WEBVTT - Johnny Depp's Win and the Aftermath 0:00:03.160 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.640 It was the definition of a high profile trial involving 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.560 two movie stars, their broken marriage, revelations of vicious fights, 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:22.240 alcohol and drug abuse, and claims of physical abuse by both. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.479 Johnny Depp was suing his ex wife Amber Heard for 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.640 defamation over her op ed piece which he claimed falsely 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.920 accused him of abusing her. Heard was countersuing for defamation 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.639 over statements by his lawyer which she claimed falsely accused 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.520 her of creating a hoax surrounding the abuse allegations. They 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:47.880 both testified to contradictory facts. It started with slapping um, 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:51.680 and it got to be repetitive slaps where he'd hold 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.880 me um in a position and slapped me multiple times. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:04.640 Never did I myself have reached the point of h 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.520 striking Misheard in any way, nor have I ever struck 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:16.480 any woman in my life. The jury awarded Depth ten 0:01:16.520 --> 0:01:21.280 million dollars in compensatory damages and five million impunitive damages. 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.600 After finding that herd had defamed him by claiming he 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:28.200 abused her, The jury awarded her two million dollars in 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.399 compensatory damages. For Depth's lawyer statement that she created a 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.840 hoax joining me his name of Romani, President of West 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.200 Coast Trial Lawyers. How did you see the verdict? Was 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:43.360 there a clear winner Johnny Depp one? And it wasn't closed. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.920 I would describe it as a complete and total victory, 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.560 especially after this humiliating defeat he stuff heard. When you 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.000 do the sun in the UK to what do you 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:58.360 attribute depth success? Here? Two factors likability and credibility. No 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.560 question that Johnny Depp was the more likable witnesses, both 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:04.760 inside the courtroom and in the courtroom of public opinions. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:09.000 But importantly credibility is the reason Amber heard loss. She 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.600 lied about facts that really had nothing to do with 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.440 the abuse, but her donating seven million dollars in divorce 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:18.959 pursueding secarity when she didn't do so. The jury didn't 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.520 buy that she pledged it, not donated it. And even 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:25.120 when it came to TMZ and the video that she 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.920 took on her phone made its way to TMZ, it 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.920 was leaked obviously by her or someone working in her direction. Similarly, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.200 when she fabled for the t r O the temporary 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:37.040 restraining order in two thousand and sixteen and TNZ was 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:40.320 picked up. It had to come from Amber Heard, So 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.080 when she lied about these facts, the jurors were free 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.040 to disregard her testimony entirely, and they chose to do so. Also, 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.360 she exaggerated to the extent of her injuries. She told 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.040 the jurors that she thought Johnny Depp was going to 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.679 kill her, that death hit her so many times that 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:01.000 she lost count the pictures, and even though they did 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.960 support injuries, they didn't show an attempt to murder our 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:10.160 selony assault. So for those reasons, the jurors sided with 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.200 death and it chose to punish her. What about the 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:18.240 fact that the jury awarded her two million dollars based 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.000 on some statements that were made by his lawyer. The 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:26.320 jury did, surprisingly award Amber Heard two million dollars on 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.560 only one of her counterclaims. But as you mentioned, it 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.760 wasn't a statement made by Death. It was made by 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.360 depth former divorce lawyer, Adam Waldman, and it related to 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.960 the two thousand and sixteen incident where l apt were 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:45.880 called to their downtown Los Angeles apartment, and specifically, Waldman 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:47.560 said that it was a setup and it was a 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:51.200 hoax that l APD were called, and it turned out 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.760 that amber Heard didn't make that phone call, someone from 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.440 New York did. And amber Heard didn't cooperate with l 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.520 apt when they arrived. I think based on those two 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.160 important facts, the jurors found that, you know, Waldman did 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:14.560 the same herbs importantly, because Waldman was acting as death agents, 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.400 not agents in the term of contacting agent, but the 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.559 legal term, because there was a principal agent relationship. Death 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:27.960 is responsible for Waldman's defamatory statement as a matter of law, 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:32.400 and therefore that two million dollars offset the ten point 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.640 three five million dollars at these Otherwise, oh, the total 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.240 judgment will be eight point three five millions in Johnny Depth. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.400 Savor Heard and her lawyers have said that Johnny Depp 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:46.479 had an advantage here because of his wealth, power, and fame. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.800 There's no question that the public support was overwhelmingly in 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.400 Johnny depth favor, and some of it was because the 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.120 factors outside of her control, but some of it was 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:00.200 because of her own doing self inflicted wounds or worse 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.520 errors that I like to call them. So men and 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.919 women of all generations love Johnny Depp. He's a handsome, charming, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.920 charismatic guy. Be they've in fans of his acting for 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:14.120 decades heard also is the face of the me too 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.320 movement that a lot of men unfortunately thinks has gone 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.359 too far. But obviously this is a legal case and 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.719 it should be tried in the courtroom, and the decisions 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.600 to these based on the evidence, observes or people. And 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:28.960 there's no question that Herd was less likable and that 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.479 she lost the pr battle. And because Johnny Depp was 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.800 so credible, he was still vulnerable. He talked about his 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.719 own shortcoming, his drug and alcohol abuse, the physical abuse 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.159 he suffered the hands of his parents. It's very open 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.680 and very transparent, and he owned up to a lot 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.880 of his mistakes. But Himble Herd denied everything. She denied 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.400 ever striking depth, except for one incident. She really minimized 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.400 her drug use just like he's one ton of airplane 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.320 with a flight attendant, when it was clear that she 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.320 was also using substances of death. And I think if 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:02.160 Herd had gn a more balanced approach and she had 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.880 said that she was also verbally abusive, this is a 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.080 mutually violent relationship. They were both victims, they were both perpetrators. 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:10.839 I think that would have been a pass to victory. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.400 But for her in statistic extreme positions. You didn't accept 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.560 any responsibility for anything that happened during the course of 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.360 the relationship, and I think as a result, people didn't 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.280 find her likable or credited. Why do you think he 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.960 lost the UK case where the standard for libel is 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.599 less than it is here, and yet he won this case. 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:37.240 What made the difference? It's very surprising standard is higher 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:41.039 for a planet here in the United States. We talked 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.360 about that clear and convincing standard because John, that's the 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.120 public figure, has to show actual malice, whereas in the UK, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.039 verden is on the defendant the sons to prove that 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.960 the statements were substantially true. That's why a lot of 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.920 legal compensators, including myself, thought that it was a mistake 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.320 for him to file directly against her here in the 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.320 United States and he would lose again. What turns out 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:07.640 this was both an extraordinary legal comeback but really public 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:11.680 relations genius moved by doing so. You know, my twenty 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.640 years of practice, I've never seen someone come back like this. 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:18.960 How much was it the lawyering? It seemed like Herd's 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:23.720 lawyers were just out lawyered by Depth's team. They were 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:28.240 obviously Heard made her mistakes for her lawyers similarly made 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.840 a number of strategic legal mistakes. We can go through them. 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.320 The most important which one They ran out of time? Um, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.000 they used far too much time doing a very slow 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:41.480 crosses examination during Depth take in chiefs. In fact, when 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.080 Depth team initially rested, hers lawyers had to use more 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.760 time than Depth did, so they ran out of time 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.080 and to go through witness quickly and the end, and 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.440 couldn't call witnesses if they wanted to call. Other strategic 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.480 mistakes include, frankly, Elaine bedehof handling Camille bass As his 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.320 objections very poorly. Someone who's a practicing law for almost 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.040 four years is a basic evidentiary objection Where you learned 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.880 and your specond her of law school And for anyone 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.760 who followed the trial on TV or on social media, 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.760 it's clear that she was unable to reformulate a question 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.000 to overcome the objections. You know, there were a few 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:21.800 in the person witnesses supporting Amber Heard and deposition testimony 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.720 isn't the same. Remember herself testified waitning here to testify. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.040 There were some paid experts to show us in person, 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.880 but everyone else testified. Your video tape deposition and it 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.760 is not the thing. Um. Similarly, they focused too much 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:38.400 on drug and alcohol abuse, and it's clear that Johnny 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.720 does have a substance. To these films who've admitted it. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.360 This is the case of physical violence, case for sexual violence. 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.280 That should have been the focus, not the fact that 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.160 Amber and Johnny were arguing and you know he would 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:54.040 get swungs and you know abuse tou So they really 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.120 lost their focus. And frankly, they don't really control their clients. 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:00.960 You know, Amber heard had testified to fully that she 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:04.199 intended to donate seven million dollars to charity, but you know, 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.600 ranting to financial problems and you know, I had to 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:08.719 keep the money and she was embarrassed, and that's why 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:13.160 she allied, since that would come across much more credible. UM. Similarly, 0:09:13.320 --> 0:09:16.920 she admitted to leaking the video of CMD because she 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.880 wanted the public support because everyone likes Johnny Depp, and 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.520 then that would have been more believable. And they so 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.320 both the legal strategy was for and in terms of 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:31.760 prepping the witness to testify, I think they did not 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.120 do as good as a job as they could. Happen, 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.480 didn't make a difference that they brought the case that 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:43.959 Depp brought the case in Virginia instead of California. It did. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:46.360 It made a big difference because First Amendment laws and 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.439 more friendly here in Los Angeles, California, where I practice. 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.920 There's something that's called an anti slap statches that allowed 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.920 the judges tend to be liberal here in Los Angeles 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.400 to dismiss definations before they go to a jury trial. 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.000 Never strong here. The next to the best venue would 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.000 have been New York for the A C l U, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.240 which is pretty liberal as well Northern Virginia where the 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:15.640 Washington Posted headquarters and their servers are. It's not a 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:20.040 bad venue for defendant in a defamation case, but it's 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.720 probably not as of l A or York tends to 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.960 be a more of a purple state in terms of 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.080 the dury pool. So it was somewhat favorable for death 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.280 but certainly not a favorable as the UK does the 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.040 same as if the jury really carefully considered each claim 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:44.120 separately and follow the judge's instructions, it's questionable that they 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:48.640 understood the damages portion because they did return the verdict 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:53.080 on one claim without a new damages So this is 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:57.240 a complicated case, there's three alleged defamatory statements on both 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:03.080 sides that higher burden approved, there's alice compensatory damages, there's 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.240 punitive damages. This look they ultimately got it right, but 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.319 at least during the initial verdict that they completed, and 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.920 they must have been some complete would you surprise that 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.720 they came back for punitive damages when, as you said, 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.680 it appeared to be a mutually abusive relationship in a 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:28.400 lot of respects. Anytime you proved intentional conduct or reckless 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:33.600 conduct punitives on play. Obviously, to prove malice depths, Plays 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.920 had to prove that heard knew she was lying when 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.720 she published the statement, or she acted in a reckless 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:43.040 disregard for the truth. That being said, you know, five 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.560 million dollars and punitive damages when Johnny Depp Players didn't 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:51.720 ask for any specific damage amount during closing was surprising 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.040 to me and one of the reasons why I believe 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.360 this was an overwhelming win for Johnny Depp. This is 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:02.520 one case based on the unique facts here, but a 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.880 lot of legal experts are saying it will have a 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:08.840 chilling effect on women coming forward in the future to 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.720 bring cases of domestic violence there's a huge step back. 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.240 Let's be honest, sexual assaults domestic violence, those are two 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:19.199 of the most hunder reported clients in the country. Women 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:22.319 are hesitant to come forward, and there's many reasons, but 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.440 one of the primary reasons is the disparity and power 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.760 and wealth. Oftentimes the men that are used their athletes, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:34.080 they're entertainers, of politicians, their CEOs, their men have significant means. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.040 And now women find themselves in a position where they 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.560 may be sued by the men that they're accusing. And 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.600 the men have hundreds of thousands or even millions of 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.160 dollars to subject them to civil litigation and also higher 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.080 attorneys to defend themselves, and they may not have that money. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.520 So it's going to give them one more reason to 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.959 potentially not report the abuse to the assaults for law 0:12:56.080 --> 0:13:00.679 enforcement or medical personnel. I think it will also emboldened 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.560 men who file these text to cases. I mean, it's 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:08.920 all started really with President Trump, who's defamation lawsuits to 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.400 really pressure its political adversaries. And I'm not comparing death 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.320 to the former president, but you know, to the sense 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:20.359 that men are accused and they think that's been falsely accused. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.800 Sometimes the best defense is a good offense, and we're 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.280 going to see copycat litigation. There's no doubt in my 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.920 mind her it is going to appeal. What are her 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.240 chances it will be up to a battle. I don't 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.439 see any good legal basis for appeal the rest of 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.320 the illegal error. And I know they've talked about the 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.920 UK judgment not coming in and some of the social 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:45.199 media presidents, but I don't think the judges of anything wrong. 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.559 The UK case is obviously different case, different parties, and 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.120 heard looking a party to that case, different law that applies, 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:55.080 but really has no presidential impacts here, really social media, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.680 not much the judge can do. The judged that potentially 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.120 sequestioned the juror that rarely, if ever happens in a 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.160 civil case. You just don't have the same rights that 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.600 you do as a criminal defendant. Um And apparently there 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.640 was some evidence that was excuted. But what I saw 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:11.520 from the judge is the judges scouted a lot of 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.280 the good evidence for Johnny depth but the Kate Moss 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:18.400 and the Seattle police officer so imember her to open 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:21.480 the door and talked about Kate Moss and says that 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.520 she had never been abused as towards the next so 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:26.680 and the judge called it pretty fairly. You can't appeal 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:31.200 a factual decision by a jury, such as credibility issues 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.480 and those types of things. So I understand why Amber 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:37.040 Heard is going to appeal because you know, her back 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.320 is up against the wall and she needs to clear 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.680 her name. And she's now probably one of the most 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.440 despised women in America right now because of this case 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.520 in social media. So this is her one chance and 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:52.760 as opposed to trying to negotiate a lesser payout and 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.440 exchange for the waves of the feel I do expect 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.640 that appeals to happen, but I don't think the appeal 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:02.920 will be heard. Will appeal interestful accrue on the judgment 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:08.600 while that appeals attending. And importantly, because death proved that 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.200 the defamatory statements were intentional, not only heeded a damages, 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:19.240 but the claims aren't dischargeable in bankrupt So Abho is 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.320 not going to go file after seven or eleven and 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.800 get out of this judgment. This is a non dischargeable judgment. 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:31.800 No thanks, NeiMa. That's trial lawyer NeiMa Romani. Neither a 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.680 mountain of litigation nor a new pro worker law in 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.920 California have caused sweeping changes in strip clubs, so the 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.880 dancers are turning to unions as a way to improve 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.920 their conditions. Joining me is Aaron mulveney, Bloomberg Law senior 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.640 reporter who has researched and written about this issue. Why 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.640 is there an effort to unionize strippers? The push for 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:56.800 a union in California um goes back to something that 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.440 actually is a nationwide practice with strip clubs. These answers 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:04.480 are largely classified. The practices are pretty uniform that they 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.640 would be classified as independent contractors, which on one hand, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.360 means that all of the tips that the dancers are 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.120 and they get to take home and that's their go 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.560 home pay, and a lot of dancers historically have said 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.040 that that means that they can take home up to 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.880 a fifteen hundred dollars a night. But through hundreds and 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.240 hundreds of lawsuits filed in recent years, there has been 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:32.720 an issue with that classification because if you're an independent contractor, 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:37.600 you don't have the right to workers compensation if you're injured, 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.440 and minimum wage over time. And then there are a 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:46.400 lot of practices that are also problematic where clubs will 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:50.280 charge stage fees to dance, and so you could technically 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.600 end up in the red if customers don't show up, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.160 or you don't get tips that night, or you don't 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:56.520 get a desirable shift. And of course this is a 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.920 broad brush, but there have been many losses over the 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.120 years nationwide that have said that dancers have been exploited, 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.560 have been harassed, have been in really dangerous working conditions, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.960 and have little rights because of the way they're classified. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.480 And then into this situation in California, there's a law 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.520 that was passed that makes it much harder for most 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.800 businesses to classify workers this way, and a lot of 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.360 strippers that I spoke to said the strip club haven't 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.639 necessarily changed their practices. And the other thing that's been 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.840 going on is that the pandemic made it much harder 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.399 with the customer base being a lot slower and the 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.040 club's meeting more dancers. And there have just been a 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:40.080 lot of problems with pushback in the workplace where workers 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.159 don't really feel like they have the same rights or 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.840 respect other workers. And it's things that are sadly very 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.000 entrenched in the system. As far as you know, the 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.680 bad working conditions tell us about some of the problems 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.679 they have on stage, at least for some of the 0:17:55.680 --> 0:18:00.000 strippers who are dancing at some of these clubs. They 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:04.080 say that there have been unsafe conditions on the stage 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.639 where the stage isn't built properly while they're dancing, or 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.800 there has been glass on the floor that hasn't been 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:13.600 cleaned up or addressed. Other safety conditions are less direct 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.400 like that, and there might be if a customer across 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.720 the line and they feel like their safety is at risk, 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.880 which I think happens in the stutting where there's alcohol involved, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.160 and that in the nature of sex work sometimes could 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:29.199 draw that out. But you know, again, these women or 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.680 men are workers and they deserve respect and protection in 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.360 the workplace just like anybody else. They don't have workers 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:40.080 comp to fall back on if they get injury. I'm 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.600 wondering if it's harder to unionize strippers as opposed to 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.720 other kinds of workers. You talk to Selena, the president 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.520 of the independent union Strippers United, and she said strippers 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.240 are treated like they aren't valuable, and they've internalized that. 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.760 They don't always see themselves as deserving of rights. What's 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.200 the Lena expressed after speaking with a lot of different 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:08.679 dancers around the state in California is that they are 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:13.480 all experiencing similar problems. But the way that these strip 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.000 clubs have operated in the past, dancers, they've often been 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:21.600 independent and they fear often retaliation if they speak out. 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:24.159 And so these are things that are really counter to 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:27.280 what a union is all about, you know, joining together 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:30.760 as workers. So what the leaders of the union effort 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.639 are trying to do is change the DNA of of 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:40.000 how these dancers think about themselves as workers and valuing 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.959 themselves and the respect that they deserve, because honestly, there 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.320 wouldn't be strip clubs about these dancers, and they face 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.879 a lot of dangerous working conditions in so many ways. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:52.760 But often at least Selina says, she hears a lot 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.840 of stories about more dramatic exploitation than you might hear 0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.080 about in other industries. The labor push in Californi and 0:20:00.160 --> 0:20:04.080 it comes against what you, right, is a backdrop of 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.320 a mountain of litigation. Just tell us a little about 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:12.560 that litigation. Sure, So it also goes back to what 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.639 I was explaining about how a lot of the practices 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.720 around the country rely on independent contractor relationships and that 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.840 has there was kind of a wave of lawsuits that 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.320 we're targeting strip clubs of at the last decade because 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.320 there are violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act potentially, 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.639 and and Austin strippers have won these fights, you know, 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.840 against individual strip clubs and one major settlements around the country, 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.920 and these have been happening pretty frequently. What we see 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.920 though is that, you know, the strip clubs can pay 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.679 a settlement, but practices have largely remained uniform throughout the industry. 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.520 And part of it is because strippers can make a 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.280 lot of take home pay, but with that they lose 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:57.600 a safety net that like an employment relationship would have. 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:00.800 So you have lawsuits on one hand, but you're not 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.000 seeing dramatic change in the industry. Over the years, several 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.280 courts have ruled that strippers are legally employees under wage 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:11.040 and our laws, not independent contractors. But are you saying 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:15.080 that the strip clubs don't honor that right? And there 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.920 are so many strip clubs. There are major franchises though, 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.440 for example, um one of the largest is Deja Vu, 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:25.040 and I spoke with the CEO of that company and 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.159 what he has told me before is in the settlements 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:31.560 where a court has ruled or settled that they do 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.760 need to change their classification to employees. So many of 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:39.600 his competitors do not change their classification and he loses 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.840 dancers or the club isn't profitable enough. So I think 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.840 would need to happen on a broader scale in order 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:49.200 to completely change Can you give us a little more 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:54.280 detail about why legislation isn't the answer? So for this article, 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.400 I spoke with a lot of attorneys who hear from 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.760 strippers and dancers themselves, and strip club opera waters and 0:22:00.800 --> 0:22:03.760 so I can't speak for every single strip club in California, 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.800 but the state law that was intended to change my 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.399 classification to contractors, according to these people, these stakeholders that 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:17.280 I spoke to haven't necessarily changed their practices. They'll create 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:22.639 contracts to make dancers owners of the club or charge 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:27.000 them for rent time on the stage, and arguably those 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:31.080 could be subject to a lawsuit, but they might be 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.359 too small to be worth it to a plainists firm, 0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:36.359 and that would be the way that that would be enforced. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:38.840 So yes, I think that a lot of strip clubs 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.439 haven't changed their practices, even in California where there are 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.480 much stricter worker protections currently, and a lot of the 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:50.360 dancers who have become employees are finding themselves with part 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:53.040 time work as opposed to getting to work longer and 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:56.120 make more money potentially, and they'll have to be scheduled, 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:59.520 they might not get a desirable time. So Selena, for example, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.000 told me that she thinks things have gotten worse to 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.520 some extent for the dancers. Let's talk about the other 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:08.840 side of the story, because you talked to some strip 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:13.000 club operators and tell us what they claim about clubs 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:17.600 shutting down and people losing out on work. So the 0:23:17.640 --> 0:23:20.040 CEO of Deja Zu spoke to me, and that's one 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:22.640 of the largest strip club operators in the US, and 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:26.720 he said seven of his clubs in California became unprofitable 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:28.919 and after the new law that we were discussing in 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:33.800 California and after settlements required him to classify dancers as employees, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.120 and dancers of those clubs only get part time shifts, 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:40.280 which obviously is less ideal than a full employment um 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:42.879 job and relationship, because that's when you would get access 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:46.600 to full benefits. He also spoke of losing dancers to 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:51.320 competitors who still have the traditional independent contractor relationship, and 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:55.680 from his perspective, he thinks that the employment model doesn't 0:23:55.720 --> 0:24:00.040 offer what the strip club business needs, including for the 0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:04.000 dancers themselves. Has there ever been a unionized strip club? Yes, 0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.800 there was an effort in San Francisco and a strip 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.359