1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. You might 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: know attorney Rabbia Chadri from her role in the case 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: of Ann said Adnan was convicted of first degree murder 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: for the death of hay Menley, a high school student 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: in Baltimore who was last seen on January. Lee's family 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,599 Speaker 1: remains convinced of Ann's guilt, that he maintains his innocence, 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: and Robbia has been fighting to disonerate him. She brought 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: his story to investigative journalist Sarah kaneg which became the 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: hit true crime podcast Cereal. Robbia hosts her own true 11 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: crime podcast called Undisclosed. Rashid her co host who are 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: also lawyers, explore wrongful convictions. Now, even though there's literally 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of podcasts out there, the podcast community 14 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: can be kind of small. We see each other at 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: events and conferences, and right now Robbia is facing a 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: coordinated harassment campaign from another podcaster. Now, talking about this 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: kind of online harassment is tricky, and it's so easy 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: to do it irresponsibly. Let me talk about harassment. Were 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: often centering the harassmer and their tactics. The experience of 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: the person who has been harassed, how they're feeling, and 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: how it shapes their work and their perspective can often 22 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: go overlooked or not mentioned at all. So I don't 23 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: want to do that, and honestly, the person harassing Robbia 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: does not need a bigger spotlight, but I do need 25 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: to tell you the broad strokes of what's going on 26 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: to make clear the full weight of how harassment can 27 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: impact our real lives. I believe Robbia is at the 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: center of a dangerous, coordinated harassment campaign being orchestrated by 29 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: Mike Boudet, the host of Sword and Scale, a popular 30 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: and successful true crime podcast. On his website, Mike sells 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: merchandise with the slogan Adnan Did It, a reference to 32 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Robbia's relationship with Adnan. He's encouraged his followers to show 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: up at her public speaking events. Stuff that is just 34 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: super scary, stuff that makes me concerned for Robbie's actual safety. 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: If you check out the verified Twitter page for Sword 36 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: and Scale, you can see a little of what I mean. 37 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: Mike's podcast, it's really popular and he has a huge 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: fan base and This is another reason why talking about 39 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: online harassment is kind of tricky. No one wants to 40 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: be on the radar of someone who's a harasser. Other 41 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: members of the true crime podcast community have talked about 42 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 1: being afraid to speak up because of the behavior they've 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: seen from him. No one wants to wake up and 44 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: find a flood of hateful comments directed at you on 45 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: social media, or a flood of one star reviews on 46 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: your podcast. But this is also how harassment festers. People 47 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: don't speak up and they don't call it out for 48 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: what it is. In doing research for this episode, an 49 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: article about what Robbie is going through described her as 50 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: having a feud with Mike Boudet. A feud is a 51 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: difference of opinion. A feud might be tense exchanges on 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: social media. A feud is not when one person is 53 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: concerned with their actual safety. That's harassment, and we need 54 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: to talk about the way it un packs our work 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: and our lives. I was in law school, um when 56 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 1: when the best friend of my younger brother was arrested, 57 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:18,079 Speaker 1: non say, and that has kind of gotten me um. 58 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 1: You know, it was just one of those things where 59 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 1: I witnessed it a close and personal I was there 60 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: in his trial when he was convicted, and I just 61 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: witnessed the horror of all of it, and I couldn't 62 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: believe what I was seeing. And I had no idea 63 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: what the criminal justice system was like until what happened 64 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: with Annan, and our community also was pretty naive. So 65 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: that's what really drew me in and kept me there 66 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: all these years. He's still incarcerated, as most people know, um, 67 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: but from his case, my my work has stemmed out 68 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: into doing other wrongful conviction work. For the last six 69 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: seven years, that's been the focus of my work. Yeah, 70 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: you know, I read this great quote from your mom. 71 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: She says, your time in this world is really limited? 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: What are you going to do with it? And something 73 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: about that. First of all, your mom sounds awesome. She's 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: a force to be reckoned with, for sure. Something about 75 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: that quote that really struck me was this idea that 76 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: you are doing very important work, you know, legitimately life 77 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: and death work, you know, working with people who have 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: been incarcerated, all of that. This is important stuff. And 79 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, we only have so much time in a day, 80 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: and so much time on this world, and so much 81 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: energy that we that we can expand and so to 82 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: see somebody like you going through harassment campaigns, do you 83 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: ever feel that this, these kinds of campaigns are kind 84 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: of deliberately meant to distract you from this important work 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: that you actually have to do. You know, I have 86 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: been through I mean numerous very intense uh kind of 87 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: onslaughts um, like in in different different times in my 88 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: life for different reasons, so different groups who want to 89 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: attack me for different reasons. And UM, I think the 90 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: first time I went through it really really it was 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: really terrible. It was around the time Cereal came out actually, um, 92 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: but it wasn't so much related to Cereals related some 93 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: of the interfaith work I did and I spent. Um. 94 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: I learned my lesson because I spent about three months 95 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: trying to respond to everything, not realizing that how trolling 96 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: works and how harassment works. UM. Then I when I realized, 97 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: first of all, I was I felt, I was sick, 98 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: I was exhausted, I was physically I had gotten really 99 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: sick over that time, just from the strain of it. UM. 100 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: Then I the realization hit me that you know, what 101 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: they want me to do is not to function. They 102 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: want me to and they're winning because I'm spending all 103 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: my time, like you know, it's like that whack a 104 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: mole game, right, like, trying to respond to this thing, 105 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: and you responded this thing and they come at you 106 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: with another thing. I'm like, oh, this is brilliant. They're 107 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: keeping me wrapped up in this crazy and I'm wasting 108 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: my time and my health and my sanity, um, and 109 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: not doing my work. And so now I always think 110 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: about it like that, but like, if this is preventing 111 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: me from doing my work, they're winning, um. And so 112 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: hundred percent it's a distraction. What people who harassing you 113 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: online want to do is to make sure you cannot 114 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: actually function. Yet, all the women that I talked to 115 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: who face, you know, intense harassment, that's something that they 116 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: talk about. That's something that a lot of their situations 117 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: have in common that at one point they you know, 118 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: they are trying to respond to everything and really engaged, 119 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: and then they realize they're spending all their time focusing 120 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: on the harassment. So whatever the thing is, whether it 121 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: was justice work like you, or activist work or writing, 122 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: they are spending more time trying to respond to the trolls, 123 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: which they will never be able to satisfy because sort 124 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 1: of the trip of harassment, they're spending more time on 125 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: that than they are sort of doing the thing that 126 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: is their purpose. And I believe that really is one 127 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: of the the purposes of this kind of harassment. It's 128 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: to keep powerful women or quote mouthy women or women 129 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: who you know, could accomplish something to keep. It's to 130 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: keep us from accomplishing whatever it is that we're meant 131 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: to be doing on this. Yeah, there's that, There's that 132 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: aspect of it, and then there's the aspect of they 133 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: want you to like, they wanted to drag you down 134 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: to their level. They're they're punching up. In almost every case, 135 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: they're punching up. They want your attention, they want relevance, 136 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: so your attention gives them relevance. Otherwise they are irrelevant essentially. 137 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: That's so true. It's so true. And I I know 138 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: in your case, I can't help but wonder if part 139 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: of the reason why some of the folks who really 140 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: have like an obsession with you and your work part 141 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: of it is because you're very successful, You're very effective 142 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: at what you do, and that makes them even more angry. 143 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 1: You know, it is kind of an attempt to drag 144 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: you down to their level because you're so successful, because 145 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: they know you can be so effective. Yeah, you know, 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: it's it's interesting, you know, I UM, most recently in 147 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, the attacks have been coming 148 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: from this one particular podcaster and he's he's actually an 149 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: incredibly successful podcaster. Which is what's shocking about this particular 150 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: situation is like, dude, you he might be much more 151 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: successful in the sense of UM. I mean in one metric, 152 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: which is like, I think he probably makes a lot 153 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: more money than what me and my team make doing 154 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: the work that we do. But the metric that's important 155 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: for us is like the value of our work and 156 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: the value of our work is are we able to 157 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: help exonerate the people whose cases we're working on and 158 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: um and basically just be able to pay cover our 159 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: costs that we can do it so it doesn't cost 160 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: anything to the defendant because for for most and cart 161 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: rated people, they can't afford uh the appeals, they can't 162 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: afford the reinvestigation, and we're able to cover those costs. 163 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: So by that metric, my work is more I would say, 164 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: much more meaningful. UM. Maybe that's mothers something to to 165 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: to some people, But I can't say that I'm the 166 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: most successful podcast and senses like we're not minting money 167 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: over here, you know, we're not not. Yeah, you know, 168 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: sometimes I wish the kind of work that you're producing 169 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: was valued in that same way. It can be a 170 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: little bit frustrating sometimes I'm like, man, I could be 171 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: doing like the kind of true crime and podcast that 172 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: you can just knock out, like in an hour or 173 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: so and just get online and chat with somebody about 174 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: some case. But our shows, for every hour that we air, 175 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: we were talking about hundreds of hours of prep of 176 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: maybe two years lead time, of two years of investigation 177 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: before we can air a case. So it's very very intensive. 178 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: And but then the day that's what that's it's purposeful 179 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 1: and and that's what I can do. That's what I 180 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: do best. I don't do well what other people do, right, 181 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: I can't do to a crime prompt comedy, and I 182 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: can't do other things. But this is what I do. 183 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: And so you know, as long as we're able to 184 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: cover our costs um and provide this really as a 185 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: service to the people who whose cases we're looking at, 186 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: we're going to continue to do it. Talking about this 187 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: in terms of being in the podcast industry. You know, 188 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: one of the people who is waging uh targeted harassment 189 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: campaign against you is a very popular podcaster, Mike Uday. 190 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: And I think that it's hard for me to watch 191 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: as a like, as a podcaster, it's hard for me 192 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: to watch the podcast industry and ecosystems still support this. 193 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I saw on 194 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: your Twitter that I think is so correct is like 195 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: people need to understand that if you listen to if 196 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: you like, when you listen to this podcast, this is 197 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: what you're supporting. I think it can be really easy 198 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: for listeners to say, oh, well, I'm just listening to 199 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: the show. I don't know what's going on. You know, 200 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm I'm not quote following whatever's happening. But really, 201 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: it's been hard to see the silence, I would say, 202 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 1: from the podcast industry in terms of watching someone essentially 203 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: harass a colleague. You know, I think of all podcasters 204 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: that's kind of in the same you know, the same club, 205 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: and a kind of way. It's been really hard. Yeah, 206 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: you know, there there and you know why though, because 207 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: um and then you're right, I mean, so we are. 208 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: Podcasting is a community podcast content creators. We are a community, 209 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: and then you have your genres. So the true crime 210 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: community is even as a smaller subsect of that, and 211 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: many of us are close. We teach at their different 212 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: conferences and conventions. We support each other this work. We're listeners. 213 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: We listened to each other shows. UM. So what I know, Uh, 214 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: what I know for sure because we've we've people have 215 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: confessed this to be privately, they have said it publicly, 216 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: they have written about it. Is that the same person 217 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: who I think he's I just think he's like a 218 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: disturbed individual. Um. Many of them are afraid to really 219 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: be public because when they have tried to push back 220 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 1: publicly on any of his day, he will come after them. 221 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: And he does have a very big show and he 222 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: has um a lot of followers, and so he can 223 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: really crush the smaller shows by flooding them with one 224 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: star reviews, by harassing them into like leaving social media. UM, 225 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: and so a lot I've had people reach out and say, 226 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm afraid to say anything, but I just want you 227 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: to know that you know I'm support you, But I 228 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: this guy scares me. He's done this to me. Before 229 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: like give it's like, so, um, that's why. But there 230 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: are some folks who have, like in a very public way, 231 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: stepped up in the last couple of months and been 232 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: like enough is enough, right, and and they have really 233 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: condemned his behavior. Uh, And I appreciate that, but not 234 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: everybody can afford to and I completely understand them. Yeah, 235 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: that's so tough. And I think you just articulated one 236 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: of the hallmarks of online harassment and abuse and coordinated 237 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: harassment campaigns is that it really has a silencing effect, 238 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: not just on the person that is targeted, but anyone 239 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: who might want to, you know, stick up for that person, 240 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: anyone who you know, might want to challenge what's going on. 241 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: It's such a big silencing effect. And I think that 242 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: we don't talk enough about that as a speech issue 243 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: that the kind of people who you know, we're saying like, oh, gee, 244 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to be too outspoken because I don't 245 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: want what's happening to her to happen to me. I 246 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: don't want it to be me next. I can't afford 247 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: to have this kind of thing, So they they don't 248 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: speak up, or they just leave social media altogether, or 249 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: they don't say the things that they actually want to say. 250 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: That is one of the hallmarks of online harassment campaigns 251 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: that we just don't talk about. And truly, we with 252 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: all of the you know, rigamar role about free speech 253 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: and cancel culture, we need to start taking that more 254 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: seriously as a spee issue because you know, if if 255 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 1: an entire group of you know, already marginalized contact creators, 256 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: I feel like they can't speak up and say what 257 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: they want to say because they're terrified of this person 258 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: one person, Like that's that's that is not good, and 259 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: we need to be talking about like perhaps we have 260 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: perhaps it's a problem with our our kind of media 261 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: and digital media landscape, but also it's a wider problem 262 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: about how much space one person is allowed to take up, 263 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: how how much how much that one person is allowed 264 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: to dictate this entire community. I mean, look, we we 265 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 1: saw this um in as big as way as possible 266 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: with the former guy, the former guy who is in 267 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: the White House. UM. So, yeah, one person can have 268 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: a lot of power. They can be very destructive. One 269 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: person can be a complete wrecking ball. And that's what 270 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: this particular person is. He's a wrecking ball. But what's 271 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 1: really crazy about the whole thing is that he's mostly 272 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: wrecking himself, right Like in all of this as he's 273 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: scaring people and stuff, He's getting deep platforms, getting dropped 274 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 1: by sponsors, getting draw by his um, his um, his 275 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: his different companies and uh and at the end of 276 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 1: the day, you know, the rest of us are still 277 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: going to be invited and show up to two different 278 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 1: spaces that uh, you know, a relevant to our our work. 279 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: And while he's kind of been ostracized for years, so 280 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: it's not just you know, I'm a target. Um. I 281 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: think I'm a big target for him because I won't 282 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: just take it and disappear. Um. And it's frustrating to him. 283 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: But um, most people just kind of quietly, like you know, 284 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: fade into the background, and so he stops attacking them 285 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: after a while. UM. And you know, for me, also, 286 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: what I realized was, like what gives people like that 287 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: fuel is this attention. And so they're just star for 288 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: attention and I assume purpose and meaning their life. And 289 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: I don't have the time to give that to them 290 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: because I got too much going on in my life. 291 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: You know, I have too much work that's actually has 292 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: an impact on people's lives that I got to do, 293 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: I don't got time for it. Let's take a quick 294 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: break and are back. According to data from Amnesty International, 295 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: women of color are disproportionately targeted for online harassment and abuse, 296 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: and we see this playing out in all kinds of places. 297 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: For instance, former President Donald Trump was known for lashing 298 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: out at reporters of all stripes, but it's worst both 299 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: vitriolic comments are always reserved for journalists who also happened 300 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: to be black women or women of color, like White 301 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: House correspondence Yamichel Sendor, April Ryan, and Young, and that 302 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: his behavior towards them made them even bigger targets for abuse, 303 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: precisely because they're women of color. Knowing this, it's not 304 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: surprising that even though Mike has had issues with white 305 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: male podcasters in the past, he isn't selling merchandise referencing 306 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: their work on his website, and those men aren't being 307 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: called out specifically by name in his podcast official Twitter bio, 308 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: like Robbia is. Robbia is far from the only podcaster 309 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: who has criticized him, Yet Mike has not threatened to 310 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: make a daily podcast blaming those men if he's ever 311 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: kicked off social media, but he's threatened to do that 312 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 1: to Robbia. I also think part of it is that 313 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: you're a woman of color. You know, the data is 314 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: very clear like women of color, we are disproportionately targeted. 315 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: I think that you know, we you said earlier that 316 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: he has gone after other podcasters white man. He's not 317 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: making you know, merchandise based around their work. There are people, 318 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: there are certain kinds of people we know exactly who 319 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: they are, that they cannot stand a woman of color, Uh, 320 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: like having any kind of backbone. They want us to 321 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: be subservient. They want us to they want us to 322 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: be in our place. They want to put us in 323 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: our place. Um and yeah, I think that that that's 324 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: one of the biggest triggers for this guy and for 325 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: others like him, is that who the hell does she 326 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: think she is? Why isn't she, like, you know, getting 327 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: in her place where she needs to be? Um and 328 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: uh and you know, but what do you do? I mean, like, 329 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: we've seen this happen on a national stage. We've seen 330 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: this happen with incredible black female correspondence and journalists. Um, 331 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: you know, coming from a presidential administration. So we've just 332 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: seen this happen in so many different ways. Um, And 333 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: I think that's really a big part of why I 334 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: am a particular target for this person. I think that's 335 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: so true. I think there's something about when a woman 336 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: of color is outspoken, where people look at us and say, 337 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,919 Speaker 1: who does she think she is? Doesn't she know that 338 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: she's supposed to just lie down and take it or immediately, 339 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: you know, fall all over self apologizing the fact that 340 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: you won't do that. I think it just it's it 341 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: triggers something very ugly inside of a certain kind of person. Yeah. Definitely, 342 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,400 Speaker 1: when these kinds of harassment campaigns, the kind of thing 343 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: that you've gone through were happening, so many people and 344 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: institutions that actually have power do nothing. And I think 345 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: that that's another hallmark of this kind of harassment that 346 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: we see, you know, uh, social like I was, you 347 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: know on Twitter, this person's podcast has a verified account. 348 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: You know, we know that d platforming is a very 349 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: effective way of curbing harassment, and yet you know, social 350 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: media platforms seem to be doing nothing. You know, we 351 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 1: see journalists describe what's happening to you as a quote feud, 352 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: as if you as if you two are just sort 353 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: of having some kind of a a sparring match, and 354 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that this is not a pretty intense and serious, coordinated 355 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: online harassment campaign against you. You know, what is it 356 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: like to see so many institutions and people with power 357 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: really do nothing to curb this when they could. I mean, 358 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: it's not surprising. We've seen this so many times, especially 359 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: with women. We've seen this in so many different um, like, 360 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: you know, different controversies I have taken place with women 361 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: getting harassed and and and making it public, and you 362 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: know it's, uh, they gaslight you. So it's like if 363 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: you if I'm being attacked and harassed, whether it's in 364 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: my d M s, it's my emails, it's all coming 365 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: from the same source. However it's happening. If I call 366 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: attention to it in order to get some kind of 367 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: response from these platforms, UM, then people say, well why 368 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: are that? Then it becomes a few they frame it 369 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: like it's a feud, and it's not a feud. It's 370 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: me calling attention to his behavior. UM. And if you 371 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: don't say anything and you just take it, I mean, 372 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of what they want. Just don't 373 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: take and take it. But these platforms, they don't really 374 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: do anything. What is effect what has been more effective 375 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: is just asking people to just report um certain posts 376 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: and tweets and stuff. Some get removed, some don't get removed. 377 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,719 Speaker 1: I mean free speech first amment is what it is. 378 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: I guess we have the legal right to be as 379 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: ugly as you want. I think I hit my UM, 380 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: I kind of hit my limit when there were people um, 381 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: his followers and his mentions and he's like kind of encouraging. 382 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: He's encouraging people to go to like my speaking events, 383 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: to like find me in real life. Uh, and then 384 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: he had people saying things like hopefully she'll get murdered herself, 385 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: hopefully a non woman. Then I was like, this has 386 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: gone too far. And that's when I really that's when 387 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: I finally kind of posted. I said, I have called 388 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Facebook to the platform him. This is 389 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,719 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff he's saying and encouraging, and they 390 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: won't and if something happens to me or my family, 391 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: then there they know they also need to be held responsible. Yeah. 392 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean the kind of things that I've seen, I've 393 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: seen you know people, I will see people be like, oh, well, 394 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: she should just block him if she doesn't like what 395 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: he has to say. I mean, yes, exactly, you know, 396 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: And it's like getting people to understand that this is 397 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: not just something that is happening like quote unquote on 398 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 1: Twitter on the computer. I very genuinely sometimes worry for 399 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: your safety in real life and everything that we know 400 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: about online harassment, but even if it starts online, it 401 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: doesn't stay online, and very often it's connected to real 402 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: world violence. And so I am I when I see 403 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that he's encouraging his followers to do, 404 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: I get very concerned for your actual safety. Yeah. Yeah, 405 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 1: I've had my moments of concern. I mean I think, um, 406 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: he it just takes one unhinged person to think I 407 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,199 Speaker 1: gotta do something about this, you know, especially because the 408 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: way he particularly frames it is, I mean this it's 409 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: such I mean, like you see, we've seen this technique 410 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: at unfold like online, um, like with the elections, right, 411 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: So what Trump said was that these people are harming 412 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: our elections. What this guy says is this woman is 413 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 1: shutting down my podcast. I mean he's got an incredibly 414 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: successful podcast. I'm not shutting anything down. Um, He's continuing 415 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: to produce and I've gotten messages from from people from 416 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,479 Speaker 1: men saying, um, if you if if he ends up 417 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: losing his podcast because of you, I'm gonna come get 418 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: you kind of stuff for a podcast, right Like, So 419 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: the way he's framing it is to basically target, is 420 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: to direct people's rage towards me in case like, you know, 421 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: so they can like take out, take out revenge or 422 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: something in case like he you know, he stops making 423 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: a show which is not gonna but um and on 424 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: top of which everything that he's lost in terms of 425 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: sponsors and it's it's been a pent him more. After 426 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: a quick break, let's get right back and do it. 427 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, after Mike celebrated International Women's Day by 428 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: posting a really gross meme about violence against women on 429 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: social media, people on the podcast community spoke up and 430 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,120 Speaker 1: wondering sort in Scales Network eventually announced they were parting 431 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: ways with the show. Mike vowed to keep the show 432 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: running without the support of the network, tweeting anything that 433 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: was ad supported is over now because of Aaron Manky 434 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,160 Speaker 1: from Lore and Robbia from undisclosed, who led this boycott 435 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 1: against me and my company because they didn't like certain 436 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: things I said, But that tweet pretty conveniently leave out 437 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,719 Speaker 1: any responsibility for the consequences of his own actions, Like 438 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: it's his own actions that have caused it, and he 439 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: won't take responsibility for his behavior. So yeah, I mean, 440 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: but there's only so much. You know, I did report 441 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: um that, I did report the harassment to law enforcement. 442 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: But you know, we also don't have very strong cyber 443 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: stalking laws and stuff in this country. There's only so 444 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: much you can do to protect yourself. And other than that, 445 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: it's kind of like, Okay, try to keep my family safe. 446 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: You know, got got security cameras up, got alarm system, 447 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: things like that. But what can I do if, you know, 448 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: once COVID is lifted and I'm out in the public again. 449 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: I always did a lot of traveling and speaking and 450 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: and uh and and I have a new book coming 451 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: out next year and I'll be traveling for that. And 452 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: it is what it is. I can't like hide, right, Yeah, 453 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: And it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. 454 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: Of this is preventing you from living your life, from 455 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: doing your work, from making your living, you know, especially 456 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 1: as kind of public contact creators like that d of 457 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: thing you do have to have a fair amount of 458 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: like public stuff, whether it's appearances or are speaking engagements 459 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: or conferences or panels or whatever to to do that. 460 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: And so the way that this is really like would 461 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: really make it difficult for you to be able to 462 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: do that without wondering in the back of your head, 463 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 1: like is today the day that some you know, some 464 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: listener of his takes matters into his own hands. It's 465 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: preventing you from being able to live life the way 466 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: that you want to live your life. And I think 467 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: that that's something that people really forget about this kind 468 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: of harassment, is that it's not just online, it's in 469 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: real life as well. Oh it is, I mean a 470 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: percent I um. But at the same time, I mean, 471 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: like you know, and I've had to process through this 472 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: with my own lawyer and and people who are close 473 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: to me, and um that I turned to for advice 474 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 1: that you know, it's actually not gonna happen. I'm not 475 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: gonna change the way I live my life. Um, other 476 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: than just taking some general precautions. I'm going to continue. 477 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: I want to continue to the work. I'm gonna continue 478 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 1: to travel and speak. I mean, I I speak to 479 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: a lot of law schools and law firms and um 480 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: and universities about this work. And that's the kind of 481 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: stuff that helps scale it up. You know, you get 482 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: people to support the work. You get students saying I 483 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: want to go to law school now, um, And so yeah, 484 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it at the end 485 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: of the day. Um. And it is what it is. 486 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean, like there's just you know, I like, I'm 487 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: also a religious person. I'm a person of faith, and 488 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that when your time is written, it's 489 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: written what it's supposed to come, it's supposed to come. 490 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: So you know, yeah, I mean like there's this kind 491 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 1: of no avoiding it. So what it's gonna happen. It's 492 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: gonna happen. But you know, but of course you don't 493 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 1: want it to happen because it's something as ridiculous and 494 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: stupid or something like this. Yeah. Yeah, And I think 495 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: something that you said is so touching knowing that you 496 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: are going to continue to inspire so many It's like 497 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: you're building this little army of people who are inspired 498 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: to following your footsteps and following your legacy and continue 499 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: to create that kind of justice. You know, the impact 500 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: that you will have on so many people is so big, 501 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: and your voice can be so big, and the idea 502 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: that this one asshole could stop it is obviously he 503 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: couldn't write like you're like, the impact that you can 504 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: have that you have is so much bigger than anything 505 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: that this person could ever, you know, dream up to 506 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: try to stop it. I feel, yeah, you know, I 507 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of laugh about it sometimes when he he posts 508 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: things about a NONS case or other aspects of work, 509 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm an attorney. I've been doing this 510 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: for like twenty odd years. I have I have a 511 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: team of attorneys I work with. I work with the 512 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: Innocence Project across the country on cases. And this completely unqualified, 513 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, white guy, really like, this completely qualified guy 514 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: thinks that he has the same like skill set or 515 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: or even has the same like he's he's so entitled 516 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: that he feels like his opinion is equal to my expertise. 517 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: I mean really, um, and I think that prior drives 518 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: me crazy too. I mean, like, is the fact that 519 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: I want to be like listen, go to law school, 520 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: spent about ten fifteen years doing it, is since work 521 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: and then let's talk about this case, like you know 522 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: you have a completely uninformed opinion. You you can't come 523 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: close to like my you know, the work that I do, 524 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: because you don't have the experience. I'm sure he's great 525 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: at what he does. I can't do what he does. 526 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: I will never do what he does, and he can't 527 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: do what I do, as simple as that. And so 528 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: it's just like apples and oranges. And I think what 529 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: it is is he thinks, oh, she's got a true 530 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: crime podcast. My podcast as a means to an end um. 531 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: The whole point of the podcast is I could end 532 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: the podcast tomorrow as long as I could find a 533 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 1: way to financially support the work of of helping people 534 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: get back in court. Right, it's been cars for years. 535 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: The podcast is a way to do that. That's not 536 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: the work. The work is the other work that I 537 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: do outside of the recording studio. Yeah. That's something I 538 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: love about your work is that it's not just so 539 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: many folks like and not to not to crap on them, 540 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: but the work begins and ends in the podcast studio, 541 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: and you are out there making like, doing the actual work, 542 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: making the actual difference. And and I love those two. 543 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: I listen to them all the time. I love. I 544 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: love those kinds of I love all kinds of shows. 545 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, I love the investigative stuff. 546 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: But this is what I do. And so, uh, you 547 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: know what I think is kind of interesting is like, 548 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: um his he's calling on those followers and other people 549 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: who attack me too to try and stop, like I 550 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: want to be, like you really want to you really 551 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: want to prevent a person from doing the kind of 552 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 1: work I'm doing. Like that in itself is like almost evil. 553 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: It's like if I was handing out water bottles at 554 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: the border and somebody's like, note, I want to shoot 555 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: them all out of your hand, Like you want to 556 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: prevent me from doing like work that's going to change 557 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: people's lives, like Hayes. It's really crappy, right, And because yeah, 558 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: you're doing this this important justice work. And I think 559 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: that all the people who see what's happening, who might 560 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: otherwise be inspired to follow in your footsteps and do 561 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: this kind of work, how many of them are going 562 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: to see this and be like, oh, well, I don't 563 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: want to do that. You know. It's like you're preventing 564 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: the spread of justice in the world by by you know, 565 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: behaving in this way. But you know, look up, he 566 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: can only he and others can only harass me if 567 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: I allow myself to like feel harassed in some extent um. 568 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: And it was only in the time when I felt 569 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: like this is getting kind of dangerous, some of the 570 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: rhetorics getting dangerous, that I really felt stress over it. Um. 571 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: But then I was like, my due diligence is that 572 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: I've told my attorney, I've notified the platforms. I've put 573 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: everybody else on notice. Anybody who follows me knows now, right. 574 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: So others are hundreds of if not thousands of people 575 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: are watching him, um, watching and documenting every because he 576 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: does have a history of like posting things and deleting 577 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: them as if things disappear from the internet. Um. And 578 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: so I've done my due diligence. That's that's all I 579 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: can do. And now I have to get back to 580 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: my life. I also have kids, I've got a husband, 581 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: I've got cats, I've got elderly parents, I have a garden, 582 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,479 Speaker 1: I have things to take care of. I don't want 583 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: to time for this, absolutely. I mean, that's a great question. 584 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: How do you take care of yourself? How do you 585 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: make sure that you know you're the things that matter 586 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: in your life are nurtured and protected during all of this. 587 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean, look, when you're working, mom, I can't be like, hey, kids, 588 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: I'm having a bad day. You're just gonna have to 589 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: feed yourselves and you know, drive yourself to school. Um. 590 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: There are things that are nonegotiable that you have to 591 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: take care of every single day. In a way, just 592 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: having that, they're like, um, it's a good distraction from 593 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: like this meaningless stuff that's happening online in many instances. 594 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: So I I feel taken. I feel like I I'm 595 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: taking care of myself when I get my work done, 596 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: when I you know, it's it's I write words a day, 597 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: when I hit my fift words a day. Uh, and 598 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: I've made sure that you know, my family's got food 599 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: for today, or I know we're getting take out, or 600 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: I've made the plans um and my plants aren't dying 601 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: and my parents. You know, as long as I'm checking 602 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: the boxes of the things that I need to do 603 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: for the people are important to me, then that's taking 604 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: care of myself as well. That is how I take 605 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: care of myself. That's so important. So how can folks 606 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: who might be out there listening either support you during 607 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: this time or support the criminal justice work that you're 608 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: involved in. Now, Um, well, you know, I just think 609 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: it's important that, look, we do have free speech in 610 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: this country, but that means that we allow hate speech. 611 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: I mean, the First Amendment is actually created to protect 612 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: the worst kind of speech possible. It's not created to 613 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: protect the speech everybody loves right. So, but we also 614 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: have to be able to identify and call out hate speech. 615 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: So what I would say, just to help create a 616 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: safer space, um, in any kind of public discourse in 617 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 1: the media, in social media, is to call out hate speech, 618 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: and this is hate speech. What you're doing and saying 619 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: is hate speech. Report hate speech, you know, and then 620 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: let the platforms decide what they're gonna do with it. 621 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: That's one way to make a more safer space for 622 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: all of us online and even in real life. Um. 623 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: But in order to support the justice work, I think, 624 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: you know, the cases that we do on undisclosed, We've 625 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: covered about twenty five cases from different parts of the country. 626 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 1: Just listening to the cases, reaching out to the defendants. 627 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: You can find a lot of information online writing to them, 628 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: leaching out to your local I mean, my work is 629 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: pretty focused on innocence work, but criminal justice reform is 630 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: much brought is needed in a much more brighter way. 631 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: But certainly you can reach out to your local Innocence 632 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: UM chapters to ask how you can support them. But 633 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: believe me, there's a lot of incarce righted people behind 634 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: bars who have not had visitors and years who have 635 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: nobody to write them, who have nobody to call. So 636 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: in that way, Non is incredibly blessed. I mean he's 637 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: never not had family support and friends and people to 638 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: visit him and love him. But there are so many 639 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: people who have nobody and so just finding organizations that 640 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: can connect you to those kinds of people, writing letters 641 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: once or twice a month, you can change somebody's life 642 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: like that. Can you tell us a little bit about 643 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: the upcoming book. Oh yeah, it's a complete departure from 644 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: any of the work that I am known for. It's 645 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: called Fatty Fatty Boom Boom, and it's a memoir. Fatty 646 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: Fetty boom Boom was one of my many childhood nicknames 647 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: because I've always struggled with late issues. Um so the 648 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: memoirs about food, fat and family, and I think it 649 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: will resonate with a lot of people, a lot of 650 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: people who have spent their lives struggling with UM, who 651 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 1: love food and struggle with weight and have to deal 652 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: with family. I love food, man, what can I do? 653 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, so, and my family loves food and 654 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: they want to feed me, but also they want me 655 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: to lose weight. It's like never kind of works out, 656 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: um So, but it was, it was, It was a 657 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: fun right. It was fun to write it because it 658 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: was very different than like some of the more serious 659 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 1: stuff that I do. Our voices matter and we shouldn't 660 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: have to put up with a digital landscape that just 661 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: allows for our voices to be drowned out by harassment. 662 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: I know it can be hard to speak up, to 663 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: keep joining the conversation, to keep using our voices, but 664 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: that's exactly what harassmers want, for us to just shut 665 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: up and go away. And even as she's facing a 666 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: flood of threats and harassment, Robbia hopes that other women, 667 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: especially women of color, won't let this kind of thing 668 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: stop them. The only message I would want to leave 669 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: with especially to UM women of color too, peopleho are 670 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: marginalized in any way, UM in our society is not 671 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: to let people push you out of spaces. Don't ever 672 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: let it happen. Just don't let it happen. Stand your ground. 673 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this podcast, please help us grow by subscribing. 674 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 675 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: just want to say hi. We'd love to hear from 676 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: you at Hello at tangoi dot com. Disinformed is brought 677 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: to you by There Are No Girls on the Internet. 678 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and unbost Creative. Jonathan 679 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tary Harrison is our supervising 680 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: producer and engineer. Michael Lamato is our contributing producer. I'm 681 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: your host Bridget Todd. For more great podcast check out 682 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get 683 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: your podcasts.