1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. When 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: I look back, I see one through line from that 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: moment when I was seven, all the way from now, 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: which is my whole left goal is to create a 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 1: space that is safe enough to stay in the room. 6 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable, but like we are strong enough to hold it. 7 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: We're strong enough to hold this pain. We're strong up 8 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: to hold this truth, and that strength will set us free. 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: That's Rabbi David Inger, one of the most celebrated and 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: respected spiritual leaders in America. I know firsthand the way 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: David holds the pain and truth of others. He has 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: held mine more than once, and, as is so often 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 1: true of those who have open, empathic, compassionate hearts, those 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: hearts have been cracked wide open. As the man once said, 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: that's how the light gets in. I'm Danny Shapiro, and 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: this is family Secrets, the secrets that are kept from us, 17 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. Tell me about the landscape of your childhood. 19 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: M hmm, Well, I'm the youngest of four children. The 20 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: youngest is kind of maybe funny. I'm have a twin brother, 21 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: but we're two minutes or so apart, at least that's 22 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: what they told us. Grew up in Great Nick, Long Island. 23 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: My father was a I guess a refugee kind of 24 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: came over from Germany and I think he was five 25 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: and he was born to an Orthodox Jewish family from 26 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: Berlin and made his way here and grew up in 27 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: Forest Hills in Queensland with his younger brother. And that 28 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: my mother. She was sixteen when they had and they 29 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,839 Speaker 1: got married when she was seventeen and had my two 30 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: older sisters, beteen Enemar, and then we were born in 31 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, but moved to Great Neck in nineteen 32 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: seventy one, so I grew up in an affluent suburb 33 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: of New York. My father was a very well known 34 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: attorney and the real estate real estate attorney and well 35 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: respected member of our Jewish committee, one of the founders 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: and kind of engines behind the modern Orthodox Jewish family 37 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: that we had in the community that we lived in. 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: And my mom was worked at home. She was a homemaker. 39 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: Can you describe for listeners who don't know the distinctions 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: what it would have been like to grow up in 41 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: a modern Orthodox Jewish home it's a great question. I 42 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: think that modern Orthodoxy, as opposed to Orthodoxy in general, 43 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: kind of traditional Jewish observance generally tended to be slightly 44 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: and you know, have an antipathy, a kind of tension 45 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: with mcgernity. And so traditional Orthodoxy religion was paramount, and 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: religion was and religious observance was deeply insular and deeply 47 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: protective and purl kial right. And in the nineteen hundreds, 48 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: in nineties century rather in Germany, there was kind of 49 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: a movement to integrate both Magernity and science and all 50 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: of these features of the modern life in some way 51 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: with Orthodox Jewish life. And so modern Orthodoxy was decidedly 52 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: this hybrid between deeply engaged in Jewish life, people engaged 53 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: in what many would consider to be Orthodoxy and observance 54 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: and and all of the strictures and the rules and 55 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: all of the culture of zag but together with an 56 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: intention with and sometimes the tension, you know which one 57 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: in this tension modernity and kind of being a typical American, 58 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: so we grew up like that, we you know, on 59 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the outside of dressed like the typical American and typical 60 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: kids who lived in the suburbs we didn't look any 61 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: on the outside. We didn't look any different than any 62 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: of the other kids that we're growing up with. But 63 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: we went to a school that had you know, Biblical 64 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: studies and Talmutic studies and all the religious studies. And 65 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: then we also ate Kosher and we kept shabat in 66 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: a very orthodox way, meaning no lights and no phones, 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: and you know, the prayers on Friday night and going 68 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: to Sending God and Saturday morning very very big deal, 69 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: and you know, all the holidays, and so we kind 70 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: of lived this dual life that sought synthesis but didn't 71 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: always achieve it. And that's kind of like what the 72 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: Orthodox min Orthodox really really I grew up with. You know, 73 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: we dated, but like we're not supposed to were sort 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: of you know, we dateated girls and you weren't supposed 75 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: touch them. That was considered to be you know, sherman 76 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: to get you know, allowed to touch someone that you're 77 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: not married to. And so you can imagine Danny and 78 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: you know that as well, like you can imagine the 79 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: tension between being you know, a kid who loved depeche 80 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Mode and R. E. M And all the great music 81 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: and very involved in American cultural life, but also had 82 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: this weird double life of being an Orthodox Jew you 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: can't always work out. Yeah, it's so interesting hearing you 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: say all this, because we grew up similarly in that sense, um, 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: And I mean I felt that tension tremendously because there 86 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: wasn't a community around my parents and me who were 87 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: also modern Orthodox. We were sort of this modern Orthodox 88 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: family plunked into a neighborhood that was a mishmash of 89 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: many other faiths and ethnicities. And so I'm wondering where 90 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: that tension lived in you, because you know, I grew 91 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: up and rebelled and sort of moved pretty far away 92 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: from all that you grew up and ultimately became a rabbi. Well, 93 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: I had my rebellion. But I think that for me 94 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: as a kid, I was always very very connected spiritually 95 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: to God, to talk to God all the time, had 96 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: a running conversation with God. God was my best friend. 97 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: And especially because I experienced tremendous trauma in my first 98 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: ten years of life, I drew on that in a 99 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: very deep way, Like I very much turned to God 100 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: and prayed to God. Those were all true for me, 101 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: and what was also true for me in terms of 102 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: the tension was that I also was you know, I 103 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: was an athlete. I was an Abbot. Sports were like 104 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, my other religion, Like I lived in in 105 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: breed sports together with my twin brother, we were always 106 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: out in the field and always playing after school and 107 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: playing in school is one of the ways that I 108 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 1: used sports to natigate socially, Like you know, I was 109 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: popular because I was a good athlete and so on. 110 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 1: So the world of sports was also very much a 111 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: part of that world, but also with girls and sexuality 112 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: and all manner of just growing up and being a 113 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: human being. I think that the tension, you know, came 114 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: to full full on a tension and rebellion of course, 115 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: around puberty and sexuality. But I also think that there 116 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: was also a lingering sense of guilt, because I think 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 1: it's a model that at you at least for me, 118 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: I never fully felt like we were as orthodox as 119 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: we should be or as secular as we should be, 120 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: Like it never nothing, nothing ever felt like it landed 121 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: Like you know, my cousins who were much more observed, 122 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: much more orthodox, felt like they had a less tense life, 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: and I was wondered if they were the real one 124 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: the real orthodox, the real observant ones. And then on 125 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: the other hand, I also, you know, I wasn't so 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: involved in Jewish life that I couldn't imagine falling in 127 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: love with a non Jewish girl and living a completely 128 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: non Jewish life in somewhere or non religious life. So 129 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: I think that those tensions we used to go on 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: Saturday afternoons, I think once I hit puberty, my best 131 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: friend Yets father was a guy in ecologist and their 132 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: home was like a like a five minute walking months 133 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: and on Saturday afternoon on Shabbat, on the Sabbath after 134 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: we had a religious lunch and sang our religious songs 135 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: and really pined and yearned with my dad for you know, 136 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: for God and for love and for spirituality. We would 137 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: walk over to his house where his parents were not home, 138 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: and we were introduced to the world of inappropriate movies 139 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: or in a magazines. You know, So that guilt of 140 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: like both, you know, the rebellion was there but also 141 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: was held intention with feeling like you were sinning when 142 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: you were just being an average young boy was always 143 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: there and so there was never like you know, remember 144 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: the song from Depeche Moden. I was a kid like, 145 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's a it's a sin. I don't remember 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: that song. It goes something like, um, everything I've ever done, 147 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: everything I ever do, it's a sin. As I look 148 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: back up right, it's like as I look back upon 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: my life, it's always with a sense of shame. I've 150 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: always been the one to blame. So I kind of 151 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: feel like the religious patriarchy and some of the attitudes 152 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: of Orthodoxy that we're intention also we're deeply scarring, I 153 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: think for healthy development. And so those those are some 154 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: of the places that I remember everything you just said, 155 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: my mind is my mind is blown. You refer to 156 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: a childhood trauma. Can you talk about that? Sure? Um, 157 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: I was sexually molested in camp when I was seven 158 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: year old. I didn't remember it until I was in 159 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: my in my twenties, and I then was I had 160 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: a series of summers. It began with that summer, but 161 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: and then successive summers. I was physically abused by a 162 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: number of counselors in camp over the course of three summers. 163 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: Those experiences deeply, deeply affected me and left significant starring 164 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: that I then had to heal later on in my life. 165 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: And when I speak of my spiritual connection to God 166 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: or the spirit. That broken heartedness was a deep, a 167 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: deep imprint on me that then ultimately led me to 168 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: to where I became. But I became as an adult. 169 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: Was it the same camp all three summers? No, it wasn't. 170 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: What was remarkable, I mean, this is just basically I mean, 171 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: it's just like, so, there's a crazy thing. So so 172 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: I don't even remember half of the story in the 173 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 1: London in my in my twenties, right, and so I 174 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: remember when I remembered it. I was a long story, sure, 175 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: But when I was in my early twenties, I had 176 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: become a kind of fast ward with my story there 177 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: a little bit because after high school I went for 178 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: a year to Israel to study abroad. And that's kind 179 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: of de rigorous something that a lot of kids were 180 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: in the modern Orthodox world will go to for a 181 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: year seminary to Israel. It sounds much more like a 182 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: very serious year than what it really is. It's just 183 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 1: an exposure to being away from your family before you 184 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: go to college. And most parents hope that the kids 185 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: don't become too religious, and they just get religious enough 186 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: so that when they do go to college, they don't 187 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 1: you know, you don't marry somebody wasn't Jewish, and it's 188 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: just a chance to him to have an experience of 189 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: learning intensively. And I basically came back ultra Orthodox, like 190 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: I went as a modern Orthodox kid who was going 191 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: to go to college. And I come back after two 192 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: years in Israel, and I am like, full on looking 193 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: like my cousins. You know, when I was a kid, 194 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 1: my cousins with the long you know, dreadlocks and the 195 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: whole thing. I looked like a Hussad. And then I 196 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: go on this deeply religious trip for about five years, 197 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: and during that time I really have a break, like 198 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 1: I really have a break in reality. I go into 199 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: mystical states and I wind up getting completely lost in religion. 200 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: And I wake up five years into this, and I 201 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: realized that religion was essentially what I was using to 202 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: cover over some really really deep wounds in my heart 203 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: and in my psyche. And so I begin this journey 204 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: of healing. And the first thing I read and watch 205 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: is this John Bradshaw character from the nineties who is 206 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: the father of the Inner child work and the father 207 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: of homecoming and healing the shame that binds you. All 208 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: these really really vital works that exposed the American public to, 209 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: like for the first time, to these really profound notions 210 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: of pathology within the family and also how family systems 211 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: work and all this kind of business. And I just 212 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: get toned on and I wind up climbing like. One 213 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: of the only people doing Bradshaw's therapy in New York 214 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: at the time ninety three is a therapist out an 215 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: ice Lip, Long Island. It's about two hours from my 216 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: house in Great Night, Like I have to go to 217 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: the city. I'm going to go to Manhattan and to 218 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: go to ice Lip. It's a huge trip. And I 219 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: go out there and I'm in the therapist office and 220 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: I'm doing this kind of deep meditative work with with 221 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: this therapist, and all of a sudden, I retrieved this 222 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: memory of being a seven year old in a camp 223 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: called Camp Tagola and having a counselor, and this counselor 224 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: I remember him lesting me. Now, what I remembered before 225 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: that event was that I remember that I had been 226 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: beaten up so one evening. I don't remember being in it, 227 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: but I remember it from the outside as it were. 228 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: He was supposed to take me to the bathroom and 229 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: to go every night I to the bathroom, and instead 230 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: he winds up beating me up, and the lights go 231 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: on and the camp comes in and they stay me, 232 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: and he gets fired and they take him away. Right, 233 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: that's the part I remembered, But I didn't remember the 234 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: molestation until I was twenty three. I never ceased to 235 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: be amazed at what the psyche can handle, by which 236 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: I mean what our psyches can push down out of 237 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: reach until we're strong enough to handle whatever has been 238 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: buried there. It's like we have these different memory baskets. 239 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: David's memory of being beaten up is awful, but he's 240 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 1: able to retain it. He has a certain amount of 241 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: agency in that story. The counselor is fired, there are witnesses, 242 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: but the sexual molestation there are no witnesses, only a 243 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: potent residue of shame that pushes that memory into a 244 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: far distant basket where it remains for nearly two decades. 245 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: It was just so painful, and not just in terms 246 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: the social stigma, but it was just so painful, you know, 247 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: that level of violation. It was just so intimate and 248 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: so connected with the shame, the shame that children experience 249 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: in those moments, because it's also wrapped up with connection, 250 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: but it was like a connection, or at least the 251 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: way that these at least often play out is that 252 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: you're young and absolutely vulnerable and trusting and open. And 253 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: so it was a kind of a deep scar for me. 254 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: And what was most what was most remarkable to me 255 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: was that that in my family and I have a 256 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: very loving and courageous and strong family, there remarkable people, 257 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:46,119 Speaker 1: and this never made its way into our collective identity 258 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: and memory, like it doesn't exist. Nobody wanted to talk 259 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: about it. There's no there was no room to talk 260 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: about it. Even when we do remember abuse and we 261 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: get to talk about it, often those who love us 262 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: find it hard to hear. And I think that is 263 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: also part of the way that the fear manifests to, 264 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: is that we're so afraid to talk about something that 265 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: makes us uncomfortable. We're so collectively averse to discomfort by nature. 266 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: It's remarkable, right well, And it's also then this kind 267 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: of merry go round of secrecy, silence, shame, secrecy, silence, shame, 268 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: Around and around we go and one feeds the other. 269 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: Right when I remembered it, it was deeply liberating for 270 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: me to have had that secret as it were surfaced 271 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: for me and to tell the truth about it. And 272 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 1: it was actually, you know, I want to get ahead 273 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: of myselfiters and how I became a rabbi ultimately, But 274 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: that that moment in my life, it was when I 275 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: left religion and then went on a journey for about 276 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: a decade or so healing that was catalyzed by my 277 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: deep desire to not use religion or anything else as 278 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: a way to cover over the necessary healing what what 279 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: young and others have called like you're legitimate suffering, like 280 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: a legitimate suffering that as a human being I needed 281 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: to experience and heal so that when I did come 282 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: essentially back to religion and back to some of these 283 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: other things, that I wouldn't use it as a way 284 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: to cover up secrets. Such a powerful notion. I mean, 285 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: we know that we use things to cover over what 286 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: David calls our necessary healing. Some of us use drugs, booze, sex, 287 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: the internet, dizziness, distraction, I could go on. But David 288 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: becomes aware that he's using religion as a means to 289 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: cover over, to avoid that necessary healing, and that awareness 290 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: takes him on a journey that ultimately brings him back 291 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: to God, but on very different terms. Can you talk 292 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: a little bit about that decade, Aid and what that 293 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: journey was and then the decision to go to rabbinic 294 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: school and become a rabbi. Sure, I know many of 295 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: your listeners and certainly you're familiar with Alice Miller's booth. 296 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: You know that was originally called Prisoners of Childhood, and 297 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: then it was the Drama of the Gifted Child. And 298 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: I think that my own journey over the course of 299 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: that decade was very much I was living as a 300 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: waiter in New York City. I kind of made a 301 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: living as a waiter. I kind of worked at night, 302 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: and during the day I was doing this deep work. 303 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 1: I got very involved in in yoga, I got very 304 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: involved in Eastern meditation and other modalities of healing. You know, 305 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: I just, you know, all of a sudden, it was 306 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: like I was in New York City. Is that the 307 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: cornucopia of life? Like I experienced aliveness and that was 308 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: like my number one desire during this ten years was 309 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: to really reconnect with the quality of aliveness that I 310 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: had known as a child, that I had lost to 311 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: some degree after these traumas and that I had lost 312 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: also in my teams, and that certainly would have came 313 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: a religious fanatic. For five years, I was completely in 314 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: the closet as a as a human and so here 315 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: I you know, I went through those ten years of 316 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: self exploration and travel, and you know, I became like 317 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: a bit of a spiritual dilettante. I sat meditation retreats, 318 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: I enrolled in massage school for ACU pressure, I was 319 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: a teacher of plotis. I did a lot of these 320 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: things over you know, I could go through a whole 321 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 1: list of them, but all of them were basically in 322 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: some way in service of self healing, self discovery, self empowerment, aliveness, UM. 323 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: And so that's essentially the decade. It was. It was 324 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: a lot of experiences and a lot of healing, but 325 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: one thing that I couldn't move away from was a 326 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: spiritual calling. And I felt like the spiritual calling in 327 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: everything that I was doing was calling me back to 328 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: my religious tradition, but to see it and feel it 329 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: in a way that was now informed by the things 330 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: that I had experienced in other places, you know, more meditation, 331 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: more aliveness, more embodied approach to sexuality into being a 332 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: human are just a much more liberal and open ended 333 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: way to be in Jewish life. That's essentially how it 334 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: came back. We'll be back in a moment with more 335 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: family secrets. When David is just two years out of 336 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: rabbinical school in two thousand six, he creates a community 337 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: on the Upper West Side of New York City called 338 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: Roma MoU. Today, Roma MoU is one of the most 339 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: beloved institutions in contemporary Jewish culture, a welcoming, experiential, irreverently pious, 340 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: intergenerational Jewish community that elevates and transforms individuals and communities 341 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: into more compassionate human beings. Its stores are open to 342 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: spiritual seekers and skept dicks alike, sharing a path that 343 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: celebrates our wholeness and provides practical, grounded ways to heal 344 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: our brokenness. In other words, David builds a spiritual world 345 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: on his terms, one that rises up from his own trauma, 346 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: his stops and starts his healing journey. In Judaism, there 347 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: is a Hebrew phrase tikun olam, which translates into repair 348 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: the world. It's all we can try to do for me. 349 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: It was an amazing journey of retrieval. You know, we 350 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: often speak about in the healing word regression in service 351 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: of the ego, where you go back to bring something forward. 352 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: And I think that me going back to Judaism was 353 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: a desire to go back and take what was really 354 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: beautiful there and pull it through into my present reality. 355 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: And it wasn't easy because in my thirties I was 356 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: still in this kind of fantasy bond, which is what 357 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: some people call the way that we still look at 358 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: our parents as God's He can be in a fantasy 359 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: bond with your religious tradition, like I think, I was 360 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: still thinking the Judaism was perfect and God given him, 361 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: and I was to blame, right, it's all. You know. 362 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: I just had a ten years of walking away and 363 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: I was gonna heal myself. But then I was gonna 364 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: come back to the Orthodox again, and I almost got 365 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: caught in there. And thankfully I tried an Orthodox or 366 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: clinical school that was modern when I tried coming back 367 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: to Judaism in my early thirties, and luckily, I felt 368 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: like I had a size ten soul and its size 369 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: four religious tradition and it just didn't work. You know, 370 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: there were enough blisters on my soul. At that point, 371 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: I said, Nope, that's not working, and I left. And 372 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: I'm lucky to have met my teacher, whose name is 373 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: Rabbi Zalman Shakter. And when I met him, it was 374 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: like a chiropractic adjustment on my soul, like I just 375 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: I felt like I met somebody who was in it. 376 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: He was eighty years old when I met him, and 377 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,560 Speaker 1: I was in my thirties, and he had already been 378 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: through a Hasidic ultra Orthodox jew who then found the 379 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: counterculture of the sixties and had had done all of 380 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: these things, but had created a very new age, open ended, 381 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: deeply spiritual, meditative, but liberal expression of Jewish life. And 382 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: when I met him in two thousand and four, he 383 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: ordained me. And two years later I started this community 384 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: on the Upper West Side of Manhattan and that was it, 385 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: and kind of like you know, it's now fourteen years 386 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: since we started it, and as you know, it's it's 387 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: grown and we have more than one. We have one 388 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn too, and we started our own seminary Shiva 389 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: to train people and to engage people in this kind 390 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: of more open hearted, embodied Jewish expression. So David build 391 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: and makes his own home, spiritually speaking, which becomes a 392 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: home to so many others. He marries his wife Ariel, 393 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: and they start a family. This might seem like an ending, 394 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: all wrapped up in a bow, but of course that 395 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: isn't how life unfolds, not for David, not for any 396 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: of us. We got married a dozen in dates, and 397 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: we had our first child and new dozen nine there. 398 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: And I think one of the most remarkable things is 399 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: that the thing about secrets, and the thing also about 400 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: karma or or whatever it is that we carry whatever 401 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: we want to call it, you know, our life pattern 402 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: or the patterns of previous lives, whatever your belief system is. 403 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: But like the structure of how experience imprints itself on 404 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: us and how we are, we are we're made by that, 405 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: and we also brings who we are before that. It's 406 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: like all of that stuff, Like that stuff doesn't actually 407 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: work itself out. Until it works itself out, we're not done. 408 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: The thing about secrets is that we think that that 409 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: not dealing with them is actually a useful way to 410 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: make the issue go away. If we don't see it, 411 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: it's you know, out of sight, out of mind, or 412 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: split off from us. It's shadow but as young said, 413 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: and others said, it lingers and someone heard once a 414 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: secret seat, you know, secret seat. And so the family 415 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: secrets that we carry and our own personal secrets that 416 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: we carry will work themselves out the more awake we 417 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: want to be. They'll just we'll find them in our lives. 418 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: We'll just see him kind of working themselves out in 419 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 1: our life. Meaning it'll show up. It'll keep showing up 420 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: as a pattern, will keep showing up. And I think 421 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that when we had kids, when Orel and I had kids, 422 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't surprising to me in certain ways that our 423 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,479 Speaker 1: eldest kid was gonna have a lot of the energy 424 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: that I had as a kid, and that I would 425 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: have a chance to like try to meet that child 426 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: in a certain way describe there for me. So there 427 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 1: is them, our eldest child. He's now eleven years old. 428 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: He's um, charismatic, brilliant, highly verbal, what some people call 429 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: twice exceptional, meaning like he's off the charts in terms 430 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: of his intelligence, and he's also off the charts in 431 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: terms of his extreme sensitivity and emotional sensitivity. He has 432 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: a number of learning challenges that he's working with, it 433 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: are working with with him dyslexia and other things, and 434 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:13,239 Speaker 1: he is He's there. Bear off the charts. Bear is 435 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: off the charts in ways that would be a huge 436 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: challenge to any parent. Bear is the oldest of three. 437 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 1: There are two even younger children at home. So one 438 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 1: of the last few years it's been like for you 439 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: as a family contending with embracing the challenges that Bear 440 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: has presented. They've been very, very difficult for us, you know, 441 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: from the last since since I guess two or two 442 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: or three years old, we are we realized that there 443 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: were some issues that were happening that had to do 444 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: with the impulse control and his own kind of emotional 445 00:25:52,320 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: regulation issues, frustration being very high, and frustration moving from 446 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: being frustrated or being sad or disappointed into anger. And UM, 447 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: I think that we as parents were so prepared and 448 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: so excited, and so I felt so blessed, and we 449 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: still do. But I think early on we were we 450 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: realized that we um, something wasn't working, and we were 451 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: completely in the dark, and we tried our best to 452 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: make sense of what some of the things that were happening, 453 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: and it was really really hard. Nobody really understood totally 454 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: what was going on. And we struggled. And I think 455 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: that someone once said that it was a struggle to 456 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: keep the house safe. And it was very hard to 457 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: get Bary to go to school in the morning. It 458 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: was we're hard to get into good a bed at night. 459 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: We were reading up on oppositional definance disorder and O 460 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: D D and and all the other there's you know, labels, 461 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: and nothing exactly fit. And and we were just beside 462 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: ourselves because this is our first child, and all parents, 463 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: you know, your your first child. You're just getting your 464 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: feet under you as a parent, so you just want 465 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: to feel like you know what you're doing. And and 466 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: we were working so hard. You know, we've had so 467 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: many books on it, and we've all done so much 468 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: working ourselves, and here we were really stymied by this 469 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: soul and trying to figure out how best to parent 470 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: and how best to be with him. And the number 471 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 1: of theories and the number of approaches were legion. I mean, 472 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: you know this too, right, And it's like everybody has 473 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: an idea on how to help and what the right approaches, 474 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: and you know, are you being too leaning or not 475 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: being leaning? En offer? And how do you make boundaries? 476 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 1: And you know, everybody's got an opinion about ary thing. 477 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: And we struggled. We were being shamed that many people. 478 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: People shamed us for and blamed us assume that it 479 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: was our fault, that we must have done something wrong 480 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: or we're not, you know, parenting appropriately. And so we 481 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: we struggled, and we couldn't really tell any when I 482 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: was very close group of people that we did tell 483 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: that we were struggling with. But it was that was 484 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: that compounded the problem because we didn't know what was 485 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: going on, and we couldn't share how confused we were 486 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: or that it was even happening for that matter, right, 487 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: and I meanwhile, you have too younger kids at home, right, 488 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: let me get two other kids exactly eventually. And you also, 489 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: it's coinciding with this astounding growth of Roma MoU and 490 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: you meaning more and more, two, more and more people 491 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: as a rabbi, as a pastoral rabbi, as a kind 492 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: of you're not going to like my saying this, but 493 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: like rock star kind of from the BMA, you know, 494 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: from the podium, Rabbi was incredible, powerful charisma and this 495 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: is happening in your home. How did you contend with that? 496 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: That sort of split between deeply private and very public. 497 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: It was how I mean, it was how I could 498 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: just say it was at the time in my life 499 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: and where I felt that I had spent so much 500 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: of my life's energies being able to trying to arrive 501 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: at a place in my in my life and in 502 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: my career where my desire to serve, my desire to shine, 503 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: my desire to give my gifts to the world or 504 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: and have them received. It was all happening. And leaving 505 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: the house every morning was my My whole nervous system 506 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: was completely shock like. Every day was three days. It 507 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: was the morning was one day, then there was my 508 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: work day, and then my evenings. That's three days. It 509 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: was a twenty one day week. And on top of that, 510 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: on top of that, my public life required me and 511 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: the people who listen to this notice of your clergy, 512 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: of your ministers in priests and got by the moment 513 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: so on that it required me in any given day 514 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: to be at the death bed, at the bedside of 515 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: somebody who's dying with cancer, who was in their prime, 516 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: the tragedy of that, To move from night into dealing 517 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,959 Speaker 1: with the joy of a wedding couple, to move from 518 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: night into into the responsibility to write a stellar sermon 519 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: or something that involves really you know, analytic thinking and 520 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: eloquence and communication. Like, the responsibilities of my job were 521 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: immense on every level, intellectually, usually emotionally, physically, And I'll 522 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: talk about that to go home and I feel like 523 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: that it was almost impossible for for me and my 524 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: wife to create the home environment that was safe for everybody. 525 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: And we had little kids, and so people in the 526 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: community started to murmur, you know, why can't we why 527 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: aren't we being invited over the and you know, to 528 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: the rabbi's home. You know, what do we do? So 529 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: we were in a cash way too, because we couldn't 530 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: ask for the support of the community, because it's one 531 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: of those things that as a pastor, as you know, 532 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,719 Speaker 1: as a therapist, like it's not a reciprocal we're not 533 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: even in relationship. It's not like you know, and when 534 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,479 Speaker 1: it's happened, by the way, the community hasn't always received it. 535 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: The community looks up to you as a father figure, 536 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: a mother figure, an authority figure. There's all of this happening, 537 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: and so you don't tell them what's going on in 538 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: your private life and yet it can not impact your 539 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: public life, and then you can't even get the support 540 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: of the community that you found it, and I found 541 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 1: it because that's not the role that they play with me, 542 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: and it's part of the circle that's double bind. And 543 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: so it was depleting and exhausting and enervating. And those 544 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 1: are hard years. Those are hard years, very hard years. 545 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: So how did those hard years come to a head 546 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: or how did you come to you know, sort of 547 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: the next chapter in this story for you? I mean, 548 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: I think that the next chapter began when we acknowledged, 549 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: like like a good twelve step first step, we acknowledged 550 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: that there was a problem that we couldn't fix it 551 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: on our own. We started to talk about it and 552 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: we realized that it wasn't because we were bad parents, 553 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: and we didn't have to be ashamed. We could we 554 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: could seek help, and we did seek Helvin. I mean, 555 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: we worked hard on ourselves to learn how to be 556 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: the parents like he needed us to be because he's 557 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: so unusual, and we had to change and we had 558 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: to grow ourselves and we had to get a lot 559 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: of support and we were still figuring out, but we 560 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: are getting help. But even the things are at times 561 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: still very hard. We do definitely see things getting better. 562 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: I guess what's most important is that we talk about 563 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: it with each other and with others, and in our family. 564 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: We talked about the hard things and the big feelings, 565 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: and we work hard to make it safe to sit. 566 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: But what feels uncomfortable, we see that that's really where 567 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: the healing comes from. We'll be back in a moment 568 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: with more family secrets. One of the things that I 569 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: think is so beautiful and remarkable is that journey from 570 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: I have to keep this a secret or I have 571 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, I have this role in people's lives. Two 572 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: you're talking to me, you're talking to us to these listeners, 573 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: which means that you have spoken about this with your community. 574 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: You you did reach a point where are holding it close. 575 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: Keeping its secret was more painful then not. Was there 576 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: a turning point or was it a gradual thing? I 577 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: think that what happens, what happens in our intimate spaces, 578 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: what happens in our homes, right, what happens in our homes, 579 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: What happens in our in our own home, in our 580 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: own heart, what happens you know, when the lights are closed, 581 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,479 Speaker 1: no one's watching is a real earmark. It's a real 582 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: it's an indicator for our our society at large. And 583 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: I know for myself, not just as a public figure, 584 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 1: but just as a human being. And I'm not advocating 585 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: for us to tell the whole world every secret that 586 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: we have. And there are things that are that are 587 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: obviously intimate, and there are things that should be shared 588 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: only with a group of people that are you know, 589 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: our intimate family or intimate friends and so on. But 590 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: the energy that it took for me to not acknowledge 591 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: the impact of something right, to not disclose and not tell, 592 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: to not share, and to be owner about like what 593 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: I was holding and how it was impacting me and 594 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: by extension out with impacting my community. It was too great. 595 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: It was too great to hold that, it was too much. 596 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: It was it was literally physically I could feel that 597 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: my body. I couldn't take it anymore, and it was 598 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: impacting everyone. So for example, a couple of you know, 599 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: this past year, Roman whom I'm very proud of this 600 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: in our Jewie community, Romo became the first synagode to 601 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: ever have a Shabbat of the child. And on the 602 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: Shabbat of the Child, which was co sponsored with the 603 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: Center for Child Abuse and for Domestic Abuse. I spoke 604 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: publicly for the second time, but really for the first 605 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: time in a real way about my own experiences as 606 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 1: a child, and the number of people that wrote to 607 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: me afterwards who shared with me their story was just 608 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: it was just, you know, it was unbelievable that I could, 609 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: in some way for them to hear me as a 610 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,280 Speaker 1: rabbi speaking from the pulpit about my vulnerability, my wound, 611 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: that you know, for them to be able to say, yeah, 612 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: me too, like him too, he has it too, and 613 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: to become fluent in that way of airing the depth 614 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: of our power, which is also the depth of our wound. Right, 615 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: that that that wound was there and that I could 616 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: share it, I think that was for me a very 617 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: it was liberating for me. And also when it comes 618 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: to this family secret, as it were, that it was 619 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: very liberating to just to say, you know, this is 620 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: what it looks like in our home daily. You know, 621 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't want your sympathy per sage and you know 622 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: how hard it is, and it invites a kind of 623 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: generosity like the danger, of course, is that it might 624 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: invite a scarcity, might to listen to somebody else a 625 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: feeling of awkwardness. As we said, they might shame us, 626 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: they might walk away, they might do whatever they can 627 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: do the things that they might say do some of 628 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: the things that we're most terrified they're going to do. Right, 629 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: But it also when we close ourselves off because of 630 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: that fear, we also close ourselves off to the generosity 631 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: that might come as a response as well, someone saying 632 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, wow, that really touches me. I feel you 633 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: in a way that I never would have felt. You 634 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: your humanity and I identify with you right. I am 635 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: also struggling. I'm also strangling, and that's a very profound 636 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: gift to give to someone. When we share our stories, 637 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 1: they say, I can feel your humanity, and I feel 638 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: more connected to you. As we near the end of 639 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: David's story, I find myself thinking of one of Emily 640 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,720 Speaker 1: Dickinson's sonnets, in which she writes, my life closed twice 641 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: before its close, which I take to mean we aren't 642 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 1: meted out a certain amount of difficulty in measured doses. 643 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: So I wonder how does David hold these two traumas, 644 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: the one that happened to him at age seven and 645 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 1: then the struggles of his firstborn son, who is so 646 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: like him in so many ways. I see them all 647 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: as one piece. The first thing I feel is that 648 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: seeing my son in a way and it struggles that 649 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: he's had opened me up too, was generous to my 650 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: own parents in a way that I never would have 651 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: had in any of that point in my life, because 652 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: I can see however I am, and I can look 653 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: back and say, wow, as I heard someone would say, 654 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: I might have had a ten gallant soul in a 655 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of court family, you know, a 656 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,840 Speaker 1: ten five family with a ten gallant soul. Like there's 657 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: things that I just know and connect with in terms 658 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: of who I was now in retrospect that I never 659 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: would have. And so when I look back, I see 660 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 1: one through line from that moment when I was seven, 661 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: all the way from now, which is my whole life's 662 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: goal is to create a space that is safe enough 663 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: to stay in the room. It's uncomfortable, but like we 664 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,759 Speaker 1: are strong enough to hold it. We're strong enough to 665 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: hold this pain we're throwing up and to hold this truth, 666 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: and that strength will set us free. It's not just 667 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: that the truth will set us free. The truth and 668 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: our capacity to hold it right. And we can build 669 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: that capacity by returning to safety, returning to the messages 670 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: of love and compassion and goodness. All of those things 671 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: to me are part of one seamless line from when 672 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: I was seven until now, which is, you know, how 673 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: do we create an environment and a container where people 674 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 1: feel safe enough to be true, safe enough to be honest, 675 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: and safe enough to heal. That's what the Holy is 676 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: for me. That's what the Holy is for me. The 677 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: quality of that, you know, running conversation that you had 678 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: with God as a child. You know, God was your 679 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: best friend, that was when you turned to and then 680 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: you went through this whole journey of becoming ultra Orthodox, 681 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 1: and and then your decade long quest, is the quality 682 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: of your conversation with God today in a way similar 683 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: to what it was when you were a child, or 684 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:56,120 Speaker 1: has it has it changed? You know? I sometimes wish 685 00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: that I had that child like ease, and it's been 686 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: complicated over the years. I went through a period where 687 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: I was so angry at God that the only thing 688 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,439 Speaker 1: I could say was I could only chris God out 689 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: for a while, and I allowed myself those feelings. And 690 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: I've gone through periods where I didn't believe in the 691 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: personal God or I still do. And you know, the 692 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: face of God has changed so much from me over 693 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 1: the years, but it hasn't eliminated that space. You know, 694 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: that space to me, and it's sophisticated as my belief 695 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: in God or you know, or my understanding what God 696 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: is has grown and sophisticated as it has been. You know, 697 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: there is still that simple place that when I closed 698 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: my eyes, it's not hard for me access, like the 699 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: heart of a longing that I think that was something 700 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,799 Speaker 1: that I experienced as a child. I experienced it with 701 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: my father, with the way that he's sang and our 702 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: you know, on Shabbat, there was a pathos, a kind 703 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: of the childlike quality. Was not playful with God. It 704 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: wasn't like, oh God, let's go for a walk through 705 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: the park. You know that it's much later on, but 706 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: God was still the one that I turned to, especially 707 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: in moments of pain and moans of longing and alments 708 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: of yearning. And for me, it's not hard at all 709 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: when I closed my eyes in prayer to re access 710 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: that place. And it doesn't feel sad to me in 711 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: the way that's sad can be depressing. It feels alive 712 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: and invertent like. It feels like like when I'm in 713 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 1: that aliveness, which is a yearning, I feel very much 714 00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: privileged to just to be, you know, just to be, 715 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: and it holds all of the hopes that I have 716 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: for myself and also the hopes that I have for 717 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: humanity and for the globe, and for a longing for 718 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: there to be peace and goodness. And so I saved 719 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: that place for myself when I closed my eyes. Between 720 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: me and my God, we meet there, exchanging glances over 721 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: a kind of see of of longing for a world, 722 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: but we only have glimpses of it that I pray 723 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: made manifest. Family Secrets is an I Heeart Media production. 724 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer and Bethan Mcaluso is 725 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: the executive producer. We'd also like to give a special 726 00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: thanks to Tyler Klang and Tristan McNeil. If you have 727 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: a family secret you'd like to share, leave us a 728 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: voicemail and your story could appear on an upcoming episode. 729 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: Our number is one eight secret zero. That's secret and 730 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 1: then the number zero. You can also find us on 731 00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook at facebook dot com, 732 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:03,120 Speaker 1: slash Family secrets Pot, and Twitter at FAM secret Spot. 733 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the I 734 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 735 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,