1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Applecarclay and Android Auto 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever you 5 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: Let's get our arms around TikTok right now. The big headlines, 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 2: no golden share and an algorithm that will be licensed 8 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: and operated protected if you will by Oracle. Shep is 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: with us right now with the latest on all of this, Mike, 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: It's good to see you. To what extent should we 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 2: understand these details as being finalized or is this a 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 2: deal in flux? 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 3: It's still pretty fluid, Joe. 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 4: But we are getting at least a clearer picture on 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 4: some of the finer points that are actually important to 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 4: lawmakers here in Washington. One of the big concerns about 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 4: TikTok over the years has been about what happens to 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 4: all that user data on Americans if the company is 19 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 4: owned by China, and then who actually runs and controls 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 4: this algorithm? Is it subject to somehow being tampered with 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 4: or used to disseminate propaganda? 22 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 3: And that really is what got us where we are. 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,199 Speaker 4: And the idea would be that the new US version 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 4: of TikTok would copy in essence of version of that 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 4: recommendation software that gets the videos you want to see 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 4: in your feed, and then it would retrain it. Oracle 27 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 4: would be a partner in that retraining. Say that what 28 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 4: they were want, well, what they would do is they 29 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 4: would try to get the algorithm maybe to respond to. 30 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 3: Prompts and I. 31 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 4: Guess requisites set more by and for the American audience, 32 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 4: and also in a way that would keep it free 33 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 4: from the kind of manipulation that US lawmakers have long feared. 34 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 4: So we'll be watching for that and exactly how it 35 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 4: works and whether or not the new US TikTok can 36 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 4: be fully disentangled from byte Dance on a technical basis 37 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 4: really remains to be seen. It's a it's a tricky 38 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 4: proposition even copying the algorithm. 39 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: You know, there's nothing some guy in there with a 40 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 2: thumb drive and he's going to bring the algorithm over. 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: Is that it's a billion lines of code. Mike, this 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 2: is going to be quite an operation. 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 3: It will be quite an operation. 44 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 4: And you know, obviously this is the kind of thing 45 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 4: that Oracle does for a living. But yes, even at that, 46 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: it will be a big undertaking. And remember Oracle already 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 4: does quite a bit of business with TikTok providing cloud 48 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 4: computing and a lot of other data services for the 49 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: US operations and then elsewhere in the world as well. 50 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 4: So they know the company, they understand it. But whether 51 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 4: or not this will also satisfy some of the concerns 52 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 4: that China may have on its end also remains an 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 4: open question because they have their own requirements about allow 54 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 4: a sensitive technology such as the Byteedance owned TikTok algorithm 55 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 4: to go to a geopolitical rival and adversary like the US. 56 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 4: It is a sensitive issue there. 57 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: So I want to ask you about nvidio. But quickly, no, 58 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: Golden share was a big headline today and we saw 59 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 2: the President, I guess, rebuff a move by ol the 60 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: Pond Steel against the US steel plant based on that 61 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 2: golden share. Still, we're going to staff the board here, right, 62 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: We're hearing names like Burnoch and so forth. This will 63 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: not look like the board at byte Dance. 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, that's absolutely right. 65 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 4: We are not expecting this to byte Dance will have 66 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 4: a seat on the board, but they will not be 67 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 4: part of the security committee for the company. We don't 68 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: know who the other six members of the board, but 69 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 4: they will all be US investors in the White House 70 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: says they will have cybersecurity and national security vetting and experience. 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 4: We can look for some big names. We did hear 72 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 4: the president float the Murdocks, but it's unclear whether it 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 4: would be Lochlan or Rupert or somebody else or just 74 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 4: somebody from Fox that even comes to pass, So again, 75 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 4: details remain to be seen on that front. 76 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: We've talked about Nvidia a lot over the past couple 77 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 2: of months. Mike, you've spent time with Jensen Wang. You 78 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: know how close he is to Donald Trump. What was 79 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: the genesis of this one hundred billion dollar investment that's 80 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: ninety five billion dollars more than they announced they were 81 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,679 Speaker 2: putting into Intel last week. The money goes to open Ai. 82 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: We're talking about the potential of millions of stacks to 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: be put into use here. This is huge business for Nvidio. 84 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 4: This is a huge business and a huge business move 85 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 4: on their part because in a way it really does 86 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 4: cement this partnership between a huge potential customer, open Ai 87 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 4: will need all that computing power as it tries to 88 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 4: expand its own footprint, build its data centers, and this 89 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 4: is a relationship that they will want to build out 90 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 4: from the open Ai in But of course for in Nvidia, 91 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 4: this really vindicates their efforts to try to expand its 92 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 4: own text that here in the US, but also abroad 93 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 4: because open ai is not purely a US venture, they'll 94 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 4: have their expansion plans globally as well. 95 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: Sent in vidio to an all time heightsday just since 96 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 2: movement on the air. It's incredible, Mike, thank you so much. 97 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: As always, he's got his hands on one of the 98 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: best beats in Washington. Mike Shephard live at Bloomberg here 99 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 2: in the nation's capital. The House and the Senate are 100 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: on recess this week. I'm not going to have news 101 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: for you in the next couple of days on government funding. 102 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: In fact, we warned you next week Rasha shan Up. 103 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: The Jewish New Year begins this evening at sundown. Lawmakers 104 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: are gone. They're not going to come back until we're 105 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: right up against the deadline. The Senate will have i 106 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: think two days a day and a half to work. 107 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: The House won't be back until after it's done. So 108 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 2: that's why people are talking about so called jamming the 109 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: Senate with the cr that was passed largely along party lines. 110 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: A single Democrat voted for the continuing Resolution of the 111 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: House last week. It then failed in the Senate, as 112 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: did the Democratic plan. And it's something that we have 113 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 2: an opportunity to ask Emmanuel Cleaver about. The Democratic congressman 114 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,799 Speaker 2: from Missouri is with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Missouri, 115 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: of course the most recent state to try to redraw 116 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: its congressional maps, which Congressman I'm looking forward to asking 117 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: you about because I know you've been very passionate about 118 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: this and deeply involved. Just to clear out the business 119 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: at hand, though, I'm wondering what your expectation is and 120 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: if the government will shut down on October first. A 121 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: lot of Republicans are already blaming Democrats for what's about 122 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 2: to happen. 123 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 5: Well, I think it's important for the people who around 124 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 5: the nature to understand that what they already know, which 125 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 5: is that the Democrats are in the minority. We lose 126 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,239 Speaker 5: and vote, and if the government shut down, it can't 127 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 5: shut down because of Democrats because we're in a minority. 128 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 5: I don't know how the minority can shut something down. 129 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 5: The other thing that I think is important is the 130 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 5: President of the United States has not and is suggesting 131 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: that he will not meet with the Democrats. The people 132 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 5: around the country did not elect us to go into 133 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 5: our different corners and come out and fight most of 134 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 5: the time we're in Washington. But when the president says 135 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 5: he's not going to meet with us, what else can 136 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 5: we do? 137 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 6: And to be. 138 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 5: Sure, our leaders are not wanting to meet with him 139 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 5: unless we can get something guaranteed that the money will 140 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 5: be spent as we approved it. Remember last March, we 141 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 5: approved spend spending bill and as a president did a 142 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 5: recision just took it away, which he is not supposed 143 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 5: to be able to do legally, but he did, and 144 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 5: he might do it again. So my constituents I have 145 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 5: eight hundred thousand, like everybody else, they want me to 146 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 5: give them some insurance that the money that I vote 147 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 5: on will be spent. 148 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 6: The way I voted. 149 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I saw the Democratic version the cr that 150 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: got to vote in the Senate last week. Congressman, if 151 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: you had assurances or a deal in place to extend 152 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: Obamacare subsidies and a promise of no more recisions, would 153 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: you be on board, Well, that. 154 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 6: Would be moving in the right direction. 155 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 5: You know, it would be offered me to say yes 156 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,559 Speaker 5: or no, just simply because you know there are little 157 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 5: words that you can insert into the language of those bills. Sure, 158 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 5: of course that might be interpreted as giving power to 159 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 5: somebody else. 160 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 6: I mean, we always have those kind of little. 161 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 5: Things going, which is due to the fact that we 162 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 5: have two parties in Washington, and tragically and painfully to me, 163 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 5: they don't trust each other, and we certainly don't have trust. Now, 164 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 5: after the recisions that took place, I had a huge 165 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 5: amount of money coming into the state of Missouri, which 166 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 5: would ultimately be spent in my congressional district to do 167 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 5: solar panels on hundreds and hundreds of homes. And the 168 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 5: President just by himself just woke up, we'll go one morning. 169 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 6: And took the money. And that's not the way this 170 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 6: government is supposed to work. 171 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 5: This is not United States of America, where members of 172 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 5: Congress are supposed to would say. In fact, some might 173 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 5: say that our only responsibility is done handled with the 174 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 5: power of the purse. That's where we constitutionally been awarded 175 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 5: but during this last eighty nine months that has not 176 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 5: been the case. 177 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 2: So what happens to those solar projects? Congressmen, are they canceled? 178 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 5: Well that we had to counsel live here in my 179 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 5: district because and we've gone all the way out getting 180 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 5: things done, getting the community ready to data, announcements. 181 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 6: That this was going to happen, and the President just 182 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 6: took the money, just took it. You know. 183 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 5: The same thing happened with places like women's shelter where 184 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 5: women are able to go if they are being battered 185 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 5: or if they're having all some other kinds of problems. Uh. 186 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 5: The the people from that shelter will be in my 187 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 5: office sometimes sometime this week to tell me that they 188 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 5: don't know if they're going to be able to keep 189 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 5: the doors open because the President took that money as well. 190 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 6: Uh. 191 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 5: And and if you look at it the nation, my 192 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 5: case is not the only one, but it's certainly one 193 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,280 Speaker 5: of the ones that that's been impacted U primarily prior 194 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 5: to this recision. 195 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 6: Uh. And then to the. 196 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 5: All of a sudden the complete redistricting of the state 197 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 5: of Missouri. 198 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 6: Uh. 199 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 5: You know, I guess only because the president wants some 200 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 5: seats that he believes he can win. And if I 201 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 5: can tell you, you know, as inflation is rising, the 202 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 5: job market is diving, and economic growth is slowing, and 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 5: as you mentioned earlier, shut down is the possibility. 204 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 6: Why in the world would we. 205 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 5: Want to take time to do redistricting in the middle 206 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 5: of a decade where we all where we almost never 207 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 5: have redistricting because it's based on the census, and the 208 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 5: census is three four years out now. So any decision 209 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 5: that is made on redistricting cannot possibly be scientifically done 210 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 5: because we don't know where the movement of citizens have gone. 211 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 5: We don't know anything except that the President said he 212 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 5: wanted it redistricted because he needed a seat because his 213 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 5: popularity as well as the popularity of his power are 214 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 5: down in the tank. 215 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 6: And this is a rid state. Missouri. 216 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked a lot about this redistricting matter. Congressman. 217 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought it up. It's what I wanted 218 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 2: to ask you about. Whether it's Texas, California, New York, Indiana, 219 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: or yes, Missouri, each seems to have a slightly different 220 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 2: wrinkle here. You were the first black mayor of Kansas City, 221 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: and you know the importance of Trust Avenue. 222 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,319 Speaker 1: You're listening to the In a remaining couple of moments together, 223 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: I'd like you to talk to me about the cultural 224 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: and political MBA of. 225 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: Redrawing the congressional district that you now represent. With Trust 226 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: Avenue as a dividing line, I think we can say 227 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: openly a racial line of segregation in the city for 228 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: some time. It's this idea is reopening wounds and reminding 229 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: us that there are nuances when it comes to redistricting. 230 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: How important is that for the city in your district? 231 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 5: Yes, Truth is a ten point five miles running almost 232 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 5: all the way to the end of the city going south, 233 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 5: coming from north, which is where the airport is. I 234 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 5: was born and raised in Texas, moved here after college, 235 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 5: and I was told when I got here in the 236 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 5: early nineteen seventies that Truce was a lone of demarcation 237 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 5: or the Mason Dixon line, whichever you choose. And African 238 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,119 Speaker 5: Americans had historically not been able to live to the 239 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 5: west of Truths and so a Truce became an ugly 240 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 5: street because it went into deep decline. Businesses had shuttered, 241 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 5: and so when I was mayor, and before for that matter, 242 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 5: business leaders, along with civil rights leaders, worked tirelessly to 243 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 5: try to erase what had been become an embarrassment, and 244 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 5: we were slowly getting it down. The school district for 245 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 5: but moved its headquarters on Truth, and there were businesses 246 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 5: that opened up a big child care center. 247 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 6: UH. And so this line runs all the way down truth. UH. 248 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 6: And it is not good for our. 249 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 5: Psychological and UH and and racially inclusive city. 250 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 6: Uh. 251 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 5: In fact, it is ugly and ugly and nasty reminder 252 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 5: of days gone by. At least we thought they were 253 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 5: gone by until we looked at this map and saw 254 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 5: that my boundary on one side just went all along 255 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 5: truth and and and what. And it causes people to wonder, 256 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 5: if you know, like is there a subliminal message here 257 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 5: and and whether or not Uh the state would reconsider this, UH, 258 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 5: but I don't think they will. I went down and testified, 259 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 5: and I think people were Some of the people were 260 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 5: stunned to find this out. But I don't think they 261 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 5: want to angle the White House. So right now it's 262 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 5: standing and we'll file with UH. Have been suits for 263 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 5: and I think there's also an understative petition underway well. 264 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: As this plays out in the course We'd love to 265 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: stay in touch with you. Congressman Emmanuel Cleaver from Missouri's 266 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: fifth It's great to have you back with us on 267 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: Bloomberg TV and Radio. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington, where 268 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 2: we have a lot more to talk about today with 269 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 2: developments on a potential TikTok deal and alluming announcement from 270 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: President Trump. There's a White House Press briefing that's underway 271 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: right now. Caroline Levitt, the Press Secretary, telling reporters that 272 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: President Trump will speak on the childhood autism epidemic, something 273 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: that he previewed in his speech at the Charlie Kirk 274 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: Memorial yesterday in Arizona. Levitt says Trump will give a 275 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: quote major speech tomorrow morning, unclear than if we're going 276 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: to have an announcement as expected this afternoon on childhood autism. 277 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: We'll keep you posted on this. We'll assemble our panel 278 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: next as well. By the way, Rick Davis and Jeanie 279 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: Shanzano are with us today and we'll have a lot 280 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 2: more to get into with our panel as well. A 281 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 2: conversation with the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. Tyler Kendall 282 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: will bring that to us, and it's all straight ahead 283 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Stay with us on Balance 284 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this. 285 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 286 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 287 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 288 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 289 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. 290 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. Thanks for being 291 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. Indeed, as 292 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: we consider the Innvidia story today, one hundred billion dollar 293 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: investment in Open AI, and it immediately raises questions about energy, 294 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: the demand for clean, renewable energy to power so many 295 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: of these projects and data centers that are sprouting out 296 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 2: of the earth like weeds. Energy and securing more of 297 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 2: it was a big part of the conversation earlier today 298 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 2: with the Governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. The Democrat spent 299 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: some time with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall as he attended a 300 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: thirteen state summit to discuss the future of the PJM interconnection. 301 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: This is the biggest power grid operator in the United states, 302 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: not just in the region, serving over sixty seven million customers, 303 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 2: stretching from Chicago to New Jersey. It's a lot of power. 304 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: So the first conference here gathering the thirteen states and 305 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 2: Tyler started by asking Governor Shapiro about prices and steps 306 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 2: that can be taken to lower the cost of energy. 307 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 2: Let's listen or. 308 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 7: Here in Philadelphia, which is not only the birthplace of democracy, 309 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 7: was here that PGM started ninety eight years ago. And 310 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 7: I think this conversation that we're having right here at 311 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 7: the National and Constitution Center is really the first of 312 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 7: its kind opportunity for people from all thirteen states, from 313 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 7: all the different entities that make up PJM are here 314 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 7: to have a conversation on how we can act real 315 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 7: reforms so we can hold down costs and increase power 316 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 7: generation and give states, the governors and representatives of our states, 317 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 7: more of a say in the process. PGM has kind 318 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 7: of been a black box for too many years, and 319 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 7: as a result of that, they're two darns slow, and 320 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 7: they are raising costs at really an alarming rate. And 321 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 7: so I think what you're going to hear from all 322 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 7: the different states today, by the way, led by Democrats 323 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 7: and Republicans is a desire to see real reform at PGM. 324 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 7: I just kicked off the conference here, and I think 325 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 7: folks are ready for a good and honest and spirited 326 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 7: discussion about how we fix PGM going forward. 327 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 8: Well, Governor, since you referenced your opening remarks, you said 328 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 8: that if PGM refuses to change, we will be forced 329 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 8: to go in a different direction. 330 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 3: Do you mean to leave PJM. 331 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 7: We're willing to if PGM is unwilling to enact real 332 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 7: reforms to give governors and our sentives more of a 333 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 7: seat at the table in a say in these policies 334 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 7: so we can both control costs and increase power generation. Listen, 335 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 7: I'm in to all of the above. Energy Governor, overseeing 336 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 7: a state that's the second largest energy producer in this country. 337 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 7: We need to produce more energy as a nation to 338 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 7: give us more economic opportunity and more freedom. And because 339 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 7: of PGM, we've been stymied in our efforts. It has 340 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 7: slowed us down. And at the same time it's slowing 341 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 7: us down, it's increasing costs. So if PGM is not 342 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 7: willing to look in the mirror and really reform itself, 343 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 7: then I'm willing to go my own way, and Pennsylvania 344 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 7: can stand alone in this effort. We can produce enough 345 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 7: energy for us, and we can produce enough energy at 346 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 7: a far quicker rate than PGM is able to right now, 347 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 7: we recognize that that would have a significant impact on 348 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 7: these thirteen states that make up PGM, or the twelve 349 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 7: other states, I should say, as well as the entire nation, 350 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 7: just given the energy dominant passe we're standing in. So 351 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 7: our first hope is that there'd be real reform. But 352 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 7: mark my words, if they're unwilling to do real reform, 353 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 7: we're willing to go it alone. 354 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 8: Well when would you make that decision? Do you have 355 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 8: a timeline or a deadline that you're giving PJM to 356 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 8: respond to the changes that you want to see. 357 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 7: Well, look, I've already sued PGAM successfully when they tried 358 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 7: to jack up rates on Pennsylvania consumers and other consumers 359 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 7: in the PGM Great area. We won that suit and 360 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 7: we were able to save consumers nearly twenty billion dollars 361 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 7: in added costs. Today, we've just embarked on this important 362 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 7: reform conversation. I want to see how that goes. I'm 363 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 7: not giving them a long lease here, but I want 364 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 7: to give them some time to see if they're willing 365 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 7: to reform. If they make clear that they're unwilling to reform, 366 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 7: they're going to keep doing it their own way, then 367 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 7: we're going to have to go our own way. 368 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 8: And Governor, we know part of this conversation has to 369 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 8: do with the power consumption related to big tech and 370 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 8: artificial intelligence. Your state has secured a twenty billion dollar 371 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 8: investment pledge from Amazon for data centers as one example. 372 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 8: How much pain do you think us consumers are going 373 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 8: to be willing to bear here when it comes to 374 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 8: the need to invest in this critical technology. 375 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 7: Well, we have the capacity to be able to do 376 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,880 Speaker 7: both here in Pennsylvania at affordable rates. We can walk 377 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 7: in chew gum here in our commonwealth. We can allow 378 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 7: a consumer in their home to be able to flip 379 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 7: the switch on and not see added costs when the 380 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 7: lights go on in their home, and to know that 381 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 7: the lights are going to go on on the hottest 382 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 7: days of summer and the coldest days of winter. At 383 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 7: the same time, we can be open for business and 384 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 7: land is as you noted, an initial twenty billion dollar 385 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 7: investment from AWS to build out data centers. We've got 386 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 7: other major economic development announcements that are on the way, 387 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 7: and I think energy is a critically important component to 388 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 7: any of these big energy deals. What we're doing here 389 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 7: in Pennsylvania is turning on energy sources like we did 390 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 7: at the old Three Mile Island. We're converting old coal 391 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 7: fire power plants into natural gas run power plants, which 392 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 7: are both cleaner and are now able to produce new 393 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 7: energy onto the grid. The problem is we're moving quickly 394 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 7: in Pennsylvania, but PGM, too, oftentimes is slowing us up. 395 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 7: I no longer want to be constrained by PJM moving 396 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 7: not at the speed of business, but too darn slow. 397 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 7: If they can't move quickly, if they can't reform themselves, 398 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,479 Speaker 7: We're going to figure out how to do this on 399 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 7: our own. Economic development and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is 400 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 7: directly tied to energy generation, which is also directly tied 401 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 7: to keeping consumer costs down. We need to do all 402 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 7: of it, we need to do it. 403 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 3: Quickly, and governor. 404 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 8: Big tech companies say that they want to pay their 405 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 8: fair share when it comes to this, what would that 406 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 8: look like in practice? 407 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 7: Well, making sure that they invest in creating new energy 408 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 7: or paying for the energy they use on the grid 409 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 7: if the grid has capacity for both them and consumers 410 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 7: and other businesses. That's certainly the kind of deals that 411 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 7: we negotiate here in Pennsylvania. 412 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 8: And Governor, in the final minutes that we have with you, 413 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 8: President Trump last month said that his administration will not 414 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 8: approve solar or wind power projects. This as part of 415 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 8: a bit to tighten the federal permitting process around renewables. 416 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 8: Has this changed your strategy in Pennsylvania, which is a 417 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 8: top energy producing state. 418 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 7: Well, look, I'm in all of the above energy, Governor, 419 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 7: I wish the President was in all of the above 420 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 7: energy present, the President's actions are making it harder for 421 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 7: us here in Pennsylvania. In fact, as a result of 422 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 7: cutting a bunch of tax credits for clean energy projects, 423 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 7: the President is putting twenty six thousand Pennsylvania jobs, mostly 424 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 7: union trade jobs, risk of being lost when these projects 425 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 7: shut down. 426 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know. 427 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 7: Why he's trying to make it harder for us to 428 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 7: generate energy. We should generate solar and wind energy, natural 429 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 7: gas energy, and other nuclear and other forms of energy. 430 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 7: I don't know why he's taking these steps that are 431 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 7: making it harder for us in Pennsylvania. I'm a governor 432 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 7: that wants to unleash our full potential. We do that 433 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 7: by having a full range of energy options available. I 434 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 7: think the President's policies are misguided. It's going to put 435 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 7: people out of work, and it's going to make it 436 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 7: harder for Pennsylvania to compete. 437 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 8: And lastly, a governor just sticking on the President's policies 438 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 8: because part of the conversation when we are talking about 439 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 8: energy production does have to do with the workforce. And 440 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 8: we saw over the weekend the administration move to impose 441 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 8: a one hundred one thousand dollars fee for each one 442 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 8: B VISA applicants. I'm wondering if you see this for 443 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 8: impacting any of the sectors that we're talking about here, 444 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 8: particularly around tech, as Pennsylvania wants to attract those workers 445 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 8: and those investments from these big companies. 446 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 7: I think the president's immigration policies are making it harder 447 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 7: for us to compete, and I hear that on our 448 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 7: farmlands in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania all the way to 449 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 7: our universities here in Pennsylvania. When we can't attract great 450 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 7: talent to be able to produce our food or to 451 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 7: be able to produce the next major invention or innovation 452 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 7: that makes us less competitive as a nation. The President's 453 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 7: immigration policies, combined with his tariff policies, are making it 454 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 7: harder for us to compete and driving up the cost 455 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 7: of goods in this commonwealth and across this country. I 456 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 7: think what the President's doing is harming America, isolating America, 457 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 7: and making it harder for workers here in Pennsylvania, from 458 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 7: our farmlands to our universities. 459 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 2: Governor Jos Shapiro, Democrat from Pennsylvania in conversation with Tyler 460 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: Kendall today on Bloomberg TV in radio, and it's that 461 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: very last issue. They brought up the H one B 462 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: story that was born here at Bloomberg late last week, 463 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: a scoop from Bloomberg's Josh Wingrove, who covers the White 464 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 2: House for us, that I want to get into with 465 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: our panel, remembering, of course, that the President was asked 466 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: about this on Friday in the Oval Office. Let's listen. 467 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 4: You're very close to the technology CEOs. 468 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: Are they concerned about that? 469 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 9: Everyone's going to be happy and we're going to be 470 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 9: able to keep people in our country that are going 471 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 9: to be very productive people, and in many cases, these 472 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 9: companies are going to pay a lot of money for 473 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 9: that and they're very happy about it. 474 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: Well, it is going to be a lot of money. 475 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: We don't know if they're very happy about it. Let's 476 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: start with our panel now. Bloomberg Politics contributor Rick Davis, 477 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: partner at Stone Court Capital, are Republican strategist, joined by 478 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributor and Democratic analyst Jeanie Shanzino, Democracy visiting 479 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,360 Speaker 2: fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. Great to see 480 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 2: you both here, Rick, You're no stranger to the business world. 481 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: Is this true that companies at one hundred thousand dollars 482 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: a pop will be very happy to pay it if 483 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: it means getting the actual manpower that they need to 484 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 2: conduct these projects, whether it's data centers or anything else. 485 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 10: Yeah, And the assumption everyone's working from is there's going 486 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 10: to be a load of new H one B visas 487 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 10: that are issued for this kind of tariff. And if 488 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,479 Speaker 10: that's the case, that does satisfy a lot of the 489 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 10: concerns that the tech community has had with being able 490 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 10: to get qualified workers to come in and work in 491 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 10: their systems here in the United States. There have been 492 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 10: a lot of limitations put on this program over the 493 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 10: years that has stifled the growth of these companies. And 494 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 10: I would say I don't think it's ever slowed down 495 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 10: the recruitment of domestic tech workers that's been at a 496 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 10: premium for a long time. Universities have had to open 497 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 10: up new schools to just supply the amount of capability 498 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 10: that these companies need, and they still don't have enough. 499 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 3: So when you have an engine that is a. 500 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 10: Major part of global growth and certainly a significant part 501 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 10: of the growth. 502 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: In the US, you want to feed it. 503 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 10: And if it costs you one hundred thousand dollars to 504 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 10: get what you want, you know, my guess is a 505 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 10: lot of these companies will take whatever they can get 506 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 10: to be able to get new H one visas issue. 507 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 2: I had a feeling you might say that, and I 508 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: don't know. They may not be happy to shell out 509 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: the money, as the President said, But Genie, you know, 510 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 2: high tech is one thing. Farming for instance, might be 511 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 2: a different. Healthcare as another. The President says there'll be 512 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 2: a carve out for doctors. Is there some good being 513 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 2: done here? And that it does unlock additional h one 514 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 2: bs that would not otherwise be available. 515 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 11: Yeah, you know, I think this is a grey area 516 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 11: because we have long known that the visa process is broken. 517 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 11: Everybody agrees with that, and the President is right to 518 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 11: look at reform. But there's a difference between taking a 519 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 11: hammer and taking a scalpel, and what they've done is 520 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 11: taking a hammer. And we saw that over the weekend. 521 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 11: We had people on planes who were turned around and 522 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 11: came back because they were worried about leaving the country 523 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 11: and getting in. And then the administration came out and 524 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 11: explained this only you know, it applies to new visas. 525 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 11: So there's a problem of execution, but there's also long 526 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 11: term impacts on the US and just one you and 527 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 11: Mike Shepherd have been talking all day today about TikTok. 528 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 11: TikTok has been one of the greatest successes in terms 529 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 11: of soft power that we've ever seen, and it is 530 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 11: at the hands of China that power matters to our 531 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 11: future economically, militarily, economically, and so if you don't reform 532 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 11: the system, if you simply break it and you impact 533 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 11: the ability of skilled laborers to get into this country, 534 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 11: we are in the danger as a country of losing 535 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 11: when it comes to our power base, and so all 536 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 11: of these things are critically important. So I think what 537 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 11: we have here is important to reform. But that problem 538 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 11: of execution is one we've seen over and over again 539 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 11: with this administration. 540 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 2: Well, Jeannie went there to TikTok Rick, So I'm going 541 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: to ask you about it as somebody who puts deals 542 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: together every day at stone Core Capital, what you're thinking 543 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: about what we're hearing so far? And I realized some 544 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: of these things could change, and we do not have 545 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 2: an actual deal on paper yet, but we're talking about 546 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: no golden share yet, six of seven board seats, and 547 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: a plan here to license the algorithm that would be 548 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 2: controlled by Oracle. Does this sound like we're getting off 549 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 2: to the right start here, And by the way, this 550 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 2: has followed a series of delays and a law that 551 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: we're ignoring at the moment. Rick, Does this sound like 552 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 2: a good deal in the works for the United States? 553 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 11: Yeah? 554 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 10: I think Devil's into details on this. I mean, everybody 555 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 10: knew Oracle would be at the center of it. As 556 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 10: mentioned earlier on the program by Mike, it's the cloud 557 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 10: computing center they've offered to host it in the past. 558 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 10: You knew that the synergies with them would be significant enough, 559 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 10: especially their cybersecurity capability, to try and keep the Chinese 560 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 10: out of the back door. I would say, you know, 561 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 10: worries about us. You know, seventh board member appointed by 562 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 10: anybody in China or reporting back to anybody in China. 563 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 10: You know, if this was a defense company, they wouldn't 564 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 10: allow that to happen. Any other kind of strategic companies 565 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 10: can't have that. Why would we let TikTok have it? 566 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 8: So? 567 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 10: I guess there are going to be some things that, 568 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 10: you know, we'll have to chop some wood to get 569 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 10: to the bottom of. But the fact that it gets 570 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 10: it out of the control in the hands of a 571 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 10: bunch of people who've been helping to destroy our society 572 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 10: with all the malicious activity done through TikTok. I'm not 573 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 10: saying it's the only thing that TikTok does, but it 574 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 10: has certainly added to the divides within our country. 575 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 6: And hopefully that algorithm can. 576 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 10: Be tweaked to take some of the heat off of 577 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 10: the propaganda from China into the US. 578 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 6: Yeah. 579 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: Well, it's amazing, Genie, remember block the talk. This was 580 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 2: the most bipartisan affair in Washington was Hayden on this thing? 581 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: It was a national security concern and we're going to 582 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 2: shut it down. Things have evolved remarkably since then. I 583 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: guess my question is what happens to the Republican and 584 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: for that matter, Democratic lawmakers who are screaming about national 585 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: security enough to pass a law, and how long it'll 586 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: take them to catch up with President Trump on this? 587 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 11: Yeah? My, how things change when something helps you win 588 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 11: an election. And of course both Trump and Biden used 589 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 11: it in twenty four You know, I think that we've 590 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 11: seen that the Congress has been willing on the Republican 591 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 11: side to ben to Donald Trump's will. I think we 592 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 11: will likely see that again. But I think the devil's 593 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 11: really in the details. What does this agreement look like 594 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,520 Speaker 11: when they see it? Because the national security component is 595 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 11: critically important, and you know, I think it's really critical 596 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 11: to say that again on this H one, this visa issue, 597 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 11: this H one B visa issue. Look at China's response 598 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 11: to it. China not only sent a fairly cool response 599 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,479 Speaker 11: to it, and you know, similar to other countries that 600 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 11: use it a lot, like India, but they also have 601 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 11: responded with these cave visas. Right, So, whereas the United 602 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 11: States is closing the door on potentially critically important skilled workers, 603 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 11: China is opening it. And I think this is what 604 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 11: we mean about long term impact. They now are in 605 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 11: a position to sell us potentially this algorithm from TikTok. 606 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 11: They are now welcoming young skilled talent. This has long 607 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 11: been where the United States has thrived and excelled. We 608 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 11: have been the envy of the world. And that's why, Yes, 609 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 11: reform the visa system, but do not do it so 610 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 11: that you diminish our ability to compete long term. That's 611 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 11: the concern on all of these fronts. 612 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 2: Of course, you know, Rick, this deal is still going 613 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: to require the approval of Beijing. We haven't heard a 614 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: lot from China about this TikTok deal. We got to 615 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: read out on the call the President had with she 616 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 2: last week. But should we take the White House as 617 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: the final word on this because that's our pretty much 618 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: our only source at the moment. 619 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that time will tell. The Chinese are 620 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 10: not about making snap decisions. Obviously, this thing has been 621 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 10: lingering around and starting to stink up the business community 622 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 10: a lot. What's going to happen to TikTok. You know, 623 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 10: is it going to get shut down or is it 624 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 10: getting bought out? The Chinese would be smart to get 625 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 10: this done quick. If this hangs over US Chinese relations, 626 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 10: it's going to cause a lot of consternation in the Congress, 627 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 10: to the point where as you pointed out, a lot 628 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 10: of Republican members really went out of their way to 629 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 10: try and shut this down because they saw it as 630 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 10: an a agent of the Chinese government of the Communist Party. 631 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 10: And if this doesn't get done quickly, it gives them 632 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 10: the potential to say, you know what, this doesn't go 633 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 10: far enough, we don't have enough guarantees China will still 634 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 10: have a back door to this process and can really 635 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 10: start creating some issues. I've seen a lot of bolling 636 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 10: around TikTok, and you know, if you're on it, you 637 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 10: love it. If you're not on it, you hate it. 638 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 10: And a lot of parents whose children are on it 639 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 10: hate it. So I mean there is a political dynamic 640 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 10: to this going into the twenty six elections. 641 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: Well, there's two strikes for me on that one not 642 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: on it. Got a kid who is Genie? How about 643 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 2: the students you see every day at Iona at Harvard. 644 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 2: How important is this to them? Because Donald Trump has 645 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 2: clearly decided that this is a big deal when he 646 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: put the teaser out on social media. Remember he referred 647 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 2: to it as a company that young people like a lot. 648 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: How important is this for the young electorate? 649 00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 11: Yeah, I think it's very important, particularly a lot of 650 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 11: those people who communicate on it, who make their living 651 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 11: on it. We've seen the lobby for it. But the 652 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,440 Speaker 11: reality is is that what incentive does China have here? 653 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 11: What is the United States giving up to get this deal? 654 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 11: Because the power is unfortunately in China's hands. You know, 655 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 11: what are they getting out of this? The reality is 656 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 11: they have what we want. Donald Trump is famous for 657 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 11: going around the world and sort of slapping other countries, 658 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 11: but there's a few he can't slap. China has been one, 659 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 11: Russia has been another. Right, we're in a multipolar world. 660 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 11: Those two in particular, he has a very tough time with. 661 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 11: So I think the devil is going to be and 662 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 11: what does this deal look like? What did the US 663 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 11: give up to get this algorithm? And Donald Trump has 664 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 11: been known, by the way to say he's got an 665 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 11: agreement before it's been inked, And so, yeah, I too 666 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 11: watch his social media and see that, oh, we've got 667 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 11: this deal. Things are looking all right. That's not what 668 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 11: we hear many times from the Chinese side or the 669 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 11: other side of these potential deals. So I think we 670 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 11: have a ways to go here until we see what 671 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,359 Speaker 11: this deal actually looks like. And let's not forget in 672 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 11: the meantime, Trump administration is in violation of both a 673 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 11: law by Congress and a decision by the Supreme Court. 674 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 11: And that is something that doesn't get addressed enough because 675 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 11: there was legislation signed on this issue, and the Supreme 676 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 11: Court did issue a ruling against Trump, and he has 677 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 11: so far ignored that with absolutely no repercussions. 678 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 2: They always give us a new way of looking at things. 679 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 2: Jeannie Shanzo and Rick Davis, Bloomberg Politics Contributors, Thank you 680 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: both for a great conversation and for going into overtime 681 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: with us today so we could get a chance to 682 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 2: bring you a series of other conversations this hour, including 683 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 2: our interview with Governor Josh Shapiro. Stay with us on 684 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this. 685 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Podcasts. Catch us 686 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,720 Speaker 1: live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Alpha 687 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: Coarclay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You 688 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship 689 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 690 00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 2: We're going to connect the dots for you right now, 691 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: as we have been known to do. President Trump, as 692 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 2: we told you, has secured a trade deal with the 693 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 2: European Union, and he's talked about that as maybe the 694 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 2: biggest achievement yet in this attempt to rewrite our trade 695 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: relationship with dozens of countries. But he's still threatening a 696 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 2: probe on the EU, as we've told you, over its 697 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 2: finding of Alphabet, the company of course that owns Google, 698 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 2: over its advertising technology business, a probe, the White House says, 699 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: could result in new tariffs. This is something that the 700 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: President was asked about just days ago in the Oval 701 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 2: Office when it came to this more than three billion 702 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,479 Speaker 2: dollar fine of Alphabet. Here's what he said. 703 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 12: Did come up. A couple of countries said companies said 704 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 12: that they were they were taxed by the European Union. 705 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 12: It's interesting they weren't complaining about in that regard China. 706 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 12: They weren't complaining about other places. It's the European Union. 707 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 3: I think we're going to change that around. 708 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 12: It's just not fair if we don't want that to 709 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 12: happen to our companies. 710 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,279 Speaker 3: And you know, if somebody does that, we should be 711 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 3: doing it to them. They've got to pay. Let him 712 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 3: pay us. But he just can't do that to our companies. 713 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 2: Now, we should note that alphabet Google is also proposing 714 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 2: some changes in its own response, changes to its advertising 715 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: technology business by early November, just weeks away to meet 716 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 2: the European Union's deadline. But that is not everything that 717 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: the EU was asking for. And it's a pleasure to 718 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: spend some time now with Teresa Ribera, the European Commission 719 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 2: Executive VP for Clean, Just and Competitive Transition Commissioner. It's 720 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: great to have you with us on Bloomberg TV and Radio. 721 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 2: Thank you for your time, joining from World headquarters in 722 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 2: New York. Knowing that this EU find is in place 723 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 2: with regard to the ad tech industry, what is the 724 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 2: Commission's response to what the President just said, his response 725 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: to the fine. 726 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,840 Speaker 13: First of all, it's a pleasure to be good you 727 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 13: and thanks a lot for your question. In fact, you 728 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 13: know that from Monday onwards, a federal court will be 729 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 13: also in a very similar case, because in fact, what 730 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:33,560 Speaker 13: we try to do is to defend consumers industrials against monopolies, 731 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 13: against behaviors that accumulate power in a given market. And 732 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 13: this behavior, we're accumulating such a big power in the 733 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 13: buy and sell sides in the matching of the offer, 734 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,839 Speaker 13: so to provide the publicity in Internet internets that in 735 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 13: fact it was becoming a kind of monopoly that of 736 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 13: course we needed to face. And our decision is being 737 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 13: taken on the basis of the anti trust laws, as 738 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,240 Speaker 13: it is the very same case in the United States. 739 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you. As I mentioned, Bloomberg is reporting 740 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 2: that Google is planning to make some changes and have 741 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 2: this done in time for early November to its advertising 742 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: tech business, but that would avoid a complete sale to 743 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 2: be clear of Google's ad manager, which is the exchange 744 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 2: that we're talking about here. Would the changes outlined by 745 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 2: Google be enough to satisfy the commission or do they 746 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 2: fall short? 747 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 13: Okay, let's see. We will assess what the proposal may be. 748 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,919 Speaker 13: And as I say, there is also this very same 749 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 13: case taking place the Federal court in Virginia. So I 750 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 13: think that it is good for consumers worldwide that the 751 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 13: two decisions are consistent. And I think that your judice 752 00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 13: deserve respect in this point in time, as your Department 753 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,439 Speaker 13: of Justice and the teams will be in the proposals 754 00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 13: being made by Google. It's good that Google works to 755 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 13: make proposals to ensure that the markets function an unasuring 756 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 13: level playing field in this digital market too. 757 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 2: Well, of course you're here in the US as anglewik 758 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 2: gets underway in New York, here on the threshold of 759 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 2: the General Assembly of the United Nations. I know you've 760 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 2: been meeting with some of your US counterparts on this trip, 761 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 2: including Gail Slater, and I wonder what your view is 762 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,880 Speaker 2: on the current antitrust environment here in the US and 763 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 2: how much it may have changed since the Biden administration. 764 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 2: How would you describe that? 765 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 13: Well, I think that the whole world lend since the 766 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 13: end of the nineteenth century, that you Americans understood that 767 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 13: competition and anti trust regulation was there to defend the 768 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 13: rights of consumers, the rights of democracy, the rights of 769 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,560 Speaker 13: people against abuses in the market. And I think that 770 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 13: this is still the case, and I think that this 771 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 13: is all minded we are forces of the law, and 772 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,720 Speaker 13: I think that even if it is with different ways 773 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 13: to handle these mandates, gaies later deserves our respect and 774 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 13: the Americans of course deserves respect. I think this is 775 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 13: a very important period to build democracy and to ensure, 776 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 13: as I say, that citizens, consumers, innovators can count on 777 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 13: someone that takes care of this well functioning market and 778 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 13: avoids abuses of dominance in the given markets. And it 779 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 13: is not something technical that deals with big companies fully stop. 780 00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 13: It impacts in all of us because of the prices 781 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 13: that can evolve because of the lack of offers if 782 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 13: they kill competitors around. So I'm sure that the mandays, 783 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 13: the functions, the responsibilities that the anti trust authorities in 784 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,879 Speaker 13: the US have to defend are very much at the 785 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 13: core of the American souls. 786 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,879 Speaker 2: Let me ask you about antitrust, if I should even 787 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 2: use that term. When it comes to the AI race, 788 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,920 Speaker 2: there's a big headline today within video investing one hundred 789 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 2: billion dollars into open AI, and it's the latestness series 790 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 2: of massive investments that we've been seeing in the US. 791 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 2: You've the EU has been informally examining in Vidia's dominance 792 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 2: in the market for graphics processing units the GPUs that 793 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,760 Speaker 2: are powering artificial intelligence. What concerns do you have there 794 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 2: and what might this result in? 795 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,680 Speaker 13: So allow me to be very cautious in this point 796 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 13: in time. You know that as enforcement of the law, 797 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 13: I cannot comment on an ongoing case. But it is 798 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 13: true that what we see in the digital context is 799 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 13: an increase in concentration of power, So we need to 800 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,360 Speaker 13: pay attention, we need to take care. Normally, what we 801 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 13: witness is that it is not only European companies complaining 802 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 13: because of the impact in the European markets. There are 803 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:02,319 Speaker 13: also American companies realizing that could affect to the capacity 804 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 13: to develop their products under services. For instance, in the 805 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 13: case of Google attech that you will commenting, it's truth 806 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 13: that there is a picture of a big tech company 807 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,640 Speaker 13: is coming from the United States that operate in the 808 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 13: European market. But it is also truth that the benefits 809 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 13: of God we do it does have a positive impact 810 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 13: in American companies too. So in this case, seeing these 811 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,719 Speaker 13: corporate operations, we do pay attention. We have responsibility to 812 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 13: stay watching what it is happening and to prevent any 813 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,879 Speaker 13: type of damage. But I think that for the time being, 814 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 13: we need to be houses and assessed what it is happening. 815 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 2: Well, many would suggest that we're in a very different 816 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:48,560 Speaker 2: world now when it comes to business in the United States, 817 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 2: with the US government's investment now taking a stake in Intel, 818 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 2: some of the deal making between US companies that have 819 00:45:55,560 --> 00:46:00,360 Speaker 2: been encouraged or guided by the Trump administration change ed 820 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 2: your calculus when it comes to competition and antitrust. 821 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 13: We've read the news. Of course, in any of our countries, 822 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 13: there may be an interest to invest as shareholders incorporates 823 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 13: and the government's public money can be there, but they 824 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 13: need to respect the same rules that any private shareholder, 825 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,080 Speaker 13: any private investor. And as I said, I think that 826 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 13: it's good to keep calm, to assess what it's going on, 827 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,919 Speaker 13: and if there is something to be raised, any type 828 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 13: of concern that we may identify, we would come up 829 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 13: with the companies being involved to clarify whatever may be 830 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,120 Speaker 13: needed to clarify or to keep on going in an 831 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 13: infreshment process if it is a case. But there is 832 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,719 Speaker 13: not the case. There's not something like that that I 833 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:51,879 Speaker 13: can share with you right. 834 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:56,720 Speaker 2: Now, understood. I started our conversation by mentioning the trade 835 00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 2: deal that the US signed with the EU. I only 836 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 2: have about one minute left. Based on the elements of 837 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,680 Speaker 2: this deal, we had a lot of questions about what 838 00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,839 Speaker 2: this meant for you. Did the EU score a good 839 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,439 Speaker 2: deal here? 840 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,920 Speaker 13: We've been working together in the last eighty years. We 841 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 13: have been able to shave very good things the United 842 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,800 Speaker 13: States and the European Project, the European Communities, the European Union. 843 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:31,120 Speaker 13: Right now, global governance, technology, breakthroughs, trade all over the world. Security, 844 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,480 Speaker 13: and now we realize that maybe the terms that are 845 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 13: being transfer or commented by one of the partners have changed. 846 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,080 Speaker 13: I think that it is important not to escalate any conflict, 847 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,239 Speaker 13: but at the recent time, it is also important to 848 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 13: realize that we need to invest in our own and 849 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,880 Speaker 13: that's what we are doing as Europeans, try to define 850 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 13: and to do within the Single Market to build on 851 00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,359 Speaker 13: our strengths, and that also applies to this deal, to 852 00:47:58,400 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 13: this political agreement. 853 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,560 Speaker 2: She is Executive VP for Clean justin Competitive Transition at 854 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 2: the European Commission. Teresa Ribera, thank you so much for 855 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,759 Speaker 2: your insights today. I'm Joe Matthew, This is Bloomberg. Thanks 856 00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,920 Speaker 2: for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure 857 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,840 Speaker 2: to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or 858 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,560 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find us 859 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 2: live every weekday from Washington, DC at Newtimeeastern at Bloomberg 860 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 2: dot com