WEBVTT - John Green Tests the Limits of YouTube 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:23.436 Pushkin. What's your what's your job? When when people say 0:00:23.716 --> 0:00:26.316 say your name and your job, what do you say? 0:00:26.876 --> 0:00:29.756 I usually say that I work in educational video because 0:00:29.796 --> 0:00:33.476 that shuts down the conversation pretty quickly, or else I 0:00:33.596 --> 0:00:37.036 say that I that I write books. Depends on the context. 0:00:37.076 --> 0:00:40.316 I guess you just whatever shuts it down fastest. Most 0:00:40.316 --> 0:00:42.796 of the time, I want to try to talk about 0:00:42.836 --> 0:00:45.876 the person I'm talking to, not about myself, and so 0:00:45.996 --> 0:00:48.316 far as possible, then let me apologize to you for 0:00:48.396 --> 0:00:56.156 the next album. For the next hour, I'm Jacob Goldstein 0:00:56.316 --> 0:00:58.996 and this is What's Your Problem, the show where entrepreneurs 0:00:59.036 --> 0:01:01.156 and engineers talk about how they're going to change the 0:01:01.196 --> 0:01:04.516 world once they solve a few problems. My guest today 0:01:04.636 --> 0:01:07.836 is John Dreen. He's the author of several novels, including 0:01:07.956 --> 0:01:11.076 The Fault in Our Star, which sold millions of copies 0:01:11.196 --> 0:01:13.996 and was made into a movie, but he has not 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:17.276 quit his day job at the educational video company he 0:01:17.316 --> 0:01:20.556 co founded with his brother. The company is called Complexly, 0:01:20.716 --> 0:01:23.396 and among other things, the company makes a series of 0:01:23.436 --> 0:01:27.476 YouTube videos called crash Course. The videos are wildly popular. 0:01:27.836 --> 0:01:31.676 They've been viewed billions of times, but John wants complexly 0:01:31.716 --> 0:01:34.276 to do more. The problem he wants to solve is this, 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:37.956 how do you make YouTube videos that actually help people 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:43.476 make it through college? John's online production company, and to 0:01:43.556 --> 0:01:45.316 hear him tell it, much of his success as a 0:01:45.356 --> 0:01:48.596 novelist grew out of his desire to hang out with 0:01:48.636 --> 0:01:51.476 his brother Hank more often. They lived far apart from 0:01:51.516 --> 0:01:53.916 each other. They didn't talk much, but John told me 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:58.916 they bonded over online video. When we started watching online 0:01:58.996 --> 0:02:04.876 video in two thousand and six, we just loved it. 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:09.876 We loved the way that it just felt wetly different 0:02:09.916 --> 0:02:14.476 from television. It felt completely different from any other visual media. 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:20.676 It felt wide open in exciting and terrifying ways. And 0:02:21.836 --> 0:02:25.036 you know, back then I was writing books and in 0:02:25.076 --> 0:02:29.716 my mid twenties, and Hank was running a blog called 0:02:29.756 --> 0:02:34.236 eco Geek, and watching YouTube videos together was the main 0:02:34.356 --> 0:02:36.796 point of connection for us. We didn't talk on the 0:02:36.836 --> 0:02:40.716 phone much, we weren't that close, really, but we loved 0:02:40.836 --> 0:02:44.676 these YouTube channels and these other non YouTube online video 0:02:44.876 --> 0:02:49.516 projects so much that it became, you know, the kind 0:02:49.556 --> 0:02:54.516 of the place for us to connect as brothers in adulthood. 0:02:54.756 --> 0:02:58.276 And then in December of two thousand and six, I 0:02:58.356 --> 0:03:00.636 came to Hank with the idea, well, what if we 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:04.516 made our own YouTube channel. I make a video on Monday, 0:03:04.556 --> 0:03:06.756 You make a video on Tuesday, and we do that 0:03:06.876 --> 0:03:10.196 every weekday for all of two thousands seven. So you 0:03:10.196 --> 0:03:12.156 start doing it. Well, like, what was it? Like? How'd 0:03:12.156 --> 0:03:16.316 it go? I would say, for like the first hundred videos, 0:03:16.356 --> 0:03:18.876 for the first six months or so of the project, 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:22.316 we had an average of four hundred viewers per video, 0:03:22.996 --> 0:03:25.996 and that sounds very small by contemporary standards, but it 0:03:26.036 --> 0:03:29.116 felt amazing to us. Okay, so you got your four 0:03:29.196 --> 0:03:34.316 hundred people. What happens next? In July of that year, 0:03:34.556 --> 0:03:37.996 Hank released a song about the Last Harry Potter Book, 0:03:38.116 --> 0:03:41.156 which is probably like the single most important thing that 0:03:41.196 --> 0:03:45.756 ever happened to us professionally and the single biggest thing 0:03:45.796 --> 0:03:48.596 in my professional life looking back at it. Because it 0:03:48.636 --> 0:03:50.956 was featured on the front page of YouTube, it got 0:03:50.996 --> 0:03:54.196 a lot of views. But more importantly than getting a 0:03:54.196 --> 0:03:58.876 lot of views, a large section of the Harry Potter 0:03:58.996 --> 0:04:04.636 fandom came into our community. And these were people with 0:04:04.676 --> 0:04:10.236 a lot of experience in how to structure fan communities, 0:04:10.236 --> 0:04:13.956 how to make message boards, how to do stuff together, 0:04:14.556 --> 0:04:19.036 and we learned so much from them, and you know, 0:04:19.076 --> 0:04:22.356 almost overnight we went from having I think two hundred 0:04:22.356 --> 0:04:26.556 and fifty YouTube subscribers to something like five thousand. And 0:04:26.916 --> 0:04:29.116 that was scary in some ways, like it was hard 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:30.676 to know what to do with that, but it was 0:04:30.716 --> 0:04:35.156 also really invigorating and exciting. And because those people had 0:04:35.396 --> 0:04:40.476 so many deep connections in building online communities, we had 0:04:40.516 --> 0:04:44.916 a huge headstart, which eventually led to the schedule that 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:47.556 we have now where every Tuesday I make a video 0:04:47.596 --> 0:04:50.836 addressed to Hank and every Friday he makes a video 0:04:50.876 --> 0:04:53.676 addressed to me. And you know, at this point, we've 0:04:53.716 --> 0:04:58.756 been doing that for fifteen years and it continues to 0:04:58.836 --> 0:05:03.716 really be the center of my professional life and the 0:05:03.876 --> 0:05:08.236 part of and really fundamental to everything else that we do. 0:05:08.596 --> 0:05:10.716 I mean it, it's striking that you call that the 0:05:10.796 --> 0:05:15.476 center of your professional life. Still given yeah, extraordinary success 0:05:15.516 --> 0:05:18.796 you've had writing books that you get made into movies 0:05:18.836 --> 0:05:23.116 and sell millions of copies, right, Like, that's an amazing statement. Yeah, 0:05:23.156 --> 0:05:26.676 but I don't think that those books would have been 0:05:26.716 --> 0:05:32.916 as successful without that community. First off, but more importantly 0:05:33.036 --> 0:05:39.116 to me, we are still in an ongoing learning process 0:05:39.956 --> 0:05:45.316 with them. I am always learning new strategies for being 0:05:45.676 --> 0:05:49.476 in community with people, which is I mean to me anyway, 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:52.796 kind of the meaning of life. So it is at 0:05:52.796 --> 0:05:55.596 the center of my professional life. And obviously, like the 0:05:55.636 --> 0:05:58.476 other stuff that we do, is very very important to me, 0:06:00.196 --> 0:06:03.276 and now we have large teams of people working on 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:05.156 lots of those things. And of course my books are 0:06:05.236 --> 0:06:07.796 very important to me. But if I think about the 0:06:07.796 --> 0:06:10.436 thing that I would would most not want to give up, 0:06:10.436 --> 0:06:13.116 I would most not want to give up the opportunity 0:06:13.236 --> 0:06:17.596 to make videos for those people every Tuesday. A few 0:06:17.676 --> 0:06:20.476 years after John and Hank started making those videos, they 0:06:20.516 --> 0:06:24.076 started hearing from school teachers. Sometimes John would send his 0:06:24.116 --> 0:06:27.276 brother a video telling him some amazing story from history. 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:30.476 Sometimes Hank would send a video to John describing some 0:06:30.836 --> 0:06:35.876 absurdly complex detail of biology, and teachers loved it. So 0:06:36.356 --> 0:06:39.876 John and Hank decided to try to make real educational videos, 0:06:40.076 --> 0:06:42.436 a series they would end up calling crash Course. But 0:06:42.516 --> 0:06:45.756 here's the twist. They wanted to make videos that students 0:06:45.756 --> 0:06:49.116 would love. I remember, almost as a proof of concept, 0:06:49.716 --> 0:06:52.756 in twenty ten or twenty eleven, Hank made a series 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:55.076 of videos about the circulatory system, and I made a 0:06:55.076 --> 0:06:57.716 series of videos about the French Revolution and I was 0:06:57.756 --> 0:07:00.836 trying to make videos that pointed out that the French 0:07:00.836 --> 0:07:08.076 Revolution is not dry or distant. It's wild, yeah, super wild, 0:07:08.396 --> 0:07:12.436 super wild and hyper relevant to today. And learning about 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:15.396 the French Revolution is not something that we do because 0:07:15.436 --> 0:07:17.996 you have to jump over a series of arbitrary hurdles 0:07:18.036 --> 0:07:20.196 in order to get a piece of paper that says 0:07:20.196 --> 0:07:22.156 that you're a high school graduate. It's something that we 0:07:22.196 --> 0:07:26.116 do because it is wild, and it's actually quite fun 0:07:26.196 --> 0:07:31.596 to learn about and really instructive for understanding your place 0:07:31.796 --> 0:07:35.436 in the universe and in human history. And that's what 0:07:35.476 --> 0:07:37.876 we wanted to try to capture, that feeling that learning 0:07:38.396 --> 0:07:42.716 can be a true thrill. And so we made these 0:07:42.716 --> 0:07:45.796 series of videos, but we were again and again coming 0:07:45.876 --> 0:07:49.196 up against one the limits of our own talents, our 0:07:49.276 --> 0:07:52.276 inability to edit video with the quality that we wanted 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:56.116 to edit it, and two the limits of our own 0:07:56.156 --> 0:08:01.196 writing capabilities, the limits of our academic expertise. And so 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:04.476 that year, which was also the year that I was 0:08:04.516 --> 0:08:08.556 writing The Fault in Our Stars, we were really trying 0:08:08.836 --> 0:08:13.116 to find a way to make formal educational content with 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:17.436 a small team of one or two people. But it's 0:08:17.476 --> 0:08:21.956 so hard to go from two people alone in their basements, 0:08:22.036 --> 0:08:26.996 one in Indianapolis, one in Montana, to hiring someone like 0:08:27.076 --> 0:08:29.436 I had no idea how to hire someone. I'd never 0:08:29.476 --> 0:08:33.036 done anything like that. Well, and also, I mean, you've 0:08:33.076 --> 0:08:36.196 been doing this project with your brother because it's creative 0:08:36.196 --> 0:08:37.876 and interesting and it connects you to your brother, but 0:08:37.916 --> 0:08:41.076 it's not a business. Right, And then suddenly now it 0:08:41.116 --> 0:08:43.796 seems like you're talking about something very different, which is 0:08:44.156 --> 0:08:47.316 not just a creative problem, but like a whole other 0:08:47.356 --> 0:08:51.996 set of problems are arising now, right, Yeah, just the 0:08:52.036 --> 0:08:55.956 existence of a business is a whole set of problems, seriously, 0:08:56.076 --> 0:09:00.876 Like payroll is a problem, taxes and figuring all that 0:09:00.916 --> 0:09:05.076 stuff out, like having corporate Like I remember when our dad, 0:09:05.356 --> 0:09:07.556 thank god, like our dad was like, I can help 0:09:07.596 --> 0:09:10.316 you set up the corporate by or whatever. And Hank 0:09:10.316 --> 0:09:12.516 and I read this stuff and we're like, there has 0:09:12.556 --> 0:09:15.116 to be a president. Who's going to be the president? 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:18.756 And I would think the first or a first question 0:09:18.796 --> 0:09:21.276 you would have to answer if you're going to do 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:23.596 that is how are we going to pay this team 0:09:23.596 --> 0:09:28.756 of people? That was indeed the first question, Yes, how 0:09:28.796 --> 0:09:31.276 did you pay a team of people? Well, when we 0:09:31.356 --> 0:09:35.716 first started out, this is ludicrous, but I wrote an 0:09:35.756 --> 0:09:42.596 advertisement in Craigslist and shout out Craigslist. Shout out Craigslist. 0:09:42.636 --> 0:09:47.676 By some extraordinary good fortune. One of the people who 0:09:47.796 --> 0:09:52.756 applied for that job as sort of a videographer and 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:58.076 editor was Stan Muller, who's the co founder of Crash 0:09:58.156 --> 0:10:03.676 Course History and who has extensive experience in history and 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:08.796 extensive experience in video production. But to start, I was like, Stan, 0:10:09.156 --> 0:10:13.516 can't pay you to make history videos yet. I hope 0:10:13.516 --> 0:10:15.716 we can find a way to pay you for now. 0:10:16.076 --> 0:10:18.476 The way that I'm going to pay you is that 0:10:18.556 --> 0:10:20.876 together we are going to make videos where I play 0:10:20.956 --> 0:10:25.876 the video game Fifa, and that's what is going to 0:10:25.956 --> 0:10:28.596 pay the bills. And that is basically what paid the 0:10:28.636 --> 0:10:32.916 bills for the first few months. So you made videos 0:10:32.956 --> 0:10:35.356 of you playing the video game Fifa, which assume as 0:10:35.356 --> 0:10:37.756 a soccer video game. Soccer game. Yeah, I played as 0:10:37.796 --> 0:10:43.436 a Swindon Town fourth tier of English football, and people 0:10:43.556 --> 0:10:45.916 would watch the videos of you playing the video game 0:10:45.956 --> 0:10:48.036 and you would run ads over that and you would 0:10:48.076 --> 0:10:51.516 get money from that and pay stand to make history videos, 0:10:51.516 --> 0:10:53.956 which was your true dream. Well, at the time, we 0:10:53.956 --> 0:10:56.276 weren't even yet making the history videos. I was more 0:10:56.316 --> 0:10:58.996 paying stand to try to get to a point where 0:10:59.036 --> 0:11:01.116 we could make the history videos. And then what allowed 0:11:01.196 --> 0:11:06.796 us to make the history videos eventually was support from YouTube. 0:11:06.836 --> 0:11:14.036 YouTube had a content creator fund. We got a small 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:16.756 I guess advance you would say, because we did have 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:19.476 to pay it back through advertising revenue. We got a 0:11:19.476 --> 0:11:23.436 small advance to actually start making Crash Course. And that 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:29.156 was the critical moment, was them showing some faith in 0:11:29.196 --> 0:11:35.396 that idea. And by the end of twenty eleven, which 0:11:35.516 --> 0:11:37.636 was only a few weeks before the Fault in Our 0:11:37.716 --> 0:11:41.516 Stars came out, we were able to start making Crash 0:11:41.556 --> 0:11:46.116 Course videos because by then we'd hired writers, and we'd 0:11:46.396 --> 0:11:51.556 hired a team of animators, and we had the editors 0:11:51.596 --> 0:11:55.076 and videographers who we were working with closely. And so 0:11:55.156 --> 0:11:57.836 that was the beginning of Crash Course. Stan and I 0:11:57.876 --> 0:12:02.276 filmed the first episodes of Crash Course World History just 0:12:02.396 --> 0:12:05.916 a few weeks before the Fault in Our Stars came 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:08.396 out in January of twenty twelve. And then the Fault 0:12:08.436 --> 0:12:13.396 in Our Stars was also a big deal, right and tied. 0:12:13.476 --> 0:12:17.996 It seems very much to what you were doing on YouTube. Yeah, 0:12:18.036 --> 0:12:20.916 I mean, in a lot of ways, my experience of 0:12:20.956 --> 0:12:23.956 It was probably different from the outside experience of it 0:12:23.996 --> 0:12:27.036 in that I saw the success of the book as 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:30.076 a chance for me to take a year away from 0:12:30.076 --> 0:12:33.996 writing and really focus on Crash Course, focus on trying to, 0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:37.836 you know, make educational video that would reach a lot 0:12:37.836 --> 0:12:40.196 of people and that would be able to be useful 0:12:40.196 --> 0:12:44.156 to students in form of educational settings. That is super interesting, right, 0:12:44.196 --> 0:12:45.796 I mean, I don't want to make too much of it, 0:12:45.836 --> 0:12:50.356 but like the fact that this wild best seller of 0:12:50.356 --> 0:12:53.316 a novel allows you to pursue your actual dream of 0:12:53.396 --> 0:12:57.036 making educational videos. Yeah, I mean, I want to be 0:12:57.076 --> 0:12:59.996 clear that, like, having a best selling novel was definitely 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:02.356 also a dream of mine, and I was very It 0:13:02.436 --> 0:13:05.116 was fun that it happened, and I was very grateful 0:13:05.156 --> 0:13:06.676 for it. I don't want to sound like that, but 0:13:07.156 --> 0:13:10.396 my experience of it was that, you know, I mean, 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:14.276 when you're a working writer, you have to publish on 0:13:14.276 --> 0:13:18.356 a schedule. Partly because of the rent and the success 0:13:18.356 --> 0:13:20.396 of the Fault in Our Stars allowed me to not 0:13:20.556 --> 0:13:23.356 have to publish on that schedule, and that in turn 0:13:23.436 --> 0:13:26.396 allowed me to really be able to focus on Crash 0:13:26.436 --> 0:13:30.916 Course full time. Today. Complexly, the company that John and 0:13:30.956 --> 0:13:33.916 his brother started to make the Crash Course videos. Has 0:13:33.916 --> 0:13:37.276 a staff of around fifty people and a multimillion dollar budget. 0:13:37.436 --> 0:13:40.316 They've made thousands of online videos that have been really successful. 0:13:40.756 --> 0:13:43.476 Now John and his colleagues that complexly are trying to 0:13:43.476 --> 0:13:47.076 solve a problem that's even harder than making educational videos 0:13:47.156 --> 0:13:50.476 that are actually fun. That's coming up after the break. 0:13:58.716 --> 0:14:00.876 That's the end of the ads. Now we're going back 0:14:00.876 --> 0:14:03.316 to the show. John and his brother Hank succeeded in 0:14:03.396 --> 0:14:07.476 making educational videos that students love. Now there's a bigger 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:09.876 problem that they're trying to solve, or at least to 0:14:09.996 --> 0:14:14.356 help solve. Lots and lots of people start college, borrow 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:17.596 a lot of money, and then drop out. They never finish, 0:14:18.076 --> 0:14:22.476 and the reasons they don't finish are complicated and multifaceted. 0:14:22.596 --> 0:14:26.236 And one of the things that we've had to grapple with, 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:27.996 one of the realities that we've had to grapple with, 0:14:28.476 --> 0:14:33.916 is that this is not just a educational information problem. 0:14:34.076 --> 0:14:37.556 It's not just about the availability of information. Ten years ago, 0:14:37.636 --> 0:14:40.996 I think it was primarily about the availability of information 0:14:41.116 --> 0:14:44.876 that was the biggest problem then. The biggest problem now 0:14:44.956 --> 0:14:48.156 is much more complicated, which is that there's a lack 0:14:48.156 --> 0:14:52.676 of support. I'll give you an example of this to 0:14:52.676 --> 0:14:56.556 try to understand some of the challenges that people have 0:14:56.676 --> 0:14:59.876 when they're trying to do online college or when they're 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:02.316 trying to do a low residency program. I took a 0:15:02.356 --> 0:15:07.636 college math course that's offered through an accredited university, and 0:15:07.676 --> 0:15:10.476 you basically have to pass this college math course in 0:15:10.596 --> 0:15:13.996 order to even get an associate's degree. Okay, and I 0:15:14.036 --> 0:15:18.276 think that I am a fairly smart person. I passed 0:15:18.316 --> 0:15:21.076 high school math. I remember most of high school math. 0:15:21.876 --> 0:15:25.516 I could not pass this college math course. I couldn't 0:15:25.556 --> 0:15:28.396 pass it if you gave me five years to pass it. 0:15:29.236 --> 0:15:31.796 And yet I think that I should be eligible for 0:15:31.836 --> 0:15:35.636 a bachelor's degree. Like I think that the bachelor's degree 0:15:35.636 --> 0:15:39.876 that I received was deserved at least on some level. 0:15:40.476 --> 0:15:44.916 So I just I want to understand, like, if this 0:15:44.996 --> 0:15:48.156 math class is the thing, is it that it's hard 0:15:48.236 --> 0:15:52.556 to learn on like I don't quite Yeah, yeah it's yet. 0:15:52.836 --> 0:15:56.836 So it's it's that it's hard to learn online. Yeah, 0:15:56.876 --> 0:16:00.236 and also that there's not a lot of support. So 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:04.156 if I want to understand a concept in college math, 0:16:04.636 --> 0:16:09.796 and I'm taking most of the sort of online courses. Now, 0:16:10.716 --> 0:16:13.916 there's not a ton of different ways for me to learn. 0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:17.116 And what I need when I'm learning is I need 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:19.836 like a bunch of different opportunities. I need to be 0:16:19.956 --> 0:16:22.396 able to hear lectures, but I also need to be 0:16:22.436 --> 0:16:24.116 able to read books. But I also need to be 0:16:24.116 --> 0:16:27.996 able to watch videos, and right now there isn't much 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:31.476 of a formal structure for that. And so that's what 0:16:31.636 --> 0:16:37.116 we are interested in trying to solve. How can complexly 0:16:37.196 --> 0:16:43.516 better support the students who are going to be struggling 0:16:43.916 --> 0:16:48.516 with those early college classes that we weed out as 0:16:48.516 --> 0:16:52.556 the wrong word that proved to be needless barriers to 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:57.636 so many people getting the education that they want and 0:16:57.716 --> 0:17:00.876 deserve and will work hard for. It's just that like 0:17:01.796 --> 0:17:05.516 they need a whole different level of support in order, 0:17:05.636 --> 0:17:07.676 like I need a whole different level of support in 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:11.996 order to pass that college math us. So that seems 0:17:12.076 --> 0:17:15.396 big and complex and like beyond the scope of a 0:17:15.436 --> 0:17:19.356 company that makes educational videos. I think that we can 0:17:19.396 --> 0:17:21.636 be part of solving the problem. But I think that 0:17:21.636 --> 0:17:24.876 that's a great observation that we are not going to 0:17:24.916 --> 0:17:26.716 solve it on our own. I am keenly aware of 0:17:26.716 --> 0:17:28.556 the fact that we are not going to fix college 0:17:28.556 --> 0:17:30.956 by ourselves. So what are you doing? I mean, have 0:17:31.036 --> 0:17:33.436 you tried? Are you working on it? Have you made progress? 0:17:34.116 --> 0:17:36.556 We are trying, and I think we have made progress. 0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:38.876 One of the things that we've realized is that, like 0:17:39.156 --> 0:17:41.636 we are now working with Arizona State on a series 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:45.156 of projects, and one of the things we realize very 0:17:45.196 --> 0:17:47.716 early on is that we can't just make a here's 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:50.756 how to do college math series. We have to make 0:17:50.796 --> 0:17:53.956 a here's how to do college series, Here's how to 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:58.796 approach college as a whole, and here are the places 0:17:58.836 --> 0:18:01.436 where you can go for support that you probably don't 0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:04.996 know about because they're not frequently shared. So you kind 0:18:04.996 --> 0:18:07.716 of have to go meta. You've been making educational videos, 0:18:07.716 --> 0:18:10.636 but you need to make videos we're not just about learning, 0:18:10.636 --> 0:18:13.796 but about learning how to learn. Yes, yeah, very much. So, 0:18:13.796 --> 0:18:17.116 so are you actually making videos now that are like whatever, 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:20.316 goofy and fun and animated, but about like how to 0:18:20.396 --> 0:18:24.556 deal with being an online college student. We're trying, But 0:18:24.596 --> 0:18:27.036 I think you've just identified the challenge, which is, like, 0:18:27.076 --> 0:18:29.596 how do you make them goofy and fun when they 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:35.956 are like about like here's where your advisor is. It's 0:18:35.996 --> 0:18:38.156 not as fun as the French Revolution, or it's not 0:18:38.276 --> 0:18:42.596 as funny. That is maybe the underlying problem beneath all 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:47.276 the other problems. It's fairly straightforward to make the circulatory 0:18:47.316 --> 0:18:52.196 system and the French Revolution exciting because they are exciting. Yeah, 0:18:52.236 --> 0:18:56.476 and they are. They are central to understanding how we 0:18:56.516 --> 0:19:01.876 got to now. Knowing how to navigate the bureaucracies of 0:19:02.516 --> 0:19:08.716 large online university spaces is a little less inherently fun. 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:11.516 Let me give you an example of one video that 0:19:11.596 --> 0:19:13.996 I've spent a lot of time trying to think about 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:17.916 how to do. How do I make a video that's 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:24.436 about where you get help that isn't a boring list 0:19:24.476 --> 0:19:30.716 of places where you get help, because that I think 0:19:30.796 --> 0:19:34.636 is literally unwatchable. How do you make that video fun 0:19:34.796 --> 0:19:39.556 and engaging and not listy? That is an interesting problem. 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:46.276 Have you solved it? No at all? Yeah, it feels 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:50.276 very listy. Still, can you make it a song? That's 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:55.276 a good idea. I can't make it a song, that's 0:19:55.276 --> 0:19:59.236 for darn sure. But maybe maybe Hank can. He does 0:19:59.276 --> 0:20:03.516 have a history. That's a great idea. Oh, Hank is 0:20:03.516 --> 0:20:07.876 gonna I'm gonna text him. We'll see if he writes back. 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:10.156 He probably won't. I think he's homing right now. Actually, 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:12.876 that's a great idea, and it also reminds me of 0:20:12.916 --> 0:20:16.196 something that is a problem for me, which is that 0:20:16.236 --> 0:20:20.476 I get very stuck in how I used to do it, 0:20:21.276 --> 0:20:24.596 how it's worked for me in the past, Like how 0:20:24.636 --> 0:20:28.436 crash course history worked is just not how this can work. 0:20:28.916 --> 0:20:31.836 And so I need to maybe make the same kind 0:20:31.876 --> 0:20:34.956 of leap when we were not making vlog brothers videos anymore. 0:20:34.956 --> 0:20:37.356 Now we're making crash course videos. We're not making videos 0:20:37.356 --> 0:20:39.116 that are for each other. Now we're making videos that 0:20:39.116 --> 0:20:41.436 are for students. Maybe I need to make that same 0:20:41.516 --> 0:20:45.276 kind of leap we're not making videos Hank has replied. 0:20:46.116 --> 0:20:51.836 He says he says, no exclamation point. I was really 0:20:51.876 --> 0:20:55.796 excited for like thirty seconds. Then he says it's a 0:20:55.796 --> 0:21:01.196 good idea, which seems to be a direct conflict with NO. 0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:05.556 I think the no might might be about not like 0:21:05.716 --> 0:21:09.356 feeling like now I'm no longer twenty seven years old. 0:21:09.356 --> 0:21:12.596 I'm now forty three year old CEO, and I don't 0:21:12.596 --> 0:21:14.076 know if I want to do that, but I'm gonna 0:21:14.116 --> 0:21:16.396 make it. Oh yeah. He says. The challenge for that 0:21:16.516 --> 0:21:19.556 is making it so that it's not cringe, and you know, 0:21:19.596 --> 0:21:21.836 like you don't want it to be the like an 0:21:21.956 --> 0:21:25.716 educational rap video. That's the worst version of it. Yeah, 0:21:27.356 --> 0:21:29.516 the worst version of it is an educational rap video. 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:32.076 And I think that Hank is concerned that it would 0:21:32.076 --> 0:21:36.436 be that the bad version of it is indeed very bad. Yes, 0:21:36.556 --> 0:21:38.276 the bad version of it is bad, and that's a 0:21:38.356 --> 0:21:41.756 high risk thing. Was there any particular example you want 0:21:41.756 --> 0:21:43.436 to give it, a thing you tried that didn't work. 0:21:44.156 --> 0:21:46.076 I mean everything I've tried so far has been fairly 0:21:46.116 --> 0:21:49.356 listy or else it's been a little cringe. Yeah, And 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:52.716 that's another thing that's changed about the Internet over the 0:21:52.796 --> 0:21:57.876 last ten years, like the what makes young people feel 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:03.036 like they're being talked down to or feel like they're 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:08.036 being I guess infantilized has changed a lot over the 0:22:08.116 --> 0:22:11.796 last ten years. Yeah, and we need to reflect that. 0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:13.636 I think we've done a good job in general at 0:22:13.636 --> 0:22:17.436 Crash course of reflecting that in the ways that we've 0:22:17.836 --> 0:22:21.116 evolved our content as the you know, the needs of 0:22:21.116 --> 0:22:24.196 our audience has changed. But that's always a risk when 0:22:24.196 --> 0:22:28.036 I'm writing something because I am out of touch you 0:22:28.116 --> 0:22:31.796 are cram cringe. Yeah, like I'm super cringe like my kids, 0:22:32.236 --> 0:22:36.316 you know, are are duly horrified. After John and I 0:22:36.356 --> 0:22:38.916 talked earlier this year, he and his colleagues released a 0:22:38.956 --> 0:22:42.476 new series called How to College. A series aims to 0:22:42.556 --> 0:22:45.836 quote break down how to apply for, succeed at, and 0:22:45.916 --> 0:22:49.916 graduate from college. John still has not figured out how 0:22:49.956 --> 0:22:53.356 to make that list video though. We'll be back in 0:22:53.396 --> 0:23:03.076 a minute with the lightning round. Okay, let's get back 0:23:03.076 --> 0:23:05.476 to the show. We're going to close with the lightning round. 0:23:06.316 --> 0:23:11.996 There's a lightning round, John, I'm ready. Okay, what's something 0:23:11.996 --> 0:23:15.596 you watched on YouTube lately that you loved? I love 0:23:15.636 --> 0:23:21.036 watching these primitive technology videos where this guy you never 0:23:21.076 --> 0:23:24.596 see his face, but he's he just smelted iron for 0:23:24.636 --> 0:23:28.716 the first time. So it started out just kind of 0:23:28.716 --> 0:23:31.436 building structures, and then he made a kill and so 0:23:31.476 --> 0:23:34.956 he could have some pottery, and now he's made iron, 0:23:35.076 --> 0:23:39.036 so he's entered the iron age, which is very exciting. Okay, 0:23:39.156 --> 0:23:41.956 what is one piece of advice you'd give to somebody 0:23:41.956 --> 0:23:46.876 who is trying to solve a hard problem. Listen, Listen, listen, 0:23:47.836 --> 0:23:51.876 listen to the people who you are trying to solve 0:23:51.916 --> 0:23:55.076 the problem for very good. I don't think we do 0:23:55.196 --> 0:23:58.836 enough listening. What's your favorite app on your phone? The 0:23:58.916 --> 0:24:02.716 app I use the most is the I Follow app, 0:24:03.076 --> 0:24:07.116 which allows you to watch third tier English soccer games. 0:24:07.156 --> 0:24:09.316 And I'm a huge fan of this third t your 0:24:09.356 --> 0:24:12.596 team AFC Wimbledon, so that's the one I use the most. 0:24:12.796 --> 0:24:15.396 More than a fan. For the record, I am more 0:24:15.436 --> 0:24:18.156 than a fan, It's true. More than a fan. I 0:24:19.956 --> 0:24:25.116 am a sponsor. They AFC Wimbledon, where our logo on 0:24:25.196 --> 0:24:28.276 the liminal space between left thigh and buttock on the 0:24:28.316 --> 0:24:32.196 back of their shorts. I also own a small, small 0:24:32.236 --> 0:24:34.196 part of the team. But the great thing about AFC 0:24:34.236 --> 0:24:39.876 Wimbledon is that everybody who pays more than thirty bucks 0:24:39.876 --> 0:24:41.956 a year is an owner of the team, and everybody 0:24:41.996 --> 0:24:44.876 gets the same vote no matter how much they contribute. 0:24:45.196 --> 0:24:48.556 But not everybody gets the liminal space. That's right, Not 0:24:48.596 --> 0:24:52.236 everybody gets that coveted back of short sponsorship. If you 0:24:52.276 --> 0:24:54.836 have a ten minute break in the middle of the day, 0:24:54.876 --> 0:24:57.116 what do you do to relax. I don't have a 0:24:57.116 --> 0:25:01.756 lot of ten minute breaks. I have one ritual every 0:25:01.836 --> 0:25:07.716