WEBVTT - Ron Carter/Don Was 0:00:15.516 --> 0:00:22.956 Pushkin, We're continuing our celebration of Blue Note Records eighty 0:00:22.996 --> 0:00:27.956 fifth anniversary with a conversation with a certified living legend, 0:00:28.396 --> 0:00:31.756 Ron Carter. For starters, he was a key member of 0:00:31.796 --> 0:00:34.076 a group that's on the shortlist for the Greatest band 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:37.076 of all time. That's the second Great Miles Davis Quintet, 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:42.156 featuring Ron Carter himself, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams, 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:46.316 and naturally Miles Davis. And although many conversations with Ron 0:00:46.356 --> 0:00:48.556 Carter start and end with that period of his life 0:00:48.596 --> 0:00:51.676 from nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty eight, at eighty 0:00:51.716 --> 0:00:54.796 seven years of age and as a lifelong seeker, there's 0:00:54.876 --> 0:00:57.316 a lot more to the Ron Carter story, and I'm 0:00:57.316 --> 0:00:59.516 happy to say we got an interesting little slice of 0:00:59.516 --> 0:01:02.636 it for you today. When Don was and I sat 0:01:02.716 --> 0:01:04.076 up on the stage at the Blue Note Club in 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:06.756 NYC with Ron Carter, we wanted to know a little 0:01:06.756 --> 0:01:10.196 more about his life growing up in Detroit, class aspirations. 0:01:11.116 --> 0:01:14.356 In response to those questions, Mastro Carter delivered an emotional, 0:01:14.396 --> 0:01:18.236 stream of consciousness response that resonated deeply with both Don 0:01:18.276 --> 0:01:21.436 and I. My hopes that it will move you as well. 0:01:22.156 --> 0:01:24.436 And since we're celebrating the eighty fifth anniversary of Blue 0:01:24.436 --> 0:01:27.916 Note Records, ron Carter also gives some fascinating insight into 0:01:27.956 --> 0:01:34.036 a few key people from the label's esteemed history. This 0:01:34.236 --> 0:01:37.116 is Broken Record Liner Notes for the digital age. 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:38.196 I'm justin Mitchman. 0:01:38.756 --> 0:01:40.756 Here's Don Was and myself from the Blue Note in 0:01:40.836 --> 0:01:44.076 New York City with Mastro Ron Carter. To see the 0:01:44.116 --> 0:01:46.556 full video version of this episode, go to YouTube dot 0:01:46.596 --> 0:01:48.796 com slash Broken Record Podcast. 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:52.316 When I first got the job at Blue Note, I 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:55.036 went to the archives, did a little research, and there's 0:01:55.076 --> 0:02:00.356 an insanely inordinate number of musicians who come from Detroit, 0:02:00.836 --> 0:02:03.436 like not even a close second in terms of cities. 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:06.236 What do you think it is about Detroit? 0:02:09.236 --> 0:02:13.636 You know, I think when the when the people from 0:02:13.636 --> 0:02:18.756 the South went up north that migration. I just think 0:02:18.876 --> 0:02:24.636 that that the enthusiasm of being free and the chances 0:02:24.716 --> 0:02:29.876 of being productive and being free went to where the 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:33.636 industrial states were. They had those kind of options, and 0:02:33.756 --> 0:02:37.876 Detroit has always been a manufacturing city cars right now, 0:02:38.836 --> 0:02:42.356 and then Henry Ford made the unfortunes with the assembly 0:02:42.396 --> 0:02:47.396 line in Detroit. And my general view is that the 0:02:47.476 --> 0:02:51.156 people who were of that mindset They all came to 0:02:51.236 --> 0:02:54.996 places where he could find the work. You know, the 0:02:55.836 --> 0:02:59.716 musicians went to Philadelphia, person that East Builders and uh 0:02:59.916 --> 0:03:04.356 Pittsburgh Ahmed. But somehow Detroit was the biggest manufacturing city 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:10.236 that had the most options. As a non his struggle guests, 0:03:10.676 --> 0:03:11.036 you know. 0:03:11.756 --> 0:03:16.596 Right, you chose to be a classical cellist originally represent 0:03:16.756 --> 0:03:23.116 your ambition and you changed. What were the circumstances that 0:03:23.116 --> 0:03:26.036 that caused you to change over to playing bass? From Chello. 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.036 The start of the story is I was going to 0:03:29.156 --> 0:03:33.236 all black junior elementary school and this person came in 0:03:33.236 --> 0:03:35.596 with it. Came into a room where they had these 0:03:35.996 --> 0:03:38.636 things front on the table, you know, like ten to 0:03:38.676 --> 0:03:42.236 ten eleven twelve year old kids. She says she's going 0:03:42.276 --> 0:03:47.516 to start the orchestra at this school, and children, these 0:03:47.516 --> 0:03:50.116 are the instruments that we're going to play. I walk 0:03:50.156 --> 0:03:52.316 around and pick one that you think appeals to you 0:03:52.956 --> 0:03:54.516 at the best sound you can get out of there, 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:57.556 whatever it sounds like, and we'll make some music together. 0:03:59.036 --> 0:04:03.196 And somehow the cello caught my attention. It was it 0:04:03.236 --> 0:04:08.236 was aluminum, you know, And so as I got better 0:04:08.316 --> 0:04:10.956 the teacher's record and I said, I was looking past 0:04:10.996 --> 0:04:15.876 their teaching level. Ultimately, I was considered a really giant 0:04:15.916 --> 0:04:22.116 talent for an African American fourteen year old. And so 0:04:22.196 --> 0:04:26.316 one day I looked around. My dad said, son, if 0:04:26.356 --> 0:04:29.036 you want to be in this game, you got you 0:04:29.036 --> 0:04:32.756 gotta be better than everybody else who's in the game. Okay. 0:04:33.796 --> 0:04:36.156 Having said that, I thought that I was upholding that 0:04:36.356 --> 0:04:40.596 general family motto, you know. So I looked around one 0:04:40.636 --> 0:04:42.916 day in the base player was graduating this. I'm a 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:45.716 senior in high school. A senior had done met there 0:04:45.716 --> 0:04:50.796 would be nineteen fifty three fifty four spring, you know. 0:04:51.756 --> 0:04:53.756 And I was always good at math. My father was 0:04:53.796 --> 0:04:57.156 a genius, but I could subtract pretty good. So I'm 0:04:57.196 --> 0:05:00.956 looking around and said, if he's only one guy there 0:05:01.036 --> 0:05:03.516 and don't need a base player not as a zero, 0:05:04.196 --> 0:05:07.996 I don't want to be that guy. So prince my 0:05:08.036 --> 0:05:09.876 parents that do is a good way me to get better, 0:05:10.156 --> 0:05:12.436 you know, and get get get get the work out, 0:05:12.476 --> 0:05:17.036 looking for get the exposure, get the experience. Because I 0:05:17.116 --> 0:05:20.636 was the only guy playing this, you know. So they they 0:05:21.716 --> 0:05:25.036 sold my cello and the borrower money for a base 0:05:25.156 --> 0:05:29.676 and got some lessons, you know, and uh, the Eastman 0:05:29.836 --> 0:05:32.396 was having auditions throughout the country Eastern School of Music. 0:05:33.836 --> 0:05:37.036 So I got some books, got a teacher and figured 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:40.396 out what the library was, and audition and I got 0:05:40.396 --> 0:05:44.636 a full scotship for four years. I'm not a bass 0:05:44.636 --> 0:05:49.356 player at Aceland, you know. And uh, while I knew 0:05:49.356 --> 0:05:52.036 of jazz, because we all knew about the jazz and 0:05:52.476 --> 0:05:54.156 blues and stuff like that, I never gave it a 0:05:54.236 --> 0:05:58.196 thought of being a player on that level. I was 0:05:58.236 --> 0:06:02.476 gonna be a cello solo man. Now I was gonna 0:06:02.476 --> 0:06:04.876 be an orchestral bass player. I almost gay with that 0:06:04.916 --> 0:06:08.716 because I got the same notes basically, you know, different attitude, 0:06:08.796 --> 0:06:10.196 but I could do. 0:06:10.116 --> 0:06:12.436 That, you know. Uh. 0:06:13.116 --> 0:06:15.316 And as I got better at Eastman cause it was 0:06:15.316 --> 0:06:19.596 a very competitive investment environment, you know that they were like, uh, 0:06:19.716 --> 0:06:23.316 six or seven African Americans and a student bid them 0:06:23.356 --> 0:06:27.596 maybe six or seven hundred kids and then about ten 0:06:27.636 --> 0:06:33.436 basse players, yeah, bass player of students, you know. Uh. 0:06:33.556 --> 0:06:35.836 And again I'm st I ask cause him was a teacher, 0:06:36.716 --> 0:06:39.396 and he's Tim's coming on how I was improving and 0:06:39.396 --> 0:06:42.396 how I was really understanding the music, the music and 0:06:42.636 --> 0:06:45.236 around me, you know, how to playing on an orchestra. 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:49.276 Just those kind of details that good teachers show students 0:06:49.356 --> 0:06:54.036 who they think are capable of handling another level of performance. 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:55.756 You know. 0:06:58.876 --> 0:07:00.676 So I'm getting better. You know, I'm still working on 0:07:01.036 --> 0:07:04.276 my father's mental You wanna you wanna play the game, 0:07:04.316 --> 0:07:09.676 you gotta have a better hand, so to speak, you know. Uh, So, 0:07:09.876 --> 0:07:12.356 I mean I'm getting orchestra. I'm done this. I'm getting 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:15.116 all these gigs. I go home for the summer because 0:07:15.156 --> 0:07:17.356 I have no money to stay in town s. School 0:07:17.436 --> 0:07:20.756 is over, the dorm too is closing, you know. So 0:07:20.796 --> 0:07:23.316 I get my car drive back to Detroit, and my neighbor, 0:07:23.956 --> 0:07:26.436 who was a saxophone player, said, hey, hey, Ron, I'm 0:07:26.476 --> 0:07:29.876 the I'm putting together a little band to play for 0:07:29.916 --> 0:07:35.516 the Dwayne State University parties for sororities maternities. But we 0:07:35.556 --> 0:07:37.316 need a bass plick, and you do that. I said, well, 0:07:37.316 --> 0:07:40.156 I don't read a little library, and I understand that's 0:07:40.276 --> 0:07:42.796 different music. But if you can give me some records 0:07:42.876 --> 0:07:44.956 or something we listened to in the library, I'll see 0:07:45.516 --> 0:07:47.316 how much I can learn in the time I'll be 0:07:47.356 --> 0:07:52.036 home for this three months off of school. And at 0:07:52.036 --> 0:07:54.876 the time, Dave Blue Brick was really hot. But jazz 0:07:54.916 --> 0:07:58.116 goes to college. That record you know with uh so, 0:07:58.116 --> 0:08:00.516 I said, well, I learned some of these songs cause 0:08:00.556 --> 0:08:03.076 I'm starting to sing like Chet Baker. I said, Chet Baker, 0:08:03.316 --> 0:08:06.116 you know, he's a singing trip. Okay, whatever. 0:08:06.956 --> 0:08:07.156 I know. 0:08:07.236 --> 0:08:10.996 The piano player love Bud Powell. And back in the 0:08:11.076 --> 0:08:14.636 day there was jazz on TV Detroit and that they 0:08:14.636 --> 0:08:18.116 still have the show from Rouge Lounge, which is about 0:08:18.676 --> 0:08:23.436 our drive outside Detroit Northeast and the host of Swoopy Sales, 0:08:23.476 --> 0:08:27.316 the comedian yeah you know. And one day here on 0:08:27.356 --> 0:08:32.436 this show the Max Roads Quartet with uh Max, George Morrow. 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:36.196 You know, I think maybe a Bubb's on the band 0:08:36.956 --> 0:08:39.156 and maybe Heroldlin. I can't remember this so far back, 0:08:39.996 --> 0:08:42.276 but he he was, he was. They had the twenty 0:08:42.276 --> 0:08:45.636 minutes of songs with Bud Powell and Max I said, said, 0:08:45.676 --> 0:08:49.796 rock this is it. Yeah, I said, okay, I'm still 0:08:49.836 --> 0:08:52.676 playing Bark and Beethoven Brahms, cause that's what I'm That's 0:08:52.676 --> 0:08:54.796 what I'm aiming for. But look out for the summer. 0:08:55.676 --> 0:08:58.156 The scholarship didn't cover all my expenses and I need 0:08:58.156 --> 0:08:59.676 to have some money so I could back to school 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:02.876 cause my parents weren't able to take care of the 0:09:02.916 --> 0:09:05.116 remaining kids. There were like five left that at home 0:09:05.156 --> 0:09:08.596 when I left for Scolet, so I'm responsible helping him 0:09:08.596 --> 0:09:10.356 to cover and stuff. So okay, I can do that. 0:09:12.156 --> 0:09:14.196 As I'm getting better. I get back to Rochester for 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:19.396 this my junior my sophomore year, and uh there's a 0:09:19.436 --> 0:09:24.236 local club. Local clubs have some music, the black clubs, 0:09:24.756 --> 0:09:27.596 you know, thirty into all night sessions till four or 0:09:27.596 --> 0:09:29.436 five o'clock in the morning, and I got eight o'clock 0:09:29.476 --> 0:09:33.476 thiry class man, Come on, it's Carter. Hello. You know. 0:09:33.916 --> 0:09:36.356 I'm into that kind of zone, you know, but I 0:09:36.396 --> 0:09:37.956 need the money, so I try to figure it out. 0:09:38.036 --> 0:09:41.356 You know, I've got some books, I got the library. Uh. 0:09:42.036 --> 0:09:44.876 I was able to do the jam sessions at the night, 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:47.996 from the two mid night the three in the morning, 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:51.596 you know, but I got better at it, you know, 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:53.916 by still in an orchestra, I'm still trying to get 0:09:53.956 --> 0:10:00.716 this orchestral orchestral accomplishment that I'm aiming to do. 0:10:01.316 --> 0:10:01.516 You know. 0:10:01.636 --> 0:10:05.316 Jazz was something that helped me stand school by strings 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:10.836 for the instruments, stuff details, you know, a and uh 0:10:11.276 --> 0:10:13.436 I I noticed the bulletin board. They would have jobs 0:10:13.476 --> 0:10:17.676 for orchestras, auditions, stuff like that, you know. And uh, 0:10:17.996 --> 0:10:22.156 while I saw that, I was still not seeing it 0:10:24.116 --> 0:10:28.516 and that those auditions were kind of general, but I 0:10:28.596 --> 0:10:33.396 wasn't feeling any schooled encouragement to check that out, you know. 0:10:33.556 --> 0:10:36.796 And and it didn't stop me on my tracks as 0:10:36.836 --> 0:10:40.436 to why I weren't they encouraging me to check it out. 0:10:40.796 --> 0:10:42.956 I just said, look, I'm trying to I'm trying to 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:46.556 get a degree here, but I'm I'm got a minor 0:10:46.596 --> 0:10:49.476 and I got a major in this, got these classes. 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:53.996 I'm in a very competitive environment. All these kids think 0:10:54.036 --> 0:10:56.316 they're the best there is and they'd work until that end. 0:10:56.356 --> 0:10:59.676 They got practice time. I mean, it's just other factors 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:03.516 in my life, right, you know. Uh, I had really 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:05.796 learned how socialize with white people, cause I'm I'm all 0:11:05.876 --> 0:11:08.836 black community. I'm growing up in that environment, you know. 0:11:09.196 --> 0:11:11.596 M Uh, I had a scholarship, but I meant I 0:11:11.636 --> 0:11:13.116 had to work in the kitchen to wash the dishes 0:11:13.156 --> 0:11:16.396 during the meals, you know. So I met some nice 0:11:16.436 --> 0:11:19.116 guys who were in the same general boat who had 0:11:19.116 --> 0:11:21.876 a lot more money, but they were real nice guys. 0:11:21.876 --> 0:11:24.596 So to this day, I still contact those guys cause 0:11:24.596 --> 0:11:27.116 they're still my friends, you know. So I was getting 0:11:27.156 --> 0:11:29.116 out to learn how to learned how to socialize with 0:11:29.196 --> 0:11:32.956 a uh, a non complete black environment. So I was 0:11:32.996 --> 0:11:36.476 growing up too at the same time. You know. A 0:11:36.476 --> 0:11:42.196 footnote to this story down is that uh Eastman School 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:45.596 in musical separate from University of Rochester physically. It was 0:11:45.636 --> 0:11:48.476 like a s four mile distance in campuses, you know. 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:51.436 And so when the freshman met at the Eastman, the 0:11:51.476 --> 0:11:53.396 guys from the River campus they called it, came to 0:11:53.436 --> 0:11:58.236 the school the s you know, socialized, you know, and uh, 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:00.356 a couple of size, couple of guys thought that all 0:12:00.476 --> 0:12:02.116 musicians were at the time. 0:12:02.156 --> 0:12:03.036 The work was fruits. 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:05.596 You know, it was not a very nice word, you know, 0:12:06.516 --> 0:12:09.636 A and uh us on Detroit and that put there 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:14.116 with that hardhead and you know, the badass on my jacket, 0:12:14.156 --> 0:12:17.276 that kind of stuff, you know. I said, I said, 0:12:17.316 --> 0:12:19.116 so I have not about I just made a couple 0:12:19.116 --> 0:12:21.316 acquaintance and said, man, those guys can't talk to like that. 0:12:21.436 --> 0:12:23.676 I mean, I'm not sure, but I don't know about 0:12:23.716 --> 0:12:25.996 you guys, but I'm not I'm not buying that kind 0:12:26.036 --> 0:12:28.956 of description of me, you know, said well, well, gee, 0:12:28.956 --> 0:12:31.116 what do you want to do? I said, well, I 0:12:31.556 --> 0:12:33.396 was play a decent basketball player. I want to try 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:36.716 to make the team, said man, but you got practice that. Yeah, 0:12:36.716 --> 0:12:40.596 I know that, I know that very well. Well let's 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:43.436 see what happens. So the two of us got unerved together. 0:12:43.556 --> 0:12:45.836 You know, we would bicycles two and a half miles 0:12:45.836 --> 0:12:47.436 out of the campus and all that kind of stuff. 0:12:47.436 --> 0:12:49.956 And then we had the couple of practices and the 0:12:50.036 --> 0:12:55.036 guy got the squad down to whatever twelve people, and uh, 0:12:55.316 --> 0:12:57.916 I made the squad. So I was playing. I was 0:12:57.956 --> 0:13:01.076 on the Trusturant squad basketball team. I got made in 0:13:01.116 --> 0:13:03.156 about three games by two points. But it was okay. 0:13:03.436 --> 0:13:07.596 The point, well say, I made the squad, you know, 0:13:08.156 --> 0:13:10.356 but it was seemed clear me that I couldn't do 0:13:10.436 --> 0:13:13.196 both and being I couldn't be a good basketball player, 0:13:14.076 --> 0:13:15.996 and my goal to be it was to be a 0:13:15.996 --> 0:13:19.916 good player. I couldn't do both. So I acknowledged that. 0:13:20.196 --> 0:13:23.196 I told these guys, okay, this is one guy who 0:13:23.276 --> 0:13:23.676 did that. 0:13:23.756 --> 0:13:24.036 You know. 0:13:25.436 --> 0:13:30.116 In the meantime, I'm noticing the bolleting board mentions about 0:13:30.156 --> 0:13:33.716 the auditions for the violence section. They the third violin player, earlyer, 0:13:33.716 --> 0:13:37.316 thesistant concert master, and they need a bass player at somewhere. 0:13:37.476 --> 0:13:40.196 So I noticed these sayings, you know, and uh, I'm 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:45.716 not feeling any encouragement. And I'm not feeling any overt encouragement. 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:51.676 The one said, hey man, check this out. Try how 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:54.036 that feeling. I didn't get that. I wasn't feeling that 0:13:54.236 --> 0:13:57.716 you and any event. One of the processes at the 0:13:57.756 --> 0:14:04.156 time now was that every every every orchestral sequent of 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:07.796 Rochester Philharmonic they would need some spaces field. So they 0:14:07.836 --> 0:14:11.756 called students in the school who could cover the libor 0:14:12.276 --> 0:14:15.356 who deserved the right, who who earned the right to 0:14:15.396 --> 0:14:17.836 be a part of the Rochester Philharmonic as they were 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:21.876 juniors or sophomoret or seniors in college, you know. And 0:14:21.996 --> 0:14:24.156 so it turned out nineteen fifty eight they needed a 0:14:24.196 --> 0:14:27.636 bass player for the Philharmonic orchestra for the fifty eight 0:14:27.636 --> 0:14:29.676 fifty nine season, you know. 0:14:30.556 --> 0:14:33.956 And uh so asker said you should be the guy 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:34.436 to do that. 0:14:35.836 --> 0:14:39.436 So I said, okay, So whatever whatever the process was, 0:14:40.156 --> 0:14:41.756 I got a call next day said that they had 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:43.556 the opening and the Philharmonica and they want me to 0:14:43.556 --> 0:14:47.236 fill the chair. I said, okay, this is what it takes, huh, okay, 0:14:47.596 --> 0:14:49.676 sign me up. Okay. So for a year I was 0:14:49.716 --> 0:14:53.956 the probably first personal club player in the Philharmonic Orchestra. 0:14:54.396 --> 0:14:58.276 You know, I'm still making gigs on weekends now. And 0:14:58.756 --> 0:15:01.996 uh one weekend there was Horace Silver's band a place 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:06.276 called Squeezers bam Box, and the horse had Teddy Kodak, 0:15:07.516 --> 0:15:10.316 maybe Clifford Jordan our farmer. 0:15:10.436 --> 0:15:12.796 He got a really good band man still back in Detroit. 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:16.636 No, no in Rochester, Rochester, Yeah, uh had a really 0:15:16.676 --> 0:15:19.996 good band. So ultimately I joined the house the house band, 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:24.236 the place called a rich Crest and uh uh just 0:15:24.276 --> 0:15:26.596 out side of New York, and they bought him acts 0:15:27.516 --> 0:15:30.516 and I was part of the intermission band. Me drummer 0:15:30.556 --> 0:15:33.996 named Don Manning and pianist named Joe Close who walkman 0:15:34.076 --> 0:15:35.916 left town and went to Joe went to sell the 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:40.236 uh Jo Ernestin Anderson a really good piano player. And 0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:42.716 then even some seeing all these guys come in weekends 0:15:42.716 --> 0:15:47.276 with this with the uh uh officer of dis disach band. 0:15:48.276 --> 0:15:50.796 Uh I met ike Issex, who was what Camonkree at 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:53.836 the time. You know, Sam Jones came through, you know, 0:15:54.916 --> 0:15:58.476 uh sunny Stick came by himself as a single and 0:15:58.476 --> 0:16:01.556 and uh so he played with the house band. So 0:16:01.756 --> 0:16:04.996 and me, the Joe and and Don and the first 0:16:05.076 --> 0:16:07.196 time he tried us, I was de flat blues right here. 0:16:07.996 --> 0:16:11.756 M I said, well, okay, I can do that nothing 0:16:11.796 --> 0:16:14.436 but the blues and deflat then, I mean, really that's 0:16:14.436 --> 0:16:17.436 the test, you know, and so we got. It was 0:16:17.676 --> 0:16:20.876 that nice experience to me to see how this guy 0:16:21.636 --> 0:16:23.476 who is as close to bridge you can get without 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:28.756 being buried, played every night that level. I mean, it 0:16:28.876 --> 0:16:33.156 was just often. It's just amazing, you know. Uh some 0:16:33.356 --> 0:16:35.116 Gaelic mean that he may not know his name, but 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:37.476 he's one of the early duals Slim and Slim and Slam. 0:16:38.516 --> 0:16:40.076 And he came in as a single and we talked 0:16:40.076 --> 0:16:42.516 about music and changes and chords. You know, they were 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:47.356 really making this music concept more available to me firsthand. 0:16:47.516 --> 0:16:47.796 You know. 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:51.396 So anyway, I'm in Philharmonic Arcs. We have concerts, and 0:16:51.436 --> 0:16:53.796 I got a white bow time matching vest, you know. 0:16:53.876 --> 0:17:01.356 And then uh uh they had guest conductors, Pierre Montreu, uh, 0:17:02.156 --> 0:17:04.916 Leo Postokowski, all these people came into four or five 0:17:04.956 --> 0:17:07.676 of them. And so one day I'm got to rosal 0:17:07.836 --> 0:17:12.076 Leo Posta Cooski was about for six you know, now 0:17:12.156 --> 0:17:14.436 six two six three something like that. You know, he said, 0:17:14.716 --> 0:17:17.516 why don't you have a seat? I get some look 0:17:17.556 --> 0:17:19.076 in the eye to eye, cause I was you know, 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:22.436 he says, so the young man, I have noticed your 0:17:22.476 --> 0:17:25.076 performance here, and you seem like a really good person 0:17:25.716 --> 0:17:27.436 and a marvelous player. And I'd like you to go 0:17:27.476 --> 0:17:30.836 to my orchestra down in Texas. But the boy of 0:17:30.876 --> 0:17:33.636 the directors right now, I'm not ready to hire colored people. 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:40.756 H I said, Okay, that's the first honest I mean, 0:17:40.876 --> 0:17:44.636 that's the first honest answer I got to describe the 0:17:44.676 --> 0:17:49.876 classical world at that time, you know, I said, okay, 0:17:50.076 --> 0:17:52.636 and and uh right went right. Then I knew that 0:17:52.676 --> 0:17:55.196 I had to find another a another play to play music, 0:17:56.476 --> 0:17:59.636 you know. And along this time the bass players would 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:02.276 say that I had some skills, and they thought that 0:18:02.316 --> 0:18:03.956 I'd do good in New York. They didn't know my 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.156 classical interest. That that wasn't con that wasn't there thing. 0:18:07.196 --> 0:18:09.636 I just a bass player was in the and then 0:18:09.676 --> 0:18:12.796 in the mission band, you know, they said, New York. 0:18:12.796 --> 0:18:14.196 He's a good bass player. And she'd come in and 0:18:14.236 --> 0:18:17.836 try you look, you know. In the meantime, I met 0:18:17.876 --> 0:18:20.636 a couple of guys called the Man Jones, Gap and 0:18:20.756 --> 0:18:24.716 Chuck and their family the man Jones. Frank and Nancy 0:18:25.356 --> 0:18:27.876 hosted any musician who came to town who played jazz. 0:18:28.316 --> 0:18:31.596 They hosted them for lunch or dinner. It's clearly amazing. 0:18:32.276 --> 0:18:34.396 So I meant dazzy. I meant all those guys at 0:18:34.396 --> 0:18:38.036 their home for dinner. And the Chuck and Gap had 0:18:38.076 --> 0:18:42.316 a band, and and the tentler named Benny sells out 0:18:42.316 --> 0:18:46.196 in a band called Little Giants, and uh or Keaton 0:18:46.196 --> 0:18:48.196 has heard about them and game they made a record 0:18:48.236 --> 0:18:51.356 with the Riverside. Uh So I was in my first 0:18:51.396 --> 0:18:55.716 record back then in those days, and they were clearly 0:18:55.836 --> 0:19:03.396 encouraging me, not necessarily not to play classical, but to 0:19:03.516 --> 0:19:08.996 acknowledge from my talent. Also lay you know, they're providing 0:19:09.316 --> 0:19:12.716 many a meal cause I had no money. The kid 0:19:12.716 --> 0:19:14.556 didn't pay much, but he did keep me in school. 0:19:15.356 --> 0:19:17.836 I just got married in nineteen fifty eight. I I 0:19:18.036 --> 0:19:21.196 was not scustling, but they made it easy to not 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:25.676 worry about where my next meal was coming from. Frank 0:19:25.716 --> 0:19:27.276 and Nancy well a lovely couple. 0:19:27.356 --> 0:19:27.556 Man. 0:19:28.036 --> 0:19:28.236 You know. 0:19:29.316 --> 0:19:31.596 Of course Chuck got famous, and the Gap cause the 0:19:31.636 --> 0:19:33.836 local piano player who've worked all the time. They're really 0:19:33.916 --> 0:19:37.276 great people. Until this day. I'm in touch with gap 0:19:37.316 --> 0:19:42.996 in Charlie. Now you know in any event, U ultimately, Uh, 0:19:43.236 --> 0:19:46.876 jazz shows ken in Rochester at the Eastman Theater, and 0:19:46.956 --> 0:19:49.676 they had the Jazz Package shows and they were all 0:19:49.796 --> 0:19:52.116 jazz acts. The particular show. 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:52.316 Had men A. 0:19:52.436 --> 0:19:57.716 Ferkinson's band, had Lamon Herricks and Ross's band, had Dave 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:00.836 Rubik's group and Miles all in the same show man, 0:20:01.116 --> 0:20:04.636 you know. And and UH and me and Chuck and 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:07.796 Charlie went to the concert. I said, let's see what 0:20:07.836 --> 0:20:09.316 it looks like, you know, Okay. 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:09.396 You know. 0:20:10.116 --> 0:20:12.676 So it turned out some almost supposed to take the 0:20:12.756 --> 0:20:14.876 band to the train station, cause that was part of 0:20:14.916 --> 0:20:18.396 the truck line from Canada, Canada upstate New York. Yeah, 0:20:18.436 --> 0:20:20.836 you had the other to New York City. And they 0:20:20.876 --> 0:20:23.076 all made a stop at this Rochester cause there's a 0:20:23.076 --> 0:20:29.116 big school Rochester, rit big you know, it's Eastern Kodak, 0:20:29.516 --> 0:20:32.676 it's all there, Balsh and Lob, it's all there. It's 0:20:32.716 --> 0:20:34.676 a good financial stop to make come way back to 0:20:34.716 --> 0:20:38.116 New York from Canada, you know. And anyway, so who 0:20:38.196 --> 0:20:40.596 was supposed to take these guys to the translation never 0:20:40.636 --> 0:20:44.356 showed up and s and so uh the guy asked me, 0:20:44.356 --> 0:20:46.476 would I take him to the transtation. Miles band through 0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:48.036 the transtation. I said, I got to look forward. 0:20:48.116 --> 0:20:48.316 Man. 0:20:48.356 --> 0:20:51.636 You know these guys they they didn't at level of transportation. 0:20:52.116 --> 0:20:54.636 So no, no, no, they ride with you. So I 0:20:54.676 --> 0:20:57.716 took Miles and and and uh Red Garland to the 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:00.796 transtation of my car. And but that's it, just ride. 0:21:01.156 --> 0:21:03.436 We were you know, they were famous. I'm in school, 0:21:03.476 --> 0:21:05.796 I'm basic playing school. But the Philarmonic had you listen 0:21:05.876 --> 0:21:06.356 to them yet? 0:21:06.916 --> 0:21:07.396 Not really? 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:09.636 I mean I knew who they were, but then everybody 0:21:09.676 --> 0:21:12.396 knew who they were, you know. But uh, I was 0:21:13.596 --> 0:21:15.716 just impressed that they trusted my driving skills. 0:21:17.156 --> 0:21:21.556 Yeah, yeah, I got nineteen nineteen fifty Ford man, come on, 0:21:21.796 --> 0:21:25.276 you know, uh so you see hello, how are you 0:21:25.356 --> 0:21:27.916 mister Davis and mister mister Garland. 0:21:27.956 --> 0:21:29.876 You know I'm the guy to go take it to 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:34.196 the train station. Okay, good, all right, Okay, that's it. 0:21:35.756 --> 0:21:38.636 So I graduated. So in the meantime, Jicko Hamilton had 0:21:38.636 --> 0:21:41.236 a band and he told me we had we we 0:21:41.236 --> 0:21:44.756 see said, uh someone said, he said, hey, Ronnie, all 0:21:44.876 --> 0:21:47.516 you played Chell? Yes I do, mister mister Hampton said 0:21:47.756 --> 0:21:50.916 play something. So I brought a chiller and said in 0:21:50.956 --> 0:21:52.516 the practice room and play a couple of things with 0:21:52.556 --> 0:21:54.756 a box that I knew, so still had some skills, 0:21:54.796 --> 0:21:56.956 you know. He said, we were working in New York 0:21:56.956 --> 0:21:58.636 on this day, August. Work it is, and if you 0:21:58.636 --> 0:22:01.556 get to New York when you graduately, come to New York. 0:22:01.556 --> 0:22:03.876 And if I'm working, take my Chello players about to 0:22:04.036 --> 0:22:06.836 leave the band and I need a policeman. 0:22:07.236 --> 0:22:07.956 Are you interested? 0:22:09.716 --> 0:22:12.196 I said, well, I mentioned, I'm not sure how many 0:22:12.236 --> 0:22:14.196 skills I have left cause I haven't played in a 0:22:14.276 --> 0:22:16.196 long time, but I think I can hamlet it, you know. 0:22:16.956 --> 0:22:19.876 He said, well, come to New York. And then if 0:22:19.916 --> 0:22:22.876 they how are you? I said, okay. So I graduated 0:22:22.916 --> 0:22:26.036 at June of nineteen fifty nine and got me to 0:22:26.116 --> 0:22:27.996 New York office for the same year, and the band 0:22:28.036 --> 0:22:31.476 was working at Birdland. So I walked downstairs. You know, 0:22:33.316 --> 0:22:37.756 I'm mister Hamilton here. He said, well, change the plans. 0:22:37.836 --> 0:22:40.196 I said, oh yeah, what said, Well, chel players are 0:22:40.236 --> 0:22:43.276 going to stay, but I need a bass player White 0:22:43.396 --> 0:22:45.236 Rules for bul Rules have decided to go back to 0:22:45.276 --> 0:22:48.476 Seattle and set up shopping in Seattle. Are you doing 0:22:48.596 --> 0:22:50.956 to take this gig? I said, sure, I'm here now 0:22:50.956 --> 0:22:53.236 I've meant a commitment to stay here. You know, who's 0:22:53.276 --> 0:22:56.196 in a band. Then this buddy Mire plants playing guitar, 0:22:57.316 --> 0:23:00.236 that Gerson was a cello player and her dolphin was 0:23:00.236 --> 0:23:04.036 a red player. I said, okay, and he said, I said, 0:23:04.036 --> 0:23:06.276 we're leaving in uh wherever it is. We got to 0:23:06.276 --> 0:23:08.916 come country on the road, and we come back. We 0:23:08.996 --> 0:23:10.756 go to California for a while. I said, well, you know, 0:23:10.796 --> 0:23:13.396 I'm still going to school. He said, well, why don't 0:23:13.396 --> 0:23:17.356 you try to delete the school until January and en roll? 0:23:17.556 --> 0:23:19.356 And I'll say, I don't know, not to talk to 0:23:19.436 --> 0:23:21.916 them because I got a scholarship for a master's program 0:23:22.196 --> 0:23:24.236 for the year, you know, and I'm not I think 0:23:24.276 --> 0:23:27.596 i'd cancel it. I'll be in We'll talk with him, 0:23:27.596 --> 0:23:29.676 you know. So I talked to the school and said, 0:23:29.796 --> 0:23:31.276 I got this chance to go on the road, but 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:35.076 chick on hambleting, you know, can I start my scholarship 0:23:35.196 --> 0:23:38.876 in January of nineteen sixty rather than. 0:23:40.196 --> 0:23:41.836 The fall of fifty nine? 0:23:41.956 --> 0:23:47.596 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said, okay, okay. 0:23:47.676 --> 0:23:49.996 You know, so I left town with chicken hamblting for 0:23:50.196 --> 0:23:53.676 like five four weeks, all these stops on We drove 0:23:53.716 --> 0:23:56.196 from Boston to Los Angeles. 0:23:58.236 --> 0:23:58.516 Drove. 0:23:58.756 --> 0:23:59.556 How was that drive? 0:24:00.076 --> 0:24:03.316 We had four drivers, Chico, me and Timmy and his 0:24:03.396 --> 0:24:04.036 brother drove. 0:24:04.156 --> 0:24:04.756 So it was fun. 0:24:04.876 --> 0:24:07.276 You know, I'm just a guy in Detroit, but family 0:24:07.316 --> 0:24:11.236 of six, six girls and my brother. It's all new 0:24:11.276 --> 0:24:15.836 to me. Man. You know. Uh, one of the stops, 0:24:15.836 --> 0:24:17.556 by the way, it was in Washington, d C. The 0:24:17.596 --> 0:24:21.596 first stop in Washington, and uh, it's it. It was 0:24:21.876 --> 0:24:24.956 really north of New York, but cause it's really down 0:24:25.036 --> 0:24:28.236 south for me, you know. And we put up to 0:24:28.276 --> 0:24:30.356 Howard Johnson's if you know that name from back in 0:24:30.396 --> 0:24:34.596 the day, and and uh were right in the bus 0:24:34.596 --> 0:24:36.956 of the the shows and of the show's tracking by bus. 0:24:36.996 --> 0:24:40.076 You know, they had Colin Hawkins and Mouser's band. That's 0:24:40.116 --> 0:24:42.596 just a great bunch of people. To watch them operate, 0:24:43.196 --> 0:24:47.196 watch them talk, watch how they communicated with each other 0:24:47.276 --> 0:24:48.796 with all their genius skills. 0:24:48.956 --> 0:24:49.196 You know. 0:24:51.236 --> 0:24:52.956 So we end in waiting in the bus for a while. 0:24:53.116 --> 0:24:55.196 We still waiting, and then the guy comes back and says, well, 0:24:55.716 --> 0:24:57.636 you know that they don't serve black people. Yes, we 0:24:57.676 --> 0:24:59.236 have to go around the back or find somewhere else 0:24:59.276 --> 0:25:02.836 to eat, you know, And Howard Johnson's Yeah, I said ah, 0:25:03.796 --> 0:25:07.996 this is, this is, this is Yeah, you got the 0:25:08.076 --> 0:25:10.636 bus for the geniuses and they didn't want to serve 0:25:10.676 --> 0:25:12.156 them be cause they're not white. I didn't. I didn't, 0:25:12.156 --> 0:25:15.316 I didn't. I I didn't get that. You know, I'm 0:25:15.396 --> 0:25:19.596 uh twenty maybe nineteen now, you know, from Detroit, like 0:25:19.716 --> 0:25:22.116 the riots and all that stuff. So I the idea 0:25:22.156 --> 0:25:24.196 of that kind of convertation is not new to me. 0:25:24.956 --> 0:25:27.916 But to be so close to it and to see 0:25:28.196 --> 0:25:30.996 the people who they don't wanna serve a sandwich to 0:25:31.116 --> 0:25:32.676 man this talent, how could that be? 0:25:32.916 --> 0:25:33.116 Man? 0:25:33.756 --> 0:25:35.716 But so I'll just fucking picture how could that? How 0:25:35.716 --> 0:25:41.116 could that take place? You know? Hello, world, world, next door? 0:25:41.276 --> 0:25:46.876 Come this way that you know? Any event, I got 0:25:46.916 --> 0:25:52.196 over that and I understood. Okay. So one of these 0:25:52.236 --> 0:25:55.076 things I do, guys, is when I do these interviews. 0:25:55.796 --> 0:25:59.516 They always wanted to know about my classical background. I said, okay, 0:25:59.596 --> 0:26:01.636 you know, and and uh how I feel about it, 0:26:01.716 --> 0:26:04.156 you know? And uh do I have no regrets? And 0:26:04.196 --> 0:26:06.676 do I miss it? All those courts I give our 0:26:06.676 --> 0:26:08.876 small yes, I do miss it. I've made some wonderful 0:26:08.876 --> 0:26:11.836 fore answer that I grew up with some great people 0:26:11.836 --> 0:26:13.476 who are trying to play it better like I was. 0:26:13.716 --> 0:26:21.356 You know, I missed the sound of the orchestra. That's 0:26:21.396 --> 0:26:24.796 one thing to listen to a record. It's nothing to 0:26:24.836 --> 0:26:27.876 be sitting right in the middle of the sound. That's 0:26:27.916 --> 0:26:33.396 an incredible feeling. Man, I missed that, you know, but 0:26:33.516 --> 0:26:35.916 they were not. But take what you do, just the interviewer, 0:26:37.116 --> 0:26:40.116 this is nineteen sixty two, sixty three, sixty four, whatever 0:26:40.156 --> 0:26:42.716 it was. Just take some pictures of the orchests. Go back, 0:26:42.956 --> 0:26:47.036 go back ten years now. All orchestras had a photograph 0:26:47.076 --> 0:26:52.516 for the orchestra for the promo Chicago, Philly, Cleveland, New York, Boston. 0:26:53.276 --> 0:26:55.276 And you let me know how many minorities are in 0:26:55.276 --> 0:26:58.956 those orchestras compared to the orchestras on the stage now, 0:26:58.956 --> 0:27:05.036 whatever it would have been. And you think that's okay, 0:27:05.916 --> 0:27:08.436 You think that didn't You think that hasn't made an 0:27:08.436 --> 0:27:14.076 impression on May still And I said not. These schools 0:27:15.036 --> 0:27:20.236 and it's not a propaganda's conversation. Now this is page three. 0:27:22.276 --> 0:27:25.556 These schools are still turning out wonderful African American musician 0:27:25.636 --> 0:27:31.876 players to be primarily symphonie players or players. And if 0:27:31.876 --> 0:27:34.916 you look at the number of photographs of these orchestras 0:27:36.076 --> 0:27:40.956 at five year intervals, and the same five year intervals 0:27:40.956 --> 0:27:43.956 that these schools are turning out these wonderful classical players 0:27:44.476 --> 0:27:45.476 orchestral players to. 0:27:45.556 --> 0:27:48.036 Be what happens to them. 0:27:48.436 --> 0:27:51.876 According to these pictures, they're not working with Cleveland or 0:27:51.916 --> 0:27:59.556 Philadelphia or New York or Boston or Los Angeles, where 0:27:59.636 --> 0:28:05.956 these kids what happened to them. The reason my picture 0:28:05.996 --> 0:28:08.956 is not in these pictures, they're towing them out in 0:28:08.956 --> 0:28:11.556 the ago that they weren't ready to hire color people. 0:28:12.436 --> 0:28:16.116 That's why I'm not playing there. According to these pictures, 0:28:16.156 --> 0:28:19.076 I'm looking at if I've got my shirt, like home glasses, 0:28:19.596 --> 0:28:23.676 all that kind of stuff. Nonhing's changed other than the 0:28:23.796 --> 0:28:28.356 date of the calendar man, you know. So there's a 0:28:28.396 --> 0:28:32.276 lot of work. There's a lot of work to be done. 0:28:33.156 --> 0:28:36.556 And my footnote to this kind of conversation always kind 0:28:36.556 --> 0:28:38.956 of ends up there because they think I just know 0:28:38.996 --> 0:28:44.476 about miles and my life started in nineteen sixty three 0:28:44.596 --> 0:28:48.956 to sixty eight and a half. You know, I as 0:28:48.996 --> 0:28:54.316 to say I'm expearenced. I'm living that life, you know, 0:28:56.236 --> 0:28:59.436 you know, and one of the things that keeps just 0:28:59.676 --> 0:29:06.436 fire blue. You know in Nassian Torch that the hottest 0:29:06.476 --> 0:29:08.956 fire is not to flame. It's this blue thing, you know, 0:29:10.876 --> 0:29:12.476 one of the kind of things that keeps keeps me 0:29:12.516 --> 0:29:18.276 on fire, that color. You know, our situations like when 0:29:18.276 --> 0:29:21.716 I was doing commercial work in New York, New Orchestra's 0:29:21.796 --> 0:29:24.436 doing stuff bix bix scores in New York. You know, 0:29:25.436 --> 0:29:27.476 there has a sex us of a se base section 0:29:27.556 --> 0:29:31.156 of uh. They were from four to five players A 0:29:31.356 --> 0:29:34.556 and UH. I was known as the hot jazz player 0:29:34.596 --> 0:29:36.436 in town. So they wanted to know what I'm They 0:29:36.436 --> 0:29:37.956 wanna know what I'm doing there. 0:29:38.076 --> 0:29:38.276 You know. 0:29:39.116 --> 0:29:41.796 So the the the the the the game was guys 0:29:41.836 --> 0:29:46.156 that the everyone who were not specifically assigned their first chair, 0:29:47.516 --> 0:29:49.716 they got there earlier so they could be the first chair. 0:29:50.556 --> 0:29:53.316 That means you got the best money, highest paid, you 0:29:53.356 --> 0:29:55.076 got a little more respect from the orchestra, could do 0:29:55.116 --> 0:29:57.756 the first chair violin as a base play, whatever where 0:29:57.796 --> 0:30:00.316 it was, you got a chance to make the boweling, 0:30:00.436 --> 0:30:02.156 the fingering you were. That was all on you. And 0:30:02.636 --> 0:30:05.276 the remaining four or five people in the section. Their 0:30:05.356 --> 0:30:08.436 job was to say yes, yes, yes, yes, you know 0:30:09.476 --> 0:30:12.596 A and UH. Because I was either number four or 0:30:12.596 --> 0:30:16.556 five on the list of important players. You know, I 0:30:16.556 --> 0:30:20.876 I I didn't feel that. Uh, they thought I'd be 0:30:20.876 --> 0:30:23.636 along there cause I just finished I said with Miles 0:30:23.756 --> 0:30:28.516 Miles Davis last night, or or Randy Weston or Herbian Man, whoever, 0:30:28.556 --> 0:30:31.476 whoever the gig was for that week. You know. So 0:30:31.516 --> 0:30:34.996 one day I had enough, So t the sessions were 0:30:35.076 --> 0:30:37.196 like nine to nine to one and two to five, 0:30:38.316 --> 0:30:39.916 and you come back and you do the lunch. You know, 0:30:39.956 --> 0:30:44.156 I said, Okay, guys, I got this. I'm I'm telling me, 0:30:44.876 --> 0:30:47.236 you know. So we took a break at one one o'clock, 0:30:47.316 --> 0:30:50.156 you know, and I know that uh about twelve thirty 0:30:50.316 --> 0:30:53.036 one o'clock they gonna start filtering and get for the 0:30:53.036 --> 0:30:55.676 next happen. You know, I get there before these base 0:30:55.676 --> 0:30:59.796 prients get there. Now, while I hadn't been in an 0:30:59.876 --> 0:31:02.556 orchestra seriously for like three or four years, I never 0:31:02.596 --> 0:31:06.196 forgot the library, and I knew all the things that 0:31:06.356 --> 0:31:10.116 base priers had the audition to be accepted. I know 0:31:10.236 --> 0:31:12.396 that stuff. Man, I just didn't put in the trash. 0:31:12.396 --> 0:31:15.116 Can just stort part of my uh DNA, you know. 0:31:17.116 --> 0:31:18.796 So what I decided to do is just give them 0:31:18.796 --> 0:31:21.556 a lesson of what my capacity was in my experience. 0:31:22.476 --> 0:31:24.556 So I just said I'm selling in the last chair 0:31:24.756 --> 0:31:27.116 cause that was my seat at the film, you know, okay, 0:31:27.636 --> 0:31:30.796 And I played three or four orchestral excerpts through the keys, 0:31:32.996 --> 0:31:37.436 and I just let it. That's that's my statement. M 0:31:39.276 --> 0:31:40.596 that's him. I said, hey, where you go? I said, 0:31:40.716 --> 0:31:42.396 I got a gig my to Berlin. Then I I 0:31:42.436 --> 0:31:46.636 can't stay here. You know. That's the footnote. That's kind 0:31:46.636 --> 0:31:50.996 of conversation. So yes, I'm still affected by that. You 0:31:51.036 --> 0:31:55.476 can't let that go. If you let it go, it 0:31:55.556 --> 0:31:58.076 continues somewhere else and someone who can't handle it. And 0:31:58.836 --> 0:32:01.596 I hate to thank guys of how much talent that's 0:32:01.636 --> 0:32:05.436 not available to a public of listening music because they're 0:32:05.476 --> 0:32:08.516 not they're not the uh cause they're probably of the 0:32:08.596 --> 0:32:14.476 minority string section, string player, you know. Uh. Again, the 0:32:14.556 --> 0:32:18.556 pictures are slowly having a little more representative of a 0:32:18.676 --> 0:32:24.036 broader musical ability of players in minority community who deserve 0:32:24.156 --> 0:32:26.836 to be in these chairs. Like these other guys and 0:32:26.916 --> 0:32:32.556 gals are gal singular, you know, but I think, uh, 0:32:34.196 --> 0:32:37.996 this blue part of the sling torch, I think is 0:32:38.076 --> 0:32:44.796 necessary for me. You know, I enjoy the memories and 0:32:44.836 --> 0:32:47.476 I don't regret not being able to have those memories live. 0:32:48.716 --> 0:32:50.236 Matter is that they wanted to hire me and I 0:32:50.316 --> 0:32:54.916 passed the auditions. They couldn't afford me. I mean they 0:32:54.956 --> 0:32:59.196 we could not afford what I get. I'm bringing a 0:32:59.236 --> 0:33:04.716 whole whole other vibe to this orchestra and what they 0:33:04.756 --> 0:33:09.876 stand for. I'm more famous than the conductor. What does 0:33:09.916 --> 0:33:16.276 that cost? 0:33:16.596 --> 0:33:19.276 We'll be right back with more from Ron Carter after 0:33:19.316 --> 0:33:25.796 the break. We're back with more from Ron Carter. Down 0:33:26.036 --> 0:33:29.796 was and me? How do you contriue the blue flame 0:33:30.756 --> 0:33:34.956 that they keeps you from here? How do you keep 0:33:34.956 --> 0:33:39.036 that burning without burning yourself? 0:33:39.396 --> 0:33:45.556 The DNA that helps make keep a balance, you know, uh, 0:33:47.476 --> 0:33:51.956 balance meaning there's always someone out there, some young kid 0:33:53.476 --> 0:33:57.076 of color, you know, who was who was going through 0:33:57.876 --> 0:34:04.356 what I went through sixty years ago, and if they're 0:34:04.396 --> 0:34:06.676 doing any homework and do any research, because it's not 0:34:06.836 --> 0:34:10.276 so available to them, because you know, here's some person 0:34:10.956 --> 0:34:13.476 who went through this kind of experience that I'm going 0:34:13.556 --> 0:34:17.636 through sixty years later, he found somewhere else for his talent. 0:34:19.516 --> 0:34:23.876 It doesn't mean that there can be a good jazz player. 0:34:25.196 --> 0:34:26.836 I mean they may turn out to be a better writer. 0:34:28.316 --> 0:34:33.556 I'll put their skills into being a composer. Or a 0:34:33.556 --> 0:34:37.516 better teacher. It just says them know that there's still 0:34:37.556 --> 0:34:41.196 the way to be involved in the community of some kind, 0:34:42.596 --> 0:34:44.916 even though it's not the one that you instanly chose, 0:34:45.916 --> 0:34:49.076 and someone else made that choice kind of for you. 0:34:49.516 --> 0:34:51.756 They threw you, and they threw you into another train track. 0:34:52.756 --> 0:34:53.236 That's okay. 0:34:54.236 --> 0:34:57.916 Did you feel like a did jazz playing the gig 0:34:57.996 --> 0:34:59.756 and you were doing and eventually I mean, you know, 0:35:00.516 --> 0:35:02.156 did that ever feel like a consolation? 0:35:02.516 --> 0:35:05.436 Early on, I felt like this one I'm supposed to be. 0:35:07.796 --> 0:35:07.916 Now. 0:35:07.956 --> 0:35:10.396 I never took it as a a great second choice. 0:35:11.316 --> 0:35:12.716 I'm saying those guys missed it. 0:35:13.156 --> 0:35:18.476 Yeah, you felt a natural affinity for it certain. 0:35:18.196 --> 0:35:20.316 Parts, yes, but I understood to do what I was 0:35:20.316 --> 0:35:23.156 doing they required another kind of level of work and commitment. 0:35:24.676 --> 0:35:27.636 It's one thing trying to stand what the right note 0:35:27.676 --> 0:35:30.756 could be some other things for other patients to keep 0:35:30.796 --> 0:35:31.356 looking for it. 0:35:34.876 --> 0:35:37.436 Did you listen to other styles of music, like when 0:35:37.436 --> 0:35:40.196 you were a kid, did you listen to the c KLW? 0:35:40.396 --> 0:35:43.556 And probably, But at the time, you know, church was 0:35:43.556 --> 0:35:46.356 still very important in my my and my family's, in 0:35:46.396 --> 0:35:50.636 my community's life, you know, So I knew all the 0:35:50.676 --> 0:35:54.236 church songs, all the words, you know, uh at the 0:35:54.276 --> 0:35:57.796 time my conversation. Then then then all the world changes. 0:35:57.876 --> 0:36:00.196 But I understood the harmony. You know. It was kind 0:36:00.236 --> 0:36:04.076 of complicated, you know, and I never went to the 0:36:04.156 --> 0:36:06.196 rehearsals because I was playing show and the stuff doing. 0:36:06.236 --> 0:36:08.476 You know. So that kind of muty was always in 0:36:08.556 --> 0:36:14.076 my in my family and my community. Uh. No one 0:36:14.156 --> 0:36:18.516 said jazz is the devil's music in myles or uh 0:36:18.756 --> 0:36:20.876 uh uh. When they when they would take the little 0:36:20.916 --> 0:36:23.996 kids to the uh Symphony Hall, Fisher Theater and they 0:36:24.156 --> 0:36:28.156 in the in the Detroit to see the orchestra, they 0:36:28.276 --> 0:36:30.476 encourage this, this is what the orchestra sound like. 0:36:31.276 --> 0:36:31.636 They were. 0:36:31.676 --> 0:36:34.556 They weren't saying that you can't be in there. But 0:36:34.716 --> 0:36:37.236 at the time of twelve or fourteen, you don't see 0:36:37.236 --> 0:36:41.116 anybody who looks like you, m a and they aren't 0:36:41.156 --> 0:36:44.036 planning that seed. They're just showing you an orchestra. 0:36:44.836 --> 0:36:44.956 You know. 0:36:45.156 --> 0:36:46.636 Where you take it from now that's kind of up 0:36:46.676 --> 0:36:51.276 to you. Your background, your interest, your the determination, you know, 0:36:51.476 --> 0:36:53.276 your skill level wherever it is. You know, do you 0:36:53.276 --> 0:36:54.916 wanna go through all this what whatever? 0:36:55.036 --> 0:36:55.236 You know? 0:36:56.276 --> 0:36:58.356 But no, I don't. I don't think that my career 0:36:58.396 --> 0:37:03.476 now it's that. I never thought it as a uh 0:37:03.716 --> 0:37:07.276 uh Constellation prize. 0:37:07.396 --> 0:37:09.196 Yeah, yeah, I think. 0:37:09.156 --> 0:37:10.636 Of how much those guys missed it. 0:37:10.956 --> 0:37:12.556 Yeah. 0:37:12.196 --> 0:37:14.756 Well, when you go back to Detroit over the years, 0:37:15.276 --> 0:37:17.516 I mean as your career starting is, you're going back 0:37:17.876 --> 0:37:21.036 late fifties, early sixties through the sixties, and you're seeing 0:37:21.876 --> 0:37:23.996 like Motown, for instance, happening in Detroit. 0:37:24.076 --> 0:37:24.236 Was that? 0:37:25.476 --> 0:37:27.596 I mean were you Were you watching that at all 0:37:27.636 --> 0:37:28.636 and interesting at all? 0:37:28.676 --> 0:37:30.756 Not at all at Detroit. 0:37:30.796 --> 0:37:34.196 I wasn't a jazz player, and so when I would 0:37:34.236 --> 0:37:37.156 go back for summer vacations, I would never go to 0:37:37.236 --> 0:37:39.436 the jazz clubs. I had a job by the one 0:37:39.476 --> 0:37:42.836 summer I spent as a progression director. My job is 0:37:42.916 --> 0:37:45.996 go to the parks at a park at seven o'clock. 0:37:45.996 --> 0:37:49.156 At eight o'clock, take out all the gids about the baseball, bat, 0:37:49.196 --> 0:37:52.116 the tub, the gloves, all that stuff, and mine to 0:37:52.156 --> 0:37:56.956 the kids behavior from nine o'clock to three o'clock. When 0:37:56.956 --> 0:37:58.796 that time came up, put stuff away and do it 0:37:58.796 --> 0:38:02.436 again tomorrow. So I kept my health together, I got 0:38:02.516 --> 0:38:05.676 my physical skill together. You know, I was older than 0:38:05.716 --> 0:38:07.316 most of the kids, so that was really the old 0:38:07.356 --> 0:38:13.116 man who's controlling that. The bad Mitton said, you know 0:38:13.516 --> 0:38:15.156 the guy who made us pick up the bases after 0:38:15.196 --> 0:38:17.916 the softball game. That I was okay with that because 0:38:17.916 --> 0:38:20.276 that's what I was. You know, I just want to 0:38:20.316 --> 0:38:20.996 be better than they were. 0:38:21.036 --> 0:38:21.596 Add it you. 0:38:24.316 --> 0:38:26.276 Did, did you bump into James Jamison? 0:38:26.556 --> 0:38:29.036 None of those man, I didn't know any of those people. 0:38:30.716 --> 0:38:32.276 Where was the people you went to high school? Was 0:38:32.316 --> 0:38:34.556 like Alice Coltrane, I didn't know her. 0:38:34.676 --> 0:38:38.076 My got Ira Jackson suophone players started playing after a while. 0:38:38.876 --> 0:38:41.716 Kirk Leitzing was my classmate. He used to do his 0:38:41.796 --> 0:38:50.436 homework homework. Uh, my classical my classmates of cast, they 0:38:50.476 --> 0:38:55.916 were all classical players like I was. And uh some 0:38:55.956 --> 0:38:58.636 of them went on to a major orchestras and conductors, 0:38:58.636 --> 0:39:01.716 the major's orchestras. Uh, some of them. A couple of 0:39:01.796 --> 0:39:05.116 them went to, uh we're in the Washington the DC Symphony. 0:39:05.796 --> 0:39:09.116 You know, a couple of them in the major orchestra 0:39:09.716 --> 0:39:12.916 scattered throughout the world. I was the only one of 0:39:12.956 --> 0:39:18.316 my class who went to jazz to this level wherever 0:39:18.316 --> 0:39:22.356 the level that is. But I kind of lost track 0:39:22.396 --> 0:39:24.276 of those guys and none of none of 'em did 0:39:24.316 --> 0:39:25.796 this for a living m you know. 0:39:26.356 --> 0:39:27.716 And you didn't know Paul Chambers. 0:39:28.756 --> 0:39:32.036 My father knew Hispanically, were both bus drivers. Yeah, and 0:39:32.116 --> 0:39:34.556 I didn't meet Paul in New York officially, but we 0:39:34.756 --> 0:39:36.836 never hung out cause I had a family. He had 0:39:36.876 --> 0:39:38.556 a family. He was trapped with Miles all the time. 0:39:38.716 --> 0:39:40.676 M I came to New York. I was still a 0:39:40.676 --> 0:39:42.316 student of Manhattan for a master's. 0:39:42.556 --> 0:39:43.316 Yeah. 0:39:43.476 --> 0:39:45.996 Uh, I did two gigs, but I was not where 0:39:45.996 --> 0:39:49.276 he was in the in the spectrum of the jazz community, 0:39:49.756 --> 0:39:55.756 you know. Having met Sam Jones and in Rochester, I 0:39:55.756 --> 0:39:57.636 came to New York and at some point a year 0:39:57.676 --> 0:40:01.636 or so later, Uh, Sam was working at Monk and 0:40:01.636 --> 0:40:03.436 at some point he got sick and he called me 0:40:03.476 --> 0:40:06.596 to c I meet this gig for him. I said, well, Monk, 0:40:06.636 --> 0:40:09.396 he said, yeah, you can do that. So I said okay. 0:40:09.476 --> 0:40:11.956 So I got my base and a cab and went 0:40:12.036 --> 0:40:14.116 in the subway and went down to a place called 0:40:14.156 --> 0:40:17.036 Circle in the Square, which is a block from the 0:40:17.116 --> 0:40:20.796 village gate. Cause this nice small theater, and I met 0:40:20.796 --> 0:40:22.956 mister Monks and mister Monk, Sam Jones is sick, and 0:40:23.036 --> 0:40:26.036 he called me the sub for him. He said, okay, 0:40:26.396 --> 0:40:29.396 do you know my songs? I said, most of them. 0:40:29.396 --> 0:40:31.076 He said, well tonight we'll find out which ones you 0:40:31.116 --> 0:40:36.436 don't know, and he was okay. So we did next 0:40:36.436 --> 0:40:39.196 week in Philadelphia for a week. So we getting this 0:40:39.236 --> 0:40:43.396 kid getting Barons' car as five thirty drive to drive 0:40:43.476 --> 0:40:47.476 to uh the PEPs to show place in Philadelphia, do 0:40:47.636 --> 0:40:50.436 two sets, getting her car and drive back to New 0:40:50.516 --> 0:40:52.276 York cause I had a class in Manhattan at eight 0:40:52.276 --> 0:40:56.156 o'clock in the morning. Did that for a week, but 0:40:56.236 --> 0:40:59.876 they shore one Saturday. Yeah. 0:41:00.356 --> 0:41:03.156 Another base Uh A bass player that you seem to 0:41:03.196 --> 0:41:06.636 have an interesting relationship with early on was George da Vivier. 0:41:06.996 --> 0:41:09.796 Yes, I saw George working with you. Did you go hambling? 0:41:09.836 --> 0:41:13.076 And and uh uh I didn't know the drummer, but 0:41:13.116 --> 0:41:15.076 the singer was uh Lena Horne. 0:41:15.356 --> 0:41:15.756 Wow. 0:41:16.756 --> 0:41:21.316 And George had had uh yell lieutenant sunglasses. Not only 0:41:21.316 --> 0:41:26.396 did he play it great, he looked different a and uh. 0:41:26.596 --> 0:41:30.556 Ultimately we became really good friends, I mean really close friends. Uh. 0:41:30.556 --> 0:41:33.036 When he got sick, I was by his side, you know. 0:41:33.756 --> 0:41:35.756 But he had a club called the Bass Fiddle up 0:41:35.796 --> 0:41:38.796 on Saint Nicholas in about a hundred and thirty fourth Street, 0:41:39.676 --> 0:41:41.316 and I would go back to the gigs to talk 0:41:41.356 --> 0:41:43.236 with him from my music, and he would had a 0:41:43.316 --> 0:41:45.796 juke box. They had all the jazz records on it. 0:41:46.636 --> 0:41:49.276 He would play one. He said, Oh, young fella, how'd 0:41:49.316 --> 0:41:54.916 you do that? I said, I said, Uh. MR said no, no, no, George, 0:41:55.676 --> 0:41:57.316 Uh George, I just hear what I do and try 0:41:57.316 --> 0:41:58.836 to find out how to make it work tomorrow night. 0:41:59.236 --> 0:42:01.396 He love that kind of stuff. I was with him 0:42:01.436 --> 0:42:03.436 on his bad days and his health days, you know. 0:42:03.516 --> 0:42:09.036 And and uh uh. One of his last earthly beings 0:42:09.276 --> 0:42:12.716 was a mona. Hinton and Milk were very great friends 0:42:12.716 --> 0:42:15.956 of his. And somehow he had gotten really sick of 0:42:16.036 --> 0:42:19.596 his home uptown and he couldn't get a cab t 0:42:19.596 --> 0:42:21.596 to couldn't get anybody to come pick him up and 0:42:21.636 --> 0:42:26.116 take him to the hospital. So i'mnna call me at home. Said, 0:42:26.116 --> 0:42:28.756 can you come to where we are uptown, to George's house, 0:42:28.876 --> 0:42:32.196 the apartmentere he was, and take George to the hospital 0:42:32.236 --> 0:42:36.116 cause we can't get a cab. M She said absolutely. 0:42:36.236 --> 0:42:37.636 So I got my son in the car, put the 0:42:37.636 --> 0:42:40.676 back seat down the little Volval, we drove uptown to 0:42:40.716 --> 0:42:42.996 George's house and ultimately they found a cab driver who 0:42:42.996 --> 0:42:45.276 will take him to the hospital and he was last. 0:42:45.356 --> 0:42:49.316 He didn't survive much past that time, you know. Uh, 0:42:49.356 --> 0:42:51.796 but yeah he was. He was uh a person whose 0:42:51.916 --> 0:42:55.796 imagery of the base was really really impactful. This is 0:42:55.796 --> 0:42:59.436 what the base can do in the group. A and uh, 0:43:00.116 --> 0:43:05.396 we didn't have a social connection in terms of going 0:43:05.596 --> 0:43:07.316 going by south for Dannel or come to my hout. 0:43:07.356 --> 0:43:11.356 And it was always com to the base. H how 0:43:11.396 --> 0:43:14.356 the base does in the groups. The white groups are 0:43:14.356 --> 0:43:18.516 called him. They needed him there cause he was the 0:43:18.556 --> 0:43:21.716 best at what there was. He had what they needed. 0:43:22.796 --> 0:43:25.236 There's a a very important thing to see it take place, 0:43:26.156 --> 0:43:29.476 given being told that the orchestra are not ready to 0:43:29.516 --> 0:43:30.476 hire colored people yet. 0:43:30.716 --> 0:43:32.156 Yeah, and I'm un in them in New York. 0:43:32.156 --> 0:43:33.956 Man, with all these great players come to New York, 0:43:34.516 --> 0:43:36.156 I see this guy playing in the same base I'm 0:43:36.236 --> 0:43:38.516 kind of playing. And he gets these gigs cause the 0:43:38.556 --> 0:43:40.596 white guys know, they didn't need him in the orchestra 0:43:41.396 --> 0:43:42.876 and the and the S and the and their group. 0:43:43.356 --> 0:43:45.076 That's quite a. 0:43:45.356 --> 0:43:47.956 That kind of well white jazz groups ja. 0:43:48.636 --> 0:43:50.556 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the white guys were badly the 0:43:50.836 --> 0:43:52.876 Benny Goodman the kind of cats you know though, that 0:43:52.876 --> 0:43:58.636 that spectrum of Yeah, the music scene, the big time guys. Yeah, 0:43:59.036 --> 0:44:01.596 they call George to call Milt cause they knew they 0:44:01.596 --> 0:44:05.076 were bring something into their band that nobody else give 'em. 0:44:05.196 --> 0:44:11.356 Yeah, left an impression. I got that. 0:44:13.676 --> 0:44:15.476 We'll be right back with the rest of our conversation 0:44:15.556 --> 0:44:22.836 with Ron Carter after this last break, We're back with 0:44:22.876 --> 0:44:25.116 the rest of our conversation with Ron Carter. 0:44:26.236 --> 0:44:30.036 For listeners who don't really know when you when you 0:44:30.116 --> 0:44:33.876 talk about the role of the base in a in 0:44:33.956 --> 0:44:36.436 a band, I don't. I don't know that the people 0:44:36.516 --> 0:44:40.116 really understand everything that that a base can do besides 0:44:40.196 --> 0:44:43.116 just hold down low end or something like that. 0:44:43.316 --> 0:44:46.836 Well, you know, I kind of don't mind that. I mean, 0:44:48.956 --> 0:44:52.596 I go to concert occasionally classic concerts, and I've gone 0:44:52.636 --> 0:44:54.596 to the offense I can't and I don't see the 0:44:54.636 --> 0:44:59.636 audience specifically one what kind of basse player, what kind 0:44:59.636 --> 0:45:02.276 of based does the bass player I have? And what 0:45:02.356 --> 0:45:05.076 kind of strengths is he using? And what kind of 0:45:05.076 --> 0:45:07.396 fingering does he have? I don't see them doing that. 0:45:07.516 --> 0:45:10.636 You know, only the he has audience is forced to 0:45:10.676 --> 0:45:14.676 be that kind of research person for the person for 0:45:14.716 --> 0:45:16.916 his don't you need to know what I do? Just 0:45:17.196 --> 0:45:17.956 can you like the. 0:45:17.876 --> 0:45:19.396 Results of it? That's what I'm concerned with. 0:45:20.636 --> 0:45:24.116 Having said that, though, you can't just accept that as 0:45:24.156 --> 0:45:26.956 being the way it is. And I try to respond 0:45:26.996 --> 0:45:31.516 to them in an adult fashion, not not sandbox styles. 0:45:31.796 --> 0:45:33.876 I try to explain to them that just okay, I'll 0:45:33.876 --> 0:45:34.076 tell you. 0:45:34.076 --> 0:45:34.476 What you do. 0:45:34.876 --> 0:45:39.116 You person, watch the next football game, you two. You know, 0:45:39.796 --> 0:45:42.956 there's a guy who's clearly the quarterback. What he's doing, 0:45:42.996 --> 0:45:44.836 he's got if it's in his ear, he's got ear 0:45:44.996 --> 0:45:48.716 ear piece. That's someone upstairs, and and the thing and 0:45:48.756 --> 0:45:50.716 the coach. I tell him what I played the call? 0:45:52.436 --> 0:45:55.196 Uh yeah, and he's doing, has this honest sleeve he has. 0:45:55.236 --> 0:45:57.636 He has the the details here some kind of way, 0:45:58.476 --> 0:46:02.716 and he's called shots wherever he does. Everybody must buy 0:46:02.796 --> 0:46:05.316 that cause he just got the word from heaven or 0:46:05.596 --> 0:46:09.396 that this is what it is. Okay, he got quint 0:46:09.436 --> 0:46:12.876 out on the stage, the main net to cost the tune. 0:46:13.676 --> 0:46:17.716 And there's no one doing like this but this guy 0:46:17.876 --> 0:46:24.116 in his head. Imagine that. I try to him to 0:46:24.116 --> 0:46:24.956 see that kind of angle. 0:46:25.236 --> 0:46:26.116 You have all the power. 0:46:26.956 --> 0:46:32.676 Indeed, and they understand that they're rating four guys buying 0:46:32.756 --> 0:46:37.636 largely understand that some of them don't. That's okay. 0:46:38.516 --> 0:46:42.076 What happens when you start going in a certain direction 0:46:42.676 --> 0:46:45.796 and you feel the other players aren't there. 0:46:45.836 --> 0:46:48.756 I don't want to go do that. Yeah, I accept that. 0:46:49.356 --> 0:46:52.516 Maybe they want me to two p all night. I'll 0:46:52.516 --> 0:46:57.116 do it. Footnote to this answer. I was doing that 0:46:57.236 --> 0:47:00.916 date with a singer at some point, and the process 0:47:01.156 --> 0:47:05.956 was they would have an arranger coming from California, make 0:47:06.036 --> 0:47:09.916 some sketches for the arrangement, and the singer would come 0:47:09.956 --> 0:47:12.476 in and rhythm sec make this. They'd make this track 0:47:12.796 --> 0:47:15.636 with him singing, and the arrange would take the tracks 0:47:15.676 --> 0:47:17.876 back out to California and filling in with the orchestra 0:47:17.996 --> 0:47:21.676 the stuff. You know, well, I'll joined this part on 0:47:21.716 --> 0:47:24.956 this specific date. And uh, the rhythm section I was 0:47:24.996 --> 0:47:26.716 with was a really a bunch of good guys in 0:47:26.756 --> 0:47:31.636 New York. That's always the case. And we communally had 0:47:31.636 --> 0:47:35.356 decided that these changes were kind of stiff and we 0:47:35.396 --> 0:47:37.076 didn't wanna do that for six hours. 0:47:38.036 --> 0:47:38.196 You know. 0:47:38.276 --> 0:47:40.996 Our job was kind of making hip for us, cause 0:47:41.036 --> 0:47:42.076 we got to play this stuff. 0:47:42.076 --> 0:47:42.316 You know. 0:47:42.956 --> 0:47:45.036 We'd do four or five tunes in the day, just 0:47:45.076 --> 0:47:47.956 like two days for my day and wet Tuesday, you know. 0:47:48.556 --> 0:47:50.196 So the second day we'd come in and and the 0:47:50.316 --> 0:47:52.916 range cast me over. Said hey, hey, do you have 0:47:52.956 --> 0:47:54.956 a seat, And I said, I'm feeling pretty good. You know, 0:47:55.196 --> 0:47:58.556 now much talk? He said, you know? Uh, I like 0:47:58.636 --> 0:48:01.876 where you play, that's why you're here. But I like 0:48:01.956 --> 0:48:06.356 my baselines on our route. I said, well, well, so 0:48:06.356 --> 0:48:08.836 so I'm gonna gon do those songs again. Say I'll 0:48:08.836 --> 0:48:11.516 tell you one. I'll play your ship until you can't 0:48:11.556 --> 0:48:18.436 stand it, and then you tell me I'm free. So 0:48:18.476 --> 0:48:22.156 we did two, a few songs, he said free, and 0:48:22.196 --> 0:48:26.236 we became dear friends, I mean really dear friends. Yeah, 0:48:26.396 --> 0:48:32.796 to this day, nothing to tell you. But my point 0:48:33.156 --> 0:48:35.196 was I played what they want, and I have to 0:48:35.236 --> 0:48:37.116 trust that their judgment, that maybe I have a better 0:48:37.156 --> 0:48:38.316 idea to do it than they have. 0:48:39.236 --> 0:48:41.796 What about the times you're not so sure? I read 0:48:42.516 --> 0:48:45.196 or heard or read somewhere I can't remember now where 0:48:45.196 --> 0:48:46.996 I saw this or read it. Where you said the 0:48:46.996 --> 0:48:50.156 first time you played with Herbie that he was playing chords, 0:48:50.196 --> 0:48:52.716 you weren't quite sure what they were, and so then 0:48:52.756 --> 0:48:55.916 you weren't quite sure what you should be doing exactly 0:48:56.276 --> 0:48:56.796 just early on. 0:48:58.116 --> 0:49:03.436 Uh, I'm not sure that's quite an exact translation. I 0:49:03.436 --> 0:49:05.596 think what I might have kind of conveyed to the 0:49:05.756 --> 0:49:09.236 question or questionnaire was I know what he's doing, but 0:49:09.236 --> 0:49:11.156 I couldn't figure out the best note to make that work. 0:49:12.876 --> 0:49:15.716 And uh, I didn't understand that he trusted me that 0:49:15.796 --> 0:49:18.316 much that he would go with my way because he 0:49:18.356 --> 0:49:19.836 didn't know where I was going other than that it 0:49:19.876 --> 0:49:22.796 wasn't what he his way was. And at some point, 0:49:23.396 --> 0:49:27.156 without discussion the rehearsal, we decided it was decided that 0:49:27.556 --> 0:49:30.116 my way wasn't a bad way, and then it could 0:49:30.116 --> 0:49:31.916 work for everybody. 0:49:32.956 --> 0:49:35.796 So there was some conversation and dialogue in GM. 0:49:35.716 --> 0:49:37.436 But not not what people would think, you know. We 0:49:37.476 --> 0:49:40.276 didn't have sound with a blackboard and listened to ultimate 0:49:40.316 --> 0:49:42.716 texts and figured out what now that we. 0:49:42.636 --> 0:49:43.556 Had a life. 0:49:43.676 --> 0:49:46.916 Yeah, when the gig was over, Man Herbert just got married. 0:49:46.916 --> 0:49:49.556 It got a big record, very big record. Tony was 0:49:49.596 --> 0:49:51.836 living the stair at someone at Miles's house. I had 0:49:51.836 --> 0:49:54.196 this new family. I've gone home out doing other stuff 0:49:54.236 --> 0:49:58.596 other than Miles's band. There wasn't that kind of necessary 0:49:59.116 --> 0:50:03.676 additional time to feel that the band could do something 0:50:03.676 --> 0:50:07.876 that's really great, something really nice. Ultimately, it was a 0:50:07.876 --> 0:50:11.676 little past night, yes, but we didn't understand. I didn't 0:50:11.756 --> 0:50:15.116 understand the ramifications of what we were doing as we speak, 0:50:15.716 --> 0:50:20.596 you know, But again, our relationship was based on being 0:50:20.716 --> 0:50:24.036 wild for other guys night in. 0:50:24.556 --> 0:50:25.236 And man out. 0:50:26.956 --> 0:50:31.476 There's There was a compilation of put out kind of 0:50:31.476 --> 0:50:33.556 recently handful of years ago, made five years ago called 0:50:33.636 --> 0:50:37.396 Bootleg five. It was a Miles Davis re release and 0:50:37.436 --> 0:50:42.236 as a bunch of session as a bunch of recordings 0:50:42.236 --> 0:50:44.156 of you guys talking in between in the. 0:50:44.116 --> 0:50:44.636 Studio and. 0:50:48.876 --> 0:50:51.316 Uh, it's it's you can tell listening to it that 0:50:51.316 --> 0:50:54.796 you guys weren't one hundred aware of what you were 0:50:55.556 --> 0:50:58.156 contributing to the world of music because it was all 0:50:58.276 --> 0:50:59.196 very casual, you know. 0:50:59.396 --> 0:51:02.076 Well, I think what I hope that people would understand 0:51:02.436 --> 0:51:06.956 from that particular set of records discs is that while 0:51:07.076 --> 0:51:11.796 Miles was the band of leader, he was not leading 0:51:11.796 --> 0:51:15.596 the band. He took information from everybody. He said, what 0:51:15.676 --> 0:51:18.316 about this, or don't do that? Try to He was 0:51:18.596 --> 0:51:22.916 open to any suggestions. We thought they would make not 0:51:22.956 --> 0:51:27.116 just the music different, but absolve him from the responsibility 0:51:27.116 --> 0:51:31.756 of making everything happen, you know, not that he couldn't, 0:51:31.836 --> 0:51:34.076 not that he had did, but with this select bunch 0:51:34.116 --> 0:51:39.876 of four other guys, they relieved him of that sole 0:51:39.996 --> 0:51:45.716 responsibility of being not just the band leader, but leading 0:51:45.716 --> 0:51:46.036 the band. 0:51:46.276 --> 0:51:47.556 It's like a good basketball team. 0:51:47.596 --> 0:51:50.156 The band was leading him and he understood that all 0:51:50.196 --> 0:51:51.636 you got to do is man is be able to 0:51:51.676 --> 0:51:54.276 hit a set shot and take you stand over there, 0:51:54.476 --> 0:51:55.396 it's coming your way. 0:51:58.116 --> 0:52:01.556 And t o too here. And it seemed like TiO Maceo, yeah, 0:52:01.556 --> 0:52:03.756 would produce it. Like you know, he was involved quite 0:52:03.756 --> 0:52:04.156 a bit too. 0:52:04.436 --> 0:52:06.556 He was kind of having kind of kind of control 0:52:06.596 --> 0:52:11.956 on some of the stuff and and and uh uh 0:52:09.436 --> 0:52:15.996 uh budget. You know, it was time they had. He 0:52:16.076 --> 0:52:17.756 wanted to make sure that everyone got back on time 0:52:17.796 --> 0:52:19.596 from going out to get the drink or going out 0:52:19.596 --> 0:52:23.516 to scent get lunch. Uh. He was kind of the 0:52:23.516 --> 0:52:27.596 that the uh, the guy with the card that was 0:52:27.636 --> 0:52:31.156 into the time machine you call that thing pushed the car. Yeah, 0:52:31.236 --> 0:52:34.036 and he was the guy who organized the dates, book 0:52:34.076 --> 0:52:37.196 the studio, time was there for the mixing. He did 0:52:37.236 --> 0:52:38.196 all that kind of stuff. 0:52:38.916 --> 0:52:39.196 Uh. 0:52:39.356 --> 0:52:41.316 He's a good composer. You know. I think we played 0:52:41.316 --> 0:52:43.036 a good sex one at one time, and that was 0:52:43.076 --> 0:52:44.036 on one of this projects. 0:52:44.036 --> 0:52:45.036 I had fun. Yeah. 0:52:45.316 --> 0:52:48.756 Uh seeing how he was the leader for a change 0:52:48.916 --> 0:52:50.996 because he wasn't no leader with milesers Man. He was. 0:52:51.036 --> 0:52:53.276 He was the guy who was part of the process. 0:52:53.916 --> 0:52:58.156 Now he's the guy who's dictating the tatoon, the temple, 0:52:58.316 --> 0:53:00.796 the key, all that stuff. It's interesting to see him 0:53:01.196 --> 0:53:05.516 no longer be the guy hiding behind the curtain of 0:53:05.636 --> 0:53:08.956 the or the glass. Now he's on the other side, 0:53:09.316 --> 0:53:11.596 you know. And he understood a whole another level of 0:53:11.596 --> 0:53:13.676 it that takes something that happened. I appreciated that. 0:53:16.116 --> 0:53:20.156 ESP was produced by Irving Townsend, right what did they did? 0:53:20.196 --> 0:53:21.436 My nmsel a falling out. 0:53:21.396 --> 0:53:24.676 With I have no idea. I never knew little details, 0:53:24.876 --> 0:53:29.516 and I didn't really care to know them, you know, 0:53:29.676 --> 0:53:33.996 and only not that it isn't I didn't care. I 0:53:34.036 --> 0:53:38.796 was more concerned with I think guys, can the man 0:53:38.956 --> 0:53:44.196 hear where I'm going sooner? H And then can I 0:53:44.276 --> 0:53:47.916 remember a nice thing I did on the first set? 0:53:48.876 --> 0:53:52.236 To do it for the third set tomorrow night and 0:53:52.276 --> 0:53:55.436 see how many guys pick up on it? And to 0:53:55.556 --> 0:53:57.956 that end, I have a book come out of the 0:53:57.956 --> 0:54:03.556 public company called uh Tratography, and this book is written 0:54:03.596 --> 0:54:07.836 out scores. What is what we have done is transcribe 0:54:08.836 --> 0:54:12.636 five different performances of the same song, the same band 0:54:13.156 --> 0:54:18.076 perfect laboratory, so cool, and and it transcribes my basic 0:54:18.116 --> 0:54:20.836 line for two and a half courses. How it changes 0:54:20.876 --> 0:54:25.036 for the side performances, but how the band as still 0:54:25.076 --> 0:54:28.876 what I'm playing, and that's what we did live every 0:54:28.956 --> 0:54:29.516 night man. 0:54:29.396 --> 0:54:32.236 Because it's not just a static baseline, No, it's. 0:54:32.196 --> 0:54:35.676 Every night it's something new based on this process, based 0:54:35.716 --> 0:54:41.876 on this germ. Now every night you water it. Yeah, 0:54:41.156 --> 0:54:42.316 how how. 0:54:42.196 --> 0:54:45.956 Do you clear your mind of so that you're not 0:54:46.916 --> 0:54:50.356 repeating what you did the night before, but moving it forward. 0:54:52.436 --> 0:54:54.916 I'll tell you something happened to me recently. I played 0:54:54.916 --> 0:54:57.516 a gig in Detroit a couple of weeks ago, and 0:54:57.756 --> 0:54:59.716 it was good to see all these folks. People I 0:54:59.756 --> 0:55:02.076 went to elementary school came and they were all there 0:55:02.116 --> 0:55:04.796 before the show, and then we went out to play, 0:55:04.836 --> 0:55:08.036 and I realized, I'm completely I'm prepared to play the show. 0:55:08.076 --> 0:55:11.716 And it took me fifteen minutes to get in a 0:55:11.796 --> 0:55:17.036 proper headspace to just be inventive and to let go. 0:55:18.196 --> 0:55:22.796 I'm curious about the balance of again, like following that 0:55:22.916 --> 0:55:26.156 seed you're talking about planting, but also being spontaneous. 0:55:26.436 --> 0:55:28.396 One of the things that I try to do down 0:55:29.036 --> 0:55:36.676 is kind of have a line between them and me 0:55:37.716 --> 0:55:43.156 and just me. You know. You know we've had times 0:55:43.396 --> 0:55:46.316 they've been stuff's going on right now it's difficult to 0:55:46.356 --> 0:55:50.276 turn off the news, yeah and go to work because 0:55:50.316 --> 0:55:55.316 the news is so so in motion consuming, man, you know. 0:55:55.796 --> 0:55:58.276 And I say that because I feel like I'm getting 0:55:58.316 --> 0:56:02.276 like this right now, just thinking about trouble, the trouble, 0:56:02.316 --> 0:56:05.556 the difficult times we're in, and I know I got 0:56:05.556 --> 0:56:07.996 to go play a threell next week with a coin 0:56:08.316 --> 0:56:10.116 I've got to put. This film is a signed long 0:56:10.236 --> 0:56:12.516 enough to do what immine hopes I can do for 0:56:12.556 --> 0:56:19.036 the band and my devices. Guys, it changes from how 0:56:19.756 --> 0:56:23.236 swept up I allow me to get in this over here. 0:56:24.356 --> 0:56:28.196 You know, there have been times when this part has 0:56:28.236 --> 0:56:31.836 been so emotional for me that it bleeds over into 0:56:32.236 --> 0:56:35.476 the first set of who I'm working with. Most of 0:56:35.476 --> 0:56:40.276 the groups work with can't understand that issue because they 0:56:40.316 --> 0:56:43.916 have it also, you know, and they would like to 0:56:43.916 --> 0:56:46.916 think that the band over here, they're strong enough in 0:56:46.996 --> 0:56:50.476 their personal beliefs or they're saying to kind of let 0:56:50.516 --> 0:56:54.916 this not be so important to their performance here, but 0:56:55.316 --> 0:56:58.036 still color it because it's part of the emotional life 0:56:58.036 --> 0:57:01.396 they're living. You know, I did a record call when 0:57:01.436 --> 0:57:05.036 skys are Gray come my first blat and jazz record 0:57:05.076 --> 0:57:09.036 that that really is nice record. Harvey and Mason, Steve Crouhan, 0:57:09.436 --> 0:57:14.836 Steven Scott on a Monday, the Sunday before I had 0:57:14.876 --> 0:57:18.476 done a memorial for my late wife, and these guys 0:57:18.556 --> 0:57:22.516 understood what I was literally I was coming from. And 0:57:25.356 --> 0:57:28.476 to say they had my back is kind of crude, crude, 0:57:29.396 --> 0:57:32.276 And it wasn't that they had not back. They just 0:57:32.316 --> 0:57:36.476 had my sensitivitiy or tuned up so high that you 0:57:36.516 --> 0:57:39.996 know that they trusted my choice. If they would want 0:57:39.996 --> 0:57:43.756 to argue, they had said, no, it's not the right time. Yeah, God, 0:57:43.796 --> 0:57:46.156 trust this guy because he's hearing some stuff over here. 0:57:48.356 --> 0:57:54.636 They help me maintain a separation of this event and 0:57:54.716 --> 0:58:01.356 this performance. Your friends out there, they don't understand how 0:58:01.596 --> 0:58:05.996 they have impacted. Your choice is over here. Only you 0:58:06.076 --> 0:58:12.076 understand that you plural have to understand that they don't 0:58:12.156 --> 0:58:15.276 know the difference. They don't know you have choices they 0:58:15.356 --> 0:58:18.156 and there's no year there m They will accept by 0:58:18.196 --> 0:58:21.956 and large what you give them because they expect you 0:58:22.036 --> 0:58:25.796 to give them a good menu. Your job is to 0:58:25.796 --> 0:58:29.236 pick the menu and what things you wanna really serve 0:58:29.316 --> 0:58:32.116 them that you're really comfortable with, given their tastes are 0:58:32.156 --> 0:58:37.396 not sophisticated. I mean that can give you y. You 0:58:37.396 --> 0:58:39.076 don't get them a test that's over there that you 0:58:39.156 --> 0:58:42.676 me do this. I that's no. You wanna have them 0:58:42.796 --> 0:58:45.876 lead this gig to me to hurt our friend Don 0:58:46.196 --> 0:58:48.276 that hadn't hurt in a very long time. He sounded wonderful. 0:58:49.236 --> 0:58:51.276 Your job is given them right things from this menu. 0:58:52.196 --> 0:58:55.396 So you gotta turn this off, turn this down h 0:58:55.476 --> 0:58:59.476 long enough to be able to fulfill your responsibility to them. Also, 0:58:59.636 --> 0:59:05.836 these guys, M it is not that it is not 0:59:05.876 --> 0:59:09.276 an easy thing to do, you know, and and know 0:59:09.396 --> 0:59:14.916 that we're confronted with these two emotions daily. M. It's 0:59:14.916 --> 0:59:20.116 something that we all quietly fight. We all quietly, uh 0:59:21.916 --> 0:59:24.356 try to find a balance. Now somehow we don't. We 0:59:24.876 --> 0:59:30.276 musicians don't really discuss this kind of process that we 0:59:30.476 --> 0:59:33.156 use because we have an image of ourselves being kind 0:59:33.156 --> 0:59:36.076 of above the fray. You know, you feel that you 0:59:36.156 --> 0:59:39.556 feel down, Let's play the blues whatever things. We're kind 0:59:39.556 --> 0:59:43.676 of kind of given, uh more credit than is due 0:59:44.156 --> 0:59:46.316 of maybe a pull over inst about these doul drums, 0:59:46.356 --> 0:59:49.876 you know, I mean we love the imagery of being 0:59:49.876 --> 0:59:54.276 a guy who does this, you know, and the fact 0:59:54.276 --> 0:59:56.756 that the band is doing this because they're following your lead. 0:59:57.116 --> 0:59:59.716 You've got to accept that responsibility and take care of it. 0:59:59.756 --> 1:00:01.796 Man, do give rituals. 1:00:03.476 --> 1:00:05.236 I try to have quiet before I go to work. 1:00:06.756 --> 1:00:08.556 My tech guy didn't understand that. 1:00:08.596 --> 1:00:08.956 At first. 1:00:09.196 --> 1:00:10.916 We were driving. He picks me up, you know, drive 1:00:11.396 --> 1:00:14.796 turn the music. I'm not turning music off, No, no, no, 1:00:15.356 --> 1:00:17.516 I just need to clear my head from these things 1:00:17.556 --> 1:00:18.516 that are in a way. 1:00:19.316 --> 1:00:19.436 You know. 1:00:19.436 --> 1:00:21.516 I don't listen to music from come nowhere. I drive 1:00:21.556 --> 1:00:25.076 to my car, turn the music off like a sponge man. 1:00:25.196 --> 1:00:25.756 We all are. 1:00:27.116 --> 1:00:32.036 Everything affects us. I try to limit those affecting events 1:00:32.156 --> 1:00:35.876 as much as I can to to it. No music 1:00:35.916 --> 1:00:38.156 in the car, don't talk to me. Talk to me 1:00:38.196 --> 1:00:41.156 after the set because I'm still here and what I'm 1:00:41.156 --> 1:00:43.316 trying to do for this next hour and a half. 1:00:44.156 --> 1:00:47.316 And then make some strange looks occasionally, and then some 1:00:47.316 --> 1:00:51.436 people get offended, and I'm sorry that they feel that way, 1:00:52.676 --> 1:00:54.516 but as much better to feel that way. And now 1:00:55.156 --> 1:00:57.076 didn't feel that way this way because I didn't do 1:00:57.116 --> 1:00:57.476 my job. 1:00:59.516 --> 1:01:01.436 You do you find by taking that much time to 1:01:01.476 --> 1:01:04.956 sort of before before you go to work, to clear 1:01:04.996 --> 1:01:07.956 your head and kind of adjust your intent, so to speak. 1:01:08.676 --> 1:01:11.196 But does that create any anxiety as well? 1:01:11.276 --> 1:01:15.796 Like is it I'm there because I belong there? Anything 1:01:15.836 --> 1:01:19.796 in any anxiety may have maybe that someone touched the 1:01:19.836 --> 1:01:23.876 baseball office out there, someone food with the knobs, you know, 1:01:24.476 --> 1:01:30.476 physical things that I can't control and I accept, you know, Uh, 1:01:30.756 --> 1:01:32.956 well it cracks me up. Man. When we were at 1:01:32.956 --> 1:01:37.516 the club called Sweet Basil, uh seventh Avenues down and downtown, 1:01:38.276 --> 1:01:40.556 the way we were set up, the audience had to 1:01:40.636 --> 1:01:45.796 walk by the bandstand to get to the restroom, and 1:01:45.956 --> 1:01:48.556 invariably on the animation someone wo walked by going to 1:01:48.596 --> 1:01:53.276 the bathroom and hit the cymbals or do you like 1:01:53.276 --> 1:01:56.036 to hold the piano? They had to see what they 1:01:56.036 --> 1:01:57.996 had to They had to had to be a part 1:01:58.036 --> 1:02:04.476 of the thing, man, you know, and uh yeah, you're 1:02:04.476 --> 1:02:06.996 not a part of this. You're a part of this 1:02:08.396 --> 1:02:11.076 part of the equation. Yeah, yeah, you get the guy 1:02:11.196 --> 1:02:12.356 draws the line, you know. 1:02:15.716 --> 1:02:19.556 When you you mentioned like physical distractions, do you ever 1:02:19.596 --> 1:02:22.316 find you you've been playing the same base for decades, right, 1:02:22.396 --> 1:02:27.036 sixty years? Does it feel different like another instrument some nights? Yes, 1:02:27.516 --> 1:02:30.956 what is that? Well, you know, the base is a box. 1:02:31.076 --> 1:02:34.636 It's a box, a wooden box that's held together, that's 1:02:34.636 --> 1:02:38.556 separated by a stick. It's called sound most about that 1:02:38.636 --> 1:02:40.756 sound post. It would do like this just because the 1:02:40.756 --> 1:02:43.876 pressure of the strings. It's also the fact that the 1:02:43.956 --> 1:02:51.876 weather it affects the basis expanding contraction a small, small degree. 1:02:51.996 --> 1:02:53.716 But you feel in the strains got off someome. You 1:02:53.756 --> 1:02:57.716 get tighter, you know, the certain gigs that I don't do. 1:02:58.876 --> 1:03:04.596 Because the bases land for an hour between sets and 1:03:04.676 --> 1:03:08.636 a window and the windows kind of cold air, it's 1:03:08.636 --> 1:03:11.436 gonna pick up the base. The base is literally freezing. 1:03:12.996 --> 1:03:16.076 And now that turn the heat on. Now the base 1:03:16.116 --> 1:03:18.636 which whitch got which got this way because there's been 1:03:18.636 --> 1:03:23.396 cold there? And that goes like this and my hands, 1:03:23.556 --> 1:03:25.956 my hands no difference right away, said oh man, I 1:03:26.036 --> 1:03:28.236 got to play harder because the strings are so tight. 1:03:28.316 --> 1:03:31.876 Now because of this, you know, my body's warm. The 1:03:31.996 --> 1:03:35.996 lights are on. All these factors change the instruments physical 1:03:36.036 --> 1:03:41.436 response because it's going like this ever so slightly. And 1:03:41.516 --> 1:03:43.756 as they do this, the strings go higher as well. 1:03:43.916 --> 1:03:45.876 You know they they stand there, but the strings are 1:03:45.916 --> 1:03:48.476 moving just because this activity is going on. You know, 1:03:49.836 --> 1:03:52.236 and it's always you know all it's just cracked me up, man, 1:03:52.276 --> 1:03:54.276 and said, we go offrom the parking lot to the bandstand, 1:03:55.236 --> 1:03:57.556 there have no chance to get warmed up, so to speak. 1:03:57.876 --> 1:04:00.796 The bass didn't been walked into four blocks and in 1:04:00.836 --> 1:04:03.316 the rain going to the gig, you know, going to 1:04:03.596 --> 1:04:07.156 literally to the bandstand, you know, and uh, but that's 1:04:07.236 --> 1:04:10.236 kind of the physical thing real we're we were looking 1:04:10.796 --> 1:04:13.516 in every night, and I think the most we can 1:04:13.596 --> 1:04:16.716 do is to be aware of there certain things we 1:04:16.756 --> 1:04:20.036 can't control. We've got to be aware of that it's happening. 1:04:20.076 --> 1:04:22.796 Though we can't say I didn't know what that. I 1:04:23.156 --> 1:04:25.236 don't know what happened. How can you not know? Man? 1:04:25.316 --> 1:04:27.356 You just walk four blocks in the rain, there was snow, 1:04:28.116 --> 1:04:30.836 the basis cold, the heat's on on the badstand. How 1:04:30.836 --> 1:04:34.036 could you not know that's going to affect this box 1:04:34.596 --> 1:04:37.196 some kind of way. I think if they understood that, 1:04:37.236 --> 1:04:41.076 they will have a less a little lower level of frustration, 1:04:42.156 --> 1:04:43.956 and they would play it different because they understand they 1:04:44.036 --> 1:04:46.156 got it. They warmed up, as the bass does physically 1:04:46.196 --> 1:04:46.916 as well. 1:04:49.316 --> 1:04:53.596 When you play in a theater, and especially with modern 1:04:53.876 --> 1:04:58.076 sound systems, where they got the subwolfers projecting out the 1:04:58.076 --> 1:05:00.596 thing and it comes bouncing back at you, and the 1:05:00.676 --> 1:05:05.316 drums come bouncing back at your thirty milliseconds later. How 1:05:05.316 --> 1:05:06.116 do you deal with that? 1:05:06.876 --> 1:05:08.636 Well, I try to have the band not rely on 1:05:08.676 --> 1:05:13.556 that relies so singly on the they all those things, 1:05:13.996 --> 1:05:16.956 the monitors. Yeah, yeah, I want them to guy and 1:05:17.036 --> 1:05:19.356 rely us. Must they can on what they hear immediately. 1:05:20.396 --> 1:05:24.676 If I can get them to trust the band's sound 1:05:25.516 --> 1:05:29.676 without this other stuff, this delay of the beat doesn't 1:05:30.316 --> 1:05:32.916 take them so far out, so to speak. You know, 1:05:33.356 --> 1:05:36.276 when you have your own monitors, guys, I think each 1:05:36.356 --> 1:05:46.996 guy once says loud like it's just them more hard practice, piano, 1:05:47.076 --> 1:05:50.716 soft pedal that you know. 1:05:50.956 --> 1:05:55.316 Yeah, let's shift up from one said. You mentioned Tayo Macero. 1:05:55.836 --> 1:05:59.996 You've worked with all the great producers, the legendary producers. 1:06:00.036 --> 1:06:04.596 You Creed Taylor, you worked with Bob Field, Alfred Lyon. 1:06:05.516 --> 1:06:09.316 I'm wondering, you know, from a Blue Note perspect to 1:06:09.356 --> 1:06:13.316 certainly what made Alfred's records different. You happen to be 1:06:13.636 --> 1:06:17.876 on the best records that I think are in our catalog, 1:06:17.996 --> 1:06:21.236 from Speaking No Evil and Maiden Voyage and stuff with 1:06:21.396 --> 1:06:24.516 Bobby Hutcherson, Real McCoy, all all the things she did 1:06:24.596 --> 1:06:29.356 with McCoy. The players changed, but you're on all of 1:06:29.396 --> 1:06:34.716 the best records. I think that's a strong testimony as 1:06:34.756 --> 1:06:38.036 a like working with Alfred as opposed to other producers. 1:06:38.356 --> 1:06:46.156 Alfred understood just a feeling, he would say, it's got 1:06:46.156 --> 1:06:49.716 to say, it's got to say. He understood that emotion. 1:06:50.356 --> 1:06:52.316 He didn't know anything else, by anything else. He didn't 1:06:52.356 --> 1:06:54.836 know notes. He couldn't really know that he hit him 1:06:54.836 --> 1:06:58.996 in the head on the subway, but he knew that 1:06:59.276 --> 1:07:03.676 this thing didn't have the element he recognized. And the 1:07:03.796 --> 1:07:10.396 band who understood how little Alfred knew about music. He 1:07:10.516 --> 1:07:15.396 understood this primals, that God work, this this primal instinct 1:07:15.436 --> 1:07:19.596 of swing. And when he said that, the band just 1:07:19.596 --> 1:07:23.076 stopped in their heads, detegrating this guy and understood that 1:07:23.156 --> 1:07:25.996 he was telling them that this stuff is not happening 1:07:26.036 --> 1:07:28.556 because he can't feel it, and that's all he has 1:07:28.636 --> 1:07:31.356 to tell him. And that was important to the bands. 1:07:31.956 --> 1:07:34.756 All of those guys, man, all of them will say, 1:07:34.756 --> 1:07:38.756 oh yeah, okay. The fact that he said that he 1:07:38.916 --> 1:07:43.876 understood his limitations were telling them that wherever they were 1:07:44.716 --> 1:07:45.956 it was the wrong place for this. 1:07:48.356 --> 1:07:50.396 Because he he wasn't intrusive, then. 1:07:51.836 --> 1:07:53.636 Helps him. He made sure we had lunch before, He 1:07:53.676 --> 1:07:57.396 made sure that that's what the physical details and maybe 1:07:57.516 --> 1:08:00.676 maybe maybe rehearsal sometimes there was none, you know. 1:08:01.396 --> 1:08:01.756 Uh. 1:08:01.836 --> 1:08:05.276 His his his ability to put together the best set 1:08:05.316 --> 1:08:08.076 of guys was another. It was a whole different kind 1:08:08.116 --> 1:08:12.796 of skill that most producers don't have. Forever reason, you know, 1:08:13.156 --> 1:08:15.516 my favorite player, but does he sound good with this guy? 1:08:15.676 --> 1:08:18.516 Or who's gonna pull this state together? Who can we 1:08:18.596 --> 1:08:21.556 trust to be the lynch pin? You know, who's gonna 1:08:22.196 --> 1:08:27.436 those He had that sense of combinations that a lot 1:08:27.476 --> 1:08:30.636 of producers don't happen to have. For another set of reasons. 1:08:30.396 --> 1:08:33.676 M you know it's a casting director. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, 1:08:33.716 --> 1:08:38.076 that's a big skill. Yeah who w wh Which producers 1:08:38.396 --> 1:08:40.356 do you think? What with the the best th th 1:08:40.516 --> 1:08:41.316 that she worked. 1:08:41.116 --> 1:08:43.956 Was fit almost too many of the name cause y 1:08:44.036 --> 1:08:46.076 you never know who they are until it's all over. 1:08:46.356 --> 1:08:46.596 Yeah. 1:08:47.116 --> 1:08:49.636 And and unless I hear the the to foind a product, 1:08:50.396 --> 1:08:52.836 I I don't have that chance to track down most 1:08:52.836 --> 1:08:53.436 of those sayings. 1:08:53.476 --> 1:08:53.636 So I do. 1:08:53.756 --> 1:08:56.156 I don't know who did their job better than somebody 1:08:56.156 --> 1:08:59.356 else did. That's the other that's the courtion right now. Yeah, yeah, uh, 1:08:59.396 --> 1:09:01.276 I just think that that they would call me for 1:09:01.316 --> 1:09:03.196 their projects. They thought I could be a guy who 1:09:03.196 --> 1:09:06.236 could help them do something that they thought they wanted. Yeah, 1:09:06.396 --> 1:09:10.156 and I admire that skill. I admire them. Haven't heard 1:09:10.236 --> 1:09:11.716 enough music during that kind of choice. 1:09:12.916 --> 1:09:15.636 Duke Pearson was another person who was important at Blue 1:09:15.716 --> 1:09:17.996 Note and was a player, but also. 1:09:18.476 --> 1:09:19.396 He also play trumpet. 1:09:19.476 --> 1:09:22.596 Man played, Yeah, great player, but also produced records. Yea, 1:09:23.876 --> 1:09:24.636 how was he as a. 1:09:25.516 --> 1:09:29.396 He he's a player who knew how to produce, not 1:09:29.516 --> 1:09:31.476 the producer who played a little bit. That's not a 1:09:31.556 --> 1:09:36.356 bit different. Yeah, and he played good too. By the way, 1:09:36.876 --> 1:09:39.436 my footnote of that story is that Oran was trying 1:09:39.436 --> 1:09:41.236 to get him to make he wanted to make one 1:09:41.316 --> 1:09:43.636 more record. He moved on to Atlanta and all that 1:09:43.716 --> 1:09:49.676 kind of stuff, and I was working in California, and 1:09:49.756 --> 1:09:51.876 I ended up in Berkeley, which is where the Fantasy 1:09:51.916 --> 1:09:55.436 Studio was a nice studio man and the good engineered 1:09:55.476 --> 1:09:59.596 Jim Starn And and somehow Duke was ailing. But I 1:09:59.636 --> 1:10:02.556 didn't understand that, and I think Orn didn't understand that either, 1:10:03.436 --> 1:10:05.876 because no one really said why he was ailing, but 1:10:06.036 --> 1:10:08.716 what it was. And then they come up to much later. 1:10:09.276 --> 1:10:11.636 And anyway, Duke finally got got some kind we got 1:10:11.676 --> 1:10:14.316 to California for this recording session with me and him. 1:10:14.396 --> 1:10:17.076 You know, cause Duke has did a lot of duels 1:10:17.116 --> 1:10:18.876 in New York when he was in New York and 1:10:19.076 --> 1:10:22.796 Bradley's the the Lions here whatever they were, he kind 1:10:22.836 --> 1:10:25.156 of had them hire me and him to do a 1:10:25.236 --> 1:10:31.516 duel thing. Bradley's uh nick a blocker. I Anyway, when 1:10:31.596 --> 1:10:34.036 Duke finally got out to the to California to make 1:10:34.116 --> 1:10:36.476 this record, we were I was working at night with 1:10:36.516 --> 1:10:39.036 who maybe my band, but I was at free during 1:10:39.036 --> 1:10:41.436 the day. So we spent two or three days all 1:10:41.556 --> 1:10:45.556 day hoping Duke would feel better enough to complete the 1:10:45.716 --> 1:10:49.236 tune or something. You know. Uh, I'm not sure it 1:10:49.356 --> 1:10:52.356 had on our efforts. You know, ultimately he passed away 1:10:52.356 --> 1:10:56.916 from multiple scrosses who understood, but no one nailed that 1:10:57.116 --> 1:11:00.436 as the cause of him having the physical dift of 1:11:00.516 --> 1:11:03.636 the physical difficulties he was experiencing. And maybe I'm just 1:11:03.676 --> 1:11:06.436 repeating the room I heard. I'm not sure, but ultimately 1:11:06.516 --> 1:11:09.076 he couldn't finish cause he was in so much discomfort. 1:11:09.196 --> 1:11:09.276 It. 1:11:09.956 --> 1:11:14.116 Uh, but what what a you know, even the names 1:11:14.116 --> 1:11:16.516 of the people who I knew who are who are 1:11:16.556 --> 1:11:18.996 no longer. I call him left the concert and I 1:11:19.036 --> 1:11:21.996 look around, man, and and I'm the when the last 1:11:21.996 --> 1:11:25.316 guy's standing, and it's just I just get chills thinking 1:11:25.356 --> 1:11:29.676 that I can't count on those guys to be there 1:11:29.956 --> 1:11:32.436 wherever there is, you know, I can't count on those 1:11:32.436 --> 1:11:35.116 guys to call him up and say every birthday, you know, 1:11:35.916 --> 1:11:38.076 or I can't count those guys say now you stop that, 1:11:38.316 --> 1:11:40.836 get out of here. Come on, as I've been known 1:11:40.876 --> 1:11:42.956 to say, the guys who are getting in my nerve, 1:11:43.156 --> 1:11:45.556 you know, my last nerve. As a matter of fact, 1:11:46.436 --> 1:11:47.276 I miss those guys. 1:11:47.316 --> 1:11:47.476 Man. 1:11:48.356 --> 1:11:50.436 I'm some guys saying, man, how did you do that? 1:11:52.316 --> 1:11:55.156 And I can't hear that from those guys, a lot 1:11:55.196 --> 1:11:59.156 of them, so subject it calls me to sit back 1:11:59.196 --> 1:12:04.356 and reflect on uh lonjevity. 1:12:04.796 --> 1:12:06.236 Do you do you do you call a lot of 1:12:06.236 --> 1:12:08.436 your old friends that are still around Sonny Rollins or 1:12:08.476 --> 1:12:09.076 Herbie Hancock. 1:12:09.356 --> 1:12:12.436 Yes, yeah, I just feel the spirits. Okay, I call 1:12:12.516 --> 1:12:15.716 those guys, you know, I talk. I call that called 1:12:15.876 --> 1:12:18.876 h A couple of guys doing their birthday and I 1:12:18.956 --> 1:12:21.076 just have your birthday for him, you know, And it 1:12:21.636 --> 1:12:23.516 tracks him up that I was stopped. Of course I 1:12:23.596 --> 1:12:24.276 was stopping my day. 1:12:24.356 --> 1:12:24.516 Man. 1:12:24.556 --> 1:12:28.596 He's not that important in my life. Come on, it is, 1:12:29.516 --> 1:12:30.636 that'stuff whatever it is, you know. 1:12:31.516 --> 1:12:38.956 G let's talk about Wayne for a second. Yeah, one 1:12:38.956 --> 1:12:41.116 of the kind. Yeah, how do you think about him? 1:12:41.356 --> 1:12:42.876 How do you think about playing with him? 1:12:42.956 --> 1:12:46.276 And when I first met Wayne, he was playing with 1:12:46.276 --> 1:12:51.756 manon Fergus's band and uh his friends second tend I guess, 1:12:51.796 --> 1:12:55.916 I don't know, doing them doing occasional arrangements, you know. Uh, 1:12:55.996 --> 1:12:58.116 that's my first meeting with him. And also later I 1:12:58.196 --> 1:13:01.036 met his brother Alan, who played a little bit trumpet, 1:13:01.076 --> 1:13:02.836 you know, when they won the Avant guarde guys at 1:13:02.876 --> 1:13:08.676 the time when not travel with the psop or Miles 1:13:08.756 --> 1:13:11.636 is bad. My My my job was to do two things. 1:13:12.636 --> 1:13:18.076 Not let Wayne buy too many books and uh kind 1:13:18.076 --> 1:13:20.956 of translated what he said to the interviewer, you know 1:13:21.916 --> 1:13:25.556 an and uh Wayne left at both of those jobs. 1:13:25.756 --> 1:13:29.316 You know, He's gonna buy his books and he's gonna 1:13:29.316 --> 1:13:32.676 say what he's gonna say, you know, and he's gonna 1:13:32.716 --> 1:13:34.636 also write what he could write. And it's just a 1:13:34.676 --> 1:13:38.876 g a great writer man. Yeah, he he I think 1:13:38.916 --> 1:13:45.236 he understood, n not that the guys didn't. He understood 1:13:46.556 --> 1:13:53.476 that the base sound was important, not specifically the note choice, 1:13:54.356 --> 1:13:57.036 but of course that's part of it. M that's a B, 1:13:57.276 --> 1:14:03.716 that's a not specifically to rhythm or not specifically maintain 1:14:03.836 --> 1:14:07.156 the forum. He thought for him, the sound of the 1:14:07.156 --> 1:14:11.036 base was so important that they made the band work 1:14:11.076 --> 1:14:15.356 for him, if for another reason because of that, the 1:14:15.396 --> 1:14:18.036 others were important to him. He wrote, stuffs off them. 1:14:18.196 --> 1:14:21.716 They're kind of changes, different kind of form, different temple. 1:14:22.276 --> 1:14:24.756 Of course they were important to him, but for him 1:14:25.196 --> 1:14:28.236 that song was critical to his being in the band. 1:14:28.636 --> 1:14:30.036 And critical to his compositions. 1:14:30.116 --> 1:14:34.476 And t Wayne to Wayne, two more questions and I'm 1:14:34.516 --> 1:14:36.356 getting emotional hairs and that's kind. 1:14:36.196 --> 1:14:44.076 Of okay, let's talk Let's talk about let's talk about 1:14:44.916 --> 1:14:49.116 Ron Curter. Universe is one of the most remarkable things. 1:14:49.676 --> 1:14:55.076 Amazing. Yeah you said that too, Yeah, ask me how 1:14:55.116 --> 1:14:58.196 they did it all. I can tell you, man that 1:14:58.276 --> 1:15:02.556 people came by two nights ago with found at seventy 1:15:02.596 --> 1:15:08.836 five more records to the universe. Yeah, I'm just stunned. 1:15:08.916 --> 1:15:10.676 And this guy that's got that kind of like, guys, 1:15:10.716 --> 1:15:14.676 who's you see them? The pizza shop just being guys. 1:15:15.396 --> 1:15:19.436 But to be able to conceive of that and and 1:15:19.436 --> 1:15:22.476 and put that in the form that it can be 1:15:22.996 --> 1:15:26.916 added to as you discover them just mind boggling. 1:15:26.996 --> 1:15:27.196 Man. 1:15:27.596 --> 1:15:30.436 People should check it out. It's it's a Ron Carter 1:15:30.596 --> 1:15:34.156 universe if you if you search Ron Carter Universe dot com. Yeah, 1:15:35.076 --> 1:15:38.236 and then the club I spelled the form are in 1:15:39.116 --> 1:15:40.716 dot com. 1:15:40.756 --> 1:15:40.996 You know. 1:15:42.316 --> 1:15:42.476 Yeah. 1:15:42.476 --> 1:15:43.796 It's just stunning, man. 1:15:44.156 --> 1:15:46.476 Yeah, and I mean every I was going to say 1:15:46.476 --> 1:15:47.996 it would be great if everybody could do it, but 1:15:48.036 --> 1:15:51.436 everybody can't do it because you've played on so many records. 1:15:50.876 --> 1:15:55.516 No one's got that kind of repertoire or the discography 1:15:55.676 --> 1:16:00.476 where but I could spend hours on it. 1:16:00.516 --> 1:16:03.996 And the more you find, the more other combinations you find, 1:16:04.076 --> 1:16:07.396 the personalities and what record this is on the dates 1:16:07.396 --> 1:16:10.036 and you get to a ten second on YouTube. But 1:16:10.076 --> 1:16:14.516 it it just Yeah. Fortunately, you know, when I talk 1:16:14.596 --> 1:16:16.716 to guys, I'm standing up otherwise so far off my 1:16:16.716 --> 1:16:19.316 head sitting down. Let's say you guys be quiet. 1:16:22.396 --> 1:16:24.356 And l le let's also talk about all the all 1:16:24.356 --> 1:16:28.476 the books you write. Y, you're a great educator, mentor figure. 1:16:29.076 --> 1:16:32.036 Well, Y, you know, I I think my age group 1:16:32.076 --> 1:16:37.036 has responsibility, so that the next generation doesn't realize that 1:16:37.956 --> 1:16:41.796 these people before them really impacted what they're trying to 1:16:41.836 --> 1:16:45.316 do now, you know, And and I think, what what 1:16:45.436 --> 1:16:48.596 what I've tried to do with my books, especially to 1:16:48.636 --> 1:16:51.436 the bass players, gave them my head start on what 1:16:51.516 --> 1:16:55.916 it takes, what tools it takes to do what they 1:16:55.996 --> 1:17:04.916 think they hear with help from my processes and my books. Uh, 1:17:04.956 --> 1:17:07.956 you know, don I I've always felt that unless the 1:17:07.996 --> 1:17:11.716 bass player gets in the bands, the band really can't 1:17:11.756 --> 1:17:13.876 cover a lot of different territory, because this is the 1:17:13.916 --> 1:17:17.436 guy who does everything, you know. And I explain to 1:17:17.476 --> 1:17:19.596 them my name's gets stunned, you know, I say, this 1:17:19.716 --> 1:17:23.036 is the only guy in the band who plays every note. 1:17:23.476 --> 1:17:27.756 He plays every beat, He pays every form, he plays 1:17:27.756 --> 1:17:35.316 every groove, wherever it is, he plays every presence and 1:17:35.316 --> 1:17:40.756 his his his, this his bareness for every beat of 1:17:40.796 --> 1:17:44.356 every song. Forever woe. Players pay three courses and they 1:17:44.356 --> 1:17:46.996 sit down and go to the bar beyond. Players clean 1:17:46.996 --> 1:17:50.236 their fingernails during the base so long. Trummer's always doing 1:17:50.276 --> 1:17:52.436 this fix or something. This is the only guy who 1:17:52.476 --> 1:17:57.516 does every note, and unless he improves, he can't help 1:17:57.556 --> 1:18:03.356 them grow. And most most badly, most members don't really 1:18:03.396 --> 1:18:08.076 know how to help him, and they don't know how 1:18:08.156 --> 1:18:10.356 to tell him what he needs to make him more 1:18:10.356 --> 1:18:16.276 efficient with them. And it's not just louder man. You 1:18:16.316 --> 1:18:18.996 know what about the note choice? How are you gonna 1:18:19.036 --> 1:18:21.716 mark the form for us? How you gonna get us 1:18:21.756 --> 1:18:24.076 in tune? You know? And I tell these guys said 1:18:24.116 --> 1:18:27.396 that whenever A Miles will be at the stage, he'd 1:18:27.436 --> 1:18:31.076 come back back in. He had two notes, he said, 1:18:31.316 --> 1:18:35.596 run sharper flat, say too high man, cause the hard 1:18:35.636 --> 1:18:38.116 got cold. All this you know deal, you know you 1:18:38.396 --> 1:18:40.876 check check check me out because he trusted my sense 1:18:40.916 --> 1:18:44.716 of this is a pitch man. I'm telling uh Russell 1:18:44.956 --> 1:18:47.396 sharp man, let's go man, cause it hurts my hand. 1:18:47.396 --> 1:18:50.276 I'm trying to find out exactly what the my base 1:18:50.356 --> 1:18:51.956 wants me to play the note in the same place, 1:18:52.076 --> 1:18:55.796 night in the night out. These guys don't allow it 1:18:55.836 --> 1:18:59.316 to happen. They're playing sharper flat as as they will fine, 1:18:59.836 --> 1:19:02.356 you know. So I think these are something on the 1:19:02.356 --> 1:19:07.156 base player's responsibilities. Once he understands what they are, the 1:19:07.356 --> 1:19:09.636 driver is to go somewhere someone who can help him 1:19:09.676 --> 1:19:13.076 sharpen these skills that he needs. 1:19:12.796 --> 1:19:13.196 To have. 1:19:15.476 --> 1:19:19.196 To not just be a member of the band, to be, 1:19:19.956 --> 1:19:23.836 but to be an integral part of the band, not 1:19:23.956 --> 1:19:26.836 just sin I'm in the band, in the band, yeah. 1:19:26.756 --> 1:19:28.916 Right, the QB. 1:19:29.356 --> 1:19:33.996 Yeah on my playlist right here, man, there's the changes. 1:19:35.636 --> 1:19:40.996 Wait guys, sorry, yeah, good one more. 1:19:41.036 --> 1:19:45.556 One more yeah. Well. Two studios. 1:19:46.196 --> 1:19:48.236 There's many great studios, but there's two studios where some 1:19:48.236 --> 1:19:51.796 of my favorite records have been made. One was Van 1:19:51.836 --> 1:19:54.676 Gelder's Place in New Jersey and the other's Columbia thirtieth 1:19:54.756 --> 1:19:58.076 Street Studio. And I've always been fascinated by Columbia thirty 1:19:58.116 --> 1:19:59.196 Street because I can't go to it. 1:19:59.276 --> 1:20:03.356 Yes, yeah, that's not fores ye. But one of my 1:20:03.356 --> 1:20:04.596 favorite studios were Clinton. 1:20:05.196 --> 1:20:05.716 Yeah. 1:20:05.716 --> 1:20:06.076 Oh. 1:20:06.356 --> 1:20:09.076 And then right now it's a it's a flat flat 1:20:09.156 --> 1:20:11.476 the surface. There's nothing there at all. Man, there's the 1:20:11.596 --> 1:20:15.356 fence around it. It's gone. I've been gone about ten years. 1:20:15.396 --> 1:20:15.996 Where is it? 1:20:16.116 --> 1:20:20.676 Forty sixth Street and tenth Avenue. Right across the street 1:20:20.756 --> 1:20:25.836 was a pottery shop called Muddy Fingers, and down the 1:20:25.876 --> 1:20:30.236 street was the Old Folks Home. And there's two great 1:20:30.356 --> 1:20:32.996 great rooms. And I made some wonderful sounding record that's 1:20:33.036 --> 1:20:35.236 just see. The base was in charge that day. 1:20:35.356 --> 1:20:35.716 Wow. 1:20:36.196 --> 1:20:38.916 And when you get to record right, you own that sucker, man. 1:20:40.396 --> 1:20:45.396 I have a record called All Along, That's what it is. 1:20:45.636 --> 1:20:50.036 It's all alone, just me and the base sounded great 1:20:50.116 --> 1:20:53.996 that day and Rudy captured the greatness of the sound 1:20:54.756 --> 1:20:58.316 of the base. So all my stereo guys wanted to 1:20:58.356 --> 1:21:00.796 check their guy out this record, just to tell you 1:21:00.836 --> 1:21:02.916 how low it can sound good. It's just a wonderful 1:21:02.996 --> 1:21:06.676 sounding disc. And Columbia had that came down the sound 1:21:07.596 --> 1:21:11.316 weft the hall another one of my outdates with Miles. 1:21:11.356 --> 1:21:15.116 Like Gil Evans, it was a great sounding room, just 1:21:15.116 --> 1:21:19.156 because the air then then have a debase from vibrating 1:21:19.196 --> 1:21:22.636 to it's optimum. 1:21:22.676 --> 1:21:29.436 But thirty Street wasn't necessarily available to everyone. Yeah, so 1:21:29.436 --> 1:21:30.436 many good records there. 1:21:30.356 --> 1:21:33.516 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It really really set the standard. 1:21:33.596 --> 1:21:35.316 Man. 1:21:35.356 --> 1:21:38.556 Fortunately they have able them been able to get the 1:21:38.596 --> 1:21:41.156 historical landmarks so that they can't tear it down and 1:21:41.356 --> 1:21:43.756 put a co op or a mom and pop store there. 1:21:44.036 --> 1:21:46.116 They did get the historical land Yeah, they did get that. 1:21:46.996 --> 1:21:48.636 A lot of work, a lot of paperwork, but they 1:21:48.716 --> 1:21:52.836 had to wherewithal and and and never give up up 1:21:52.836 --> 1:21:55.156 to them this to get the sucker done. And I 1:21:55.556 --> 1:22:00.636 applaud them every hour because Rudy's Rudy's monument. It's necessary 1:22:00.676 --> 1:22:05.796 to still be standing. It's not this, it's this. Can 1:22:05.836 --> 1:22:09.996 you imagine these guys just taking the one master tape 1:22:10.116 --> 1:22:13.356 and for the raise cutting it to edit distant. What 1:22:13.476 --> 1:22:17.116 kind of skill is that man? He didn't miss He 1:22:17.196 --> 1:22:21.476 nails an East one man. I'm telling you, yeah, incredible. 1:22:21.716 --> 1:22:24.476 Here's a really good Wherever you are, Ludy, I take 1:22:24.516 --> 1:22:25.236 my hat off to you. 1:22:27.596 --> 1:22:31.356 Earned it many Thanks so much for doing this, mister Carter. 1:22:31.476 --> 1:22:34.876 Thank you, my friend, Thank you, my friend. 1:22:38.636 --> 1:22:40.996 Thanks so much to Master Ron Carter for opening up 1:22:40.996 --> 1:22:43.356 to Don and me about his early life in music 1:22:43.476 --> 1:22:45.236 and some of the friends he made along the way. 1:22:46.076 --> 1:22:48.436 You can hear our favorite tracks written by or featuring 1:22:48.516 --> 1:22:51.916 Ron Carter on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. 1:22:52.236 --> 1:22:54.196 You can also listen to this interview and other recent 1:22:54.236 --> 1:22:57.636 episodes at YouTube dot com. Slash Broken Record podcast goes 1:22:57.676 --> 1:22:59.156 all some video episodes. 1:22:58.796 --> 1:22:59.316 Up there too. 1:23:00.236 --> 1:23:03.476 Follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record PI. Broken 1:23:03.476 --> 1:23:05.956 Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing 1:23:05.996 --> 1:23:09.716 help from Derek Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is 1:23:09.796 --> 1:23:13.156 ben To Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 1:23:13.276 --> 1:23:15.476 If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider 1:23:15.516 --> 1:23:19.596 subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription 1:23:19.636 --> 1:23:22.156 that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four 1:23:22.316 --> 1:23:24.876 ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple 1:23:24.956 --> 1:23:28.156 podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember 1:23:28.156 --> 1:23:30.036 to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app 1:23:30.156 --> 1:23:30.956 and on YouTube. 1:23:31.276 --> 1:23:34.076 By Theme Music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,