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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's West Kasova. We want to bring you

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Speaker 1: something new this weekend and introduce you to one of

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Speaker 1: our favorite podcasts from WAMU and NPR. The one A podcast,

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Speaker 1: hosted by Jen White, looks beyond the headlines to get

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Speaker 1: to the heart of the story. Bloomberg News collaborated with

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Speaker 1: one A this week for a series called Life and Debt.

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Speaker 1: The series explorers debts big and small, from the federal

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Speaker 1: debt ceiling to the impact of credit cards, medical debt,

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Speaker 1: and student loans, and today's show is all about student

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Speaker 1: loan debt. Currently, the Supreme Court is deciding the fate

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Speaker 1: of President Biden's student relief plan, and at the same time,

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Speaker 1: the pandemic arapause on student loan payments is set to end.

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Speaker 1: Here's Jen with more.

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Speaker 2: It's a weight felt by over forty three million Americans

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Speaker 2: and that includes many of you.

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Speaker 3: I graduated with my PhD at over one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty thousand dollars in debt federal debt, student loans, and

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Speaker 3: an additional twenty five to thirty thousand dollars in private

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Speaker 3: student loan debt.

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Speaker 4: I have about one hundred and forty thousand dollars in

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Speaker 4: student debt. I am a first generation lawyer.

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Speaker 5: I have over eighty thousand dollars in student loan debt,

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Speaker 5: most of which is interest, and there is vertal chance

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Speaker 5: I'll be able to pay it off anytime in my life.

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Speaker 4: Those of us in Generation XT we did take out

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Speaker 4: student loans. And meanwhile, we do also have children that

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Speaker 4: are on their way to college or are in college

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Speaker 4: right now. And if we could get some relief in

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Speaker 4: our unsudent loan debt, it will be really helpful in

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Speaker 4: letting us have the opportunity to help pay for our

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Speaker 4: own children instead of adding more and more onto student

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Speaker 4: learn debt among all of us.

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Speaker 2: According to the Education Data Initiative, the average student loan

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Speaker 2: debt balances upwards of forty thousand dollars and the cost

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Speaker 2: of college keeps rising. Over the past twenty years, college

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Speaker 2: tuition at in state public universities has risen one hundred

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Speaker 2: and seventy five percent. The numbers can be dizzying, especially

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Speaker 2: for recent high school grads. The Supreme Court is set

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Speaker 2: to decide the fate of President Biden's student debt relief plan.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, the pandemic era pause on student

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Speaker 2: loan payments is set to end. For over three years now,

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Speaker 2: borrowers with federal loans haven't had to pay a dime,

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Speaker 2: but it all may be about to change. For this

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Speaker 2: installment of our Life and Debt series and collaboration with

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg News, we take a closer look at student debt

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Speaker 2: and what comes next. I'm Jen White. You're listening to

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Speaker 2: the one, a podcast where we get to the heart

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Speaker 2: of the story. Here to help us through it is

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Speaker 2: Akaela Garth. She's a White House correspondent with Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 2: Betsy Mayott is the founder and president of the Institute

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Speaker 2: of Student Loan Advisors. It provides free advice on student loans.

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Speaker 2: She's been working in the student loan industry doing compliance

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Speaker 2: and advocacy work for over twenty years. And Adam Minski.

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Speaker 2: He's an attorney who focuses on helping student loan borrowers

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Speaker 2: in their families. He's also a senior contributor at Forbes.

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Speaker 2: Thank you all for joining us. So let's first just

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Speaker 2: parse out the student loan debt relief avenues. So first

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Speaker 2: came the emergency pause for a student debt enacted by

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Speaker 2: President Trump during the start of the pandemic. Adam explained

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Speaker 2: that initial pause and how it's been able to be

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Speaker 2: extended now for over three years.

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Speaker 6: Sure, of course, So President Trump initially, through executive authority,

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Speaker 6: paused all payments and interest on government held federal student

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Speaker 6: loans in response to the COVID nineteen pandemic in March

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty, and Congress then codified that shortly after that

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Speaker 6: through passage of the Cares Act, which was that large

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Speaker 6: stimulus package that was passed as the economy started tanking

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Speaker 6: as a result of the pandemic. Now, Congress originally envisioned

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Speaker 6: the payment pause lasting six months, but then President Trump

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Speaker 6: and then subsequently President Biden used executive authority to extend

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Speaker 6: the pause repeatedly beyond that original six months, and they

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Speaker 6: relied on the Heroes Act of two thousand and three,

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Speaker 6: which is an older piece of legislation that gives the

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Speaker 6: Education Department pretty broad authority to modify or waive rules

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Speaker 6: governing federal student loan programs during times of an emergency

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Speaker 6: such as a pandemic. So President Trump used that authority

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Speaker 6: to extend the pause, and then President Trump and then

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Speaker 6: President Biden followed suit after that.

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Speaker 2: Well, this week, Education Secretary Miguel Cardona's spook at a

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Speaker 2: Senate hearing. Here's what he said.

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Speaker 7: And we're preparing to restart repayment because the emergency is

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Speaker 7: period is over, and we're preparing our our borrowers to restart.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So preparing borrowers to start paying Betsy. When should

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Speaker 2: people be prepared to start sending in that money?

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Speaker 8: Again, Well, we don't have the exact timeline yet, other

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Speaker 8: than the last we heard that a prominent education had

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Speaker 8: stated that the current pause would end either sixty days

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Speaker 8: after the Supreme Court gives their decision on the Biden

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Speaker 8: Harris det relief or by August, whichever comes sooner. So

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Speaker 8: as far as when people should be prepared to actually

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Speaker 8: have to hit that make a payment button, I'm estimating

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Speaker 8: somewhere around September or October.

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Speaker 2: Adam, is there any likelihood of another extension of this

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Speaker 2: pause on repayments?

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Speaker 6: It's a really good question, you know. So the COVID

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Speaker 6: emergency has officially ended, and that's been a central justification

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Speaker 6: of the repeated extensions of the relief. Now that that

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Speaker 6: has ended, you know, they're certainly arguably is less of

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Speaker 6: a rationale for extending it. That being said, the Heroes

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Speaker 6: Act doesn't necessarily require that the emergency be ongoing for

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Speaker 6: relief to be granted under that statute. In theory, the

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Speaker 6: administration could argue that the relief is still in response

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Speaker 6: to that emergency and the harm caused by it, even

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Speaker 6: though the emergency has technically ended. That being said, there's

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Speaker 6: no signs as far as I'm aware that the administration

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Speaker 6: is seriously considering a further extension. They are saying that

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Speaker 6: they are preparing to return to repayment this fall. But

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Speaker 6: some folks might remember that we've been through this before.

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Speaker 6: There's been several times where we were told that the

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Speaker 6: pause this was the final extension, only for it to

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Speaker 6: be extended again at the last moment. So I suppose

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Speaker 6: anything is possible, but I think it would be prudent

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Speaker 6: for borrowers to anticipate or return to repayment in September

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Speaker 6: or October.

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Speaker 2: As Betsy reference, I want to get into the details

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Speaker 2: of President biden Student Debt Forgiveness Plan BEFER sequila. How

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Speaker 2: much of a priority is student debt relief for President Biden.

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Speaker 9: Student debt relief is something that was one of Biden's

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Speaker 9: campaign promises when he ran for president in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 9: and on the trail he made this commitment to cancel

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Speaker 9: ten thousand dollars in student debt per borrower, and in

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Speaker 9: pursuing this program, he even went beyond that to extend

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Speaker 9: twenty thousand dollars in relief for pel grant recipients. And

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Speaker 9: for those who don't know, those are people who are

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Speaker 9: undergraduate students who basically display an exceptional amount of financial need.

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Speaker 9: And that commitment was seen as a pretty big deal,

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Speaker 9: especially because Biden has branded himself as a moderate and

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Speaker 9: this was an idea that had been talked about by

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Speaker 9: progressives like Bernie Sanders for a year. So it was

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Speaker 9: really seen as a shift of the center in democratic politics.

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Speaker 10: And one might ask, even though he.

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Speaker 9: Campaigned on this in twenty twenty, why the president waited

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Speaker 9: almost nineteen months.

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Speaker 10: To release it.

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Speaker 9: And so there's a number of reasons why that could

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Speaker 9: have happened, and one is we know that Biden's team

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Speaker 9: internally heavily debated the merits of broad student debt cancelation,

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Speaker 9: and then the president had also hoped that Congress might

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Speaker 9: act on its own to pursue debt relief. Another reason

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Speaker 9: on the timing potentially is because the policy isn't popular

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Speaker 9: with some moderate Democrats, think Joe Manchin and the White

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Speaker 9: House may have been waiting to pass some of its

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Speaker 9: key legislative pieces, like the Inflation Reduction Act before introducing

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Speaker 9: this plan, in order to avoid upsetting some of those lawmakers.

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Speaker 9: And lastly, because it was released in August, just months

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Speaker 9: before the midterms, it was also viewed as a way

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Speaker 9: to energize the base. So, whether it's all or some

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Speaker 9: or those of those reasons, waiting nearly two years could

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Speaker 9: have hurt the administration's legal argument here because they were

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Speaker 9: relying on the pandemic. And as you know, my other

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Speaker 9: panelists noted earlier that relief for that emergency declaration has

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Speaker 9: now ended just about a week ago.

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Speaker 2: Adam, can you give us just a brief rundown on

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Speaker 2: the cases before the Supreme Court holding up Biden's student

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Speaker 2: loan forgiveness plan.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so, I mean before anyone could actually receive any

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Speaker 6: student loan forgiveness under this plan, there were a number

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Speaker 6: of legal challenges trying to stop it. Most of those

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Speaker 6: challenges were tossed, but two of them resulted in the

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Speaker 6: program being blocked, and then the Biden administration appealed those

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Speaker 6: decisions to the Supreme Court, which agreed to take up

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Speaker 6: the cases. The two cases are somewhat different but similar

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Speaker 6: arguments essentially so. The first case involves a coalition of

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Speaker 6: Republican led states which are arguing that the debt relief

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Speaker 6: plan would financially harm a state related loan servicing entity

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Speaker 6: called Mohila based in Missouri, and that harm would in

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Speaker 6: turn then harm the finances of the states. The second

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Speaker 6: case involves a couple of individual borrowers who aren't entitled

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Speaker 6: under the rules of the program to receive the maximum

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Speaker 6: amount of forgiveness, the twenty thousand dollars, and they're arguing

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Speaker 6: that the way the program was established prevented them from

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Speaker 6: publicly commenting on it and participating in the regulations, and

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Speaker 6: that has harmed them as well. The two major legal

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Speaker 6: questions though in both of these cases number one whether

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Speaker 6: the program, of course is legal. Just like with the

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Speaker 6: payment pause, the Biden administration relied on the pandemic authority

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Speaker 6: under the Heroes Act to authorize the program. But the

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Speaker 6: second question, and arguably the one that ultimately might be

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Speaker 6: the issue that decides the cases, is the issue of

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Speaker 6: standing whether the challengers who brought these cases in the

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Speaker 6: first place can demonstrate a harm that is both concrete

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Speaker 6: and directly tied to the program that would entitle them

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Speaker 6: to the relief they're seeking, which is striking down the

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Speaker 6: program entirely for everyone.

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Speaker 2: A Kayla, Those are the Supreme Court cases. But Republicans

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Speaker 2: are taking game at student debt relief in multiple bills.

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Speaker 2: Explain what they're doing.

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Speaker 9: Yes, Well, I would say that this plan has received

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Speaker 9: pretty universal opposition from Republicans since the White House has

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Speaker 9: announced it, and there's basically two avenues in Congress right

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Speaker 9: now that they're pursuing to cancel or nullify this program.

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Speaker 9: One is through McCarthy's proposed debt limit bill and also

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Speaker 9: through a separate bill that hopes to nullify it. Both

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Speaker 9: of those face very small chances of succeeding, but that's

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Speaker 9: what we're seeing in Congress.

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Speaker 2: Okaylo, Why do Republicans say they don't support this student

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Speaker 2: debt relief plan.

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Speaker 9: Well, one of the reasons that many Republicans raise is

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Speaker 9: they say that that price.

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Speaker 10: Tag is just simply too high.

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Speaker 9: The Congressional Bushet Budget Office estimates that just debt cancelation

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Speaker 9: alone could cost the government as much as four hundred

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Speaker 9: billion dollars, and coupled with the program's new income driven

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Speaker 9: repayment program, which basically slashes monthly payments for barers, it

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Speaker 9: could be closer to six hundred billion dollars according to

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Speaker 9: their estimates. So they say, in an inflationary environment, it's

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Speaker 9: just not a responsible use of money. Now, I should

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Speaker 9: note that economists are divided over whether it would actually

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Speaker 9: impact inflation, but nonetheless, Republicans would rather see that amount

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Speaker 9: of federal money left alone.

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Speaker 10: Some of them also just say they don't believe the

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Speaker 10: president has the authority.

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Speaker 9: They say that the Constitution doesn't grant him or President

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Speaker 9: Biden specifically that kind of power.

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Speaker 10: They say that only Congress has this power.

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Speaker 9: And lastly, they think that it's unfair to people who

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Speaker 9: chose not to pursue college because of how expensive it was,

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Speaker 9: or chose to be a service member or.

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Speaker 10: Go the military route.

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Speaker 9: And we know that Republicans their base tends to be

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Speaker 9: people who are low income, blue collar, and so for them,

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Speaker 9: this is just simply not popular.

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Speaker 10: Politically, Betsy.

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Speaker 2: When we're talking about President Biden's plan, the one that's

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Speaker 2: before the Supreme Court, right now, how far will it

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Speaker 2: go to relieving some of this debt pressure from students

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Speaker 2: if it goes through. We're not talking about wholesale giving

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Speaker 2: people just you don't have to pay anything back. It's

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Speaker 2: just a portion, right.

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Speaker 10: Well, for some people it will.

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Speaker 8: It would mean if it were to make it through,

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Speaker 8: it would mean all of a sudden having a zero balance.

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Speaker 8: And those people tend to be people that either have

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Speaker 8: been paying their loans since the earth cooled, or people

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Speaker 8: that have lower debt balances to begin with. And while

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Speaker 8: that might seem unfair, I personally appreciated the mindfulness of

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Speaker 8: this because, believe it or not, people with lower balances

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Speaker 8: from the onset actually tend to have a higher default

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Speaker 8: rate than those with the six figure balances. And the

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Speaker 8: reason for that is the vast majority of borrowers that

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Speaker 8: end up that come out of school with lower student

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Speaker 8: loan balances, it's because they never finish their degree. So

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Speaker 8: these are borrowers that have debt and no degree. So

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Speaker 8: it could have a life changing impact, even though it's

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Speaker 8: for some borrowers that end up with the six figure

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Speaker 8: amounts it might just be a drop in the bucket.

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Speaker 2: Well, we also hear from a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: talk about the interest they pay on loans and how

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Speaker 2: that interest amount sometimes is more than what they actually

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Speaker 2: took out in the first place. Can you explain that.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so we hear about that a lot, you know,

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Speaker 8: especially one of the features of the COVID pause is

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Speaker 8: not only did it pause payments, but it paused interests.

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Speaker 8: Those people have been enjoying a zero percent interest rate,

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Speaker 8: And I hear from a lot of borrowers saying, you

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Speaker 8: know what, if forgiveness goes through, great, but if they

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Speaker 8: could keep the interest at zero or reduce the interest,

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Speaker 8: that would be a much bigger impact on my overall

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Speaker 8: repayment success. You know, federal student loans have a pretty

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Speaker 8: unique feature where you can get payments that are lower

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Speaker 8: than what your typical ten year term would be payments

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Speaker 8: based on your income and so on. The benefit of

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Speaker 8: that is that it keeps the payments of wardable. But

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Speaker 8: the negative of that is it extends the term and

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Speaker 8: therefore the amount of interest that you're paying on your loan,

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Speaker 8: which is why we're hearing all these stories of people

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Speaker 8: who have paid back much much more than they've borrowed,

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Speaker 8: but yet still have a balance.

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Speaker 2: Now, President Biden is looking at other ways to lighten

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Speaker 2: the student debt low. The Department of Education is canceled

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Speaker 2: more than sixty six billion dollars in debt under programs

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Speaker 2: already put in place. Adam, what are some other options

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Speaker 2: for borrowers who are looking for relief?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, the good news here is that despite

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Speaker 6: the block by the federal courts, right now is the

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Speaker 6: Supreme Court considerers whether to uphold or strike down Biden's

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Speaker 6: one time cancelation plan. There's all these other programs that

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Speaker 6: are already working for people. One of the big ones

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Speaker 6: that's been in the news a lot lately is something

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Speaker 6: called the Limited PSLF waiver, which stands for the Public

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Speaker 6: Service Loan Forgiveness Program. This has been a long troubled

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Speaker 6: program that can provide loan forgiveness to folks who commit

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Speaker 6: to careers working in nonprofit and public organizations. After ten years,

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Speaker 6: it's had a whole bunch of problems, rules that are complex,

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Speaker 6: poor servicing. So the Biden administration relaxed a lot of

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Speaker 6: those rules and allowed more people to qualify, and the

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Speaker 6: result has been something like six hundred and fifty thousand

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Speaker 6: barrowers I believe have gotten their loans completely discharged under

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Speaker 6: that waiver. There's also a new initiative going into effect

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Speaker 6: as we speak, called the IDR Account Adjustment, which waives

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Speaker 6: some rules and requirements for folks seeking loan forgiveness under

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Speaker 6: income driven Repayment plans. There has been a streamlined data

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Speaker 6: sharing initiative to make it easier for disabled borrowers to

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Speaker 6: get relief through the Total Permanent Disability Discharge Program, and

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Speaker 6: the administration has also released new regulations governing a number

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Speaker 6: of loan forgiveness and discharge programs, including Borrower Defense to Repayment,

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Speaker 6: which is a program designed to help people who were

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Speaker 6: defrauded by their schools. A lot of these new regulations,

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Speaker 6: which are set to go into effect this summer, will

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Speaker 6: make it easier for to apply for and receive relief

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Speaker 6: under a number of these programs.

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Speaker 2: Betsy, what about at the state level? What program should

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Speaker 2: browers be aware of that could offer them some debt relief?

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Speaker 8: So, you know, as Adam mentioned, some of the most

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Speaker 8: well known student loan forgiveness programs such as Public Service

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Speaker 8: loan forgiveness and the Income Driven Plans. But what a

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Speaker 8: lot of people don't realize is there's actually over one

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Speaker 8: hundred student loan forgiveness programs many. I would go so

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Speaker 8: far as to say most states have some sort, if

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Speaker 8: not multiple, student loan forgiveness programs. A lot of them

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Speaker 8: are based on profession. There's quite a few for the

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Speaker 8: people in the healthcare industry, or teachers or public defenders.

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Speaker 8: But there's also some sort of unique ones, such as

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Speaker 8: the state of Kansas that offers student loan forgiveness just

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Speaker 8: for moving to Kansas. So we have a database of

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Speaker 8: those forgiveness programs on our website, but just using your

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Speaker 8: Google skills, you'll come across quite a few of them

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Speaker 8: a Kuila.

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Speaker 2: How much will student debt play a part in the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four presidential election?

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Speaker 9: If you look at polling, the electorate at large, attitudes.

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Speaker 10: On student debt is pretty mixed.

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Speaker 9: But if you look at specific demographics like black voters,

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Speaker 9: Latino voters, and particularly young voters, that calculus changes and

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Speaker 9: the policy is pretty popular with those groups. Young voters

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Speaker 9: specifically turned out to be very influential in the midterms,

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Speaker 9: and they were in twenty twenty as well for Biden.

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Speaker 9: But polling shows that while the issue is important for

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Speaker 9: young voters, other issues still were more impactful to their

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Speaker 9: vote in the midterms. This Harvard youth pull for voters

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Speaker 9: between eighteen and twenty nine showed only nine percent of

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Speaker 9: young people said student debt was within their top two

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Speaker 9: most important issues, so other issues like abortion, climate change,

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Speaker 9: inflation were still more important for that voting block. But

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Speaker 9: at the same time, the vast majority of a young

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Speaker 9: America and want to see some kind of government action,

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Speaker 9: and the voters of tomorrow pool show that young people

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Speaker 9: know about Biden's student loan forgiveness program more than any

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Speaker 9: of his other policies. So while it may not necessarily

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Speaker 9: drive their vote, it's still top of mind. And it's

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Speaker 9: hard to imagine that if the Supreme Court does strike

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Speaker 9: down this program that there won't be disappointment here well.

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Speaker 2: Education Secretary Miguel Cardona said that restarting payments will be

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Speaker 2: unprecedented and quote a huge lift for our team. Adam,

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Speaker 2: what logistical concerns do you have if and when those

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Speaker 2: payments start up again?

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Speaker 6: I have plenty. You know, there's a couple of sides

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Speaker 6: of this. You know, there's the fact that you know,

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Speaker 6: something like forty million borrowers have not had to make

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Speaker 6: payments on their loans or frankly even look at their

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Speaker 6: accounts in many cases for over three years, and a

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Speaker 6: lot has changed during that time. The financial circumstances may

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Speaker 6: have changed, someone may have gotten married or divorced, their

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Speaker 6: job has changed, The loan servicing industry has gone through

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Speaker 6: a lot of change. Millions of borrowers have had their

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Speaker 6: accounts shifted over to new services during that time. The

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Speaker 6: Department of Education is also, unfortunately facing a bit of

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Speaker 6: a cash crunch. They were flat funded, The Office of

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Speaker 6: Federal Sternade was flat funded in the last budget. And

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Speaker 6: so what's essentially happening is these loan servicers and the

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Speaker 6: Department of Education have all these new programs to implement,

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Speaker 6: but no new money to do it. And some loan

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Speaker 6: servicers have actually started laying off workers and cutting customer

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Speaker 6: service hours. And so it's creating what could be a

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Speaker 6: perfect storm of problems where you have millions of borrowers

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Speaker 6: simultaneously all resuming repayment, which has never happened before, while

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Speaker 6: the Department of Education and the loan servicing system is

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Speaker 6: frankly about to buckle without enough resources or funding or

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Speaker 6: staff to handle it. It could be a real problem.

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Speaker 6: I have concerns, and a lot of other consumer advocates

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Speaker 6: have serious concerns as well.

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Speaker 2: Betsy, how are you preparing borrowers for potential care.

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Speaker 8: Well, to speak to Adams comments, I'm suggesting that they

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Speaker 8: prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Put

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Speaker 8: their patients pants on is another way I put it.

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Speaker 8: But make sure they know who holds their student loans.

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Speaker 8: Log onto student aid dot gov and they can get

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Speaker 8: a list of their federal student loans and who's currently

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Speaker 8: the servicer. Make sure their servicer has their current contact information,

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Speaker 8: and then to make sure they don't miss any important

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Speaker 8: information or deadlines, open all the things you know, open

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Speaker 8: all the letters, open all the emails, and finally get

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Speaker 8: an idea. Now what your monthly payment's going to be,

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Speaker 8: and if it's not a number that is affordable and

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Speaker 8: that'll fit in your budget. Utilize the tools available at

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Speaker 8: student aidc Gov in other places to figure out which

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Speaker 8: payment plan will best fit your budget and get your

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Speaker 8: paperwork in for that.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing you wanted to mention, Betsy with the

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Speaker 2: return of payment is also the potential resurgence of scams.

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Speaker 2: What should burrowers be looking out for well.

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Speaker 8: Unfortunately, all these great programs and improvements to student loan

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Speaker 8: regulations that have happened in addition to is out and

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Speaker 8: put it the perfect storm that could be on the

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Speaker 8: horizon for student loan repayment. This is a Birthday, Thanksgiving, Easter,

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Speaker 8: and Christmas for the student loan scammers. It gives them

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Speaker 8: a lot of what sound like reasonable talking points to

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Speaker 8: bate potential victims of these student loan scams. The bottom

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Speaker 8: line is, if it sounds too good to be true,

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Speaker 8: it probably is. And maybe even more important, you never

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Speaker 8: have to pay for student loan advice or for access

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Speaker 8: to a program or a repayment option that you wouldn't

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Speaker 8: normally be eligible for. There isn't a person on the planet,

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Speaker 8: including the people on this program today, that can get

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Speaker 8: you access to a benefit that you can't do yourself

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Speaker 8: directly through your loan servicer.

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Speaker 2: In just a moment, we'll hear from Democratic Congresswoman Aana Presley.

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Speaker 2: She cosponsored a bill urging the use of the Higher

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Speaker 2: Education to cancel student loan debt. Akaylab, what are you

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Speaker 2: hearing about that option?

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Speaker 9: Me and my colleague Nancy Cook, I've been reporting that

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Speaker 9: the administration is under pressure to basically use that act

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Speaker 9: as a plan B in case they're not successful in

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Speaker 9: the Supreme Court. So I'm definitely interested to hear what

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Speaker 9: the congresswoman has to say about that option.

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Speaker 2: Akayla Gardner is a White House correspondent with Bloomberg News.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for being here. Let's take a moment and go

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Speaker 2: back to our voicemail box. We get this message from

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Speaker 2: one of you.

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Speaker 11: The student loan crisis in this country has gotten to

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Speaker 11: the point where it's just ridiculous to think that someone

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Speaker 11: might be against just forgiving it all. I personally have

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Speaker 11: very little student loans compared to some other people I know,

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Speaker 11: and I won't get as much from this forgiveness, but

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Speaker 11: even the amount I'm getting would be incredible.

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Speaker 2: Let's add another voice to the conversation. Congresswoman Ayana Presley

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Speaker 2: joins us now. She's a Democrat representing Massachusetts seventh District.

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Speaker 2: Representative Presley, thanks for joining us.

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Speaker 12: Good to be with you.

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Speaker 2: So Republicans are seeking to thwart President Biden's student debt

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Speaker 2: forgiveness plan. A house GOP build targets President Biden's proposed

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Speaker 2: income driven repayment plan. This issue was turning out to

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Speaker 2: be a hard fight for Democrats. How confident are you

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Speaker 2: that student debt relief will be a reality?

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Speaker 13: Well, look, we fought for years to get this done

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Speaker 13: and to move student debt cancelation. This was an issue

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Speaker 13: that people tried to fringe and marginalize. We worked for

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Speaker 13: over two years to build a big and broad and

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Speaker 13: diverse coalition of borrowers and union families and workers and

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Speaker 13: presidents and civil rights organizations the number one issue for

441
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 13: the NAACP in fact, and ultimately President Biden acted being

442
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,720
Speaker 13: responsive to the demands of that coalition, but to the

443
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 13: needs of the people burden by this nearly two trillion

444
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 13: dollar crisis. And the President acted and by executive action

445
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 13: with the stroke of a pen, wanting to provide this

446
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 13: transform to relief for some forty million plus people, those

447
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 13: with PEL grants twenty thousand dollars canceled, and NONPEL grant

448
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 13: recipients ten thousand dollars. This is an economic justice issue.

449
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 13: It's a gender justic issue. Nearly two thirds of this

450
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 13: two tillion dollar crisis or war by women. And it's

451
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 13: a racial justice issue because black and brown and black

452
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 13: bars in particular borrow and default at higher rates, and

453
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 13: so this will zero out for one in four black borrowers.

454
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 13: This stands to zero out their debt completely.

455
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: But again, congresswomen, right now, we know there are two

456
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 2: cases in the Supreme Court around debt relief. We know

457
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: the GOP has a number of bills targeting this proposal

458
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: from President Biden. Will this be a reality for people

459
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: who are facing this debt? Is this going to happen?

460
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: Do you think?

461
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 13: Well, Listen, people did not think we'd get an executive

462
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 13: action on student debt cancelation. So I'm always going to

463
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 13: to fight the good fight, particularly on an issue as

464
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 13: consequential as this one. This debt is choking people, and

465
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 13: it's not just a millennial or Gen Z issue, and

466
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 13: it's disingenuous for people to say, well, I did it

467
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 13: and others can too. We should want more and better

468
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 13: for the next generation. But moreover, I have seventy six

469
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 13: year old in my district on fixed incomes who are

470
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 13: worried they're going to die, are still paying on this debt,

471
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 13: and at this time they are paying more than they

472
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 13: even borrowed. Educators who have confided with me about suicide ideation.

473
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 13: The psychological toll of this debt, debt they took on

474
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 13: because they want to teach our babies, and they can

475
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 13: barely meet the monthly minimums. I'm not surprised that the

476
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 13: GOP is doing everything in their power, you know, and

477
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 13: have many co conspirators in that effort, unfortunately, to obstruct

478
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 13: and overturn the will the majority.

479
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:53,399
Speaker 10: Of the people.

480
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 13: I understand where it is with the Supreme Court, but

481
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 13: the legal case is sound. President Biden has the authority.

482
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 13: This is transformative, life changing relief for some forty million

483
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 13: plus people, and the case is the legal case is sound.

484
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: I want you to hear from one of our listeners.

485
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 14: We need to be fiscally responsible for our debts and

486
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 14: going on to college, one should expect if you cannot

487
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 14: pay in full that there will be a balance at

488
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 14: the end of your college time. I also feel that

489
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 14: the money that the government wants to spend in relief

490
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 14: would better be spent on the high schools and counselors,

491
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 14: constructing parents and family and perspective students.

492
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: As you've alluded to, Congresswoman, you've heard this argument before.

493
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: People take out house loans and credit card loans and

494
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: they aren't given relief. Specifically when we're talking about taxpayer money,

495
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: and we should note that about eighty three percent of

496
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 2: American adults don't have student loans. What is the art

497
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: you make for providing relief through taxpayer money for those

498
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: who did take out loans?

499
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 13: Jen, Again, this is an issue of consequence that is

500
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 13: affecting people from every walk of life. It is destabilizing families,

501
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 13: choking at really the promise of our families, our communities,

502
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 13: and this country. And it's disingenuous to use really a

503
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 13: dated comparison that is hardly an apples to apples comparison.

504
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 13: You can't say we live in a meritocracy and that

505
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 13: education is life's great equalizer when we have put it

506
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 13: farther and farther out of reach for people. The cost

507
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 13: of higher education is increased by one hundred and fifty percent.

508
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 13: So I agree that there are other there's other work

509
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 13: that we need to do. We have to expand pell grants,

510
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 13: we have to invest in HBCUs, in vocational education, there

511
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 13: are so many other ways that we need to get

512
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 13: at this.

513
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 12: But it's not or it's both.

514
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 13: And because again, this is impacting people from every walk

515
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 13: of life, from seniors to new parents. And again to

516
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 13: disparate impact on black and brown communities. For example, Black

517
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 13: Americans have been locked out of every major federal relief

518
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 13: program in this country, from the GI Bill to the

519
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 13: Homestead AD. Are families targeted by redlining, denying us the

520
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 13: ability to build generational wealth, which is why we borrow

521
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 13: at higher rates. So this is an economic justice issue,

522
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 13: it said, gender justice issues, or racial justice issue. These

523
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 13: legal challenges that have been mounted are nothing more than

524
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 13: frivolous partisan attempts to prevent what is a legal, popular,

525
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 13: and sorely needed policy from going into effect. The Supreme

526
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 13: Court should uphold the law and affirm the president's authority

527
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 13: to cancel student debt.

528
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: You're a co sponsor of a bill calling for President

529
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: Biden to use an executive order to cancel up to

530
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars for federal loan borrowers.

531
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: Now.

532
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty one, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in

533
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 2: a press briefing that President Biden couldn't forgive student debt

534
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: even if he wants to. There's disagreement over the of

535
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: the president's authority to fully forgive student loans. What's your

536
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: argument for why he has that legal authority.

537
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 12: Well, the President has the legal authority.

538
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 13: It's been given to him by Congress, and the same

539
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 13: authority that was used to pause student loan payments during

540
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 13: the pandemic, which myself and others advocated for. It's the

541
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 13: same authority. So the legal cases sound. The President has

542
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 13: acted being responsive to the demands of this broad and

543
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 13: diverse issues based coalition, but moreover, responsive to the needs

544
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 13: of the people. And executive action is the most direct

545
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 13: and precise way to get this done. And the legal

546
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 13: authority is clear, and the President, I'm grateful he's made

547
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 13: a commitment. Regardless of the court his should find a

548
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 13: way he will to get this done.

549
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: If the Supreme Court rules against Biden's plan, what other

550
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: options does Congress have to keep pursuing student loan forgiveness.

551
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 13: Look, I'm a firm believer that organized power is realized power.

552
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,479
Speaker 13: We've seen that over the last two years, and that

553
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 13: people did not even think we would get to the

554
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 13: point of executive action on student debt cancelation. So you know,

555
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 13: as an organizer, I you know, I don't suffer for

556
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 13: contingency plans. I always have one, But at this time

557
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 13: I'm not seating any ground the Supreme Court should uphold

558
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 13: the president's legal authority. The authority is clear, and they

559
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 13: should just uphold the law.

560
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 12: So I'm not seating any ground here.

561
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 13: As an organizer, I always have contingency plans, but you

562
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 13: know we're not their Student debt cancelation is a popular policy,

563
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 13: it's legally sound, it's deeply needed. It'll be transformational.

564
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 7: Uh.

565
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 13: When I think about the people that I've heard from

566
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 13: throughout this country who during the pandemic spoke about the

567
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 13: impact it had on their lives to have that pause

568
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 13: on payments, and that was just during during the pandemic.

569
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 13: Imagine just how transformational and game changing will be when

570
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 13: we get this done for this forty million plus people

571
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 13: who stand to benefit from this relief.

572
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: That's US Representative Ayana Presley. She's a Democrat and represents

573
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: Massachusetts seventh district. Congresswoman. Thanks for joining us. Thank you,

574
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: And we're talking about student loan debt and answering your

575
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: questions with Betsy Mayott, founder and president of the Institute

576
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 2: of Student Loan Advisors, and Adam Minsky. He's an attorney

577
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: who focuses I'm curious to hear from each of you,

578
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: your thoughts on the conversation we just heard with Congresswoman Presley.

579
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: What stood out for you.

580
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 8: Well, you know this is you know, as she mentioned,

581
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 8: this student loan forgiveness has been a really important issue

582
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 8: for her office as well as, for example, Senator Warren's office.

583
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 8: So I expected the messaging from her that we received,

584
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 8: and you know, I agree that this forgiveness program, if

585
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 8: it were to go through the Supreme Court, will be

586
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 8: life changing for a lot of borrowers. I mean, going

587
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 8: back to what I said earlier about the borrowers with

588
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 8: the lower balances are the ones that struggle the most.

589
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 8: We're not talking just you know, sort of getting rid

590
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 8: of a debt that someone agreed to so much. We're

591
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 8: talking about people who this will make the difference of

592
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 8: whether they can pay their light bill or not. So,

593
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 8: you know, I agree that this form of student loan

594
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 8: forgiveness can be transformational, especially to the most marginalized borrowers.

595
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: Adam, briefly your thoughts.

596
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 6: So, you know, one you know, very interesting question here

597
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 6: that we heard a little bit from the congresswoman on

598
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 6: was you know this idea is is there going to

599
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 6: be a backup plan, a contingency plan if the Supreme

600
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 6: Court does wind up striking down the program. There has

601
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 6: been a push by a coalition of consumer advocacy groups

602
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 6: and some legal experts to get the buy An administration

603
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 6: to consider essentially reissuing the program under a different legal

604
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 6: authority under the Higher Education Act if the Court down

605
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 6: the program under the Heroes Act. The Higher Education Act

606
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 6: has its own provision that arguably could provide some authority

607
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 6: to the Education Department to cancel student debt, and the

608
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 6: Administration is actually cited to that authority in a different

609
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 6: context involving broad student loan cancelation. So I think it's

610
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 6: an interesting question. What will the Biden administration do if

611
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 6: the Supreme Court rules against them? Is there a backup

612
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 6: plan and what would it look like.

613
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: Let's go back to our voicemailbox.

614
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 15: Hello, my name is Blake calling from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Essentially,

615
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 15: I think the answer to the student loan debt crisis

616
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 15: is to move towards interest free loans. Doesn't make any

617
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 15: sense for students to be patting the pockets of any

618
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 15: lenders just to get an education, and in fact, we're

619
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 15: already seeing what that does to people on the other end.

620
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 15: It cripples the economy, and it cripples it kind of

621
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 15: mortgages the future. So I think if we can get

622
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 15: towards an interest free type of world where the loans

623
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 15: are basically backed by the federal government not by private lenders,

624
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 15: that would be best for everyone.

625
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: Adam might love to hear your thoughts on that, well.

626
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 6: I mean, one of the problems is that even for

627
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 6: government issued loans, the government is charging an interest rate.

628
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 6: We've heard several times throughout this discussion that one of

629
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 6: the biggest complaints from borrowers is that you can pay

630
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 6: back essentially everything that you borrowed and still owe an

631
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 6: enormous balance because of how interest works and how interest

632
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 6: can accrue in excess of your payments, and interests can

633
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 6: accrue and be capitalized during certain periods, and if something

634
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 6: bad happens, like you slip into default because off a hardship,

635
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 6: then even more fees are at it as well. It

636
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 6: can really become a hopeless situation. I definitely do think

637
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 6: that we need interest reform. One of the nice features

638
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 6: of the proposed overhaul of income driven repayment by the

639
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 6: Biden administration is that it would actually waive any excess

640
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 6: interest that a cruise above and beyond a borrowers monthly

641
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,399
Speaker 6: student loan payment. So that's one example of I think

642
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 6: a broad away array of interest fixes that we need

643
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 6: for the student loan system.

644
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: That's Adam Minski. He's an attorney who focuses on helping

645
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: student loan borrowers and their families. He's also a senior

646
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: contributor at Forbes. Also with us was Betsy Mayott. She's

647
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: the founder and president of the Institute of Student Loan Advisors.

648
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 2: She's been working in the industry doing compliance and advocacy

649
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: work for over twenty years. Thanks to you both. This

650
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: conversation is part of our Life and Debt series in

651
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: collaboration with Bloomberg News. Throughout the series, we discussed the

652
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 2: federal debt, sealing, credit card debt, medical debt, and more.

653
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 2: Today's producer was Michelle Harvin. Barbon Guiano produces our podcast.

654
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American

655
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 2: University in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm Jen and White.

656
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we'll talk more soon. This is

657
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: one ASP