1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to bokate F Daily with 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: me your girl, Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: you know that I am a former educator and that 4 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: my background has been in education and education policy, and 5 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: the reason for that is because I really care one 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: about kids, but also believe that an educated citizen try 7 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: is the foundation to a healthy democracy, and our democracy 8 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: can only be as healthy as our youth are. And 9 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: so on today's show, I get into a conversation with 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: the child psychiatrist, doctor Jess Shatkin, and I talk to him, 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, about a lot of things that have been 12 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: on my mind. You know, for one, I say that 13 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: I get nervous at the beginning of every school year, 14 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: probably since to be honest, you know, new Town, that 15 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: I get worried about how many headlines we are going 16 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: to see, how many young people we are going to 17 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: see pictures of on nightly news who have been robbed 18 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: of their futures due to gun violence, due to school shootings. 19 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: And you know, I think about the impact that the 20 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: stressors that we are all taking in as adults on 21 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: a regular basis following the news, following the headlines of 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: One day it's a devastation in Maui. Another day it's 23 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: a devastation in Florida. Another day it is a shooting 24 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: at a dollar store. Another day it's a grocery store, 25 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: an authoritarian takeover. Another day it's books being taken away 26 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: in band or you know, threats being made. Every day, 27 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: it is something, and the stress and our cortisol levels, 28 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: I think as a nation are at an all time 29 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: high without much ease, insight, and that feeling, that anxiousness, 30 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: that fear seeps into our children. Right, And so I 31 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: talk today with doctor Shatkin about what are some of 32 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 1: the things that we can be doing right, whether or 33 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: not you're a teacher or an administrator, if you are 34 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: a parent, if you are an uncle or an aunt 35 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: or a godparent, what are some of the tools, you know, 36 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: some of the things that we can be thinking about 37 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: to ensure that yes, you know, kids understand that bad, 38 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,119 Speaker 1: terrible things can happen, right, but that we will do 39 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: our best to keep them safe, and you know, and 40 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: they can do their best to keep themselves safe and 41 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: keep their community well and give them some agency in 42 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: what is happening around them. And so today's conversation is 43 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: about just that, really understanding what kids are going through, 44 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: how they are feeling, and how as the adults in 45 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: their lives, we can do a better job of ensuring, 46 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: particularly that the people that we are electing actually give 47 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: a damn about their wellbeing and don't just see children 48 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: as a problem or as a political football or a stunt, 49 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: but are really creating policies that are about their future 50 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: and their well being. Coming up next, my conversation with 51 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: doctor Jess Shatkin, Folks, I am very happy to welcome 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: to OKF Daily for the very first time, doctor Jess Shatkin, 53 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: who is a child psychiatrist and a professor at NYU 54 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: School of Medicine, to talk about something that I find, 55 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, regularly really important to bring up to all 56 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: of you, which is the health and well being of 57 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:17,160 Speaker 1: America's children youth students. Doctor Shaftan, let me start with this, 58 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,039 Speaker 1: when you come across a lot of these headlines right 59 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: that every American reads about the unc shooting and lockdown 60 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: that just took place at Chapel Hill, the shooting that 61 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: took place in Nashville at the return of every school year, 62 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: right end of August beginning of September, I get a 63 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: nod in my stomach about what this school year is 64 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: going to have in store for America's children, and so, 65 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, as a as a child psychiatrist, I want 66 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on how you feel at the 67 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: start of every school year knowing that there is danger ahead. 68 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 2: Well, thanks for having me on, Danielle, I appreciate it. 69 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: Feel free to call me Jess. I agree with you 70 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: that it is extraordinarily troubling that we have so many 71 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: shootings and that we're so aware of them. I'm glad 72 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: we're aware of them. If we're going to have them, 73 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 2: I think it's important that we hear about them and 74 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: be prepared. I think one of the things that it does, however, 75 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 2: because school is still the safest place for our kids 76 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: to be because compared to how many people go to school, 77 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: while these shootings and these incidents are horrendous, it doesn't 78 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: happen to the vast, vast, vast majority of people, and 79 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 2: most of us are not affected directly by it other 80 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: than this not in the stomach you describe. So I 81 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: still think schools are safe. I still think schools are 82 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: where we need to send kids. I think we need 83 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: to do a better job of managing access to violent 84 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: means and keeping an eye on our schools and keeping 85 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 2: things safe. I'm a big advocate for gun control, but 86 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 2: you can't work with kids and not be There's just 87 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: no way that you can't be an advocate for gun control. 88 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 2: I can't think of a logical reason that most people 89 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: need an assault weapon or a handgun. But those are 90 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: other issues that you know, maybe we do it don't 91 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: talk about. But I don't worry as the school year 92 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: starts because I'm a hopeful person. I think that's why 93 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: I do the work that I do. I'm excited by fall. 94 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: I always like when the kids are back in school, 95 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: and I mean I like summer too, but I like 96 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: when the kids are going back to school and I'm 97 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: talking to the teachers. I also am a professor at 98 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: the medical school and at the college at NYU, and 99 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: I like seeing the students and being engaged with them. 100 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 2: So for me, I'm not troubled by the beginning of school. 101 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: But every day, twice a week it seems I'm hearing 102 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 2: about a shooting, and that, of course, is extraordinarily troublesome. 103 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: How does it weigh on the minds I guess of 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 1: young people because what I realize. You know, I am 105 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: so very removed. Right as I told you before we 106 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: started recording, I was a teacher, an educator in an 107 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: elementary school. My master's degree is in early childhood education. 108 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: And so I really think about kindergartener's first grader, second 109 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: graders having to go through their shooter drills, active shooter drills. 110 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: I think about the guidelines and protocols that are being 111 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: put in place, but what fear that conjures in young people? 112 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 1: And so I just want to get an understanding of 113 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: while we live in a society that requires this type 114 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: of preparation, what does this type of preparation do to 115 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: you to young kids? 116 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't know that we know, first of all, 117 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: because these aren't the kind of things that we study. 118 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: And also some of this is new, right, We're just 119 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: starting to get a sense of these things going on. 120 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: I think for most kids, though, knowing kids as I 121 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: do and having been around them my whole life, I 122 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: think think that most kids probably tolerate this as just 123 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: another like a fire drill, an earthquake drill. You know, 124 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: when I was a kid growing up in California. We 125 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: had to get under our desks for fire drills and 126 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: earthquake drills regularly. Sorry it was a fire drills, you outside, 127 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: earthquake you get under desk. And we also had nuclear 128 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: bomb attack drills too, and we would joke about them 129 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: and make fun of them, as kids do. The kids 130 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: who are bothered by those things generally tend to be 131 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 2: kids who have already experienced trauma. And so if you've 132 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 2: already experienced trauma in your life, then seeing the repeated 133 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: media replays of the violent episodes, the fires, the earthquakes, 134 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: the shootings, that is troubling for kids much more often 135 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: if those kids have been exposed to trauma already of 136 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: any sort, if they're stuffering from post traumatic stress. So 137 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: those are the kids that we really worry about. 138 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: You know. 139 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: We worried a lot about nine to eleven, and we 140 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: had a big intervention at NYU in downtown Manhattan after 141 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: nine to eleven, and we went into all these schools 142 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 2: and we had these programs that went on for about 143 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: a decade, and what we learned was that most kids, 144 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: even kids who were there when it happened, you know, 145 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: when the buildings fell, they were not traumatized. They didn't 146 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: have PTSD, they weren't upset about going back to school. 147 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 2: But those kids who had had trauma in their lives already, 148 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: those kids who had been abused, those kids who had 149 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: suffered or seen someone in their family suffer, those kids 150 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: were bothered. So I think it's probably the same sort 151 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: of thing now in certain neighborhoods, more impoverished neighborhoods, more 152 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 2: minoritized neighborhoods. There you're going to see kids who have 153 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: had more exposure to trauma in their life on average, 154 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: who are in environments where their glocal cordicoord levels or 155 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 2: stress levels are high to begin with, and so those 156 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: kids might be more bothered by that too, But it's 157 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: hard to know, and we don't study those things directly, 158 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 2: So it doesn't have an impact on the vulnerable kids 159 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: for sure, but how much it's hard to say. 160 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: What are some of the remedies. If I am a parent, 161 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: I'm a caregiver, I'm a teacher that is listening to this, 162 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: and you know, I can remember I was at the 163 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: time of Katrina right there, and I'm trying to think. 164 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, was it Katrina or was it another storm? 165 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: That had happened, And I remember that my first and 166 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: second graders were terrified, like they you know, their parents 167 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: were watching the news and they're seeing all of this 168 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: water coming in and they're seeing little kids like them, 169 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, grab their you know, grab their belongings, and 170 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: they were terrified, and they wanted to talk about it 171 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: and understand like, am I safe? Will I be safe? 172 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: How can we help those people? Because children are naturally empathetic, right, 173 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: and less taught not to be. And so I'm wondering, 174 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: what are some of the ways that if you are 175 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: a parent, a caregiver, a teacher, and a child or 176 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 1: classroom of children is wanting to talk about these things 177 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: as a means to calm you know, their their systems 178 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: and their imaginations. What are some of the of the 179 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: tools that you would advise. 180 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think the cognitive piece, the learning piece, is 181 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: just framing it. And we do this around any anxiety. 182 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 2: So if someone has post traumatic s cress disorder, which 183 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: is a type of anxiety, it's not trivial, but it's 184 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: an anxious reaction or response to something that happened to you. 185 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,199 Speaker 2: What we do is we look at the risks, we say, well, 186 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 2: what is the likelihood that you're actually going to be 187 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: in an incident with a shooter, And the likelihood is very, 188 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: very low. And I don't have the numbers in front 189 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: of me, but if we were to, although these episodes 190 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: happen sometimes two or three times a week in our 191 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: country when we hear about them, still the likelihood that 192 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: any one of us will be in an environment where 193 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: that happens is remarkably low. And so I think you 194 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: frame that as best you can for kids, and kids 195 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: can understand that differently at different ages. So high school 196 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: student can understand the numbers, whereas a kid in elementary 197 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: school wouldn't understand the numbers. But you tell them basically 198 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: that school is still the safest place to be. This 199 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: is the place where we learn, This is the place 200 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 2: where we engage with each other, where we have activities, 201 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 2: where we have fun and support, and teachers are here. 202 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: And if parents aren't squeezing their can the hand of 203 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: their child desperately as they drop them up in school 204 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: and they say be safe, honey, it's okay, it's okay, 205 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: be brave. When a parent does that, that imbuse fear 206 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,119 Speaker 2: into the child. So the parent needs to correspondingly have confidence. 207 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: It's the same thing as when you drop a kid 208 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: off the kindergarten or preschool. You know, a lot of 209 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: parents who themselves have separation anxiety or other anxieties will 210 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: be very holding on to their kids, and the kids 211 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: get anxious. But if you let your child go, if 212 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 2: you let your child know that this is the place 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: to be, it's all good. The kids almost always adapt 214 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: to that well, and when they don't, we have a 215 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: few ways to help them with that. But I think 216 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 2: a lot of this is us as teachers and clinicians 217 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: basically being matter of fact about the place and what's 218 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: happens there and this is how it goes, and parents 219 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 2: being relaxed enough themselves to let their kids go. And again, 220 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 2: for parents who might be listening, the risk that your 221 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: child will be in one of these incidents in general 222 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: is remarkably low. It's much more likely they'll get hurt 223 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: in an automobile accident that they will be hurt in 224 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 2: a household actiscident, that something terrible will happen. So the 225 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 2: media is on top of this now, in part because 226 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 2: I think it's mostly the more progressive media who's trying 227 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: to say listen, we need gun control. This is happening 228 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 2: so much. A lot of this stuff has always happened. 229 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 2: You know, in the seventies when I was growing up, 230 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: there were tons of kidnappings. We have very few kidnappings now, 231 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: it's not really a common thing, but there's a lot 232 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: of kidnappings back in the seventies where you know, and 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: sometimes it wasn't always like some organization. It might just 234 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: be a father who takes a child from a home 235 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 2: or and isn't living with the homer, it doesn't have custody. 236 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 2: But those things happen. It used to happen an awful 237 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: lot more than they do now. And it wasn't until 238 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 2: we started advertising them on the milk cartons that people 239 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: became sort of savvy about it, and then people came 240 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: very concerned about it, and then our anxiety started to 241 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: lead us around a little bit. It's not that we 242 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 2: should be cavalier and not acknowledge that these things happen. 243 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 2: It's important we acknowledge it. It's also important to realize 244 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: that most everybody is safe, most all of the time, 245 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: and we can do more to short that good feeling up, 246 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 2: not by acting in denial, but by normalizing it. Bad 247 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: things happen sometimes, It's absolutely true. Uh, we do everything 248 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: we can to keep you safe. We do everything we 249 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: can to enjoy our time here and to learn together. 250 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 2: Let's have parents on the same page, and let's let 251 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: our kids go to school. If the school is unsafe, 252 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: if the neighborhoods unsafe, that's a different story. 253 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: You know, I want to talk about the cortisol levels 254 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: for a minute, because you you've brought it up before 255 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: earlier in our conversation, and you know, it's something that 256 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: I think about on a regular basis. My mother is 257 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: a is a is a retired nurse, and is a 258 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: is a yogi and on a yoga studio. So it's 259 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: something that a daughter that is in politics on a 260 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: regular basis, whose cortisol levels are quite high. Can you 261 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: talk to us about, you know, us as as as 262 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: adults that are really living you know, at a at 263 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: a heightened state, and like you're saying, can bring that 264 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: in to the the kind of the understand you know, 265 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: bring that into the home, bring that in to our 266 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: connections with young people, and so talk to us about 267 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: what happens with the stressor and then why it's important 268 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: to kind of bring those levels down given what we're 269 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: all seeing, right and how we're all tapped in on 270 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: a regular basis. 271 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: So, cortisol is a remarkable and wonderfully protective hormone that 272 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: is released by our adrenal glands which sit on top 273 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: of our kidneys, and when we are stressed out, cortisol 274 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 2: levels are released in higher amounts. It's a natural, normal hormone. 275 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: It does all sorts of things for us to help 276 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: protect us. It helps with managing some of our fight 277 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: flight and freeze sort of protections. It's important for getting 278 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: us ready for managing any stressor that happens in our life. 279 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: And it can basically help us feel less pain, and 280 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: be more strong and muscular, and be more acutely focused, 281 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: and all these kinds of things that can make us 282 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 2: at times almost superhuman, so we can get through the 283 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 2: stressors that we face. But unabated high levels of cortisol 284 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: are also released when people are stressed, and that makes sense, 285 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: and so the levels stay high. And when they stay high, 286 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: although they protect us and they allow us to sort 287 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: of be ready for any disaster or any possibility that 288 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 2: can happen, they also have a wear and tear effect 289 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: on our bodies because you can't maintain that high cortisol 290 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: without some pain. That pain would be high blood pressure, 291 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 2: that pain would be a rapid pulse. That pain would 292 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: be irritability, agitation, anxiety, and so those things. While again 293 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: it's protective and helpful for us, if you are a 294 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: child that's say, growing up an impoverished neighborhood and you're 295 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: an unsafe school and you have an unsafe route to school, 296 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 2: but you've got to go by yourself, and you live 297 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: in a disorganized and violent area, then your levels of 298 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: cortisol are high, and you're primed always for disaster because 299 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: you hear sirens at night and your sleep is disrupted 300 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: and always have a great night of sleep. And you 301 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: also have a great meal every day because the food 302 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,920 Speaker 2: is little insecure and you're not sure that you are 303 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: you're not warm enough for the cold days and cool 304 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: enough for the hot days, and so your body is 305 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 2: always sort of primed for any kind of urgent situation, 306 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: and that wears you down. That leads to higher rates 307 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: of anxiety, drug abuse, school drop out, Your behaviors around 308 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: like things like early pregnancy or getting involved with a 309 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: rough group as much higher you're risk with age of obesity, hypertension, 310 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: heart disease. You know, these people who are in these 311 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 2: environments die on average twenty to thirty years earlier because 312 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: of these high levels of court is all that take 313 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: a toll on their body, causes their circulation to break down, 314 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: increases the likelihood of diabetes, makes them not very efficient 315 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 2: at processing glucose. Pancreas doesn't work as well, or insulin 316 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 2: isn't as effective. So there's all sorts of things that 317 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: we've learned in the past three decades or so about this, 318 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: and so we're cautious about it. And on a very 319 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 2: micro level, if you're a kid in school and you 320 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: go to a typical school, well, there are some kids, 321 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 2: of course who are bathing in cortisol all the time 322 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: because their environments are unsafe. There's abuse in the home, 323 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: someone's in and out of jail, there's drugs in the home, 324 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: there's a lot of instability in the home. They live 325 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: in a poor area, whatever it is. And so those 326 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: kids go to school primed for fights, primed for tension. 327 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: And those kids, we actually know that when you show 328 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: those kids even an ambivalent face, you're walking down the 329 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: hall and You're not one of these kids who's affected 330 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: by this. You're a typical kid, but you don't, you know, 331 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: you just have a sort of a straight face on 332 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 2: or maybe you smile a certain way, which a lot 333 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 2: of kids would interpret as awkward, weird, ambivalent, unsure, or 334 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: even friendly. Some of these kids who are primed for 335 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: disasters see that as a violent face or a threatening face, 336 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: and they get agitated and they respond to it. These 337 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 2: kids get into more fights, These kids get into more detentions, 338 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 2: these kids get kicked out of school, and all that 339 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: stuff sets them up for all the other things I 340 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: was talking about, you know, bad food, lower income paying jobs, 341 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 2: earlier pregnancy, more drug use, likelihood of being incarcerated. So 342 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 2: all of this stuff works in and it becomes this 343 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 2: big stew. Cortisol is not the only thing here, but 344 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: it's a big part of our biological response that leads 345 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: to uh OR as a result of these exposures and 346 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: then leads to more problems. 347 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: You know, I think about that in all the ways 348 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: that you just layered. You know, the issues that students are, 349 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: that students can face, and I think a lot about 350 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: how the response is that the student is the problem 351 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: as opposed to the environment is the problem, right, And 352 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: the environment is the problem because we don't invest in 353 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: the ways that we should to pro to make what 354 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: is quote unquote typical for some to be the actual 355 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: norm for everyone. Right. That when you have environments that 356 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: are are riddled with these with these issues that are 357 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: societal issues that are ignored, the effects then become domino 358 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: right from youth all the way into adult. And I 359 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: think that that is something that is really important for 360 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: us to think about when we think about again what 361 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: kind of elected officials we are putting in place and 362 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: where their priorities are. Before I let you go, I 363 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: do want I just punctuate, Yeah. 364 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: Please, I punctuate what you just said. Though. What you 365 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: just said is something we've known for years. It's what 366 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: our best interventions do. We take kids who are in disorganized, crowded, 367 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 2: unhealthy environments and we enhance their environment somehow. Maybe it's 368 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 2: at school, maybe it's at home. Sometimes it means a 369 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: certain type of foster care or placement. But whatever it 370 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 2: is that we do, when we move them into an 371 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: environment that is structured for them, that gives them a 372 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: reliable way to learn, a reliable sort of behavioral patterns 373 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: where they're waking around the same time and going to 374 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: sleep around the same time, and they're eating healthy meals, 375 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: and they're getting exercise, and they're getting teachers who identify 376 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 2: their learning difficulties and support them if they have them. 377 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: When we do that, people get better. They may still 378 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,479 Speaker 2: have to press or they may still have ADHD, they 379 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: may still have autism. It doesn't treat all that stuff, 380 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: but it makes them so much less less intensive, and 381 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: some of those things that are triggered by environmental situations 382 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: never show up in the first place, or they're so 383 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 2: minimal they don't need treatment because they're getting all the 384 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: supports in place that they need. There are a million 385 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: political reasons that we don't always invest in those interventions 386 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: the way we should. Politicians are elected for a few years, 387 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: these things take a number of years to show their benefits, 388 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: but they do have. Every study we've done looking at 389 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: this shows that these are cost effective that if we 390 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: follow them for four or ten, eight years, are multi 391 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: systemic treatment. Things like Boystown. I was just in Boystown 392 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: consulting with them in Omaha, Nebraska. It's the same thing. 393 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: They basically bring these kids into homes, these are foster 394 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 2: kids or kids who've been in violent environments. They just 395 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: raise them in a safe home with a family where 396 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: they have reliable meals, reliable activities, and the vast majority 397 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: of them do very well and go to college, or 398 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: they go get jobs, they get training. They are kids 399 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: who are able to function very well when taken out 400 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: of a very disruptive vironment or when given the supports 401 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: in that environment that they need. So and a lot 402 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 2: of this happens not because people are lazy, and not 403 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: because people are bad, as you're suggesting, but because people 404 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: have had well, We've got all sorts of generational trauma. 405 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: We've got genetic changes, we've got racism, we've got poverty, 406 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: and those things really chip away at people and it 407 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: makes it very hard for people to get back on 408 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: their feet. And I think that if we could level 409 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: the playing field, we would see a huge change in 410 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: our population. 411 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: The last question that I want to ask you to 412 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: is the fact that in Texas right now, there are 413 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 1: many school districts that are gutting their libraries and putting 414 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: in disciplinary centers right that instead of having a place 415 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: for learning, creativity, relaxation. At least, you know that was 416 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: the privilege of the libraries that I grew up going 417 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: to in my school district. They're replacing them with discipline 418 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: and their centers. Just give me your thoughts and response 419 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: to those decisions that are being made in school districts 420 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: also that happen to have predominantly black and brown children. 421 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, we know that disciplinary action isn't terribly effective. 422 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: We know that expelling kids or even suspending kids from 423 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 2: school does not result in better behavior. It gives them 424 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: a break, it sends them home and the parents then 425 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: have to deal with them, but it doesn't fix the 426 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: problem they're having at school, and when they come back, 427 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 2: nothing is changed. It's like taking someone who's addicted to drugs, 428 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: putting them in a thirty day rehabilitation detox program and 429 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: putting them right back in the same place. It doesn't 430 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 2: make much difference for ninety nine point nine percent of people. 431 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: They stay clean for two weeks and they're back in 432 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 2: the same problems because they're in the same place and 433 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 2: nothing is changed in their home environment. Nothing has changed 434 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: with the people they hang out with, or the way 435 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 2: they earn their living, or the activities they're engaged in. 436 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 2: So I think that setting up a disciplinary center will 437 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 2: not teach our kids anything. It will scratch the itch 438 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 2: of the adults in their lives who are angry and 439 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 2: are frustrated and say, don't you mess with us. We 440 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: will make you pay for that. But that doesn't change anything, 441 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: and it takes an extraordinary it's natural. We all have 442 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: this natural tendency to want to punish when somebody does 443 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: something wrong. The dog junks on the counter and the 444 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: dog eats your dinner, you're angry at the dog. You 445 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 2: don't praise the dog for that. But if you hit 446 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 2: the dog, the dog learns nothing, and if you put 447 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: the dog in a cage, the dog learns nothing. So 448 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: there are ways to teach people and to make behavioral changes. 449 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 2: We've known about behavioral modification for We've got really good 450 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 2: data for sixty seventy years on how to raise kids 451 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 2: with behavioral modification tools. And there's variations on the theme, 452 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: but basically it's positive reinforcement. You know, it's giving and 453 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: leading people and rewarding people for good behavior, and it's 454 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 2: sometimes punishing a little bit, but the punishment is not 455 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: to be devastating. The punishment is brief, focused on the problem, 456 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: and then we're neutral afterwards, we're not continuing to grind 457 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 2: them in the ground and make them pay for this 458 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 2: one act of jumping on the counter food. The dog 459 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: doesn't remember, and a lot of kids, quite frankly, don't remember. 460 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: When you punish a child for more than a day 461 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: by taking something away or taking away their television privileges 462 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: or their phone or whatever, they barely remember what they did. 463 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 2: They just think of you as a angry you know, 464 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,439 Speaker 2: parent who's exacting a lot of retribution. Punishments when they 465 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 2: happen should be short and focused on the problem, and 466 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: then we get right back into all the positives and 467 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: the guidance and the structure, because that is what really 468 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: makes a difference, and we have gobs of data on that, 469 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 2: but it doesn't scratch our own itch of like I'm 470 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: going to make them pay. You know. That's why Rambo 471 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 2: movies and die Hard they're so they're so unbelievably fulfilling 472 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: for us to watch because the bad guys pay and 473 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: that feels really good. But that's not how the world 474 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: really works. Well that's a fantasy. 475 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. Well, doctor Josh shock In, this 476 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: has been a fantastic conversation, and I really appreciate your 477 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: insight and analysis, and I hope that you will join 478 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: us again on WOKF. 479 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: I'm always happy to come back. Thanks for having me, Danielle, 480 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: nice to speak with you. 481 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke 482 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: af AS always, power to the people and to all 483 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.