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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 4: Joining us now is Times of Israel journalist Haave Brett

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Speaker 4: to girth have you. Thank you so much for joining us,

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me and so so the audience

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Speaker 4: understands kind of where you are and the spectrum when

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Speaker 4: it comes to Israeli politics. I had said at the

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Speaker 4: top of the show that you were a couple of

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Speaker 4: ticks to the right of net and Yahoo. But correct

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Speaker 4: me if I'm where would you say that you are

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Speaker 4: kind of politically just so people have the proper context

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Speaker 4: for evaluating.

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Speaker 5: A journalist, I'm objective Mars obviously right here. I am

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Speaker 5: a big fan of some ideas on the left. I

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Speaker 5: am still think two state solution is doable. I think,

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Speaker 5: in fact, everything else that I've ever heard is less

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Speaker 5: likely and less doable. And on a lot of social

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Speaker 5: issues and cultural issues, I'm pretty liberal. Specifically on the

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Speaker 5: question of Iran and the question of Israeli capabilities and

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Speaker 5: the question of how this war has been handled. It

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Speaker 5: is my view that the Biden administration's humanitarianism constantly pressuring

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Speaker 5: the Israelis to slow down, has hurt everybody, mostly Palestinian civilians. Definitely,

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Speaker 5: the hostages in the dungeons in Gaza, and Israeli soldiers

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Speaker 5: have died because for periods of four months or more

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Speaker 5: the Israeli army had to stop in Gaza because they

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Speaker 5: couldn't go into Rafa. Things like that. There is a

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Speaker 5: way to prosecute this war, and to do it slowly

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Speaker 5: is the worst possible way. Israel has escalation dominance visa

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Speaker 5: of Iran, and the only way to avoid a destructive

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Speaker 5: Worren Lebanon I argued ten months ago is to have

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Speaker 5: an exchange with Iran. So what does that put me?

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Speaker 5: I'm very hawkish in that sense, but I don't think

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Speaker 5: I'm actually on the right.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go with that.

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Speaker 4: So we put up this first element over the report

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Speaker 4: over a drop site news. But there's been a lot

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Speaker 4: of reporting in the Israeli press and elsewhere about the

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Speaker 4: kind of rise of looting going on in Gaza at

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Speaker 4: the hands of the gangs.

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Speaker 1: As we report over drop site, the.

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Speaker 4: Kind of Hamas led security forces are now launching kind

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Speaker 4: of a counter attack ambushed, ambushed a group of hijackers

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Speaker 4: who killing at least twenty of them, it appears. And

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Speaker 4: the argument that's being made by and you've seen the

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Speaker 4: reporting in aw Rats, I'm curious if Times of Israel

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Speaker 4: has done so reporting on this as well. But the

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Speaker 4: argument that Hamas is also making is that ever since

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Speaker 4: Israel took over Rafa, looting within the looting within that

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Speaker 4: area has dramatically increased, and that the IDEF calls it

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Speaker 4: the looting zone. The United Nations yesterday said that Kogat

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Speaker 4: urged a last minute shift in the route that these

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Speaker 4: one hundred and nine AID trucks took and it put

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Speaker 4: them right into the sites of the hijackers. So there

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Speaker 4: are a lot of suggestions both in Israeli media and

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Speaker 4: from Gozans that there's some collaboration going on between between

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Speaker 4: Israel and these and these gangs, these well organized gangs

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Speaker 4: are now hijacking trucks.

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Speaker 1: What's your understanding of what's going on there?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's there's so much to unpack there. Yeah, the

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Speaker 5: United Nations lost something like ninety seven trucks United Nations

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Speaker 5: out of a convoy of I believe one hundred and nine.

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Speaker 5: The United Nations cannot distribute aid in Gaza. There are

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Speaker 5: nine hundred truckloads worth of AID sitting on the Gaza

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Speaker 5: side of the Caram shaloone crossing that they simply can't distribute.

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Speaker 5: When the UN is asked by journalists why you know

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Speaker 5: what it would take for them to distribute, they say,

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Speaker 5: Israeli protection. And when they then say to them, well

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Speaker 5: why doesn't the Israeli army accompany the convoys, they then say, well,

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Speaker 5: they can't accompany the convoys because that'll make the convoys

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Speaker 5: a target of the other side. There is no force,

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Speaker 5: no criminal gang, no clan, no family, no These are

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Speaker 5: all these terms used to describe a real social reality

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Speaker 5: on the ground in Gaza. There is no force big

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Speaker 5: enough to take ninety seven trucks out of the hands

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Speaker 5: of the UN except Framas in the certain areas where

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Speaker 5: the Israelis aren't operating. So the very idea that ninety

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Speaker 5: seven of these trucks are lost, the UN says something

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Speaker 5: about it doesn't say who it is, doesn't say who

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Speaker 5: it suspects it is, doesn't say if these items have

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Speaker 5: shown up on the black market in Gaza being sold

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Speaker 5: by certain parties or other parts. It's all very, very

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Speaker 5: strangely vague. And then there's this argument that in fact

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Speaker 5: it's not Tramas. It can't be anyone but Tramas Ramas

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Speaker 5: is still sufficiently strong in Gaza to not allow anyone

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Speaker 5: else to come in. The irony is that a few

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Speaker 5: months back, I think probably five months ago something like that,

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Speaker 5: the Israeli Army tried to build out a separate a

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Speaker 5: distribution system, working with these clans, which are just an

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Speaker 5: important social structure in Gazan society, that also sometimes built

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Speaker 5: out organized crime syndicates, and the two AID convoys that

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Speaker 5: worked with the Israeli Army. Publicly, this is known, and

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Speaker 5: this is something that nobody has hidden were intercepted and

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Speaker 5: massacred by Rama's forces, and so Israel hasn't actually trusted

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Speaker 5: the clans to be capable of actually doing the distribution

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Speaker 5: and holding their own in Gaza. There is no one

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Speaker 5: in Gaza who could have taken those trucks except Tramas.

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Speaker 5: Therefore my conclusion, I have not heard evidence. I've seen

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Speaker 5: a lot of this desperate speculation hoping to avoid the

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Speaker 5: very idea that Hamas might be the bad guys in

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Speaker 5: any scenario, But I haven't actually seen any evidence that

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Speaker 5: suggests that anyone else even remotely has the capability, and so,

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Speaker 5: falling back on these conspiracies of the Israelis, the Israelis

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Speaker 5: would love the AID to get distributed in ways that

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Speaker 5: totally bypass Hamas. It would get a lot of pressure

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Speaker 5: off of them, and nobody quite knows how because Ramas

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Speaker 5: is sufficiently strong to continue disrupting the AID.

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Speaker 1: Emily has a question. A segment was curious.

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Speaker 4: Yaser Abu Shabab is the leader of the hijacking group

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Speaker 4: that Hamas claims to have sent it security forces to

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Speaker 4: ambush and attack.

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Speaker 1: He was killed in this attack.

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Speaker 4: What's the theory for why the security forces launched this ambush?

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Speaker 4: Of these of these hijackers, If the hijackers were actually Hamas.

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Speaker 5: That there's some chance that they were piecing together some

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Speaker 5: kind of an organization that was capable of working with

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Speaker 5: the Israelis, or that they needed somebody to massacre to

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Speaker 5: make this case, and that's it's more likely. It's more

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Speaker 5: likely than that ninety seven trucks were taken by those

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Speaker 5: twenty people. It's more likely than that there is a

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Speaker 5: plan nobody's ever heard of before.

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Speaker 6: Well, you just mentioned something interesting in your answer about

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Speaker 6: how Hamas is still and he's sufficiently strong, and I

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Speaker 6: think that's a really important point, and I want to ask,

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Speaker 6: I probably disagree with the argument, but is that part

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Speaker 6: of because I think there are some hawkish people who

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Speaker 6: will say, you know, Hamas has been basically vanquished and destroyed,

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Speaker 6: and that seems to me a dishonest argument. There has

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Speaker 6: been a lot of destruction, but Hamas has reconstituted itself

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Speaker 6: in like northern Gaza for example, and is still there.

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Speaker 6: It's still you know, in dealing with infrastructure and all

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Speaker 6: of those sort of a vacuum obviously, so who else

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Speaker 6: would fill it but Hamas does? This is this part

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Speaker 6: of your argument as to why the humanitarianism, as you

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Speaker 6: put it, of the Biden administration is insufficient and has

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Speaker 6: been cruel, as you put it earlier, to the people

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Speaker 6: of the Palestinians, the people of Gaza, because it sort

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Speaker 6: of drags the conflict out longer than otherwise it could

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Speaker 6: have been.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, the best way I think to think

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Speaker 5: about this is to distinguish the Lebanon situation from the

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Speaker 5: Daza situation. In Lebanon, the Israel's supreme interest is at

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Speaker 5: some point pretty soon to end it. And the reason

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Speaker 5: is that it achieved a tremendous amount in Lebanon in

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Speaker 5: terms of weakening Hasbel as shattering Krasbela and at incredibly

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Speaker 5: low cost. And as it sticks around, and as it

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Speaker 5: expands the war, and as it maybe goes deeper, and

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Speaker 5: as Lebanon itself has no other Israel will start being

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Speaker 5: higher cost and for much lower return. And so right

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Speaker 5: now there isn't a real ceasefire negotiation process that the

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Speaker 5: Israelis are interested in. Krisbelah took such a blow that

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Speaker 5: Krisbelah is interested in. Kasbela's patrons in Iran feel like

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Speaker 5: they're on their back feet and they're interested in so

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Speaker 5: there's a real likelihood, and every one of the parties

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Speaker 5: wants it, but they're trying to shape how it looks

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Speaker 5: and how they defined the story of it for a ceasefire.

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Speaker 5: The problem that Israel has in Gaza, the security problem

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Speaker 5: Israel has in Gaza, is very very simple. There is

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Speaker 5: no other rest of Gaza other than Tramas. In other words,

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Speaker 5: in Lebanon, there's a lot of other factions and groups

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Speaker 5: and political organizations and even kind of militias. And there's

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Speaker 5: the Lebanese Army which has refused to engage the Israelis

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Speaker 5: because they know Israel' that were with Resbla and not

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Speaker 5: with Lebanon. All of that other rest of the polity

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Speaker 5: that can step into fill the vacuum doesn't exist in Gaza.

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Speaker 5: There is only Ramas. And Israel adopted a doctrine kind

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Speaker 5: of learned from Afghanistan, the American mistake in Afghanistan. Part

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Speaker 5: of the American mistake was something called the clear and

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Speaker 5: whole doctrine, which is that they cleared a valley, they

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Speaker 5: took the valley, they cleared the valley, and then they

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Speaker 5: held it with a marine detachment or an army detachment,

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Speaker 5: so that the Taliban couldn't regroup there. What that ended

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Speaker 5: up creating was many, many thousands of targets for the

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Speaker 5: Gorillas all over Afghanistan. It ended up being a major

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Speaker 5: source of pain and a major obstacle to the America

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Speaker 5: achieving its goals in Afghanistan. So Israel has something that

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Speaker 5: Israel has the opposite of that. In Gaza. Tramas is

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Speaker 5: buried underground in five hundred kilometers of tunnels. It spent

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Speaker 5: seventeen years building and it's the single biggest thing Palestinians

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Speaker 5: have ever built. And Tamas bent Gaza's entire economy to

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Speaker 5: building these tunnels, and in thirteen months of war, not

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Speaker 5: a single civilian has been documented being allowed into the

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Speaker 5: tunnels for safety. And so Israel's goal is to get

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Speaker 5: Ramas out of those tunnels, to engage them, and to

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Speaker 5: destroy them. How do you do that. You take an

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Speaker 5: area with Ramas and then you pull out, and Ramas

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Speaker 5: comes back, and then you take that area again. And

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Speaker 5: so literally everywhere in Gaza you've seen three, four or

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Speaker 5: five Israeli entries, and each time in Israeli pull out

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Speaker 5: to kind of reverse the clear and hold problem. So

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Speaker 5: right now, what we're talking about is a Gaza in

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Speaker 5: which Ramas has sections of its organization still underground, sections

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Speaker 5: of its organization that come up and taken take control.

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Speaker 5: No one else who can fill that gap. There's no

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Speaker 5: serious organization with guns and popular support of any kind,

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Speaker 5: even in small areas of Gaza, that can fill the gap.

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Speaker 5: There is only Haramas. I haven't described to you the solution.

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Speaker 5: I've just described you the problem that nobody has a

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Speaker 5: solution for. Not Biden, not the left, not the right,

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Speaker 5: not Nitagnallo, not progressives in America. Nobody quite knows what

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Speaker 5: takes over Gaza after Hamas. And let me just say

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Speaker 5: one last sentence about that, because this is fundamental. If

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Speaker 5: Ramas can't be removed from Gaza, nobody knows how to rebuild.

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Speaker 5: Nobody knows how to push the ceasefire forward. You can't

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Speaker 5: dump a hundred billion dollars on Gaza and actually have

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Speaker 5: it rebuilt if Ramas is the one passing out the money.

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Speaker 5: So Gaza is a huge problem, and Tramas is the

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Speaker 5: name of that problem, and there's no perfect solution for it.

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Speaker 5: What the Israelis are hoping for is a long degradation war.

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Speaker 5: It's going to be two years, three years, and eventually

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Speaker 5: Ramas will slowly be degraded enough that other solutions can

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Speaker 5: come to play.

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Speaker 4: So the United States eventually said, you know what, why

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Speaker 4: don't we just withdraw from Afghanistan. Hamas is saying that

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Speaker 4: if Israel withdraw from Gaza, it will release the hostages.

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Speaker 1: Why not take that deal?

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Speaker 5: Why not take the deal that you end the war

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Speaker 5: and release the hostages. Yeah, Tamas has not ever said that.

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Speaker 5: It said this, by the way, the week after October seven,

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Speaker 5: I mean it said it immediately. No, no, no, no war.

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Speaker 5: We're fine, We're totally fine. Here's all your hostage is back,

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Speaker 5: but totally end to the war. There's simply two points.

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Speaker 5: First of all, that's not true. Ramas has always added

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Speaker 5: massive other stipulations having to do with the West Bank,

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Speaker 5: having to do with prisoners, including prisoners who are massive

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Speaker 5: murderers in Israeli prisons and by the thousands. There's never

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Speaker 5: been a Ramas statement that it said, just let's end it,

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Speaker 5: just let's end the war. Go back to October sixth,

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Speaker 5: nothing happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, they buy something.

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Speaker 4: They've said they would accept the framework that was put

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Speaker 4: through by the NENNA, who's work Cabinet and then announced

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Speaker 4: by Biden in July.

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Speaker 5: Right then they say that it's an interesting thing. First

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Speaker 5: of all, that's a very temporary, tiny little deal that

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Speaker 5: leaves a great meant most of the hostages still in

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Speaker 5: Kramas's hands. That's first of all. Second of all, and

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Speaker 5: that they have occasionally leaked to the Secondly, we don't

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Speaker 5: actually know. We know a lot of things. The Kataris said.

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Speaker 5: They said, we know a lot of things. The Egyptians claimed.

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Speaker 5: They might have said at some point, probably we know

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Speaker 5: all this stuff from sort of unsubstantiated leaks that actual

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Speaker 5: officials won't confirm. There has never been. I'm a huge

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Speaker 5: critic of Nintagnelle. I think nintagne is fundamental strategy led

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Speaker 5: to October seven, and I think he has led since

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Speaker 5: October seven, fundamentally while politicking. He launched his political survival

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Speaker 5: campaign on October eighth, and I feel betrayed by him

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Speaker 5: as my prime minister. But there has never been a

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Speaker 5: Ramas deal for him to say no to on all

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Speaker 5: the hostages. There's been a deal on thirty hostages in

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Speaker 5: exchange for forty two days if you pull out of

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Speaker 5: the Philadelphia Corridor. Big complicated question to get into it,

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Speaker 5: if that's interesting. But this idea that there's an end

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Speaker 5: to the war and all the hostages come back, there

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Speaker 5: has never from Tramas been a deal like that on

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Speaker 5: the table. And even things that come even in the

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Speaker 5: general ballpark of that have been Katari statements that nobody

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Speaker 5: has ever been able to confirm. When Tramas had a working,

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Speaker 5: functioning leadership, namely Sinoir, it would have been entirely possible

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Speaker 5: to produce that Ramas statement. It no longer has. That

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Speaker 5: is Mohammed Sinoir, his brother, the guy in charge. Nobody

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Speaker 5: quite knows. So there simply isn't such a deal on

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Speaker 5: the table, and the idea that you would pull out

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Speaker 5: and let Tramas come back in and just retake Guza

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Speaker 5: now and by the way, have this war again in

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Speaker 5: three years or five years and never rebuild Gus. I mean, truly,

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Speaker 5: you can think the Israelis are monsters. It doesn't change

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Speaker 5: the fundamental problem of Ramas. It really doesn't change it.

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Speaker 5: So if you can't, if you don't have a solution

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Speaker 5: to how to install something after Tramas or how to

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Speaker 5: remove Ramas sufficiently degrede it sufficiently to put something else in.

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Speaker 5: It doesn't really matter what the Israelis do. There is

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Speaker 5: no day after until that can happen.

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Speaker 1: It feels like the Israeli plan.

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Speaker 4: And tell me if you think this is an accurate

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Speaker 4: description of it feels like the Israeli plan at this

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Speaker 4: point is these kind of ongoing what you'd call occupation

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Speaker 4: slash intervention in different areas, you know, go into particular

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Speaker 4: areas and push the people out, leave there, people come back,

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Speaker 4: go back in, combined with watching and maybe facilitating Gaza

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Speaker 4: turn into you know, a warring faction of clans against

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Speaker 4: clans and gangs against gangs against gangs, which then a

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Speaker 4: divided Gaza then is less of a threat to Israel

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Speaker 4: and that you just live to fight another day endlessly

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Speaker 4: rather than kind of settle on a long term solution

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Speaker 4: of coexistence. Is that what you see actually happening, put

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Speaker 4: aside what people want, It just feels like that's where

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Speaker 4: it's going.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean you phrase that in a way that

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Speaker 5: suggests this is the Israeli plan. That might be kind

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Speaker 5: of what everything defaults to because nobody.

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Speaker 4: Can because maybe we can make progress and thinking about

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Speaker 4: it by setting aside what the quote plan is and

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Speaker 4: just talking about what's actually going to happen.

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Speaker 5: What is actually happening is that when you remove Tramas,

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Speaker 5: half of the Gazan population is under eighteen and Ramas

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Speaker 5: ran the schools for seventeen years. When you the idea

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Speaker 5: of removing Ramas from Gaza is a much deeper and

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Speaker 5: more profound problem than the strict military problem, which Ramas

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Speaker 5: built Gaza into a battlefield for a war in which

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Speaker 5: it would be impossible to remove it at a scale

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Speaker 5: never before seen in the history of warfare. There's nothing

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Speaker 5: like those tunnels. The viet Cong built quite a few tunnels.

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Speaker 5: I don't think it's twenty percent of what Ramas built

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Speaker 5: in Gaza in a much smaller area. And so Ramas

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Speaker 5: produced a situation in which getting it out requires essentially

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Speaker 5: this kind of war. I don't mean to suggest that

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Speaker 5: every single Israeli airstrike is legitimate. I'm just saying there

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Speaker 5: isn't fundamentally a different kind of war if you actually

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Speaker 5: want to remove Kramas from Gaza, and Ramas made sure

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Speaker 5: of it. And then there's the deeper point, which is

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Speaker 5: the educational, religious sort of narrative point. Ramas tells Gosins

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Speaker 5: that they are not suffering for nothing. They are suffering

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Speaker 5: because they are the vanguard of a great Islamic restoration

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Speaker 5: after centuries of weakness, and the great war against the

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Speaker 5: Jews is that fundamental war for the restoration of all Islam.

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Speaker 5: To a lot of Gazins who hate Ramas, there's also

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Speaker 5: a deep appreciation of that story of dignity. And so

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Speaker 5: when you actually start to map out what it would

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Speaker 5: mean to remove Kramas from Gaza, it turns out to

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Speaker 5: be this immense military problem, an immense cultural problem, an

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Speaker 5: immense religious problem, a problem that Jews can't do. Jews

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Speaker 5: are not going to go into Gaza and talk to

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Speaker 5: Gosins about their religion. But that's also fundamental to removing

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Speaker 5: Kramas from Gaza. And so there has to be in

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Speaker 5: Gaza a much larger sense of the scale of the

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Speaker 5: problem and of the desperate need for the problem. If

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Speaker 5: Ramas remains in Gaza, Gaza will remain destroyed no matter

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Speaker 5: what Israel truly. I mean, if the Israeli Prime Minister

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Speaker 5: becomes the head of the most far left progressive party

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Speaker 5: in the Israeli Kannesse, there is nothing you can do

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Speaker 5: for Gaza as long as Kramas rules it, and so

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Speaker 5: how does that day after? Look, what is the role

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Speaker 5: of the Arab States, What is the role of the

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Speaker 5: Muslim world, What is the role of building out a

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Speaker 5: Gaza that's different. Lebanon has a much better future ahead

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Speaker 5: of it because even though it's been taken over by

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Speaker 5: Chris Balad in the name of Iran, if Israel can

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Speaker 5: sufficiently weaken Chris Balad, there is the rest of Lebanon

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Speaker 5: that can come in and fill the gap. Who is

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Speaker 5: that in Gaza? How do you build that in Gaza?

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Speaker 5: And that's we're talking here about the best case scenario

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Speaker 5: that everyone actually wants that. I hope everyone wants that.

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Speaker 5: I hope it isn't just you know, in the West

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Speaker 5: moralizing and in the Muslim world just hating Jews. I

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Speaker 5: hope it's actually about Gaza. And we can put together

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Speaker 5: some kind of an international coalition that frankly moves in

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Speaker 5: and massively, seriously builds and deradicalizes Gaza, and then there's

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Speaker 5: a real powerful argument for the Israelis getting out as

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Speaker 5: fast as possible. But until there's even that awareness, you're

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Speaker 5: just asking the Israelis to hand Gaza back to Hamas

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Speaker 5: and that's just something that the Israeli public won't allowed

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Speaker 5: to happen, never mind the politicians well in control.

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Speaker 6: I'm about to queue up E three, which we can

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Speaker 6: put up this on the screen and then E four

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Speaker 6: so Bernie Sanders and Ryan will probably have something to

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Speaker 6: say about this as well. Is pushing a block US

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Speaker 6: ARM sales to Israel. There's going to be a vote

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Speaker 6: in the Senate on that today, right right, That's what

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Speaker 6: Bernie is queuing up today. And on that note, I

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Speaker 6: want to turn to this clip of Telsey Gabbard on

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Speaker 6: CBN Christian Broadcast Network talking about some of the ideological,

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Speaker 6: deeper ideological questions that we were just talking about. Here,

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Speaker 6: let's roll this clip.

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Speaker 5: It's E four.

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Speaker 7: You mentioned American taxpayer dollars.

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Speaker 5: Is there a difference between funding Israel and funding Ukraine? Like,

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Speaker 5: how do you see that exactly?

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Speaker 8: I'm just curious.

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Speaker 9: Yes, the radical Islamic extremism is what Israel is on

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Speaker 9: the front lines of every day.

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Speaker 10: There is a very real difference and us and there

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Speaker 10: will always be with every unique challenge that we face

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Speaker 10: and that unique decision that must be made. Using those

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Speaker 10: two examples, are we better off increasing and escalating tensions

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Speaker 10: and waging this proxy war against Russia, of which Ukraine

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Speaker 10: has never had any shot at winning. When you look

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Speaker 10: at what's happening in the war between Israel and Hummas,

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Speaker 10: and it is a war between Israel and Hummas, a

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Speaker 10: radical Islamist terrorist group. This is just the latest front

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Speaker 10: of this war that's been waged for a very long

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Speaker 10: time between these radical ismist terrorist groups that have been

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Speaker 10: waging it militarily and ideologically. This is in our best interests,

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Speaker 10: as well as all freedom loving countries and civilization to

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Speaker 10: take on what is the greatest short and long term

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Speaker 10: threat to freedom. He's afraid of being called an islamophobe,

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Speaker 10: and it's the same reason why he is not taking

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Speaker 10: seriously the need to defeat Hamas.

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Speaker 6: To Gabbard obviously recently nominated to be Donald Trump's Director

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Speaker 6: of National Intelligence, and the host asked her, Joe Biden

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Speaker 6: just recently pausing weaponshipments to Israel, how do you see

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Speaker 6: that he's on the side of Hamas at this point?

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Speaker 6: And obviously this comes we're talking about this clip as

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Speaker 6: Bernie Sanders is pushing to pushing two block US arm

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Speaker 6: sales to Israel, And so I guess my question is,

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Speaker 6: with this perspective that there's a deep ideological route to

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Speaker 6: what we see in Gosen sort of Hamas filling this

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Speaker 6: leadership vacuum, infrastructure vacuum over and over again. Is the

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Speaker 6: response to that further military action if I mean, I

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Speaker 6: understand obviously why that's an option, but is that ultimately

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Speaker 6: is it worth? Is it continuously justified? If the root

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Speaker 6: problem is a deep ideological is a deep ideological commitment

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Speaker 6: conviction that is worsened by the military action? In some ways,

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Speaker 6: that's obviously arguable, but how do you see that sort

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Speaker 6: of dynamic between one and the other.

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Speaker 5: Look for the last one hundred and fifty years, there's

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Speaker 5: been a debate within Islam, and it's a big and

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Speaker 5: profound and powerful debate that's shaped the Muslim world today,

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Speaker 5: certainly the Sonny Arab world in which we are embedded.

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Speaker 5: And it's a debate about Muslim weakness, the sources of

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Speaker 5: Muslim weakness, and what we do about Muslim weakness. And

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Speaker 5: out of that debate grows some pietistic peaceful movements and

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Speaker 5: also jihadi movements, and out of that debate you get

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Speaker 5: the kind of ideological movements of Ramas. You also get

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Speaker 5: in the Shia sphere, this Iranian regime, this ideology that

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Speaker 5: says that Islam has been weak for a long time,

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Speaker 5: and this is something that really becomes a problem Muslim

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Speaker 5: theologians talk about because of Western imperially some of the

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Speaker 5: nineteenth century. But this ideology then says, well, if Islam

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Speaker 5: is to wake up, the first obstacle it has to

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Speaker 5: overcome in order to show that it is returning into

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Speaker 5: history as a powerful agent in history and therefore redeeming

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Speaker 5: Islam and therefore redeeming ultimately the world. Is overcoming the Jews,

435
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 5: is overcoming the smallest, weakest thing that ever pushed Islam back,

436
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,479
Speaker 5: the Iranian regime. This is my message to Bernie Sanders.

437
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 5: Doesn't fit in a little quip, you know, it doesn't

438
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,880
Speaker 5: fit in a sound bite. We don't need American missiles

439
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 5: in Gaza. That's not the kind of war. Gaza is

440
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 5: the American arsenal. The American help is about Iran. And

441
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 5: if Bernie Sanders can't explain to us why Iran wants

442
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,639
Speaker 5: to destroy Israel in the first place, why does Iran

443
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 5: care about Israel? Why is Iran spending a double digit

444
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 5: percentage of its GDP so far, with sanctions, with wars,

445
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 5: with the billions it doesn't have invested in all these proxies,

446
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 5: especially Chrisbella the Jewel in its crown. Why is it

447
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 5: trying to destroy Israel? It has no border with Israel,

448
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 5: has no interest in it. And the answer is it

449
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 5: takes these ideas of Islamic restorationism and it's the Jews

450
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 5: being the first thing Islam has to overcome absolutely seriously.

451
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 5: And if we don't take it seriously, we're gonna be

452
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 5: surprised when they carry out in October seven. By the way,

453
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 5: we know. We know because Chris Blah has announced and

454
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 5: Ramas has talked about that Risbulah was planning in October

455
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 5: seven that was much larger, and are very angry at

456
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 5: Sinoir for ruining the surprise, so to speak. So we

457
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 5: face enemies who will come at us no matter what.

458
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 5: And if America chooses to then disarm us, the war

459
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 5: is still gonna come. It's just gonna be worse because

460
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 5: we're not gonna have precise weapons. We're gonna have blunt weapons.

461
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 5: We can build ourselves. Well, that's my message there. You

462
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 5: have to have that understanding of what the enemy actually

463
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 5: wants when you're planning about when you're planning that to

464
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 5: face them down, to have that conflict.

465
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 4: I feel like the clash of civilizations stuff though, is

466
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 4: actually a cover for not talking about the conflict in

467
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 4: it was simpler just you know, territory or nationalistic terms.

468
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 4: You can go back to the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

469
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 4: But it's much simpler to explain the rise of Hamas

470
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,359
Speaker 4: by pointing to you know, a couple you know acute things, uh.

471
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: One being you know, the inability.

472
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 4: Of Arafat who had you know, who had who recognized

473
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 4: Israel and you know, like recognize the existence of the

474
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 4: state of Israel and was engaged in you know, long negotiations,

475
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: and Hamas argued, you're being played by Israel here. Israel

476
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: does not have, through the Oslo Cords or any other way,

477
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 4: any any serious commitment to actually reaching a two state solution.

478
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 4: And what they would point to is that immediately after

479
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 4: Ozlo's signed, you more settlements are built, more settlements are built, more,

480
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 4: more settlements are built.

481
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: Uh.

482
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 4: You have uh, you know, elements of the uh not

483
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 4: including that Yah himself saying that the existence of Hamas's

484
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 4: is extremely useful to the position of blocking a two

485
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 4: state solution. And so I don't think you need the

486
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 4: ideological stuff and the Ottoman Empire talk when you can

487
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 4: actually say, like, no, the idea here was that there's

488
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: a faction within the Israeli political system that opposed the

489
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 4: creation of a Palestinian state and had the power to

490
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 4: put obstacles in the way of the creation of that state,

491
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 4: and is now since the election, talking about simply annexing

492
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 4: the West Bank, you fully, and even talking further about

493
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 4: you know, southern Lebanon being northern Israel, and on and on.

494
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 4: But so can't you talk, can't you consider this in

495
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: a much more kind of a simple way than needing

496
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 4: to go back to the clash of civilization stuff.

497
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 5: Exclusive I didn't talk about class of civilizations. I talked

498
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 5: about the single biggest theological discourse in the Muslim world

499
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 5: in the last century and a half. I can give

500
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 5: you specific names and specific theologians, and these organizations they

501
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 5: founded that produced this and the politics they're born from.

502
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 5: Haramas was founded in nineteen eighty seven. Hamas doesn't go

503
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 5: back a century and a half, but it's born on

504
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 5: the ideas of the Muslim brotherhood, and it talks that way.

505
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 5: If you go to its mosques, you will hear those speeches.

506
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 5: That's the first thing. The second thing is, I'll tell

507
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 5: you why what you call class of clash of civilizations,

508
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 5: which is it's such a Western discourse. That's not how

509
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 5: Muslims think of it. It's not how Jews think of it.

510
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 5: It's not how Middle Easterners think of it. But the

511
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 5: reason that these religious ideas matter is that I'll give

512
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 5: you an example. You were talking about the Palestinian argument,

513
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 5: and it's not an argument made by Hamas. It's an

514
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 5: argument made by Palestinian diaspora elites who are trying to

515
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 5: explain away everything that Hamas has done for thirty years

516
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 5: to Westerners. But the argument that Israel never intended for

517
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 5: Oslo to ever actually work out for the Palestinians. And

518
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 5: Robbin is assassinated in nineteen ninety five by an Israeli

519
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 5: Jew opposed to the peace process, and that actually puts

520
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 5: the left raised. The left was about to lose that

521
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 5: election because people were really afraid that Yes, Sarah Fat,

522
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 5: this arch terrorist to it hijacked airplanes and launched terror

523
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 5: attacks that massacred kids was now going to take over

524
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 5: the West Bank, and Robbin's assassination increased the Left's standing

525
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 5: in the polls, and they were set to win the

526
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 5: next election. And the next election because the assassination comes

527
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 5: in ninety six and Ramas launches a series of suicide

528
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 5: bombings in Jerusalem in the week leading up to the

529
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 5: election that tilt the election by the narrowest margin in

530
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 5: the history of an Israeli election. I think thirty thousand

531
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 5: votes to Nitagnelle. That's Nataiell's first victory is a function

532
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 5: of Rama's terror attacks. Barak comes back, the Labor Party

533
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 5: comes back. He's already talking about a Palestinian in state.

534
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 5: He's a Camp David with Bill Clinton. They're negotiating shared

535
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 5: sovereignty on the Temple Mount. There's a ninety five percent

536
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 5: of the West Bank kind of Palestinian state. And that's

537
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 5: when one hundred and forty suicide bombings over the next

538
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 5: three years, the second in de foughta begin and not

539
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 5: only Famas also.

540
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: There's definitely a realmia between the kind of house takes.

541
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 5: I want to suggest to you that the Israelis, the

542
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 5: Israelis are not angels in this story. There are different camps.

543
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 5: They fight constantly, and by the way, we don't have

544
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 5: the kind of winner takes all election system that you have.

545
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 5: You're going to be a republican for four years. Everything

546
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 5: is going to be a republican unless Congress switches halfway through.

547
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 5: In Israel, every government in the history of Israel, there's

548
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 5: never been a majority party, has been a coalition, and

549
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 5: therefore the Israeli government always works across purposes because different

550
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 5: ideological groups are by the way, the Italian government, we're

551
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 5: seeing this now if you're following Italian politics, the Polish government,

552
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 5: and we re see this in these kinds of parliamentary systems.

553
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 5: We had a government, the last government that it's Agnao

554
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 5: ousted actually had the left wing minister of housing and

555
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 5: a excuse me, a right wing minister of housing and

556
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 5: a left wing minister of transportation, which means that the

557
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: right wing minister of housing was encouraging the building of

558
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 5: more settlement homes and the left wing minister of transportation

559
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: was refusing to pave roads to those settlement homes. The

560
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 5: Israeli government is multiple forces operating in different directions. If

561
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 5: the argument is if there's an Israeli right winger in

562
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 5: the room. Then the israel doesn't mean it. Then you're

563
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 5: missing the fact that there was a culture war, the

564
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 5: defining political civil war of the nineties and even after

565
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: the nineties. The withdrawal from Gaza was also part of

566
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 5: this in two thousand and five, was about getting out

567
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 5: and creating space to the Palestinians and separating and not

568
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 5: having an occupation anymore. And it failed miserably in rivers

569
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 5: of blood, and it failed miserably in rivers of blood

570
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 5: because of these religious ideas on the other side. So

571
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 5: at some point you're going to have to deal with

572
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 5: these religious ideas on the other side. On October seven, again,

573
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 5: let's imagine the Israelis are the worst people in the world.

574
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 5: On October seven, Ramas didn't just massacre Israelis. It had

575
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 5: built these tunnels for seven teen years, and it had

576
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 5: built them for one tactical purpose, so that anyone coming

577
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 5: for Ramas has to cut through cities to do so.

578
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 5: October seven was two atrocities, not one. And the larger

579
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 5: one wasn't committed against Israel, was committed against Gonza, and

580
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 5: it was Ramas's literal strategy. And so if you don't

581
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 5: address why is Ramas willing to destroy Ganza, it's willing

582
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 5: to destroy Gaza because it thinks that's so much more

583
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 5: is at stake the redemption of Islam. Well, if you

584
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 5: don't address that, if you don't deal with that, you're

585
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 5: not going to fix the problem. You're not going to

586
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 5: end the war.

587
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 4: Israeli commentators often say that the Western progressives don't take

588
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 4: into account Palestinian agency. It's not it, they don't give

589
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 4: the Palestinians enough agency and judge them accordingly.

590
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: But what about Israeli government agency?

591
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 4: It's true that Hamas set up an enormous number of

592
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: a gigantic tunnel network and that destroying the entire tunnel

593
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 4: network or could require destroying all of Gaza and tens

594
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 4: of thousands or hundreds of thousands of civilians along with it.

595
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 4: What about Israeli agency? They didn't have to do that, right.

596
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're gonna you're asking me or is this Israeli

597
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 5: government or the last eight Israeli governments massively at fault

598
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 5: for thinking that there was that you could that you

599
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 5: could hand money over to Ramas watch it build those

600
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 5: tunnel systems. We reported on those tunnel systems for ten

601
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 5: years that that that was something you could just turn

602
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 5: a blind eye to. Insider. Yeah, the Israeli crime other

603
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 5: than you know, if you're running a country and you

604
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 5: make a terrible strategic mistake at that scale. As I

605
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 5: was waiting to come on, I heard the commentary about

606
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 5: the Iraq war and Trump talking about the that's a

607
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 5: when you lead a country and you make a mistake

608
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 5: at that scale, Let's imagine it's in good faith. Let's

609
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 5: imagine you believed what you were saying. You you own it.

610
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 5: You own that mistake. And this this leadership owns that mistake,

611
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 5: and that most Israelis will tell you to the face,

612
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 5: and and and most Israeli still wanted gone. And I

613
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 5: don't have it doesn't cost me anything to give that

614
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 5: to you. I scream it in Hebrew. But the fundamental

615
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 5: mistake they made was not believe in Ramas. And the

616
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 5: great tragedy for Gaza is that the Israelis absolutely believe

617
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 5: Ramas now. And so when Tramaz says we're going to

618
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 5: destroy all of you and there'll be more October seventh,

619
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 5: which it still says, the Israelis believe it. And what

620
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 5: that is a disaster for Gaza and has to end

621
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 5: or Gaza can't be rebuilt.

622
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 4: Well, one question I've been really curious of from me

623
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 4: is really a perspective, and I know you've got to

624
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 4: run pretty soon.

625
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: We can put up E six here. This is just

626
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: one example.

627
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: A reporter who works for who does work for us

628
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 4: and some other publications last night, you know, posted on

629
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 4: Twitter just what was becoming his nightly routine. So he's

630
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: saying that, like in an apartment right next to him. Yeah,

631
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 4: in Gaza and day there's a there's a baby that

632
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 4: the mother he hears. He hears the mother saying of

633
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 4: the baby, I'm going to get your food. I'm going

634
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,879
Speaker 4: to get you fed tomorrow, I promise. And but by

635
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 4: the end of the night there's still no food. And

636
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 4: I don't know if you if if people can even

637
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 4: hear this, but what he just took a little recording

638
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 4: of what he hears constantly, and it's it's this. It's

639
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 4: the it's a baby who's just hungry and tired but

640
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 4: can't get fed and can't get can't get the sleep

641
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 4: that that the baby needs. And I'm curious from the

642
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 4: Israeli perspective, how like does any of this. Does any

643
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 4: of this penetrate. We're talking about two million human beings

644
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 4: who are living through some of the most abject torture,

645
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 4: you know, imaginable, and people who have absolutely you know,

646
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 4: nothing to do with October seventh. Is any of this

647
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 4: breaking through at all?

648
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 5: Do Israelis know that the Palestinian civilians are suffering?

649
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: Do they know? And how to? How to they think

650
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: about that, and how do they think about their role?

651
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's a critical question. Many things are true

652
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 5: all at once. There is a very clear knowledge that

653
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 5: there is tremendous civilian suffering, absolutely crystal clear. That's not

654
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,919
Speaker 5: something anybody's confused about. There is an absolute belief among

655
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 5: Israelis that the world's moral emotions about this are not

656
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 5: fake so much as fundamentally driven by bigotry against us.

657
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 5: And the reason we think that is that it's worse

658
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 5: than Sudan right at this minute, and none of you

659
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 5: know and none of you care. And that's something you

660
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 5: hear from a majority of Israeli Jews, certainly, and also

661
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 5: I think quite a few Israeli Arabs, well, probably not

662
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,759
Speaker 5: a majority. There's a sense that some of the discourse

663
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 5: around Palestinian suffering has simply been untrue. There's been too

664
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 5: much talk of starvation when there hasn't been actual starvation.

665
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 5: And that doesn't mean they're not suffering disastrously. Families are

666
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 5: literally for thirteen months now, moving between tent encampments in

667
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 5: order to avoid air strikes. No summer camps, there's nothing

668
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 5: for kids to do, there's no schools, there's no This

669
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 5: is suffering at a serious and dramatic scale. But the

670
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 5: invention around it of some kind of systemic system of

671
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 5: atrocities that is purposeful, and it is not true, and

672
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 5: is meant to satisfy and to catalyze a kind of

673
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 5: moral religious feeling that simply has nothing to do with

674
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 5: the reality and has a lot more to do with

675
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 5: Israel than with the suffering of the civilians. Because again,

676
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 5: it's not the what about ist argument, it's the simple

677
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 5: it's the selective outrage argument. You can't only think that

678
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 5: way and only about these things. So, first of all,

679
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 5: they are suffering, they're suffering disastrously. And so I want

680
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 5: to say they're not suffering as much as you think,

681
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 5: but I don't want that to mean they're suffering. At eight.

682
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 5: I'm just arguing they're not suffering at thirteen, which is

683
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 5: just simply not happening. They're not dying on mass. There

684
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 5: isn't mass starvation. There are major problems in some places,

685
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 5: and those problems are a huge problem. I have been

686
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 5: very I need to say that before saying I've been

687
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 5: very critical of the Israeli government. I'd, by the way,

688
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:07,479
Speaker 5: think that there's such easy ways, easy, complicated, difficult, painful ways.

689
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 5: But we could solve a lot of these problems. For example,

690
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 5: if we have to move them out of harm's way,

691
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 5: we can move them into Israeli territory. There's a great

692
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 5: fear in the Arab world that if you push them

693
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 5: out of Gaza, it's the next knock bit, it's the

694
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 5: next displacement. So just push them into the negative and

695
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 5: then what are they arguing that we're moving them into

696
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 5: Israel and not to There are solutions. There are Israeli

697
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 5: Arabs who volunteered for the war effort. After October seven,

698
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 5: Tamas kidnapped and killed fifty Israeli Arabs. A Muslim girl

699
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 5: eighteen years old, Ayisha, who is We still don't know

700
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 5: where she is and what's going on with her. There

701
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 5: was a coming together of Jews and Arabs, and Arab

702
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 5: Israelis are Palestinian. They also their identity is this complicated

703
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 5: intermingling of identities, but they include a layer that is

704
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 5: absolutely Palestinian. And what if they ran some of that,

705
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 5: some of that humanitarian aid on the Israeli SI out

706
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 5: of a border for people displaced, and once you move

707
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 5: them in, you can also check them, you can pull

708
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 5: them out. And there are so many ways to solve it.

709
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 5: This is a government that in many, many ways has

710
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 5: been incompetent. I'll give you just the tiniest example. Soldiers

711
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 5: veterans of the war. After one hundred and fifty days,

712
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 5: they missed a school year, an entire college year. They

713
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 5: just missed because they were off fighting a war. They

714
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 5: come back and discover that they have back debt on

715
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 5: the tuition payments for their dorms and something that government

716
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 5: was supposed to pay for but never did. This is

717
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 5: a government that has proven incompetent for Israeli civil society.

718
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 5: Sixty thousand Israelis were fled the North the bombardments of

719
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 5: Risbela in the North over thirteen months that shattered and

720
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 5: destroyed cities entire like twelve Kibusim and a third of

721
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 5: two cities are literally demolished to the point where they

722
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 5: have to be destroyed before being rebuilt. And this government

723
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 5: hasn't properly followed these people and provided them education for

724
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 5: their kids and social support. We are facing a government

725
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 5: that a lot of what you see in gods, a

726
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 5: lot of the reasons they haven't filled in with. It's

727
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 5: easy solutions, you know, I don't mean to excuse it.

728
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 5: This doesn't excuse it. It's just a different kind of

729
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 5: a crime is incompetence. It's just incapacity. So there are

730
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 5: so many ways to deal with this better that I

731
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 5: desperately wish Israel was dealing with it better. At the

732
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 5: same time, I share the general Israeli view that I

733
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 5: don't entirely trust the world's moral emotions because give us

734
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 5: a better way to fight this war.

735
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 4: I'm sure you saw these comments from the Jordanian foreign

736
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 4: minister where he said, look, create a Palacinian state. Every

737
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 4: single Arab nation will recognize Israel tomorrow and we will

738
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 4: coexist peacefully. Just create a Palasinian state. And so you're saying,

739
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 4: give us a way to fight the war. Differently, it

740
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 4: feels like Israel feels like it's only way to survive

741
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 4: is to fight forever. That it is in a dangerous

742
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 4: neighborhood of people who want it gone, driven.

743
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,240
Speaker 1: By bigotry until the ideologies they.

744
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 4: Want, they want them God, they were driven, driven into

745
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 4: the sea, and so they have to fight forever, despite

746
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 4: despite countries like the UE, Saudi Arabia, Jordans, on and

747
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 4: on saying creative House stating and state we're done with this,

748
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 4: we want to move on with this, we will recognize Israel.

749
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 4: But why why this clinging to the belief that that

750
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 4: war is the only path forward?

751
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: And and can it? Can war sustainable?

752
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 4: Endless war really be the basis for a safe and

753
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 4: secure livelihood in a country that wants to be kind

754
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: of western, you know, want you want to have cafes

755
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 4: and startups and clubs, and doing that under a constant

756
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 4: war feels kind of unsustainable.

757
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 5: We I feel like we're on the different sides of

758
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 5: some of these divides and that's producing very very good questions.

759
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 5: So thank you for that really fundamental question. I don't

760
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 5: mean that sarcastically, I mean it absolutely seriously. The simple

761
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 5: point on the West Bank, the Israeli political left hasn't

762
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 5: won an election since the Second Intifada, since one hundred

763
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 5: and forty suicide bombings ended the Oslo piece process, and

764
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 5: it hasn't really been able to tell Israeli's a new story.

765
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 5: And what you're asking, what the Jordanian Foreign Minister wishes,

766
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 5: was that the Israeli public public debate had another story.

767
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 5: The Israelis currently believe that if we pull out of

768
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 5: the West Bank, it'll go the way Gaza went before.

769
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 5: Five years before pulling out of Gaza, we pulled out

770
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 5: of South Lebanon after eighteen years. That was basically our Afghanistan.

771
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 5: We moved in to take care of terrorists, and then

772
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 5: we ended up getting stuck for eighteen years and bogged

773
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 5: down and pulled out badly, and the bad guys took

774
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 5: over when we left. That has turned into a disaster

775
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 5: for us. Every single unilateral withdrawal turned into a disaster.

776
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 5: And the attempt at a multilateral or bilateral piece ended

777
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 5: in the Second Intifada with one hundred and forty suicide bombings.

778
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 5: So the Israeli public and I mean voting Israeli public

779
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 5: that to this day wants a Palestinian state, genuinely believes

780
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 5: that if we pull out of the West Bank for

781
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 5: a Palestinian state, it'll end disastrously in rivers of blood

782
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 5: and we're going to have to retake it. The West

783
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 5: Bank is the highlands that overlook all of our major cities.

784
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 5: The West Bank shrinks us down to nine miles wide

785
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 5: in the middle. You know, people hear about this place

786
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 5: so much. I don't know if they understand just how

787
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 5: tiny this little land in which Israelis and Palestinians live

788
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 5: actually is. And so it feels existential the question of

789
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 5: pulling out of the West Bank, and again to left

790
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: wingers who want a Palestinian state, the right wingers there's

791
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 5: even more so. And so the question of just found

792
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 5: a Palestinian state in Godz of sure, why not? Is easy.

793
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 5: If there wasn't a Hamance there, it would have happened,

794
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,439
Speaker 5: and it would never have not happened. In the West Bank,

795
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 5: it's a whole different question. I still think a two

796
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 5: state pieces possible. Ironically, if we do something that the

797
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 5: Jordanian Foreign minister mortally opposes and absolutely hates, which is

798
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 5: a kind of confederation between that state of Palestine and Jordan.

799
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 5: What if you know, three of the West Bank. The

800
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 5: Israelis can't be in the valley nine miles wide, so

801
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 5: we push in a quarter of the West Bank. That's

802
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 5: roughly what's going on in the Golan Heights. Israel doesn't

803
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 5: control the Golan, it controls about a third of the Golan.

804
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 5: To push back in sixty seven, the Syrian artillery out

805
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 5: of range of the towns in the valley that they

806
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 5: were shelling freely throughout the fifties and sixties. So what

807
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 5: if the Israelis push up the mountain range they actually

808
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 5: hold the high ground with the Palestinian state, but then

809
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 5: to three quarters of the West Bank plus Gaza, all

810
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 5: within a Jordanian confederation that leaves the Palestinian Ordanian border

811
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 5: wide open. They have an international border that Jordanians are

812
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 5: now the custodians of the Holy Site in Jerusalem, that

813
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 5: they actually care about Alexa. Very little would have to change.

814
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 5: The Palestine wouldn't be this tiny, little fractured state surrounded

815
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 5: on all sides by this massively powerful Israel. As soon

816
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 5: as you start seriously thinking about solutions, as soon as

817
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 5: you solve the ideology problem that you don't want to

818
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 5: deal with. And I understand why you don't want to

819
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 5: deal with it does sound like an Israeli escape patch.

820
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 5: Forgets that for a second, the Israeli scape patch, it

821
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 5: might actually be the opp stickle to everything you might

822
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 5: be able to yourself become Prime Minister of Israel. This

823
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 5: will still stand in your way, and it will stand

824
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 5: in your way. If the Israelis are evil, this still

825
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 5: stands in the way. And so if we can solve

826
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 5: the fundamental ideological problem, it's unbelievably easy to imagine actual

827
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 5: political solutions on the ground that solve everybody's security problems,

828
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 5: policy problems. We spent thirty years trying to finiggle our

829
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 5: trying to sort of wind our way through the technicalities

830
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 5: of the policy problems, because that's how diplomats think. And

831
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 5: we never figured out reconciliation, and we never figured out

832
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 5: narratives that actually allow the other side to come in.

833
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 5: You want to know the big problem of the Israeli

834
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 5: Palestinian conflict, There are wonderful polls of Israelis and Palestinians

835
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 5: were some of the best poll people in the world.

836
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 5: And there was a poll about six weeks ago in

837
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 5: which that pulled both Israelis and Palestinians with an Israeli

838
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 5: firm and a Palestinian firm, and they asked the same question,

839
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 5: do you think the other side wants to exterminate us?

840
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 5: And both sides responded ninety percent yes. I mean literally

841
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 5: one side was eighty nine, the other side was ninety

842
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 5: to both sides think the other side simply wants to

843
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 5: destroy them. That's the problem, and that's what makes solutions impossible.

844
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 5: First has to come the reconciliation. Then the political solutions

845
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 5: are easy, as for fighting forever. Look, we're speaking English.

846
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 5: Every conversation in English about Israel is mediated through this

847
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 5: sense that Jews are kind of like American Jews. We're

848
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 5: not American Jews. I was to high school in Wisconsin.

849
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 5: I apologize for the accent I was born.

850
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 6: Hey, hey, we can bond over that.

851
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:38,360
Speaker 5: Finally, Glendae, Wisconsin. Oh nice. We're not American Jews. We

852
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 5: are not people who have discovered over the last one

853
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 5: hundred and twenty years the promise of liberalism coming true.

854
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 5: We're the other half of the Jews. Were the actual

855
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 5: survivors of the Holocaust, were the actual survivors of thirteen

856
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,959
Speaker 5: hundred programs. We are the millions, we are the quarter

857
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 5: million Jews stuck in DP camps three years after liberation.

858
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 5: America liberated Daja and buch Involved in nineteen forty five.

859
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 5: There's still Jews living there that nobody will take in

860
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 5: anywhere on Earth, including the United States in nineteen forty eight.

861
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 5: They only start emptying out in forty eight, in May

862
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 5: nineteen forty eight, and they are those dps are a

863
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 5: quarter of the IDF in the forty eight war. We're

864
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 5: the Jews who had nowhere else to go in the world.

865
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 5: And we are the Jews or whom the experience of

866
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 5: living on our sword. Your question to me is can

867
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 5: you fight forever? The UAE wants to not fight, that's wonderful.

868
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 5: By the way, We've never fought with the UA, There's

869
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 5: never been a war. The saudis wonderful. I'm a big

870
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 5: fan of peace and normalization with everybody, but that they

871
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 5: want it, and therefore it's possible Iran wants us destroyed.

872
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 5: We are the Jews who came out of a history

873
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 5: of the twentieth century in which the moment we stopped

874
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 5: dying was when we could fight for ourselves. To the

875
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 5: Israeli experience, everybody's living grandparents come from Iraq and Tunisia

876
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 5: and Poland and Germany and Yemen. We are the Jews

877
00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 5: or whom the privilege of fighting for ourselves, of being

878
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 5: able to fight for ourselves, is what redemption feels like.

879
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 5: And so it's a great question from a Western perspective,

880
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 5: can't we end the war? That's not an option open

881
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 5: to us. No Jew can live in Iraq, no Jew

882
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 5: can live in Yemen. We are surrounded by societies with

883
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 5: an ideological commitment to our destruction. I wish we weren't,

884
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 5: but if they say it out loud, then if it

885
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 5: affects their policy. And if Yemen is a war with

886
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 5: Israel really because of Palestinian rights, everything you know about

887
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 5: the Huthis and the terrible civil war Yemen and the

888
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 5: eighty five thousand children.

889
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 4: Reaches sea fire and gods, and see if the Houthis

890
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 4: lift the blockade, right, But.

891
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 5: It's about saving Ramas, it's not about Palestinian rights. It's

892
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 5: about the ultimate destruction of Israel. And they'll be there

893
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 5: at Ramas society of the next war too, And so

894
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 5: we have to We are willing to fight because we

895
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 5: don't have another option. If the other side gives us

896
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 5: another option, I promise you this incompetent government being what

897
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 5: it is, and despite what you might hear, will take

898
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 5: that other option.

899
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 4: Well, I do think that was clarifying, and I appreciate

900
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 4: you coming on. How you read the girls prominent Israeli

901
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 4: journalists over at the Times of Israel Love to have

902
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 4: love to have you back. We didn't get to get

903
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 4: into the kind of politics of net Yahoo and Jinvette

904
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 4: and all that that's going. That's fascinating and kind of

905
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,280
Speaker 4: broiling Israel.

906
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 5: Hope you like what I have to say about that

907
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 5: a lot more. I promise.

908
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: We'll get you back after Thanksgiving.

909
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 6: Would be a good friend.

910
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: Excellent, Thanks so much, Thank you, Thank.

911
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 6: You, Ryan. I'm really excited about this monologue that you've written.

912
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 5: What have you got for us?

913
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: All Right?

914
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: So, yesterday Crystal talked about the way that revulsion at

915
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 4: the ongoing slaughter and Gossam may have played a role

916
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 4: in shaping how and whether people voted for Kamala Harris.

917
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 4: As she described it, for many people, it is not

918
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 4: exactly a straight line from I oppose this genocide to

919
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,439
Speaker 4: I'm not voting for Kamala, but I think she's right

920
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 4: and saying that it effectively colors the way you see

921
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 4: the other arguments made on Kamala's behalf through a different prism.

922
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 4: You need the more high ground if you're going to

923
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 4: run a campaign based around democracy and morality, and it's

924
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 4: reasonable for people to conclude that killing tens of thousands

925
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 4: of women and children means you've seeded a.

926
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: Bit of that moral high ground.

927
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,319
Speaker 4: I think her point is a correct one, and you

928
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 4: can actually take it even further, which I do in

929
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 4: a new piece over at drop site News. I'll put

930
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 4: a link in the description, and here's a reminder to

931
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 4: sign up for our newsletter at drop siteenews dot com.

932
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 4: Now Inner Monologu, which I'll also link down to the description.

933
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 4: Crystal accurately noted that very few voters say they made

934
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 4: their decisions based on foreign policy, something like four percent

935
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 4: or so. But to many voters, the time, energy, and

936
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 4: money that politicians spend on foreign wars stands in as

937
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 4: a proxy for their lack of concern for people here

938
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 4: at home. At the same time, the four years of

939
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 4: the Biden administration saw a disconcerting outbreak of violence around

940
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 4: the world. Trump himself is a mercurial and unpredictable figure,

941
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 4: whereas Biden is even keeled, at least in public. Yet,

942
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 4: Biden's four years were a bumpy ride of chaos, fueled

943
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 4: significantly by the wars in Ukraine in the Middle East.

944
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,720
Speaker 4: Sharing the campaign stage down the stretch with Liz Cheney

945
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 4: was a signal to voters that Democrats there was a

946
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 4: signal to voters that Democrats felt the cost of those

947
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 4: wars was worth it, and that would get more of

948
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 4: the same in a Harris administration. In the post mortem,

949
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,800
Speaker 4: so far, the Democratic Party's embrace of a more quote

950
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 4: muscular foreign policy, as they like to call it, has

951
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 4: almost entirely escaped notice, but it didn't escape the eye

952
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 4: of voters. In mid October, as Kamala Harris began to

953
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 4: do interviews with friendly audiences, she visited the breakfast studio

954
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 4: of radio host Charlemagne the God, where she took questions

955
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 4: from callers. The first to come through was one of

956
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 4: those questions that is often top of mind for voters,

957
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 4: but dismissed in Washington as a naive misunderstanding of how

958
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 4: the world truly works.

959
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 1: Go to the talkback feature.

960
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 8: My question for Kamala is why are we? And I

961
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 8: say we because my past dollars is sending the money.

962
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 8: Why are we sending money to other countries when we

963
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 8: desperately need it in our own country for homeless housing resources,

964
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 8: for whatever. That is my determining factor if I vote

965
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 8: for Commalo or not.

966
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons the America for US rhetoric

967
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: resonates because nobody in America would coplain about where money

968
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: was going if American citizens every day needs were being met.

969
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: So what do you say to that we can do

970
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 1: it all?

971
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 5: And we do so.

972
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 8: First of all, I maintained very strongly America should never

973
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 8: pull ourselves away from our responsibility as a world leader.

974
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 4: So interestingly, this was all a callback to the debate

975
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 4: in Washington the last time a Democratic president had pushed

976
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 4: through a sweeping new social spending agenda Lbj's Great Society,

977
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 4: but coupled it with ramped up spending. On the Vietnam

978
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 4: War press conference in the summer of nineteen sixty five,

979
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 4: one reporter told President Lyndon Johnson the day after a

980
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 4: bombing of North Vietnam. Quote, mister President, from what you

981
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 4: have outlined as your program for now, it would seem

982
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 4: that you feel that we can have guns and butter

983
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 4: for the foreseeable future. Do you have any idea right

984
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 4: now though, that down the road a piece of the

985
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 4: American people may have to face the problem of guns

986
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 4: or butter. LBJ said that the American people would be

987
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 4: willing to bear the burden. He said, quote, I have

988
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 4: not the slightest doubt, but whenever it is necessary to face,

989
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 4: but whatever it is necessary to face, the American people

990
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 4: will face.

991
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:40,320
Speaker 1: He responded.

992
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 4: Now he was wrong, of course, and the runaway inflation

993
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 4: produced by the war spending broke the back of the

994
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 4: New Deal coalition, shattering organized labor and ushering in neoliberalism

995
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 4: and the Reagan Revolution. But according to Harris, not only

996
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 4: could the American people have both guns and.

997
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: Butter, they already had it.

998
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 4: It's good Democrats, as they hunt for the culprit that

999
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 4: cost them the election, are getting some of it right.

1000
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 4: Dramatically expanding the social safety net at the beginning of

1001
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 4: Biden's term, letting people know that a better world actually

1002
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 4: is possible, and then letting it all lapse as prices

1003
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 4: stayed high turned out to be a political handicap. Then,

1004
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 4: instead of attacking the price hikes as the rotten fruit

1005
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 4: of greedy CEOs with too much economic and political power.

1006
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 4: The White House shot down the entire notion of greedflation,

1007
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 4: which has since confirmed as a driving factor in those

1008
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 4: price increases, and instead they outsourced the fight against inflation

1009
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 4: to a Republican FED chair who jacked up rates and

1010
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 4: with it the cost of mortgages and rent. Also, even

1011
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,400
Speaker 4: James Carville says that maybe Bernie Sanders had a point.

1012
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,320
Speaker 11: I think sir Sanders have some point here, and that

1013
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,760
Speaker 11: if there were things we could have run on harder

1014
00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 11: that have effected the minimum wage, it passes everywhere seventy percent.

1015
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 11: I mean, I know that President Biden with Foden harrishers,

1016
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:05,760
Speaker 11: but we didn't put it front and center.

1017
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 4: Democrats are also blaming wokeness, whether it's trans girls playing girls' sports,

1018
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 4: or the word latin X, or generally the rise of

1019
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 4: a more dogmatic approach to identity politics that became popular

1020
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 4: on the left over the past decade. Now, I don't think,

1021
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 4: I don't think they're actually wrong to examine that dogmatism.

1022
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 4: And I wrote a widely read piece in twenty twenty

1023
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 4: two on how the phenomenon was destroying progressive institutions while

1024
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 4: a culture of fear and silence reigned, but it misses

1025
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 4: a key factor in order to fend off the rise

1026
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 4: of economic populism in the form of Bernie Sanders. In

1027
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, it was those same party leaders themselves who

1028
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 4: turned to identity politics, portraying themselves as the true champions

1029
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 4: of progressive values and deriding Sanders as a single issue candidate,

1030
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 4: that issue being the economy. Here's Hillary Clinton going after

1031
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 4: Bernie Sanders.

1032
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 8: Everything is about an economica here, Yeah, right, If.

1033
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 10: We broke up the big banks tomorrow and I.

1034
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: Will, if the systemic I will.

1035
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 5: Would that end racism?

1036
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 6: With that, end sexism, with that, end discrimination against the

1037
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 6: LGBT community.

1038
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 4: Now, suffice to say, we did not break up the

1039
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 4: big banks, and we did not end racism. Now my

1040
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 4: book The Squad goes over this chapter in painful details,

1041
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 4: so I won't blabor it here. But now that Democrats

1042
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 4: have lost again, it's the very same identity politics they

1043
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 4: are blaming.

1044
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 1: It's an impressive two step.

1045
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 4: In twenty sixteen, cynical wokeness was wielded to fend off

1046
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 4: a challenge to corporate power.

1047
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: Now wokeness is being.

1048
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 4: Thrown overboard to save the Democratic Party elite from a

1049
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 4: deeper critique of their failure.

1050
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: But there's a more fundamental issue.

1051
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 4: Democrats are ignoring, the one brought up by the first

1052
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 4: caller to Charlemagne by continuing to think of American foreign

1053
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 4: policy an American domestic policy as distinct the purview of

1054
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 4: experts in Washington, and the latter the concern of regular people,

1055
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 4: rather than thinking of those things intention Democrats are missing

1056
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 4: the way that their shift into a more war happy

1057
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 4: party is alienating them from voters and fueling the perception

1058
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 4: that they have no intention of addressing people's needs. It's

1059
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 4: apparently easy to forget that the working class drift away

1060
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 4: from Democrats that was underway in the nineteen eighties and

1061
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 4: nineteen nineties was reversed in two thousand and eight by

1062
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 4: Barack Obama, who ran as an anti war candidate against

1063
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 4: a party shredded by its spearheading of the disastrous invasion

1064
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 4: of Iraq. Eight years later, Trump bested Bush's brother and

1065
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,640
Speaker 4: every other Republican contender this way.

1066
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 7: On Monday, George W. Bush will campaign in South Carolina

1067
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,800
Speaker 7: for his brother. As you said tonight, and you've often said,

1068
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 7: the Iraq War and your opposition to it was a

1069
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 7: sign of your good judgment. In two thousand and eight,

1070
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 7: in an interview with Wolf Flitzer, talking about President George W.

1071
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 7: Bush's conduct for the war, you said you were surprised

1072
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 7: that Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi didn't try to impeach him.

1073
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 7: You said quote which personally I think would have been

1074
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 7: a wonderful thing, A close quote. When you were asked

1075
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 7: what you meant by that, you said, for the war.

1076
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 7: For the war, he lied. He got us into the

1077
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,479
Speaker 7: war with lies. Do you still believe President Bush should

1078
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 7: be I should have been in peace.

1079
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 9: I have to say, as a businessman, I get along

1080
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 9: with everybody. I have business all over the world. I

1081
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 9: know so many of the people in the audience. And

1082
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 9: by the way, I'm a self funder. I don't have

1083
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 9: I have my wife and I have my son. That's

1084
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 9: all I have. I don't have girls. So let me

1085
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 9: just tell you I get along with everybody, which is

1086
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 9: my obligation to my company, to myself.

1087
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 5: Et cetera.

1088
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:46,000
Speaker 9: Obviously, the war in Iraq was a big fat mistake,

1089
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 9: all right now, you can take it anyway you want,

1090
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 9: and it took it took Jeb Bush. If you remember,

1091
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 9: at the beginning of his announcement. When he announced the

1092
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 9: president took him five days. He went back, it was

1093
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 9: a mistake. It wasn't a mistake. It took him five

1094
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 9: days before his people told him what to say, and

1095
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 9: he ultimately said it was a mistake. The war in Iraq,

1096
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 9: we spent two trillion dollars, thousands of lives. We don't

1097
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 9: even have it. Iran is taking over Iraq with the

1098
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 9: second largest oil reserves in the world. Obviously it was

1099
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 9: a mistake. So George Bush made a mistake. We can

1100
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 9: make mistakes, but that one was a beauty.

1101
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 4: And he also beat Hillary Clinton by portraying himself in

1102
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,840
Speaker 4: the same way as having opposed Bush's war.

1103
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: Mister Trump, you with a lot of these are judgment questions.

1104
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 9: You had supported the war in Iraq before the invasion.

1105
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 9: What makes yourse I did not support the war in Iraq?

1106
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 9: Ten That is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her.

1107
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 4: Now in liberals the America, first they read it a

1108
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 4: xenophobic and anti immigrant, but Trump's supporters scanned it as

1109
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 4: a promise not to waste money on wars and nation

1110
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 4: building while our own country crumbles. But the critique in

1111
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 4: that slogan and expressed by that Charlemagne caller makes an

1112
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 4: emotional link between issue that are treated as disparate and

1113
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 4: distinct by political operatives. The jarring price swings at the

1114
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 4: grocery store and at the pump, combined with the out

1115
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,960
Speaker 4: of control wars and the surge of migrants at the border,

1116
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 4: combined to produce a visceral sense that our leaders in

1117
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 4: Washington were sacrificing the needs of regular people here in

1118
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 4: the United States. People's sense that the economy was being

1119
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 4: handled poorly by Biden was colored by the chaos overseas,

1120
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 4: and his rapt attention to Ukraine and Israel left little

1121
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: room for confidence that he cared what was going on

1122
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 4: back here. By pretending that the US could do it all,

1123
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 4: but then only delivering on the foreign wars, democrats set

1124
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 4: up ordinary people to view it as a zero sum competition.

1125
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 4: When Harris says, quote, we can do it all, and

1126
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 4: we do, she is offering a version of conventional wisdom

1127
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,919
Speaker 4: in Washington, which loves to point out whenever people raise

1128
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 4: complaints like this, that wars are paid for out of

1129
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 4: different accounts than schools, or that much of what we're

1130
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 4: sending to Ukraine is in the form of weapons, not cash,

1131
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 4: which means we then get to make new weapons and

1132
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 4: every but he gets even richer. But even if that's true,

1133
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 4: most people don't consider themselves inside the we that's benefiting

1134
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 4: from all that. We just see money going towards war

1135
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 4: and our bills getting harder to pay. Think about how

1136
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 4: the overseas conflicts and the chaotic economy interacted.

1137
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: With each other over the last four years.

1138
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 6: Now.

1139
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 4: One of Biden's most courageous moves, in my opinion, as president,

1140
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 4: was going with the withdrawal from Afghanistan in the face

1141
01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 4: of fierce military and media opposition. It wound up costing

1142
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 4: him badly. Thirteen US service members were killed amid the retreat,

1143
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 4: and the airwaves were filled with the images of Afghan's

1144
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 4: fatally swarming American cargo planes. It was chaos, and Biden

1145
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 4: never recovered from that. Now, that chaos, which played on repeat.

1146
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,040
Speaker 4: Just as prices were rising and the COVID nineteen pandemic

1147
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 4: was easing, people were tentatively emerging from lockdown and crime surged, which,

1148
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,000
Speaker 4: in many people's minds merged and was merged with and

1149
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 4: was blamed on the George Floyd protests from the year before,

1150
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 4: many of which had turned into riots. Now kids who'd

1151
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 4: spent more than a year out of school never recovered. Then,

1152
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 4: in February twenty twenty two, Russia invaded Ukraine. Biden assiduously

1153
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 4: resisted a negotiated end to the conflict. In June, the

1154
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 4: conservative justice on the Supreme Court undid generations of precedent,

1155
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 4: overturned Roe v.

1156
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: Wade.

1157
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 4: The war in Ukraine raged on. As the body count

1158
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 4: piled up and the US shoveled ever greater sums of

1159
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 4: money into the trenches. Wheat and energy prices fluctuated wildly.

1160
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 4: Prices eventually began rising at a slightly lower rate, but

1161
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,920
Speaker 4: they rose nevertheless, and the response of the Fed to

1162
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 4: continuously raise interest rates and keep them high arguably contributed

1163
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 4: to the problem, raising the price of mortgages and rent.

1164
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 4: The migration serge at the border became too great to ignore.

1165
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 4: That too, had a foreign policy link. US foreign policy

1166
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 4: in general has produced an unstable hemisphere with heavy out

1167
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 4: migration flows to the United States. During his time in office,

1168
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 4: Biden titaned sanctions and penalties on Cuba and Venezuela, and

1169
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 4: intervened to fuel chaos in Haiti. The Three countries combined

1170
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,280
Speaker 4: sent the bulk of migrants at key moments. Then came

1171
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 4: October seventh and the horrifying images it produced. Weeks of

1172
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 4: a relentless and indiscriminate Israeli response turned into months. Bidens

1173
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 4: and his administration took a public posture that the US

1174
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 4: wanted to cease fire, yet the attack only ratcheted up

1175
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 4: as the death count reached shocking numbers, and US weapons

1176
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 4: and financing went.

1177
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: Up with it.

1178
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 4: Biden's stated goal was to contain the conflict, but it

1179
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 4: periodically broke out into regional war. Shipping was effectively halted,

1180
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 4: and in October Netanyahoo, with the aim of defeating Biden,

1181
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 4: launched assaults on Lebanon and Iran, which launched their own

1182
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 4: assaults in retaliation, and the Ukraine War, with its ever

1183
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 4: present threat of nuclear catastrophe grinds on.

1184
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:57,959
Speaker 1: Does that sound like we can do it all?

1185
01:02:59,080 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 11: So?

1186
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,360
Speaker 4: I think if Emily, as you think back over the

1187
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 4: last four years, you can imagine why when confronted with

1188
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 4: Trump versus the status quo, for like, well, what I

1189
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,920
Speaker 4: liked about Trump was that wages were growing up, prices

1190
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:17,000
Speaker 4: were pretty flat, and we weren't We didn't have a

1191
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 4: whole bunch of wars going on. What I didn't like

1192
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 4: about Trump was that he's an unpredictable madman, kind of

1193
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:26,240
Speaker 4: a lunatic personally. But if your alternative is all of

1194
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 4: these wars breaking out around the world and no certainty

1195
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 4: about prices and the economy here at home, immigration and immigration,

1196
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 4: then you're like, you know what, I'll take that in hindsight.

1197
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 4: So I think the good news for Democrats is that

1198
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:45,439
Speaker 4: if they want to make a comeback, just stop doing

1199
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 4: all the wars. That's a big that's a big step

1200
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 4: in the right direction.

1201
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 6: And I mean even just changing like I wouldn't. I

1202
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 6: hope they don't do this because I think it's cynical,

1203
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 6: But it's so telling that they don't even frame the

1204
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:01,120
Speaker 6: wars in a way that it is a pitch to

1205
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 6: the American people outside of Washington and New York. I

1206
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 6: think Joe Rogan recently was replaying this clip of Tucker

1207
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 6: Carlson confronting Mike Pence when Pence was running for president

1208
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 6: in the primary about how he sees all of this

1209
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 6: decay in America and wants to keep sending weapons and

1210
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 6: resources to Ukraine that could be spent on Americans, and

1211
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 6: Pence says almost exactly what you said at the last part. There,

1212
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 6: of course the opposite. He says, we can do it both.

1213
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 6: Anyone who tells you we can't do it both, we

1214
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 6: can't be the policeman of the world and take care

1215
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 6: of our own people has a very small minded vision

1216
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 6: of the United States. But it's not a small minded

1217
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:42,919
Speaker 6: vision of the United States. It's exactly what's happening. And

1218
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 6: Democrats are incapable of responding to what Trump taps into,

1219
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 6: which is telling people exactly that, saying we are not

1220
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 6: doing it both right now. We cannot have it all

1221
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:56,400
Speaker 6: right now until we start cracking down on this adventurism

1222
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 6: abroad and until we start treating immigration. It does have

1223
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 6: economic implications for people. We can debate what they are,

1224
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 6: but Democrats don't even talk about it, don't even talk

1225
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 6: about it in economic framing unless it's to say it's

1226
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 6: making us all better.

1227
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: All right, Well that'll do it for us today.

1228
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 6: That was so interesting.

1229
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: Show your Thanksgiving. Thank you. I'm glad you liked him.

1230
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:18,200
Speaker 6: And you'll be in Vermont.

1231
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 4: I think we're gonna go to Vermont for Thanksgiving and

1232
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 4: maybe do a little skiing. If it snows hopefully.

1233
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 8: WHOA.

1234
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,440
Speaker 6: All right, that'll be a lot of fun. I'll be

1235
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 6: back here with Crystal. Sackers headed off to Japan on

1236
01:05:28,640 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 6: this honeymoon, so Crystal and I will be holding on

1237
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 6: to four oral shows tomorrow and Monday and Tuesday.

1238
01:05:35,160 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: Wonderful. All right, see you guys soon.