WEBVTT - Fighting Antisemitism with Shane Burley and Ben Lorber 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:08.799 Also media, Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:12.360 and today I'm joined with the authors Shane Burley and 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:14.960 Ben Lorber, who have a new book out called A 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.160 Safety Through Solidarity, A Radical Guide to Fighting Anti Semitism. 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.640 Shane reached out to me to talk about both the 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:27.440 book and a variety of issues revolving around this topic. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:29.360 Thank you for coming on, both of you. 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:30.680 Yeah, thanks for having us on. 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:32.680 Yeah, yeah, thanks for having us So. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:35.159 A few months ago I put out an episode looking 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:37.720 at a genuine uptick in anti Semitic incidents that have 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.320 happened in the United States and Europe, and sometimes it 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.480 feels kind of like a tricky thing to talk about. 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:44.440 In some ways, it's. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.320 Like you're threading a very difficult needle. It's like you're 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.199 caught between a rock and a hard place when discussing 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.040 this topic, because if you point to an actual trend 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.040 that you're seeing showing a genuine spike in anti Semitic incidents, 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.800 there's like a subset of people who are very focused 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.880 on the genocide in Gaza, very rightly so, but they 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.000 might push back since claims of anti Semitism have been 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.080 so conflated with any display of anti Zionist politics, or 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.759 even worse, they might even question, why are you talking 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.280 about this when there's this other horrible thing going on 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.600 right the actual genocide in Gaza. Now, I think, meanwhile, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.800 if you avoid this as a lesser or a non issue, 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:21.280 if if you don't talk about these things, I would 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.440 argue that actually strengthens the Zionist political project of tying 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.640 Jewish safety solely to the state of Israel. And in 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.480 some ways, I think ignoring this entire issue legitimizes a 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:34.319 degree of criticisms that are being leveled against these massive 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.760 protests and calls for a ceasefire and justice in Palestine. 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.160 So I guess, how long have you been putting together 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:42.479 this book and how much did the war in Gaza 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.039 this past year kind of change the scope of it 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:45.959 as you were writing this? 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.400 Yeah, I mean we started, I think Ben and I 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.920 started talking about this and in the twenty nineteen beginning 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:54.120 of twenty twenty, so it's a totally it was a 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.960 totally different context when we started working on the book, 0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.960 and what we had been wanting was actually the sort 0:01:59.960 --> 0:02:02.960 of like drive a wedge into what you're talking about here. 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.960 Which is like that there isn't really good discourse on 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:08.680 what anti semitism actually is that takes it seriously, that 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:12.559 doesn't just kind of deflect and project onto anti Zionism. 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.880 Since Ben and I both come from like a history 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.560 of organizing a Palestine solidarity movement, me with Students for 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.200 Justice Palestine on campus, then the Jewish Voice for Peace, 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.520 so we had seems to basically firsthand how accusations of 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.400 anti Semitism basically leveled just constantly at Palastine solidarity protesters, 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.200 and then also in research and covering the far right, 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:38.080 seeing obviously the growth of anti Semitism in white nationalism 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.680 both in the US and internationally, and that only increased 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.080 increase over time. So we wanted to work on something 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:47.720 that took that seriously and also sort of revive different 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.440 traditions from the left that talk about anti semitism, whether 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.000 it's anti fascism, are different kind of Marxist trends or 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.320 the Jewish left kind of bring it to one place, 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:57.320 talk to other folks who are also taking it seriously, 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:00.880 and weave that together. All of that is different. And 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.120 before October seventh, because we were turning in the draft 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.160 or a book like a matter of days after October 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:07.840 seventh happened. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:09.200 Oh wow, we went and talked. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.200 To the publisher. We're like, well, the whole world has changed. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.080 I mean, we have to we have to make changes 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.480 about it. And so we've made some and basically, like 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.320 I address some questions there, and I think you can 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:20.840 kind of see the in the conclusion of like the 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:22.720 very end of the book kind of where we cut 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:26.600 it off in November December area and sort of have 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.960 acknowledge that things are different here. But I think that 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.480 there's also bigger questions that we're talking about now that 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.960 like we're doing interviews and the writing articles and stuff 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:36.800 afterwards about how that's changed. But a lot of this really, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.080 I think one thing that's important is that because we 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.280 make very clear, like very incredibly clear, the anti Zionism 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.960 not the same as anti Semitism in a way, that 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.680 conversation is the same as before, because we're actually talking 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.040 about where real anti Semitism lives. And if you look 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.480 at the way that this course is now, particularly from 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.440 groups like in the Defamation League, is it's basically built 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:00.680 entirely around you know, attacking college protests, right, attacking these 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.080 mass anti genocide demonstrations, right, And since that's so foundationally 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.560 different than how we understand anti semitism, there's a way 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.280 in which, like the conversation that has the book is 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:12.320 sort of the same. And what do you think about this, Ben? 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.960 Yeah, No, I mean I agree that it really hasn't 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.640 changed that much, even though it's just a lot bigger 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:21.080 and more prominent. And the forces that are trying to 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.880 attack the Movement for Justice and pasts that are stronger. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.599 They're trying to pass legislation taking away our free speech rights, 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.800 they're trying to restrict academic freedom, they're trying to go 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.240 after the irs status of justice organizations. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:37.400 So the stakes are really high. 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:41.080 I think the intervention that we've always been wanting to 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.200 make is to really put the conversation backward alongs like 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.400 on the rise of the far right, on the rise 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.640 of white Christian nationalism. Right, anti Semitism is part of 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.440 the right wing worldview. It's just like the other systems 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:01.440 of oppression like anti blackness, anti LGBTQ, biggest true Islamophobia, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.400 anti integrant xenophobia, anti Semitism. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:05.960 Is deeply connected. 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:11.400 Right, These George Soros conspiracies are being used by authoritarian. 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.240 Leaders like Donald Trump and JB. 0:05:13.400 --> 0:05:16.359 Vance and the rest of them to build up the 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.839 MAGA base and to attack the foundations of our multi 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.279 racial democracy. And we've seen it have deadly results for 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.159 Jews and for other groups. You know, white nationalists, you know, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.640 mass shooters who are motivated by anti Semitic conspiracy theories, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.320 have attacked synagogues, have attacked Latin X communities, have a 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.240 Black communities, and so yeah, anti Semitism is part of 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.039 that machinery of oppression. And so our book tries to 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.240 reframe the conversation and give Justice Organizer a way to 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.800 take back the conversation away from the right. 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:48.880 Would one of you be willing to give like a 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.360 workable definition of anti Semitism because this is a word 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.719 that's certainly been used a lot, but I think it's 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.200 a word that signifies possibly a lot of different things. 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.040 And I guess what is the definition of antisemitism that 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.480 you are using in your book. 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:06.599 Yes, Sott, we really see anti Semitism as a form 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:12.680 of conspiracy theory thinking that developed out of Christianity in 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.839 Christian Europe and that essentially sees Jews as the root 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:20.480 cause of evil or the root cause of the world's 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.080 problems kind of behind the scenes. It trades in images 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:29.640 of a cabal lurking behind either government or the media 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.800 or the economy. And these conspiracy theories are core to 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:40.160 an authoritarian and nationalists worldview that mobilize, you know, millions 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:45.200 really away from examining and confronting the root causes of 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.800 oppression and convinces them to chase, you know, kind of 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.520 illusory shadows instead. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.680 Why do we have like a harder time kind of 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.800 pinning down this term? You know, I think people have 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.839 a general idea and a pretty easy way to like see, like, 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:00.760 you know, what's like islamophobic? 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:01.920 Right, what's racist? 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.839 There's a few points in your book that you talk about, 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.600 you know, instances of people maybe unintentionally spreading anti Semitism 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.000 that if they were instead talking about like Muslims or 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.440 like trans people or like black people, they would like 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.520 easily identify as like, Oh, this is very clearly a 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.440 form of like xenophobia. This is very clearly like based 0:07:20.480 --> 0:07:23.200 on some kind of like conspiratorial discrimination. 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:25.480 Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few reasons for this, 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:26.880 and we talk about this in the book. I Mean 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:30.400 one of them is that the way the anti Semitism 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.480 has operated is generally a narrative about punching up against power, 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.600 versus a lot of narratives of oppression, which are basically 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:42.200 about how various groups are subhuman or lesser than dominant population. 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.960 That's slightly different with Jews, though that has been a 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.320 component of some pieces of it historically. Is basically a 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.160 narrative that people who feel disempowered then use to sort 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.760 of like reclaim a sort of kind of populous energy, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:55.400 and a lot of ways it ends up being a 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:58.760 place where folks are directed by people in power to 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:02.280 put their class aang or away from the actual ruling class. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:06.160 So I think in a way, when people see anti Semitism, 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.760 they also recognize that there's legitimate class anchor legitimate like disenfranchisement, 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.160 and I think that's actually troubling to sort of people 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.160 don't want to undermine that feeling always necessarily. I think 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.160 there's also just the complexity of Jewish identity that's shifted 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:24.040 over time, different populations, different communities, different politics, sometimes religious, 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.600 sometimes more cultural, sometimes more ethnic. That can make it confusing. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.160 So it's hard to use one model for understanding impression 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.880 than projected onto this and so in a lot of ways, 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:36.400 you kind of have to come at this question distinctly 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.920 from kind of other forms of oppression. That's actually true 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.320 of most forms of opression. They have a lot of distinctiveness, 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:43.520 but I think you have to kind of learn about 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.360 those contours. And again, I think part of it is 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.200 also that this hasn't been a big part of the 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:51.680 left conversation in the last twenty or thirty years. It 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:53.960 is to be more frequent that this would be like 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.360 you know, maybe trainings and left spaces where people would 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.839 talk about that. It just simply hasn't been the case 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:01.360 that much recently, and so I think there's actually a 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:05.120 big lack of just understanding of how to notice those 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:07.760 things and talk about them. And then I think weaponization 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.240 has become such it's not just such an overwhelming part 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.240 of it. It's actually the dominating conversation on anti semitism, 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.960 particularly in the US. So when you hear about anti semitism, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:19.520 it's overwhelmingly going to be directed by the center or 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:23.280 the right, or for institutions directed at Palestine solidarity movements. 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.920 And again, people get heartened skin to that that they 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.080 don't want to give an inch on those sorts of things, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:30.360 and I totally understand why, and so I think that 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.040 also has created that boundary of where examination would normally 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:34.520 take place. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.800 It is interesting looking at like how much the right 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.040 wing has been able to weaponize claims of anti semitism 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.480 against the left. I think the term that you use 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.040 in the book is selective outrage on anti semitism, because 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.719 I mean, I was just at the RNC and you're 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.640 hearing Marjorie Taylor Green talk about how there's like antisemitic 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.560 protests happening around the country, and you're like, wait a minute, 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.520 you're the Jewish space laser person, what are you talking about? 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.160 And I think it was Dysantis who just called all 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.880 university protesters hamas, right, not saying that they're like amas, 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.800 but just literally saying like these people are like are Hamas, 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:15.360 Like hamas took over university protests. And meanwhile, you would 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.000 be hard pressed to find anybody on this camp talking about, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.480 you know, this strong degree, especially considering DeSantis, the strong 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:26.840 degree of anti Semitic people either involved in their own 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.920 campaigns or like their actual supporters. It was just a 0:10:30.000 --> 0:10:34.679 year ago where DeSantis's campaign staff released a video of 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:37.800 him with the sonnet rat it's like Kamad buddy. So 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.160 it is interesting how how they've been able to try 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:44.520 to weaponize those claims while completely ignoring like the structural 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.120 anti semitism like baked into this new wave of nationalist 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:49.959 politics that we're seeing in the United States. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:53.040 Yeah, no, it's totally. The example of Marjorie Taylor Green 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.440 is so striking. I mean, she, I believe, in the 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.680 same day once she called the protesters on a college 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.360 campus of anti Semitic and then she said that they 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:05.520 were funded by George Soros, right, and she's using them 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.400 both through the same purpose. And it's not only the Santists, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.520 and they're right, I mean in Jonathan green Black, that 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.640 head of the d L, I remember, like a few 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:17.080 months ago, said that students of college campuses were Iranian proxies. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.520 And when you use that language, you're basically authorizing military 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.760 counterinsurgency against protesters. It's just it really puts Jews in danger, 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.080 you know, not to mention Palestinians, the Muslims, you know, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:36.120 basically all groups, right, because sure there's occasionally a stray 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:39.600 anti Semitic comment that shows up at protests, because anti 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.559 Semitism is part of our world. There's anti blackness injustice movements, 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.679 antiolgo guts pistory, and anti Semitism. I'm sure, but that's 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.839 no comparison to when you have like Elon Musk, the 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.120 richest person in the world, one of the most powerful 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:55.920 people in the world, saying that Jews are engaged in 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.040 patrid against whites. Right, there's no comparisons in terms of 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.560 power and threat level. So it's really making Jews less safe. 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.280 Yeah, and we also talk about the fact that because 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.319 antisemitic conspiracy theories are such a foundational part of the 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.320 right's form of populism, it's sort of how they explain 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:15.880 of class, anger and energy from the base that there's 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:17.920 really no way to detach it, and so it ends 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.240 up being this foundational piece that even when they talk 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:23.640 about Israel consistently, the way that they've built a connection 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.160 with their base is by trumping up towards Soros or 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.599 Rothschild's conspiracy theories or basically presenting kind of us in 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.199 them populous narrative around theories about globalists and things like that. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.400 So there's really no comparison that we're talking about anti 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.559 simpatism when it shows up on the left versus the 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.719 really deeply inlaid way that it exists on the right. 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.400 And like Ben was saying, right now, we have a 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.719 situation where the right is overwhelmingly united in support of 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.559 Israel and using that as their evidence of support for 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.760 Jews and then pushing sure great replacement theory claims which 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.120 are inherently anti Semitic on the one hand, or really 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.760 kind of mobilizing use in their rhetoric for their own 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.280 kind of geopolitical aims, which again is not based out 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.600 of like a deeply held love for Jews. It's either 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:10.160 built on sort of a Christian Zionist eschatology or just 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.160 simply an opportunistic use of this minority group to sort 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.640 of push their other political values, which itself is kind 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:21.360 of a deeply held antisemitic way of treating the Jewish community. 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.959 And so when we're looking at this, we can't let 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:27.200 the rhetoric that's become to dominate actually stand for how 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.800 we understand anti Semitism because it's been so politically motivated. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.920 Yeah, I mean, as a researcher has it has been 0:13:34.160 --> 0:13:37.000 quite frustrating because I've used to you know, and a 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:38.880 lot of people used to be able to rely on 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.640 some degree on like data aggorates like the ADL and 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.920 putting together like lists of incidents like maps. And as 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.119 I was putting together my piece looking at this opparticularity 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.040 semitism a few months ago, I was, you know, looking 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.040 through this ADL map and the amount of like equivocation 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.760 between just a standard pro Palestine protest protests that I 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.360 was present at, and I was like, this was a 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:07.600 Jewish led protest and having that be equivocated with acts 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.080 of like actual like neo Nazi terrorism as well as 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.400 acts of like genuine antisemitism from people on the left. 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.760 Basically it's resulting in like data poisoning, which makes it 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.400 really hard to actually unpack some of these like larger 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.360 issues that are that are facing both like Jewish people, 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.240 people who are very concerned about Palestine and people who 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.000 take like the threat of like you know, you know, 0:14:29.080 --> 0:14:30.640 far right nationalism quite seriously. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.200 Yeah, I went through all of the ADLs twenty twenty 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:38.080 three anti semitism data with like this project with Jewish currents, 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.160 and the reality is is that the standard they use 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.120 on sort of like left oriented Palestine protests is to 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:49.120 have almost any measure of support for Palestinians or any 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.800 kind of global call for justice in Palestine that is 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:55.040 to facto anti semitism, and like you said, it then 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:58.480 overwhelms the data sort of sort of shuts out other things. 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.280 And the way that they even set up the reporting 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.120 system just privileges those kind of protests, so people it teaches, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.800 for example, they'll partner with the organizations and show people 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.760 how to report, and so they'll end up mass reporting 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.680 these protest events and then under reporting white nationalist incidents 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.160 or like violent incidents. So what you end up seeing 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.760 in their data is that they've actually undercoded white nationalist 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:22.840 events because of the way that they kind of set 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:25.600 up the data, and they don't really track things like 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.120 housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, and ex Jews, those kind of 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:31.040 things really don't fit into their models. So what you 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.760 end up with is this kind of map that just 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.280 privileges people saying from the River to the Sea is 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.120 like this inherently anti Semitic meme, and then undercounts like 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:44.000 what often Jews will report as what makes them feeling unsafe, 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:47.000 comments of work, or actual pressures when buying homes. Things 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.840 like that like that doesn't really show up. You've experiences 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:52.040 of Jews in prison, those don't show up, So you 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.840 end up with this really skewed image on what it is, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.800 where you assume that the left is overwhelming the responsible party, 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.360 and then it actually invisible a pretty growing force on 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.200 the right and even institutionally just like in structures of 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.120 kind of like American culture. So it's really hard then 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.520 to say, like, well, how do I know what's actually 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.120 happening here? The ADL's the largest organization. Every organization then 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.040 uses their data where am I going? It leads you 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.560 in a really big kind of a gap in how 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.040 to understand this happening. So we can look at pretty 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.360 clear evidence that there's a rise in anti Semitism by 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.800 looking at things like street attacks or by looking at 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:29.560 the rhetoric on the right, but it's hard to get 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:31.600 like a clear picture of it because every organization is 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:33.280 that's oriented looking at the left. 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:35.640 Like I was just going to say, like this goes 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.400 way back to the ADL. Like you know, in our book, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.040 we talk about how even in the nineteen seventies and 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.480 the eighties, the eight I was like spying on left 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.880 wing activists as part of their pivot towards seeing the 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.960 most important side of anti Semitism on what they call 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.040 the radical left right. In the nineteen seventies, as global 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:58.240 criticism of Israel's occupation mounted after the nineteen sixty seven, 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.600 you know, Six Day Wars, the ABL like really pivoted 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.760 further from whatever original mission they may have had about 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:10.200 like genuinely countering bigotry to really becoming like Israel defense organizations. 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:12.680 And so in the seventies and eighties, like you saw 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.440 them spying on anti apartheid activists, You saw them attacking 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.000 Arab American you know, professors at universities. You saw them 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.199 spying on ACTA, even left in Jewish groups like New 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.200 Jewish Agenda, you know. And so it's not only Jonathan Greenblatt. 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.320 It's not only since October seventh. The BBL has been 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:33.240 playing this role for a long time, along with a 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.119 whole lot of Christian Zionists and both sides of the 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.320 US political establishment. And yeah, the career saying like the 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.520 stakes are extremely high. The right and the center are 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.880 trying to legislate their definition of anti semitism, to destroy 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.800 free speech and to protect Israel's genocide. 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.000 So the stakes are very high about this right now. 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.680 I think one of the most troubling notions about you 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:07.920 know how those groups like the ADL and others that 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:09.720 are kind of like, like you said, like lobbying for 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.960 legislation and trying to encourage like extreme crackdowns on human 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.040 rights protests and and anti genoside protests, is that this 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.639 is also like materially harms a whole bunch of Jewish 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.600 people who are involved in these protests and in organizing. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.720 You're you're trying to get the FBI to investigate Jewish 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.080 people who are protesting against the genocide. And we saw 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.240 this with the with the campus university protests. You saw this, 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.359 you know, especially at Columbia of like a lot of 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:40.879 a lot of these kids are Jewish people who are 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.760 heavily involved in these protests and in calls to do 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.880 a very extreme crackdown and investigations. It's hard to see 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.040 how that's not just like calling for for our government 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.160 to like further further oppressed these Jewish people who don't 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.320 like agree with one side's opinion on something. 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:00.399 Yeah, yeah, you see it. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.080 You know, in the most kind of ironic twist of 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.920 history in Germany, where you know, the state was once 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.800 in Nazi state, is enforcing some of the most brutal 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.640 crackdowns on the Palestine solidarity speech, and Jews are disproportionately 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.399 represented among the crackdown there. And so you have you know, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.840 German police pulling people with pipos and arresting them, you know, 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.960 shutting down events with Jewish speakers, right so it's really 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.880 like literally policing Jewish thought, right like. We know, there's 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:35.200 over a century of Jewish opposition to Zionism and Jewish 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.680 solidarity with Palestinians, and from the very beginnings of the 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:41.200 Zionist movement, which was originally a Christian movement in Christian 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:43.800 Europe by the way, you know, and we've always had 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:46.760 long traditions of Jews who have resisted it. And so 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:51.040 when the state is legislating saying only like a certain 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:56.159 expression of Jewish identity is valid, that's also anti Semitism, 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:56.560 right like. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:59.639 And we see it, you know, not only from Trump, right. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.040 Trump will always say, oh, Jews who are democrats, Jews 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:06.600 who are quote unqute disloyal to Israel are problematic. You 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.280 also see it from Biden who says, you know, without Israel, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.520 there's not a Jew in the world who's saved right. 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:14.760 So I think, you know, Jews who descend on Israel 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.120 are rapidly becoming enemies in a way of the right, 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.119 you know, and of forces align with it, right, And 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:22.920 I think that's an aspect of of anti Semitism that's 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:24.240 not talked about enough today. 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.280 Yeah, And there's a lot of examples of this too. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.040 During the Labor Party controversy around Corbin and anti Semitism, 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:34.879 it was Jewish members who are overwhelmingly expelled from the party. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.400 I think it's almost like a dozen times more likely 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.880 to face kind of consequences there, right, So, like those 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:42.360 ended up being the centerpiece of it. But I think 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.600 even when you when you broaden out, this ends up 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.119 being the case. And we kind of talk about this 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:49.879 as like a good Jew bad Jew distinction, where like 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:53.280 anti Semitism ends up being mobilized against whatever kind of 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.159 the culture decides is a bad Jew or whatever the 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.600 organization decides it's the bad version of a Jew, the 0:20:57.680 --> 0:20:59.240