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Speaker 1: Cable news is ripping us apart, dividing the nation, making

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Speaker 1: it impossible to function as a society and to know

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Speaker 1: what is true and what is false. The good news

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Speaker 1: is that they're failing and they know it. That is

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Speaker 1: why we're building something new. Be part of creating a new, better, healthier,

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Speaker 1: member today at breakingpoints dot com. Your hard earned money

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Speaker 1: is going to help us build for the midterms and

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Speaker 1: the upcoming presidential election so we can provide unparalleled coverage

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Speaker 1: of what is sure to be one of the most

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Speaker 1: pivotal moments in American history. So what are you waiting for?

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Speaker 1: Go to Breakingpoints dot com to help us out. Good

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Speaker 1: Friday morning, Welcome to Counterpoints. We got an incredibly packed

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Speaker 1: show today. I'm going to have to probably trim some

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Speaker 1: of the context out of my long and rambling answers today.

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Speaker 1: There's so much to get to. I mean, the hurricane

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Speaker 1: is still barreling its way through this country. Wishing everybody

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Speaker 1: in South Carolina the best at Florida recovering these apocalyptic

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Speaker 1: scenes that we're seeing down there. Reports suggest death holes

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Speaker 1: already in the hundreds. Just we have no idea where

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Speaker 1: that number is going to land. Just absolutely brutal. We'll

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Speaker 1: have we'll have more on that next week. This week,

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Speaker 1: we have so much to get through in terms of

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Speaker 1: both domestic and global politics. There's there's a presidential election

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Speaker 1: in Brazil we're going to talk about later. That's coming

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Speaker 1: up on Sunday. We had elections in Italy, and we

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Speaker 1: have elections in the United States of America coming up.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and so start with let's start with Pennsylvania, right,

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Speaker 1: So the Fetterman Oz, the polls that were coming out

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Speaker 1: over the last several months that were showing Fetterman with

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Speaker 1: these double digit leads, maybe they were. They were fun

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Speaker 1: to see, and I think we have an element there.

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Speaker 1: They were. They were fun to see from the left.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's always always fun to see doctor Oz

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Speaker 1: getting owned. But I don't think anybody took them, you know,

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Speaker 1: too seriously to the extent that Fetterman was actually going

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Speaker 1: to win by double digits. It's it's still Pennsylvania. Now,

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Speaker 1: Shapiro the gubernatorial candidate, he may actually end up winning

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Speaker 1: by ten points against Mastriano. And I'm curious for your

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Speaker 1: take on this. This is a This is a case

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Speaker 1: where Republican the hardcore MAGA wing really got the guy

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Speaker 1: they wanted, and the Democrats got the guy they wanted Mastriano,

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Speaker 1: and it looks like he's getting utterly hammered. So I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering do you think he has any shot whatsoever? And

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Speaker 1: how do you think that race kind of influences the

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Speaker 1: Senate race. Does it lead to more ticket splitting or

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Speaker 1: does it drag Oz down? I think it probably leads

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Speaker 1: to higher turnout and enthusiasm, and that's what midterm elections

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Speaker 1: are really all about on both sides, right exactly, And well,

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Speaker 1: oh yes, so who benefits from that is the big question?

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Speaker 1: And I can see that actually being a motivator on

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Speaker 1: both sides in a way that Oz and Fetterman aren't.

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Speaker 1: Maybe Oz is a big draw. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: highly doubt draw on Twitter. Yeah, But actually, what's what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about this is over the course of the summer,

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Speaker 1: those polls were coming out with Fetterman up, and that

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Speaker 1: was I think for people taking that seriously, which included

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Speaker 1: the establishment wing of the Republican Party that was unhappy

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Speaker 1: with the choices in the Pennsylvania primary and has been

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Speaker 1: unhappy with certain races from Blake Masters to JdE Vance.

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Speaker 1: They took that very seriously, and it was another sort

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Speaker 1: of piece of this increasing tension between the establishment and

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Speaker 1: maybe the sort of maga wing of the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: And that was always, I think foolish because until the

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Speaker 1: money starts pouring into these races in the fall after

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Speaker 1: Labor Day, when that starts happening, you see the messaging

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Speaker 1: on both sides start to congeal, and you see the

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Speaker 1: momentum start pushing in the direction that it will ultimately

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Speaker 1: end up in. And so some of these summer analyzes,

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Speaker 1: whether they were in Ohio or Pennsylvania, I think we're

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Speaker 1: or Georgia for that matter. That's not to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think everyone is a great candidate on the Republicans

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Speaker 1: slay it. Far from it. But I do think that

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of premature a lot of premature

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Speaker 1: anxiety both in Republican areas and a lot of premature

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm in Democratic areas. And I'll add to that there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of serious polsters that I would argue

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Speaker 1: our center left who are still saying that we are

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Speaker 1: not gauging actual voting patterns very well. Especially in Rush

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Speaker 1: Belt states that happened to be once again the critical

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Speaker 1: key race states going forward, right these the theory in

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, which seems to be borne out somewhat over

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Speaker 1: the past couple of cycles, is this silent or Trump voter,

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Speaker 1: this voter who non responding to poles is just refusing

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Speaker 1: to participate in that process. And there have always been

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Speaker 1: millions of people who don't want to participate in that process,

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Speaker 1: but the difference has been that there were just as

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Speaker 1: many Democrats, Independence and Republicans who didn't want to participate

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Speaker 1: in it, so it didn't mess up your numbers. Now

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Speaker 1: it does seem weighted to Republicans. In twenty twenty Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin in particular, the holes missed substantially. So it feels

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Speaker 1: like Fetterman to feel comfortable on election night kind of

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Speaker 1: needs a five or six point lead. And again his

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Speaker 1: margin now is already down to four and two. And

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Speaker 1: the we had an element that showed it that these yeah,

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Speaker 1: Nate Cone showing these big decreases, and I actually don't

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Speaker 1: really know how that plays out from Astriano, but I

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Speaker 1: do think it is a lot of the typical Beltway

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Speaker 1: horse race over the summer, that analysis jumped the gun

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Speaker 1: in big ways, knowing or it should probably should have known.

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Speaker 1: It's an interesting example of how the media tries to

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Speaker 1: or can influence the way money goes into these races

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Speaker 1: and the way elections look. Because if all of the

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Speaker 1: chatter is like Oz is a dud, everyone in Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: loves Fetterman, that totally changes the way that people in DC.

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Speaker 1: Let it change the way that they look at these

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Speaker 1: different races, and it conditions the consultants and all these

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Speaker 1: different people to see things out of whack with what

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Speaker 1: they actually are. And I think the point about was

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Speaker 1: Johnson is a really good one. Even Mitch McConnell abandoned

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Speaker 1: Ron Johnson in his last race. Right. That's that is

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Speaker 1: actually really a huge, huge sign of how badly or

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Speaker 1: how bad DC is at reading tea leaves these days.

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Speaker 1: And at the same time, the Fetterman's stroke, I think

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Speaker 1: played a role in this in a significant way. He

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Speaker 1: had he hasn't been able to campaign like he was

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Speaker 1: able to campaign up until the primary, and that didn't

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Speaker 1: really sink in for a lot of people for several weeks,

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Speaker 1: you know, past the primary, and now now we are

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Speaker 1: getting a real sense that you know that his recovery

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Speaker 1: is not complete yet, and you know he's he's starting

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Speaker 1: to address that more head on, which I think is

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Speaker 1: which I think is the right thing to do, and

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Speaker 1: to emphasize, Look, this is this is a recovery process,

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Speaker 1: like this is I'm going to continue to you know,

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Speaker 1: improve that. These are the things I need to do

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Speaker 1: to improve. But it is it's campaigning with the and

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Speaker 1: tied behind your back. But let's go, let's go quickly

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Speaker 1: around the country Arizona. The conventional wisdom in DC seems

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Speaker 1: to be that Kelly is in a Mark Kelly Democrat

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Speaker 1: is in a very strong position. There is that how

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Speaker 1: are Republicans feeling about Arizona at this point? Well, that

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Speaker 1: race is one of the most contentious in terms of

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Speaker 1: this inner nice battle in the Republican Party because it

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Speaker 1: was clear that Mitch McConnell wanted Peter TiAl to put

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Speaker 1: more of his own money into it. McConnell pulled some

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Speaker 1: ads in August or those around Labor Day. McConnell pulled

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Speaker 1: some planned ads for Blake Masters. Masters is sort of

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Speaker 1: championed by the new right wing of the party. We

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Speaker 1: interviewed him I think he's a very interesting candidate, and

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Speaker 1: I like a lot of what he says. But the

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Speaker 1: Mitch mcconnald's of the world are now saying this is

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Speaker 1: not winnable. Mcconald's doing a couple of fundraisers for him,

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Speaker 1: but still quality was he was referring partly to Master's

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Speaker 1: probably candidate quality right now. This is Mitch McConnell saying

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Speaker 1: that in August, the Senate Majority leader starting to turn

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Speaker 1: his buyer on the candidates going into the election cycle.

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Speaker 1: And I think probably Ryan partially because of this incorrect

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Speaker 1: reading of the tea leaves. I do think Masters is

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Speaker 1: a better candidate than a lot of people in DC realized.

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Speaker 1: And I do think the more that we see money

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Speaker 1: going into that race on both sides of it, I'm

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Speaker 1: not just talking about money going into Masters, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about just in general, when you have the resources that

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Speaker 1: are actually going to look like what they look like

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Speaker 1: in the weeks before election day, so people are on

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Speaker 1: the message that they want to be running on before

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Speaker 1: election day, and as we get closer to election day

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Speaker 1: and people are actually voting, I think Masters is going

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Speaker 1: to close the gap. And I think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be a close election. I wouldn't be surprised if it's

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Speaker 1: closer than what a lot of people in DC realized.

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Speaker 1: Now Masters may lose, I don't know, but at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, that is one of the most

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Speaker 1: like if you're looking for a race that shows all

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Speaker 1: of the different dynamics in the Republican Party, look at

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Speaker 1: Arizona and New Hampshire. I thought was going to be

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Speaker 1: the state that was the sleeper, that was going to

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Speaker 1: be the most likely to flip Democrat to Republican. But

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Speaker 1: then Republicans nominated this interesting character, retired general I forget

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Speaker 1: the guy's name, Don Baldoke. Yeah, who kind of Twitter

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Speaker 1: character followed his timeline. It's a lot of fun. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed him once as well. Yeah, he's very charismatic. Interesting dude.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like everybody's taking New Hampshire off the

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Speaker 1: map now that it looks like Maggie Hassen went from

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Speaker 1: kind of either toss up to likely Republican to now

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Speaker 1: like comfortable Democrat. Is it is Balduke that on appealing

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Speaker 1: to kind of swing voting New Hampshire voters that it's

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Speaker 1: this race is over. Yeah, I don't know. How you're

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Speaker 1: feeling about this race. I don't know. New Hampshire is

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Speaker 1: such an interesting state, and you probably would know more

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Speaker 1: about this than I do. But the New Hampshire voters

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Speaker 1: are not your tip, especially on the Republican side, not

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Speaker 1: your typical Republican voters at all, sorts of more libertarian leaning,

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Speaker 1: which makes it an interesting test case in the kind

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Speaker 1: of maga moment, like our New Hampshire Republicans reacting to

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Speaker 1: more Maga Republicans. I think is actually kind of a

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Speaker 1: fascinating case study. So I don't know. I have absolutely

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Speaker 1: no idea what's going what's happening in New Hampshire, But

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Speaker 1: I do think the context of the economy right now,

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Speaker 1: where in the summer Democrats started to feel really good.

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Speaker 1: August had passed their Inflation Reduction Act, gas prices had

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Speaker 1: come down a little bit, they were still really high.

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Speaker 1: All of that context I think had Democrats feeling way

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Speaker 1: better than they should have been about the fall in August.

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Speaker 1: And now that we're almost in October, I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: doing this block and next time we're here will be October,

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Speaker 1: will be about a month away from the elections. The

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Speaker 1: economy is looking worse and the Inflation Reduction Act, and

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Speaker 1: the correlation between the Inflation Reduction Act and the stock

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Speaker 1: market is pretty bad for Democrats because you can see

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Speaker 1: it just dipping as soon as it's passed. Whether or

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Speaker 1: not you can serve part of that, yes, of course

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Speaker 1: you can part that different ways. The effect on average

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Speaker 1: Americans under a Biden administration, though, is not good for Democrats.

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Speaker 1: It's a drag on these tickets. And speaking of which,

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Speaker 1: we'll be here Wednesday next week. Well, we'll be pretaping Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to er it on Wednesday. Oh wow, okay,

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Speaker 1: because we'll both be gone for the for the weekend

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Speaker 1: Columbus Day weekend. That's we're going to air it on Wednesday.

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Speaker 1: There'll be old news by Friday. That's true. So I

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Speaker 1: now think the sleeper is Nevada. Tell me more that.

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Speaker 1: So Cortes Masstow is running for reelection. She's a Democrat

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Speaker 1: in Nevada, and I think that Nevada got hit. Las

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Speaker 1: Vegas in particular, got hit harder than almost anywhere in

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Speaker 1: the country by the pandemic and particularly by policies that

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Speaker 1: are associated with Democrats shutting down, shutting down the economy.

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Speaker 1: The lost, Las Vegas economy just was completely annihilated, and

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Speaker 1: as a result you have this widespread economic misery. And

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Speaker 1: to the extent that uh Las Vegas was the place

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Speaker 1: that you know, powered Democrats so that they could overcome

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Speaker 1: the rest of the state. If if they'd lose just

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Speaker 1: a small margin in Vegas, then that's that's that's enough

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Speaker 1: for them. And and with a lot of the kind

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Speaker 1: of Mexican American population down there, uh they're the abortion

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Speaker 1: issue might might not have the same kind of residents

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Speaker 1: that it would have in other parts of the country

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Speaker 1: that the voters that Democrats really rely on in Vegas.

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Speaker 1: So I I and and I believe the the Nevada

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Speaker 1: got Novada Republicans got the like kind of non scary

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Speaker 1: Republican that they wanted to right in the primary. And

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Speaker 1: so you don't have you don't have the the kind

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Speaker 1: of maga effect that's going to drag a couple points

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Speaker 1: off off of the Republican Although the counter the counterpoint

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Speaker 1: to that is in midterm elections, which are about energy

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Speaker 1: and turn out the maga Republican candidates. And if you're

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Speaker 1: looking at somebody like for instance, jd Vance, these are

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Speaker 1: people where or herschel Walker might be an example where

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Speaker 1: you actually do energize voters who actually want to go

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Speaker 1: out and not vote for the milk toast, you know,

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Speaker 1: Mitt Romney Republican, but are energized to go out and

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Speaker 1: be a part of what they see has change. And

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Speaker 1: that's on both sides. That's not just about Republicans. But

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Speaker 1: that is what a lot of DC Republicans cannot wrap

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Speaker 1: their heads around about the magabase is that the average

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Speaker 1: Republican voter is actually very very excited about and actually

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Speaker 1: these people do appeal to the average Republican voter. Even

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Speaker 1: if it makes Mitch McConnell uncomfortable, it can actually have

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Speaker 1: an effect on the outcome. I love that you're all

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Speaker 1: in on the turnout idea because on the left, I

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Speaker 1: thousand percent believe that if you put like a Sanders

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Speaker 1: wing candidate out there, you're going to inspire people to

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Speaker 1: come out to the polls, give them something to actually

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Speaker 1: vote for. When I look over at the other side,

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Speaker 1: like nobody's going to want to come out for that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like I gotta go vote for Joe Crowley.

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Speaker 1: So it's funny, Yeah it is. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I can't get my head around the idea that there

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Speaker 1: could be an advantage to running some of these mega candidates.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're from Pennsylvania, right, and and the Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: is a lot of suburbs. It's true that it's it's

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Speaker 1: true that, like the Carvil thing, you got Philadelphia one side,

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Speaker 1: Pittsburgh on the other, an Alabama in the middle. There's

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Speaker 1: still a lot of truth to that, But there's also

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Speaker 1: a like, there's a massive suburban vote in Pennsylvania that

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Speaker 1: is turned off by a lot of that stuff. True,

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Speaker 1: and it would and would end is you know, would

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Speaker 1: be turned off by some of the like if AOC

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Speaker 1: was like on the ticket. Yeah, oh absolutely, And both

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Speaker 1: parties know that, and that's why they start targeting these

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Speaker 1: suburban especially educated suburban women. That's become this like just

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Speaker 1: treasure trove demographic for both parties. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: I think the other thing that factors into this, I

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Speaker 1: mean abortion clearly will I think have some effect, but

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Speaker 1: you also then have education, which totally if you look

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Speaker 1: at what happened in Virginia with Glenn Youngkin just a

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Speaker 1: year ago, favors Republicans if they run on the issue

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Speaker 1: in a in an appealing and convincing way, which is

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Speaker 1: a very big if. And speaking of the viability of

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Speaker 1: far right candidates. Italian voters went to the polls onto

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Speaker 1: on what Tuesday and and elected Georgia Mulaney as the

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Speaker 1: incoming Prime Minister of Italy. A lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of debate over whether it call her fascist or not. No,

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Speaker 1: but so the party, like what the history of the party.

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Speaker 1: It evolved from a party that evolved from a party

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Speaker 1: that evolved from Mussolini's party. Uh, you know she she

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Speaker 1: used to in the old the old days say nice

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Speaker 1: things about Mussolini. Recently she's been she's broken with Mussolini,

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Speaker 1: said not not not a fan of Mussolini. She's pro EU.

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Speaker 1: She's kind of pro NATO the Ukraine War or pro

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine side of the war. And there was some

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Speaker 1: jokes on Twitter. Don't know if there were jokes on

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Speaker 1: Twitter when when Zelenski's like congratulations, A bunch of people

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Speaker 1: on the left like, see, we told you he was

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Speaker 1: a Nazi. He look, look budding up with this other

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Speaker 1: Nazi down here in Italy. And so there was another

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Speaker 1: there was another There was kind of a left wing,

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Speaker 1: working class kind of coalition that was running as well,

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Speaker 1: kind of the Five Star movement which used to be

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Speaker 1: you know, which started as kind of a post partisan,

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Speaker 1: kind of populist ish type of thing with with that

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Speaker 1: was mostly left coded but some right populism. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: when they got into power, they implemented a universal basic income,

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Speaker 1: particularly down in the down the South, and did a

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Speaker 1: bunch of other things that really had tried to appeal

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Speaker 1: to the material interests of the working class, Maloney really

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Speaker 1: very much appealing to the cultural interests, you know, anti immigrant,

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Speaker 1: the what what you would generously call pro family, And

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Speaker 1: it seems like, by at least a three to one margin,

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Speaker 1: the working class voters were more moved by the cultural

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Speaker 1: elements that she was offering than than what the Five

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Speaker 1: Star folks were bringing. And one of her first acts

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Speaker 1: was to just nix the universal basic income, Like done,

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Speaker 1: done with that. So we what do we draw what

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Speaker 1: do we draw from this about where our confusing kind

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Speaker 1: of working class material versus cultural politics are headed. It's

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Speaker 1: so interesting from an American perspective, I think we try

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Speaker 1: to sometimes graft the American left right dichotomy onto elections

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Speaker 1: where there are way more than the two party system.

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Speaker 1: So if your choice is Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton.

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Speaker 1: The handicap there is we're suddenly acting as though the

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Speaker 1: entire country loves Donald Trump or hates Hillary Clinton, and

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Speaker 1: that's just not the case. It's always more nuanced than that.

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Speaker 1: And this example is so instructive because of exactly the

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Speaker 1: dynamic you just said that cultural issues prove to be

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Speaker 1: more salient for how much of the vote did you

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Speaker 1: win twenty eight Yeah, that chunk of the voter base,

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Speaker 1: but that's not a resounding majority, I mean far from it.

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Speaker 1: Enough to win the election, but not exactly a majority.

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Speaker 1: And then when you juxtapose it side by side with

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Speaker 1: the working Class Party or the Yeah, what's interesting about

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Speaker 1: that is it shows particularly, I think what the American

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Speaker 1: right misses, which is that and what the left really misses,

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Speaker 1: which is that the culture war can be kind of

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Speaker 1: the big tent. That's something we say at the Funderalists

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Speaker 1: a lot. The culture is the big tent because people's interests,

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Speaker 1: they're sort of material financial interests. Those two things go together.

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Speaker 1: So if you can't speak your mind at work without

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Speaker 1: fear of losing your job and you need the job,

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Speaker 1: or you can't talk about your you feel like you

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Speaker 1: can't talk about your faith. Whether or not you can

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Speaker 1: actually do it is different than whether you feel like

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Speaker 1: you can do it. So take something like Maloney talks

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Speaker 1: about people's faith or their patriotism, people feel like they

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Speaker 1: can't talk about without suffering financial consequences. Those two things

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Speaker 1: are actually completely intertwined, and the left does a really

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Speaker 1: poor job I think of recognizing that and addressing it

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Speaker 1: by also tackling the sort of really discomforting, alienating culture

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Speaker 1: and coding immigration as purely cultural. It's probably part of

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Speaker 1: that too, because in Europe you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: left wing parties now the Sweden Democratic anti immigrant. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean this happened. I don't think people, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. It's again it's difficult to like graft

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Speaker 1: the left right diconomy from America into but this is

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Speaker 1: on the heels of what happened in Sweden. It also

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Speaker 1: reminded me a lot of what we cover previously in France,

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Speaker 1: with the juxtaposition of like National Front Marine La penn

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Speaker 1: And also you have a sort of far left you

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Speaker 1: can't really call Bernie candidate, but kind of in that

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Speaker 1: vein doing okay at the same time, and that's really

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Speaker 1: the real competition. Macron benefits from it because you have

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Speaker 1: these two, the split between those two. But yeah, immigration,

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Speaker 1: that's exactly I think the point. It illustrates the point

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Speaker 1: so well because there are people's both cultural and my

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Speaker 1: material concerns on the table, and to dismiss that as

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Speaker 1: bigotry necessarily as bigotry and not as possibly anything else

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Speaker 1: reasonable good faith disagreement. And you can disagree about the

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Speaker 1: politicians whether they're coming to it in good faith, but

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Speaker 1: voters that's a different question. And I just think the

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Speaker 1: left is struggling so much right now. In Europe is

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Speaker 1: a great example. They have yet to muster a really

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Speaker 1: good response. And in some ways the parliamentary system allows

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Speaker 1: you to draw out a little bit more of the

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Speaker 1: texture and the distinctions in ways that are obscured here.

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Speaker 1: AOC famously said a couple of years ago, if we

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Speaker 1: were in Europe, I wouldn't be in the same party

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Speaker 1: as Joe Manchin, which was taken as like a shot

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Speaker 1: but also just a fact. That's just an objective fact.

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Speaker 1: They would be in different parties. And so there was

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Speaker 1: a center left kind of technocratic party in Europe by

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Speaker 1: a guy named lata who who refuse to kind of

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Speaker 1: link up with the more working class left left parties,

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Speaker 1: because there was all you know, Italian politics is incredibly factional,

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Speaker 1: but for our purposes, like the materialism behind it was

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Speaker 1: what was related to blaming them for kind of tossing

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Speaker 1: tossing them out of power, like they blaming some of

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Speaker 1: these other factions for tossing them out of power years past,

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Speaker 1: like just you know, all just score settling and grudges.

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Speaker 1: So they so they didn't team up, but it's not

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Speaker 1: clear that they could have necessarily even teamed up because

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Speaker 1: they represent the kind of winging of the Democratic Party,

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Speaker 1: what you would call the kind of upper middle class,

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Speaker 1: professional class element of it, which has which in the

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Speaker 1: US is married together in this one giant party. And

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Speaker 1: so it's harder for us to see the the kind

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Speaker 1: of difficult the strains on in the strains that are

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Speaker 1: trying to keep that together, where whereas in Italy you

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Speaker 1: can just see it much more clearly that there's a

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Speaker 1: kind of both cultural and class distinction between these elements

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Speaker 1: of the broad left that make it very difficult for

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Speaker 1: them to team up. They just don't like each other

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. And these center left kind

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Speaker 1: of and center right technocratic parties in Europe are blamed

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Speaker 1: for taking Europe from you know, it's boom period of

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Speaker 1: the sixties seventies to what it is now. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think also, yeah, that's where you're going to see.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we showed the subsidy cut right away. That's

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Speaker 1: where you're going to see this interesting like return of

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Speaker 1: maybe austerity with a super pro EU pro NATO kind

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Speaker 1: of pro like European or order basically, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, attached to this agenda of cultural populism, center

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Speaker 1: right cultural populism. I would say, And if we could

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Speaker 1: put B five up on the screen, would be great,

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Speaker 1: because I think this is Larry summers tweet really is

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Speaker 1: the perfect tweet. He's talking about America, but he says

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Speaker 1: there's some social phenomenon which I suspect explains non work,

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Speaker 1: non marriage, does of despair, general alienation, and I suspect

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Speaker 1: the rise of reactionary populism. It should be a major

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Speaker 1: task of social science to understand it. Yes, thank you

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Speaker 1: Larry Summers. Ten years behind the curve on that one.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's just fascinating to see to your

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Speaker 1: point about the technocratic candidates. It's fascinating how much they

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Speaker 1: fail to come up or muster a legitimate, genuine, decent

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Speaker 1: response in terms of policy, in terms of messaging to

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Speaker 1: the rise of what Larry Summers is calling reactionary populism,

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Speaker 1: precisely because I mean, this week, the Maloney speech suddenly

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Speaker 1: just gets scraped from YouTube. The same thing actually happened

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Speaker 1: in Bat Tayebi. He had a video demonetized yesterday that

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Speaker 1: was then restored, and then the Maloney video ultimately was

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Speaker 1: restored and said it was an error. She was called

431
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 1: the Steady drum Beat, a fascist, fascist fascist. I think

432
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: the New York Times had a story that used the

433
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: word fascist like twenty eight times in the story about

434
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: this woman who loves the EU and NATO. So it

435
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: just like, if that's the response is to reflexively dismiss

436
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 1: everybody as a fascist and bigot, the populism is not

437
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: going to go anywhere. It will only grow because that's

438
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 1: exactly what drives it and what animates it. And we

439
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: all laughed at the Larry Summers quote, but I'm curious

440
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: if we actually have the same mesaeder, because I think

441
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: we all think it's obvious. But to me, it's neoliberalism.

442
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah is that what you were like when you look

443
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: at it, like, hey, yeah, yeah, it's you, Larry Absolutely, yeah.

444
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: We're all looking for the guy who did this well.

445
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: And I know people get frustrated and because the word

446
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: neoliberalism becomes us as a catch all and sort of

447
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: an easy slur for populists. But liberalism, I think properly

448
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: does encapsulate the cultural and the economic policies and the

449
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 1: marriage of those that people like Larry Summers sort of

450
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,160
Speaker 1: just dismissed or didn't see the serious, serious concerns of

451
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: what was happening when you're hollowing out the rost belt,

452
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: when you're de industrializing, when you're opening up trade and

453
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: borders with reckless abandon and not know implementing policies that

454
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: would at least be perhaps a safeguard or would do

455
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: that more responsibly. Getting super rich and creating this huge

456
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: growth of inequality. I mean, it's neoliberalism. There's no problem

457
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: saying that it was a rough day for the left

458
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: in Italy this week, but on Sunday the left has

459
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 1: a chance to gain a little bit of that ground

460
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: back as Brazilian voters are going to go to the

461
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: polls for the first round in presidential voting, pitting Jared Bolsonarrow,

462
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: the incumbent right wing president down in Brazil, against Lula

463
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: de Silva, former president, who was in prison at this

464
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 1: time in twenty eighteen. During the last presidential election here

465
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,120
Speaker 1: in the United States, we have you know, decent number

466
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: of people who either joke or say Bernie would have

467
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: won talking about talking about twenty sixteen down in Brazil.

468
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,640
Speaker 1: The line is Lula would have won. But everybody takes

469
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 1: that quite seriously left to right, like Lula would have

470
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 1: won in twenty eighteen were he not in prison. He

471
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: is no longer in prison. And want to pause and

472
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: recognize my colleagues at the Intercept Brazil for their work there.

473
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: Glenn's Greenwald, former colleague, got a massive cash of documents

474
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: and messages that proved that the prosecution of Lula was

475
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 1: entirely political, politically driven and manipulated and timed so that

476
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: he could he would be in prison during the election,

477
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: and all the messages were were you know, proved the case,

478
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: which go to actually a question we talk about a

479
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: lot hacked materials because it turned out that these were

480
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: hacked by people who by citizens who had a sense

481
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: that this was the case, hacked and then leaked to

482
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: the press. And so whenever anybody has a question of

483
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: is it okay to publish hacked documents, I would say, well,

484
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,680
Speaker 1: Lula is free and potentially on his way to becoming

485
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 1: president of Brazil again. Polls have him at fifty one

486
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: to fifty two percent at this point was still some

487
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: ten to twenty percent undecided. On top of that, and

488
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: if he wins fifty percent on Sunday, there's no second round,

489
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: that's a knockout first round win. So the polls say

490
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: that he will because if he's pulling at fifty one,

491
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: and let's say he gets a quarter of the undecideds,

492
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 1: that's pushing him to fifty five sixty percent of the vote.

493
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: Bolscenario is already saying polls are fake. I got secret

494
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: Bolsonaro voters all over the place. I'm not recognizing these

495
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: this tally if it comes through, which has put the

496
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: United States in a fascinating position because the US has

497
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 1: signaled no, we are going to recognize the results of

498
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: this election, which means that maybe for the first time ever,

499
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: the US is working against a right wing coup in

500
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: South America. Well, things have changed. We're weird. But I

501
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: actually think it's part of our partisan polarization because I

502
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: think Democrats in the US associate Bolsonara with trump Ism,

503
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: yes and Trumps, and associate the social democratic left and

504
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: Luila with kind of Democrats, and so they're partisanship overwhelmed.

505
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 1: They're they're kind of kind of structural impulse towards supporting

506
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: right wing coups in South America. It's like, wait, the US, wait,

507
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: there have there have to be strong forces pushing back

508
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: to have this US State Department saying that they're going

509
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: to be hands off on a right wing coup like

510
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: that's and so that's I think how strong partisanship is

511
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: now in this and it's and it's going global. To

512
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: be fair, we have not checked in with the CIA.

513
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: Well you know, we'll see, yeah, we'll see. No good point.

514
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: So the tweet that was just up on the screen

515
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: for everybody listening showed that Senator Bernie Sanders and Tim

516
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: Kaine had a resolution that was passed over in the

517
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: Senate to support the free and fair elections in Brazil.

518
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: I have seen media speculation that there could be political

519
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: violence this weekend there will be political vines. Yeah, tell

520
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: us more about that. The intensity of our politics here

521
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: in the US just crank it up by several magnitudes.

522
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: There already has been violence right in this election. Back

523
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: in July, someone was shot, right, well, in twenty eighteen,

524
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 1: Bolsonaro was stabbed, like literally stabbed, almost killed during the election.

525
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: So you know, it cuts both ways. But it's mostly

526
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 1: Bolsonaristas who are beaten up, who are beating up people

527
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: in the streets. And Bolsonaro has been setting all sorts

528
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: of signals, saying to his supporters after the election, quote,

529
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: you know what to do, like that's that's the code,

530
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: and it's not that's not very impressive code, like you know,

531
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: you know what to do? Is they do know what

532
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: to do. And he has stacked his administration with a

533
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: ton of military figures, and he has openly praised the

534
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: military dictatorship over his entire career. Uh he he has

535
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: said that Brazil would be better off if it went

536
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: back to a military dictatorship. But just like Trump, he

537
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: there are a lot of elements within the military that

538
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: that are alienated by him, that that are not necessarily

539
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: supportive of him. And also if you're in the Brazilian military,

540
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: you take more orders from the United States than you

541
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: do necessarily from the civilian government in Brazil, and so

542
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: if they're signaling no coup, then it's going to be

543
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: much more difficult for him. He has and when he

544
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: has tried to bring massive crowds out, they've they've they've

545
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: often fallen short of what the expectations were. And so

546
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: because the less unlike the here in the US, necessarily

547
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: because they can marshal, you know, huge numbers in the

548
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 1: streets too, I think it will be more difficult for

549
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: him to seize this. It reminds me of Bolivia, where

550
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: they successfully pulled off a coup in what twenty and

551
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: kept Morales out of power for a year, but because

552
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: of massive street protests were forced to hold a new

553
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: election and then the Brazilian Left won that election by

554
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: so much that it couldn't be stolen. So we might

555
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: end up in that situation. Well, yeah, and the last

556
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: question I'll thirty you is in the context of the

557
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: so called pink wave, that's what Central and South America

558
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: in recent years, and there is a real case for that.

559
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you go from Chile to Amelou, Columbia, even Colombia,

560
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: right exactly. I'm curious what you think about that. And

561
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: to your point, which is such an interesting one about

562
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: coups and kind of coups from the West, is that

563
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: it speaks to how the sort of left right wing

564
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: dichotomy in populist movements is flipping in that you'll have

565
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: or in some ways it's the same right, So you'll

566
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: have a Bolsonaro, who or a Georgia Maloney or someone well,

567
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: Maloney's not a good example, but somebody who's actually very

568
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: against the kind of un Davos groups that try to

569
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: push what they see as a globalist agenda. And so

570
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: then your right wing candidates are not good coup candidates,

571
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: right because they don't support the order that people like

572
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,959
Speaker 1: Joe Biden and the Davos class support. So it creates

573
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: friction on that level too. And I wonder if that dynamic,

574
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: how that continues to play out in populism in Central

575
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: and South America. That's a really good point. Yes, If

576
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: these if right wing populists in Central and South America

577
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: take too seriously the kind of anti Davos like anti

578
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: globalist politics, then they're going to forget who put them

579
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: in power. In the first place, which was the GLOBALSS thing,

580
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: and the Davos like the Dullest brothers, Like you can't

581
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: run against the Dulles brothers as a as a as

582
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: a right wing tinpot, tinpot dictator. If it's the dullest

583
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,239
Speaker 1: brothers that are installing you in power, and so that

584
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: I think that's that's that's an interesting point. If if

585
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: Bolsonaro was, you know, playing nicer with the United States

586
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: in the in the way that Maloney is playing nice

587
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 1: with the EU, perhaps you wouldn't have, you know, you,

588
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: perhaps the US would be standing signals like, look, we're

589
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: going to let things shape out. And he recognizes this.

590
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: After the election in November twenty twenty, he was doing

591
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: the whole stop to steal, you know, Trump actually won.

592
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: Biden stole this election, like he was with Trump the

593
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: whole time. After January sixth, he's like, oh, Okay, there's

594
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: a new president's going to be in town. And he

595
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: has been sending all sorts of warm signals towards the

596
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: Biden administration. But it's kind of too little, too late

597
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 1: at this point. And then I guess I'm curious going forward,

598
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 1: how global meddling when you have the I guess the

599
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 1: very real Davos class if their cultural priorities overcome their

600
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: economic priorities, or they can find a way to have

601
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 1: them work in tandem, if they start inter reading on

602
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,880
Speaker 1: behalf of left populists, yeah, we'll see you got to

603
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: be I mean, more clever. But they're absolutely not going

604
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 1: to do that unless they're completely fake left populist, because

605
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 1: right left populists, you know, fundamentally challenge the entire basis

606
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: of the economic inequality and the structure that the Davos

607
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: crowd they should right, right, so they would, so they're not.

608
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: You know, Lula is very good at co opting elements

609
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: of that of that kind of coalition, like getting enough

610
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: of it. When he started out as a kind of

611
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: a radical leftist the union leader, I was not able

612
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: to get to national power until he started compromising. So

613
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: there's this whole Lula is a sellout wing down down

614
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: in Brazil. Although for my podcast this week at the Intercept,

615
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: I interviewed this a Sabrina Fernandez, a kind of Marxist

616
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: leftist who's part of this Marxist leftist coalition that is

617
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: saying Lula, Lula, yeah, might have been a sellout but

618
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: like he's our guy that's gonna like a like a

619
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,280
Speaker 1: popular front that's going to get rid of Bolson Arrow

620
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: Marx identified how the cultural priorities of the you know,

621
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,479
Speaker 1: the wealthy elite, whether it's sex, age, religion, nationality, were

622
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 1: to the benefit the economic benefit of the wealthy and

623
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: the elites. And so a true left populist, I think

624
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: would be out of whack with the Davos class on

625
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: the cultural issues instead of being right. You've got one

626
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: of those in uh in Peru and they're already impeaching

627
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: a bunch of times. Yeah. Right, So but I think

628
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 1: there's there's increasing anything awareness of how those divisions turn

629
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: people basically into cogs in this ridiculous capitalist machine. And

630
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 1: I say that as a conservative, but this is not real.

631
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: This is not real capitalism, not free markets. In the

632
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: same way that you would say that probably about real socialism.

633
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: We vowed to do that one short we didn't. Actually,

634
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 1: this is a great, great transition into the next topic

635
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: about the anti the package of anti trust legislation that

636
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: just passed the House, because Matt Stoller made just a

637
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: fantastic point about this. That's D two. So is this

638
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 1: package of legislation passed the House of Representatives. This is

639
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: from the Hill. It's the so this is from the Hill.

640
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: It says these this package of bills would update filing

641
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: fees for mergers to increase them for larger deals, allow

642
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: state attorneys general to select their venue when enforcing anti

643
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: trust laws, and use the merger notification process to require

644
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: parties to disclose subsidies they received from countries that pose

645
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: a risk to the US. And Matt wrote about that

646
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: over on his sub stack, which you should definitely take

647
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: a look at. But he made this really interesting point

648
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter as well about how Zoelofgren and Jim Jordan,

649
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: we're both opposed to this package. And Jim Jordan is

650
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: someone who has tweeted, you know, break up Facebook, breakup,

651
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 1: someone's completely anti big tech. Zoelofgren was saying that actually

652
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: this gives She invoked January sixth in urging her colleagues

653
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: to vote against this package, saying basically that it gives

654
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: more power to Republicans who want to challenge the content moderation,

655
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: which gets to the underlying issue of how Republicans and

656
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: Democrats really can't agree on tech stuff anymore because Democrats

657
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,399
Speaker 1: want more power to regulate and Republicans want to take

658
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: it away. So beneath the trust, the surface of the

659
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: anti trust consensus is something very different. Now, Mike Lee,

660
00:37:55,560 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, a Heritage Foundation, everyone supported the slate of bills,

661
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: Jim Jordan did not, and republic some Republicans voted against it.

662
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: But it really was an interesting eruption. Yeah, it's it's

663
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: a it's an amazing example of the way that politicians

664
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: on both sides use the culture war to distract from

665
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: what's actually going on. And so let's let's play the clip,

666
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: because you have Zoloftrin tapping her culture war buttons and

667
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 1: then you have Jim Jordan tapping his culture war buttons,

668
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: saying opposite things, but both for the same purpose, which is,

669
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: don't vote for this bill that big tech doesn't want

670
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: you to vote for. Side with side with big tech,

671
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: but for these cultural reasons. So let's let's play that.

672
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: Those those those speeches of speech. Now, content moderation is important.

673
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: We have seen in the January sixth Committee a lot

674
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: of material that has spread lies, that has incided violence,

675
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: and that content should be moderated. It should not be

676
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: subject to a bogus effort by state ags to prevent

677
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: content moderation through the Anti Trust of provision. This bill

678
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: would actually give one hundred and forty million dollars to

679
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: the DOJ so they can work with continue to do

680
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: what they're already doing, work with big tech to censor

681
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: certain information from getting to we the people. And why

682
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: do I say that, because we know what happened just

683
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: a month ago. Mark Zuckerberg said, the FBI come and

684
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 1: told him not to allow this story about Hunter Biden's

685
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: laptop to be on their platform. They gave him the

686
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: old wink wink, Oh, we think this is Russian disinformation,

687
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: which we know it wasn't. So the Democrat says you

688
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: should oppose this bill because of censorship, censorship on as

689
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,400
Speaker 1: she's us it. The Republican says you should oppose this

690
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: bill because of censorship, censorship of how he views it. Now,

691
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: that's how you know they're both lying, because it's completely contradictory.

692
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: But what are they both telling you you to do?

693
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: They're telling you to oppose this bill. Who wants you

694
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: to oppose this bill? Big tech wants you to oppose

695
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: this built just utterly incredible, and it's and this is

696
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: such small potatoes too. This it gives it. It's a

697
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: significant win because it gives new resources to the FTC,

698
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: and it gives new resources to the Anti Trust Division

699
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: of the Department of Justice. And it blocks big Tech

700
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: from being able to take a lawsuit from if you

701
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 1: file it in Texas or Oklahoma or Colorado, big Tech

702
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: likes to yankee to their their favorite judge, say in

703
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: New York or somewhere. It blocks you from being able

704
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: to do that. So it's you know, this is this

705
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: is real stuff. But it's also not the big kind

706
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 1: of clobachar bill. It's in the Senate the Competition the

707
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: Competition Act that would like, actually, you know, come at

708
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: Big Tech in a serious way, and they still threw

709
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: everything they had at it. And we get arguments like

710
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 1: this that, oh, don't do this to big Tech because

711
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: if you do, they're not going to be able to

712
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: censor like we want them to, or they're going to

713
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: do lots of censoring like we don't want them to. Right.

714
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: So culture war, cultural culture war. But just in the

715
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: end side with big Tech, right, the culture war becomes

716
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: this this disguise for anti I mean anti populist you

717
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: could say, or just like pro tech governance like that's

718
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: it's just wearing the culture war as a costume to

719
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 1: distract from the economic reality. And again, Lena Khan, for instance,

720
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: is not conservative, There's no question about it. Lena Khan

721
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: is like the new brand ician like in that field.

722
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: She is on the left, no question about it. But

723
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: again she is advancing the economic interests of a lot

724
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: of republic average Republican voters and a lot of averages. Yeah,

725
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: average Americans who are absolutely being railroaded by an industry that,

726
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: because of consolidation, also has cultural consolidation. And Stoller is

727
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: really good on this, but it's absolutely true that because

728
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: Facebook also owns Instagram, and because Google also owns YouTube,

729
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: that means the world views of the tiny C suite

730
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: class at all of these companies then dictate what constitutes

731
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 1: acceptable speech, what constitutes and to Jordan's point, actually whether

732
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: the Hunter Biden's story should be allowed to see the

733
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 1: light of day on their platform. Well, if they're all

734
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,479
Speaker 1: going to vote for Joe Biden, they're probably all going

735
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: to lean in a certain direction on something like that,

736
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: and they're probably going to listen when the FBI, which

737
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: the left has the strange new respect for or I

738
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 1: should say, the center left has a strange new respect

739
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: for is going to tell them, you know, be on

740
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 1: the lookout. And that's why it makes really no sense

741
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: to me to use it, especially from a right perspective,

742
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: a culture war, a culture war argument to vote against this.

743
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: It is such The American Conservative had a good piece

744
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: referring to it as a quote modest proposal. Even that

745
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: might be an overstatement. I mean, when it comes to

746
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: the serious emergency that is big tech, this is a

747
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: drop in the bucket, and if you can't get on

748
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: board with it, it's I don't know, I don't know

749
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: where we go from here. Yeah, and zoelofgrens aargent was

750
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: such a crazy bank shot. She's saying, we need big

751
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: Tech to be able to do its content moderation free

752
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: of these you know, anti woke Republican state attorneys general,

753
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: but the like. Even if you pretend that she's serious

754
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: about that for a second, the bill is trying to

755
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: stop lawsuits from being taken out of Texas and taken

756
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: to New York the way that a serious anti trust

757
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: piece of litigation was. That's not what happened with the

758
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: one that she's talking about. The one she's talking about

759
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: was the Fifth Circuit, which is down in the Circuit

760
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: Court down in Texas. So like, it doesn't even apply

761
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: to the thing that she claims that it's it's applying

762
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: to just you know, and she represents roughly Stilicon Valley

763
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: Like so you know that's if you step back, you're like, oh, okay,

764
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 1: we see what's going on here. So there are still

765
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 1: elements of this that have to pass the Senate. It's

766
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: not completely over, but but there is support for this

767
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: in the Senate. Uh, very likely. You know, it has

768
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,479
Speaker 1: a shot as long as people keep pressure on. Yeah,

769
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 1: I think it. I think it absolutely has a shot.

770
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: But big Tech is going to pull out all the

771
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: stops even for a quote modest proposal. They're they're going

772
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: to they have plenty of money to throw around to

773
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 1: block even modest proposals. On that note, Ryan, I see

774
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: you're getting your glasses, which means you're you're ready to

775
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: read your the script. No, I'm kidding. Speaking of January sixth,

776
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: actually you have a really interesting monologue today on this

777
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: this book that's coming out in a couple of weeks. Huge,

778
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 1: it's like six it's like six hundred pages, it's actually

779
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: it's very good. If you like kind of congressional drama,

780
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: which I do, I write called it's called Unchecked, The

781
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: Untold Story behind Congress has watched Impeachments of Donald Trump,

782
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: and I got an early copy of it, so I

783
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: have a piece of it that I can I can

784
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: do here before you do that. Does it feel almost

785
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,680
Speaker 1: like Bravo when you're do you like congressional drama for

786
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 1: the same reason that you like the rest? It's the

787
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,320
Speaker 1: same stuff. If it's done right, it definitely taps the

788
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 1: same buttons. Tell us what's in the book, I says,

789
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: January sixth and so. So. History often unfolds through the

790
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: collision of structural forces that operate independently of any specific

791
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: decision or decision maker. But once in a while, a

792
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: real moment of contingency arises, in which a single person

793
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: chooses to choosing between several genuinely viable options within their

794
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: reach can set history on a different course. Now, according

795
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: to the new book Unchecked, the Untold Story behind Congress's

796
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: batched impeachments of Donald Trump, Leading Democrats pushed hard to

797
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: impeach then President Donald Trump the very day of the insurrection,

798
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: but we're beaten back by a reluctant House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi,

799
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: who instead decided to gabble the chamber out of session

800
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: once it had finished its business at hand. Republican tempers

801
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 1: were running so hot against Trump, as documented in the

802
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: new book by Rachel Baide and Karen Demergion, that forcing

803
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 1: them to choose sides in the Senate that week could

804
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: easily have resulted in his impeachment, removal, and disqualification from

805
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 1: any future run for the White House. High ranking Democrats

806
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: wanted to give Republicans that chance, and to give a

807
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: sense of how thirsty for Maga blood Republican senators were.

808
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 1: The book includes a scene in a Senate conference room

809
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: with protesters in the Capitol. Lindsey Graham looked over and

810
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 1: saw the Senate sergeant at arms in the safe room

811
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: with them. Graham yelled at them, what the hell are

812
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: you doing here? Go take back the Senate. You've got guns,

813
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: use them. Graham then called White House Attorney Pat Sippoloni.

814
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: Is it Sipoloni or Cipolone. I don't know. I'm going

815
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 1: to go with Cipolony, and he warned that Republicans would

816
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: remove Trump from office using the twenty fifth Amendment if

817
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: he didn't call off the mob. Now. The first member

818
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: of Congress we know of to begin drafting an article

819
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: of impeachment, David Cicilini, a Rhode Island Democrat, scribbled it

820
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,280
Speaker 1: on scratch paper while locked down in the Rayburn House

821
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: office building. According to the book, Representative Ted Lou because

822
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: of his office's proximity to pipe bombs that had been

823
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: discovered by the way whatever happened to those, he had

824
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: to evacuate, and he came to join Cicilini, where the

825
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: two worked on the impeachment article together in the office,

826
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: the two started lobbying other members of the Judiciary Committee,

827
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: with Lou texting other members they quote, should start drafting

828
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,760
Speaker 1: articles of impeachment now, regardless of what leadership says quote.

829
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: Cicelini reached out to Representatives Jamie Raskin and Joe Negoose,

830
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: and Raskin recommended going for the twenty fifth Amendment, but

831
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: if that didn't work, yes, impeachment. They worked on a

832
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: twenty fifth Amendment letter to Vice President Mike Pence, but

833
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: they kept pushing on impeachment throughout the day. They reached

834
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: out to Judiciary Committee Council Aaron Hiller for help fine

835
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: tuning the impeachment draft. Hiller called his boss, Jerry Nadler

836
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: Chief of staff Amy Rutkin, and told her, quote, I'm

837
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,560
Speaker 1: about to do so something that's completely unauthorized by leadership.

838
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: Should I tell you or not? He told her, and

839
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: she said do it. After hearing about it, Hiller then

840
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: told Cicilini, go find two hundred co sponsors right now

841
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: to get it done. Don't wait for a blessing from leadership. Now.

842
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 1: Ilhan Omar had also been working on an impeachment article

843
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: now because she gets so many death threats, She's one

844
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 1: of the few members not in leadership with her own security,

845
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: and so she was huddled with both parties leaderships and

846
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: Fort McNair during the riot. The aide she brought with

847
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: her drafted an impeachment article that afternoon, and Omar publicly

848
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: called for the House to vote on it that evening.

849
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: Once the capital had been cleared and the House returned

850
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: to finish its business, Cicilini found Stenny Hoyer on the floor. Hoyer,

851
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 1: as majority leader, controls the House floor schedule. Cicelini handed

852
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: Hoyer the impeachment resolution and implored him to allow a

853
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: vote right then and there. He hemmed and he hawed,

854
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: but he passed the request onto Pelosi. Pelosi's staff first

855
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,720
Speaker 1: tried to tell Sicilin there were technical reasons that couldn't

856
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: be done, but then just told him to move on.

857
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: Pelosi decided to gabble. The chamber closed and everybody went home.

858
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: Now there's a saying, if you come for the king,

859
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,879
Speaker 1: you best not miss, because if you miss, the King

860
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: is going to make sure you never come for him again,

861
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: and that nobody thinks it's okay to come for the king.

862
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: Trump came for the king that day and missed, and

863
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: Pelosi and Hoyer just let him walk. The message was clear,

864
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: it's okay to come for the king, or in our case,

865
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 1: to come for democracy. If you hit it, you stay

866
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: in power. If you miss, you live to fight another day,

867
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: and we'll live with the decision Pelosi made that night

868
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: not to hold Trump accountable instantly for the rest of

869
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: our lives. And what I'm curious about from your perspective,

870
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: because you would know this even better looking forward to

871
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: what you got. One of my college jobs was working

872
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: for the dissident feminist author Christina summers as she wrote

873
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: a re release of her early pressient two thousand book

874
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 1: The War Against Boys, men, Christina warned were falling behind

875
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: and the results would not be good for women or

876
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: for society overall. As the women's movement pushed for some

877
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: obviously necessary correctives to American culture, especially in education, the

878
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: system came to be designed in ways that benefited girls,

879
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: but at the expense of men. After not letting us

880
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: vote or open credit cards on our own. Women didn't

881
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: find the plight of boys a terribly sympathetic cause at

882
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: the time. Plus many of the problems were happening in

883
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: real time to kids at very young ages, making it

884
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: super difficult to assess the consequences beyond projections. But now

885
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: the results of this experiment are in, and they aren't good.

886
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: Richard Reeves of the Brookings Institution released his new book

887
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: assessing those results this week in of Boys and Men.

888
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: Crystal and Sager interviewed him here on Breaking Points, and

889
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: I did about an hour with Richard last week over

890
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,239
Speaker 1: on my podcast at The Federalist. David Brooks wrote about

891
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: the book at The New York Times concede I learned

892
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: a lot I didn't know Brooks boiled down this new

893
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 1: information to two points, one that boys are much more

894
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: hindered by challenging environments than girls, and two that policies

895
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: and programs designed to promote social mobility often work for

896
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: women but not men. Those are Brooks's words. Now, those two,

897
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 1: of course go hand in hand. Boys struggle more with,

898
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: for instance, poverty and single parenthood than benefit less from

899
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: the programs designed to help people overcome challenging circumstances. Christina

900
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: showed how this was manifesting in seemingly harmless ways inside

901
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: K through twelve schooling, from curtailing recess and rough and

902
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: tumble play to using emotion based teaching methodology in math

903
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: and science that helps girls but make schools a school

904
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: a little bit harder for boys. Boys end up hating school, underachieving,

905
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: and turning to drugs or crime or other bad habits

906
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 1: and higher numbers. They leave high school in a hole

907
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: that's then hard to dig out of, and then leave

908
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 1: college with debt and go right into a hookup culture

909
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: that disincent devises monogamy into a world where fulfilling work

910
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: is as hard to come by as purpose and meaning

911
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: what a lot of people don't talk about in this

912
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 1: context is sex and dating. But of course these variables

913
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: are very salient. A recent survey that made the rounds

914
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: this week after being covered in Psychology Today, found fifty

915
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: three percent of single men said fear of being creepy

916
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,960
Speaker 1: reduces their likelihood of interacting with women. Now, some stigmas

917
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: like creepiness are obviously healthy, but this shows a widespread,

918
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 1: irrational fear that is seriously throwing a wrench into American communities.

919
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 1: Brooks's Columns column ran alongside another column in The Times

920
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 1: this week, one that asserted, in the headline quote dating

921
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: is broken, Going retro could fix it. This is just

922
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: one in a long long line of recent versions of

923
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 1: the same argument from progressive women that retro norms may

924
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: have been healthier for women. Christine Emba of The Washington

925
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: Post wrote Rethinking Sex. Luise Perry of The New Statesman

926
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: wrote the Case Against the Sexual Revolution. BuzzFeed last year

927
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: of publish a fascinating, articable article about why gen z

928
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: is quote rethinking sex positivity. The Times column published this

929
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: week cited a twenty ten study from the Journal of

930
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: Family Psychology that found quote, couples who waited until marriage

931
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: reported not just less consideration of divorce, but also higher

932
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 1: relationship satisfaction, better communication, and superior sex when compared with

933
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 1: couples who began having sex within a month of their

934
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: first date or before they started dating. The story quoted

935
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,760
Speaker 1: one of the authors of that study, suggesting, quote, rapid

936
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: sexual initiation often creates poor partner selection because intense feelings

937
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: of pleasure and attachment can be confused for true intimacy

938
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: and lasting love with a few caveats. Economist Marina Adshade

939
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: said back in twenty nineteen, when you crunch the numbers quote,

940
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: married people appear to be healthier and live longer than

941
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 1: those who are single, separated, divorced, or widowed. They have

942
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: better mental health, fewer health conditions, and recover faster from illness.

943
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 1: In the past, said ad Shade, studies found that marriage

944
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: provided more health benefits to men than women, but that

945
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: effect is disappearing in more recent studies find pretty similar

946
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: outcomes for men and women. All right, So all of

947
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 1: that said, if men are too afraid of being creepy

948
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,680
Speaker 1: to set that process in motion, women are in big

949
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: trouble too. The left is wrong about the way some

950
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: traditional norms one's built on healthy expressions of human nature

951
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 1: brought about more fulfilling lives. The Right, though, is wrong

952
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: about how gravely the economic hollowing out of the American

953
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: economy exacerbated the destabilization of sex, marriage, and community. Just

954
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: this week, The Times also ran an insane article on

955
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: the death of the starter home, which developers pin on

956
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,800
Speaker 1: red tape that removed financial incentives for them to be built,

957
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: for those homes to be built, and left home ownership

958
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 1: much further out of reach for millennials. Men's wages have

959
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,320
Speaker 1: remained stagnant while women's have grown. In recent decades, TVs

960
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: and phones have gotten cheaper, while homes and healthcare have

961
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: gotten more expensive. Student loan debt is skyrocketing, men are

962
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: suffering disproportionate deaths of despair at higher rates. We're more

963
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: comfortable in a material sense, but less happy, and we're

964
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 1: treating the biological reality of sex differences as something that's

965
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 1: less important when having a healthy recognition of those differences

966
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 1: and even those similarities is actually what would serve everyone

967
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,919
Speaker 1: better instead of policies and norms that try to plug

968
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: a square peg into a round hole and a round

969
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: peg into a square hole. Ryan, we're about to talk

970
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: about an article you wrote, and I believe we have

971
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 1: Katie Helper joining us. This is a very very interesting

972
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: story if you want to tee it up a bit

973
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: because you wrote about it over at the Intercept, that

974
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: would be great close to home for us too. So Katie,

975
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: Katie Halper, as probably most people here know, friend of

976
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 1: this show, former friend of Rising on Monday, was friend

977
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: of the American people, friend of the American people, the

978
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:58,839
Speaker 1: world's people. On Monday, she was co hosting Rising. As

979
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,479
Speaker 1: folks know, you do a radar on the from the left,

980
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:03,840
Speaker 1: a radar from the right, and then you do the

981
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: rest of your segments and then they post it and

982
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: move on. If anybody watched Rising Money, they noticed that

983
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: there was only a radar from the right, not one

984
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: from the left. Turned out that she had done hers

985
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: on a segment very similar to it was on the

986
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 1: same topic that we had done one, you know, very recently,

987
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: which was the controversy around Rashida Talib saying that you

988
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:29,399
Speaker 1: can't be progressive and support Israel's apartheid government. Katie took

989
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: it actually an even deeper look at the question of

990
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,399
Speaker 1: whether Israel qualifies as an apartheid government than I did

991
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 1: last week in my what we don't call them radars anymore.

992
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: We call them monologues, counterpoints, what we talk, we talk

993
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: at you, my rants, and they overt rising. Paused refused

994
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: to run the radar, and just recently was she was

995
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: told that not only are they not going to write it,

996
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: but she's not welcome back. And so we're going to

997
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: be joined by Katie Helper to tell the tell the

998
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 1: story on this in just a moment, and we are

999
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 1: in fact joined by friend of the show, Katie Helper. Now, Katie,

1000
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thanks, thanks for having me and

1001
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: so and so Katie. Also send send James producer James,

1002
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: a couple of links, send them, send them the video.

1003
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: Tell people where they can go and watch your your

1004
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: full video that you've produced, and we'll and we'll make

1005
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: sure that we put that in the in the links

1006
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: at the bottom as well. Great. Yeah, we're not going

1007
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: to do a screening party right now. Well we don't

1008
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: quite have the tech capacity to do the screening party yet,

1009
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: but people can. Yeah, yeah, it's right now. It's at

1010
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: Breakthrough News. Uh, their YouTube channel. It'll be up at

1011
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 1: my channel shortly as well. YouTube dot com slash the

1012
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: Katie Helper Show, but definitely check out Breakthrough News. I

1013
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 1: want to make sure that they get, you know, a

1014
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: lot of eyes and credit. And then I did something

1015
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash the Katie Helper Show as well,

1016
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: where I just kind of did a little explanation not

1017
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: too detailed about what happened and so tell us. So

1018
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: so Monday, you showed up, you co hosted the show

1019
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: in the studio, you submitted your radar. What happened next?

1020
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: So I mean I submitted it, I guess the night before,

1021
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: although as you guys probably know, it's not I mean

1022
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: it's not even a submission. I mean, you just do

1023
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: it and ostensibly, unless you're reading probably like Nazi propaganda,

1024
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,320
Speaker 1: that you just get the right to do it. But

1025
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: I you know, people saw that it was called you know,

1026
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: apartheid exists, you know, yes, Israel does have apartheid. Something

1027
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: like that, Yes, apartheid exists in Israel. This was not

1028
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: a piece that you couldn't tell was about Israeli apartheid.

1029
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: It was a piece that clearly made the argument that

1030
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: there was an apartheid system in Israel. I delivered it.

1031
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: I think it went well. I like to think it

1032
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: went well. I delivered it. I did some more hosting.

1033
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: There was this interesting moment, which apparently isn't that unprecedented,

1034
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: where I, you know, one of the co hosts then

1035
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: read a pickup where he kind of reiterated something that

1036
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: Jonathan green Blatt had said, Jonathan green Blatt of the

1037
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 1: Anti Defamation League of the ADL. And then when I left,

1038
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: I had to run off to do another show because

1039
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 1: I had to do a Useful Idiots taping and I

1040
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: got a call and it was very apologetic, and I

1041
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: said this in my video, and I want to make

1042
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 1: sure people know that the producers I was working with

1043
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 1: were really were like nothing but supportive. They wanted, oh

1044
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: I don't get them fired. By saying that they wanted

1045
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: their higher up to do the right thing, maybe that

1046
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: makes you firable in corporate media. I think that's a

1047
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,720
Speaker 1: really important point though, Okay, because I was going to

1048
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: ask you, and that was our experience. Like when we

1049
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: submitted radars, I never had one that was pushed back.

1050
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: I don't think you ever had one that was just

1051
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: the telepropter. Yeah, it's not really a submission, yeah exactly,

1052
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 1: And the producers know that this is part of what

1053
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:10,480
Speaker 1: makes the show great that you have this perspective that,

1054
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 1: by the way, is like fairly mainstream left perspective. I

1055
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 1: mean you have Amnesty internationals, it's basically international's perspective. And

1056
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 1: then Katie, what was your sense when you have everybody

1057
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: working on the show, again, this was our experience. They're great,

1058
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: they understand this makes what this makes the show great.

1059
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: It got moved up the chain of command, and that's

1060
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: where the problem started to become very very clear. What

1061
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: was your experience as that moved up the chain fright.

1062
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: So I was talking to producers like basically Monday through

1063
01:00:42,440 --> 01:00:44,840
Speaker 1: Wednesday about trying to figure out a way to make

1064
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 1: sure it would get on air again. They were really supportive,

1065
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 1: and then I got an email from Bob. Sorry, I

1066
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: got a phone call from Bob Quzach who in non

1067
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: certain terms told me not going to run it, not

1068
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: going to run the piece, which kind of shocked me

1069
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: just because I wasn't expecting the phone call, and I just,

1070
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I felt very chastised and I kind

1071
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:13,800
Speaker 1: of put in my place, which is fine. I guess

1072
01:01:13,800 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: they have the right to do that. It kind of

1073
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 1: undermines their stick of being independent minded and not having

1074
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: talking points or not having I mean, their stick is

1075
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: that you don't have to stay within this certain lane.

1076
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: Right you're allowed to say things both on the left

1077
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: and on the right that you're not allowed to say

1078
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: in most corporate media. So anyway, I got the call

1079
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: from him, and then I not to get too into

1080
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: like the nitty gritty of how this show works, but

1081
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: I was then because I was told that you can't

1082
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: do Israel opinion pieces, but you could do segments. And

1083
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: I go on the show every week to do a segment.

1084
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: So I was like, okay, so can I do this

1085
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:55,040
Speaker 1: for my segment tomorrow? And I asked the producers that,

1086
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 1: and then I was directed to an email that I

1087
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: got from an executive there who told me and know

1088
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: on certain terms, I wasn't needed, My services were no

1089
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 1: longer needed. And that's an executive at news Nation, or

1090
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: or as at not NewsNation, at Nextstar not role okay,

1091
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: because The Hill is owned by this big media company

1092
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: Next Star, which recently, by the way, I hired Chris

1093
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 1: Cuomo to a host of show on News Nation. But

1094
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: that but Katie's was a bridge too far for Next Star. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,

1095
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: if only I had covered up my I'm an only child,

1096
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: so sadly I didn't have the chance to cover up

1097
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: the crimes of my brother. Uh, and you know, commit

1098
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: a total uh engage in a total uh conflict of

1099
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: interest and also you know, probably grab a woman's ass

1100
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,480
Speaker 1: at a party and engage in sexual harassment. But no,

1101
01:02:43,560 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: if only I'd done that, I would have gotten my

1102
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: own show, I guess. But yeah, so then I got

1103
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 1: that email, you know which, and that really shocked me.

1104
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: I have to admit I just didn't think I could

1105
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: read that. Kay, I read it. I haven't here, she writes,

1106
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: we wanted to let you know that we will not

1107
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,480
Speaker 1: be needing you to appear on Rising tomorrow. Am. Please

1108
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 1: feel free to submit any unpaid invoices for your work

1109
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 1: on Rising. We wish you all the best. And also

1110
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: Gary Weightman, who's the chief communications officer for Next Start.

1111
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: He declined to comment for the story for the intercept

1112
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: and also presumably is declining to comment for this segment

1113
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 1: as well. So, yeah, so you got that email where

1114
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: you're saying, okay, well let's do it. Let's do this

1115
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: as a segment, and then a top executive rights actually

1116
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: there's not going to be a segment. Send us all

1117
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: your invoices and we wish you all the best, right,

1118
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: And I've been doing this these segments for three years.

1119
01:03:39,520 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: I mean I did it when Crystal and Saga were

1120
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 1: at The Hill, and I did it during this reiteration

1121
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 1: which you both were part of, obviously, and I really did.

1122
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: The thing I appreciate about The Hill was that you

1123
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 1: could say things that were taboo and other places and

1124
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,160
Speaker 1: other corporate news. And you know, I knew that there

1125
01:03:57,160 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: are a lot of things that were said on that

1126
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 1: show that I disagreed with, but again, I was the shtick.

1127
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 1: It was like someone from the left, someone from the right.

1128
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:10,080
Speaker 1: And seeing that the kind of censorship and cowardice I

1129
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: would say around issues that exists in so much corporate media,

1130
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:18,200
Speaker 1: seeing that it existed at The Hill, which kind of

1131
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: prides itself for being outside of that censorship, was really depressing.

1132
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 1: And it felt, you know, I'd love to be on

1133
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: your show and be like, but I'm I'm gonna, you know,

1134
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: get back at these people, or I'm gonna persevere and

1135
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 1: do my own thing, and I am gonna obviously you

1136
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 1: can find my stuff at YouTube dot com. Plush the

1137
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: Gadie Helper Show at Useful Idiots. You can join my Patreon,

1138
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 1: Patreon dot complush the Katty Helper Show. But right now

1139
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm just to be honest. I mean, it's just disappointing

1140
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: at saddening, and it's infuriating and it's frustrating, and you

1141
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 1: just feel very powerless. Now the good thing again is

1142
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,840
Speaker 1: like the silver lining is that I filmed this video

1143
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: with Breakthrough News, which is an actually independent, actually independent

1144
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: media and so because I was really determined to get

1145
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 1: this out there, like I did, not like they could

1146
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 1: silence me at the Hill and they could fire me,

1147
01:05:01,400 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: but I wanted to make sure that this argument got

1148
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 1: out there, which was, you know, basically I defend Rashida's

1149
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 1: leeb from the typical attacks that she gets. I called

1150
01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: out ADL for I think, just for saying that it's

1151
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 1: Israel it's not an apartheid state. I mean, it's just okay,

1152
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: you can say that. But unfortunately, not only does Amnesty

1153
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 1: International Human Rights Watch say that it's apartheid. Not only

1154
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: do obviously Palestinians say it's apartheid. Not only obviously do

1155
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: Palestinian human rights organizations say that, but you have the

1156
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: Israeli and the Israeli Jews, the Israeli Jews at Beth

1157
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,600
Speaker 1: Selim say it's apartheid, and I say that, And I

1158
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 1: mean this is another issue kind of like the way

1159
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: you're given some protection when you're Jewish, like I'll be

1160
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: called a self loathing Jew as opposed to an anti

1161
01:05:51,360 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: semi and self loading Jew. You mean that. Look, you

1162
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: can get fired obviously over saying this, but there is

1163
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: some relative privilege you get within this conversation if you're Jewish.

1164
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: I think, like I feel more comfortable talking about this

1165
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:05,880
Speaker 1: stuff than probably other people do. And of course this

1166
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 1: is a brings up a larger issue of how people

1167
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: are not allowed to report on this. I mean, obviously,

1168
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,560
Speaker 1: Scherene abu Aclay is someone who literally was killed because

1169
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 1: she was reporting on this issue. And I'm not comparing

1170
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: myself at all, like I'm like doing op ed pieces

1171
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: from the comfort of my own home. She was there

1172
01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: on the ground, and ironically I was able to talk

1173
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: about Sharene abou Aclay on the hill. That was one

1174
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: of the things I appreciated that I could talk about

1175
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: that and I could. I even said that Israel lied,

1176
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 1: which I guess was controversial. But it's not because we

1177
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 1: know they lied because they said that they had foot

1178
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: they released footage of a Palestinian shooting, pretending that that

1179
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: was Serina a Blacklaan, and then it was revealed that wasn't.

1180
01:06:49,160 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: It was physically impossible from that alley for that bullet,

1181
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 1: you know. So again that was so refreshing, Like I

1182
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 1: really appreciate that I could sit there wearing like corporate

1183
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: medium make up up and corporate media outfits and have

1184
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: all the like high production value that goes into corporate media.

1185
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 1: And I think it's really powerful to hear someone say

1186
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: israelied they killed Sheery and Abu Blackley. It's very powerful

1187
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:16,880
Speaker 1: to hear that and see that in that context as

1188
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:19,439
Speaker 1: opposed to just you know, me from my own home

1189
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: saying it. And I really do think that there was

1190
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 1: a value in reaching people in that way. And I

1191
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: think that that's what the Hill provides is a kind

1192
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:30,760
Speaker 1: of air of professionalism that often because the Left doesn't

1193
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: have huge funders the way the rights does, I mean,

1194
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 1: we don't see this as much on the left. Yeah,

1195
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: it's it's really interesting that when you push you find

1196
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,120
Speaker 1: you discover the corporate third rails and you have to

1197
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:44,520
Speaker 1: push to do it. But this is like just such

1198
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: a good example of that. And you know, Katie, like again,

1199
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: I disagree with the argument, but it's a it's a

1200
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: reasonable argument, and it's within the bounds of reasonable debate.

1201
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: And when you weaponize identity politics to stifle it, which

1202
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,440
Speaker 1: I'm assuming is what the Hill or I shouldn't even

1203
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: say that Hill, it sounds like it was Next Star

1204
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: was doing going in that direction. Then you're again, this

1205
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: is going to fester. It's not going to heal anything.

1206
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: It makes everything faster, it makes everything worse, and it's

1207
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 1: it's a good example of like this is just profoundly,

1208
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 1: profoundly sad, and yeah, it is. It's ridiculous. I just

1209
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: want to say also some of the people who I

1210
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:24,479
Speaker 1: and I encourage people to watch the video, which is

1211
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: again I breakthrough News and will then also be at

1212
01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 1: the Helper Show. But I quote Israeli politicians who say

1213
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 1: it's apartheid. I mean, an interesting thing we could do

1214
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 1: a whole show about this is that israelis tend to

1215
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: be much more honest about this than Americans who are

1216
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 1: defending Israel. Sometimes they're honest about it in a very

1217
01:08:43,880 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: kind of crude way like they don't care, like sure,

1218
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,599
Speaker 1: Like you have Benny Morris, who was this historian who

1219
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,640
Speaker 1: not to get too into the weeds of Israeli historiography,

1220
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 1: but he's someone he's part of this movement called the

1221
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:57,960
Speaker 1: New Historians of Israel, and they really they challenge the

1222
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: Zionist narrative of history and of the founding of Israel.

1223
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: And he wrote this essential book, this really seminal work

1224
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: called nineteen forty eight, and it documents meticulously the ethnic

1225
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:11,759
Speaker 1: lensing that was the basis of the foundation of Israel.

1226
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: And he over the years and he was of course

1227
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,320
Speaker 1: persona on Grada because of that book, and over the

1228
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 1: years he's gotten much more conservative and very right wing

1229
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 1: and hawkers and people are like, Benny Morris, you documented

1230
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,839
Speaker 1: that there was ethnic cleansing, and now you want Israel

1231
01:09:25,880 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: to like bomb Iran. How do you reconcile those two things?

1232
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, there was ethnic clensing, and

1233
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: if they had been more ethnic cleansing, we wouldn't have

1234
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: a problem today, which is just like, I appreciate that honesty, right,

1235
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:41,679
Speaker 1: I find it a this disturbing idea that to wish

1236
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:43,720
Speaker 1: that there had been more ethnic leansing, but at least

1237
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: he admits the facts on the ground, right, and high

1238
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 1: profile figures too. The previous two prime ministers not Tlly

1239
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:53,599
Speaker 1: Bennett and Benjamin Nt Yeah, who both publicly said they're

1240
01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 1: not for a two state solution anymore, Like that's the

1241
01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,640
Speaker 1: that's their public posture. But if you said that in

1242
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,720
Speaker 1: the United United States, right, I feel like that's outrageous.

1243
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,240
Speaker 1: How could you possibly say that? But they're not. Like

1244
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 1: now eu laped he still pretends he's supportive of a

1245
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: two state solution, supports a Palestinian state, but because he

1246
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: kind of represents a more centris center, right, you know,

1247
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: flank of it. But back in the United States, if

1248
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: you said Donald support a Palestinian state, I don't support

1249
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:21,960
Speaker 1: two states solutions and be like that's insane, You're crazy,

1250
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: Like that's right, right, So the divorce between the two

1251
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 1: discourses is fascinating. Yeah, it is fascinating. I think it's

1252
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 1: because we see people in the United States struggle to

1253
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: trying to fit in justifying Israel the way it exists

1254
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:40,479
Speaker 1: and their government with a more kind of human rights. See,

1255
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:42,400
Speaker 1: it's just a bad look in the United States in

1256
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 1: a way that it's not at all in Israel because

1257
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 1: it's being run by an apartheid government. I mean, I speak.

1258
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to how apartheid ish it is

1259
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,519
Speaker 1: that they don't even have to cover. And what's interesting

1260
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:54,679
Speaker 1: is that people I quote in the video, I quote

1261
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:59,440
Speaker 1: like literally a dozen I think, combined former Israeli officials

1262
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,640
Speaker 1: and former Israeli prime ministers who either say we have

1263
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 1: apartheid or say we're going to have apartheid if the

1264
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:08,559
Speaker 1: two state solution collapses. There's clearly no viable two state

1265
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,720
Speaker 1: solution right now, and so that you know, definitionally they're

1266
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 1: they're existing in a part tid state. But that's the thing.

1267
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 1: And Emily, you brought up identity politics. What's so interesting

1268
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: is like I'm Jewish, Yeah, and you right away you

1269
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: invoked that in the monologue. When I was reading the transcript,

1270
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,439
Speaker 1: I was like, she starts by saying that you were

1271
01:11:27,439 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 1: disappointed as a Jewish person. Yeah, you know, I think

1272
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 1: I may have cut that out from the top. So

1273
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: I had that originally, and then I think while I

1274
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: was reading it, I've decided to put it later in,

1275
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 1: So I should you guys can update that or whatever,

1276
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,639
Speaker 1: but I put it in later and I point out,

1277
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 1: I say, as I'm Jewish, I was born in New

1278
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 1: York City. My family is from the well or fourth

1279
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 1: generations in New Yorkers. Not to brag, but my family

1280
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:56,360
Speaker 1: before that was from Eastern Europe. And I could today,

1281
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: I could, today, right now, decide to move to Israel.

1282
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: I could get it job, I could build a home,

1283
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: I could walk around freely, and so could Jonathan Green

1284
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 1: green Blatt from the ADL, so could Jake Tapper, who

1285
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 1: does the segment about Rashida's leave that I react to.

1286
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:15,759
Speaker 1: All of us would be fine, and someone like Rashida's

1287
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 1: leave can't even go back to her family home in

1288
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:22,759
Speaker 1: what is now Israel. They've borrowed her from visiting. Yeah,

1289
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 1: so again, I really, I'm just I'm just really it's

1290
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 1: it's you know again, I'd like to be more, feel

1291
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,120
Speaker 1: like more. Yeah, I'm free now. I can say whatever

1292
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: I want, and that's true, but you know, it is

1293
01:12:34,520 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 1: depressing that you can't do that at certain places, especially

1294
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: places that kind of like to go against cancel culture,

1295
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 1: like to go against censorship, Like you know, how much

1296
01:12:44,920 --> 01:12:47,800
Speaker 1: is that? How sincere are you in your opposition to

1297
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: censorship and cancel culture? If you're perpetuating it yourself, right, Yeah.

1298
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: If there's one next our property that they should know

1299
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,320
Speaker 1: not to mess with in this sense, it would be rising.

1300
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: So it's just really really sad, and I remember we

1301
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:03,800
Speaker 1: had some of those issues and they were like, well,

1302
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: should we give this air time? We're always air on

1303
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: the side of absolutely, Eric, let the debate happen exactly.

1304
01:13:10,479 --> 01:13:12,640
Speaker 1: That's the thing. Jonathan Green Black can come on the

1305
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: hill and make his argument. I'd be happy to be him.

1306
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:20,759
Speaker 1: Or they could do come yeah, yeah, yeah, are stupid,

1307
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,120
Speaker 1: Like we don't need to treat viewers like children like

1308
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 1: they're They're as smart as any executive at Next Star.

1309
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: They can listen to a debate and come out with

1310
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: an opinion. That's That's what also scares me and depresses

1311
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 1: me is that they were comfortable enough firing me for

1312
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:38,760
Speaker 1: trying to get this story on air, Like they don't

1313
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: they're not afraid that this would come out. That's what's

1314
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 1: so disturbing to me, Like, don't you just for the

1315
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 1: the optics of it and not want to make it

1316
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: look like you fired someone for making a video which

1317
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,800
Speaker 1: made the arguments that are made by Amnesy International Human

1318
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:56,559
Speaker 1: Rights to watch the Israeli human rights organization bet Selim

1319
01:13:56,880 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: and countless Israeli officials, including former prime ministers. That might

1320
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 1: be the most demoralizing part that they just care and

1321
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: they're not going to face any consequences. Like I'm sure

1322
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,640
Speaker 1: their donors are happy. I'm sure that whoever. And then

1323
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: another thing is as a Jew, can I just be

1324
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,240
Speaker 1: honest as a Jew, I really don't like when things

1325
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,720
Speaker 1: perpetuate the stereotype that like, you can't talk about this

1326
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 1: because people are gonna get mad and certain people control

1327
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 1: the media. And I'm not saying that's true at all.

1328
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: And you got a lot of the great thing is

1329
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:27,640
Speaker 1: you got a bunch of Christian Zionists out there. So

1330
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 1: that's a great thing because then you can say you

1331
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: can criticize it with the Christian Zionist Yeah, right, exactly.

1332
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 1: But this is not a good look for anyone. I mean,

1333
01:14:36,080 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 1: and I again, as a Jew, I'm really offended. What

1334
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:41,760
Speaker 1: about my like my free speech as a Jewish person,

1335
01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:43,640
Speaker 1: I'm just not allowed to talk about this in a

1336
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:47,920
Speaker 1: way that goes against certain narratives. No, you're a big

1337
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 1: at Katie. In fact, I'm a self I've internalized I've

1338
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,120
Speaker 1: internalized anti Semitism is what it is. I'm a self

1339
01:14:53,160 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: living Jew and I also want to say that, like,

1340
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:56,800
Speaker 1: I just want to give such a shout out to

1341
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:00,640
Speaker 1: people like Ali Abu Nima at Electronic and def and

1342
01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,600
Speaker 1: the people at Mondo Weiss and the people on the

1343
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:07,240
Speaker 1: ground in Palestine and Israel who are reporting on this stuff,

1344
01:15:07,280 --> 01:15:10,519
Speaker 1: who face so many challenges and they do great work

1345
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:13,640
Speaker 1: and everyone should check that out. Well, Katie, you know

1346
01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 1: what you what you've done this week is not without

1347
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: some personal sacrifice, even if it's not you know, on

1348
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:22,040
Speaker 1: the scale of you know, some of the people who

1349
01:15:22,040 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 1: are on the ground in Palestine. But we don't need

1350
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:25,960
Speaker 1: to I don't think we need to compare it. I

1351
01:15:25,960 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 1: think it was courageous for you to come forward, and

1352
01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:31,800
Speaker 1: we really appreciate you coming on here to tell us,

1353
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 1: tell us the story. Thank you and happy young Kaporn, Russiashana,

1354
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you so much. I know you guys

1355
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:46,439
Speaker 1: celebrate there you go. Katie as always one of one

1356
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: of my favorite people to talk to. Indeed, we so

1357
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 1: appreciate Katie helper and Katie's willingness not to give them

1358
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 1: and that's the good news. There are shows like this,

1359
01:15:56,320 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: and that's the importance of what Crystal and Sager has

1360
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:00,080
Speaker 1: done and what all the viewers have helped Crystal and

1361
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: Sacer do. That like that, that Katie can have this

1362
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 1: issue with Next Star and come here and tell the

1363
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:11,600
Speaker 1: true story and go to break Through News, can go

1364
01:16:11,680 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 1: to all of these other channels and tell the story

1365
01:16:13,400 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 1: and get it out to as many people as possible.

1366
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: That is made possible by what the amazing viewers and

1367
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:22,800
Speaker 1: listeners here have have helped Crystal and Soccer build. It's

1368
01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,639
Speaker 1: just incredibly important. That's part of what drew us here too, Yeah,

1369
01:16:26,680 --> 01:16:28,800
Speaker 1: for sure, and it's what I'll draw us here on

1370
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 1: Wednesday next week, so there will be no Friday Counters

1371
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: or we'll do a Friday counter Points on Wednesday. Yeah, yeah,

1372
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,200
Speaker 1: she'll be Friday counter TVD Vibe tv D. Yeah, there

1373
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: certainly will be a Friday Vibe because we're both heading

1374
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:45,680
Speaker 1: out on trips right and then after that we'll be

1375
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 1: back to the regularly scheduled Fridays, your regularly scheduled programming.

1376
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:52,800
Speaker 1: That's right, everybody, have a great weekend. Talk to you soon.