Speaker 3: and this is part of the reason why Tien then

4336
03:52:50,920 --> 03:52:54,320
Speaker 3: rattles them so much because they you know, they nearly

4337
03:52:54,400 --> 03:52:58,360
Speaker 3: watch the working class take another Chinese city, and these

4338
03:52:58,680 --> 03:53:01,000
Speaker 3: these are people who have a you know, and I

4339
03:53:01,400 --> 03:53:04,760
Speaker 3: think understand this on a more visceral level than most

4340
03:53:04,840 --> 03:53:09,600
Speaker 3: other political leaders. Understand that if they if they don't

4341
03:53:09,720 --> 03:53:13,120
Speaker 3: correctly manage situations and like stamp up popular mobilization like

4342
03:53:13,200 --> 03:53:17,000
Speaker 3: they could, you know, there there are worlds where they

4343
03:53:17,120 --> 03:53:19,080
Speaker 3: fucking wake up, thet dragged out of their houses and

4344
03:53:19,080 --> 03:53:21,680
Speaker 3: the Chinese working class hangs them from lamp posts. Right,

4345
03:53:21,960 --> 03:53:25,480
Speaker 3: that's a real threat. And this is part of why

4346
03:53:25,560 --> 03:53:28,720
Speaker 3: you know, they're using something that's something that's called neoliberalism, right,

4347
03:53:28,920 --> 03:53:31,720
Speaker 3: the disenchantment of politics. They this is, this is why

4348
03:53:31,760 --> 03:53:34,720
Speaker 3: the state, even when it's doing repression, operates through sort

4349
03:53:34,760 --> 03:53:41,120
Speaker 3: of technocratic and bureaucratic means. Now, journalists resort to calling

4350
03:53:41,960 --> 03:53:45,080
Speaker 3: this maoism because they're lazy hacks who are also racist.

4351
03:53:45,600 --> 03:53:49,080
Speaker 3: But you know, we we can see pretty clearly by

4352
03:53:49,080 --> 03:53:52,840
Speaker 3: actually looking at how the state functions that this is

4353
03:53:52,880 --> 03:53:57,000
Speaker 3: not maoism. Maoism is built on mass popular mobilization. The

4354
03:53:57,000 --> 03:54:00,640
Speaker 3: modern CCP is built on stamping out mass popular mobilization.

4355
03:54:02,480 --> 03:54:05,200
Speaker 3: This has been niked, happened here, Yeah, happy to lean

4356
03:54:05,240 --> 03:54:06,080
Speaker 3: your New Year's everyone.

4357
03:54:10,280 --> 03:54:13,440
Speaker 2: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4358
03:54:13,480 --> 03:54:15,400
Speaker 2: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4359
03:54:16,000 --> 03:54:18,360
Speaker 3: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

4360
03:54:18,560 --> 03:54:21,240
Speaker 12: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

4361
03:54:21,280 --> 03:54:24,400
Speaker 12: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

4362
03:54:24,440 --> 03:54:27,600
Speaker 12: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

4363
03:54:27,640 --> 03:54:30,320
Speaker 12: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at

4364
03:54:30,360 --> 03:54:33,600
Speaker 12: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.