Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to bokate F Daily with
Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the home Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: you know that I am a former educator and that
Speaker 1: my background has been in education and education policy, and
Speaker 1: the reason for that is because I really care one
Speaker 1: about kids, but also believe that an educated citizen try
Speaker 1: is the foundation to a healthy democracy, and our democracy
Speaker 1: can only be as healthy as our youth are. And
Speaker 1: so on today's show, I get into a conversation with
Speaker 1: the child psychiatrist, doctor Jess Shatkin, and I talk to him,
Speaker 1: you know, about a lot of things that have been
Speaker 1: on my mind. You know, for one, I say that
Speaker 1: I get nervous at the beginning of every school year,
Speaker 1: probably since to be honest, you know, new Town, that
Speaker 1: I get worried about how many headlines we are going
Speaker 1: to see, how many young people we are going to
Speaker 1: see pictures of on nightly news who have been robbed
Speaker 1: of their futures due to gun violence, due to school shootings.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think about the impact that the
Speaker 1: stressors that we are all taking in as adults on
Speaker 1: a regular basis following the news, following the headlines of
Speaker 1: One day it's a devastation in Maui. Another day it's
Speaker 1: a devastation in Florida. Another day it is a shooting
Speaker 1: at a dollar store. Another day it's a grocery store,
Speaker 1: an authoritarian takeover. Another day it's books being taken away
Speaker 1: in band or you know, threats being made. Every day,
Speaker 1: it is something, and the stress and our cortisol levels,
Speaker 1: I think as a nation are at an all time
Speaker 1: high without much ease, insight, and that feeling, that anxiousness,
Speaker 1: that fear seeps into our children. Right, And so I
Speaker 1: talk today with doctor Shatkin about what are some of
Speaker 1: the things that we can be doing right, whether or
Speaker 1: not you're a teacher or an administrator, if you are
Speaker 1: a parent, if you are an uncle or an aunt
Speaker 1: or a godparent, what are some of the tools, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the things that we can be thinking about
Speaker 1: to ensure that yes, you know, kids understand that bad,
Speaker 1: terrible things can happen, right, but that we will do
Speaker 1: our best to keep them safe, and you know, and
Speaker 1: they can do their best to keep themselves safe and
Speaker 1: keep their community well and give them some agency in
Speaker 1: what is happening around them. And so today's conversation is
Speaker 1: about just that, really understanding what kids are going through,
Speaker 1: how they are feeling, and how as the adults in
Speaker 1: their lives, we can do a better job of ensuring,
Speaker 1: particularly that the people that we are electing actually give
Speaker 1: a damn about their wellbeing and don't just see children
Speaker 1: as a problem or as a political football or a stunt,
Speaker 1: but are really creating policies that are about their future
Speaker 1: and their well being. Coming up next, my conversation with
Speaker 1: doctor Jess Shatkin, Folks, I am very happy to welcome
Speaker 1: to OKF Daily for the very first time, doctor Jess Shatkin,
Speaker 1: who is a child psychiatrist and a professor at NYU
Speaker 1: School of Medicine, to talk about something that I find,
Speaker 1: you know, regularly really important to bring up to all
Speaker 1: of you, which is the health and well being of
Speaker 1: America's children youth students. Doctor Shaftan, let me start with this,
Speaker 1: when you come across a lot of these headlines right
Speaker 1: that every American reads about the unc shooting and lockdown
Speaker 1: that just took place at Chapel Hill, the shooting that
Speaker 1: took place in Nashville at the return of every school year,
Speaker 1: right end of August beginning of September, I get a
Speaker 1: nod in my stomach about what this school year is
Speaker 1: going to have in store for America's children, and so,
Speaker 1: you know, as a as a child psychiatrist, I want
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on how you feel at the
Speaker 1: start of every school year knowing that there is danger ahead.
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me on, Danielle, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Feel free to call me Jess. I agree with you
Speaker 2: that it is extraordinarily troubling that we have so many
Speaker 2: shootings and that we're so aware of them. I'm glad
Speaker 2: we're aware of them. If we're going to have them,
Speaker 2: I think it's important that we hear about them and
Speaker 2: be prepared. I think one of the things that it does, however,
Speaker 2: because school is still the safest place for our kids
Speaker 2: to be because compared to how many people go to school,
Speaker 2: while these shootings and these incidents are horrendous, it doesn't
Speaker 2: happen to the vast, vast, vast majority of people, and
Speaker 2: most of us are not affected directly by it other
Speaker 2: than this not in the stomach you describe. So I
Speaker 2: still think schools are safe. I still think schools are
Speaker 2: where we need to send kids. I think we need
Speaker 2: to do a better job of managing access to violent
Speaker 2: means and keeping an eye on our schools and keeping
Speaker 2: things safe. I'm a big advocate for gun control, but
Speaker 2: you can't work with kids and not be There's just
Speaker 2: no way that you can't be an advocate for gun control.
Speaker 2: I can't think of a logical reason that most people
Speaker 2: need an assault weapon or a handgun. But those are
Speaker 2: other issues that you know, maybe we do it don't
Speaker 2: talk about. But I don't worry as the school year
Speaker 2: starts because I'm a hopeful person. I think that's why
Speaker 2: I do the work that I do. I'm excited by fall.
Speaker 2: I always like when the kids are back in school,
Speaker 2: and I mean I like summer too, but I like
Speaker 2: when the kids are going back to school and I'm
Speaker 2: talking to the teachers. I also am a professor at
Speaker 2: the medical school and at the college at NYU, and
Speaker 2: I like seeing the students and being engaged with them.
Speaker 2: So for me, I'm not troubled by the beginning of school.
Speaker 2: But every day, twice a week it seems I'm hearing
Speaker 2: about a shooting, and that, of course, is extraordinarily troublesome.
Speaker 1: How does it weigh on the minds I guess of
Speaker 1: young people because what I realize. You know, I am
Speaker 1: so very removed. Right as I told you before we
Speaker 1: started recording, I was a teacher, an educator in an
Speaker 1: elementary school. My master's degree is in early childhood education.
Speaker 1: And so I really think about kindergartener's first grader, second
Speaker 1: graders having to go through their shooter drills, active shooter drills.
Speaker 1: I think about the guidelines and protocols that are being
Speaker 1: put in place, but what fear that conjures in young people?
Speaker 1: And so I just want to get an understanding of
Speaker 1: while we live in a society that requires this type
Speaker 1: of preparation, what does this type of preparation do to
Speaker 1: you to young kids?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't know that we know, first of all,
Speaker 2: because these aren't the kind of things that we study.
Speaker 2: And also some of this is new, right, We're just
Speaker 2: starting to get a sense of these things going on.
Speaker 2: I think for most kids, though, knowing kids as I
Speaker 2: do and having been around them my whole life, I
Speaker 2: think think that most kids probably tolerate this as just
Speaker 2: another like a fire drill, an earthquake drill. You know,
Speaker 2: when I was a kid growing up in California. We
Speaker 2: had to get under our desks for fire drills and
Speaker 2: earthquake drills regularly. Sorry it was a fire drills, you outside,
Speaker 2: earthquake you get under desk. And we also had nuclear
Speaker 2: bomb attack drills too, and we would joke about them
Speaker 2: and make fun of them, as kids do. The kids
Speaker 2: who are bothered by those things generally tend to be
Speaker 2: kids who have already experienced trauma. And so if you've
Speaker 2: already experienced trauma in your life, then seeing the repeated
Speaker 2: media replays of the violent episodes, the fires, the earthquakes,
Speaker 2: the shootings, that is troubling for kids much more often
Speaker 2: if those kids have been exposed to trauma already of
Speaker 2: any sort, if they're stuffering from post traumatic stress. So
Speaker 2: those are the kids that we really worry about.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: We worried a lot about nine to eleven, and we
Speaker 2: had a big intervention at NYU in downtown Manhattan after
Speaker 2: nine to eleven, and we went into all these schools
Speaker 2: and we had these programs that went on for about
Speaker 2: a decade, and what we learned was that most kids,
Speaker 2: even kids who were there when it happened, you know,
Speaker 2: when the buildings fell, they were not traumatized. They didn't
Speaker 2: have PTSD, they weren't upset about going back to school.
Speaker 2: But those kids who had had trauma in their lives already,
Speaker 2: those kids who had been abused, those kids who had
Speaker 2: suffered or seen someone in their family suffer, those kids
Speaker 2: were bothered. So I think it's probably the same sort
Speaker 2: of thing now in certain neighborhoods, more impoverished neighborhoods, more
Speaker 2: minoritized neighborhoods. There you're going to see kids who have
Speaker 2: had more exposure to trauma in their life on average,
Speaker 2: who are in environments where their glocal cordicoord levels or
Speaker 2: stress levels are high to begin with, and so those
Speaker 2: kids might be more bothered by that too, But it's
Speaker 2: hard to know, and we don't study those things directly,
Speaker 2: So it doesn't have an impact on the vulnerable kids
Speaker 2: for sure, but how much it's hard to say.
Speaker 1: What are some of the remedies. If I am a parent,
Speaker 1: I'm a caregiver, I'm a teacher that is listening to this,
Speaker 1: and you know, I can remember I was at the
Speaker 1: time of Katrina right there, and I'm trying to think.
Speaker 1: I'm like, was it Katrina or was it another storm?
Speaker 1: That had happened, And I remember that my first and
Speaker 1: second graders were terrified, like they you know, their parents
Speaker 1: were watching the news and they're seeing all of this
Speaker 1: water coming in and they're seeing little kids like them,
Speaker 1: you know, grab their you know, grab their belongings, and
Speaker 1: they were terrified, and they wanted to talk about it
Speaker 1: and understand like, am I safe? Will I be safe?
Speaker 1: How can we help those people? Because children are naturally empathetic, right,
Speaker 1: and less taught not to be. And so I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: what are some of the ways that if you are
Speaker 1: a parent, a caregiver, a teacher, and a child or
Speaker 1: classroom of children is wanting to talk about these things
Speaker 1: as a means to calm you know, their their systems
Speaker 1: and their imaginations. What are some of the of the
Speaker 1: tools that you would advise.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the cognitive piece, the learning piece, is
Speaker 2: just framing it. And we do this around any anxiety.
Speaker 2: So if someone has post traumatic s cress disorder, which
Speaker 2: is a type of anxiety, it's not trivial, but it's
Speaker 2: an anxious reaction or response to something that happened to you.
Speaker 2: What we do is we look at the risks, we say, well,
Speaker 2: what is the likelihood that you're actually going to be
Speaker 2: in an incident with a shooter, And the likelihood is very,
Speaker 2: very low. And I don't have the numbers in front
Speaker 2: of me, but if we were to, although these episodes
Speaker 2: happen sometimes two or three times a week in our
Speaker 2: country when we hear about them, still the likelihood that
Speaker 2: any one of us will be in an environment where
Speaker 2: that happens is remarkably low. And so I think you
Speaker 2: frame that as best you can for kids, and kids
Speaker 2: can understand that differently at different ages. So high school
Speaker 2: student can understand the numbers, whereas a kid in elementary
Speaker 2: school wouldn't understand the numbers. But you tell them basically
Speaker 2: that school is still the safest place to be. This
Speaker 2: is the place where we learn, This is the place
Speaker 2: where we engage with each other, where we have activities,
Speaker 2: where we have fun and support, and teachers are here.
Speaker 2: And if parents aren't squeezing their can the hand of
Speaker 2: their child desperately as they drop them up in school
Speaker 2: and they say be safe, honey, it's okay, it's okay,
Speaker 2: be brave. When a parent does that, that imbuse fear
Speaker 2: into the child. So the parent needs to correspondingly have confidence.
Speaker 2: It's the same thing as when you drop a kid
Speaker 2: off the kindergarten or preschool. You know, a lot of
Speaker 2: parents who themselves have separation anxiety or other anxieties will
Speaker 2: be very holding on to their kids, and the kids
Speaker 2: get anxious. But if you let your child go, if
Speaker 2: you let your child know that this is the place
Speaker 2: to be, it's all good. The kids almost always adapt
Speaker 2: to that well, and when they don't, we have a
Speaker 2: few ways to help them with that. But I think
Speaker 2: a lot of this is us as teachers and clinicians
Speaker 2: basically being matter of fact about the place and what's
Speaker 2: happens there and this is how it goes, and parents
Speaker 2: being relaxed enough themselves to let their kids go. And again,
Speaker 2: for parents who might be listening, the risk that your
Speaker 2: child will be in one of these incidents in general
Speaker 2: is remarkably low. It's much more likely they'll get hurt
Speaker 2: in an automobile accident that they will be hurt in
Speaker 2: a household actiscident, that something terrible will happen. So the
Speaker 2: media is on top of this now, in part because
Speaker 2: I think it's mostly the more progressive media who's trying
Speaker 2: to say listen, we need gun control. This is happening
Speaker 2: so much. A lot of this stuff has always happened.
Speaker 2: You know, in the seventies when I was growing up,
Speaker 2: there were tons of kidnappings. We have very few kidnappings now,
Speaker 2: it's not really a common thing, but there's a lot
Speaker 2: of kidnappings back in the seventies where you know, and
Speaker 2: sometimes it wasn't always like some organization. It might just
Speaker 2: be a father who takes a child from a home
Speaker 2: or and isn't living with the homer, it doesn't have custody.
Speaker 2: But those things happen. It used to happen an awful
Speaker 2: lot more than they do now. And it wasn't until
Speaker 2: we started advertising them on the milk cartons that people
Speaker 2: became sort of savvy about it, and then people came
Speaker 2: very concerned about it, and then our anxiety started to
Speaker 2: lead us around a little bit. It's not that we
Speaker 2: should be cavalier and not acknowledge that these things happen.
Speaker 2: It's important we acknowledge it. It's also important to realize
Speaker 2: that most everybody is safe, most all of the time,
Speaker 2: and we can do more to short that good feeling up,
Speaker 2: not by acting in denial, but by normalizing it. Bad
Speaker 2: things happen sometimes, It's absolutely true. Uh, we do everything
Speaker 2: we can to keep you safe. We do everything we
Speaker 2: can to enjoy our time here and to learn together.
Speaker 2: Let's have parents on the same page, and let's let
Speaker 2: our kids go to school. If the school is unsafe,
Speaker 2: if the neighborhoods unsafe, that's a different story.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to talk about the cortisol levels
Speaker 1: for a minute, because you you've brought it up before
Speaker 1: earlier in our conversation, and you know, it's something that
Speaker 1: I think about on a regular basis. My mother is
Speaker 1: a is a is a retired nurse, and is a
Speaker 1: is a yogi and on a yoga studio. So it's
Speaker 1: something that a daughter that is in politics on a
Speaker 1: regular basis, whose cortisol levels are quite high. Can you
Speaker 1: talk to us about, you know, us as as as
Speaker 1: adults that are really living you know, at a at
Speaker 1: a heightened state, and like you're saying, can bring that
Speaker 1: in to the the kind of the understand you know,
Speaker 1: bring that into the home, bring that in to our
Speaker 1: connections with young people, and so talk to us about
Speaker 1: what happens with the stressor and then why it's important
Speaker 1: to kind of bring those levels down given what we're
Speaker 1: all seeing, right and how we're all tapped in on
Speaker 1: a regular basis.
Speaker 2: So, cortisol is a remarkable and wonderfully protective hormone that
Speaker 2: is released by our adrenal glands which sit on top
Speaker 2: of our kidneys, and when we are stressed out, cortisol
Speaker 2: levels are released in higher amounts. It's a natural, normal hormone.
Speaker 2: It does all sorts of things for us to help
Speaker 2: protect us. It helps with managing some of our fight
Speaker 2: flight and freeze sort of protections. It's important for getting
Speaker 2: us ready for managing any stressor that happens in our life.
Speaker 2: And it can basically help us feel less pain, and
Speaker 2: be more strong and muscular, and be more acutely focused,
Speaker 2: and all these kinds of things that can make us
Speaker 2: at times almost superhuman, so we can get through the
Speaker 2: stressors that we face. But unabated high levels of cortisol
Speaker 2: are also released when people are stressed, and that makes sense,
Speaker 2: and so the levels stay high. And when they stay high,
Speaker 2: although they protect us and they allow us to sort
Speaker 2: of be ready for any disaster or any possibility that
Speaker 2: can happen, they also have a wear and tear effect
Speaker 2: on our bodies because you can't maintain that high cortisol
Speaker 2: without some pain. That pain would be high blood pressure,
Speaker 2: that pain would be a rapid pulse. That pain would
Speaker 2: be irritability, agitation, anxiety, and so those things. While again
Speaker 2: it's protective and helpful for us, if you are a
Speaker 2: child that's say, growing up an impoverished neighborhood and you're
Speaker 2: an unsafe school and you have an unsafe route to school,
Speaker 2: but you've got to go by yourself, and you live
Speaker 2: in a disorganized and violent area, then your levels of
Speaker 2: cortisol are high, and you're primed always for disaster because
Speaker 2: you hear sirens at night and your sleep is disrupted
Speaker 2: and always have a great night of sleep. And you
Speaker 2: also have a great meal every day because the food
Speaker 2: is little insecure and you're not sure that you are
Speaker 2: you're not warm enough for the cold days and cool
Speaker 2: enough for the hot days, and so your body is
Speaker 2: always sort of primed for any kind of urgent situation,
Speaker 2: and that wears you down. That leads to higher rates
Speaker 2: of anxiety, drug abuse, school drop out, Your behaviors around
Speaker 2: like things like early pregnancy or getting involved with a
Speaker 2: rough group as much higher you're risk with age of obesity, hypertension,
Speaker 2: heart disease. You know, these people who are in these
Speaker 2: environments die on average twenty to thirty years earlier because
Speaker 2: of these high levels of court is all that take
Speaker 2: a toll on their body, causes their circulation to break down,
Speaker 2: increases the likelihood of diabetes, makes them not very efficient
Speaker 2: at processing glucose. Pancreas doesn't work as well, or insulin
Speaker 2: isn't as effective. So there's all sorts of things that
Speaker 2: we've learned in the past three decades or so about this,
Speaker 2: and so we're cautious about it. And on a very
Speaker 2: micro level, if you're a kid in school and you
Speaker 2: go to a typical school, well, there are some kids,
Speaker 2: of course who are bathing in cortisol all the time
Speaker 2: because their environments are unsafe. There's abuse in the home,
Speaker 2: someone's in and out of jail, there's drugs in the home,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of instability in the home. They live
Speaker 2: in a poor area, whatever it is. And so those
Speaker 2: kids go to school primed for fights, primed for tension.
Speaker 2: And those kids, we actually know that when you show
Speaker 2: those kids even an ambivalent face, you're walking down the
Speaker 2: hall and You're not one of these kids who's affected
Speaker 2: by this. You're a typical kid, but you don't, you know,
Speaker 2: you just have a sort of a straight face on
Speaker 2: or maybe you smile a certain way, which a lot
Speaker 2: of kids would interpret as awkward, weird, ambivalent, unsure, or
Speaker 2: even friendly. Some of these kids who are primed for
Speaker 2: disasters see that as a violent face or a threatening face,
Speaker 2: and they get agitated and they respond to it. These
Speaker 2: kids get into more fights, These kids get into more detentions,
Speaker 2: these kids get kicked out of school, and all that
Speaker 2: stuff sets them up for all the other things I
Speaker 2: was talking about, you know, bad food, lower income paying jobs,
Speaker 2: earlier pregnancy, more drug use, likelihood of being incarcerated. So
Speaker 2: all of this stuff works in and it becomes this
Speaker 2: big stew. Cortisol is not the only thing here, but
Speaker 2: it's a big part of our biological response that leads
Speaker 2: to uh OR as a result of these exposures and
Speaker 2: then leads to more problems.
Speaker 1: You know, I think about that in all the ways
Speaker 1: that you just layered. You know, the issues that students are,
Speaker 1: that students can face, and I think a lot about
Speaker 1: how the response is that the student is the problem
Speaker 1: as opposed to the environment is the problem, right, And
Speaker 1: the environment is the problem because we don't invest in
Speaker 1: the ways that we should to pro to make what
Speaker 1: is quote unquote typical for some to be the actual
Speaker 1: norm for everyone. Right. That when you have environments that
Speaker 1: are are riddled with these with these issues that are
Speaker 1: societal issues that are ignored, the effects then become domino
Speaker 1: right from youth all the way into adult. And I
Speaker 1: think that that is something that is really important for
Speaker 1: us to think about when we think about again what
Speaker 1: kind of elected officials we are putting in place and
Speaker 1: where their priorities are. Before I let you go, I
Speaker 1: do want I just punctuate, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Please, I punctuate what you just said. Though. What you
Speaker 2: just said is something we've known for years. It's what
Speaker 2: our best interventions do. We take kids who are in disorganized, crowded,
Speaker 2: unhealthy environments and we enhance their environment somehow. Maybe it's
Speaker 2: at school, maybe it's at home. Sometimes it means a
Speaker 2: certain type of foster care or placement. But whatever it
Speaker 2: is that we do, when we move them into an
Speaker 2: environment that is structured for them, that gives them a
Speaker 2: reliable way to learn, a reliable sort of behavioral patterns
Speaker 2: where they're waking around the same time and going to
Speaker 2: sleep around the same time, and they're eating healthy meals,
Speaker 2: and they're getting exercise, and they're getting teachers who identify
Speaker 2: their learning difficulties and support them if they have them.
Speaker 2: When we do that, people get better. They may still
Speaker 2: have to press or they may still have ADHD, they
Speaker 2: may still have autism. It doesn't treat all that stuff,
Speaker 2: but it makes them so much less less intensive, and
Speaker 2: some of those things that are triggered by environmental situations
Speaker 2: never show up in the first place, or they're so
Speaker 2: minimal they don't need treatment because they're getting all the
Speaker 2: supports in place that they need. There are a million
Speaker 2: political reasons that we don't always invest in those interventions
Speaker 2: the way we should. Politicians are elected for a few years,
Speaker 2: these things take a number of years to show their benefits,
Speaker 2: but they do have. Every study we've done looking at
Speaker 2: this shows that these are cost effective that if we
Speaker 2: follow them for four or ten, eight years, are multi
Speaker 2: systemic treatment. Things like Boystown. I was just in Boystown
Speaker 2: consulting with them in Omaha, Nebraska. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2: They basically bring these kids into homes, these are foster
Speaker 2: kids or kids who've been in violent environments. They just
Speaker 2: raise them in a safe home with a family where
Speaker 2: they have reliable meals, reliable activities, and the vast majority
Speaker 2: of them do very well and go to college, or
Speaker 2: they go get jobs, they get training. They are kids
Speaker 2: who are able to function very well when taken out
Speaker 2: of a very disruptive vironment or when given the supports
Speaker 2: in that environment that they need. So and a lot
Speaker 2: of this happens not because people are lazy, and not
Speaker 2: because people are bad, as you're suggesting, but because people
Speaker 2: have had well, We've got all sorts of generational trauma.
Speaker 2: We've got genetic changes, we've got racism, we've got poverty,
Speaker 2: and those things really chip away at people and it
Speaker 2: makes it very hard for people to get back on
Speaker 2: their feet. And I think that if we could level
Speaker 2: the playing field, we would see a huge change in
Speaker 2: our population.
Speaker 1: The last question that I want to ask you to
Speaker 1: is the fact that in Texas right now, there are
Speaker 1: many school districts that are gutting their libraries and putting
Speaker 1: in disciplinary centers right that instead of having a place
Speaker 1: for learning, creativity, relaxation. At least, you know that was
Speaker 1: the privilege of the libraries that I grew up going
Speaker 1: to in my school district. They're replacing them with discipline
Speaker 1: and their centers. Just give me your thoughts and response
Speaker 1: to those decisions that are being made in school districts
Speaker 1: also that happen to have predominantly black and brown children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we know that disciplinary action isn't terribly effective.
Speaker 2: We know that expelling kids or even suspending kids from
Speaker 2: school does not result in better behavior. It gives them
Speaker 2: a break, it sends them home and the parents then
Speaker 2: have to deal with them, but it doesn't fix the
Speaker 2: problem they're having at school, and when they come back,
Speaker 2: nothing is changed. It's like taking someone who's addicted to drugs,
Speaker 2: putting them in a thirty day rehabilitation detox program and
Speaker 2: putting them right back in the same place. It doesn't
Speaker 2: make much difference for ninety nine point nine percent of people.
Speaker 2: They stay clean for two weeks and they're back in
Speaker 2: the same problems because they're in the same place and
Speaker 2: nothing is changed in their home environment. Nothing has changed
Speaker 2: with the people they hang out with, or the way
Speaker 2: they earn their living, or the activities they're engaged in.
Speaker 2: So I think that setting up a disciplinary center will
Speaker 2: not teach our kids anything. It will scratch the itch
Speaker 2: of the adults in their lives who are angry and
Speaker 2: are frustrated and say, don't you mess with us. We
Speaker 2: will make you pay for that. But that doesn't change anything,
Speaker 2: and it takes an extraordinary it's natural. We all have
Speaker 2: this natural tendency to want to punish when somebody does
Speaker 2: something wrong. The dog junks on the counter and the
Speaker 2: dog eats your dinner, you're angry at the dog. You
Speaker 2: don't praise the dog for that. But if you hit
Speaker 2: the dog, the dog learns nothing, and if you put
Speaker 2: the dog in a cage, the dog learns nothing. So
Speaker 2: there are ways to teach people and to make behavioral changes.
Speaker 2: We've known about behavioral modification for We've got really good
Speaker 2: data for sixty seventy years on how to raise kids
Speaker 2: with behavioral modification tools. And there's variations on the theme,
Speaker 2: but basically it's positive reinforcement. You know, it's giving and
Speaker 2: leading people and rewarding people for good behavior, and it's
Speaker 2: sometimes punishing a little bit, but the punishment is not
Speaker 2: to be devastating. The punishment is brief, focused on the problem,
Speaker 2: and then we're neutral afterwards, we're not continuing to grind
Speaker 2: them in the ground and make them pay for this
Speaker 2: one act of jumping on the counter food. The dog
Speaker 2: doesn't remember, and a lot of kids, quite frankly, don't remember.
Speaker 2: When you punish a child for more than a day
Speaker 2: by taking something away or taking away their television privileges
Speaker 2: or their phone or whatever, they barely remember what they did.
Speaker 2: They just think of you as a angry you know,
Speaker 2: parent who's exacting a lot of retribution. Punishments when they
Speaker 2: happen should be short and focused on the problem, and
Speaker 2: then we get right back into all the positives and
Speaker 2: the guidance and the structure, because that is what really
Speaker 2: makes a difference, and we have gobs of data on that,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't scratch our own itch of like I'm
Speaker 2: going to make them pay. You know. That's why Rambo
Speaker 2: movies and die Hard they're so they're so unbelievably fulfilling
Speaker 2: for us to watch because the bad guys pay and
Speaker 2: that feels really good. But that's not how the world
Speaker 2: really works. Well that's a fantasy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. Well, doctor Josh shock In, this
Speaker 1: has been a fantastic conversation, and I really appreciate your
Speaker 1: insight and analysis, and I hope that you will join
Speaker 1: us again on WOKF.
Speaker 2: I'm always happy to come back. Thanks for having me, Danielle,
Speaker 2: nice to speak with you.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke
Speaker 1: af AS always, power to the people and to all
Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.