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Speaker 1: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a

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Speaker 1: crustacean animal like a crab inside a heart shirrel, it

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Speaker 1: can't grow. It has to mold and make yourself very

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to be able to grow. A tree doesn't grow

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Speaker 1: where it's hard and thick, does it. It goes where

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Speaker 1: it's soft and green and vulnerable. So vulnerability is absolutely

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Speaker 1: essential for growth. And for vulnerability, you gotta let go

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Speaker 1: of those defenses such as being right.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one

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Speaker 2: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every

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Speaker 2: one of you that come back every week to listen, learn,

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Speaker 2: and grow. And I'm so excited to be talking to

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Speaker 2: you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight

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Speaker 2: Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait to

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Speaker 2: share it with you. I am so so excited for

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Speaker 2: you to read this book, for you to listen to

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Speaker 2: this book. I read the audiobook. If you haven't got

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Speaker 2: it already, make sure you go to eight Rules of

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Speaker 2: Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep,

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Speaker 2: or let go of love. So if you've got friends

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Speaker 2: that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make

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Speaker 2: sure you grab this book, and I'd love to invite

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Speaker 2: you to come and see me for my global tour

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Speaker 2: Love Rules. Go to jshadytour dot com to learn more

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Speaker 2: information about tickets, VIP experiences, and more. I can't wait

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Speaker 2: to see you this year. Now. I know that if

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Speaker 2: you're listening right now, you're here because you want to

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Speaker 2: improve your mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual wellbeing. I know

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Speaker 2: that you're trying to heal from trauma, from stress, from pressure.

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Speaker 2: You're trying to heal challenges you experienced early in childhood

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Speaker 2: or ones that you're going through today. And it's my job,

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Speaker 2: and it's my duty, and it's my honor and joy

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Speaker 2: to introduce you to incredible people that I believe have answers,

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Speaker 2: have insights, have helpful approaches to navigating the challenges all experience.

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Speaker 2: And today's guest is someone I have been so excited

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Speaker 2: to speak to you for a long time on on purpose.

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Speaker 2: I hope this is not just his only time on

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Speaker 2: the show. I hope this starts to become a regular

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Speaker 2: guest on the show. I'm talking about none other than

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Speaker 2: doctor Gabor Mattei, who's a celebrated speaker and best selling

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Speaker 2: author he's highly sought after for his expertise on a

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Speaker 2: range of topics such as addiction, stress, and childhood development.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Mattey has written several best selling books, including the

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Speaker 2: award winning in the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, Close Encounters

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Speaker 2: with Addiction When the Body Says No, The Cost of

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Speaker 2: Hidden Stress and Scattered Minds, The Origins and Healing of

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Speaker 2: Attention deficit Disorder. Now today we're talking about his new

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Speaker 2: book called The Myth of Normal Trauma, Illness and Healing

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Speaker 2: in a Toxic Culture, and we have the link to

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Speaker 2: this in the notes. I want you to go and

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Speaker 2: order this book right now. It is going to blow

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Speaker 2: your mind. The insight of this individual about what we're

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Speaker 2: going through as a culture and a society are going

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Speaker 2: to be really powerful. So the book is called The

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Speaker 2: Myth of Normal Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture.

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Speaker 2: Please welcome to the show. Dr Gabbo matte Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much for being here.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I love sitting down with people who are deeply immersed

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Speaker 2: and obsessed with ideas and observing human behavior. I admire obsession,

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Speaker 2: deeply in admiration deeply, and I admire the ability to

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Speaker 2: sit with something for a long enough time. But I

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Speaker 2: want to start off broad and I want to move

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Speaker 2: in deeper. And I think this is a question that

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Speaker 2: me and my friends often talk about. I think we

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Speaker 2: hear the word trauma more often these days. Yes, it's

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Speaker 2: thrown around sometimes, sometimes it's used effectively. Sometimes it's used

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Speaker 2: in conversation around things that some people would perceive as

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Speaker 2: small and insignificant. Sometimes it's used to describe life defining things.

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Speaker 2: In your words, how would you describe trauma? And why

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Speaker 2: is it so misunderstood even though it's so widespread.

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Speaker 1: It's a deep question because, on the one hand, trauma

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Speaker 1: is sometimes us somewhat loosely and promiscuously to refer to

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Speaker 1: things that are not traumatic. So people will have a

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Speaker 1: difficult experience and say I was traumatized. No, they weren't.

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Speaker 1: Did you see a difficult experience? And as one of

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Speaker 1: my colleagues points out, all trauma is stressful, but not

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Speaker 1: every stress is traumatic, So sometimes people use the word

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Speaker 1: to refer to difficult experiences, which is not the same

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Speaker 1: as being traumatized. Not. On the other hand, where it

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Speaker 1: really matters, which is in the area of health that

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Speaker 1: you and I are both concerned in, whether it's physical

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Speaker 1: or mental health. Trauma is not understood nearly enough or

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Speaker 1: use nearly enough, so that to my mind, a lot

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Speaker 1: of conditions of mind and body are actually very much

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Speaker 1: trauma related without the healing profession, particularly the medical profession,

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Speaker 1: actually recognizing it. So trauma is it comes to a

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Speaker 1: Greek word for wounding. Trauma is a wound. It's a

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Speaker 1: psychic wound that leaves a scar. It leaves an imprint

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Speaker 1: in your nervous system and your body, in your psyche,

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Speaker 1: and then shows up in multiple ways that are not

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Speaker 1: helpful to you later on. So in its basic sense,

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Speaker 1: trauma is a psychic wound. And if you look at

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Speaker 1: the nature of a wound, on the one hand, if

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Speaker 1: it's raw and open, it really hurts. So when somebody

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Speaker 1: touches that wound that you sustained a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: but it hasn't healed yet, you'll react like you're just

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Speaker 1: being tormented all over again. This happens in relationships all

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Speaker 1: the time. On the other hand, a wounds scar over,

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Speaker 1: and the scar tissue has certain features. It's very hard,

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Speaker 1: it's rigid, so it's not flexible, so people tend to

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Speaker 1: be rigid when they traumata. It also doesn't grow, so

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Speaker 1: trauma very often stops emotional growth and development. So on

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Speaker 1: one that is very raw and painful. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: it's even lacks sensation because cartishoe doesn't have nervings in it.

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Speaker 1: So trauma then just to finish, is not what happened

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Speaker 1: to you. So trauma is not the difficult incidents like

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Speaker 1: trauma's not the war. It's not the in my case,

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Speaker 1: the Second More War when I was born, or what

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Speaker 1: happened to me. Trauma is not the abuse that people experienced.

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Speaker 1: Trauma's not the pain that they felt. Trauma is the

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Speaker 1: wound that they sustained as a result. So the trauma wasn't,

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Speaker 1: for example, the sexual abuse, Trauma was the wound that

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Speaker 1: the person sustained as a result of it been abused.

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Speaker 1: That's the good news, Jay, because if trauma is the

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Speaker 1: wound that be sustained, it can be healed at any time.

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Speaker 1: If trauma is what happened to me seventy five years

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Speaker 1: ago or seventy eight years ago, it happened, it never

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Speaker 1: not will have happened. The partition of India wounded a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, but it never would It'll never not

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Speaker 1: have happened. But if the wound is what happened to people,

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Speaker 1: inside is the result that can be healed.

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Speaker 2: That's probably the best differentiated that I've heard. And you're right,

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Speaker 2: it is good news because it means we can heal it.

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Speaker 2: Exactly what do you think is the biggest Going the

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Speaker 2: opposite way, we're talking about a wound, and I want

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Speaker 2: to come back to that, but going the opposite way,

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Speaker 2: how would you then define healing, because that's another word

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Speaker 2: like trauma that is also just everywhere now right self healing,

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Speaker 2: healing from this, healing from that. I think healing is

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Speaker 2: such an interesting concept in and of itself, which again

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Speaker 2: is rarely defined or made clear to us, and from

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Speaker 2: your studies, I would love to hear your thoughts in

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Speaker 2: the same way as you did for trauma. Is what

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Speaker 2: is healing?

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Speaker 1: Sure? So you mentioned to me that you spent some

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Speaker 1: time in my homeland of Hungary, where I was born,

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Speaker 1: and the Hungarian word for health actually begins with the

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Speaker 1: word for wholeness, so health literally means wholeness, and the

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Speaker 1: English word for healing and health also come from an

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Speaker 1: animal Saxon origin, meaning wholeness. So for some reason, languages

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Speaker 1: internationally have intuited the sense of healing, which is a

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Speaker 1: sense of completion and wholeness. Now, what trauma does is

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Speaker 1: it disconnects us. It splits us off from our true

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Speaker 1: self and disconnects us from our emotions, even from our bodies.

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Speaker 1: So that if that disconnection is the essence of trauma,

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Speaker 1: then the healing is that coming together of the self

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Speaker 1: to become a whole again. And healing is often used

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Speaker 1: synonymously with cure. Fair enough, but strange enough in my view,

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Speaker 1: and not just in my view, people can be cured

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Speaker 1: from an illness without becoming whole, without healing. People sometimes

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Speaker 1: also be it could become healed without being cured. So,

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Speaker 1: in essence, healing is not the absence of a physical illness,

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Speaker 1: but it's the integrity of a person who's no longer

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Speaker 1: split off for themselves.

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Speaker 2: I think what we find is that trauma is so,

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Speaker 2: as you said, a wound that is long lasting. It

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Speaker 2: can often be that way, but healing is a process

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Speaker 2: that we want to happen now or today or tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: I'm intrigued by how does time. We've always said time

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Speaker 2: will heal, right, Like that's a cliche.

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Speaker 1: It won't yeah, right, right.

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Speaker 2: So let's go back to the wound and talk about

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Speaker 2: is there any relationship between time and wounds or unhealed wounds,

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Speaker 2: and what is that relationship? How is that wound being

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Speaker 2: formed internally? As you said, trauma is not what happens

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Speaker 2: to you, it's what happens inside of you. That which

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Speaker 2: is happening inside of you. What is happening with that

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Speaker 2: wound over time when it's left.

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Speaker 1: What happens is that it maybe lie dormant for a

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Speaker 1: long time, and then something occurs that touches it. It's

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Speaker 1: when we talk about people being triggered. For example, something

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Speaker 1: touches an un wound inside you and you react You've

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Speaker 1: just been wounded for the first time. And certainly I

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Speaker 1: can tell you that's been the case for me, for example,

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Speaker 1: my marriage relationship. Is that the unhealed wounds. You may

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Speaker 1: think you've gone past them, but then something will happen

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Speaker 1: that touches that wound and you react like you're being

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Speaker 1: tormented all over again for the first time. And time

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Speaker 1: does not automatic to heal. Time maybe scars it over time,

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Speaker 1: maybe makes it less available to immediate memory. But should

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Speaker 1: something happen to evoke it, it's going to show up

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Speaker 1: in its full painful impact until you do some work

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Speaker 1: to heal. Time by itself does not heal, not, not spontaneously,

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Speaker 1: not automatically.

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Speaker 2: How do we covered those? Because I feel that and

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Speaker 2: maybe this is something to address, it's that at least.

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Speaker 2: What I find is that a lot of our beliefs

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Speaker 2: that we have about ourselves and about others are wired

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Speaker 2: to try and make us feel safe to some degree.

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Speaker 2: So I believe, and I'm hypothetically saying this, I believe

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Speaker 2: that I am right in my opinion because that makes

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Speaker 2: me feel safe and secure. But often to unearth a wound,

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Speaker 2: we have to be okay with the vulnerability of saying, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe I'm not right. Maybe this response is coming from

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Speaker 2: some wound that I gained in the past. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: when you speak about your marriage, you spark something for me.

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Speaker 2: I found that a lot of the love I received

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Speaker 2: when I was younger was then followed by guilt. So

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Speaker 2: when I received love when I was younger, the idea

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Speaker 2: was if I couldn't reciprocate with that level of love,

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Speaker 2: I'd be made to feel guilty. That I didn't love

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Speaker 2: someone enough, and I found that I would repeat that

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Speaker 2: in my own relationship with my wife, where I would

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Speaker 2: over love and if she didn't match that level of love,

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Speaker 2: I would then make her feel guilty. And it took

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Speaker 2: me years to really discover that pattern. And that's just

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Speaker 2: one tiny pattern. And whether that's trauma or a difficult

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Speaker 2: experience is a different conversation. But the idea that spotting

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Speaker 2: that pattern only came from me saying, well, maybe I'm wrong,

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Speaker 2: Maybe me wanting to make someone feel guilty is not

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Speaker 2: the right thing. How do we assess that? How do

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Speaker 2: we gain the vulnerability in safety to create that future stability?

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Well, it makes absolute sense because vulnerability itself is absolutely

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Speaker 1: essential for growth. So vulnerability is the word itself comes

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Speaker 1: from the Latin word vulnerarity to wound, So vulnerability is

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Speaker 1: our capacity to be wounded. Not The reality is that

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Speaker 1: as human beings were all vulnerable from conception until death.

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Speaker 1: But when we're hurting childhood and the vulnerability is too

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Speaker 1: painful to bear, we will try and shut down on vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and for example, by being right. But if I'm right,

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Speaker 1: then I'm powerful and I can't be a sailed anymore,

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Speaker 1: you know. But when we do that, we stop growing.

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Speaker 1: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a

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Speaker 1: crustacean animal like a crab inside a hard shell, it

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Speaker 1: can't grow. It has to mold and make yourself very

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Speaker 1: vulnerable to be able to grow. A tree doesn't grow

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Speaker 1: where it's hard and thick, does it. It goes where

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Speaker 1: it's soft and green and vulnerable. So vulnerability is absolutely

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Speaker 1: essential for growth. And for vulnerability, you gotta let go

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Speaker 1: of those defenses such as being right, that you developed

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Speaker 1: as a child, in order to protect yourself from the pain.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we talk about growing pains, because vulnerability

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Speaker 1: is necessary for growth. Without vulnerability, there is no growth.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that what you just said, that is so beautiful.

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Speaker 2: You just said vulnerability is our capacity to be wounded. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's an I mean, that's an incredible definition of the word.

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Speaker 2: I think we hear so many definitions of vulnerability, but

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Speaker 2: that vulnerability, I'm just gonna say that again. Everyone write

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Speaker 2: that down. Vulnerability is our capacity to be wounded. How

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Speaker 2: do we develop our capacity? So actually, let's go back

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Speaker 2: to childood. We'll come back to that. So if we

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Speaker 2: go to childhood? What are the things happening currently that

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Speaker 2: you perceive? And I know you talk about this in

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Speaker 2: your new book, The Myth of Normal. By the way,

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Speaker 2: everything we're talking about is in this incredible book, The

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Speaker 2: Myth of Normal, Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have it, please go and order it. Now,

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Speaker 2: what is happening in our childhood in society? I guess

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Speaker 2: when you say things are not happening to us, there

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Speaker 2: are still environmental impacts that are imprinting the potential for

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Speaker 2: this wound to grow. What are some of those things

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Speaker 2: that are distorting our development in unhealthy ways in childhood?

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Speaker 1: The two things. One is obvious, like when the children

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Speaker 1: are mistreated, maltreated, abused sexually, physically, emotionally, when there's violence

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Speaker 1: in a family or a parent is caught up in addiction,

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Speaker 1: or where there's a ranker's divorce and a lot of

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Speaker 1: conflict in the home, children are just wounded, period. But

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Speaker 1: it's more insidious and more ubiquitous than that, because children

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Speaker 1: have certain basic needs. Now, if we understand human if

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Speaker 1: you want to understand a zebra or a whale, where

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Speaker 1: would you study those creatures in a zoo or an

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Speaker 1: aquarium or a turn nature. The same with human beings.

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Speaker 1: So you have to actually look at what are the

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Speaker 1: evolutionary determined needs of human beings as inculcated or instilled

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Speaker 1: in us through our evolutionary history, and so we evolved

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Speaker 1: with certain needs. There used to be this belief that

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Speaker 1: children or what are called a tabula rasare you know,

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Speaker 1: an empty slate. You can just write whatever you want

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Speaker 1: on it, program the child in any way you want.

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Speaker 1: That used to be the prevailing belief. It's not the true.

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Speaker 1: Children are born with not only certain needs, but certain

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Speaker 1: inherent expectations. So to give an example, your lungs are

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Speaker 1: an inherent expectation for oxygen because they've developed in response

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Speaker 1: to oxygen. If there'd be no oxygen in the environment,

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Speaker 1: we'd have no lungs. In the same way with the

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Speaker 1: human child, it has certain inherent expectations. And you can

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Speaker 1: warn kids not just by maltreating them, but by not

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Speaker 1: meeting those expectations. When as the expectation, I don't mean

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Speaker 1: a conscious expectation, I mean an expectation inherent in the organism.

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Speaker 1: So children need unconditional, loving acceptance by multiple adult caregivers

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Speaker 1: which is how we evolved in hunter gatherer groups and

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Speaker 1: live that way for millions and hundreds thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: Children never need not to have to work to make

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Speaker 1: their relationship with the parents work, so a child children

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Speaker 1: need rest from having to struggle to make the relationship functional.

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Speaker 1: So they don't have to be pretty or cute, or

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Speaker 1: compliant or clever or successful or any of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: They just need to be and they don't have to

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Speaker 1: work at getting the parents to accept them. That's an

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Speaker 1: essential need of the child. When I say essential, I

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Speaker 1: mean if it's not met, that'll distoy child development. The

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Speaker 1: third need is really crucial, and in our society it's

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Speaker 1: hardly ever met, which is the child needs the freedom

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Speaker 1: to experience all the emotions that nature has ended out

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Speaker 1: her or him what they with. So we have certain

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Speaker 1: brand circuits for anger, for love, for play, or lust

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Speaker 1: for seeking curiosity. All these circuits are there for a reason.

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Speaker 1: We share them with other animals. We share them with

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Speaker 1: bear cups and puppies and little whales, you know, elephants.

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Speaker 1: They need to develop because they're there for a reason.

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Speaker 1: Evolution gave it to us. In our society, parents are

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Speaker 1: often advised and taught to suppress certain emotional experience on

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Speaker 1: the part of the child. That's a wound to the

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Speaker 1: child which distorts their development and has significant implications for

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Speaker 1: health later on. The fourth need fourth essential need is

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Speaker 1: free play out in nature, free play, spontaneous, creative, imaginative play.

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Speaker 1: But that's essential for healthy brain development. We share them

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Speaker 1: with other animals. Baby elephants play, bear cups play, puppies play,

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Speaker 1: lion cups play crucial for brain development. We know that

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Speaker 1: now in our society we put cognitive development way ahead

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Speaker 1: of play and are deprived of a children of play

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Speaker 1: by giving them gadgets, which deprives them of imagination. So

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Speaker 1: we're actually undermining their brain development and they're healthy unfolding

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Speaker 1: as human beings. So children can be wounded not just

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Speaker 1: by bad things happening to them, but by their needs

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Speaker 1: not being met. And our society when you ask about

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Speaker 1: the environmental conditions that are undermine health and child development,

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Speaker 1: these amountal conditions are our society or enemical to healthy

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Speaker 1: human unfoldment. No wonder we have so many childrence in

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Speaker 1: trouble with anxiety and ADHD and depression, and the rate

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Speaker 1: of child suicidety is going up, and the number of

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Speaker 1: kids being medicated with heavy duty medications, multiplicity of medications

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Speaker 1: is going up. Why because the conditions for healthy development

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Speaker 1: are less and less available to them. Not because parents

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Speaker 1: don't love their kids, not because they're not trying to

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Speaker 1: do their best, but because of the conditions under which

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Speaker 1: parenting takes place in this society.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just to share some of those stats that are

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Speaker 2: in the book that doctor Mattei is referring to. We

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Speaker 2: have in twenty nineteen more than fifty million Americans, over

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Speaker 2: twenty percent of the US adults suffered an episode of

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Speaker 2: mental illness. Rates of obesity, along with the multiple health

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Speaker 2: risks it possesses, are going up in many countries, in

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Speaker 2: cl in Canada, Australia, and notably the United States, where

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Speaker 2: over thirty percent of the adult population reached the criteria.

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Speaker 2: And then this part, millions of North American children and

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Speaker 2: youths are being medicated with stimulants, antidepressants, and even antipsychotic

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Speaker 2: drugs whose long term effects on the developing brain are

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Speaker 2: yet to be established. So you know, you share all

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Speaker 2: these insights and research and work. What I'm interested by is,

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Speaker 2: let's say a child today is raised in that way.

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Speaker 2: I find it fascinating that if you then migrate that

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Speaker 2: child into the real world, and for everyone who's listening,

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Speaker 2: I'm doing my quotation marks like real world. They walk

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Speaker 2: into this conditioned world that we currently have. If we

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Speaker 2: almost raised a village of children in a I don't

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Speaker 2: know what the right word is, but I guess in

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Speaker 2: a more natural way. But then they evolved and had

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Speaker 2: to get a job and work in the world. How

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Speaker 2: would they function? What would be your take on how

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Speaker 2: they would do? I mean, is there any research on

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Speaker 2: that or what would be your thoughts about how they

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Speaker 2: would deal with the then capitalist society that is drilled

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Speaker 2: around results and performance and being beautiful or smart or cute.

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Speaker 2: How would they react to that?

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Speaker 1: That question as actually has been studied to some degree,

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Speaker 1: and they would not automatically buy into the values. So

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Speaker 1: they may need to get a job, but they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: identify themselves with the job, and they wouldn't judge themselves

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Speaker 1: based on the external values and success. They were also

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Speaker 1: into the world with the sense of purpose, and I

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Speaker 1: know you, purpose is very important to you. So a

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Speaker 1: sense of purpose can only arise from us differ in

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Speaker 1: touch with the real selves. So they would be in

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Speaker 1: the world, but they wouldn't be of the world in

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Speaker 1: a sense. They wouldn't identify themselves with the values that

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Speaker 1: society would push on them. So I think they would struggle,

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Speaker 1: but they would do reasonably well, and they'd hold them

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Speaker 1: to themselves in the process. They wouldn't live a life

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Speaker 1: that's based on what do other people think about me?

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Speaker 1: Am I pretty enough? Do they find me attractive? Have

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Speaker 1: I collected enough goods and objects to make me feel

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Speaker 1: okay about myself? They wouldn't buy into all that. And

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Speaker 1: to the extent that this has been studied and it

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Speaker 1: has been those people that can be in this society

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Speaker 1: without buying into its values tend to be healthier and

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Speaker 1: more grounded emotionally.

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Speaker 2: The reason why I love hearing that is because it's

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Speaker 2: the first time I've connected these ideas together. That when

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Speaker 2: I was born and raised in London, I was born

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Speaker 2: and raised with all the usual pursuits. I have a

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Speaker 2: good education, a good home, a good financial situation, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: Those were the ways I was raised and success was

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Speaker 2: a big part of my culture. Yeah, and I'd chase

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Speaker 2: the validation of my family and the external surroundings of

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Speaker 2: my community and what my aunts and uncles taught to me,

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Speaker 2: and when that validation was dissatisfying or didn't feel like

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Speaker 2: it was actually coming my way, And when I was

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Speaker 2: finally introduced to the monks at eighteen, I then seeked

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Speaker 2: the validation of the monks, only for them to teach

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Speaker 2: me that the issue wasn't who you seek validation from.

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Speaker 2: The issue was seeking validation in the first place. And

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Speaker 2: so what you just said to me is in three years,

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Speaker 2: I got a crash course in what you're saying, where

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Speaker 2: we spent more time in nature, we were trained in

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Speaker 2: unlearning the behaviors and habits that I developed for well

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Speaker 2: twenty one years at the time. And then when I

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Speaker 2: came back into the world the way you just described

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Speaker 2: that is exactly how I felt like. I almost felt

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Speaker 2: like a new person coming back into the same world

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Speaker 2: that I left with a completely different approach and a

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Speaker 2: different map of how to navigate it. And you're spot on.

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Speaker 2: It's still hard. It's not that it's perfect and it's easy,

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Speaker 2: and it's not that I've got it right. It's just

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Speaker 2: that when I am challenged, I have a toolkit or

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Speaker 2: I have some ideas, as you said, with purpose. That

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Speaker 2: helped me think about the problem differently. You're not governed

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Speaker 2: by the same thing. So when I went into the

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Speaker 2: world of work, and I just want to give people

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Speaker 2: how a practical example of what doctor Matter is saying

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Speaker 2: is spot on. When I went into the world of work,

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Speaker 2: we were all told that we had to be good

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Speaker 2: at a list of like ten things in order to succeed.

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Speaker 2: And I looked at that list of ten and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I can do one of those things really well,

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Speaker 2: and I'm only going to focus on that one because

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Speaker 2: these other nine are not my nature, They're not my purpose.

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Speaker 2: And it's so strange because that one thing made me

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Speaker 2: extremely successful at the company I worked at and then

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Speaker 2: has become how I've built my career. And it's so

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Speaker 2: true that had I had gone in and done what

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of people did, I would have become what

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Speaker 2: ninety percent of people were doing. That really deeply resonates

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Speaker 2: what is the difference though with and I can't wait

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Speaker 2: to read some of that research on that. I think

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Speaker 2: that's fascinating. When you have a culture where I think

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Speaker 2: most people who read this book today the myth of

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Speaker 2: normal will say that they can relate to having trauma

431
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: illness and trying to be on the path of healing.

432
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 2: Especially our community here, they are absolutly going to love

433
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 2: this book. This is exactly why we have this show.

434
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: But I find that we would all agree. I think

435
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 2: if I asked everyone to put up their hands and

436
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: say how many people feel their experience to traumatic environment

437
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 2: at home, I think most people would raise their hands.

438
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: If I asked how many people felt when they were

439
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: children that they had unhealthy relationships with their parents to

440
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,959
Speaker 2: some degree, I think most people will put their hand up.

441
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: The challenge I find is that I really feel what

442
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 2: you're saying with the book. There's a difference between what

443
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: you're saying and then the other extreme, which is molly coddling.

444
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: So there's neglect and then there's molly coddling. And I

445
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: find that as humans, our brains are wired for extremes.

446
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: So if we we've seen that being mistreated or neglected

447
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: is really bad for us, we go the opposite way

448
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 2: and we go, okay, and now I'm going to make

449
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: sure that this kid has like twenty four cushions around it.

450
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 1: I'll be curious to know. I like to answer that

451
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: question is a very important one, But I just want

452
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: to know anxiety. What you mean by Molly cardlying.

453
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: What I see, and I'm talking about people that I

454
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: know and people that will speak to me, is that

455
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: anyone who had a tough childhood are then trying to

456
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 2: create a scenario for their child where that child experiences

457
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: no pain.

458
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: They no longer respond to the child needs. They're coming

459
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: from their own anxieties. Yes, so Molly Carling has got

460
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the child. It has to do

461
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,239
Speaker 1: with the anxieties of their parents. That kid is going

462
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: to download the anxieties of their parents. So mollicoddle kids

463
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: become very anxious and very scared and very ungrounded in themselves.

464
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's not possible to love kids

465
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: too much. In fact, there's a very interesting study where

466
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: they looked at a large number of mothers and their

467
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: infants very few months, and most mothers in this study

468
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: were seen as really good mothers, and some were a

469
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: bit distant and for their own because of their own

470
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: traumas not as available and a small group we're seen

471
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: as like super loving in how they dodded over their infants.

472
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: Thirty years later, they looked at these infants now as adults,

473
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: the ones that were mostly emotionally grounded and healthy were

474
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: the ones who received the super loving. So there's a difference.

475
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: You can't love a child too much what you can,

476
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: So the modi calling that you describe is not a

477
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: child being loved too much. It's a child who has

478
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: to enjoy the anxieties of their parents. And you know,

479
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: there's a very famous example in world history of someone

480
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: whose parents wanted to protect him from suffering was the Buddha.

481
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: He never saw death, he never saw illness, and never

482
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: saw old age. Until he goes out and sees a

483
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: dying person, sees a very poor person, a very ill

484
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: or a very old person. He realizes that there's suffering

485
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: in the world. So all the molly coddling he received

486
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: could not ultimately protect him from the awareness of pain

487
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: and vulnerability. Although if I talk about the Buddha, I

488
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 1: also have to say that his own trauma is often

489
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: not talked about because his mother died when he was

490
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: a week old or right after bird didn't he didn't

491
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: she So even they try to protect him, they couldn't,

492
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 1: you know. But so anyway, molly carddling has got nothing

493
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: to do with the needs of the child.

494
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: That's a great differentiator.

495
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: It has to do with the unmet needs of the parents.

496
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: And as soon as parents project their needs onto the child,

497
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: no longer see the child as they exist. They see

498
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 1: their own anxieties. They're on their fears and their own fantasies. Naturally,

499
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: that's going to hurt the child.

500
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a great differentiated. That's again, it's a

501
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: trauma response.

502
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: It's a trauma Yeah, it's a trauma response.

503
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:59,920
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504
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505
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507
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Speaker 2: Away travel dot com Forward slash j that's Away Travel

528
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 2: dot Com Forward slash j. How and when should children

529
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: young adults be exposed to pain in order to develop

530
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: their vulnerability like, as you said, the capacity to experience

531
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: a wound, Like how and when do we allow ourselves?

532
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: How should we What environment is required to allow ourselves

533
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: to experience pain in a healthy way or is it

534
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: just going to come anyway.

535
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: It's the nature of life. There's no reason to deliberately

536
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: expose children to pain because they're going to experience it.

537
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: The question is how we support them and they do

538
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: you know why, because their puppy is going to die,

539
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: because grandfather is going to die, because some neighborhood friend

540
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,719
Speaker 1: won't want to play with them, because they're not going

541
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: to get the toy they wanted, because some disappointment will happen,

542
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: you know. So pain is inevitable, but it doesn't have

543
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: to become traumatic if the child is supported and experiencing

544
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: the pain and moving past it. So we don't have

545
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: to impose or bring pain into kids' life to train them.

546
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: Life's going to do that. The question is how are

547
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: we to interact with them while they're enduring the pain?

548
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and what would you say? Those are Obviously there's

549
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: the love part, which you spoke about. But when a

550
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: child is going through something like that, let's talk about

551
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 2: loss because I think that's a big one, right, Like

552
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: whether it's using a parent or losing a puppy as

553
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: you said, or even if it's not losing a parent

554
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: to death, it's losing a parent into a divorce. It's

555
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 2: you know, for example, correct, Yeah, So grief and loss

556
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be the end of life. It can

557
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: be everything exactly what or a loss of a country? What?

558
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 2: What are the steps that someone should take in order

559
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: to helps guide through anyone through loss, not just a child.

560
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: Well, interestingly enough, when I talk about these brain circuits

561
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: that we share with other arom mammals for play and

562
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: for loving and seeking, we also have a brain circuit

563
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: for panic and grief. Whether we have that because life

564
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: brings loss, and so grief is essential for life, because

565
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 1: grief is coming to terms with the fact that something

566
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 1: is gone, it is not going to come back, you know.

567
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: So when a child experience is grief, and you know,

568
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: I said that the need of the child is to

569
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: be able to experience all the emotions. They need to

570
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: be able to experience the grief as well. And it

571
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: doesn't matter whether from adult eyes we see that loss

572
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 1: as major or a minor. It's a question of how

573
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: the child experiencing it. And for a small child, even

574
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: what looks like losses can be very painful. Well, then

575
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: we don't make the child wrong for it. But don't

576
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: say get over it. There's nothing wrong. Think of all

577
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: the other children who are stuffing all that kind of

578
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: relativistic shaming stuff. We say, Oh, it really hurts, doesn't it.

579
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: You really wish Grandpa would be here with you, You

580
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: really wish mom and dad weren't leaving each other. It hurts,

581
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, you just validate their emotions. By doing so,

582
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: you help them accept the loss, and you help them

583
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: move through, and you help them learn that they can

584
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: endure difficult emotions without having to become falling to pieces.

585
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: So we have a circuitry for grief in our brain,

586
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: for grief in our brains. It needs to be allowed

587
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: to do its work.

588
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: I find that a lot of us today are reflecting

589
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 2: on that inner child, right, Like that language is again

590
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: more widespread today or is growing the idea of like, oh,

591
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: we have this inner child who has this or this trauma.

592
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: What do you find is the difference between analyzing and

593
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 2: overanalyzing or thinking and overthinking these experiences? And how would

594
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: you define the difference? Because I'm being very honest and vulnerable,

595
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: because it's the only way to have this conversation. Really, like,

596
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 2: I often think about events in my life that happened

597
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: that would be considered generally as either difficult experiences or

598
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: as traumatic. Right, they could be seen as either or

599
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: there are some of them that I've worked through myself,

600
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: or with people that I trust, or with guides, and

601
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: obviously through my monk life there were things that I

602
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: looked at and worked on with. There are certain things

603
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 2: that I don't feel a need, like, I don't feel

604
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: a desire to dive into. The question I'm asking is

605
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: should I dive into them? Or is that considered overanalyzing

606
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: and overthinking? And I asked that for everyone else who's

607
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 2: listening to this, going gosh, if I thought about everything

608
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 2: that happened to me, I could be there for a while. Yeah,

609
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: what's your take on that?

610
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, in my world, there's no should. Okay,

611
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: there's no there are no shoulds.

612
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 2: There's no should. Yeah.

613
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: So I would never see anybody you should you know,

614
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: because that itself is intrusive. So the question is whether

615
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: it's helpful or not to delve into the past depends

616
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: on what's happening with that individual and if some of

617
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: the facts effects of trauma, as we said earlier, is

618
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: that the wounds of the past keep showing up in

619
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: the present. So from my point of view, It's not

620
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: so much about delving into the past and dwelling on

621
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: the past, but I'm dealing with how the past is

622
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 1: showing up in the present what a psychologists phenomene Peter

623
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: Levin calls the tyranny of the past, where the past

624
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: dominates my present reactions. It doesn't matter how many times

625
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: I go back and think about my childhood story. That's

626
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: not going to help me. What I have to deal

627
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: with is what's happening to me right now, at this

628
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: very second, which is a shadow of the past. So

629
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: thinking about it it's not gonna be of much help.

630
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: What's going to help is to deal with the emotions

631
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: that are arising now as a result of what happened,

632
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: and how those emotions affect my life in the present moment.

633
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: So it's not about the past, it's about the present.

634
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's really about the choices we.

635
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: Have now exactly what's available to us now?

636
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's available to us now? Because I feel like

637
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: we didn't have a choice in the past because we

638
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: were the too young or exactly, too incapable of making

639
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: a choice exactly. But the choices that happen right now

640
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: can transform everything.

641
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: It is possible some people do make them into victims.

642
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 1: They kind of identify with the victim role. All this

643
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: stuff happened to me, and therefore I cannot do such

644
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: and such, or I'm keeping or I'm hurt and I'll

645
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: never get over it. It's possible to identify with the

646
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: victim role. It's even possible to identify with the survival

647
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: I'm a survival. Well, no, that's not who you are.

648
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: You survive, but who you are is much greater than

649
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: that particular experience, and who you are always much greater

650
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: than then you're suffering, you know, And so it is

651
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: possible for some people to identify with the suffering and

652
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 1: the past to such a degree that they stop moving forward.

653
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, I think you've just raised a really important component

654
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: of all of this on a deeper level, is that

655
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: what we identify with Right even earlier, you were talking

656
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: about people who would be raised in this hypothetical village

657
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 2: we were talking about, but even through research, they won't

658
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: identify with the values of a capitalist society. Identification you

659
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: just said people could identify as a victim, they could

660
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 2: identify as a survivor what is a healthy identification?

661
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,439
Speaker 1: There isn't one, right, because if you look at again

662
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: the meaning of words. I just find the words fascinating.

663
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 2: Same.

664
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, identification comes from a Latin word idem, which means

665
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: the same and fetchera to make. As soon as I

666
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: make myself the same as something like if identify with

667
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 1: my role as a doctor, I immediately limit myself. If

668
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: you identify with your experience as a monk, and I

669
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: don't mean not to learn from it or to grow

670
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: from it, but if I identify with it, that's what

671
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: I am now narrowed yourself. So there's no healthy identification.

672
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 1: If identify myself with a state or a nation, I

673
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: could be loyal to that state or nation. I could

674
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: love that state or a nation or any group. But

675
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: if you identify with it such as you, you have

676
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: no independent existence. You've limited yourself already. So when you

677
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: say is there a healthy identification?

678
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: Not?

679
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: Really?

680
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 2: Isn't the challenge though, that we're I think all of

681
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: us are pursuing some sort of identification like that seems

682
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 2: to be a massive human need. I support this football club,

683
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: or I'm a fan of this band, or I'm a

684
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: member of this car club, or I go to this

685
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: shopping grocery store, like I feel like we're all wanting

686
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 2: to be members like that seems to be like a

687
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: human need of wanting to be a member of a community,

688
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: wanting to identify with something.

689
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: It is a human need to belong. But can we

690
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: belong without identifying to the point that we have no

691
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: independent perspective? You know? In other words, can be be authentic?

692
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: And I talk a lot about this tension between authenticity

693
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: being ourselves and attachment, which is belonging. Ideally, we can

694
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: both be authentic and belong. Yeah, but that kind of

695
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: anification often is to suffering. I mean, that's what the

696
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: Buddhist called attachment, isn't it. And let me give you

697
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: an example. So you mentioned sports team, so in the

698
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: night you wouldn't know this, but in the nineteen fifties

699
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: the Hungarian soccer team was the best in the world.

700
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: We never lost that I did not. I love soccer

701
00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 2: and I.

702
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: No, no, no to Britain. And we beat Britain sixty

703
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: three in Wembley Stadium the first.

704
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: Time that It was a sorry britt fans.

705
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: Yeah sorry, but there's you know, and it was a

706
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: huge national holiday in hungry and small country goes to

707
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: mighty Britain and beats them at their own game, you know.

708
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: And the next year and the whole country was joyful

709
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: and they're still on the great memories of my childhood.

710
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: The next year when the World Championships and we're the

711
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: heavy favorites because we haven't lost four years, and we

712
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: meet the Germans in the final and we lose three

713
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: to two. National tragedy. I'm telling you, it's still hurts.

714
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: You know. It's just a football game played on the

715
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: pitch by twenty two guys in nineteen fifty four. So

716
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: what you know. But when this is over identification, then

717
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: that itself being suffering. Now you know, Yes, you can

718
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 1: support your team in Vancouver, British Columbia, where I live,

719
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: peaceful place. But the Vanqure Connects, which is a local

720
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 1: hockey team, made it to the Stanley Cup finals and

721
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: they lost. There were riots in the streets. Why there's

722
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: people that othore identified. You can enjoy the team and

723
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 1: be a sports fan. But the identification that your joy

724
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: or satisfaction depends on whether your team loses or wins, well,

725
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: why it doesn't matter.

726
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that answer for many reasons because I've

727
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: had to go through the grief of letting go of

728
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 2: past selves, adopting new selves, and then having to realize

729
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 2: that none of those were me as my identification. So,

730
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 2: as you rightly said, when I took off the garbs

731
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: of a monk, when I took off my robes, it

732
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: was really tough because there was a part of my identity,

733
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 2: especially at a young age, that was attached even to

734
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: the outer covering. And I had to realize that I

735
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: had extra the inner beliefs and leave the outer covering

736
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 2: behind and the outer name and what that meant. And

737
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: even in my career today, like I've had to let

738
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: go and even now I don't even know how to

739
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: identify in one sense. Whenever I'm sure I'm sure you

740
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: feel this to some degree in your work as well.

741
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: It's like whenever they say, like, oh, when you're on

742
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: TV and they want to put like your your title,

743
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 2: and they'll be like, Jay, what's your title? I'm like,

744
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: I'm more defined by my purpose than my profession, Like,

745
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 2: you know, what I do for people and the service

746
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: I want to offer in the world is far more

747
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 2: important to me than author or podcaster or form a

748
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: monk or like those things don't really define me.

749
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: Well, I get that totally. I what I'm thinking about

750
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 1: it as you're telling you when you left those monks Robs,

751
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: we talk about the crab then with the hard shell.

752
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: To grow, you have to go with the shell at

753
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: some point. So each of those maltings represent the point

754
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 1: of growth. But at the time it's difficult. So when

755
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: I love family practice to go and work with a

756
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: highly addicted population in Vancouver, and it was a loss

757
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: of identity for a while, I was a bit disseriented

758
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: for a few days because all these people, these families

759
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 1: that had relied on me to be the kind of

760
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 1: the lynchpin of their linchpin of their health, and all

761
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: these people that had come to me and trust me,

762
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: and who I would see in the office, and all

763
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: of a sudden I left that. Now who am I

764
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: all of a sudden? So I totally understand that. No,

765
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 1: the reality is that I'm so grateful that I did well.

766
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: Then I got to experience in the next realm of

767
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,759
Speaker 1: work helped to further define my purpose in life and

768
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: taught me so much about myself and human beings. But

769
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: at the time it was difficult. Letting go of that

770
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: identification was difficult, and there was really that sense of Well,

771
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: if I'm not that, then what am I? This is

772
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: what happens when me identify with roles.

773
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. If anyone's listening and wants to go at figuring

774
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 2: out what your subconscious answer is, ask one of your friends,

775
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 2: ask them and get them to ask you, who are you? Yeah,

776
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: and your answer to that question. Nine episode of the time,

777
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 2: when you ask someone who are you, they'll say, I'm

778
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: a lawyer, I'm an accountant, I'm I'm a brit I'm

779
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: an America, and I'm you know. Always the answer is

780
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 2: on such a material level.

781
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 1: Well, As one spiritual teacher said, I think unless I'm

782
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: making this up, but I think they said that the

783
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: problem is not knowing who we are. The problem is

784
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: thinking that you know who we are.

785
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It's incredible, isn't it that the things

786
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: that are true safety feel unsafe to the mind?

787
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

788
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: And I'm intrigued by that. Because you've studied the mind,

789
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: you studied addiction, you studied healing, you study trauma. Why

790
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: is it that we seek certainty and stability When you

791
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: earlier also said that the only time we experience growth

792
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: is the opposite, when we're vulnerable. Why is it that

793
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 2: we're so addicted to things staying the same or things

794
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: not changing like that seems to be a core human addiction.

795
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: Well, a therapist one said to me that it has

796
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: to do with the nature of the mind that you're

797
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: referring to. A therapist once said to me that if

798
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: your parents didn't know what to hold you, you developed

799
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: the mind you hold yourself with. So you find safety

800
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: in his mind that you created. And so the human mind,

801
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: the ordinary egoing human mind, is basically a defensive structure.

802
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: It's in significant ways it's a response to pain. That's

803
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: not all it is, but in significant ways, it's a

804
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: response to pain. It's a fate of pain, and it's

805
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: designed to keep you from experiencing pain. So it's worried

806
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 1: and it's anxious, and it's defensive. So when it comes

807
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: to change and vulnerability, the mind wants to defend against it,

808
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: and so it's it comes out of fear, which comes

809
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: out of childhood experience where the pain that you had

810
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: wasn't held, and therefore you develop these mind structures to

811
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: keep you from experiencing it. And I mean one of

812
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: them clearly is addiction. And you know, Keith Richards, the

813
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: world's most famous former aeronautic, the Rolling Stone Guitars, said

814
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: about addiction, for example, his heroine us that the contortions

815
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: you go through just not to be yourself for a

816
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: few hours. Why would somebody not want to be themselves?

817
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: Because it hurts so much at some point to be yourself.

818
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: And then the mind comes in and tries to protect

819
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 1: you on the pain of being yourself, with its ideas

820
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: and its beliefs, and its certainties and its endless desires

821
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: and its artificial needs. And it's a faith to let go,

822
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: because if I let go, I'll be helpless child again.

823
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: But the mind large is a defensive structure, and then

824
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,399
Speaker 1: often will react that way.

825
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: That defensive structure obviously it sets us up for so much.

826
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: What is happening inside that makes two people react completely

827
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 2: differently to the same thing. Right, You could have a

828
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: parent that's drug addict, and one of the children goes,

829
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: I'm never gonna have drugs ever again, because I saw

830
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,760
Speaker 2: what it did to my parents, and the other person

831
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 2: actually imitates the behavior and goes down the same path.

832
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 2: What have you found or seen that at a young

833
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: age creates that different journey.

834
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 1: Well, the first thing to say is that no two

835
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: children have the same two parents, and no two children

836
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: have the same childhoods, even though they grew up in

837
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: the same biological a family, because first of all, one

838
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: of them came along at a different time, so they

839
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: had a different set of experiences. There is the birth

840
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: order that effects our children experience to parents. Then there's

841
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: degrees of sensitivities, so some people are born more sensitive

842
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,959
Speaker 1: than others. Sensitive again comes on a Latin words sense

843
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: here to feel. The more sensitive we are, the more

844
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 1: we feel. Given the right environment, nourishing, supportive, grounded environment,

845
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 1: that sensitive child just becomes an intuitive, a creator and artists,

846
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: an actor, a leader. But in an environment where there's pain,

847
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,879
Speaker 1: that sensitive child suffers more pain than the less sensitive one,

848
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: so they have more of a reason to escape from

849
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: the pain. It's not so much that he imitates the

850
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: behavior of the adult, is that he takes the same

851
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: escape route, and addictions are always he might view at

852
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: least an escape route from pain. So it has to

853
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:31,280
Speaker 1: do with birth order, but family circumstances, degrees of sensitivity.

854
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: Having said that, the other child who doesn't become an

855
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,720
Speaker 1: addict hasn't necessarily escaped. They just may have developed different

856
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: copiate mechanisms. They might have become one of these people

857
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: that are going to make a big success in the

858
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: world out of themselves, and they're going to never going

859
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 1: to fail and they have to be the best, and

860
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: they're going to suffer too. That just might suffer in

861
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 1: a different way.

862
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 2: That sensitivity you're talking about is probably one of the

863
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: biggest questions I get asked right now, and I want

864
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: to ask it to you because I feel your experience

865
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,720
Speaker 2: could offer some real light on it. I feel people

866
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 2: are experiencing so much sensitivity and empathy that they just

867
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 2: can't stand the world we live in today.

868
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: There are people like that.

869
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: And I hear this again and again where it's like

870
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: whether it's the political climate or the economic climate, or

871
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: their family have addictions or friends, like everything that you

872
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 2: talk about in the book, and people feel this can't

873
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: be my home, like this is not the place I

874
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 2: want to live in. And so, just as you were

875
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,760
Speaker 2: saying earlier that someone may have the thought I don't

876
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: want to be myself or feel like myself for a

877
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: few hours, people say, well, this doesn't feel like the

878
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: world I want to live in. I'm sure you've met

879
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: many people who've felt that way, seen that way, or

880
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:48,879
Speaker 2: maybe even talk that way.

881
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: Haven't met people let me tell you something, or worked

882
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: with you. I had an experience with kedemyine a few

883
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: years ago. This is Academyane training for dealers, and I

884
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 1: was injective with ketamine taking me where it was taking me,

885
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden I found must have screaming

886
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: I hate the world. That was good that it came

887
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,799
Speaker 1: out of me. So I totally know what you're talking

888
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that person, I personally know what

889
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Okay. So here's the thing. I think

890
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: a lot of that has to do with. At first,

891
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: of all, the world is getting more stressed, it's getting

892
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: more split. Everybody sees that it's getting more hostile in

893
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: a lot of way. It's getting more less welcoming and

894
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 1: more dangerous, more alienating on the one On the other hand,

895
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: we're more and more alone with it. By isolation and

896
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: loneliness are rising. So if people experience pain and change

897
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 1: and stress or even danger communally, it's bearable. But when

898
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 1: we're alone with it, it becomes less and less bearable.

899
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: And so one of the major factors driving I think

900
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: the sensitivity that you're describing is just how alone people feel,

901
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: which is not how we're meant to be. So that

902
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 1: the capitalist values of aggressive, individualistic, ruthless greed and competition

903
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: against everybody else that doesn't reflect human needs or even

904
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 1: human nature, not as we evolved. But the more the

905
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,240
Speaker 1: world gets that way and the more isolated we become,

906
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: the more vulnerable we are to be hurt by the

907
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: world that we live in. And I think that's what

908
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 1: people are talking about.

909
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things for me.

910
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: I was really fortunate that the client side coach and

911
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 2: the people that I work with, I got to experience

912
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 2: a lot of individuals who were vulnerable with me, but

913
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 2: they experienced being lonely and successful, and lonely success didn't

914
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 2: bring happiness. And I know that one thing that me

915
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: and my wife are always talking about, especially because we're

916
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 2: in a country where we don't have any family, we

917
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: had to start from scratching our friendship, work and everything.

918
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: I heard you say in a podcast of how important

919
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: families do your wife for example, for.

920
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: My wife, it's huge, like her personal family is like

921
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: everything to her, like that's her greatest value. But here

922
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: we had to build our family yeah, And I think

923
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: one of the things we constantly do is we try

924
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: and make a concerted effort in order to cultivate and

925
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 2: curate our community in LA. And it's fascinating to me

926
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 2: because again, perception comes in where most people say to me, well,

927
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 2: LA's a very shallow place, like LA is a very

928
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: fake place, And I'll say, well, I found some of

929
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 2: my best friends here and incredible human beings. How much

930
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: does that perception of a place or a space or

931
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 2: a person actually also make us more lonely? Because I

932
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 2: find sometimes that loneliness is created by perception, Like if

933
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 2: we're scared of being vulnerable with someone, it's hard that

934
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: someone will be vulnerable with us, Right, So what do

935
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 2: we need to do in order to build deeper relationships

936
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,360
Speaker 2: for healing and in this path that you're suggesting.

937
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, that occurs to me that lonliness

938
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:05,760
Speaker 1: is obvious perception. There's a difference being alone and being lonely.

939
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 1: Alone is just a fact, and that we can embrace

940
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: and make decisions about loneliness. It's got an emotional charge

941
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 1: to it, and that's very much a matter of perception.

942
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: You can be alone and not be lonely and you

943
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: can be surrounded by all kinds of people and be

944
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: completely lonely. So how open am I? How vulnerable am

945
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: I really really willing to be? What defenses have I

946
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 1: erected around myself to protect myself that keeps me from

947
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:47,799
Speaker 1: really contacting other people? I think we unwittingly generate loneliness.

948
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: There's also something else that happens, and you referred to

949
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: this earlier. You talked about elders. So in our society,

950
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 1: we don't talk about elders. We talk about the elderly.

951
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: It's not the same In our society that defines me

952
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: people so much in terms of their economic value. We

953
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: tend to discard people that are not perceived as having

954
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: economic value, either as producers or consumers. But this society

955
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 1: generates a lot of loneliness just because it's materialistic values,

956
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: and in other functioning cultures, elders are not only they respected,

957
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: but they're also they have a purpose. They have the wisdom,

958
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: they have the experience, they have the vision. They have

959
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 1: let go of a lot of the attachments that youth

960
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,320
Speaker 1: invariably engages with, so they have a lot to offer.

961
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: So loneliness is also created in a society that has

962
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: a very rigid and limited set of values.

963
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love the change in the language again of

964
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 2: the elders and the elderly. And I always go back

965
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 2: to that time in my life because it gave me

966
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 2: so much. But growing up around people that were the

967
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: same age, younger, older, yeah, and elder gave you so

968
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: many different visions of life. And when I look back

969
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: at my childhood or my young adulthood, I was constantly

970
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 2: surrounded by people that were older than me, younger than me,

971
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,839
Speaker 2: much older than me, and wiser than me. And being

972
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 2: able to have everyone's vantage point. Yes, created a beautiful

973
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: three to sixty degree picture of life. Yes, but most

974
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,439
Speaker 2: of today we're only seeing one degree. If you spend

975
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 2: time with only people your age, you're getting a very

976
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: limited viewpoint of life, versus if you're spending time with

977
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: a much wider age range.

978
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: And you tend to get a much less mature and

979
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: rounded view of life. One of the books I've helped

980
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:40,759
Speaker 1: to write the core what is called hold on to

981
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 1: Your Kids. My parents need to matter more than peers.

982
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: And the point made in that book is precisely what

983
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,760
Speaker 1: you just articulated, which is that for so many people,

984
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: their world begins and ends with their own age group,

985
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:58,280
Speaker 1: which is a developmental disaster because again, evolved as creatures

986
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: in touch with multiple people with multiple ages. Then we've

987
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: spent our time around people with multiple ages. When you

988
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: isolate people by agees this culture largely does. I mean

989
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 1: there's subgroups within subgroups, within subcultures within subcultures in a society,

990
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 1: all based on very shallow identification with age. It just

991
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: limits our development and limits our possibilities.

992
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 2: And with that development, how do you see human nature?

993
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 2: Do you see human nature as muddied trying to become

994
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 2: pure or beginning it pure and then getting muddied and

995
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 2: then trying to cock how do you see that?

996
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: Well, we do happen to have a chapter on human

997
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: nature in this book. And pondering that same question that

998
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: you just raised, imole Hass comes to the conclusion is

999
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: not that there's a definable human nature, not that you

1000
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 1: can say, because I mean, look, Bordha was a human being,

1001
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 1: Hitler was a human being. One. It's full of compassion

1002
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: and love and giving the others full of read and

1003
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,560
Speaker 1: aggression and hatred. They're both human beings, So how can

1004
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: you talk about it defined human nature? However, what I

1005
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: think we can say confidently that is a certain human

1006
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: potential based on human needs. If those needs are met,

1007
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: development will be healthy and those potential will be realized.

1008
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 1: If those needs are frustrated, which they severely were in

1009
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 1: the case of Sayah Hitler, a terribly abused child, then

1010
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: what you get is the hatred and the rage and

1011
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: the murderous venom that characterized that personality. Now when you

1012
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: couple that with political power, you see what happens. But

1013
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: that's not human nature. It's just human nature thwarted because

1014
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: the needs of that child were not met in a

1015
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: society that was committely incapable of meeting people's needs, in fact,

1016
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: totally abused them. So human nature to me is not

1017
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 1: a given. What behaves a human potential based on human needs.

1018
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: If these needs are satisfied, we can be reasonably confident

1019
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 1: that people will be connected and generous. Most people want

1020
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: to be kind. I mean, it's interesting in a society

1021
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: when somebody there's something selfish or greedy, we say that's

1022
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: just human nature. Do we say that when somebody is

1023
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: kind or generous?

1024
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 2: Never?

1025
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: The educator Alpha Cone points that out, And if you ask,

1026
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 1: most people when does your body feel more at ease?

1027
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: When do you've experience more peace when you've been kind

1028
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: and generous and giving authentically, not for not all of

1029
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 1: a sense of duty, but because that was just the impulse.

1030
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: Or when you're grasping and greedy, when is there more

1031
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: tension and more discomfort inside? So that should tell us

1032
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: something about our nature, that our nature wants to be

1033
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: aligned with connection and generosity and giving, because our bodies

1034
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: will tell us that that.

1035
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: Is so true. That is so true. I mean, there

1036
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 2: is no time in life when you're bitter at someone

1037
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 2: or angry at someone that makes you feel inside like

1038
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: it does. Yeah, gut wise too. I'm not just meaning

1039
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: in the heart space, but in all areas of your body,

1040
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: the tension, the stress, the holding, the tightening. But like

1041
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 2: we were talking about earlier, society set up in a

1042
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 2: way for false identification and divisive identification, whether it be

1043
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 2: two sets of soccer fans who now hate each other

1044
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: or rioting, or whether it be you know, political parties,

1045
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: or whether it be businesses at war with each other. Right, Like,

1046
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 2: everything's set up in a way to get you to

1047
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 2: identify with something in order for you to be against

1048
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 2: something like that's what naturally ends up happening. Even schools

1049
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 2: like I went to this school, you went to that school,

1050
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: We competed. Competition seems to be something that has been

1051
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 2: carefully crafted by capitalist society. And then when you see

1052
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 2: the rise of and by the way, I love competition,

1053
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: so health competition is great. So I'm not talking bad

1054
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 2: about competition, but it's interesting to see how again, it's

1055
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 2: so hard to compete without identify flying as that being

1056
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: your worth, and that requires so much mental spiritual strength,

1057
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 2: in my opinion, to be able to differentiate between identification

1058
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 2: and attachment.

1059
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's really interesting because let's take the example of

1060
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: sports that you just mentioned. What do we call the

1061
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: people who participate in the sports that we call them players?

1062
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 1: What do we call the process that they're engaging? We

1063
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:30,320
Speaker 1: call it a game, But we don't treat it like players.

1064
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: We don't treat it like a game because real games

1065
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: and real play has no agenda. There competition in the process,

1066
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: and you want to do your best, but in the

1067
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: end it doesn't matter. It was just it's for the

1068
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: process and for the joy of it. That's genuine play. Well,

1069
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 1: when you think about these multi billion dollars sports industries

1070
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: and the strategy and hype that goes into These are

1071
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 1: not players, and these are warriors, almost as if their

1072
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 1: engagements are kind of a battle, and winning and losing

1073
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: becomes everything. Like the famous Vince Lombardi, winning is not

1074
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: the only thing, that's the only thing. Well, that's not true, people.

1075
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: That's true for the purposes of playing, as long as

1076
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: you recognize that you're only playing, as long as you

1077
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:19,720
Speaker 1: don't confuse the game with life itself. But once it

1078
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: becomes a business and becomes cutthroat, that confusion is really prevalent,

1079
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: and people take it so seriously. So, I mean, you

1080
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: think about it, like you have these terrible conflicts in

1081
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,800
Speaker 1: the world, like the war in the Ukraine right now,

1082
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: the average person, how much time are they induced to

1083
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 1: spend thinking about those large issues or say about climate

1084
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: change that only the blindness of the blind or the

1085
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: wickedest of the wickedest can at this point deny as

1086
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: a reality. But how much of our life do we

1087
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 1: spend actually pondering and engaging with these larger issues compared

1088
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 1: with analyzing which quarterback should have play in which quarter

1089
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: of which particular NFL game? You know, so that these

1090
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: so called games, and these so called players have assumed

1091
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: a far larger importance in their life, in our lives,

1092
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: whereas the real things we tend to ignore.

1093
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,840
Speaker 2: You've just sparked something for me that I was blown

1094
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: away by this experience. I recently went to Rwanda, and

1095
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,960
Speaker 2: I went there with Ellen DeGeneres, in collaboration with the

1096
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 2: Dyane Foss Fund, has opened up a gorilla sanctuary and

1097
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,439
Speaker 2: a conservation center. Yes, and we went there to trek

1098
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: with gorillaz, learn about gorillaz, learn about Rwanda. And I

1099
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 2: had never been to Rwanda before. I didn't know if

1100
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 2: I would have visited if it wasn't for her. And

1101
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 2: the biggest thing I took away, obviously trekking with gorillas

1102
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 2: and being in nature with a form of life that

1103
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: has no interest in us, but we're totally fascinated by them.

1104
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:58,120
Speaker 2: Was an incredible experience, and I'll talk about that separately,

1105
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 2: but the reason I brought it up here is I

1106
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: also took time to go to the genocide memorial museums,

1107
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating for me to learn that it's

1108
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 2: been around twenty years from what I remember, a tenth

1109
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 2: of the population of the country, so like a million

1110
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 2: people of like ten million people died in the genocide

1111
01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: were killed in the genocide, and most of the people

1112
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 2: who lived there today it was their parents, it was

1113
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: their ancestors that did this just twenty years ago, which

1114
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 2: is not a long time at all. And I met

1115
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 2: some of the survivors. I sat with them in the museum.

1116
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 2: I talked to them, We talked to the locals, We

1117
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: talked to people that were helping us with our travel

1118
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:41,160
Speaker 2: and arrangements and the hotels we stayed at. And it

1119
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: fascinated me that the people were so healed, like there

1120
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 2: was such a genuine, sincere conversation that they've now let

1121
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 2: go of this two tribe culture. They've let go of

1122
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 2: the names, the identification that they're living by a principal

1123
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 2: they called ubuntu. I am because you are, I believe,

1124
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,080
Speaker 2: or you are because I am. Like that's I'll get

1125
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 2: that right. But ubuntu is the word that they use,

1126
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: and it was so special. I was I was totally.

1127
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: I'm curious to ask, what did you delve into what

1128
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: allowed them to do that here?

1129
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: They said a lot of it came through the leadership,

1130
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 2: Like they said that that was how they were being,

1131
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 2: it's what you're saying, like when you said like they

1132
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 2: were asked to, you're saying, we don't make time to

1133
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 2: focus on these huge issues because they're too busy wondering

1134
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:32,560
Speaker 2: which player played in which position. That they didn't say

1135
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 2: in that way, but that's what they were saying, that

1136
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:39,120
Speaker 2: our leadership encouraged us to think in this way. And

1137
01:04:39,160 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that in twenty years, when your parents

1138
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,439
Speaker 2: have probably killed their parents, that you were standing next

1139
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 2: to each other not worrying about the lineage. That this

1140
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 2: culture was set up. And it was the Europeans who

1141
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,160
Speaker 2: set up part of that anyway, But I just wanted

1142
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 2: to understand from you, like what does it take to

1143
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 2: get to that level of healing, because that's you know,

1144
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 2: people would say, okay, well that's a ten million population.

1145
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 2: To me, that's still a humongous win for the world.

1146
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1147
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 2: I was wondering if you've seen cultures, if you've seen

1148
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: even smaller groups or even living through the war, where

1149
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 2: you've seen that kind of healing before.

1150
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: I don't know how the healing happened in Rwanda. Yeah,

1151
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,720
Speaker 1: really encouraged to hear what you describe here. I think

1152
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 1: at the very least of it, the surfing had to

1153
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: be acknowledged and had to be heard and fully acknowledged,

1154
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,680
Speaker 1: and then the healing can take place without that. It can't,

1155
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:36,200
Speaker 1: of course absolutely, which is why it's so important to

1156
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: understand Toronto, the surfing has to be acknowledged now in

1157
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:43,000
Speaker 1: my country Canada, like when you talked about Rwanda. Of course,

1158
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: that tribal hatred didn't just arise up from nowhere, nor

1159
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:51,360
Speaker 1: is it necessarily in the nature of those people to

1160
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: be like that. A lot of it was the legacy

1161
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: of colonialism that quite deliberately, and you would know something

1162
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 1: about British colonism, quite deliberately said one group against another.

1163
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 1: The legacy of riches often tremendous struggle and hatred and violence.

1164
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: In Canada, as in the United States, the legacy of

1165
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 1: colonism falls fill more, particularly on our indigenous peoples, so

1166
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: that to this day they suffer so much. The addiction

1167
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: rate is much here amongst them. Fifty percent of the

1168
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: women in jail in my country are Indigenous people. They

1169
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,960
Speaker 1: make up five percent of the population. Wow, an Indigenous

1170
01:06:32,000 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: woman six times the rate of rumor toltritis. They never

1171
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: used to rum with detritis prior to colonization. There's been

1172
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 1: some apologies in Canadian history, but there's been not sufficient

1173
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: acknowledgment of what actually happened and what continues to happen.

1174
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: And I'm saying that an essential condition for that healing

1175
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: would have to be acknowledgment. So the pop came to

1176
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:03,720
Speaker 1: Canada just maybe peaks ago because the church cooperated with

1177
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: the state to abduct children from their homes, Indigenous children

1178
01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: from their homes for over one hundred years into the

1179
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, into these residential schools where Native children Banola

1180
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: have to see their parents, where their culture was extirpated.

1181
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: They had pins stuck in their tongue if they spoke

1182
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: their tribal language. They were sexually abused, often they died,

1183
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 1: they were physically abused, they were starved, and the pope

1184
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: came and apologized, and you know what the apology was,

1185
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,240
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for what some Christians did to your people.

1186
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: Well that's he means well as a person. But that

1187
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: was an apology uttered by an institution, because it wasn't

1188
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 1: or it should have been uttered by the institution. But

1189
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 1: they said what some Christians wasn't some Christians. It was

1190
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 1: the state, and it was the church and what I'm

1191
01:07:56,720 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 1: saying is that was the good first step, But until

1192
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: there's full acknowledgment and we are fully willing to hear

1193
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 1: the suffering of the people that we hurt. And that's

1194
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 1: why in the twelve steps, whether they do they do,

1195
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 1: it is moral inventory. How did we hurt somebody? And

1196
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:17,240
Speaker 1: how can we without imposing on them? How can we

1197
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: acknowledge if that's appropriate? So I think for healing, whether

1198
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 1: for myself or people that I've heard, there has to

1199
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,760
Speaker 1: be acknowledgment of the suffering itself. I think that's the

1200
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:31,839
Speaker 1: first essential stuff.

1201
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 2: The challenge we have though, right in society is that

1202
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 2: I fully agree with you, but for most people we

1203
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:45,600
Speaker 2: will never get the apology we deserve because again, we

1204
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 2: live in an unheald environment where people are not coming

1205
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 2: out of the woodwork and saying I'm so sorry for

1206
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 2: what happened, and even if they do, it's a bad

1207
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,080
Speaker 2: apology or an incomplete apology or a ten percent apology.

1208
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 2: How do we function in a world where often the

1209
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 2: closure doesn't come from the person who hurt us or

1210
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: the person who created the wound, or that we receive

1211
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,360
Speaker 2: the wound through. And it really comes down to us

1212
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 2: that's true.

1213
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I work a lot with indigenous groups in Canada.

1214
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: When they asked me to and first of all, I

1215
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: often say, who the hell am I to offer your device?

1216
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,879
Speaker 1: Because in your traditions there's so much healing and wisdom,

1217
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,560
Speaker 1: so that the best advice I can give you a

1218
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 1: star follow your own traditions. But I often say to

1219
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,880
Speaker 1: them as well, don't wait for the acknowledgment from the

1220
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 1: government or from society, because it's going to take a

1221
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 1: long time coming. But you need to acknowledge your own suffering.

1222
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: You need to acknowledge your own pain. And then there's

1223
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 1: so many rituals. There's so many traditions, the dance and

1224
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 1: the chanting and the drumming and the sweat lodgers and

1225
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: the sun dancing, and they're going back to the land

1226
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:06,920
Speaker 1: and the wisdom circles and they restorative justice. There's so

1227
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: much wisdom. So what I'm saying to people is acknowledge

1228
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 1: you on suffering, but to look to the wisdom within

1229
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: to vote to healing. And it's there that wisdom to

1230
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 1: heal is inside cultures, in society, peoples, and inside individuals.

1231
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,640
Speaker 1: So we both have to acknowledge the suffering and not

1232
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: get stuck on it. Yeah, but then to look for

1233
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 1: the healing capacity within. Yeah. And you certainly can't wait

1234
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: for the world to It's nice, but you can't wait

1235
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 1: for it otherwise you're dependent on somebody else for your healing.

1236
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:45,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I feel like when you're healing, most apologies

1237
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 2: are dissatisfying when you're healed or and we'll talk about

1238
01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:51,639
Speaker 2: that what that means. But I feel like when you're

1239
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 2: more along the process of healing, you can receive an apology,

1240
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 2: you can receive a vulnerable piece of information from someone

1241
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 2: who may have you are. But when you're when you're

1242
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 2: in the thick of the healing process, I find that

1243
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: validation and apologies rarely really feel that good, you know.

1244
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 2: And I'm saying that for myself. I know that when

1245
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 2: I've worked, when I've been in the thick of like

1246
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 2: working really hard in my life or trying to make

1247
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:18,200
Speaker 2: something happen, and someone says, yeah, you're doing great, it

1248
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: doesn't feel like anything because you almost feel missing. You

1249
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 2: don't feel fully understood. It doesn't make sense yeah seeing you, Yeah,

1250
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 2: and you don't feel seen.

1251
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 1: I don't feel seen. They've seen some aspect of you. Yeah,

1252
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 1: but we need to be seen. That's that's a human need.

1253
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: There's a psychotherapist here in California.

1254
01:11:37,520 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 2: But Egger, yeah, absolutely, yeah, I know it is. Yeah.

1255
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: So I Edith was on the same train probably or

1256
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: quite likely on the same train to Ashwist that my

1257
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:52,800
Speaker 1: grandparents were, along with her family. She's in her nineties now.

1258
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: She describes because they came from the same town in

1259
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:01,840
Speaker 1: southern Slovakia and northern Hungary. Her parents were killed in

1260
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: our shirts, as were our grandparents. Edith describes in run

1261
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: of her books that she goes back to the Berghoff,

1262
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,280
Speaker 1: which is in the Breve in Alps, where Hitler lived,

1263
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:16,040
Speaker 1: to forgive Hitler, which is not to say to make

1264
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 1: it okay what he did, but to release him from

1265
01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: the cage that she kept inside her own heart because

1266
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,640
Speaker 1: that limited her. So the forgiveness wasn't it's okay what

1267
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,639
Speaker 1: you did. The forgiveness was I was going to hold

1268
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,880
Speaker 1: his hatred and this resentment in me anymore, but just

1269
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: limiting me, you know. So the work really is internal.

1270
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:38,679
Speaker 2: Where do you see the connections between you talked about

1271
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:41,519
Speaker 2: the you know, the practices and the healing of the

1272
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 2: indigenous people et cetera. How much do you see a

1273
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 2: connection between spirituality and healing? And where has it gone

1274
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: right and where does it sometimes go wrong?

1275
01:12:49,040 --> 01:12:51,160
Speaker 1: So, first of all, spirituality is one of these words

1276
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: that again gets thrown around. It gets thrown around to

1277
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: who knows what somebody means when they talk about it. Yeah,

1278
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: So we can only talk about it in terms of

1279
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:01,479
Speaker 1: what you mean by it, yeah, and what I mean

1280
01:13:01,520 --> 01:13:01,760
Speaker 1: by it.

1281
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: So, Yeah, I liked what you said that there are

1282
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 2: ancient traditions, yeah, that focus heavily on inner healing.

1283
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and.

1284
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:13,479
Speaker 2: I all explain my chain. The challenge I see is

1285
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 2: that often even these ancient, timeless traditions have now become

1286
01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 2: externalized and institutionalized. So they've lost their purity of the

1287
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: inner healing that's.

1288
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 1: Required, and they've become commodified, correct, right, Yeah, which is

1289
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:26,839
Speaker 1: what will happen in the material of society.

1290
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1291
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: I spend time with some Indigenous people earlier this year

1292
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 1: in a ceremony. What I was struck by is a deep, deep,

1293
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 1: deep connection with nature. In fact, even the connection is

1294
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: inadequate a word. I'm talking about unity, Like they just

1295
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:45,560
Speaker 1: felt so life. They have a blade of grass, and

1296
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: every tree and the mountain that overlooked our ceremony and

1297
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:56,480
Speaker 1: the bison that were in the field. So, for me, spirituality,

1298
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:00,600
Speaker 1: if it means anything at all, it means connection to

1299
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 1: something larger, which is difficult to define and maybe different

1300
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:07,719
Speaker 1: for every person or for every group, but it's something

1301
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:13,720
Speaker 1: beyond the limited confines of both body and the egoing mind. Now,

1302
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:16,360
Speaker 1: I think that's our nature as human beings. I can't

1303
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 1: prove it, but that's my sense and I think and

1304
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 1: certainly when you talk about indigenous traditions, they talk about

1305
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 1: the medicine will, which is the quadrants involved our emotions

1306
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 1: and our physical bodies, and our social relationships and our

1307
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 1: spiritual selves. And we have to be sort of grounded

1308
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:37,800
Speaker 1: in all four of those quadrants to be fully whole.

1309
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: So I think there's something in that spirituality that is

1310
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 1: really essential to us. What that is, I think each

1311
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: person has to discover for themselves if they don't have

1312
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: a tradition that already grounds them in it.

1313
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're reminding me of my time that I

1314
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 2: spent with some groups in Hawaii and they had a

1315
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 2: song for the Sun and the sea, and they had

1316
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,280
Speaker 2: a beautiful ritual where when a child is born the

1317
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:04,840
Speaker 2: umbilical cord is placed on the earth, and then they

1318
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 2: carve almost like a pattern there to remind the child

1319
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 2: that this is your connection to the earth. That I

1320
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 2: always thought that was such a beautiful ritual. I was

1321
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,479
Speaker 2: wondering whether you've seen, or whether you've looked at a

1322
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 2: tool any aspects of reincarnation or past lives or trauma,

1323
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 2: cross lives, or seen any connections or study in that space.

1324
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:27,880
Speaker 1: I've had people talk to me about their experiences. And

1325
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 1: there's a rabbi i am at once who told me

1326
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 1: that in ancient times he was a beast in Egypt. Well,

1327
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 1: it was in no way lunatic, you know, or a psychotic.

1328
01:15:39,320 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 1: He was a big, grounded, lovely man. You know. He

1329
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 1: was convinced. My mind doesn't go there. I've read something

1330
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 1: about these traditions, you know, the Tibetan tradition of the Bardo,

1331
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 1: and you probably don't know a lot more, but I do.

1332
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 1: But I have not personally experienced it, and my mind,

1333
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 1: as I've experienced my mind so far has fund of

1334
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 1: space for knowing what that really means. I understand it intellectually, yes, yes, yes,

1335
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:09,680
Speaker 1: but there's nothing in me resonates with it as far

1336
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:11,800
Speaker 1: as I can recognize. Now, maybe at some point I

1337
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 1: have some huge awakening, or maybe after I died, there'll

1338
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 1: be a huge joke on me. You know, you didn't

1339
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 1: believe very well here it is. But frankly, right now,

1340
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 1: if you ask me, i'd say nothing in me goes

1341
01:16:23,920 --> 01:16:27,160
Speaker 1: there or even wants to. That's my really, that's my truth.

1342
01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:30,000
Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that. Yeah, no, no, I always find

1343
01:16:30,000 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 2: it fascinating for people who study trauma, especially when we

1344
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 2: when you, as you said that you know, no, no

1345
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:39,599
Speaker 2: child starts at a blank slate. They start with makeup

1346
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,759
Speaker 2: to some degree, and so that's why I was intrigued.

1347
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:46,439
Speaker 2: But doctor Mattai, it has been. It's been so beautiful

1348
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 2: talking to you because I feel like I get to

1349
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:54,280
Speaker 2: ask you questions that I wouldn't often receive the answers

1350
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:56,360
Speaker 2: and the quality of answers, the depth of answers that

1351
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 2: you can provide. I see you as a true elder,

1352
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 2: a wise person in our society, and I respect you

1353
01:17:02,439 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 2: a lot for that.

1354
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:05,439
Speaker 1: Well, thanks so much. I can tell you quite honestly

1355
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:07,519
Speaker 1: that this is not an interview like I've ever read before.

1356
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

1357
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 2: No, well, thank you and I hope this is the

1358
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:12,600
Speaker 2: first of many, and I want to make sure that

1359
01:17:12,680 --> 01:17:15,200
Speaker 2: everyone has been listening and watching. I would love for

1360
01:17:15,280 --> 01:17:18,599
Speaker 2: you to order a copy right now of The Myth

1361
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:22,759
Speaker 2: of Normal Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic culture.

1362
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 2: We touched on subject matter from within the book. We

1363
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 2: touched on ideas from within the book, but as you

1364
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 2: can see, these are my favorite books. You know, it's

1365
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:35,599
Speaker 2: a real deep study book. Please go grab a copy.

1366
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 2: I cannot recommend this more. I will be posting from

1367
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:40,880
Speaker 2: the book as I read more deeply through it as

1368
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:42,599
Speaker 2: well on my Instagram, so if you want to see

1369
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 2: my notes or takeaways then they'll be there as well.

1370
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 2: And please please please follow doctor Mattey on Instagram as well.

1371
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:52,040
Speaker 2: We will put the links in the show notes. Follow

1372
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 2: him share all the insights that you got from this.

1373
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:55,439
Speaker 2: If there was something that stood out, I mean, there

1374
01:17:55,439 --> 01:17:59,479
Speaker 2: were so many beautiful descriptions of words, definitions, clarity between

1375
01:17:59,560 --> 01:18:02,720
Speaker 2: ideas that I think have just just words that we

1376
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 2: use every day and we don't know what they mean.

1377
01:18:04,800 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 2: So if something stood out to you, tag me and

1378
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 2: Dr Mattery on Instagram, on Twitter, on TikTok let us

1379
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 2: know what you've learned and what you've taken away, and

1380
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:14,959
Speaker 2: I promise you that this will be a great investment

1381
01:18:15,000 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 2: this year. Dodr Matay, Is there anything that I haven't

1382
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 2: asked you before? We ask you the final five, which

1383
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 2: are our fast five questions. Is there anything you'd like

1384
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 2: to share that I have given you an opportunity.

1385
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: I can't think of anything that you evern us.

1386
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:30,680
Speaker 2: I love it. Okay, Well, these are five questions that

1387
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 2: have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum,

1388
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 2: so you have like a very tight like almost think

1389
01:18:35,800 --> 01:18:38,599
Speaker 2: of like Twitter. These are your final five. The first

1390
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 2: question is what is the best advice you've ever received

1391
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:43,839
Speaker 2: on healing or trauma?

1392
01:18:44,240 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 1: Authenticity?

1393
01:18:45,439 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 2: Expand. I'm going to ask you to expand because I

1394
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:47,360
Speaker 2: want to hear.

1395
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 1: Now be yourself. You know when I was a very

1396
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:54,680
Speaker 1: confused young man and I was acting out all over

1397
01:18:54,720 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 1: the place, iron end yourself is a very traumatized person.

1398
01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 1: She was an is Show survivor and she came back

1399
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:06,599
Speaker 1: weighing eighty pounds. She was an aptomologist, and she saw

1400
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: me being an authentic and she quoted she sent me

1401
01:19:09,360 --> 01:19:13,040
Speaker 1: this passage from Hamlet, that famous phrase unto yourself, be

1402
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,280
Speaker 1: true and it follows as night to day that the

1403
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:18,760
Speaker 1: dog can't be false to any man. So be true

1404
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 1: to yourself without going to the details. That porent of

1405
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: mind couldn't be true to herself because of the nature

1406
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:29,240
Speaker 1: of this culture. But that advice has always stated with me. Yeah,

1407
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 1: the authenticity has been a major theme in my life.

1408
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:34,840
Speaker 2: It's amazing. I love that. That's a great answer, okay.

1409
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,240
Speaker 2: Question number two, what's the worst advice you've ever heard

1410
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 2: or received around trauma healing?

1411
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:42,240
Speaker 1: Is it okay? If nothing comes up for me?

1412
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:44,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you've never had any bad advice, that's good.

1413
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 2: What is something that you once valued that you no

1414
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 2: longer value?

1415
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 1: This is almost true what other people think of me. Yeah,

1416
01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: I'd be lying if I said, But at the same time,

1417
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:00,599
Speaker 1: I can do without it, So still there, but I'm

1418
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 1: not attached to it.

1419
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 2: Question number four, how would you define your current purpose

1420
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: in life?

1421
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: My purposes that people are free be from limitations of

1422
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: culture and also the limitations of their own past and

1423
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: of their own minds, and also free politically. So my

1424
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 1: purposes that people are free.

1425
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,519
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. And the fifth and final question, if you

1426
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 2: could create one law that everyone in the world had

1427
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 2: to follow. What would it be one rule, one rule,

1428
01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:32,680
Speaker 2: one law, one principle that everyone in the world had

1429
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 2: to follow.

1430
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 1: If I was coercing and creating the impression that one

1431
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: had to do anything that already would defeats its own purpose,

1432
01:20:40,479 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 1: because as soon as somebody has to, it's almost like

1433
01:20:44,479 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 1: just lean forward for a minute, would you, yeah, and

1434
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:49,080
Speaker 1: put on your hand, What do you do? As soon

1435
01:20:49,080 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 1: as I push on your hands? Resist us this? So

1436
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:53,720
Speaker 1: as soon as people's sense that there's a had to,

1437
01:20:54,200 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 1: there's going to be a resistance. So I want to

1438
01:20:56,160 --> 01:20:56,920
Speaker 1: decline answering that.

1439
01:20:57,280 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 2: That's a great answer. We've never had that on the show.

1440
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 2: I love that answer. That's a brilliant answer. That's fantastic.

1441
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:05,400
Speaker 2: I love I love the way you think the myth

1442
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 2: of normal is out right now trauma, illness and healing

1443
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 2: in a toxic culture. Doctor Gabbo matte Uh, it's been

1444
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:13,840
Speaker 2: an honor. Thank you so much, it's been so much fun,

1445
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:14,360
Speaker 2: and we'll do it

1446
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 1: Again absolutely, thank you, thank you, thank you.