1 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: It was the summer of nineteen seventy five, and my 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: sister Shelley and I got the Hippos Jewelry ever mood rings. 3 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: Our sister Charlene took us to pick them up at 4 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: the store, and Honey, we lost our minds. The ring 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: had this large oval shaped stone in the center that 6 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: would change colors to match your mood. There were seven colors, 7 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: each had a different mood associated with it, So if 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: it turned reddish brown, you were insecure about something. If 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: it was gold and yellow, you were tense. If you 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: were black, it was completely you were upset. If it 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: was blue, you were happy. And this violet color was 12 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: all about passion. Shelley could not wait to see if 13 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: her color changed when she saw her crush. She was 14 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: so hoping for the violet color, and in case she 15 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: ran into her neighborhood nemesis, she was certain that that 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: stone would turn black as a night. I, on the 17 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: other hand, had a better use of this remarkable ring. 18 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: It was going to be a lie detector. All I 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: had to do was get my subject to try the 20 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: ring on and then ask them a few questions to 21 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: see if they were nervous or tense or relaxed, then happy. 22 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: I was finally going to know scientifically that I was 23 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: my parent's favorite child. This is the third part of 24 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: a series on the case of Molly Miller and Colt Hayes. 25 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: It was July seventh, twenty thirteen, when Cold and Molly 26 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: went missing after being in a car chase with their 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: friend con Nip in Wilson, Oklahoma. Now this police chase, 28 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: if y'all remember, it got up to like one hundred 29 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: and twenty miles an hour, went all through some back roads, 30 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: ending near some woods, and Molly and Cot were never 31 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: seen again, even though they made several phone calls to 32 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: friends and to nine one one that night and early 33 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: morning hours the following day. This case is extraordinarily unusual 34 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: because we don't have a crime scene, we don't have 35 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: a sighting of the two after that night. We don't 36 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: have any more phone calls after the eighth. This case 37 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: is bizarre, to say the least. I've brought somebody to 38 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: join us tonight. It's gonna be able to shed some 39 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: light on this thing, y'all. I'm just gonna start by 40 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: saying she is fun, and I don't mean a little bit. 41 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: I don't mean entertaining. I don't mean a good sense 42 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: of humor. I'm talking about wide open, pedaled down fun. 43 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: And she is as smart as she has fun. She 44 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: was just sixteen years old when she started working in 45 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: the family business. While other folks her age were playing 46 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: sports or going to club meetings, she was running background 47 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: checks and speaking with attorneys about things like custodial kidnappings. 48 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: At twenty three, she completed polygraph school. She added greatly 49 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: then to her growing caseload. During this time in her career, 50 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church had members being accused of molestation and abuse. 51 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: Our guests turned her polygraph in as a tool on 52 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: these cases. Because insurance companies they were receiving claims in lawsuits. 53 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: So she struck out and said, hey, I'm going to 54 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: use this to help out with these cases. Right out 55 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: of school, she was booked for a TV appearance. She 56 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: was dubbed then the lie detector lady, and it has 57 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: kind of stuck. She might have started working out as family, 58 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: but I'm going to tell you right now, Yes, her 59 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: dad is her mentor, but anybody that has ever worked 60 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: for their family knows how difficult it is. Nothing has 61 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: been handed to her. She went to school, she studied, 62 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: she graduated, She built up her clientele base. She alone 63 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: has built her reputation. She operates now in seven different 64 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: offices along the East Coast. Y'all, please help me. Welcome 65 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: to Zone seven, Lisa Rabakov. 66 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: Thanks Mac, thanks for having me. It's an absolute pleasure 67 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: and honor not only being here on your podcast, but 68 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 2: being a part of your Zone seven, which is such 69 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: a cherished and special place to be. 70 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: Thank you. I tell you you have been such a 71 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: big part of it for me. Not only have you 72 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: always answered my phone calls and helped me with different cases, 73 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: but you also give what I tell people is so 74 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: important a balance. You and I had a chance to 75 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: be on the Crime Con Crime Cruise together, where we 76 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 1: were with Paul Holes and CC Moore and Elena Burgh's 77 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: and some just extraordinarily family members that had some significant cases. 78 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: But you gave a balance to that. And when I 79 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,799 Speaker 1: tell people you are fun, y'all, let me tell you something. 80 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: When you walk in when you walk into a bar 81 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: in Mexico and you're sitting at the bar just kind 82 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: of watching people and observing, and then you hear a 83 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: familiar voice and you turn and you see your friend 84 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: and colleague dancing up on a table to YMCA. I 85 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,679 Speaker 1: don't know. It's just one of those moments where you're like, yes, 86 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: that person right there and I that is why we're friends, 87 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: right there people. And I remember we're walking up to 88 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: the table and when you saw me, you're like hey, 89 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: and I was like, can I join you? And you're like, girl, please, yes, 90 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: jump on this chair. So here's the thing. There is 91 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: a needed balance, don't you agree, Lisa. 92 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: I think one hundred percent that a lot of I 93 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: guess participants and or audience members of the true crime industry, 94 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: or even law enforcement in general, need to remember that 95 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, as working individuals tied 96 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: to these cases, and obviously some are more severe than others, 97 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: but we need to have that home life work balance 98 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: and including work, and that it kind of gave me 99 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: an opportunity to go ahead and have that balance. Yes, 100 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 2: we were on a cruise and I was having a 101 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: good time. But you put on some good music and 102 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: you go ahead and you give me a dance floor, 103 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: but in this case it was a chair that we 104 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: were standing on. 105 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: Then go for it. 106 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: But I will clarify that you were responsible and you 107 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 2: did not join me on dancing on the chair. You 108 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: did the YMCA with your feet platted for the ground. 109 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: Yes, lowerd absolutely, but I tell you I wouldn't have 110 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: had any more fun had I been three feet higher 111 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: in the air. It was just a great time. 112 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: It was a fantastic time, And the cruise is such 113 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: a great opportunity to give people that one on one experience. 114 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: That's really what we're there for. And I like the 115 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: fact that we have an opportunity to do a deep 116 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: dive and really get the exposure for on Colton Molly's 117 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: case to the general public in a kind of different venue. 118 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: No question, the audio and video that you received regarding 119 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: Cold and Mollie, tell us your first impressions. Tell us 120 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: what you did with it and what you gleaned from it. 121 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: Okay, So the first thing that I had actually done 122 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: was speak to Robin Cindy on the phone and they 123 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: looped me in. We actually have a lot of a 124 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: couple of friends through the industry on the intertime inside. 125 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: So originally when I first heard from them, I was like, 126 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 2: I don't really know, is this actually reputable or is 127 00:07:57,960 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: this some guy sitting on the phone with a tinfoil 128 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: high trying to give me a life explanation about a case. 129 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: But after going ahead and speaking with them, I just 130 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: knew right away that I had to get involved in 131 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 2: add my contribution as much as possible, because I don't 132 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 2: know if you know this, but next month is actually 133 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: ten years that this case has not been solved. 134 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: Yes, I talked to Paula yesterday. It's just mind boggling. 135 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: It's mind boggling and heartbreaking is not even the word anymore. 136 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: Taking a look at the first actually the first piece 137 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: that I did was the audio recording. Cindy and Rob 138 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: had emailed me an audio clip that Paula had taken. 139 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 2: And in the state of Oklahoma, it's a one party state, 140 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: which means that audio and video recordings you do not 141 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: need the consent of the person that you're recording. So 142 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: Paula took a recorder or her cell phone. I'm not 143 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: sure what device you used, but she physically had it 144 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 2: on her person and she in an interviewed a gentleman, 145 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: and gentleman apparently was there at the time of the incident, 146 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 2: and I referred to it as an incident because we're 147 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: not we can't rule it as a murder. We can't 148 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: rool it as a homicide, we can't classify it as anything, 149 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: because there's so much information that we don't know. So 150 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: I like to just be sensitive to language when it 151 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: comes to certain things. So I'm just going to refer 152 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: to it as the incident. And he was very graphic, 153 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: very descriptive pertaining to the tree, what was done, what 154 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: they were wearing, the location, the time frame, time of day, 155 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: accuracy of even like what time he thought it was. 156 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 2: It was unbelievable just to have who we would call 157 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: in a courtroom the star witness, that would be the ideal. 158 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 2: He's the one that really has the knowledge. And again, 159 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: he was there, so maybe he did not get directly 160 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: involved with the incident, but he's a party to the 161 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: action because he was physically there. I understand why he 162 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 2: doesn't want to go ahead and get himself involved any 163 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 2: further because he is fearful for his life, and that's Rightaly, So, 164 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: considering the individuals that we're dealing with, not just pertaining 165 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 2: to the suspects, but we're talking, as you mentioned earlier, 166 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 2: the corruption going on at the local level as well 167 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: as the state level, with the district attorneys locally in 168 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: addition to law enforcement, DA's for the local county. It's 169 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 2: the epitome of bad blood. It's absolutely horrible. Going ahead 170 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: and taking a look at him with regards to the 171 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: audio tape, I sat down and I wrote out a 172 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: statement analysis of what he was stating and what he 173 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 2: was dictating and the length of time it was but 174 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,319 Speaker 2: in between his words, as well as his choice of 175 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: language objective language versus subjective language, and isolating the emotional component, 176 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: because given the circumstances, even us working this case, if 177 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: we're not emotional and we're not tied to this case, 178 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: then we've been doing our jobs way too long, and 179 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: that that's our time to retire. If a case that 180 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: you're working doesn't make you feel some type of way, 181 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 2: whether it's angry, upset, happy, then we have no business 182 00:10:59,400 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: doing our job. 183 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: I can't agree more. I mean, I say it all 184 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: the time. When it stops being something that I feel 185 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: excited about and my adrenaline starts pumping and I want 186 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: to jump in the middle of it, and I want 187 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: to help somebody, and I want to right or wrong, 188 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: then it's time for me to go, you know, sit 189 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: by the water somewhere it's absolutely true. 190 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same thing with us. I mean, and 191 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: I see it sometimes some of the cases that come 192 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: across my desk, not even just on the polygraph side, 193 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: because I'm also a private investigator where I'll speak to 194 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: some detectives that have just that are there and they're 195 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: in that hole I can't like go stage and I 196 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: can't retire yet, and maybe they've got kids in college. 197 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: Whatever the person circumstances is. That's fine. But I feel 198 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: like sometimes when individuals do retire, you can get that 199 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: new young blood, and the new young blood sometimes may 200 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: have a different perception to the cases because training today 201 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: is not what it was however many years ago. As 202 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 2: you know, there's some individuals that work in certain agencies, 203 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: they just become complacent. They refuse to learn, they refuse 204 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: to get the continuing education, the training courses, so they're 205 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 2: not up to date. So I'm not saying I'm pro retirement, 206 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: but I am very much pro continuing ed and making 207 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: sure that our officers and our colleagues are up to 208 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: date with the standard of practice. 209 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: So let's talk about polygraph questions, because it's always a 210 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: debate in CID what questions should we ask and how 211 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: should it be phrased? 212 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so questions on a polygraph. Really there is a 213 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: maximum of four questions, four relevant questions. Depending upon the 214 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: format that the examiner is using, there could be anywhere 215 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: from a total of eight to ten questions on an 216 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: exam because we have control questions, we have irrelevant questions, 217 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: and we have questions such as referred to as symptomatic relevance, 218 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 2: meaning they're relevant to the situation, but symptomatic I want 219 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 2: to test kind of where your head is at. And 220 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: examples like that are or do you plan to lie 221 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 2: to any question on the test? And then the last 222 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: question would be did you lie to any question on 223 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 2: the test? So there's the relevant questions, meaning they're relevant 224 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: to what the situation is that's being tested. We can 225 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 2: ask a minimum of two or a maximum of four 226 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 2: on the exam. Then you have the irrelevant questions, which 227 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 2: are your baseline questions. Is this the year twenty twenty three? 228 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 2: Is today Friday? Aren't you sitting down right now? Is 229 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: this the month of June? Things like that. So I 230 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: have data from the individual at the time of testing 231 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: that those are known truths and that these are their 232 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: baseline responses. Then we have things that are referred to 233 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: as control or comparison questions. I'm going to ask you 234 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 2: questions similar to the relevant ones, meaning that they're about 235 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: the topic, but they're to go ahead engage probable lies 236 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: or directed lives. So let's say I was testing my boyfriend, 237 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: and I would say, since in a relationship have you 238 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: had sexual physical contact with anyone other than me? And 239 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: of course I would never my boyfriend because he's a saint, 240 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: and I'm going to keep it to that, But listen, 241 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 2: after you, after being thirty six years old in this 242 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 2: line of work and finally being able to lock a 243 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: man down knowing that he didn't go running once he 244 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 2: found out what I did for work, I have to 245 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: say a prayer to Jesus for that one. 246 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: Amen. But yep, So. 247 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: Comparison questions would be like, since in a relationship have 248 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: you flirted with another woman? Since in a relationship have 249 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: you come on to another woman? Since in a relationship 250 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: have you done anything that if she found out about it, 251 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 2: she would leave you? So those are kind of more 252 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: triggering questions, where in that case, if let's say my 253 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: boyfriend didn't cheat on me, he'd be more concerned about 254 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 2: those comparison questions, and those would go ahead and be 255 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: more probable for him to lie to so I can 256 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: see a lie reaction, Whereas if he's guilty, he's not 257 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: going to be worried about those questions. He's going to 258 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: be worried about, Oh, crahaps she's found out. She's going 259 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: to find out that she cheated on me. And the 260 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: same thing works in criminal investigations. I was dealing with 261 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: someone that was being accused of a sexual assault against 262 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: a minor or an adult, whoever the victim is. We 263 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: would ask them questions a relevancy pertaining to what they're 264 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: charged with, and those questions would come from the complaint 265 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: from court from grand jury of what the charges are, 266 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: or it would come from the witness and or complain 267 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: in victim's statement. Those comparison questions would be pertaining to 268 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: his prior actions of has he ever deliberately hurt someone 269 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: under his care in the past, has he ever gone 270 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: ahead and possibly excessively masturbated. Has he gone ahead and 271 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 2: possibly abused other women previously in the past, Just to 272 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: go ahead and show that he doesn't have a repeated 273 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: history of behavior. 274 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: Now your profession has changed a great deal. Like when 275 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: I first started, there was a little thing they put 276 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: around It's like a little bailt almost, that went around 277 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: your chest and then your finger and all these other 278 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: things in the polygrapher just stared at the machine, just 279 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: watched the needle the whole time. Well, the last one 280 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: that I had recently, it was just my eye and 281 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: he watched me the whole time. And I found that 282 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: really interesting. And let me clarify for people listening the 283 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: reason I had to take one recently. When you are 284 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: the crime scene investigator and the evidence custodian, if anything 285 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: goes missing or anything looks different or in and right 286 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: and there's an IA, you automatically are part of that investigation. 287 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: Several of us had to go recently and have a 288 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: polygraph because some evidence went missing. So again it was 289 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: the latest and greatest tool I guess that they sent 290 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: me to and I was just captivated by how this 291 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: was not invasive anyway, It was quick. There were very 292 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: few questions. I think there was maybe only five questions 293 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: and I was done. So I didn't know if you 294 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: have changed your equipment through the years, And like you said, 295 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: added the statement analysis and the body language bit. 296 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 2: So the equipment actually started off with what's referred to 297 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: as the analog instrument, which is that giant gold gold cap, 298 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 2: the suitcase looking thing that would sit on the table 299 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 2: and you would watch the paper roll out on the 300 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 2: to the floor pretty much as long as the chart 301 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 2: was going and it was still measuring the same things. 302 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 2: It was still measuring heart rates, sweatland activity as well 303 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 2: as breathing. Coming up with the times, instrument manufacturers have 304 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 2: now developed the digital program. And what the digital program 305 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 2: is is pretty much the laptop computer which is attached 306 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 2: to a small little box and the boxes all of 307 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: the components plugged into it. So that's where you hear 308 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: the phrase of can you beat the box. The box 309 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 2: now is just a small little it's probably half the 310 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 2: size of a normal tissue box container, and that's the 311 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 2: actual polygraph with all the sensors and then the physical 312 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: chart tracings go into the computer. So what we would 313 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 2: see on the computer now is what used to show 314 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 2: up with the paper rolling out. The analog instrument actually 315 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: is typically now used with TV commercials and props and 316 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: movies because it's more recognizable as a polygraph instrument. That's 317 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: what people see, that's what they hear, that's what they've 318 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: been conditioned to. But now everything is digital. And the 319 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: reason why we've also gone digital is because, over the 320 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 2: evolution of time with regards to technology and science improving, 321 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: we have now found ways and by we, I mean 322 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: not me directly, but I'm talking on behalf of the 323 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: whole industry that we have found other components that we 324 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 2: can use to go ahead and determine deception. And the 325 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: most common one now being used is what's referred to 326 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 2: as the pull sox. I mean, everyone should know what 327 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 2: the pull sox is. We've all been through the pandemic 328 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: and we've even been to doctor's office. It's the thing 329 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: that you put on your finger to check the oxygen 330 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: in your blood. And now that we've learned with regards 331 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 2: to the call for oxygen with physiological responses, the individuals 332 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: oxygen level will decrease when they're lying or sorry, not 333 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: mind being deceptive. So that's another tool that we've incorporated 334 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: into it, in addition to sensors that are built into 335 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 2: our chairs as well as onto the sea, so we 336 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 2: know if an individual is trying to do countermeasures. Because 337 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: the golden rule is you wouldn't try and beat a 338 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: polygraph test if you knew that you were. 339 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: Going to pass. Simply stated, you're not going to pass. 340 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: A polygraph test if you're not going to tell the truth. 341 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: And what I do is I actually take out a 342 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: piece of paper and I start making a tea chart 343 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 2: and I give the analysis of if you get a 344 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 2: hundred on a test in school, what does that mean? 345 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: And typically the smart one goes, oh, I got an 346 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: AI passed And I said, okay, good, what about a polygraph? 347 00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 2: If you get a hundred on a polygraph, what does 348 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: that mean? And they go, oh, well, I passed, they 349 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: said perfect. I said what if you get a ninety 350 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 2: nine on a test in school? And they're like, oh, 351 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 2: I passed, but I'm just one point away. And I go, okay, 352 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: what about a ninety nine on a polygraph? They're like, 353 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: I passed, and I go, you're wrong. Ninety nine on 354 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 2: a polygraph means that you didn't tell me one hundred 355 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 2: percent of the truth. So the smallest little detail can 356 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: trip someone up on a polygraph test, which is why 357 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 2: it's really important that the examiner reviews the questions beforehand 358 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: to make sure that even the choice of language are 359 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 2: the questions that everything is clearly defined. 360 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: And I just want to remind everybody she mentioned her 361 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: relationship earlier. Can you imagine if he's at ninety nine percent? 362 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh this is hard. Yeah, you know what 363 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: I mean. 364 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 2: He's a good eye. I got lucky. And the best 365 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 2: part is. 366 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: Oh, you know, I'm Jesus, No, I know, you know listen, 367 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: but like Mac, you know me. 368 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: So for me to put up with anyone, or for 369 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: anyone to put up with me, we all need to 370 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: say a prayer for each other. 371 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but you're just laughing because listen to your analogy. 372 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, yeah, ninety nine percent, that is all good, 373 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: and you're like, nope. And then when you said that, no, 374 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 1: you're being deceptive about something. So they're that's where now 375 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: this investigation has to go. Is with that one percent? 376 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I mean comparatively that sometimes with women, 377 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 2: depending upon who's sitting in front of me, and I'm like, 378 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: how sensitive I feel that they're being. I'll say, listen, 379 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 2: it's like being you're being pregnant. You're pregnant, You're not 380 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,479 Speaker 2: You're not a little pregnant, You're not a lot of pregnant. 381 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 2: It's what's one or the other. 382 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: You said to me something a while back, you said, well, 383 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: I don't even need the person to be there with me. 384 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: It can even be somebody that's on TV. Would you 385 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: please get into that for me and explain to people 386 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. 387 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 2: Of course, So typically the polygraph examination obviously requires the 388 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: individual to be in front of me, present at one 389 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: of my locations, or I can go to their offices, 390 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,919 Speaker 2: and that way we can attach the components pertaining to 391 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: spec land activity, respiratory activity, and blood pressure activity. And 392 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 2: what I've been trained in is to go ahead and 393 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 2: analyze deception through verbal speech patterns as well as body language, 394 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: in addition to even handwritten notes. So an individual can 395 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 2: go ahead and give me a statement pertaining to their 396 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 2: impression of what the crime was and or their side 397 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: of the story, and I can analyze it and go 398 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: ahead and determine are their signs of deception even in handwriting. 399 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: Okay, I think everybody's minds should be blown because again 400 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: people think I've got to be hooked up to this 401 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: machine for them to be able to get any type 402 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,239 Speaker 1: of reading. It's not true. So if somebody had a 403 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: case where they could give you a nine one one 404 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 1: call and a whole movie and a police interview. You 405 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: could take those three things and analyze them and show 406 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: where the person's speech pattern changed, their body language changed, 407 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: and what that may or may not mean from the 408 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: questions that are beging to asked and the environment that 409 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: they're in. 410 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 2: True, Yeah, True. I can go ahead and take a 411 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: look at a police interrogation video of the interview being done, 412 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: and I can go ahead and analyze the speech verbal 413 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: change of language in addition to hesitancy and latency and responses. 414 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:06,479 Speaker 2: Even going ahead and taking a look and zooming in 415 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: at the pupils and with regards to rapid eye movement 416 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: and what direction the eyes are going, whether to the 417 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 2: left or the right, I can go ahead and determine 418 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: change of pronouns in language. Sometimes, for instance, using cases 419 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 2: involving miners, but specifically babies or infants, the parent and 420 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 2: or a person being interviewed sometimes can refer to as 421 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 2: my daughter, my daughter, my daughter, or my son, my son, 422 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: my son, and then once they go ahead and transition 423 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: and refer to the baby. An example of that is 424 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: them going ahead and isolating themselves from the child and 425 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: the crime and just referring to them as the baby 426 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: once they become deceased. 427 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: And when I went through statement analysis training, our instructor 428 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: said over and over and over, a change of pronouns 429 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: means a change in reality. 430 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 431 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: How many polygraphs have you done? 432 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: Oh? God, you know what? I guess this question asked 433 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 2: a lot, And to be honest, I've never kept track. 434 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: Well, I will tell you I get asked the same thing, 435 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: how many cases have you worked on? I have no idea, 436 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: And it always amazes me when somebody can give an 437 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: exact number, because if you look at cases that I've worked, 438 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: been an expert own, or that I've just reviewed for 439 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: either TV, newspaper or magazine, I couldn't even begin to give. 440 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 2: You a number exactly. And I think for sometimes with 441 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 2: those people that they're able to shoot out a number 442 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: right away. Obviously, we know that there's a plus or 443 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 2: minus field for how many cases you've worked you can't estimate. 444 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: But I feel like that there are some people that 445 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: just thrive on that number, where it becomes kind of 446 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: like part of their disposition and who they are and 447 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: what they're about. I can't live like that. I'm not 448 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 2: here as an examiner to live by a number. I'm 449 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 2: here to go ahead and give closure to individuals that 450 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: need it. 451 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: I tell people all the time when I teach junior folks, 452 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: I can throw a party. But if I all of 453 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: a sudden get my sister involved, who can cook, And 454 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: I've got my sister involved, who's got music, And I've 455 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 1: got another sister that's got extra tables and chairs. Now 456 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: we're getting somewhere. Yeah, Well, then I've got another sister 457 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: that's going to bring us a set of her friends 458 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: that well, I mean, they're a party by themselves, so 459 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: they're going to put mine at the next level. And 460 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: then I'm going to invite folks like you. Well, now 461 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about an epic event, whereas if I had 462 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: just done it by myself, it's very different. So if 463 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: you've got five different agencies and they can all put 464 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: some money in, they can all put some resources in, 465 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: they can all put some extraordinarily talented investigators in. Now 466 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: we're going to get somewhere. 467 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: Look at the work that we did in Indiana. Look 468 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 2: at the about of resources that with regards to Abby 469 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: and Libby's case from the time and the effort that 470 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 2: so many outside experts have done. I mean, I went 471 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: out to India at a state police because I went 472 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 2: to lecture to their polygraph examiners. They needed their continuing education, 473 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: so they reached out to me about coming out there. 474 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 2: So I spent about two or three days out there 475 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 2: with their officers, and I spoke with a couple of 476 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: people about the case and just to hear that the 477 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: resources that were going on and even some of their examiners. 478 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: I had been getting phone calls and text messages with 479 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 2: of Oh, we think we have a suspect, or we 480 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 2: think we have this, or we're going to be running 481 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: this type of exam. What are your thoughts and what 482 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: are your opinions? For me to even be able to 483 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: contribute that capacity, I felt grateful that they recognized me 484 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 2: as a source, because again, I'm a civilian. I've never 485 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 2: been to a police academy. The only government training that 486 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: I've ever had was going to an American Polygraph Association conference, 487 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 2: which I sit on the board of directors now for. 488 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 2: And I've attended seminars by instructors from the Secret Service 489 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: or NSA or the FBI, but I have no formal, 490 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 2: specific federal training. Everything that I've done and acquired has 491 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: been through my own learning. And again, as my father 492 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: is my mentor, I got very blessed to start off 493 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,880 Speaker 2: in the family business early on. But I just think 494 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 2: that everyone should understand that just because he is my mentor, 495 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: and just because I started off young, I boss did 496 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 2: my you know what to get everything that I've got. 497 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 2: It definitely wasn't handed to. 498 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:15,640 Speaker 1: Me one hundred percent. 499 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: And you and I, actually you and I had a 500 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: conversation about that, because Caroline's going to be applied to 501 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: schools and jobs and things like that also. 502 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 1: Right correct. And my son Hug is working now as 503 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: an investigator with the Public Defender's Office. And I can 504 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: tell you people will say to me, oh, well, of 505 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: course that's what they're doing. Let me tell y'all something 506 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,680 Speaker 1: in some regard it works against them. Yeah, oh yeah, 507 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, And I know you know. And the thing is, 508 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: they both have their own skill sets that they come 509 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: with because some of the gifts that Hug and Caroline 510 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: have you can't train. They both have horse sense, they 511 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: both have common sense, they both have compassion. You can't 512 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: teach those things. They either have it or they don't. 513 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: So you know, when huck first came to me and 514 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: he was like, Hey, I think I'm going to take 515 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: this job. I'm really excited about it. With the Public 516 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 1: Defender's Office. Well, a lot of people will joke and say, well, 517 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: you know, you must be real disappointed. Are you kidding me? 518 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 2: Oh? 519 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: No, that child is going to work twice as hard 520 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 1: for the best reason. Nobody, no investigator in the world 521 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: wants somebody innocent to go to prison, not a good one. 522 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, that would be something that would just eat 523 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: it you if you found out that this person's been 524 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: exonerated and you had a hand in putting them in prison, 525 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: what did you miss? I mean, that would be something 526 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: that's a nightmare. 527 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 2: I would never sleep a day in my life. I 528 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: was actually supposed to be in London today over at 529 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 2: Crime gon UK and I canceled that trip because I 530 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: had gotten that phone call from the Federal Defender's Office 531 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 2: about there about the client on death row. And I 532 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 2: said to myself, I was like, you know what, if 533 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: I have an opportunity to make sure that a man 534 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: doesn't lose his life or something that he did not 535 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: did do not to you, I can't even speak now. 536 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: If he's going to lose his life for something that 537 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: he didn't do. I mean, I just need losing my 538 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: words because I'm so angry about this case and I'm 539 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,239 Speaker 2: so passionate. But just to make sure that I can 540 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 2: play the role and make you sure that he does 541 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 2: not lose his life over something that he didn't do, 542 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: is I had to jump at it. 543 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: But see, I think that's the perfect thing because you 544 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: work both sides. On the one hand, you do not 545 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: want an innocent person to go to prison, and you're 546 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: going to use all of your expertise to make sure 547 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen. On the other side, you know there's 548 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: a killer walking around Oklahoma and you're not okay with that, 549 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: and you're going to use all your expertise to make 550 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: sure that doesn't continue to happen. So I think when 551 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: people talk to me or you or any of the 552 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: folks in our Zone seven, that's how we operate. Nobody 553 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: wants injustice, None of us that are in my world, 554 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 1: you know, want that to happen. Are there bad eggs 555 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: like in the case of Molly and Colt, where the 556 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: sheriff did end up getting indicted and was found guilty. 557 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: Of everything under the sun. 558 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: Doing a couple of things. I mean, that does happen, 559 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: But I'm telling you, in the scheme of things, when 560 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about over seven hundred thousand law enforcement personnel, 561 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: he ain't even one percent. I promise you he's not. 562 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: And when we find those people, we go after them 563 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: with just as much vigor. 564 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 2: We have seen throughout our careers the abuse that takes 565 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 2: place pertaining to being in law enforcement and having the badge, 566 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, we are both 567 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: in our careers for the idea of closure, of giving 568 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 2: people the answers they need pertaining to what happens in 569 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: a situation, and obviously me testing someone for a polygraph 570 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: test and whether or not they're significant other cheated versus 571 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: the work that you're doing with regards to crime scenes 572 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: and going ahead and developing what you need to to 573 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: support the case file so the families can have the 574 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: I guess closure that they need. But closure comes in 575 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 2: different capacities, whether it's positive or negative. We're giving the 576 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: answers to them that they need, and it's up to 577 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 2: them how they want to take the information that we've 578 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: acquired and work with. 579 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: Last thing I want you to address, is it because 580 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: we get it a lot. When we start offering people 581 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: a polygraph, they'll say, well, that's not even admissible in court. 582 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: They love to say that, oh it's number one thing, 583 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: But will you address a little bit the polygraph as 584 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: an investigative tool. 585 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,719 Speaker 2: What happens is is that in criminal cases is it 586 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 2: allows me to go ahead and take a look at 587 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: who's the suspect and who's not. I want to clear people. 588 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 2: The polygraph isn't there to catch anyone. It's really there 589 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: to clear the innocent. And I think that's a big 590 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 2: misconception that oh, it's just there to trap everyone and 591 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: it's there to go ahead and show that they did 592 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: this or they did that. No, I want to clear 593 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: the innocent. I want to show that you did not 594 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: do what you're being accused of. So polygraphs have become 595 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 2: a way to use as an investigative tool, which in 596 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: law enforcement capabilities, the polygraph can be administered and it 597 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 2: will a clear the innocent b it will go ahead 598 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 2: and also test suspects. And one of the coolest thing 599 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 2: that I like about polygraph exams is something called a 600 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 2: peak of tension test, where if I have a suspect 601 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 2: in front of me, and I think that they could 602 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: possibly be tied to the being the person that committed 603 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: whatever crime it is. And let's say it's a murderer, 604 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 2: I can ask them was the murder weapon a gun, 605 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: a knife, a scissor, or any other types of baseball bat? 606 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: And what will happen is is that if they hit 607 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: on the specific murder weapon that we already know as 608 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: law enforcement is the actual weapon, that's a way that 609 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: we're able to go ahead and build a case against 610 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: the suspect because you wouldn't know what the murder weapon 611 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: is if you didn't commit the crime. So there's different 612 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: techniques and different types of polygraph tests that we can 613 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 2: run to go ahead and rule out the innocent as 614 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: well as convict the guilty. But going back to your 615 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,239 Speaker 2: question about admissibility, polygraph tests in the United States are 616 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: admissible in one state, and that state is New Mexico. 617 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: There is admissibility in all federal venues, including immigration court, 618 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: which has now become a big thing pertaining to the 619 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: asylum as well as the border control issues, which is 620 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 2: a separate story. But with regards to admissibility by stipulation, 621 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: it's allowed with regards to both the defendant and the plaintiff, 622 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 2: whether it's a civil matter or a criminal matter, for 623 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: both individuals, as well as the courts to stipulate what 624 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: exactly will be admissible and what will not. And I 625 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 2: would say that takes place in about fifteen to twenty states, 626 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: but otherwise in the rest to the country it's not admissible. 627 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: I can speak to New York, which is predominantly where 628 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 2: my practice is based out of where on the criminal side, 629 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 2: it's allowed on pre conviction and post conviction of if 630 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: an individual is gone ahead and under investigation for let's 631 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: say bank robbery, but they didn't actually shoot the guard 632 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 2: during the robbery, they only drove the getaway car, so 633 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 2: they can take a pre conviction polygraph test pertaining to 634 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 2: their narrative of the bank robbery, so they can get 635 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 2: a reduced sentence versus I didn't actually kill the guard. 636 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 2: The other side of it is post conviction, which is 637 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: the innocent project work that we've talked about previously during 638 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 2: our chat here, which I'm absolutely loving, by the way, 639 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 2: where the innocent individuals are wrongfully convicted and they can 640 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 2: go ahead and file wh's referred to as a four 641 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 2: to forty motion to vacate their conviction and they'll take 642 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 2: a polygraph test to go ahead and show that they 643 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: didn't do this, And it does work with a guard 644 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 2: post conviction. There was an individual that had served twenty 645 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 2: seven years in a Buffalo facility in New York. He 646 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 2: took a polygraph test with our office. He was released 647 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: within forty eight hours after doing twenty seven years. 648 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: Wow, Mercy, Yeah, could you imagine? 649 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: No? 650 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: I mean I can't, And that's what I'm telling you. 651 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: Those stories are just gut wrenching. But that's again why 652 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: I wanted people to hear from you today, and that's 653 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: why when I started by saying she is as smart 654 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: as she is fun, it's the truth. So with Colt 655 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: and Molly, what do you think could be done now 656 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: using your techniques that have not been done. 657 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: From the conversations that you and I have had offline 658 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 2: pertaining to this, I mean, there's deception just flying past 659 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 2: their heads and hit in the. 660 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: Wall from almost everybody involved, from the sheriff to the 661 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,959 Speaker 1: friend driving, to neighbors to I mean, you just don't 662 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: even know who or what to believe because so much 663 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,959 Speaker 1: of it is unbelievable. 664 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 2: I really truly think that this case needs a fresh 665 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: set of eyes, not only from OBSI, but also top 666 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 2: to bottom, like whoever has had their hands or even 667 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: a finger on this case needs to just be removed. 668 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: And you do need a whole new team, because again, 669 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: advancements and technology are different possibilities. I mean, look at 670 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 2: what's going on in the media now, how cases are 671 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 2: being made with DNA. How much DNA testing was previously done. 672 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: We don't know. We don't even know if what we've 673 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 2: seen in a case file is even accurate, because there's 674 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 2: so much corruption from the agency that there could be 675 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: pieces of evidence that are not even inventoried, evidence that 676 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 2: wasn't even properly collected, chain of custody wasn't done effectively, 677 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: So it's put god only knows aware in what box. 678 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 2: So I think that as a whole, the agency needs 679 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 2: to be welcoming of outside vendors and or subcontractors to 680 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 2: come in and really assist their investigation. I think that 681 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: because it is a smaller agency, because it is a 682 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 2: smaller county, they also don't have the resources. And if 683 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 2: you don't have the resources, you need to put your 684 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 2: pride aside. Again. Next month, we're coming up on ten 685 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 2: years of no answers, ten years of disappropriation of government funding, 686 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 2: not putting put towards this case, ten years of judicial 687 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 2: and what legal malpractice is what I like to call it. 688 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 2: So something's got to get done because there's no reason 689 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: that this should be in the situation that it is. Well. 690 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: I have been advocating that this case needs to be 691 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Oh yeah, BIA needs 692 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,240 Speaker 1: to take this case over period. 693 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 2: But the issue is obs I won't do it because 694 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 2: if it's an ego and pride. 695 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: Thing, we will see because ego and pride has no place. 696 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: It has no place, no, not an ecomal investigation. I mean, 697 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: it's got to be teamwork. You've got to just everybody 698 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: that's got a tool and an expertise and a valid idea. 699 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: They need to all come together. I appreciate you being here, 700 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: and you will be back. There's no doubt we have 701 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 1: other cases we need to talk about together. But I 702 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: just wanted people to hear from you. Hear all the 703 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: different sides of a polygraph, all the different ways it 704 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 1: can be used as an investigative tool to put people 705 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: in prison and to get people out, And to me, 706 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: that's the whole gig. Right there, y'all. I'm going to 707 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: end Zone seven the way that I always do with 708 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: a quote, but tonight it ain't from somebody that was 709 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: in my Zone seven. It's just a quote that I 710 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: thought was particularly applicable. Listen. I don't know anything about polygraphs, 711 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: and I don't know how accurate they are, but I 712 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: know they'll scare the hell out of people. Richard M. Nixon, 713 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven. 714 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 2: Listen. Name