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Speaker 1: Pushkin, We're continuing our celebration of Blue Note Records eighty

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Speaker 1: fifth anniversary with a conversation with a certified living legend,

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Speaker 1: Ron Carter. For starters, he was a key member of

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Speaker 1: a group that's on the shortlist for the Greatest band

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Speaker 1: of all time. That's the second Great Miles Davis Quintet,

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Speaker 1: featuring Ron Carter himself, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams,

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Speaker 1: and naturally Miles Davis. And although many conversations with Ron

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Speaker 1: Carter start and end with that period of his life

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Speaker 1: from nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty eight, at eighty

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Speaker 1: seven years of age and as a lifelong seeker, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more to the Ron Carter story, and I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to say we got an interesting little slice of

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Speaker 1: it for you today. When Don was and I sat

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Speaker 1: up on the stage at the Blue Note Club in

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Speaker 1: NYC with Ron Carter, we wanted to know a little

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Speaker 1: more about his life growing up in Detroit, class aspirations.

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Speaker 1: In response to those questions, Mastro Carter delivered an emotional,

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Speaker 1: stream of consciousness response that resonated deeply with both Don

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Speaker 1: and I. My hopes that it will move you as well.

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Speaker 1: And since we're celebrating the eighty fifth anniversary of Blue

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Speaker 1: Note Records, ron Carter also gives some fascinating insight into

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Speaker 1: a few key people from the label's esteemed history. This

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Speaker 1: is Broken Record Liner Notes for the digital age.

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Speaker 2: I'm justin Mitchman.

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Speaker 1: Here's Don Was and myself from the Blue Note in

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Speaker 1: New York City with Mastro Ron Carter. To see the

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Speaker 1: full video version of this episode, go to YouTube dot

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Speaker 1: com slash Broken Record Podcast.

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Speaker 3: When I first got the job at Blue Note, I

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Speaker 3: went to the archives, did a little research, and there's

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Speaker 3: an insanely inordinate number of musicians who come from Detroit,

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Speaker 3: like not even a close second in terms of cities.

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Speaker 3: What do you think it is about Detroit?

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Speaker 4: You know, I think when the when the people from

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Speaker 4: the South went up north that migration. I just think

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Speaker 4: that that the enthusiasm of being free and the chances

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Speaker 4: of being productive and being free went to where the

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Speaker 4: industrial states were. They had those kind of options, and

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Speaker 4: Detroit has always been a manufacturing city cars right now,

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Speaker 4: and then Henry Ford made the unfortunes with the assembly

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Speaker 4: line in Detroit. And my general view is that the

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Speaker 4: people who were of that mindset They all came to

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Speaker 4: places where he could find the work. You know, the

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Speaker 4: musicians went to Philadelphia, person that East Builders and uh

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Speaker 4: Pittsburgh Ahmed. But somehow Detroit was the biggest manufacturing city

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Speaker 4: that had the most options. As a non his struggle guests,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 3: Right, you chose to be a classical cellist originally represent

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Speaker 3: your ambition and you changed. What were the circumstances that

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Speaker 3: that caused you to change over to playing bass? From Chello.

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Speaker 4: The start of the story is I was going to

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Speaker 4: all black junior elementary school and this person came in

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Speaker 4: with it. Came into a room where they had these

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Speaker 4: things front on the table, you know, like ten to

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Speaker 4: ten eleven twelve year old kids. She says she's going

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Speaker 4: to start the orchestra at this school, and children, these

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Speaker 4: are the instruments that we're going to play. I walk

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Speaker 4: around and pick one that you think appeals to you

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Speaker 4: at the best sound you can get out of there,

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Speaker 4: whatever it sounds like, and we'll make some music together.

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Speaker 4: And somehow the cello caught my attention. It was it

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Speaker 4: was aluminum, you know, And so as I got better

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Speaker 4: the teacher's record and I said, I was looking past

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Speaker 4: their teaching level. Ultimately, I was considered a really giant

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Speaker 4: talent for an African American fourteen year old. And so

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Speaker 4: one day I looked around. My dad said, son, if

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Speaker 4: you want to be in this game, you got you

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Speaker 4: gotta be better than everybody else who's in the game. Okay.

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Speaker 4: Having said that, I thought that I was upholding that

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Speaker 4: general family motto, you know. So I looked around one

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Speaker 4: day in the base player was graduating this. I'm a

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Speaker 4: senior in high school. A senior had done met there

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Speaker 4: would be nineteen fifty three fifty four spring, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I was always good at math. My father was

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Speaker 4: a genius, but I could subtract pretty good. So I'm

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Speaker 4: looking around and said, if he's only one guy there

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Speaker 4: and don't need a base player not as a zero,

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Speaker 4: I don't want to be that guy. So prince my

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Speaker 4: parents that do is a good way me to get better,

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Speaker 4: you know, and get get get get the work out,

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Speaker 4: looking for get the exposure, get the experience. Because I

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Speaker 4: was the only guy playing this, you know. So they they

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Speaker 4: sold my cello and the borrower money for a base

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Speaker 4: and got some lessons, you know, and uh, the Eastman

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Speaker 4: was having auditions throughout the country Eastern School of Music.

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Speaker 4: So I got some books, got a teacher and figured

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Speaker 4: out what the library was, and audition and I got

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Speaker 4: a full scotship for four years. I'm not a bass

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Speaker 4: player at Aceland, you know. And uh, while I knew

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Speaker 4: of jazz, because we all knew about the jazz and

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Speaker 4: blues and stuff like that, I never gave it a

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Speaker 4: thought of being a player on that level. I was

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Speaker 4: gonna be a cello solo man. Now I was gonna

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Speaker 4: be an orchestral bass player. I almost gay with that

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Speaker 4: because I got the same notes basically, you know, different attitude,

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Speaker 4: but I could do.

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Speaker 2: That, you know. Uh.

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Speaker 4: And as I got better at Eastman cause it was

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Speaker 4: a very competitive investment environment, you know that they were like, uh,

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Speaker 4: six or seven African Americans and a student bid them

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Speaker 4: maybe six or seven hundred kids and then about ten

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Speaker 4: basse players, yeah, bass player of students, you know. Uh.

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Speaker 4: And again I'm st I ask cause him was a teacher,

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Speaker 4: and he's Tim's coming on how I was improving and

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Speaker 4: how I was really understanding the music, the music and

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Speaker 4: around me, you know, how to playing on an orchestra.

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Speaker 4: Just those kind of details that good teachers show students

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Speaker 4: who they think are capable of handling another level of performance.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: So I'm getting better. You know, I'm still working on

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Speaker 4: my father's mental You wanna you wanna play the game,

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Speaker 4: you gotta have a better hand, so to speak, you know. Uh, So,

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Speaker 4: I mean I'm getting orchestra. I'm done this. I'm getting

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Speaker 4: all these gigs. I go home for the summer because

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Speaker 4: I have no money to stay in town s. School

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Speaker 4: is over, the dorm too is closing, you know. So

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Speaker 4: I get my car drive back to Detroit, and my neighbor,

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Speaker 4: who was a saxophone player, said, hey, hey, Ron, I'm

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Speaker 4: the I'm putting together a little band to play for

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Speaker 4: the Dwayne State University parties for sororities maternities. But we

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Speaker 4: need a bass plick, and you do that. I said, well,

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Speaker 4: I don't read a little library, and I understand that's

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Speaker 4: different music. But if you can give me some records

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Speaker 4: or something we listened to in the library, I'll see

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Speaker 4: how much I can learn in the time I'll be

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Speaker 4: home for this three months off of school. And at

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Speaker 4: the time, Dave Blue Brick was really hot. But jazz

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Speaker 4: goes to college. That record you know with uh so,

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Speaker 4: I said, well, I learned some of these songs cause

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Speaker 4: I'm starting to sing like Chet Baker. I said, Chet Baker,

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Speaker 4: you know, he's a singing trip. Okay, whatever.

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Speaker 2: I know.

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Speaker 4: The piano player love Bud Powell. And back in the

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Speaker 4: day there was jazz on TV Detroit and that they

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Speaker 4: still have the show from Rouge Lounge, which is about

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Speaker 4: our drive outside Detroit Northeast and the host of Swoopy Sales,

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Speaker 4: the comedian yeah you know. And one day here on

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Speaker 4: this show the Max Roads Quartet with uh Max, George Morrow.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think maybe a Bubb's on the band

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Speaker 4: and maybe Heroldlin. I can't remember this so far back,

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Speaker 4: but he he was, he was. They had the twenty

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Speaker 4: minutes of songs with Bud Powell and Max I said, said,

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Speaker 4: rock this is it. Yeah, I said, okay, I'm still

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Speaker 4: playing Bark and Beethoven Brahms, cause that's what I'm That's

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Speaker 4: what I'm aiming for. But look out for the summer.

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Speaker 4: The scholarship didn't cover all my expenses and I need

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Speaker 4: to have some money so I could back to school

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Speaker 4: cause my parents weren't able to take care of the

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Speaker 4: remaining kids. There were like five left that at home

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Speaker 4: when I left for Scolet, so I'm responsible helping him

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Speaker 4: to cover and stuff. So okay, I can do that.

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Speaker 4: As I'm getting better. I get back to Rochester for

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Speaker 4: this my junior my sophomore year, and uh there's a

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Speaker 4: local club. Local clubs have some music, the black clubs,

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Speaker 4: you know, thirty into all night sessions till four or

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Speaker 4: five o'clock in the morning, and I got eight o'clock

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Speaker 4: thiry class man, Come on, it's Carter. Hello. You know.

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Speaker 4: I'm into that kind of zone, you know, but I

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Speaker 4: need the money, so I try to figure it out.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've got some books, I got the library. Uh.

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Speaker 4: I was able to do the jam sessions at the night,

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Speaker 4: from the two mid night the three in the morning,

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Speaker 4: you know, but I got better at it, you know,

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Speaker 4: by still in an orchestra, I'm still trying to get

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Speaker 4: this orchestral orchestral accomplishment that I'm aiming to do.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: Jazz was something that helped me stand school by strings

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Speaker 4: for the instruments, stuff details, you know, a and uh

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Speaker 4: I I noticed the bulletin board. They would have jobs

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Speaker 4: for orchestras, auditions, stuff like that, you know. And uh,

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Speaker 4: while I saw that, I was still not seeing it

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Speaker 4: and that those auditions were kind of general, but I

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Speaker 4: wasn't feeling any schooled encouragement to check that out, you know.

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Speaker 4: And and it didn't stop me on my tracks as

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Speaker 4: to why I weren't they encouraging me to check it out.

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Speaker 4: I just said, look, I'm trying to I'm trying to

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Speaker 4: get a degree here, but I'm I'm got a minor

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Speaker 4: and I got a major in this, got these classes.

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Speaker 4: I'm in a very competitive environment. All these kids think

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Speaker 4: they're the best there is and they'd work until that end.

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Speaker 4: They got practice time. I mean, it's just other factors

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Speaker 4: in my life, right, you know. Uh, I had really

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Speaker 4: learned how socialize with white people, cause I'm I'm all

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Speaker 4: black community. I'm growing up in that environment, you know.

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Speaker 4: M Uh, I had a scholarship, but I meant I

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Speaker 4: had to work in the kitchen to wash the dishes

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Speaker 4: during the meals, you know. So I met some nice

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Speaker 4: guys who were in the same general boat who had

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Speaker 4: a lot more money, but they were real nice guys.

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Speaker 4: So to this day, I still contact those guys cause

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Speaker 4: they're still my friends, you know. So I was getting

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Speaker 4: out to learn how to learned how to socialize with

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Speaker 4: a uh, a non complete black environment. So I was

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Speaker 4: growing up too at the same time. You know. A

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Speaker 4: footnote to this story down is that uh Eastman School

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Speaker 4: in musical separate from University of Rochester physically. It was

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Speaker 4: like a s four mile distance in campuses, you know.

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Speaker 4: And so when the freshman met at the Eastman, the

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Speaker 4: guys from the River campus they called it, came to

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Speaker 4: the school the s you know, socialized, you know, and uh,

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Speaker 4: a couple of size, couple of guys thought that all

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Speaker 4: musicians were at the time.

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Speaker 3: The work was fruits.

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Speaker 4: You know, it was not a very nice word, you know,

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Speaker 4: A and uh us on Detroit and that put there

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Speaker 4: with that hardhead and you know, the badass on my jacket,

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Speaker 4: that kind of stuff, you know. I said, I said,

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Speaker 4: so I have not about I just made a couple

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Speaker 4: acquaintance and said, man, those guys can't talk to like that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not sure, but I don't know about

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Speaker 4: you guys, but I'm not I'm not buying that kind

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Speaker 4: of description of me, you know, said well, well, gee,

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Speaker 4: what do you want to do? I said, well, I

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Speaker 4: was play a decent basketball player. I want to try

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Speaker 4: to make the team, said man, but you got practice that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I know that, I know that very well. Well let's

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Speaker 4: see what happens. So the two of us got unerved together.

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Speaker 4: You know, we would bicycles two and a half miles

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Speaker 4: out of the campus and all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 4: And then we had the couple of practices and the

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Speaker 4: guy got the squad down to whatever twelve people, and uh,

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Speaker 4: I made the squad. So I was playing. I was

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Speaker 4: on the Trusturant squad basketball team. I got made in

224
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Speaker 4: about three games by two points. But it was okay.

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Speaker 4: The point, well say, I made the squad, you know,

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Speaker 4: but it was seemed clear me that I couldn't do

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Speaker 4: both and being I couldn't be a good basketball player,

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Speaker 4: and my goal to be it was to be a

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Speaker 4: good player. I couldn't do both. So I acknowledged that.

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Speaker 4: I told these guys, okay, this is one guy who

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Speaker 4: did that.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: In the meantime, I'm noticing the bolleting board mentions about

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Speaker 4: the auditions for the violence section. They the third violin player, earlyer,

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Speaker 4: thesistant concert master, and they need a bass player at somewhere.

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Speaker 4: So I noticed these sayings, you know, and uh, I'm

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Speaker 4: not feeling any encouragement. And I'm not feeling any overt encouragement.

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Speaker 4: The one said, hey man, check this out. Try how

239
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Speaker 4: that feeling. I didn't get that. I wasn't feeling that

240
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Speaker 4: you and any event. One of the processes at the

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Speaker 4: time now was that every every every orchestral sequent of

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Speaker 4: Rochester Philharmonic they would need some spaces field. So they

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Speaker 4: called students in the school who could cover the libor

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Speaker 4: who deserved the right, who who earned the right to

245
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Speaker 4: be a part of the Rochester Philharmonic as they were

246
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Speaker 4: juniors or sophomoret or seniors in college, you know. And

247
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Speaker 4: so it turned out nineteen fifty eight they needed a

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Speaker 4: bass player for the Philharmonic orchestra for the fifty eight

249
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Speaker 4: fifty nine season, you know.

250
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Speaker 3: And uh so asker said you should be the guy

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Speaker 3: to do that.

252
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Speaker 4: So I said, okay, So whatever whatever the process was,

253
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Speaker 4: I got a call next day said that they had

254
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Speaker 4: the opening and the Philharmonica and they want me to

255
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Speaker 4: fill the chair. I said, okay, this is what it takes, huh, okay,

256
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Speaker 4: sign me up. Okay. So for a year I was

257
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Speaker 4: the probably first personal club player in the Philharmonic Orchestra.

258
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Speaker 4: You know, I'm still making gigs on weekends now. And

259
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Speaker 4: uh one weekend there was Horace Silver's band a place

260
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Speaker 4: called Squeezers bam Box, and the horse had Teddy Kodak,

261
00:15:07,516 --> 00:15:10,316
Speaker 4: maybe Clifford Jordan our farmer.

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Speaker 2: He got a really good band man still back in Detroit.

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Speaker 4: No, no in Rochester, Rochester, Yeah, uh had a really

264
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Speaker 4: good band. So ultimately I joined the house the house band,

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Speaker 4: the place called a rich Crest and uh uh just

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Speaker 4: out side of New York, and they bought him acts

267
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Speaker 4: and I was part of the intermission band. Me drummer

268
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Speaker 4: named Don Manning and pianist named Joe Close who walkman

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Speaker 4: left town and went to Joe went to sell the

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Speaker 4: uh Jo Ernestin Anderson a really good piano player. And

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Speaker 4: then even some seeing all these guys come in weekends

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Speaker 4: with this with the uh uh officer of dis disach band.

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Speaker 4: Uh I met ike Issex, who was what Camonkree at

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Speaker 4: the time. You know, Sam Jones came through, you know,

275
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Speaker 4: uh sunny Stick came by himself as a single and

276
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Speaker 4: and uh so he played with the house band. So

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Speaker 4: and me, the Joe and and Don and the first

278
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Speaker 4: time he tried us, I was de flat blues right here.

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Speaker 4: M I said, well, okay, I can do that nothing

280
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Speaker 4: but the blues and deflat then, I mean, really that's

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Speaker 4: the test, you know, and so we got. It was

282
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Speaker 4: that nice experience to me to see how this guy

283
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Speaker 4: who is as close to bridge you can get without

284
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Speaker 4: being buried, played every night that level. I mean, it

285
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Speaker 4: was just often. It's just amazing, you know. Uh some

286
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Speaker 4: Gaelic mean that he may not know his name, but

287
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Speaker 4: he's one of the early duals Slim and Slim and Slam.

288
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Speaker 4: And he came in as a single and we talked

289
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Speaker 4: about music and changes and chords. You know, they were

290
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Speaker 4: really making this music concept more available to me firsthand.

291
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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, I'm in Philharmonic Arcs. We have concerts, and

293
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Speaker 4: I got a white bow time matching vest, you know.

294
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Speaker 4: And then uh uh they had guest conductors, Pierre Montreu, uh,

295
00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:04,916
Speaker 4: Leo Postokowski, all these people came into four or five

296
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Speaker 4: of them. And so one day I'm got to rosal

297
00:17:07,836 --> 00:17:12,076
Speaker 4: Leo Posta Cooski was about for six you know, now

298
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Speaker 4: six two six three something like that. You know, he said,

299
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Speaker 4: why don't you have a seat? I get some look

300
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Speaker 4: in the eye to eye, cause I was you know,

301
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Speaker 4: he says, so the young man, I have noticed your

302
00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:25,076
Speaker 4: performance here, and you seem like a really good person

303
00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:27,436
Speaker 4: and a marvelous player. And I'd like you to go

304
00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:30,836
Speaker 4: to my orchestra down in Texas. But the boy of

305
00:17:30,876 --> 00:17:33,636
Speaker 4: the directors right now, I'm not ready to hire colored people.

306
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Speaker 4: H I said, Okay, that's the first honest I mean,

307
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Speaker 4: that's the first honest answer I got to describe the

308
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Speaker 4: classical world at that time, you know, I said, okay,

309
00:17:50,076 --> 00:17:52,636
Speaker 4: and and uh right went right. Then I knew that

310
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Speaker 4: I had to find another a another play to play music,

311
00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:59,636
Speaker 4: you know. And along this time the bass players would

312
00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:02,276
Speaker 4: say that I had some skills, and they thought that

313
00:18:02,316 --> 00:18:03,956
Speaker 4: I'd do good in New York. They didn't know my

314
00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:07,156
Speaker 4: classical interest. That that wasn't con that wasn't there thing.

315
00:18:07,196 --> 00:18:09,636
Speaker 4: I just a bass player was in the and then

316
00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:12,796
Speaker 4: in the mission band, you know, they said, New York.

317
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Speaker 4: He's a good bass player. And she'd come in and

318
00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:17,836
Speaker 4: try you look, you know. In the meantime, I met

319
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Speaker 4: a couple of guys called the Man Jones, Gap and

320
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Speaker 4: Chuck and their family the man Jones. Frank and Nancy

321
00:18:25,356 --> 00:18:27,876
Speaker 4: hosted any musician who came to town who played jazz.

322
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Speaker 4: They hosted them for lunch or dinner. It's clearly amazing.

323
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Speaker 4: So I meant dazzy. I meant all those guys at

324
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Speaker 4: their home for dinner. And the Chuck and Gap had

325
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Speaker 4: a band, and and the tentler named Benny sells out

326
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Speaker 4: in a band called Little Giants, and uh or Keaton

327
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Speaker 4: has heard about them and game they made a record

328
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Speaker 4: with the Riverside. Uh So I was in my first

329
00:18:51,396 --> 00:18:55,716
Speaker 4: record back then in those days, and they were clearly

330
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Speaker 4: encouraging me, not necessarily not to play classical, but to

331
00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:08,996
Speaker 4: acknowledge from my talent. Also lay you know, they're providing

332
00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:12,716
Speaker 4: many a meal cause I had no money. The kid

333
00:19:12,716 --> 00:19:14,556
Speaker 4: didn't pay much, but he did keep me in school.

334
00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:17,836
Speaker 4: I just got married in nineteen fifty eight. I I

335
00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:21,196
Speaker 4: was not scustling, but they made it easy to not

336
00:19:21,276 --> 00:19:25,676
Speaker 4: worry about where my next meal was coming from. Frank

337
00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:27,276
Speaker 4: and Nancy well a lovely couple.

338
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Speaker 2: Man.

339
00:19:28,036 --> 00:19:28,236
Speaker 3: You know.

340
00:19:29,316 --> 00:19:31,596
Speaker 4: Of course Chuck got famous, and the Gap cause the

341
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Speaker 4: local piano player who've worked all the time. They're really

342
00:19:33,916 --> 00:19:37,276
Speaker 4: great people. Until this day. I'm in touch with gap

343
00:19:37,316 --> 00:19:42,996
Speaker 4: in Charlie. Now you know in any event, U ultimately, Uh,

344
00:19:43,236 --> 00:19:46,876
Speaker 4: jazz shows ken in Rochester at the Eastman Theater, and

345
00:19:46,956 --> 00:19:49,676
Speaker 4: they had the Jazz Package shows and they were all

346
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Speaker 4: jazz acts. The particular show.

347
00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:52,316
Speaker 2: Had men A.

348
00:19:52,436 --> 00:19:57,716
Speaker 4: Ferkinson's band, had Lamon Herricks and Ross's band, had Dave

349
00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:00,836
Speaker 4: Rubik's group and Miles all in the same show man,

350
00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:04,636
Speaker 4: you know. And and UH and me and Chuck and

351
00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:07,796
Speaker 4: Charlie went to the concert. I said, let's see what

352
00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:09,316
Speaker 4: it looks like, you know, Okay.

353
00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:09,396
Speaker 1: You know.

354
00:20:10,116 --> 00:20:12,676
Speaker 4: So it turned out some almost supposed to take the

355
00:20:12,756 --> 00:20:14,876
Speaker 4: band to the train station, cause that was part of

356
00:20:14,916 --> 00:20:18,396
Speaker 4: the truck line from Canada, Canada upstate New York. Yeah,

357
00:20:18,436 --> 00:20:20,836
Speaker 4: you had the other to New York City. And they

358
00:20:20,876 --> 00:20:23,076
Speaker 4: all made a stop at this Rochester cause there's a

359
00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:29,116
Speaker 4: big school Rochester, rit big you know, it's Eastern Kodak,

360
00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:32,676
Speaker 4: it's all there, Balsh and Lob, it's all there. It's

361
00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:34,676
Speaker 4: a good financial stop to make come way back to

362
00:20:34,716 --> 00:20:38,116
Speaker 4: New York from Canada, you know. And anyway, so who

363
00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:40,596
Speaker 4: was supposed to take these guys to the translation never

364
00:20:40,636 --> 00:20:44,356
Speaker 4: showed up and s and so uh the guy asked me,

365
00:20:44,356 --> 00:20:46,476
Speaker 4: would I take him to the transtation. Miles band through

366
00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:48,036
Speaker 4: the transtation. I said, I got to look forward.

367
00:20:48,116 --> 00:20:48,316
Speaker 3: Man.

368
00:20:48,356 --> 00:20:51,636
Speaker 4: You know these guys they they didn't at level of transportation.

369
00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:54,636
Speaker 4: So no, no, no, they ride with you. So I

370
00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:57,716
Speaker 4: took Miles and and and uh Red Garland to the

371
00:20:57,756 --> 00:21:00,796
Speaker 4: transtation of my car. And but that's it, just ride.

372
00:21:01,156 --> 00:21:03,436
Speaker 4: We were you know, they were famous. I'm in school,

373
00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:05,796
Speaker 4: I'm basic playing school. But the Philarmonic had you listen

374
00:21:05,876 --> 00:21:06,356
Speaker 4: to them yet?

375
00:21:06,916 --> 00:21:07,396
Speaker 2: Not really?

376
00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:09,636
Speaker 4: I mean I knew who they were, but then everybody

377
00:21:09,676 --> 00:21:12,396
Speaker 4: knew who they were, you know. But uh, I was

378
00:21:13,596 --> 00:21:15,716
Speaker 4: just impressed that they trusted my driving skills.

379
00:21:17,156 --> 00:21:21,556
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I got nineteen nineteen fifty Ford man, come on,

380
00:21:21,796 --> 00:21:25,276
Speaker 5: you know, uh so you see hello, how are you

381
00:21:25,356 --> 00:21:27,916
Speaker 5: mister Davis and mister mister Garland.

382
00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:29,876
Speaker 4: You know I'm the guy to go take it to

383
00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:34,196
Speaker 4: the train station. Okay, good, all right, Okay, that's it.

384
00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:38,636
Speaker 4: So I graduated. So in the meantime, Jicko Hamilton had

385
00:21:38,636 --> 00:21:41,236
Speaker 4: a band and he told me we had we we

386
00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,756
Speaker 4: see said, uh someone said, he said, hey, Ronnie, all

387
00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:47,516
Speaker 4: you played Chell? Yes I do, mister mister Hampton said

388
00:21:47,756 --> 00:21:50,916
Speaker 4: play something. So I brought a chiller and said in

389
00:21:50,956 --> 00:21:52,516
Speaker 4: the practice room and play a couple of things with

390
00:21:52,556 --> 00:21:54,756
Speaker 4: a box that I knew, so still had some skills,

391
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:56,956
Speaker 4: you know. He said, we were working in New York

392
00:21:56,956 --> 00:21:58,636
Speaker 4: on this day, August. Work it is, and if you

393
00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:01,556
Speaker 4: get to New York when you graduately, come to New York.

394
00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:03,876
Speaker 4: And if I'm working, take my Chello players about to

395
00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,836
Speaker 4: leave the band and I need a policeman.

396
00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:07,956
Speaker 3: Are you interested?

397
00:22:09,716 --> 00:22:12,196
Speaker 4: I said, well, I mentioned, I'm not sure how many

398
00:22:12,236 --> 00:22:14,196
Speaker 4: skills I have left cause I haven't played in a

399
00:22:14,276 --> 00:22:16,196
Speaker 4: long time, but I think I can hamlet it, you know.

400
00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:19,876
Speaker 4: He said, well, come to New York. And then if

401
00:22:19,916 --> 00:22:22,876
Speaker 4: they how are you? I said, okay. So I graduated

402
00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:26,036
Speaker 4: at June of nineteen fifty nine and got me to

403
00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:27,996
Speaker 4: New York office for the same year, and the band

404
00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:31,476
Speaker 4: was working at Birdland. So I walked downstairs. You know,

405
00:22:33,316 --> 00:22:37,756
Speaker 4: I'm mister Hamilton here. He said, well, change the plans.

406
00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:40,196
Speaker 4: I said, oh yeah, what said, Well, chel players are

407
00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:43,276
Speaker 4: going to stay, but I need a bass player White

408
00:22:43,396 --> 00:22:45,236
Speaker 4: Rules for bul Rules have decided to go back to

409
00:22:45,276 --> 00:22:48,476
Speaker 4: Seattle and set up shopping in Seattle. Are you doing

410
00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:50,956
Speaker 4: to take this gig? I said, sure, I'm here now

411
00:22:50,956 --> 00:22:53,236
Speaker 4: I've meant a commitment to stay here. You know, who's

412
00:22:53,276 --> 00:22:56,196
Speaker 4: in a band. Then this buddy Mire plants playing guitar,

413
00:22:57,316 --> 00:23:00,236
Speaker 4: that Gerson was a cello player and her dolphin was

414
00:23:00,236 --> 00:23:04,036
Speaker 4: a red player. I said, okay, and he said, I said,

415
00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:06,276
Speaker 4: we're leaving in uh wherever it is. We got to

416
00:23:06,276 --> 00:23:08,916
Speaker 4: come country on the road, and we come back. We

417
00:23:08,996 --> 00:23:10,756
Speaker 4: go to California for a while. I said, well, you know,

418
00:23:10,796 --> 00:23:13,396
Speaker 4: I'm still going to school. He said, well, why don't

419
00:23:13,396 --> 00:23:17,356
Speaker 4: you try to delete the school until January and en roll?

420
00:23:17,556 --> 00:23:19,356
Speaker 4: And I'll say, I don't know, not to talk to

421
00:23:19,436 --> 00:23:21,916
Speaker 4: them because I got a scholarship for a master's program

422
00:23:22,196 --> 00:23:24,236
Speaker 4: for the year, you know, and I'm not I think

423
00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:27,596
Speaker 4: i'd cancel it. I'll be in We'll talk with him,

424
00:23:27,596 --> 00:23:29,676
Speaker 4: you know. So I talked to the school and said,

425
00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:31,276
Speaker 4: I got this chance to go on the road, but

426
00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:35,076
Speaker 4: chick on hambleting, you know, can I start my scholarship

427
00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:38,876
Speaker 4: in January of nineteen sixty rather than.

428
00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:41,836
Speaker 2: The fall of fifty nine?

429
00:23:41,956 --> 00:23:47,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I said, okay, okay.

430
00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:49,996
Speaker 4: You know, so I left town with chicken hamblting for

431
00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:53,676
Speaker 4: like five four weeks, all these stops on We drove

432
00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:56,196
Speaker 4: from Boston to Los Angeles.

433
00:23:58,236 --> 00:23:58,516
Speaker 3: Drove.

434
00:23:58,756 --> 00:23:59,556
Speaker 2: How was that drive?

435
00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:03,316
Speaker 4: We had four drivers, Chico, me and Timmy and his

436
00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:04,036
Speaker 4: brother drove.

437
00:24:04,156 --> 00:24:04,756
Speaker 3: So it was fun.

438
00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:07,276
Speaker 4: You know, I'm just a guy in Detroit, but family

439
00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:11,236
Speaker 4: of six, six girls and my brother. It's all new

440
00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:15,836
Speaker 4: to me. Man. You know. Uh, one of the stops,

441
00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:17,556
Speaker 4: by the way, it was in Washington, d C. The

442
00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:21,596
Speaker 4: first stop in Washington, and uh, it's it. It was

443
00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:24,956
Speaker 4: really north of New York, but cause it's really down

444
00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:28,236
Speaker 4: south for me, you know. And we put up to

445
00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:30,356
Speaker 4: Howard Johnson's if you know that name from back in

446
00:24:30,396 --> 00:24:34,596
Speaker 4: the day, and and uh were right in the bus

447
00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:36,956
Speaker 4: of the the shows and of the show's tracking by bus.

448
00:24:36,996 --> 00:24:40,076
Speaker 4: You know, they had Colin Hawkins and Mouser's band. That's

449
00:24:40,116 --> 00:24:42,596
Speaker 4: just a great bunch of people. To watch them operate,

450
00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:47,196
Speaker 4: watch them talk, watch how they communicated with each other

451
00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:48,796
Speaker 4: with all their genius skills.

452
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:49,196
Speaker 2: You know.

453
00:24:51,236 --> 00:24:52,956
Speaker 4: So we end in waiting in the bus for a while.

454
00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,196
Speaker 4: We still waiting, and then the guy comes back and says, well,

455
00:24:55,716 --> 00:24:57,636
Speaker 4: you know that they don't serve black people. Yes, we

456
00:24:57,676 --> 00:24:59,236
Speaker 4: have to go around the back or find somewhere else

457
00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:02,836
Speaker 4: to eat, you know, And Howard Johnson's Yeah, I said ah,

458
00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:07,996
Speaker 4: this is, this is, this is Yeah, you got the

459
00:25:08,076 --> 00:25:10,636
Speaker 4: bus for the geniuses and they didn't want to serve

460
00:25:10,676 --> 00:25:12,156
Speaker 4: them be cause they're not white. I didn't. I didn't,

461
00:25:12,156 --> 00:25:15,316
Speaker 4: I didn't. I I didn't get that. You know, I'm

462
00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:19,596
Speaker 4: uh twenty maybe nineteen now, you know, from Detroit, like

463
00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:22,116
Speaker 4: the riots and all that stuff. So I the idea

464
00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:24,196
Speaker 4: of that kind of convertation is not new to me.

465
00:25:24,956 --> 00:25:27,916
Speaker 4: But to be so close to it and to see

466
00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:30,996
Speaker 4: the people who they don't wanna serve a sandwich to

467
00:25:31,116 --> 00:25:32,676
Speaker 4: man this talent, how could that be?

468
00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:33,116
Speaker 5: Man?

469
00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:35,716
Speaker 4: But so I'll just fucking picture how could that? How

470
00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:41,116
Speaker 4: could that take place? You know? Hello, world, world, next door?

471
00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:46,876
Speaker 4: Come this way that you know? Any event, I got

472
00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 4: over that and I understood. Okay. So one of these

473
00:25:52,236 --> 00:25:55,076
Speaker 4: things I do, guys, is when I do these interviews.

474
00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:59,516
Speaker 4: They always wanted to know about my classical background. I said, okay,

475
00:25:59,596 --> 00:26:01,636
Speaker 4: you know, and and uh how I feel about it,

476
00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:04,156
Speaker 4: you know? And uh do I have no regrets? And

477
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:06,676
Speaker 4: do I miss it? All those courts I give our

478
00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:08,876
Speaker 4: small yes, I do miss it. I've made some wonderful

479
00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:11,836
Speaker 4: fore answer that I grew up with some great people

480
00:26:11,836 --> 00:26:13,476
Speaker 4: who are trying to play it better like I was.

481
00:26:13,716 --> 00:26:21,356
Speaker 4: You know, I missed the sound of the orchestra. That's

482
00:26:21,396 --> 00:26:24,796
Speaker 4: one thing to listen to a record. It's nothing to

483
00:26:24,836 --> 00:26:27,876
Speaker 4: be sitting right in the middle of the sound. That's

484
00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:33,396
Speaker 4: an incredible feeling. Man, I missed that, you know, but

485
00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:35,916
Speaker 4: they were not. But take what you do, just the interviewer,

486
00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:40,116
Speaker 4: this is nineteen sixty two, sixty three, sixty four, whatever

487
00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:42,716
Speaker 4: it was. Just take some pictures of the orchests. Go back,

488
00:26:42,956 --> 00:26:47,036
Speaker 4: go back ten years now. All orchestras had a photograph

489
00:26:47,076 --> 00:26:52,516
Speaker 4: for the orchestra for the promo Chicago, Philly, Cleveland, New York, Boston.

490
00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:55,276
Speaker 4: And you let me know how many minorities are in

491
00:26:55,276 --> 00:26:58,956
Speaker 4: those orchestras compared to the orchestras on the stage now,

492
00:26:58,956 --> 00:27:05,036
Speaker 4: whatever it would have been. And you think that's okay,

493
00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:08,436
Speaker 4: You think that didn't You think that hasn't made an

494
00:27:08,436 --> 00:27:14,076
Speaker 4: impression on May still And I said not. These schools

495
00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:20,236
Speaker 4: and it's not a propaganda's conversation. Now this is page three.

496
00:27:22,276 --> 00:27:25,556
Speaker 4: These schools are still turning out wonderful African American musician

497
00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 4: players to be primarily symphonie players or players. And if

498
00:27:31,876 --> 00:27:34,916
Speaker 4: you look at the number of photographs of these orchestras

499
00:27:36,076 --> 00:27:40,956
Speaker 4: at five year intervals, and the same five year intervals

500
00:27:40,956 --> 00:27:43,956
Speaker 4: that these schools are turning out these wonderful classical players

501
00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:45,476
Speaker 4: orchestral players to.

502
00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,036
Speaker 2: Be what happens to them.

503
00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:51,876
Speaker 4: According to these pictures, they're not working with Cleveland or

504
00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:59,556
Speaker 4: Philadelphia or New York or Boston or Los Angeles, where

505
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:05,956
Speaker 4: these kids what happened to them. The reason my picture

506
00:28:05,996 --> 00:28:08,956
Speaker 4: is not in these pictures, they're towing them out in

507
00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:11,556
Speaker 4: the ago that they weren't ready to hire color people.

508
00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:16,116
Speaker 4: That's why I'm not playing there. According to these pictures,

509
00:28:16,156 --> 00:28:19,076
Speaker 4: I'm looking at if I've got my shirt, like home glasses,

510
00:28:19,596 --> 00:28:23,676
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff. Nonhing's changed other than the

511
00:28:23,796 --> 00:28:28,356
Speaker 4: date of the calendar man, you know. So there's a

512
00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:32,276
Speaker 4: lot of work. There's a lot of work to be done.

513
00:28:33,156 --> 00:28:36,556
Speaker 4: And my footnote to this kind of conversation always kind

514
00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:38,956
Speaker 4: of ends up there because they think I just know

515
00:28:38,996 --> 00:28:44,476
Speaker 4: about miles and my life started in nineteen sixty three

516
00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:48,956
Speaker 4: to sixty eight and a half. You know, I as

517
00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:54,316
Speaker 4: to say I'm expearenced. I'm living that life, you know,

518
00:28:56,236 --> 00:28:59,436
Speaker 4: you know, and one of the things that keeps just

519
00:28:59,676 --> 00:29:06,436
Speaker 4: fire blue. You know in Nassian Torch that the hottest

520
00:29:06,476 --> 00:29:08,956
Speaker 4: fire is not to flame. It's this blue thing, you know,

521
00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:12,476
Speaker 4: one of the kind of things that keeps keeps me

522
00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:18,276
Speaker 4: on fire, that color. You know, our situations like when

523
00:29:18,276 --> 00:29:21,716
Speaker 4: I was doing commercial work in New York, New Orchestra's

524
00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:24,436
Speaker 4: doing stuff bix bix scores in New York. You know,

525
00:29:25,436 --> 00:29:27,476
Speaker 4: there has a sex us of a se base section

526
00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:31,156
Speaker 4: of uh. They were from four to five players A

527
00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:34,556
Speaker 4: and UH. I was known as the hot jazz player

528
00:29:34,596 --> 00:29:36,436
Speaker 4: in town. So they wanted to know what I'm They

529
00:29:36,436 --> 00:29:37,956
Speaker 4: wanna know what I'm doing there.

530
00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:38,276
Speaker 2: You know.

531
00:29:39,116 --> 00:29:41,796
Speaker 4: So the the the the the the game was guys

532
00:29:41,836 --> 00:29:46,156
Speaker 4: that the everyone who were not specifically assigned their first chair,

533
00:29:47,516 --> 00:29:49,716
Speaker 4: they got there earlier so they could be the first chair.

534
00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:53,316
Speaker 4: That means you got the best money, highest paid, you

535
00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:55,076
Speaker 4: got a little more respect from the orchestra, could do

536
00:29:55,116 --> 00:29:57,756
Speaker 4: the first chair violin as a base play, whatever where

537
00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:00,316
Speaker 4: it was, you got a chance to make the boweling,

538
00:30:00,436 --> 00:30:02,156
Speaker 4: the fingering you were. That was all on you. And

539
00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:05,276
Speaker 4: the remaining four or five people in the section. Their

540
00:30:05,356 --> 00:30:08,436
Speaker 4: job was to say yes, yes, yes, yes, you know

541
00:30:09,476 --> 00:30:12,596
Speaker 4: A and UH. Because I was either number four or

542
00:30:12,596 --> 00:30:16,556
Speaker 4: five on the list of important players. You know, I

543
00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:20,876
Speaker 4: I I didn't feel that. Uh, they thought I'd be

544
00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:23,636
Speaker 4: along there cause I just finished I said with Miles

545
00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:28,516
Speaker 4: Miles Davis last night, or or Randy Weston or Herbian Man, whoever,

546
00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:31,476
Speaker 4: whoever the gig was for that week. You know. So

547
00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:34,996
Speaker 4: one day I had enough, So t the sessions were

548
00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:37,196
Speaker 4: like nine to nine to one and two to five,

549
00:30:38,316 --> 00:30:39,916
Speaker 4: and you come back and you do the lunch. You know,

550
00:30:39,956 --> 00:30:44,156
Speaker 4: I said, Okay, guys, I got this. I'm I'm telling me,

551
00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:47,236
Speaker 4: you know. So we took a break at one one o'clock,

552
00:30:47,316 --> 00:30:50,156
Speaker 4: you know, and I know that uh about twelve thirty

553
00:30:50,316 --> 00:30:53,036
Speaker 4: one o'clock they gonna start filtering and get for the

554
00:30:53,036 --> 00:30:55,676
Speaker 4: next happen. You know, I get there before these base

555
00:30:55,676 --> 00:30:59,796
Speaker 4: prients get there. Now, while I hadn't been in an

556
00:30:59,876 --> 00:31:02,556
Speaker 4: orchestra seriously for like three or four years, I never

557
00:31:02,596 --> 00:31:06,196
Speaker 4: forgot the library, and I knew all the things that

558
00:31:06,356 --> 00:31:10,116
Speaker 4: base priers had the audition to be accepted. I know

559
00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:12,396
Speaker 4: that stuff. Man, I just didn't put in the trash.

560
00:31:12,396 --> 00:31:15,116
Speaker 4: Can just stort part of my uh DNA, you know.

561
00:31:17,116 --> 00:31:18,796
Speaker 4: So what I decided to do is just give them

562
00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:21,556
Speaker 4: a lesson of what my capacity was in my experience.

563
00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:24,556
Speaker 4: So I just said I'm selling in the last chair

564
00:31:24,756 --> 00:31:27,116
Speaker 4: cause that was my seat at the film, you know, okay,

565
00:31:27,636 --> 00:31:30,796
Speaker 4: And I played three or four orchestral excerpts through the keys,

566
00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:37,436
Speaker 4: and I just let it. That's that's my statement. M

567
00:31:39,276 --> 00:31:40,596
Speaker 4: that's him. I said, hey, where you go? I said,

568
00:31:40,716 --> 00:31:42,396
Speaker 4: I got a gig my to Berlin. Then I I

569
00:31:42,436 --> 00:31:46,636
Speaker 4: can't stay here. You know. That's the footnote. That's kind

570
00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:50,996
Speaker 4: of conversation. So yes, I'm still affected by that. You

571
00:31:51,036 --> 00:31:55,476
Speaker 4: can't let that go. If you let it go, it

572
00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:58,076
Speaker 4: continues somewhere else and someone who can't handle it. And

573
00:31:58,836 --> 00:32:01,596
Speaker 4: I hate to thank guys of how much talent that's

574
00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:05,436
Speaker 4: not available to a public of listening music because they're

575
00:32:05,476 --> 00:32:08,516
Speaker 4: not they're not the uh cause they're probably of the

576
00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:14,476
Speaker 4: minority string section, string player, you know. Uh. Again, the

577
00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:18,556
Speaker 4: pictures are slowly having a little more representative of a

578
00:32:18,676 --> 00:32:24,036
Speaker 4: broader musical ability of players in minority community who deserve

579
00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:26,836
Speaker 4: to be in these chairs. Like these other guys and

580
00:32:26,916 --> 00:32:32,556
Speaker 4: gals are gal singular, you know, but I think, uh,

581
00:32:34,196 --> 00:32:37,996
Speaker 4: this blue part of the sling torch, I think is

582
00:32:38,076 --> 00:32:44,796
Speaker 4: necessary for me. You know, I enjoy the memories and

583
00:32:44,836 --> 00:32:47,476
Speaker 4: I don't regret not being able to have those memories live.

584
00:32:48,716 --> 00:32:50,236
Speaker 4: Matter is that they wanted to hire me and I

585
00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:54,916
Speaker 4: passed the auditions. They couldn't afford me. I mean they

586
00:32:54,956 --> 00:32:59,196
Speaker 4: we could not afford what I get. I'm bringing a

587
00:32:59,236 --> 00:33:04,716
Speaker 4: whole whole other vibe to this orchestra and what they

588
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:09,876
Speaker 4: stand for. I'm more famous than the conductor. What does

589
00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:16,276
Speaker 4: that cost?

590
00:33:16,596 --> 00:33:19,276
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from Ron Carter after

591
00:33:19,316 --> 00:33:25,796
Speaker 1: the break. We're back with more from Ron Carter. Down

592
00:33:26,036 --> 00:33:29,796
Speaker 1: was and me? How do you contriue the blue flame

593
00:33:30,756 --> 00:33:34,956
Speaker 1: that they keeps you from here? How do you keep

594
00:33:34,956 --> 00:33:39,036
Speaker 1: that burning without burning yourself?

595
00:33:39,396 --> 00:33:45,556
Speaker 4: The DNA that helps make keep a balance, you know, uh,

596
00:33:47,476 --> 00:33:51,956
Speaker 4: balance meaning there's always someone out there, some young kid

597
00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:57,076
Speaker 4: of color, you know, who was who was going through

598
00:33:57,876 --> 00:34:04,356
Speaker 4: what I went through sixty years ago, and if they're

599
00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:06,676
Speaker 4: doing any homework and do any research, because it's not

600
00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:10,276
Speaker 4: so available to them, because you know, here's some person

601
00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,476
Speaker 4: who went through this kind of experience that I'm going

602
00:34:13,556 --> 00:34:17,636
Speaker 4: through sixty years later, he found somewhere else for his talent.

603
00:34:19,516 --> 00:34:23,876
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that there can be a good jazz player.

604
00:34:25,196 --> 00:34:26,836
Speaker 4: I mean they may turn out to be a better writer.

605
00:34:28,316 --> 00:34:33,556
Speaker 4: I'll put their skills into being a composer. Or a

606
00:34:33,556 --> 00:34:37,516
Speaker 4: better teacher. It just says them know that there's still

607
00:34:37,556 --> 00:34:41,196
Speaker 4: the way to be involved in the community of some kind,

608
00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:44,916
Speaker 4: even though it's not the one that you instanly chose,

609
00:34:45,916 --> 00:34:49,076
Speaker 4: and someone else made that choice kind of for you.

610
00:34:49,516 --> 00:34:51,756
Speaker 4: They threw you, and they threw you into another train track.

611
00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:53,236
Speaker 4: That's okay.

612
00:34:54,236 --> 00:34:57,916
Speaker 1: Did you feel like a did jazz playing the gig

613
00:34:57,996 --> 00:34:59,756
Speaker 1: and you were doing and eventually I mean, you know,

614
00:35:00,516 --> 00:35:02,156
Speaker 1: did that ever feel like a consolation?

615
00:35:02,516 --> 00:35:05,436
Speaker 4: Early on, I felt like this one I'm supposed to be.

616
00:35:07,796 --> 00:35:07,916
Speaker 3: Now.

617
00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:10,396
Speaker 4: I never took it as a a great second choice.

618
00:35:11,316 --> 00:35:12,716
Speaker 4: I'm saying those guys missed it.

619
00:35:13,156 --> 00:35:18,476
Speaker 3: Yeah, you felt a natural affinity for it certain.

620
00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:20,316
Speaker 4: Parts, yes, but I understood to do what I was

621
00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:23,156
Speaker 4: doing they required another kind of level of work and commitment.

622
00:35:24,676 --> 00:35:27,636
Speaker 4: It's one thing trying to stand what the right note

623
00:35:27,676 --> 00:35:30,756
Speaker 4: could be some other things for other patients to keep

624
00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:31,356
Speaker 4: looking for it.

625
00:35:34,876 --> 00:35:37,436
Speaker 3: Did you listen to other styles of music, like when

626
00:35:37,436 --> 00:35:40,196
Speaker 3: you were a kid, did you listen to the c KLW?

627
00:35:40,396 --> 00:35:43,556
Speaker 4: And probably, But at the time, you know, church was

628
00:35:43,556 --> 00:35:46,356
Speaker 4: still very important in my my and my family's, in

629
00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:50,636
Speaker 4: my community's life, you know, So I knew all the

630
00:35:50,676 --> 00:35:54,236
Speaker 4: church songs, all the words, you know, uh at the

631
00:35:54,276 --> 00:35:57,796
Speaker 4: time my conversation. Then then then all the world changes.

632
00:35:57,876 --> 00:36:00,196
Speaker 4: But I understood the harmony. You know. It was kind

633
00:36:00,236 --> 00:36:04,076
Speaker 4: of complicated, you know, and I never went to the

634
00:36:04,156 --> 00:36:06,196
Speaker 4: rehearsals because I was playing show and the stuff doing.

635
00:36:06,236 --> 00:36:08,476
Speaker 4: You know. So that kind of muty was always in

636
00:36:08,556 --> 00:36:14,076
Speaker 4: my in my family and my community. Uh. No one

637
00:36:14,156 --> 00:36:18,516
Speaker 4: said jazz is the devil's music in myles or uh

638
00:36:18,756 --> 00:36:20,876
Speaker 4: uh uh. When they when they would take the little

639
00:36:20,916 --> 00:36:23,996
Speaker 4: kids to the uh Symphony Hall, Fisher Theater and they

640
00:36:24,156 --> 00:36:28,156
Speaker 4: in the in the Detroit to see the orchestra, they

641
00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:30,476
Speaker 4: encourage this, this is what the orchestra sound like.

642
00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:31,636
Speaker 2: They were.

643
00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:34,556
Speaker 4: They weren't saying that you can't be in there. But

644
00:36:34,716 --> 00:36:37,236
Speaker 4: at the time of twelve or fourteen, you don't see

645
00:36:37,236 --> 00:36:41,116
Speaker 4: anybody who looks like you, m a and they aren't

646
00:36:41,156 --> 00:36:44,036
Speaker 4: planning that seed. They're just showing you an orchestra.

647
00:36:44,836 --> 00:36:44,956
Speaker 3: You know.

648
00:36:45,156 --> 00:36:46,636
Speaker 4: Where you take it from now that's kind of up

649
00:36:46,676 --> 00:36:51,276
Speaker 4: to you. Your background, your interest, your the determination, you know,

650
00:36:51,476 --> 00:36:53,276
Speaker 4: your skill level wherever it is. You know, do you

651
00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:54,916
Speaker 4: wanna go through all this what whatever?

652
00:36:55,036 --> 00:36:55,236
Speaker 3: You know?

653
00:36:56,276 --> 00:36:58,356
Speaker 4: But no, I don't. I don't think that my career

654
00:36:58,396 --> 00:37:03,476
Speaker 4: now it's that. I never thought it as a uh

655
00:37:03,716 --> 00:37:07,276
Speaker 4: uh Constellation prize.

656
00:37:07,396 --> 00:37:09,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think.

657
00:37:09,156 --> 00:37:10,636
Speaker 4: Of how much those guys missed it.

658
00:37:10,956 --> 00:37:12,556
Speaker 2: Yeah.

659
00:37:12,196 --> 00:37:14,756
Speaker 1: Well, when you go back to Detroit over the years,

660
00:37:15,276 --> 00:37:17,516
Speaker 1: I mean as your career starting is, you're going back

661
00:37:17,876 --> 00:37:21,036
Speaker 1: late fifties, early sixties through the sixties, and you're seeing

662
00:37:21,876 --> 00:37:23,996
Speaker 1: like Motown, for instance, happening in Detroit.

663
00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:24,236
Speaker 4: Was that?

664
00:37:25,476 --> 00:37:27,596
Speaker 1: I mean were you Were you watching that at all

665
00:37:27,636 --> 00:37:28,636
Speaker 1: and interesting at all?

666
00:37:28,676 --> 00:37:30,756
Speaker 2: Not at all at Detroit.

667
00:37:30,796 --> 00:37:34,196
Speaker 4: I wasn't a jazz player, and so when I would

668
00:37:34,236 --> 00:37:37,156
Speaker 4: go back for summer vacations, I would never go to

669
00:37:37,236 --> 00:37:39,436
Speaker 4: the jazz clubs. I had a job by the one

670
00:37:39,476 --> 00:37:42,836
Speaker 4: summer I spent as a progression director. My job is

671
00:37:42,916 --> 00:37:45,996
Speaker 4: go to the parks at a park at seven o'clock.

672
00:37:45,996 --> 00:37:49,156
Speaker 4: At eight o'clock, take out all the gids about the baseball, bat,

673
00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:52,116
Speaker 4: the tub, the gloves, all that stuff, and mine to

674
00:37:52,156 --> 00:37:56,956
Speaker 4: the kids behavior from nine o'clock to three o'clock. When

675
00:37:56,956 --> 00:37:58,796
Speaker 4: that time came up, put stuff away and do it

676
00:37:58,796 --> 00:38:02,436
Speaker 4: again tomorrow. So I kept my health together, I got

677
00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:05,676
Speaker 4: my physical skill together. You know, I was older than

678
00:38:05,716 --> 00:38:07,316
Speaker 4: most of the kids, so that was really the old

679
00:38:07,356 --> 00:38:13,116
Speaker 4: man who's controlling that. The bad Mitton said, you know

680
00:38:13,516 --> 00:38:15,156
Speaker 4: the guy who made us pick up the bases after

681
00:38:15,196 --> 00:38:17,916
Speaker 4: the softball game. That I was okay with that because

682
00:38:17,916 --> 00:38:20,276
Speaker 4: that's what I was. You know, I just want to

683
00:38:20,316 --> 00:38:20,996
Speaker 4: be better than they were.

684
00:38:21,036 --> 00:38:21,596
Speaker 2: Add it you.

685
00:38:24,316 --> 00:38:26,276
Speaker 3: Did, did you bump into James Jamison?

686
00:38:26,556 --> 00:38:29,036
Speaker 4: None of those man, I didn't know any of those people.

687
00:38:30,716 --> 00:38:32,276
Speaker 3: Where was the people you went to high school? Was

688
00:38:32,316 --> 00:38:34,556
Speaker 3: like Alice Coltrane, I didn't know her.

689
00:38:34,676 --> 00:38:38,076
Speaker 4: My got Ira Jackson suophone players started playing after a while.

690
00:38:38,876 --> 00:38:41,716
Speaker 4: Kirk Leitzing was my classmate. He used to do his

691
00:38:41,796 --> 00:38:50,436
Speaker 4: homework homework. Uh, my classical my classmates of cast, they

692
00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:55,916
Speaker 4: were all classical players like I was. And uh some

693
00:38:55,956 --> 00:38:58,636
Speaker 4: of them went on to a major orchestras and conductors,

694
00:38:58,636 --> 00:39:01,716
Speaker 4: the major's orchestras. Uh, some of them. A couple of

695
00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:05,116
Speaker 4: them went to, uh we're in the Washington the DC Symphony.

696
00:39:05,796 --> 00:39:09,116
Speaker 4: You know, a couple of them in the major orchestra

697
00:39:09,716 --> 00:39:12,916
Speaker 4: scattered throughout the world. I was the only one of

698
00:39:12,956 --> 00:39:18,316
Speaker 4: my class who went to jazz to this level wherever

699
00:39:18,316 --> 00:39:22,356
Speaker 4: the level that is. But I kind of lost track

700
00:39:22,396 --> 00:39:24,276
Speaker 4: of those guys and none of none of 'em did

701
00:39:24,316 --> 00:39:25,796
Speaker 4: this for a living m you know.

702
00:39:26,356 --> 00:39:27,716
Speaker 3: And you didn't know Paul Chambers.

703
00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:32,036
Speaker 4: My father knew Hispanically, were both bus drivers. Yeah, and

704
00:39:32,116 --> 00:39:34,556
Speaker 4: I didn't meet Paul in New York officially, but we

705
00:39:34,756 --> 00:39:36,836
Speaker 4: never hung out cause I had a family. He had

706
00:39:36,876 --> 00:39:38,556
Speaker 4: a family. He was trapped with Miles all the time.

707
00:39:38,716 --> 00:39:40,676
Speaker 4: M I came to New York. I was still a

708
00:39:40,676 --> 00:39:42,316
Speaker 4: student of Manhattan for a master's.

709
00:39:42,556 --> 00:39:43,316
Speaker 2: Yeah.

710
00:39:43,476 --> 00:39:45,996
Speaker 4: Uh, I did two gigs, but I was not where

711
00:39:45,996 --> 00:39:49,276
Speaker 4: he was in the in the spectrum of the jazz community,

712
00:39:49,756 --> 00:39:55,756
Speaker 4: you know. Having met Sam Jones and in Rochester, I

713
00:39:55,756 --> 00:39:57,636
Speaker 4: came to New York and at some point a year

714
00:39:57,676 --> 00:40:01,636
Speaker 4: or so later, Uh, Sam was working at Monk and

715
00:40:01,636 --> 00:40:03,436
Speaker 4: at some point he got sick and he called me

716
00:40:03,476 --> 00:40:06,596
Speaker 4: to c I meet this gig for him. I said, well, Monk,

717
00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:09,396
Speaker 4: he said, yeah, you can do that. So I said okay.

718
00:40:09,476 --> 00:40:11,956
Speaker 4: So I got my base and a cab and went

719
00:40:12,036 --> 00:40:14,116
Speaker 4: in the subway and went down to a place called

720
00:40:14,156 --> 00:40:17,036
Speaker 4: Circle in the Square, which is a block from the

721
00:40:17,116 --> 00:40:20,796
Speaker 4: village gate. Cause this nice small theater, and I met

722
00:40:20,796 --> 00:40:22,956
Speaker 4: mister Monks and mister Monk, Sam Jones is sick, and

723
00:40:23,036 --> 00:40:26,036
Speaker 4: he called me the sub for him. He said, okay,

724
00:40:26,396 --> 00:40:29,396
Speaker 4: do you know my songs? I said, most of them.

725
00:40:29,396 --> 00:40:31,076
Speaker 4: He said, well tonight we'll find out which ones you

726
00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:36,436
Speaker 4: don't know, and he was okay. So we did next

727
00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:39,196
Speaker 4: week in Philadelphia for a week. So we getting this

728
00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:43,396
Speaker 4: kid getting Barons' car as five thirty drive to drive

729
00:40:43,476 --> 00:40:47,476
Speaker 4: to uh the PEPs to show place in Philadelphia, do

730
00:40:47,636 --> 00:40:50,436
Speaker 4: two sets, getting her car and drive back to New

731
00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:52,276
Speaker 4: York cause I had a class in Manhattan at eight

732
00:40:52,276 --> 00:40:56,156
Speaker 4: o'clock in the morning. Did that for a week, but

733
00:40:56,236 --> 00:40:59,876
Speaker 4: they shore one Saturday. Yeah.

734
00:41:00,356 --> 00:41:03,156
Speaker 1: Another base Uh A bass player that you seem to

735
00:41:03,196 --> 00:41:06,636
Speaker 1: have an interesting relationship with early on was George da Vivier.

736
00:41:06,996 --> 00:41:09,796
Speaker 4: Yes, I saw George working with you. Did you go hambling?

737
00:41:09,836 --> 00:41:13,076
Speaker 4: And and uh uh I didn't know the drummer, but

738
00:41:13,116 --> 00:41:15,076
Speaker 4: the singer was uh Lena Horne.

739
00:41:15,356 --> 00:41:15,756
Speaker 2: Wow.

740
00:41:16,756 --> 00:41:21,316
Speaker 4: And George had had uh yell lieutenant sunglasses. Not only

741
00:41:21,316 --> 00:41:26,396
Speaker 4: did he play it great, he looked different a and uh.

742
00:41:26,596 --> 00:41:30,556
Speaker 4: Ultimately we became really good friends, I mean really close friends. Uh.

743
00:41:30,556 --> 00:41:33,036
Speaker 4: When he got sick, I was by his side, you know.

744
00:41:33,756 --> 00:41:35,756
Speaker 4: But he had a club called the Bass Fiddle up

745
00:41:35,796 --> 00:41:38,796
Speaker 4: on Saint Nicholas in about a hundred and thirty fourth Street,

746
00:41:39,676 --> 00:41:41,316
Speaker 4: and I would go back to the gigs to talk

747
00:41:41,356 --> 00:41:43,236
Speaker 4: with him from my music, and he would had a

748
00:41:43,316 --> 00:41:45,796
Speaker 4: juke box. They had all the jazz records on it.

749
00:41:46,636 --> 00:41:49,276
Speaker 4: He would play one. He said, Oh, young fella, how'd

750
00:41:49,316 --> 00:41:54,916
Speaker 4: you do that? I said, I said, Uh. MR said no, no, no, George,

751
00:41:55,676 --> 00:41:57,316
Speaker 4: Uh George, I just hear what I do and try

752
00:41:57,316 --> 00:41:58,836
Speaker 4: to find out how to make it work tomorrow night.

753
00:41:59,236 --> 00:42:01,396
Speaker 4: He love that kind of stuff. I was with him

754
00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:03,436
Speaker 4: on his bad days and his health days, you know.

755
00:42:03,516 --> 00:42:09,036
Speaker 4: And and uh uh. One of his last earthly beings

756
00:42:09,276 --> 00:42:12,716
Speaker 4: was a mona. Hinton and Milk were very great friends

757
00:42:12,716 --> 00:42:15,956
Speaker 4: of his. And somehow he had gotten really sick of

758
00:42:16,036 --> 00:42:19,596
Speaker 4: his home uptown and he couldn't get a cab t

759
00:42:19,596 --> 00:42:21,596
Speaker 4: to couldn't get anybody to come pick him up and

760
00:42:21,636 --> 00:42:26,116
Speaker 4: take him to the hospital. So i'mnna call me at home. Said,

761
00:42:26,116 --> 00:42:28,756
Speaker 4: can you come to where we are uptown, to George's house,

762
00:42:28,876 --> 00:42:32,196
Speaker 4: the apartmentere he was, and take George to the hospital

763
00:42:32,236 --> 00:42:36,116
Speaker 4: cause we can't get a cab. M She said absolutely.

764
00:42:36,236 --> 00:42:37,636
Speaker 4: So I got my son in the car, put the

765
00:42:37,636 --> 00:42:40,676
Speaker 4: back seat down the little Volval, we drove uptown to

766
00:42:40,716 --> 00:42:42,996
Speaker 4: George's house and ultimately they found a cab driver who

767
00:42:42,996 --> 00:42:45,276
Speaker 4: will take him to the hospital and he was last.

768
00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:49,316
Speaker 4: He didn't survive much past that time, you know. Uh,

769
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:51,796
Speaker 4: but yeah he was. He was uh a person whose

770
00:42:51,916 --> 00:42:55,796
Speaker 4: imagery of the base was really really impactful. This is

771
00:42:55,796 --> 00:42:59,436
Speaker 4: what the base can do in the group. A and uh,

772
00:43:00,116 --> 00:43:05,396
Speaker 4: we didn't have a social connection in terms of going

773
00:43:05,596 --> 00:43:07,316
Speaker 4: going by south for Dannel or come to my hout.

774
00:43:07,356 --> 00:43:11,356
Speaker 4: And it was always com to the base. H how

775
00:43:11,396 --> 00:43:14,356
Speaker 4: the base does in the groups. The white groups are

776
00:43:14,356 --> 00:43:18,516
Speaker 4: called him. They needed him there cause he was the

777
00:43:18,556 --> 00:43:21,716
Speaker 4: best at what there was. He had what they needed.

778
00:43:22,796 --> 00:43:25,236
Speaker 4: There's a a very important thing to see it take place,

779
00:43:26,156 --> 00:43:29,476
Speaker 4: given being told that the orchestra are not ready to

780
00:43:29,516 --> 00:43:30,476
Speaker 4: hire colored people yet.

781
00:43:30,716 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm un in them in New York.

782
00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:33,956
Speaker 4: Man, with all these great players come to New York,

783
00:43:34,516 --> 00:43:36,156
Speaker 4: I see this guy playing in the same base I'm

784
00:43:36,236 --> 00:43:38,516
Speaker 4: kind of playing. And he gets these gigs cause the

785
00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:40,596
Speaker 4: white guys know, they didn't need him in the orchestra

786
00:43:41,396 --> 00:43:42,876
Speaker 4: and the and the S and the and their group.

787
00:43:43,356 --> 00:43:45,076
Speaker 4: That's quite a.

788
00:43:45,356 --> 00:43:47,956
Speaker 2: That kind of well white jazz groups ja.

789
00:43:48,636 --> 00:43:50,556
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but the white guys were badly the

790
00:43:50,836 --> 00:43:52,876
Speaker 4: Benny Goodman the kind of cats you know though, that

791
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:58,636
Speaker 4: that spectrum of Yeah, the music scene, the big time guys. Yeah,

792
00:43:59,036 --> 00:44:01,596
Speaker 4: they call George to call Milt cause they knew they

793
00:44:01,596 --> 00:44:05,076
Speaker 4: were bring something into their band that nobody else give 'em.

794
00:44:05,196 --> 00:44:11,356
Speaker 3: Yeah, left an impression. I got that.

795
00:44:13,676 --> 00:44:15,476
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with the rest of our conversation

796
00:44:15,556 --> 00:44:22,836
Speaker 1: with Ron Carter after this last break, We're back with

797
00:44:22,876 --> 00:44:25,116
Speaker 1: the rest of our conversation with Ron Carter.

798
00:44:26,236 --> 00:44:30,036
Speaker 3: For listeners who don't really know when you when you

799
00:44:30,116 --> 00:44:33,876
Speaker 3: talk about the role of the base in a in

800
00:44:33,956 --> 00:44:36,436
Speaker 3: a band, I don't. I don't know that the people

801
00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:40,116
Speaker 3: really understand everything that that a base can do besides

802
00:44:40,196 --> 00:44:43,116
Speaker 3: just hold down low end or something like that.

803
00:44:43,316 --> 00:44:46,836
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I kind of don't mind that. I mean,

804
00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:52,596
Speaker 4: I go to concert occasionally classic concerts, and I've gone

805
00:44:52,636 --> 00:44:54,596
Speaker 4: to the offense I can't and I don't see the

806
00:44:54,636 --> 00:44:59,636
Speaker 4: audience specifically one what kind of basse player, what kind

807
00:44:59,636 --> 00:45:02,276
Speaker 4: of based does the bass player I have? And what

808
00:45:02,356 --> 00:45:05,076
Speaker 4: kind of strengths is he using? And what kind of

809
00:45:05,076 --> 00:45:07,396
Speaker 4: fingering does he have? I don't see them doing that.

810
00:45:07,516 --> 00:45:10,636
Speaker 4: You know, only the he has audience is forced to

811
00:45:10,676 --> 00:45:14,676
Speaker 4: be that kind of research person for the person for

812
00:45:14,716 --> 00:45:16,916
Speaker 4: his don't you need to know what I do? Just

813
00:45:17,196 --> 00:45:17,956
Speaker 4: can you like the.

814
00:45:17,876 --> 00:45:19,396
Speaker 3: Results of it? That's what I'm concerned with.

815
00:45:20,636 --> 00:45:24,116
Speaker 4: Having said that, though, you can't just accept that as

816
00:45:24,156 --> 00:45:26,956
Speaker 4: being the way it is. And I try to respond

817
00:45:26,996 --> 00:45:31,516
Speaker 4: to them in an adult fashion, not not sandbox styles.

818
00:45:31,796 --> 00:45:33,876
Speaker 4: I try to explain to them that just okay, I'll

819
00:45:33,876 --> 00:45:34,076
Speaker 4: tell you.

820
00:45:34,076 --> 00:45:34,476
Speaker 2: What you do.

821
00:45:34,876 --> 00:45:39,116
Speaker 4: You person, watch the next football game, you two. You know,

822
00:45:39,796 --> 00:45:42,956
Speaker 4: there's a guy who's clearly the quarterback. What he's doing,

823
00:45:42,996 --> 00:45:44,836
Speaker 4: he's got if it's in his ear, he's got ear

824
00:45:44,996 --> 00:45:48,716
Speaker 4: ear piece. That's someone upstairs, and and the thing and

825
00:45:48,756 --> 00:45:50,716
Speaker 4: the coach. I tell him what I played the call?

826
00:45:52,436 --> 00:45:55,196
Speaker 4: Uh yeah, and he's doing, has this honest sleeve he has.

827
00:45:55,236 --> 00:45:57,636
Speaker 4: He has the the details here some kind of way,

828
00:45:58,476 --> 00:46:02,716
Speaker 4: and he's called shots wherever he does. Everybody must buy

829
00:46:02,796 --> 00:46:05,316
Speaker 4: that cause he just got the word from heaven or

830
00:46:05,596 --> 00:46:09,396
Speaker 4: that this is what it is. Okay, he got quint

831
00:46:09,436 --> 00:46:12,876
Speaker 4: out on the stage, the main net to cost the tune.

832
00:46:13,676 --> 00:46:17,716
Speaker 4: And there's no one doing like this but this guy

833
00:46:17,876 --> 00:46:24,116
Speaker 4: in his head. Imagine that. I try to him to

834
00:46:24,116 --> 00:46:24,956
Speaker 4: see that kind of angle.

835
00:46:25,236 --> 00:46:26,116
Speaker 2: You have all the power.

836
00:46:26,956 --> 00:46:32,676
Speaker 4: Indeed, and they understand that they're rating four guys buying

837
00:46:32,756 --> 00:46:37,636
Speaker 4: largely understand that some of them don't. That's okay.

838
00:46:38,516 --> 00:46:42,076
Speaker 3: What happens when you start going in a certain direction

839
00:46:42,676 --> 00:46:45,796
Speaker 3: and you feel the other players aren't there.

840
00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:48,756
Speaker 4: I don't want to go do that. Yeah, I accept that.

841
00:46:49,356 --> 00:46:52,516
Speaker 4: Maybe they want me to two p all night. I'll

842
00:46:52,516 --> 00:46:57,116
Speaker 4: do it. Footnote to this answer. I was doing that

843
00:46:57,236 --> 00:47:00,916
Speaker 4: date with a singer at some point, and the process

844
00:47:01,156 --> 00:47:05,956
Speaker 4: was they would have an arranger coming from California, make

845
00:47:06,036 --> 00:47:09,916
Speaker 4: some sketches for the arrangement, and the singer would come

846
00:47:09,956 --> 00:47:12,476
Speaker 4: in and rhythm sec make this. They'd make this track

847
00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:15,636
Speaker 4: with him singing, and the arrange would take the tracks

848
00:47:15,676 --> 00:47:17,876
Speaker 4: back out to California and filling in with the orchestra

849
00:47:17,996 --> 00:47:21,676
Speaker 4: the stuff. You know, well, I'll joined this part on

850
00:47:21,716 --> 00:47:24,956
Speaker 4: this specific date. And uh, the rhythm section I was

851
00:47:24,996 --> 00:47:26,716
Speaker 4: with was a really a bunch of good guys in

852
00:47:26,756 --> 00:47:31,636
Speaker 4: New York. That's always the case. And we communally had

853
00:47:31,636 --> 00:47:35,356
Speaker 4: decided that these changes were kind of stiff and we

854
00:47:35,396 --> 00:47:37,076
Speaker 4: didn't wanna do that for six hours.

855
00:47:38,036 --> 00:47:38,196
Speaker 2: You know.

856
00:47:38,276 --> 00:47:40,996
Speaker 4: Our job was kind of making hip for us, cause

857
00:47:41,036 --> 00:47:42,076
Speaker 4: we got to play this stuff.

858
00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:42,316
Speaker 3: You know.

859
00:47:42,956 --> 00:47:45,036
Speaker 4: We'd do four or five tunes in the day, just

860
00:47:45,076 --> 00:47:47,956
Speaker 4: like two days for my day and wet Tuesday, you know.

861
00:47:48,556 --> 00:47:50,196
Speaker 4: So the second day we'd come in and and the

862
00:47:50,316 --> 00:47:52,916
Speaker 4: range cast me over. Said hey, hey, do you have

863
00:47:52,956 --> 00:47:54,956
Speaker 4: a seat, And I said, I'm feeling pretty good. You know,

864
00:47:55,196 --> 00:47:58,556
Speaker 4: now much talk? He said, you know? Uh, I like

865
00:47:58,636 --> 00:48:01,876
Speaker 4: where you play, that's why you're here. But I like

866
00:48:01,956 --> 00:48:06,356
Speaker 4: my baselines on our route. I said, well, well, so

867
00:48:06,356 --> 00:48:08,836
Speaker 4: so I'm gonna gon do those songs again. Say I'll

868
00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:11,516
Speaker 4: tell you one. I'll play your ship until you can't

869
00:48:11,556 --> 00:48:18,436
Speaker 4: stand it, and then you tell me I'm free. So

870
00:48:18,476 --> 00:48:22,156
Speaker 4: we did two, a few songs, he said free, and

871
00:48:22,196 --> 00:48:26,236
Speaker 4: we became dear friends, I mean really dear friends. Yeah,

872
00:48:26,396 --> 00:48:32,796
Speaker 4: to this day, nothing to tell you. But my point

873
00:48:33,156 --> 00:48:35,196
Speaker 4: was I played what they want, and I have to

874
00:48:35,236 --> 00:48:37,116
Speaker 4: trust that their judgment, that maybe I have a better

875
00:48:37,156 --> 00:48:38,316
Speaker 4: idea to do it than they have.

876
00:48:39,236 --> 00:48:41,796
Speaker 1: What about the times you're not so sure? I read

877
00:48:42,516 --> 00:48:45,196
Speaker 1: or heard or read somewhere I can't remember now where

878
00:48:45,196 --> 00:48:46,996
Speaker 1: I saw this or read it. Where you said the

879
00:48:46,996 --> 00:48:50,156
Speaker 1: first time you played with Herbie that he was playing chords,

880
00:48:50,196 --> 00:48:52,716
Speaker 1: you weren't quite sure what they were, and so then

881
00:48:52,756 --> 00:48:55,916
Speaker 1: you weren't quite sure what you should be doing exactly

882
00:48:56,276 --> 00:48:56,796
Speaker 1: just early on.

883
00:48:58,116 --> 00:49:03,436
Speaker 4: Uh, I'm not sure that's quite an exact translation. I

884
00:49:03,436 --> 00:49:05,596
Speaker 4: think what I might have kind of conveyed to the

885
00:49:05,756 --> 00:49:09,236
Speaker 4: question or questionnaire was I know what he's doing, but

886
00:49:09,236 --> 00:49:11,156
Speaker 4: I couldn't figure out the best note to make that work.

887
00:49:12,876 --> 00:49:15,716
Speaker 4: And uh, I didn't understand that he trusted me that

888
00:49:15,796 --> 00:49:18,316
Speaker 4: much that he would go with my way because he

889
00:49:18,356 --> 00:49:19,836
Speaker 4: didn't know where I was going other than that it

890
00:49:19,876 --> 00:49:22,796
Speaker 4: wasn't what he his way was. And at some point,

891
00:49:23,396 --> 00:49:27,156
Speaker 4: without discussion the rehearsal, we decided it was decided that

892
00:49:27,556 --> 00:49:30,116
Speaker 4: my way wasn't a bad way, and then it could

893
00:49:30,116 --> 00:49:31,916
Speaker 4: work for everybody.

894
00:49:32,956 --> 00:49:35,796
Speaker 3: So there was some conversation and dialogue in GM.

895
00:49:35,716 --> 00:49:37,436
Speaker 4: But not not what people would think, you know. We

896
00:49:37,476 --> 00:49:40,276
Speaker 4: didn't have sound with a blackboard and listened to ultimate

897
00:49:40,316 --> 00:49:42,716
Speaker 4: texts and figured out what now that we.

898
00:49:42,636 --> 00:49:43,556
Speaker 2: Had a life.

899
00:49:43,676 --> 00:49:46,916
Speaker 4: Yeah, when the gig was over, Man Herbert just got married.

900
00:49:46,916 --> 00:49:49,556
Speaker 4: It got a big record, very big record. Tony was

901
00:49:49,596 --> 00:49:51,836
Speaker 4: living the stair at someone at Miles's house. I had

902
00:49:51,836 --> 00:49:54,196
Speaker 4: this new family. I've gone home out doing other stuff

903
00:49:54,236 --> 00:49:58,596
Speaker 4: other than Miles's band. There wasn't that kind of necessary

904
00:49:59,116 --> 00:50:03,676
Speaker 4: additional time to feel that the band could do something

905
00:50:03,676 --> 00:50:07,876
Speaker 4: that's really great, something really nice. Ultimately, it was a

906
00:50:07,876 --> 00:50:11,676
Speaker 4: little past night, yes, but we didn't understand. I didn't

907
00:50:11,756 --> 00:50:15,116
Speaker 4: understand the ramifications of what we were doing as we speak,

908
00:50:15,716 --> 00:50:20,596
Speaker 4: you know, But again, our relationship was based on being

909
00:50:20,716 --> 00:50:24,036
Speaker 4: wild for other guys night in.

910
00:50:24,556 --> 00:50:25,236
Speaker 2: And man out.

911
00:50:26,956 --> 00:50:31,476
Speaker 1: There's There was a compilation of put out kind of

912
00:50:31,476 --> 00:50:33,556
Speaker 1: recently handful of years ago, made five years ago called

913
00:50:33,636 --> 00:50:37,396
Speaker 1: Bootleg five. It was a Miles Davis re release and

914
00:50:37,436 --> 00:50:42,236
Speaker 1: as a bunch of session as a bunch of recordings

915
00:50:42,236 --> 00:50:44,156
Speaker 1: of you guys talking in between in the.

916
00:50:44,116 --> 00:50:44,636
Speaker 2: Studio and.

917
00:50:48,876 --> 00:50:51,316
Speaker 1: Uh, it's it's you can tell listening to it that

918
00:50:51,316 --> 00:50:54,796
Speaker 1: you guys weren't one hundred aware of what you were

919
00:50:55,556 --> 00:50:58,156
Speaker 1: contributing to the world of music because it was all

920
00:50:58,276 --> 00:50:59,196
Speaker 1: very casual, you know.

921
00:50:59,396 --> 00:51:02,076
Speaker 4: Well, I think what I hope that people would understand

922
00:51:02,436 --> 00:51:06,956
Speaker 4: from that particular set of records discs is that while

923
00:51:07,076 --> 00:51:11,796
Speaker 4: Miles was the band of leader, he was not leading

924
00:51:11,796 --> 00:51:15,596
Speaker 4: the band. He took information from everybody. He said, what

925
00:51:15,676 --> 00:51:18,316
Speaker 4: about this, or don't do that? Try to He was

926
00:51:18,596 --> 00:51:22,916
Speaker 4: open to any suggestions. We thought they would make not

927
00:51:22,956 --> 00:51:27,116
Speaker 4: just the music different, but absolve him from the responsibility

928
00:51:27,116 --> 00:51:31,756
Speaker 4: of making everything happen, you know, not that he couldn't,

929
00:51:31,836 --> 00:51:34,076
Speaker 4: not that he had did, but with this select bunch

930
00:51:34,116 --> 00:51:39,876
Speaker 4: of four other guys, they relieved him of that sole

931
00:51:39,996 --> 00:51:45,716
Speaker 4: responsibility of being not just the band leader, but leading

932
00:51:45,716 --> 00:51:46,036
Speaker 4: the band.

933
00:51:46,276 --> 00:51:47,556
Speaker 2: It's like a good basketball team.

934
00:51:47,596 --> 00:51:50,156
Speaker 4: The band was leading him and he understood that all

935
00:51:50,196 --> 00:51:51,636
Speaker 4: you got to do is man is be able to

936
00:51:51,676 --> 00:51:54,276
Speaker 4: hit a set shot and take you stand over there,

937
00:51:54,476 --> 00:51:55,396
Speaker 4: it's coming your way.

938
00:51:58,116 --> 00:52:01,556
Speaker 1: And t o too here. And it seemed like TiO Maceo, yeah,

939
00:52:01,556 --> 00:52:03,756
Speaker 1: would produce it. Like you know, he was involved quite

940
00:52:03,756 --> 00:52:04,156
Speaker 1: a bit too.

941
00:52:04,436 --> 00:52:06,556
Speaker 4: He was kind of having kind of kind of control

942
00:52:06,596 --> 00:52:11,956
Speaker 4: on some of the stuff and and and uh uh

943
00:52:09,436 --> 00:52:15,996
Speaker 4: uh budget. You know, it was time they had. He

944
00:52:16,076 --> 00:52:17,756
Speaker 4: wanted to make sure that everyone got back on time

945
00:52:17,796 --> 00:52:19,596
Speaker 4: from going out to get the drink or going out

946
00:52:19,596 --> 00:52:23,516
Speaker 4: to scent get lunch. Uh. He was kind of the

947
00:52:23,516 --> 00:52:27,596
Speaker 4: that the uh, the guy with the card that was

948
00:52:27,636 --> 00:52:31,156
Speaker 4: into the time machine you call that thing pushed the car. Yeah,

949
00:52:31,236 --> 00:52:34,036
Speaker 4: and he was the guy who organized the dates, book

950
00:52:34,076 --> 00:52:37,196
Speaker 4: the studio, time was there for the mixing. He did

951
00:52:37,236 --> 00:52:38,196
Speaker 4: all that kind of stuff.

952
00:52:38,916 --> 00:52:39,196
Speaker 2: Uh.

953
00:52:39,356 --> 00:52:41,316
Speaker 4: He's a good composer. You know. I think we played

954
00:52:41,316 --> 00:52:43,036
Speaker 4: a good sex one at one time, and that was

955
00:52:43,076 --> 00:52:44,036
Speaker 4: on one of this projects.

956
00:52:44,036 --> 00:52:45,036
Speaker 2: I had fun. Yeah.

957
00:52:45,316 --> 00:52:48,756
Speaker 4: Uh seeing how he was the leader for a change

958
00:52:48,916 --> 00:52:50,996
Speaker 4: because he wasn't no leader with milesers Man. He was.

959
00:52:51,036 --> 00:52:53,276
Speaker 4: He was the guy who was part of the process.

960
00:52:53,916 --> 00:52:58,156
Speaker 4: Now he's the guy who's dictating the tatoon, the temple,

961
00:52:58,316 --> 00:53:00,796
Speaker 4: the key, all that stuff. It's interesting to see him

962
00:53:01,196 --> 00:53:05,516
Speaker 4: no longer be the guy hiding behind the curtain of

963
00:53:05,636 --> 00:53:08,956
Speaker 4: the or the glass. Now he's on the other side,

964
00:53:09,316 --> 00:53:11,596
Speaker 4: you know. And he understood a whole another level of

965
00:53:11,596 --> 00:53:13,676
Speaker 4: it that takes something that happened. I appreciated that.

966
00:53:16,116 --> 00:53:20,156
Speaker 3: ESP was produced by Irving Townsend, right what did they did?

967
00:53:20,196 --> 00:53:21,436
Speaker 3: My nmsel a falling out.

968
00:53:21,396 --> 00:53:24,676
Speaker 4: With I have no idea. I never knew little details,

969
00:53:24,876 --> 00:53:29,516
Speaker 4: and I didn't really care to know them, you know,

970
00:53:29,676 --> 00:53:33,996
Speaker 4: and only not that it isn't I didn't care. I

971
00:53:34,036 --> 00:53:38,796
Speaker 4: was more concerned with I think guys, can the man

972
00:53:38,956 --> 00:53:44,196
Speaker 4: hear where I'm going sooner? H And then can I

973
00:53:44,276 --> 00:53:47,916
Speaker 4: remember a nice thing I did on the first set?

974
00:53:48,876 --> 00:53:52,236
Speaker 4: To do it for the third set tomorrow night and

975
00:53:52,276 --> 00:53:55,436
Speaker 4: see how many guys pick up on it? And to

976
00:53:55,556 --> 00:53:57,956
Speaker 4: that end, I have a book come out of the

977
00:53:57,956 --> 00:54:03,556
Speaker 4: public company called uh Tratography, and this book is written

978
00:54:03,596 --> 00:54:07,836
Speaker 4: out scores. What is what we have done is transcribe

979
00:54:08,836 --> 00:54:12,636
Speaker 4: five different performances of the same song, the same band

980
00:54:13,156 --> 00:54:18,076
Speaker 4: perfect laboratory, so cool, and and it transcribes my basic

981
00:54:18,116 --> 00:54:20,836
Speaker 4: line for two and a half courses. How it changes

982
00:54:20,876 --> 00:54:25,036
Speaker 4: for the side performances, but how the band as still

983
00:54:25,076 --> 00:54:28,876
Speaker 4: what I'm playing, and that's what we did live every

984
00:54:28,956 --> 00:54:29,516
Speaker 4: night man.

985
00:54:29,396 --> 00:54:32,236
Speaker 1: Because it's not just a static baseline, No, it's.

986
00:54:32,196 --> 00:54:35,676
Speaker 4: Every night it's something new based on this process, based

987
00:54:35,716 --> 00:54:41,876
Speaker 4: on this germ. Now every night you water it. Yeah,

988
00:54:41,156 --> 00:54:42,316
Speaker 4: how how.

989
00:54:42,196 --> 00:54:45,956
Speaker 3: Do you clear your mind of so that you're not

990
00:54:46,916 --> 00:54:50,356
Speaker 3: repeating what you did the night before, but moving it forward.

991
00:54:52,436 --> 00:54:54,916
Speaker 3: I'll tell you something happened to me recently. I played

992
00:54:54,916 --> 00:54:57,516
Speaker 3: a gig in Detroit a couple of weeks ago, and

993
00:54:57,756 --> 00:54:59,716
Speaker 3: it was good to see all these folks. People I

994
00:54:59,756 --> 00:55:02,076
Speaker 3: went to elementary school came and they were all there

995
00:55:02,116 --> 00:55:04,796
Speaker 3: before the show, and then we went out to play,

996
00:55:04,836 --> 00:55:08,036
Speaker 3: and I realized, I'm completely I'm prepared to play the show.

997
00:55:08,076 --> 00:55:11,716
Speaker 3: And it took me fifteen minutes to get in a

998
00:55:11,796 --> 00:55:17,036
Speaker 3: proper headspace to just be inventive and to let go.

999
00:55:18,196 --> 00:55:22,796
Speaker 3: I'm curious about the balance of again, like following that

1000
00:55:22,916 --> 00:55:26,156
Speaker 3: seed you're talking about planting, but also being spontaneous.

1001
00:55:26,436 --> 00:55:28,396
Speaker 4: One of the things that I try to do down

1002
00:55:29,036 --> 00:55:36,676
Speaker 4: is kind of have a line between them and me

1003
00:55:37,716 --> 00:55:43,156
Speaker 4: and just me. You know. You know we've had times

1004
00:55:43,396 --> 00:55:46,316
Speaker 4: they've been stuff's going on right now it's difficult to

1005
00:55:46,356 --> 00:55:50,276
Speaker 4: turn off the news, yeah and go to work because

1006
00:55:50,316 --> 00:55:55,316
Speaker 4: the news is so so in motion consuming, man, you know.

1007
00:55:55,796 --> 00:55:58,276
Speaker 4: And I say that because I feel like I'm getting

1008
00:55:58,316 --> 00:56:02,276
Speaker 4: like this right now, just thinking about trouble, the trouble,

1009
00:56:02,316 --> 00:56:05,556
Speaker 4: the difficult times we're in, and I know I got

1010
00:56:05,556 --> 00:56:07,996
Speaker 4: to go play a threell next week with a coin

1011
00:56:08,316 --> 00:56:10,116
Speaker 4: I've got to put. This film is a signed long

1012
00:56:10,236 --> 00:56:12,516
Speaker 4: enough to do what immine hopes I can do for

1013
00:56:12,556 --> 00:56:19,036
Speaker 4: the band and my devices. Guys, it changes from how

1014
00:56:19,756 --> 00:56:23,236
Speaker 4: swept up I allow me to get in this over here.

1015
00:56:24,356 --> 00:56:28,196
Speaker 4: You know, there have been times when this part has

1016
00:56:28,236 --> 00:56:31,836
Speaker 4: been so emotional for me that it bleeds over into

1017
00:56:32,236 --> 00:56:35,476
Speaker 4: the first set of who I'm working with. Most of

1018
00:56:35,476 --> 00:56:40,276
Speaker 4: the groups work with can't understand that issue because they

1019
00:56:40,316 --> 00:56:43,916
Speaker 4: have it also, you know, and they would like to

1020
00:56:43,916 --> 00:56:46,916
Speaker 4: think that the band over here, they're strong enough in

1021
00:56:46,996 --> 00:56:50,476
Speaker 4: their personal beliefs or they're saying to kind of let

1022
00:56:50,516 --> 00:56:54,916
Speaker 4: this not be so important to their performance here, but

1023
00:56:55,316 --> 00:56:58,036
Speaker 4: still color it because it's part of the emotional life

1024
00:56:58,036 --> 00:57:01,396
Speaker 4: they're living. You know, I did a record call when

1025
00:57:01,436 --> 00:57:05,036
Speaker 4: skys are Gray come my first blat and jazz record

1026
00:57:05,076 --> 00:57:09,036
Speaker 4: that that really is nice record. Harvey and Mason, Steve Crouhan,

1027
00:57:09,436 --> 00:57:14,836
Speaker 4: Steven Scott on a Monday, the Sunday before I had

1028
00:57:14,876 --> 00:57:18,476
Speaker 4: done a memorial for my late wife, and these guys

1029
00:57:18,556 --> 00:57:22,516
Speaker 4: understood what I was literally I was coming from. And

1030
00:57:25,356 --> 00:57:28,476
Speaker 4: to say they had my back is kind of crude, crude,

1031
00:57:29,396 --> 00:57:32,276
Speaker 4: And it wasn't that they had not back. They just

1032
00:57:32,316 --> 00:57:36,476
Speaker 4: had my sensitivitiy or tuned up so high that you

1033
00:57:36,516 --> 00:57:39,996
Speaker 4: know that they trusted my choice. If they would want

1034
00:57:39,996 --> 00:57:43,756
Speaker 4: to argue, they had said, no, it's not the right time. Yeah, God,

1035
00:57:43,796 --> 00:57:46,156
Speaker 4: trust this guy because he's hearing some stuff over here.

1036
00:57:48,356 --> 00:57:54,636
Speaker 4: They help me maintain a separation of this event and

1037
00:57:54,716 --> 00:58:01,356
Speaker 4: this performance. Your friends out there, they don't understand how

1038
00:58:01,596 --> 00:58:05,996
Speaker 4: they have impacted. Your choice is over here. Only you

1039
00:58:06,076 --> 00:58:12,076
Speaker 4: understand that you plural have to understand that they don't

1040
00:58:12,156 --> 00:58:15,276
Speaker 4: know the difference. They don't know you have choices they

1041
00:58:15,356 --> 00:58:18,156
Speaker 4: and there's no year there m They will accept by

1042
00:58:18,196 --> 00:58:21,956
Speaker 4: and large what you give them because they expect you

1043
00:58:22,036 --> 00:58:25,796
Speaker 4: to give them a good menu. Your job is to

1044
00:58:25,796 --> 00:58:29,236
Speaker 4: pick the menu and what things you wanna really serve

1045
00:58:29,316 --> 00:58:32,116
Speaker 4: them that you're really comfortable with, given their tastes are

1046
00:58:32,156 --> 00:58:37,396
Speaker 4: not sophisticated. I mean that can give you y. You

1047
00:58:37,396 --> 00:58:39,076
Speaker 4: don't get them a test that's over there that you

1048
00:58:39,156 --> 00:58:42,676
Speaker 4: me do this. I that's no. You wanna have them

1049
00:58:42,796 --> 00:58:45,876
Speaker 4: lead this gig to me to hurt our friend Don

1050
00:58:46,196 --> 00:58:48,276
Speaker 4: that hadn't hurt in a very long time. He sounded wonderful.

1051
00:58:49,236 --> 00:58:51,276
Speaker 4: Your job is given them right things from this menu.

1052
00:58:52,196 --> 00:58:55,396
Speaker 4: So you gotta turn this off, turn this down h

1053
00:58:55,476 --> 00:58:59,476
Speaker 4: long enough to be able to fulfill your responsibility to them. Also,

1054
00:58:59,636 --> 00:59:05,836
Speaker 4: these guys, M it is not that it is not

1055
00:59:05,876 --> 00:59:09,276
Speaker 4: an easy thing to do, you know, and and know

1056
00:59:09,396 --> 00:59:14,916
Speaker 4: that we're confronted with these two emotions daily. M. It's

1057
00:59:14,916 --> 00:59:20,116
Speaker 4: something that we all quietly fight. We all quietly, uh

1058
00:59:21,916 --> 00:59:24,356
Speaker 4: try to find a balance. Now somehow we don't. We

1059
00:59:24,876 --> 00:59:30,276
Speaker 4: musicians don't really discuss this kind of process that we

1060
00:59:30,476 --> 00:59:33,156
Speaker 4: use because we have an image of ourselves being kind

1061
00:59:33,156 --> 00:59:36,076
Speaker 4: of above the fray. You know, you feel that you

1062
00:59:36,156 --> 00:59:39,556
Speaker 4: feel down, Let's play the blues whatever things. We're kind

1063
00:59:39,556 --> 00:59:43,676
Speaker 4: of kind of given, uh more credit than is due

1064
00:59:44,156 --> 00:59:46,316
Speaker 4: of maybe a pull over inst about these doul drums,

1065
00:59:46,356 --> 00:59:49,876
Speaker 4: you know, I mean we love the imagery of being

1066
00:59:49,876 --> 00:59:54,276
Speaker 4: a guy who does this, you know, and the fact

1067
00:59:54,276 --> 00:59:56,756
Speaker 4: that the band is doing this because they're following your lead.

1068
00:59:57,116 --> 00:59:59,716
Speaker 4: You've got to accept that responsibility and take care of it.

1069
00:59:59,756 --> 01:00:01,796
Speaker 3: Man, do give rituals.

1070
01:00:03,476 --> 01:00:05,236
Speaker 4: I try to have quiet before I go to work.

1071
01:00:06,756 --> 01:00:08,556
Speaker 4: My tech guy didn't understand that.

1072
01:00:08,596 --> 01:00:08,956
Speaker 3: At first.

1073
01:00:09,196 --> 01:00:10,916
Speaker 4: We were driving. He picks me up, you know, drive

1074
01:00:11,396 --> 01:00:14,796
Speaker 4: turn the music. I'm not turning music off, No, no, no,

1075
01:00:15,356 --> 01:00:17,516
Speaker 4: I just need to clear my head from these things

1076
01:00:17,556 --> 01:00:18,516
Speaker 4: that are in a way.

1077
01:00:19,316 --> 01:00:19,436
Speaker 2: You know.

1078
01:00:19,436 --> 01:00:21,516
Speaker 4: I don't listen to music from come nowhere. I drive

1079
01:00:21,556 --> 01:00:25,076
Speaker 4: to my car, turn the music off like a sponge man.

1080
01:00:25,196 --> 01:00:25,756
Speaker 2: We all are.

1081
01:00:27,116 --> 01:00:32,036
Speaker 4: Everything affects us. I try to limit those affecting events

1082
01:00:32,156 --> 01:00:35,876
Speaker 4: as much as I can to to it. No music

1083
01:00:35,916 --> 01:00:38,156
Speaker 4: in the car, don't talk to me. Talk to me

1084
01:00:38,196 --> 01:00:41,156
Speaker 4: after the set because I'm still here and what I'm

1085
01:00:41,156 --> 01:00:43,316
Speaker 4: trying to do for this next hour and a half.

1086
01:00:44,156 --> 01:00:47,316
Speaker 4: And then make some strange looks occasionally, and then some

1087
01:00:47,316 --> 01:00:51,436
Speaker 4: people get offended, and I'm sorry that they feel that way,

1088
01:00:52,676 --> 01:00:54,516
Speaker 4: but as much better to feel that way. And now

1089
01:00:55,156 --> 01:00:57,076
Speaker 4: didn't feel that way this way because I didn't do

1090
01:00:57,116 --> 01:00:57,476
Speaker 4: my job.

1091
01:00:59,516 --> 01:01:01,436
Speaker 1: You do you find by taking that much time to

1092
01:01:01,476 --> 01:01:04,956
Speaker 1: sort of before before you go to work, to clear

1093
01:01:04,996 --> 01:01:07,956
Speaker 1: your head and kind of adjust your intent, so to speak.

1094
01:01:08,676 --> 01:01:11,196
Speaker 1: But does that create any anxiety as well?

1095
01:01:11,276 --> 01:01:15,796
Speaker 4: Like is it I'm there because I belong there? Anything

1096
01:01:15,836 --> 01:01:19,796
Speaker 4: in any anxiety may have maybe that someone touched the

1097
01:01:19,836 --> 01:01:23,876
Speaker 4: baseball office out there, someone food with the knobs, you know,

1098
01:01:24,476 --> 01:01:30,476
Speaker 4: physical things that I can't control and I accept, you know, Uh,

1099
01:01:30,756 --> 01:01:32,956
Speaker 4: well it cracks me up. Man. When we were at

1100
01:01:32,956 --> 01:01:37,516
Speaker 4: the club called Sweet Basil, uh seventh Avenues down and downtown,

1101
01:01:38,276 --> 01:01:40,556
Speaker 4: the way we were set up, the audience had to

1102
01:01:40,636 --> 01:01:45,796
Speaker 4: walk by the bandstand to get to the restroom, and

1103
01:01:45,956 --> 01:01:48,556
Speaker 4: invariably on the animation someone wo walked by going to

1104
01:01:48,596 --> 01:01:53,276
Speaker 4: the bathroom and hit the cymbals or do you like

1105
01:01:53,276 --> 01:01:56,036
Speaker 4: to hold the piano? They had to see what they

1106
01:01:56,036 --> 01:01:57,996
Speaker 4: had to They had to had to be a part

1107
01:01:58,036 --> 01:02:04,476
Speaker 4: of the thing, man, you know, and uh yeah, you're

1108
01:02:04,476 --> 01:02:06,996
Speaker 4: not a part of this. You're a part of this

1109
01:02:08,396 --> 01:02:11,076
Speaker 4: part of the equation. Yeah, yeah, you get the guy

1110
01:02:11,196 --> 01:02:12,356
Speaker 4: draws the line, you know.

1111
01:02:15,716 --> 01:02:19,556
Speaker 3: When you you mentioned like physical distractions, do you ever

1112
01:02:19,596 --> 01:02:22,316
Speaker 3: find you you've been playing the same base for decades, right,

1113
01:02:22,396 --> 01:02:27,036
Speaker 3: sixty years? Does it feel different like another instrument some nights? Yes,

1114
01:02:27,516 --> 01:02:30,956
Speaker 3: what is that? Well, you know, the base is a box.

1115
01:02:31,076 --> 01:02:34,636
Speaker 4: It's a box, a wooden box that's held together, that's

1116
01:02:34,636 --> 01:02:38,556
Speaker 4: separated by a stick. It's called sound most about that

1117
01:02:38,636 --> 01:02:40,756
Speaker 4: sound post. It would do like this just because the

1118
01:02:40,756 --> 01:02:43,876
Speaker 4: pressure of the strings. It's also the fact that the

1119
01:02:43,956 --> 01:02:51,876
Speaker 4: weather it affects the basis expanding contraction a small, small degree.

1120
01:02:51,996 --> 01:02:53,716
Speaker 4: But you feel in the strains got off someome. You

1121
01:02:53,756 --> 01:02:57,716
Speaker 4: get tighter, you know, the certain gigs that I don't do.

1122
01:02:58,876 --> 01:03:04,596
Speaker 4: Because the bases land for an hour between sets and

1123
01:03:04,676 --> 01:03:08,636
Speaker 4: a window and the windows kind of cold air, it's

1124
01:03:08,636 --> 01:03:11,436
Speaker 4: gonna pick up the base. The base is literally freezing.

1125
01:03:12,996 --> 01:03:16,076
Speaker 4: And now that turn the heat on. Now the base

1126
01:03:16,116 --> 01:03:18,636
Speaker 4: which whitch got which got this way because there's been

1127
01:03:18,636 --> 01:03:23,396
Speaker 4: cold there? And that goes like this and my hands,

1128
01:03:23,556 --> 01:03:25,956
Speaker 4: my hands no difference right away, said oh man, I

1129
01:03:26,036 --> 01:03:28,236
Speaker 4: got to play harder because the strings are so tight.

1130
01:03:28,316 --> 01:03:31,876
Speaker 4: Now because of this, you know, my body's warm. The

1131
01:03:31,996 --> 01:03:35,996
Speaker 4: lights are on. All these factors change the instruments physical

1132
01:03:36,036 --> 01:03:41,436
Speaker 4: response because it's going like this ever so slightly. And

1133
01:03:41,516 --> 01:03:43,756
Speaker 4: as they do this, the strings go higher as well.

1134
01:03:43,916 --> 01:03:45,876
Speaker 4: You know they they stand there, but the strings are

1135
01:03:45,916 --> 01:03:48,476
Speaker 4: moving just because this activity is going on. You know,

1136
01:03:49,836 --> 01:03:52,236
Speaker 4: and it's always you know all it's just cracked me up, man,

1137
01:03:52,276 --> 01:03:54,276
Speaker 4: and said, we go offrom the parking lot to the bandstand,

1138
01:03:55,236 --> 01:03:57,556
Speaker 4: there have no chance to get warmed up, so to speak.

1139
01:03:57,876 --> 01:04:00,796
Speaker 4: The bass didn't been walked into four blocks and in

1140
01:04:00,836 --> 01:04:03,316
Speaker 4: the rain going to the gig, you know, going to

1141
01:04:03,596 --> 01:04:07,156
Speaker 4: literally to the bandstand, you know, and uh, but that's

1142
01:04:07,236 --> 01:04:10,236
Speaker 4: kind of the physical thing real we're we were looking

1143
01:04:10,796 --> 01:04:13,516
Speaker 4: in every night, and I think the most we can

1144
01:04:13,596 --> 01:04:16,716
Speaker 4: do is to be aware of there certain things we

1145
01:04:16,756 --> 01:04:20,036
Speaker 4: can't control. We've got to be aware of that it's happening.

1146
01:04:20,076 --> 01:04:22,796
Speaker 4: Though we can't say I didn't know what that. I

1147
01:04:23,156 --> 01:04:25,236
Speaker 4: don't know what happened. How can you not know? Man?

1148
01:04:25,316 --> 01:04:27,356
Speaker 4: You just walk four blocks in the rain, there was snow,

1149
01:04:28,116 --> 01:04:30,836
Speaker 4: the basis cold, the heat's on on the badstand. How

1150
01:04:30,836 --> 01:04:34,036
Speaker 4: could you not know that's going to affect this box

1151
01:04:34,596 --> 01:04:37,196
Speaker 4: some kind of way. I think if they understood that,

1152
01:04:37,236 --> 01:04:41,076
Speaker 4: they will have a less a little lower level of frustration,

1153
01:04:42,156 --> 01:04:43,956
Speaker 4: and they would play it different because they understand they

1154
01:04:44,036 --> 01:04:46,156
Speaker 4: got it. They warmed up, as the bass does physically

1155
01:04:46,196 --> 01:04:46,916
Speaker 4: as well.

1156
01:04:49,316 --> 01:04:53,596
Speaker 3: When you play in a theater, and especially with modern

1157
01:04:53,876 --> 01:04:58,076
Speaker 3: sound systems, where they got the subwolfers projecting out the

1158
01:04:58,076 --> 01:05:00,596
Speaker 3: thing and it comes bouncing back at you, and the

1159
01:05:00,676 --> 01:05:05,316
Speaker 3: drums come bouncing back at your thirty milliseconds later. How

1160
01:05:05,316 --> 01:05:06,116
Speaker 3: do you deal with that?

1161
01:05:06,876 --> 01:05:08,636
Speaker 4: Well, I try to have the band not rely on

1162
01:05:08,676 --> 01:05:13,556
Speaker 4: that relies so singly on the they all those things,

1163
01:05:13,996 --> 01:05:16,956
Speaker 4: the monitors. Yeah, yeah, I want them to guy and

1164
01:05:17,036 --> 01:05:19,356
Speaker 4: rely us. Must they can on what they hear immediately.

1165
01:05:20,396 --> 01:05:24,676
Speaker 4: If I can get them to trust the band's sound

1166
01:05:25,516 --> 01:05:29,676
Speaker 4: without this other stuff, this delay of the beat doesn't

1167
01:05:30,316 --> 01:05:32,916
Speaker 4: take them so far out, so to speak. You know,

1168
01:05:33,356 --> 01:05:36,276
Speaker 4: when you have your own monitors, guys, I think each

1169
01:05:36,356 --> 01:05:46,996
Speaker 4: guy once says loud like it's just them more hard practice, piano,

1170
01:05:47,076 --> 01:05:50,716
Speaker 4: soft pedal that you know.

1171
01:05:50,956 --> 01:05:55,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's shift up from one said. You mentioned Tayo Macero.

1172
01:05:55,836 --> 01:05:59,996
Speaker 3: You've worked with all the great producers, the legendary producers.

1173
01:06:00,036 --> 01:06:04,596
Speaker 3: You Creed Taylor, you worked with Bob Field, Alfred Lyon.

1174
01:06:05,516 --> 01:06:09,316
Speaker 3: I'm wondering, you know, from a Blue Note perspect to

1175
01:06:09,356 --> 01:06:13,316
Speaker 3: certainly what made Alfred's records different. You happen to be

1176
01:06:13,636 --> 01:06:17,876
Speaker 3: on the best records that I think are in our catalog,

1177
01:06:17,996 --> 01:06:21,236
Speaker 3: from Speaking No Evil and Maiden Voyage and stuff with

1178
01:06:21,396 --> 01:06:24,516
Speaker 3: Bobby Hutcherson, Real McCoy, all all the things she did

1179
01:06:24,596 --> 01:06:29,356
Speaker 3: with McCoy. The players changed, but you're on all of

1180
01:06:29,396 --> 01:06:34,716
Speaker 3: the best records. I think that's a strong testimony as

1181
01:06:34,756 --> 01:06:38,036
Speaker 3: a like working with Alfred as opposed to other producers.

1182
01:06:38,356 --> 01:06:46,156
Speaker 4: Alfred understood just a feeling, he would say, it's got

1183
01:06:46,156 --> 01:06:49,716
Speaker 4: to say, it's got to say. He understood that emotion.

1184
01:06:50,356 --> 01:06:52,316
Speaker 4: He didn't know anything else, by anything else. He didn't

1185
01:06:52,356 --> 01:06:54,836
Speaker 4: know notes. He couldn't really know that he hit him

1186
01:06:54,836 --> 01:06:58,996
Speaker 4: in the head on the subway, but he knew that

1187
01:06:59,276 --> 01:07:03,676
Speaker 4: this thing didn't have the element he recognized. And the

1188
01:07:03,796 --> 01:07:10,396
Speaker 4: band who understood how little Alfred knew about music. He

1189
01:07:10,516 --> 01:07:15,396
Speaker 4: understood this primals, that God work, this this primal instinct

1190
01:07:15,436 --> 01:07:19,596
Speaker 4: of swing. And when he said that, the band just

1191
01:07:19,596 --> 01:07:23,076
Speaker 4: stopped in their heads, detegrating this guy and understood that

1192
01:07:23,156 --> 01:07:25,996
Speaker 4: he was telling them that this stuff is not happening

1193
01:07:26,036 --> 01:07:28,556
Speaker 4: because he can't feel it, and that's all he has

1194
01:07:28,636 --> 01:07:31,356
Speaker 4: to tell him. And that was important to the bands.

1195
01:07:31,956 --> 01:07:34,756
Speaker 4: All of those guys, man, all of them will say,

1196
01:07:34,756 --> 01:07:38,756
Speaker 4: oh yeah, okay. The fact that he said that he

1197
01:07:38,916 --> 01:07:43,876
Speaker 4: understood his limitations were telling them that wherever they were

1198
01:07:44,716 --> 01:07:45,956
Speaker 4: it was the wrong place for this.

1199
01:07:48,356 --> 01:07:50,396
Speaker 3: Because he he wasn't intrusive, then.

1200
01:07:51,836 --> 01:07:53,636
Speaker 4: Helps him. He made sure we had lunch before, He

1201
01:07:53,676 --> 01:07:57,396
Speaker 4: made sure that that's what the physical details and maybe

1202
01:07:57,516 --> 01:08:00,676
Speaker 4: maybe maybe rehearsal sometimes there was none, you know.

1203
01:08:01,396 --> 01:08:01,756
Speaker 2: Uh.

1204
01:08:01,836 --> 01:08:05,276
Speaker 4: His his his ability to put together the best set

1205
01:08:05,316 --> 01:08:08,076
Speaker 4: of guys was another. It was a whole different kind

1206
01:08:08,116 --> 01:08:12,796
Speaker 4: of skill that most producers don't have. Forever reason, you know,

1207
01:08:13,156 --> 01:08:15,516
Speaker 4: my favorite player, but does he sound good with this guy?

1208
01:08:15,676 --> 01:08:18,516
Speaker 4: Or who's gonna pull this state together? Who can we

1209
01:08:18,596 --> 01:08:21,556
Speaker 4: trust to be the lynch pin? You know, who's gonna

1210
01:08:22,196 --> 01:08:27,436
Speaker 4: those He had that sense of combinations that a lot

1211
01:08:27,476 --> 01:08:30,636
Speaker 4: of producers don't happen to have. For another set of reasons.

1212
01:08:30,396 --> 01:08:33,676
Speaker 3: M you know it's a casting director. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,

1213
01:08:33,716 --> 01:08:38,076
Speaker 3: that's a big skill. Yeah who w wh Which producers

1214
01:08:38,396 --> 01:08:40,356
Speaker 3: do you think? What with the the best th th

1215
01:08:40,516 --> 01:08:41,316
Speaker 3: that she worked.

1216
01:08:41,116 --> 01:08:43,956
Speaker 4: Was fit almost too many of the name cause y

1217
01:08:44,036 --> 01:08:46,076
Speaker 4: you never know who they are until it's all over.

1218
01:08:46,356 --> 01:08:46,596
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1219
01:08:47,116 --> 01:08:49,636
Speaker 4: And and unless I hear the the to foind a product,

1220
01:08:50,396 --> 01:08:52,836
Speaker 4: I I don't have that chance to track down most

1221
01:08:52,836 --> 01:08:53,436
Speaker 4: of those sayings.

1222
01:08:53,476 --> 01:08:53,636
Speaker 3: So I do.

1223
01:08:53,756 --> 01:08:56,156
Speaker 4: I don't know who did their job better than somebody

1224
01:08:56,156 --> 01:08:59,356
Speaker 4: else did. That's the other that's the courtion right now. Yeah, yeah, uh,

1225
01:08:59,396 --> 01:09:01,276
Speaker 4: I just think that that they would call me for

1226
01:09:01,316 --> 01:09:03,196
Speaker 4: their projects. They thought I could be a guy who

1227
01:09:03,196 --> 01:09:06,236
Speaker 4: could help them do something that they thought they wanted. Yeah,

1228
01:09:06,396 --> 01:09:10,156
Speaker 4: and I admire that skill. I admire them. Haven't heard

1229
01:09:10,236 --> 01:09:11,716
Speaker 4: enough music during that kind of choice.

1230
01:09:12,916 --> 01:09:15,636
Speaker 1: Duke Pearson was another person who was important at Blue

1231
01:09:15,716 --> 01:09:17,996
Speaker 1: Note and was a player, but also.

1232
01:09:18,476 --> 01:09:19,396
Speaker 4: He also play trumpet.

1233
01:09:19,476 --> 01:09:22,596
Speaker 2: Man played, Yeah, great player, but also produced records. Yea,

1234
01:09:23,876 --> 01:09:24,636
Speaker 2: how was he as a.

1235
01:09:25,516 --> 01:09:29,396
Speaker 4: He he's a player who knew how to produce, not

1236
01:09:29,516 --> 01:09:31,476
Speaker 4: the producer who played a little bit. That's not a

1237
01:09:31,556 --> 01:09:36,356
Speaker 4: bit different. Yeah, and he played good too. By the way,

1238
01:09:36,876 --> 01:09:39,436
Speaker 4: my footnote of that story is that Oran was trying

1239
01:09:39,436 --> 01:09:41,236
Speaker 4: to get him to make he wanted to make one

1240
01:09:41,316 --> 01:09:43,636
Speaker 4: more record. He moved on to Atlanta and all that

1241
01:09:43,716 --> 01:09:49,676
Speaker 4: kind of stuff, and I was working in California, and

1242
01:09:49,756 --> 01:09:51,876
Speaker 4: I ended up in Berkeley, which is where the Fantasy

1243
01:09:51,916 --> 01:09:55,436
Speaker 4: Studio was a nice studio man and the good engineered

1244
01:09:55,476 --> 01:09:59,596
Speaker 4: Jim Starn And and somehow Duke was ailing. But I

1245
01:09:59,636 --> 01:10:02,556
Speaker 4: didn't understand that, and I think Orn didn't understand that either,

1246
01:10:03,436 --> 01:10:05,876
Speaker 4: because no one really said why he was ailing, but

1247
01:10:06,036 --> 01:10:08,716
Speaker 4: what it was. And then they come up to much later.

1248
01:10:09,276 --> 01:10:11,636
Speaker 4: And anyway, Duke finally got got some kind we got

1249
01:10:11,676 --> 01:10:14,316
Speaker 4: to California for this recording session with me and him.

1250
01:10:14,396 --> 01:10:17,076
Speaker 4: You know, cause Duke has did a lot of duels

1251
01:10:17,116 --> 01:10:18,876
Speaker 4: in New York when he was in New York and

1252
01:10:19,076 --> 01:10:22,796
Speaker 4: Bradley's the the Lions here whatever they were, he kind

1253
01:10:22,836 --> 01:10:25,156
Speaker 4: of had them hire me and him to do a

1254
01:10:25,236 --> 01:10:31,516
Speaker 4: duel thing. Bradley's uh nick a blocker. I Anyway, when

1255
01:10:31,596 --> 01:10:34,036
Speaker 4: Duke finally got out to the to California to make

1256
01:10:34,116 --> 01:10:36,476
Speaker 4: this record, we were I was working at night with

1257
01:10:36,516 --> 01:10:39,036
Speaker 4: who maybe my band, but I was at free during

1258
01:10:39,036 --> 01:10:41,436
Speaker 4: the day. So we spent two or three days all

1259
01:10:41,556 --> 01:10:45,556
Speaker 4: day hoping Duke would feel better enough to complete the

1260
01:10:45,716 --> 01:10:49,236
Speaker 4: tune or something. You know. Uh, I'm not sure it

1261
01:10:49,356 --> 01:10:52,356
Speaker 4: had on our efforts. You know, ultimately he passed away

1262
01:10:52,356 --> 01:10:56,916
Speaker 4: from multiple scrosses who understood, but no one nailed that

1263
01:10:57,116 --> 01:11:00,436
Speaker 4: as the cause of him having the physical dift of

1264
01:11:00,516 --> 01:11:03,636
Speaker 4: the physical difficulties he was experiencing. And maybe I'm just

1265
01:11:03,676 --> 01:11:06,436
Speaker 4: repeating the room I heard. I'm not sure, but ultimately

1266
01:11:06,516 --> 01:11:09,076
Speaker 4: he couldn't finish cause he was in so much discomfort.

1267
01:11:09,196 --> 01:11:09,276
Speaker 1: It.

1268
01:11:09,956 --> 01:11:14,116
Speaker 4: Uh, but what what a you know, even the names

1269
01:11:14,116 --> 01:11:16,516
Speaker 4: of the people who I knew who are who are

1270
01:11:16,556 --> 01:11:18,996
Speaker 4: no longer. I call him left the concert and I

1271
01:11:19,036 --> 01:11:21,996
Speaker 4: look around, man, and and I'm the when the last

1272
01:11:21,996 --> 01:11:25,316
Speaker 4: guy's standing, and it's just I just get chills thinking

1273
01:11:25,356 --> 01:11:29,676
Speaker 4: that I can't count on those guys to be there

1274
01:11:29,956 --> 01:11:32,436
Speaker 4: wherever there is, you know, I can't count on those

1275
01:11:32,436 --> 01:11:35,116
Speaker 4: guys to call him up and say every birthday, you know,

1276
01:11:35,916 --> 01:11:38,076
Speaker 4: or I can't count those guys say now you stop that,

1277
01:11:38,316 --> 01:11:40,836
Speaker 4: get out of here. Come on, as I've been known

1278
01:11:40,876 --> 01:11:42,956
Speaker 4: to say, the guys who are getting in my nerve,

1279
01:11:43,156 --> 01:11:45,556
Speaker 4: you know, my last nerve. As a matter of fact,

1280
01:11:46,436 --> 01:11:47,276
Speaker 4: I miss those guys.

1281
01:11:47,316 --> 01:11:47,476
Speaker 2: Man.

1282
01:11:48,356 --> 01:11:50,436
Speaker 4: I'm some guys saying, man, how did you do that?

1283
01:11:52,316 --> 01:11:55,156
Speaker 4: And I can't hear that from those guys, a lot

1284
01:11:55,196 --> 01:11:59,156
Speaker 4: of them, so subject it calls me to sit back

1285
01:11:59,196 --> 01:12:04,356
Speaker 4: and reflect on uh lonjevity.

1286
01:12:04,796 --> 01:12:06,236
Speaker 1: Do you do you do you call a lot of

1287
01:12:06,236 --> 01:12:08,436
Speaker 1: your old friends that are still around Sonny Rollins or

1288
01:12:08,476 --> 01:12:09,076
Speaker 1: Herbie Hancock.

1289
01:12:09,356 --> 01:12:12,436
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I just feel the spirits. Okay, I call

1290
01:12:12,516 --> 01:12:15,716
Speaker 4: those guys, you know, I talk. I call that called

1291
01:12:15,876 --> 01:12:18,876
Speaker 4: h A couple of guys doing their birthday and I

1292
01:12:18,956 --> 01:12:21,076
Speaker 4: just have your birthday for him, you know, And it

1293
01:12:21,636 --> 01:12:23,516
Speaker 4: tracks him up that I was stopped. Of course I

1294
01:12:23,596 --> 01:12:24,276
Speaker 4: was stopping my day.

1295
01:12:24,356 --> 01:12:24,516
Speaker 2: Man.

1296
01:12:24,556 --> 01:12:28,596
Speaker 4: He's not that important in my life. Come on, it is,

1297
01:12:29,516 --> 01:12:30,636
Speaker 4: that'stuff whatever it is, you know.

1298
01:12:31,516 --> 01:12:38,956
Speaker 3: G let's talk about Wayne for a second. Yeah, one

1299
01:12:38,956 --> 01:12:41,116
Speaker 3: of the kind. Yeah, how do you think about him?

1300
01:12:41,356 --> 01:12:42,876
Speaker 3: How do you think about playing with him?

1301
01:12:42,956 --> 01:12:46,276
Speaker 4: And when I first met Wayne, he was playing with

1302
01:12:46,276 --> 01:12:51,756
Speaker 4: manon Fergus's band and uh his friends second tend I guess,

1303
01:12:51,796 --> 01:12:55,916
Speaker 4: I don't know, doing them doing occasional arrangements, you know. Uh,

1304
01:12:55,996 --> 01:12:58,116
Speaker 4: that's my first meeting with him. And also later I

1305
01:12:58,196 --> 01:13:01,036
Speaker 4: met his brother Alan, who played a little bit trumpet,

1306
01:13:01,076 --> 01:13:02,836
Speaker 4: you know, when they won the Avant guarde guys at

1307
01:13:02,876 --> 01:13:08,676
Speaker 4: the time when not travel with the psop or Miles

1308
01:13:08,756 --> 01:13:11,636
Speaker 4: is bad. My My my job was to do two things.

1309
01:13:12,636 --> 01:13:18,076
Speaker 4: Not let Wayne buy too many books and uh kind

1310
01:13:18,076 --> 01:13:20,956
Speaker 4: of translated what he said to the interviewer, you know

1311
01:13:21,916 --> 01:13:25,556
Speaker 4: an and uh Wayne left at both of those jobs.

1312
01:13:25,756 --> 01:13:29,316
Speaker 4: You know, He's gonna buy his books and he's gonna

1313
01:13:29,316 --> 01:13:32,676
Speaker 4: say what he's gonna say, you know, and he's gonna

1314
01:13:32,716 --> 01:13:34,636
Speaker 4: also write what he could write. And it's just a

1315
01:13:34,676 --> 01:13:38,876
Speaker 4: g a great writer man. Yeah, he he I think

1316
01:13:38,916 --> 01:13:45,236
Speaker 4: he understood, n not that the guys didn't. He understood

1317
01:13:46,556 --> 01:13:53,476
Speaker 4: that the base sound was important, not specifically the note choice,

1318
01:13:54,356 --> 01:13:57,036
Speaker 4: but of course that's part of it. M that's a B,

1319
01:13:57,276 --> 01:14:03,716
Speaker 4: that's a not specifically to rhythm or not specifically maintain

1320
01:14:03,836 --> 01:14:07,156
Speaker 4: the forum. He thought for him, the sound of the

1321
01:14:07,156 --> 01:14:11,036
Speaker 4: base was so important that they made the band work

1322
01:14:11,076 --> 01:14:15,356
Speaker 4: for him, if for another reason because of that, the

1323
01:14:15,396 --> 01:14:18,036
Speaker 4: others were important to him. He wrote, stuffs off them.

1324
01:14:18,196 --> 01:14:21,716
Speaker 4: They're kind of changes, different kind of form, different temple.

1325
01:14:22,276 --> 01:14:24,756
Speaker 4: Of course they were important to him, but for him

1326
01:14:25,196 --> 01:14:28,236
Speaker 4: that song was critical to his being in the band.

1327
01:14:28,636 --> 01:14:30,036
Speaker 2: And critical to his compositions.

1328
01:14:30,116 --> 01:14:34,476
Speaker 4: And t Wayne to Wayne, two more questions and I'm

1329
01:14:34,516 --> 01:14:36,356
Speaker 4: getting emotional hairs and that's kind.

1330
01:14:36,196 --> 01:14:44,076
Speaker 3: Of okay, let's talk Let's talk about let's talk about

1331
01:14:44,916 --> 01:14:49,116
Speaker 3: Ron Curter. Universe is one of the most remarkable things.

1332
01:14:49,676 --> 01:14:55,076
Speaker 4: Amazing. Yeah you said that too, Yeah, ask me how

1333
01:14:55,116 --> 01:14:58,196
Speaker 4: they did it all. I can tell you, man that

1334
01:14:58,276 --> 01:15:02,556
Speaker 4: people came by two nights ago with found at seventy

1335
01:15:02,596 --> 01:15:08,836
Speaker 4: five more records to the universe. Yeah, I'm just stunned.

1336
01:15:08,916 --> 01:15:10,676
Speaker 4: And this guy that's got that kind of like, guys,

1337
01:15:10,716 --> 01:15:14,676
Speaker 4: who's you see them? The pizza shop just being guys.

1338
01:15:15,396 --> 01:15:19,436
Speaker 4: But to be able to conceive of that and and

1339
01:15:19,436 --> 01:15:22,476
Speaker 4: and put that in the form that it can be

1340
01:15:22,996 --> 01:15:26,916
Speaker 4: added to as you discover them just mind boggling.

1341
01:15:26,996 --> 01:15:27,196
Speaker 2: Man.

1342
01:15:27,596 --> 01:15:30,436
Speaker 3: People should check it out. It's it's a Ron Carter

1343
01:15:30,596 --> 01:15:34,156
Speaker 3: universe if you if you search Ron Carter Universe dot com. Yeah,

1344
01:15:35,076 --> 01:15:38,236
Speaker 3: and then the club I spelled the form are in

1345
01:15:39,116 --> 01:15:40,716
Speaker 3: dot com.

1346
01:15:40,756 --> 01:15:40,996
Speaker 4: You know.

1347
01:15:42,316 --> 01:15:42,476
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1348
01:15:42,476 --> 01:15:43,796
Speaker 4: It's just stunning, man.

1349
01:15:44,156 --> 01:15:46,476
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean every I was going to say

1350
01:15:46,476 --> 01:15:47,996
Speaker 3: it would be great if everybody could do it, but

1351
01:15:48,036 --> 01:15:51,436
Speaker 3: everybody can't do it because you've played on so many records.

1352
01:15:50,876 --> 01:15:55,516
Speaker 3: No one's got that kind of repertoire or the discography

1353
01:15:55,676 --> 01:16:00,476
Speaker 3: where but I could spend hours on it.

1354
01:16:00,516 --> 01:16:03,996
Speaker 4: And the more you find, the more other combinations you find,

1355
01:16:04,076 --> 01:16:07,396
Speaker 4: the personalities and what record this is on the dates

1356
01:16:07,396 --> 01:16:10,036
Speaker 4: and you get to a ten second on YouTube. But

1357
01:16:10,076 --> 01:16:14,516
Speaker 4: it it just Yeah. Fortunately, you know, when I talk

1358
01:16:14,596 --> 01:16:16,716
Speaker 4: to guys, I'm standing up otherwise so far off my

1359
01:16:16,716 --> 01:16:19,316
Speaker 4: head sitting down. Let's say you guys be quiet.

1360
01:16:22,396 --> 01:16:24,356
Speaker 3: And l le let's also talk about all the all

1361
01:16:24,356 --> 01:16:28,476
Speaker 3: the books you write. Y, you're a great educator, mentor figure.

1362
01:16:29,076 --> 01:16:32,036
Speaker 4: Well, Y, you know, I I think my age group

1363
01:16:32,076 --> 01:16:37,036
Speaker 4: has responsibility, so that the next generation doesn't realize that

1364
01:16:37,956 --> 01:16:41,796
Speaker 4: these people before them really impacted what they're trying to

1365
01:16:41,836 --> 01:16:45,316
Speaker 4: do now, you know, And and I think, what what

1366
01:16:45,436 --> 01:16:48,596
Speaker 4: what I've tried to do with my books, especially to

1367
01:16:48,636 --> 01:16:51,436
Speaker 4: the bass players, gave them my head start on what

1368
01:16:51,516 --> 01:16:55,916
Speaker 4: it takes, what tools it takes to do what they

1369
01:16:55,996 --> 01:17:04,916
Speaker 4: think they hear with help from my processes and my books. Uh,

1370
01:17:04,956 --> 01:17:07,956
Speaker 4: you know, don I I've always felt that unless the

1371
01:17:07,996 --> 01:17:11,716
Speaker 4: bass player gets in the bands, the band really can't

1372
01:17:11,756 --> 01:17:13,876
Speaker 4: cover a lot of different territory, because this is the

1373
01:17:13,916 --> 01:17:17,436
Speaker 4: guy who does everything, you know. And I explain to

1374
01:17:17,476 --> 01:17:19,596
Speaker 4: them my name's gets stunned, you know, I say, this

1375
01:17:19,716 --> 01:17:23,036
Speaker 4: is the only guy in the band who plays every note.

1376
01:17:23,476 --> 01:17:27,756
Speaker 4: He plays every beat, He pays every form, he plays

1377
01:17:27,756 --> 01:17:35,316
Speaker 4: every groove, wherever it is, he plays every presence and

1378
01:17:35,316 --> 01:17:40,756
Speaker 4: his his his, this his bareness for every beat of

1379
01:17:40,796 --> 01:17:44,356
Speaker 4: every song. Forever woe. Players pay three courses and they

1380
01:17:44,356 --> 01:17:46,996
Speaker 4: sit down and go to the bar beyond. Players clean

1381
01:17:46,996 --> 01:17:50,236
Speaker 4: their fingernails during the base so long. Trummer's always doing

1382
01:17:50,276 --> 01:17:52,436
Speaker 4: this fix or something. This is the only guy who

1383
01:17:52,476 --> 01:17:57,516
Speaker 4: does every note, and unless he improves, he can't help

1384
01:17:57,556 --> 01:18:03,356
Speaker 4: them grow. And most most badly, most members don't really

1385
01:18:03,396 --> 01:18:08,076
Speaker 4: know how to help him, and they don't know how

1386
01:18:08,156 --> 01:18:10,356
Speaker 4: to tell him what he needs to make him more

1387
01:18:10,356 --> 01:18:16,276
Speaker 4: efficient with them. And it's not just louder man. You

1388
01:18:16,316 --> 01:18:18,996
Speaker 4: know what about the note choice? How are you gonna

1389
01:18:19,036 --> 01:18:21,716
Speaker 4: mark the form for us? How you gonna get us

1390
01:18:21,756 --> 01:18:24,076
Speaker 4: in tune? You know? And I tell these guys said

1391
01:18:24,116 --> 01:18:27,396
Speaker 4: that whenever A Miles will be at the stage, he'd

1392
01:18:27,436 --> 01:18:31,076
Speaker 4: come back back in. He had two notes, he said,

1393
01:18:31,316 --> 01:18:35,596
Speaker 4: run sharper flat, say too high man, cause the hard

1394
01:18:35,636 --> 01:18:38,116
Speaker 4: got cold. All this you know deal, you know you

1395
01:18:38,396 --> 01:18:40,876
Speaker 4: check check check me out because he trusted my sense

1396
01:18:40,916 --> 01:18:44,716
Speaker 4: of this is a pitch man. I'm telling uh Russell

1397
01:18:44,956 --> 01:18:47,396
Speaker 4: sharp man, let's go man, cause it hurts my hand.

1398
01:18:47,396 --> 01:18:50,276
Speaker 4: I'm trying to find out exactly what the my base

1399
01:18:50,356 --> 01:18:51,956
Speaker 4: wants me to play the note in the same place,

1400
01:18:52,076 --> 01:18:55,796
Speaker 4: night in the night out. These guys don't allow it

1401
01:18:55,836 --> 01:18:59,316
Speaker 4: to happen. They're playing sharper flat as as they will fine,

1402
01:18:59,836 --> 01:19:02,356
Speaker 4: you know. So I think these are something on the

1403
01:19:02,356 --> 01:19:07,156
Speaker 4: base player's responsibilities. Once he understands what they are, the

1404
01:19:07,356 --> 01:19:09,636
Speaker 4: driver is to go somewhere someone who can help him

1405
01:19:09,676 --> 01:19:13,076
Speaker 4: sharpen these skills that he needs.

1406
01:19:12,796 --> 01:19:13,196
Speaker 1: To have.

1407
01:19:15,476 --> 01:19:19,196
Speaker 4: To not just be a member of the band, to be,

1408
01:19:19,956 --> 01:19:23,836
Speaker 4: but to be an integral part of the band, not

1409
01:19:23,956 --> 01:19:26,836
Speaker 4: just sin I'm in the band, in the band, yeah.

1410
01:19:26,756 --> 01:19:28,916
Speaker 2: Right, the QB.

1411
01:19:29,356 --> 01:19:33,996
Speaker 4: Yeah on my playlist right here, man, there's the changes.

1412
01:19:35,636 --> 01:19:40,996
Speaker 4: Wait guys, sorry, yeah, good one more.

1413
01:19:41,036 --> 01:19:45,556
Speaker 2: One more yeah. Well. Two studios.

1414
01:19:46,196 --> 01:19:48,236
Speaker 1: There's many great studios, but there's two studios where some

1415
01:19:48,236 --> 01:19:51,796
Speaker 1: of my favorite records have been made. One was Van

1416
01:19:51,836 --> 01:19:54,676
Speaker 1: Gelder's Place in New Jersey and the other's Columbia thirtieth

1417
01:19:54,756 --> 01:19:58,076
Speaker 1: Street Studio. And I've always been fascinated by Columbia thirty

1418
01:19:58,116 --> 01:19:59,196
Speaker 1: Street because I can't go to it.

1419
01:19:59,276 --> 01:20:03,356
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, that's not fores ye. But one of my

1420
01:20:03,356 --> 01:20:04,596
Speaker 4: favorite studios were Clinton.

1421
01:20:05,196 --> 01:20:05,716
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1422
01:20:05,716 --> 01:20:06,076
Speaker 1: Oh.

1423
01:20:06,356 --> 01:20:09,076
Speaker 4: And then right now it's a it's a flat flat

1424
01:20:09,156 --> 01:20:11,476
Speaker 4: the surface. There's nothing there at all. Man, there's the

1425
01:20:11,596 --> 01:20:15,356
Speaker 4: fence around it. It's gone. I've been gone about ten years.

1426
01:20:15,396 --> 01:20:15,996
Speaker 2: Where is it?

1427
01:20:16,116 --> 01:20:20,676
Speaker 4: Forty sixth Street and tenth Avenue. Right across the street

1428
01:20:20,756 --> 01:20:25,836
Speaker 4: was a pottery shop called Muddy Fingers, and down the

1429
01:20:25,876 --> 01:20:30,236
Speaker 4: street was the Old Folks Home. And there's two great

1430
01:20:30,356 --> 01:20:32,996
Speaker 4: great rooms. And I made some wonderful sounding record that's

1431
01:20:33,036 --> 01:20:35,236
Speaker 4: just see. The base was in charge that day.

1432
01:20:35,356 --> 01:20:35,716
Speaker 2: Wow.

1433
01:20:36,196 --> 01:20:38,916
Speaker 4: And when you get to record right, you own that sucker, man.

1434
01:20:40,396 --> 01:20:45,396
Speaker 4: I have a record called All Along, That's what it is.

1435
01:20:45,636 --> 01:20:50,036
Speaker 4: It's all alone, just me and the base sounded great

1436
01:20:50,116 --> 01:20:53,996
Speaker 4: that day and Rudy captured the greatness of the sound

1437
01:20:54,756 --> 01:20:58,316
Speaker 4: of the base. So all my stereo guys wanted to

1438
01:20:58,356 --> 01:21:00,796
Speaker 4: check their guy out this record, just to tell you

1439
01:21:00,836 --> 01:21:02,916
Speaker 4: how low it can sound good. It's just a wonderful

1440
01:21:02,996 --> 01:21:06,676
Speaker 4: sounding disc. And Columbia had that came down the sound

1441
01:21:07,596 --> 01:21:11,316
Speaker 4: weft the hall another one of my outdates with Miles.

1442
01:21:11,356 --> 01:21:15,116
Speaker 4: Like Gil Evans, it was a great sounding room, just

1443
01:21:15,116 --> 01:21:19,156
Speaker 4: because the air then then have a debase from vibrating

1444
01:21:19,196 --> 01:21:22,636
Speaker 4: to it's optimum.

1445
01:21:22,676 --> 01:21:29,436
Speaker 2: But thirty Street wasn't necessarily available to everyone. Yeah, so

1446
01:21:29,436 --> 01:21:30,436
Speaker 2: many good records there.

1447
01:21:30,356 --> 01:21:33,516
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It really really set the standard.

1448
01:21:33,596 --> 01:21:35,316
Speaker 2: Man.

1449
01:21:35,356 --> 01:21:38,556
Speaker 4: Fortunately they have able them been able to get the

1450
01:21:38,596 --> 01:21:41,156
Speaker 4: historical landmarks so that they can't tear it down and

1451
01:21:41,356 --> 01:21:43,756
Speaker 4: put a co op or a mom and pop store there.

1452
01:21:44,036 --> 01:21:46,116
Speaker 2: They did get the historical land Yeah, they did get that.

1453
01:21:46,996 --> 01:21:48,636
Speaker 4: A lot of work, a lot of paperwork, but they

1454
01:21:48,716 --> 01:21:52,836
Speaker 4: had to wherewithal and and and never give up up

1455
01:21:52,836 --> 01:21:55,156
Speaker 4: to them this to get the sucker done. And I

1456
01:21:55,556 --> 01:22:00,636
Speaker 4: applaud them every hour because Rudy's Rudy's monument. It's necessary

1457
01:22:00,676 --> 01:22:05,796
Speaker 4: to still be standing. It's not this, it's this. Can

1458
01:22:05,836 --> 01:22:09,996
Speaker 4: you imagine these guys just taking the one master tape

1459
01:22:10,116 --> 01:22:13,356
Speaker 4: and for the raise cutting it to edit distant. What

1460
01:22:13,476 --> 01:22:17,116
Speaker 4: kind of skill is that man? He didn't miss He

1461
01:22:17,196 --> 01:22:21,476
Speaker 4: nails an East one man. I'm telling you, yeah, incredible.

1462
01:22:21,716 --> 01:22:24,476
Speaker 4: Here's a really good Wherever you are, Ludy, I take

1463
01:22:24,516 --> 01:22:25,236
Speaker 4: my hat off to you.

1464
01:22:27,596 --> 01:22:31,356
Speaker 2: Earned it many Thanks so much for doing this, mister Carter.

1465
01:22:31,476 --> 01:22:34,876
Speaker 4: Thank you, my friend, Thank you, my friend.

1466
01:22:38,636 --> 01:22:40,996
Speaker 1: Thanks so much to Master Ron Carter for opening up

1467
01:22:40,996 --> 01:22:43,356
Speaker 1: to Don and me about his early life in music

1468
01:22:43,476 --> 01:22:45,236
Speaker 1: and some of the friends he made along the way.

1469
01:22:46,076 --> 01:22:48,436
Speaker 1: You can hear our favorite tracks written by or featuring

1470
01:22:48,516 --> 01:22:51,916
Speaker 1: Ron Carter on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com.

1471
01:22:52,236 --> 01:22:54,196
Speaker 1: You can also listen to this interview and other recent

1472
01:22:54,236 --> 01:22:57,636
Speaker 1: episodes at YouTube dot com. Slash Broken Record podcast goes

1473
01:22:57,676 --> 01:22:59,156
Speaker 1: all some video episodes.

1474
01:22:58,796 --> 01:22:59,316
Speaker 2: Up there too.

1475
01:23:00,236 --> 01:23:03,476
Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record PI. Broken

1476
01:23:03,476 --> 01:23:05,956
Speaker 1: Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing

1477
01:23:05,996 --> 01:23:09,716
Speaker 1: help from Derek Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is

1478
01:23:09,796 --> 01:23:13,156
Speaker 1: ben To Holliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1479
01:23:13,276 --> 01:23:15,476
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

1480
01:23:15,516 --> 01:23:19,596
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

1481
01:23:19,636 --> 01:23:22,156
Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

1482
01:23:22,316 --> 01:23:24,876
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

1483
01:23:24,956 --> 01:23:28,156
Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember

1484
01:23:28,156 --> 01:23:30,036
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app

1485
01:23:30,156 --> 01:23:30,956
Speaker 1: and on YouTube.

1486
01:23:31,276 --> 01:23:34,076
Speaker 2: By Theme Music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond,