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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe.

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Speaker 3: Why isn't thal Joe?

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Speaker 2: Do you know much about MODERNA?

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Speaker 4: Well, I had.

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Speaker 3: Heard the name for maybe a few years, and then

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Speaker 3: they became household name some point in twenty twenty when

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Speaker 3: they were ahead of the race to develop a COVID vaccine.

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Speaker 3: Then it became massive, and then I don't know much

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Speaker 3: beyond that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, this is a company that kind of

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Speaker 2: came out of nowhere during the pandemic, and as you're right,

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Speaker 2: it kind of shot into household name territory. Here's my

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Speaker 2: other question. Do you know what a CFO does?

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Speaker 5: What?

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Speaker 3: That is a great question, actually, because I mean, I

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Speaker 3: guess I would say yes in this sense that I

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Speaker 3: think they're the ones who are sort of watching the financing,

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Speaker 3: helping to make capital allocation decisions, although I imagine that

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Speaker 3: the CEO also has that. I think the CFO is

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Speaker 3: the one primarily involved in putting together the earnings and

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Speaker 3: you know, communicating the finance side, specifically the analyst. But

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Speaker 3: I guess I only partly know what a CFO does

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Speaker 3: to me.

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Speaker 2: The thing I always think when I hear CFO I

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Speaker 2: always think they're the hard ones. Sorry, They're the ones

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Speaker 2: that answer the hard questions on the on the earnings calls.

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Speaker 2: That's what they do.

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Speaker 4: I love that. I think that, yes, that's right.

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Speaker 3: The CEO is like, oh, we get to these great

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Speaker 3: products and blah blah. And then like someone asked a

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Speaker 3: really technical question about like well if your borrow will

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Speaker 3: get this above so far and margins and they're like,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to bring the CFO in the answer this.

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Speaker 2: Then yeah, exactly. Well, I'm pleased to say today we do,

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Speaker 2: in fact have the perfect guest to answer the question

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Speaker 2: of what is modern and also what does a CFO

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Speaker 2: actually do. We are going to be speaking to the

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Speaker 2: CFO of MODERNA, Jamie Mack. Jamie, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for coming on on thoughts.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Tracy and Joe, thank you for having me. It's

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Speaker 5: a pleasure to be here with you.

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Speaker 2: So maybe just to begin, can you give us the

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Speaker 2: sort of elevator pitch summary of what it is that

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Speaker 2: MODERNA does and full disclosure, I was in Hong Kong

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Speaker 2: for a few years of the pandemic, so I missed

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Speaker 2: a lot of the vaccine conversation here in the US.

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Speaker 2: There was a very different vaccine conversation that was happening

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Speaker 2: in Hong Kong and in mainland China at the time.

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Speaker 2: But what is it that you actually do and how

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Speaker 2: is it that you have become a household name in

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Speaker 2: a relatively few short years.

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Speaker 5: Well sure, so, first I found your introduction quite entertaining.

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Speaker 5: The CFO actually in our business because we are very

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Speaker 5: much a science business, which I'll get into.

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Speaker 4: It's actually our president and CEO.

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Speaker 5: That get the really tough questions. But I get to

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Speaker 5: my own share as well, which we can get into.

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Speaker 3: But the CEO has to answer the tough biology questions.

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Speaker 4: Well, he's quite good at it. He's he was part

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Speaker 4: you employee number one and.

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Speaker 5: Has been here and built this business for thirteen years

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Speaker 5: so and he's got a science background, so he's quite

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Speaker 5: good at it. And then our president, Stephen Hoague is

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Speaker 5: a doctor by trade, so obviously they answered most of

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Speaker 5: the scientific questions.

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Speaker 4: But so Maderna is obviously known.

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Speaker 5: Due to how we help the global community with COVID,

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Speaker 5: but it's really much more than that. It is a

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Speaker 5: platform company revolving around MR and a which really makes

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Speaker 5: the proteins in a body, and those proteins can help

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Speaker 5: either fight infectious diseases and prevent against any kind of

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Speaker 5: infectious disease, or be a therapy, and we can get

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Speaker 5: into the segments that we're in, but it can be

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Speaker 5: in oncology, it can be a rare disease. And we

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Speaker 5: actually believed, and that was the principal belief in the

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Speaker 5: company is if this platform can work, it's going to

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Speaker 5: be able. Since it's part of your natural body, it's

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Speaker 5: going to be able to help solve many different therapeutic

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Speaker 5: areas in the body.

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Speaker 4: And so that's a little bit about Maderna.

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Speaker 5: In over the last thirteen years, we've built a pipeline

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Speaker 5: of forty five drug candidates. Obviously we're known for covid,

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Speaker 5: but also in other respiratory diseases. We hope to launch

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Speaker 5: our second drug this year, RSV, which became pretty well

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Speaker 5: known last year as it had a pretty significant spike,

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Speaker 5: but also in flu and other respiratory diseases. And then

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Speaker 5: in oncology we've got an exciting cancer therapy that we

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Speaker 5: are excited about rare diseases and other latent diseases. So

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Speaker 5: that's a little bit about Maderna. We've been around since

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Speaker 5: twenty eleven. We've got almost six thousand employees. We're based

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Speaker 5: out of Cambridge, Massachusetts, but have.

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Speaker 4: Some facilities all across the globe, and we've got quite

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Speaker 4: an exciting pipeline ahead of us. That was excellent.

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Speaker 3: All right, Now, what does the CFO or you specifically?

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Speaker 3: What is your job within the company?

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Speaker 5: So my CFO role is really not that different than

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Speaker 5: many other CFOs. It's just you know, in a different space.

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Speaker 5: And I think there's principally four different areas. One is

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Speaker 5: the foundation, which is controllership, so that's accurate books and records.

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Speaker 5: That's safeguarding our assets, and that's got to be foundational and.

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Speaker 4: An absolute given.

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Speaker 5: The second is allocating capital, and we can talk about

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Speaker 5: that some more, but what is the envelope where we

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Speaker 5: going to spend it? How much goes into our investment

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Speaker 5: in our R and D pipeline, how much goes into capital.

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Speaker 4: Expenditure and S G and A.

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Speaker 5: The third is to support decision making across the company

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Speaker 5: and train our teams to understand how to measure return

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Speaker 5: on investment and how to think through decisions that are

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Speaker 5: made every single day, thousands of decisions across the company

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Speaker 5: every single day. And then the last is stakeholder management

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Speaker 5: and with whether it's investors, employees, the board of directors, customers, partners, suppliers.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 5: That's how I think about it, which really isn't too

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Speaker 5: different from my prior role. Is it's a CFO of

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Speaker 5: a different company or in my opinion, and many of

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Speaker 5: the CFOs that are out there, how they operate every day.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned that the CFO role is kind of

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Speaker 2: uniform across companies, but I have to imagine there are

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Speaker 2: some aspects of the pharma industry that make it a

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Speaker 2: little bit different, and one of them has to be

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Speaker 2: I guess the lead times in developing new treatments and

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Speaker 2: new medicines, and perhaps the risk as well. So you

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Speaker 2: might spend ten years developing this one thing and then

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Speaker 2: you find out at the very end that it has

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Speaker 2: an awful side effect or that the regulators aren't going

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Speaker 2: to approve it. How does that aspect of the business,

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Speaker 2: that uniqueness, feed into the CFO role.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you're absolutely right, And maybe just to talk about

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Speaker 5: that process we call it, you know, we take a

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Speaker 5: drug from pure research to kind of pre clinical which

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Speaker 5: doesn't go into a human body, and you're kind of

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Speaker 5: testing how it works in the animals, and then it

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Speaker 5: gets into an IMD process or a new drug candidate,

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Speaker 5: and there are phase one, phase two, phase three, and

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Speaker 5: you're right, I mean, the probability is success from basic

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Speaker 5: research all the way through not only getting it launched

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Speaker 5: with the FDA in the United States as an example,

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Speaker 5: but there's healthcare regulators all across the globe, and.

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Speaker 4: Then commercial success as well.

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Speaker 5: So there's a ton of risk that goes into it,

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Speaker 5: and that's what we spend our time doing. And we

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Speaker 5: as a platform company believe that. You know, we've been

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Speaker 5: studying the science of mr anda in different verticals. A

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Speaker 5: vertical might be respiratory vaccines, as I mentioned, and if

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Speaker 5: we know that our mr and a platform can work

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Speaker 5: with COVID, then we have a high conviction that it

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Speaker 5: can work with RSP and a high conviction that it

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Speaker 5: can work with through another.

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Speaker 4: Respiratory and so we derisk that throughout the process.

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Speaker 5: We do it in basic research, we do it in

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Speaker 5: pre clinical, we do it in phase one trials, phase

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Speaker 5: two trials, and all those trials are just more patients.

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Speaker 5: So you might start with literally ten to fifteen patients

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Speaker 5: in phase one and then.

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Speaker 4: A respiratory trial.

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Speaker 5: Our RSP trial for phase three was thirty seven thousand patients.

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Speaker 5: And you just continue to assess what is the risk

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Speaker 5: and what is the capabilities, And so that's what we

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Speaker 5: spend a ton of time doing when we think about

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Speaker 5: allocating capital to our pipeline and our next drug candidates.

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Speaker 3: Talk to us a little bit more about that. I

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Speaker 3: think you said you had forty or forty something various

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Speaker 3: candidates in the pipeline. Obviously it'd be nice to have

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Speaker 3: unlimited money and work on all of them. You know,

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Speaker 3: when you are thinking about capital allocation, R and D allocation,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, Like, what are the factors that go into

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Speaker 3: making these decisions?

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Speaker 5: Sure, yeah, there's a lot, but I'll kind of summarize

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Speaker 5: it into a few, which is getting back to that

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Speaker 5: sense of risk and comparing it to our capabilities. So

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Speaker 5: I mentioned we have higher conviction and respiratory vaccines, so

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Speaker 5: therefore it's much easier to place bets and further dollars

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Speaker 5: behind respiratory vaccines. We are currently hoping to de risk

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Speaker 5: our latent vaccine therapeutic area. We've recently de risked our

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Speaker 5: oncology area, which we call individualized antigen therapy, which is

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Speaker 5: a mouthful, but in essence it helps stimulate key.

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Speaker 4: Sales to attack cancer.

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Speaker 5: And so when we look through it, we say, okay,

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Speaker 5: what is the mRNA capabilities? Have we derisked this area?

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Speaker 5: And therefore, you know, every step of the way, allocate

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Speaker 5: more dollars.

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Speaker 4: So that's number one. Number two is we look at

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Speaker 4: the size of the opportunity.

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Speaker 5: So this really isn't any different than any business case

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Speaker 5: for any company in any industry.

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Speaker 4: You know, respiratory vaccines is a very large market.

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Speaker 5: We think it's a thirty billion dollar market between flue, covid,

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Speaker 5: rsv SO, and there's only a few players, and there's

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Speaker 5: a very high barrier to entry because you have to

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Speaker 5: test so many patients and those trials are quite expensive.

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Speaker 5: Third is what's the competition and what's our commercial capabilities?

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Speaker 5: Will we be successful? Will we have something that differentiates

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Speaker 5: our product versus another product? And then the fourth is timing,

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Speaker 5: particularly when you're we're still a relatively young biotech company.

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Speaker 4: Thirteen years old is not that old in the grand

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Speaker 4: scheme of.

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Speaker 5: Things, and so therefore we have to understand Okay, what's

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Speaker 5: our cash balance? You know, how much revenue and profit

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Speaker 5: are we going to be generating in the next few years.

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Speaker 5: And therefore we want to turn over the portfolio to

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Speaker 5: not just be a COVID company, but to be a

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Speaker 5: multi drug company in various different areas. And so therefore

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Speaker 5: we look at, well, is this going to start generating

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Speaker 5: revenue in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six, or some

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Speaker 5: of these won't be till twenty thirty five. So we

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Speaker 5: have to kind of balance all those things to make

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Speaker 5: sure that we have a sustainable company and bring the

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Speaker 5: most drugs to market with the highest probability of success.

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Speaker 2: So one thing that always interests me in these types

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Speaker 2: of conversations is the decision on allocating resources. And we're

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Speaker 2: talking about okay, thirteen years old, still relatively small in

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Speaker 2: the grand scheme of large pharma companies. But you have

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, you have a decent amount of money,

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Speaker 2: it seems, how do you decide where to put that

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Speaker 2: money to work? And I guess how granular do those

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Speaker 2: decisions actually get. Is there like a line item for

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Speaker 2: R and D expenses every year and it's just like

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Speaker 2: a big bundle and then there are people who are

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Speaker 2: specifically dedicated to dividing that up or would you, as CFO,

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Speaker 2: be like, I'm going to give X amount to this

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Speaker 2: project and why amount to this other developmental treatment.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So at the high level, we work with the

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Speaker 5: executive team and the board to understand what is the

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Speaker 5: envelope of capital will give to R and D in

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Speaker 5: that example, because we also have to give capital to SGNA,

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Speaker 5: We have to give capital to capital expenditures, and historically

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Speaker 5: over the last couple of years, we had bought back shares,

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Speaker 5: although we've stopped buying backshares at this point because we

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Speaker 5: primarily want to.

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Speaker 4: Invest in this pipeline.

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Speaker 5: So after that, so once you size the envelope in

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Speaker 5: terms of, Okay, here's how much I'm willing to spend.

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Speaker 5: As an example, in twenty twenty four, we think we'll

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Speaker 5: spend approximately four and a half billion dollars. So then

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Speaker 5: the next step is, Okay, you have forty five drug candidates,

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Speaker 5: which ones why? Which is what I just kind of

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Speaker 5: talked through in terms of capabilities and the size of opportunities.

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Speaker 5: But just to maybe give a little bit more flavor,

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Speaker 5: a drug is not so simple, even COVID as an example,

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Speaker 5: you know, there's different patient populations. So there's the immunal compromised,

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Speaker 5: there's age sixty plus, there's age fifty to fifty nine,

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Speaker 5: there's age eighteen to forty nine, there's you know, I

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Speaker 5: think six to eighteen. And then there's pediatrics as well,

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Speaker 5: which all take a different level of testing and regulatory

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Speaker 5: oversight because there are different types of patients and the

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Speaker 5: bodies react in different ways, and the regulators want you

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Speaker 5: to study different things. So a lot of the actual

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Speaker 5: details is under Okay, yes, we've said we're going to

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Speaker 5: go with an RSV vaccine, where are we going to

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Speaker 5: start and how much will that cost?

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Speaker 4: And right now we've said age is sixty and over.

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Speaker 5: But then we might look at pediatrics because RSPA is

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Speaker 5: often hitting quite materially or significantly younger population. And so

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Speaker 5: that's kind of the next level of allocation, which is

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Speaker 5: you size the envelope, You then pick a program the

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Speaker 5: You then say which patient populations or indications are you

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Speaker 5: going to go after. Another example is oncology. So I

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Speaker 5: talked about this product that we have and we are

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Speaker 5: starting with adjuvant melanoma, and because adjuvant melanoma really in

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Speaker 5: immunooncology really seems to work quite well, and we are

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Speaker 5: kind of bundled with immunooncology and stimulating it even more.

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Speaker 4: And so we started there and it's you know, right now.

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Speaker 5: The data that we've released is quite positive over three

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Speaker 5: years and improves the life of a patient's success in

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Speaker 5: terms of recurrence or death by fifty percent, which is

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Speaker 5: outstanding in terms of cancer. And then you've got to

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Speaker 5: figure out, well, there's you know, loads of different cancer types,

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Speaker 5: where will this product work best? And that's what we

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Speaker 5: try to determine every single day as we get more

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Speaker 5: and more specific underneath that envelope the capital.

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Speaker 3: What is the process by which I mean I have

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Speaker 3: to imagine that with e within each internal candidate, the

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Speaker 3: various scientists, the various teams, like they probably want more

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Speaker 3: for their the specific thing that they're working on. What

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Speaker 3: is this sort of internal process? Is it a sort

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Speaker 3: of is it an internal lobbying process? That's sort of

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Speaker 3: what I imagine my head where they come to you

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Speaker 3: and they're like, look, we believe that we can do this,

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Speaker 3: and if we could increase the R and D on

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Speaker 3: this thing, then we believe that we can maybe get

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Speaker 3: it to market or get to the next stage of

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Speaker 3: trials faster than X. Like, what is sort of your

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Speaker 3: internal process for working with the various champions of different

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Speaker 3: potential products where they make the case that they could

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Speaker 3: use money in a productive way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: So, first and I tell every industry, we could certainly

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Speaker 5: spend a lot more than four and a half billion dollars,

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Speaker 5: and that is a wonderful thing, because the minute we

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Speaker 5: run out of ideas and pipelines, we're in trouble and

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Speaker 5: we'll stop growing.

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Speaker 4: So it is definitely a hot debate, I would say,

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Speaker 4: in terms of where we're going to allocate our capital.

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Speaker 4: But let me just give you maybe I'd say three

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Speaker 4: processes that we run. Great.

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Speaker 5: So, first off, we have twice a year a look

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Speaker 5: at our entire portfolio and we call it a strategy

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Speaker 5: review to understand, Okay, let's make these decisions, given the envelope,

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Speaker 5: the capital we have, let's prioritize these things and we

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Speaker 5: pull together.

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Speaker 4: It's extremely cross functional. It is even within R and D.

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Speaker 5: There are many different functions within R and D, and

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Speaker 5: we bring in all of those people that are product

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Speaker 5: specialists or epidemiologists or development specialists, et cetera. We bring

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Speaker 5: in the finance team to obviously run the financials and

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Speaker 5: understand the reward, the commercial team to understand the size

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Speaker 5: of the opportunity, and we debate and say, okay, strategically,

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Speaker 5: as a company, if we want to be this year,

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Speaker 5: we think we'll be four billion in sales. If we

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Speaker 5: want to get to I'll just make it up a number,

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Speaker 5: say ten billion dollars in sales by twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 5: And if that's a priority, that's not the only priority,

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Speaker 5: but that is a priority to say, okay, let's have

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Speaker 5: that lens on it.

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Speaker 4: Number one. Number two, here's another lens.

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Speaker 5: We want to diversify our revenue streams, so we don't

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Speaker 5: want to be solely a respiratory business. So we've got

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Speaker 5: to make sure we are investing in other latent areas,

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Speaker 5: latent disease areas or oncology that we also want to

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Speaker 5: bring to market, and we have those strategic and that

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Speaker 5: kind of sets the foundation.

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Speaker 4: Then. So that's process one that happens twice.

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Speaker 5: A year, and we figure out which products we want

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Speaker 5: to fund in theory, and that's what we start co

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Speaker 5: operating too. But then there's underlying research and clinical trials

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Speaker 5: that are going on every single day, and there's report

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Speaker 5: outs and you might get different data, different answers that

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Speaker 5: actually changes that and that is a very well governed

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Speaker 5: process that we call a stage gay process. And as

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Speaker 5: an example, you know, I myself have to approve whether

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Speaker 5: we go to a phase three trial because those are

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Speaker 5: very expensive, as I mentioned earlier, so you know, but

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Speaker 5: there are gates into even before it gets into the

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Speaker 5: clinical there's gates in the research area, in pre clinical area,

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Speaker 5: and then there's gates before you go to phase one,

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Speaker 5: phase two, phase three, and those you know, we have

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Speaker 5: a theory based on the strategy of what we wanted

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Speaker 5: to invest in, but new data.

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Speaker 4: Comes out and you have to adjust to it.

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Speaker 5: So I'd say that's kind of the second process that

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Speaker 5: is highly governed. So you have this top level strategy,

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Speaker 5: then you have actual data that's coming through that is

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Speaker 5: well governed. And then the last thing is particularly on

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Speaker 5: how much we're going to spend and whether we go

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Speaker 5: and spend more on these phase three trials. We actually

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Speaker 5: take it to a subcommittee of the board, so the

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Speaker 5: Board of Directors, which we have some scientists and doctors

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Speaker 5: that are on our board and oversee it and have

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Speaker 5: a lot of experience also govern Yeah, we think it's worse.

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Speaker 5: We get it, we get the strategy. If it's into

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Speaker 5: our strategy, we understand the risks, and we think you

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Speaker 5: should move forward. So those are kind of three different

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Speaker 5: processes in terms of how we govern our product strategies.

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Speaker 2: Where does the money actually come from? And I realized

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Speaker 2: like maybe maybe there's some obvious answers here. You are

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Speaker 2: a publicly traded company, but this is a really capital

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Speaker 2: intensive business. And I was looking on the Bloomberg terminal earlier.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like you have any bonds, which is

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Speaker 2: kind of unusual nowadays. Where does that like funding mix

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Speaker 2: actually come from.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so I'll chase the answer that question in the industry,

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Speaker 5: but also the specific to us because we're a little

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Speaker 5: bit different. Sure, so specific to us, we actually, because

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Speaker 5: of COVID and how successful our vaccine was to help

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Speaker 5: support the global population, we're actually sitting on thirteen billion

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Speaker 5: dollars in cash. That is very unique to a biotech company.

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Speaker 5: So we are quite fortunate. And as an example, we

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Speaker 5: said this year we're going to actually burn through four

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Speaker 5: billion dollars in cash. So we believe in this platform

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Speaker 5: so much that we need to advance the next set

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Speaker 5: of pipeline of drug candidates.

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Speaker 4: And we have a plan all the way for the

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Speaker 4: next three.

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Speaker 5: To five years that we're actually going to go from

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Speaker 5: thirteen billion to nine billion in the year twenty twenty

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Speaker 5: four because we think it's the right thing to do.

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Speaker 5: And then we said we're going to do it a

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Speaker 5: little bit again, that we're going to burn another two

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Speaker 5: to three billion in twenty twenty five before breaking even

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty six as we'd launch new drugs. So

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Speaker 5: that's a bit unique in the biotech world, I would

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Speaker 5: say broadly though for the sector, there are various avenues

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Speaker 5: that obviously public investors, capital markets, like you said, there

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Speaker 5: are some government projects with Barta Covid as an example,

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Speaker 5: the US government helped fund some of the COVID research

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Speaker 5: and development of our product, and so there are different

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Speaker 5: government agencies across the globe that you can tap into.

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Speaker 4: There are other companies.

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Speaker 5: So before we were you know, before Covid, we had

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Speaker 5: no we had no products that had ever been approved,

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Speaker 5: and so we started in twenty eleven and in twenty

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Speaker 5: sixteen we actually went to a different company, company called Merk.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure you've heard of them, and they actually helped

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Speaker 5: fund our oncology product because it is in conjunction with

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Speaker 5: their product k Trudea. So that's another outlet for capital

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Speaker 5: that you can part with a collaboration where you know,

400
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Speaker 5: a company like Mark gave us I think two hundred

401
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Speaker 5: and fifty million dollars back in twenty sixteen to launch

402
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Speaker 5: this product and advance the science that is now so

403
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Speaker 5: fruitful come twenty twenty four. And then the last one

404
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Speaker 5: is just foundations, and we tap into foundations as well,

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Speaker 5: not as much now that we have a fair amount

406
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Speaker 5: of funding ourselves, but Bell and Melinda Gates as an example,

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Speaker 5: we were working with them on certain infectious disease vaccines.

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Speaker 5: So those are kind of the areas. So it's capital markets,

409
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Speaker 5: it's the government, it's other companies and collaborations that might

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Speaker 5: fund it, and then there's foundations as well.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about the role of the government. One of

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Speaker 3: the extraordinary things, and you know, Operation Warp Speed was

413
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Speaker 3: sort of this incredible endeavor that involved upfront money and

414
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Speaker 3: also advanced purchasing agreement so that once you got the

415
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Speaker 3: vaccine to market that you had guaranteed sales talk to

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Speaker 3: us just about the math of Operation Warp Speed, what

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Speaker 3: it meant for Maderi NA, and then specifically the power

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Speaker 3: of the advanced purchase agreements and whether that is a

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Speaker 3: model that you see being replicated going forwards, like a

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Speaker 3: sort of a way of de risking the entire process.

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Speaker 4: Sure.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, as you and I spoke beforehand, Joe, I wasn't

423
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Speaker 5: here during COVID. I joined the company at the end

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Speaker 5: of twenty twenty two, in September of twenty two, so

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Speaker 5: I've been here for eighteen months, so I obviously am

426
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Speaker 5: aware of what went on, but I don't know all

427
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Speaker 5: the intimate details. So I'll give you my general opinion

428
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Speaker 5: and impression, and you know it works. Me. I forget

429
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Speaker 5: the exact money, but I think it might be in

430
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Speaker 5: the range of a billion dollars. Don't quote me on that.

431
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Speaker 5: It's in our disclosures. You can actually pull it up

432
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Speaker 5: and get the exact numbers. But it was not insignificant.

433
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Speaker 5: And I think this is an example of a terrific

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Speaker 5: public private partnership that actually did great for the world.

435
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Speaker 5: And to put that into perspective, and it wasn't just

436
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Speaker 5: the funding. By the way, we can get into it.

437
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Speaker 5: There was so much help throughout the entire process in

438
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Speaker 5: twenty twenty in many different areas, shippings, et cetera. A

439
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Speaker 5: lot of red tape to cut through, but it actually

440
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 5: proves that in one year we went from COVID that

441
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 5: came out, we identified the vaccine in two days, and.

442
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 4: We got it approved from market in eleven months.

443
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 5: That is unparalleled in the pharmaceutical biotech industry. And so

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,199
Speaker 5: it shows you the art of the possible. There is

445
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 5: good reason why things are regulated because there's safety concerns

446
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 5: and we have to do that, but it also shows

447
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 5: you that you can accelerate this timeline if you cut

448
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 5: through some red tape for something that has been very powerful,

449
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 5: very safe and effective and really has changed the world

450
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 5: in a very rapid way. So I'm a huge believer

451
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 5: in the success of that. In terms of the APA SEAH,

452
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 5: I mean to think about our situation. We had zero

453
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 5: revenue and we were asked to go invest literally hundreds

454
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 5: and billions of dollars to get this over the hump.

455
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 5: It was a make or break decision for us. I mean,

456
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 5: we were sitting there going we were public company. You

457
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 5: could run out of cash and a heartbeat, and so

458
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 5: we you know, we needed a partner to help take

459
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 5: that risk, and ultimately it worked out and worked very well.

460
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 4: So the APAs to your second part of your question

461
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 4: there were.

462
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 5: Very important because we had to know that if we're

463
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 5: going to go invest all this money and in our infrastructure,

464
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 5: forget about the research and development, we have to bring

465
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 5: on six different manufacturing partners across the globe. We had

466
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 5: to go make purchase commitments for inventory in the billions

467
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,400
Speaker 5: of dollars with part you know, to say, hey, we

468
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 5: need we need to make a lot of COVID doses

469
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 5: over a billion on that time period that we made

470
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 5: a billion doses as this and we had that was a.

471
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:36,920
Speaker 4: Lot of risk.

472
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 5: We needed to know that we were going to get

473
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 5: some return otherwise, you know, we were going to turn

474
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 5: upside down.

475
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: So APAs were important.

476
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 5: I believe that a partnership can work quite well, and

477
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 5: in this example, I think it works extremely well. I

478
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 5: get that there needs to be regulation for many different reasons,

479
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 5: but I think that shows you the art of the possible,

480
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 5: both in public private partnerships as well as what can

481
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 5: happen when you really try to expectegulatory process here's.

482
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: One thing I always wonder when it comes to CFOs

483
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: and their sort of daily life. But Joe has a

484
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: line that I think it actually came from Neil Data

485
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 2: and you co opted it. But the stock market is

486
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: not the economy. But it's not not the economy. And

487
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: when share prices go up, that means there's more availability

488
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: of funding for companies in general. So first of all,

489
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: how closely do you watch the moderna stock price? Is

490
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: that like the first thing you look at when you

491
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 2: come into the office every morning.

492
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 4: I mean I certainly monitor it quite a bit. Yes,

493
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 4: I do. It's important. I mean it's one of the

494
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 4: key stakeholders.

495
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 5: And one that I know most importantly own, which is

496
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 5: our investors.

497
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 4: So I have to make sure I'm watching that. And

498
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 4: so yes, I actually watch it in a fair amount.

499
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: And then okay, what do you think when it starts

500
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: going down? Is there like a thought process in your

501
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 2: head that says, oh, we need to think about specific

502
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: things that we could be doing to boost shares or

503
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: do you start thinking, well, you know, there are other

504
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: things going on in the economy, interest rates are going up.

505
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 2: That sort of thing. I just wonder, you know, put

506
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 2: us inside your mind for a second. As a CFO,

507
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,879
Speaker 2: when you look at a share price, what is happening

508
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 2: in your head?

509
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah? I try.

510
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 5: I try to assess for really rapid movement, what is

511
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 5: going on? You know, day to day, stock's going to

512
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 5: jump all that, you know, a little bit up, a

513
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 5: little bit down, a little bit.

514
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 4: That happens all the time.

515
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 5: So I try to assess, Okay, Number one, is it

516
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 5: a specific event for us? A news item, whether it's

517
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 5: a regulatory update on a clinical trial, or whether we

518
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 5: give you know, guidance on financials or whatever it might be.

519
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 4: Is it a specific event? Did we do it well?

520
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 4: You know, we take that quite.

521
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 5: Seriously, and did we communicate it well where we clear

522
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 5: do people get it to investors get it? And even

523
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 5: if they get it, you know, if it's bad news,

524
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 5: the stock may go down, but they understand it and

525
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 5: there's a natural you know, implication to that. Or if

526
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 5: the stock goes up, they are clearly understanding the message

527
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 5: of what we're trying to say.

528
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 4: So I try to understand Number one, is there a

529
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 4: specific event for us?

530
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 5: The everyday events in terms of just the global economy

531
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 5: and interest rates worry me less. We're fortunate as I

532
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 5: mentioned to have thirteen billion dollars in cash.

533
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 4: We don't take it lightly. We try to understand what that.

534
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 5: Means for us over the coming years in terms of, Okay,

535
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 5: what's going to happen from a demand perspective, or you know,

536
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 5: the cash in the bank will return interest, And so

537
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 5: we obviously are cognizant on the of the implications on

538
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 5: our company, but overall, we're I think we spend the

539
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 5: most time focusing on our investors understanding the long term

540
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 5: opportunity for our company.

541
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 4: And I think that's what's critical for many companies. And

542
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 4: it is hard to.

543
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 5: Have investors really look at the long term, and you know,

544
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 5: different portfolio managers, investors have a different view on what

545
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 5: is long term, whether that's twenty four months, five years,

546
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 5: ten years, And we try to make sure that people.

547
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 4: Understand what is the opportunity ahead and.

548
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 5: Actually if they are saying it back to us, then

549
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 5: at least they understand it and they might make a

550
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 5: different decision, might wait for it, you know, and we

551
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 5: try to understand what does that mean in terms of

552
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 5: their buying behavior.

553
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: But that's what we.

554
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 5: Spend the most time doing, is to under just make

555
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 5: sure our investors understand our long term strategy and do

556
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 5: they believe in where we're going.

557
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 3: It does seem like for companies in some areas that

558
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 3: when a stock is moving lower or maybe higher, but

559
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: when this dog is moving lower, that there is an

560
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: impulse to course correct in some way. And so you

561
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 3: saw this, for example, I think within big tech, where

562
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: we saw this pretty big sell off in twenty twenty

563
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: two and a bunch of companies seem to get the

564
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 3: message like, oh, you know what, we really need to

565
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 3: slow our hiring, or maybe we shouldn't bet the entire

566
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 3: company on virtual reality goggles, and we need to cut

567
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: our research in this area. That there is this message

568
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 3: about something, and then you see the layoffs and they're like, look,

569
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: we've done much better about reducing our cash burned, et cetera.

570
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: Do you take a signal I mean, I get there

571
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,959
Speaker 3: are certain things that are out of your control that

572
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: you have a long term message that you want to

573
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: tell the shareholders. But do you take a signal from

574
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 3: larger moves in the market that say, look, the investors

575
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: want to see X, and we need to course correct

576
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: in some way or another in order to align our goals.

577
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 4: That's a great question.

578
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 5: So I think, if there's a big move, and we

579
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 5: should be doing this all the time, but there's something

580
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 5: to listen to, and so I'll just take myself out

581
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 5: of Maderna. I mean, if you're a CFO and your

582
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 5: stock goes down twenty percent, that is a substantial amount

583
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 5: of investors saying it is less valuable. Something's going on,

584
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 5: And I think what you have to listen for is

585
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 5: do we already know that or is it something that

586
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 5: we really have We got to think differently about. So

587
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 5: is our revenue line not going to be what we

588
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 5: think it's going to be? And the investors are ahead

589
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 5: of us because they see something in the marketplace that

590
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 5: is changing. And if that's the case, then sometimes I

591
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 5: mean I take our conversations with investors as a two

592
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 5: way learning.

593
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 4: I learned from them.

594
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 5: They give me their thoughts on what they think that

595
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 5: where the market's going, where we're positioned, how we're positioned,

596
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 5: how successful they think we're going to be, just as

597
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 5: much as I try to tell them our view. And

598
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 5: so it is a two way learning. And especially when

599
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 5: there's a huge market move or significant market move, they're.

600
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 4: Telling you something.

601
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 5: The question of what you have to sift through is

602
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 5: did we already know that and therefore just stay the

603
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 5: course on strategy, or is it something that, hey, we

604
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 5: might need to think differently about and perhaps we're wrong

605
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 5: on one of our assumptions. So that's how I deal with,

606
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 5: you know, particularly significant moves in the share price.

607
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,239
Speaker 2: So in the course of prepping for this interview, I

608
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: was doing, you know, some casual research into MODERNA and

609
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 2: pharma in general, and I stumbled on this article from

610
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: Science I think it was from March twenty twenty, so

611
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: right in the heart of the pandemic, and it opens

612
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: with a discussion of the gartment hype cycle and this

613
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: idea that you know, people get really excited about a

614
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: new technology. You see share prices of these tech companies

615
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 2: go through the roof, and then there's some adjustment process

616
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: or reality kind of sets in the shar's fall, and

617
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: then slowly there's a recovery as people kind of enter

618
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 2: realistic productivity and use of these new technologies. And looking

619
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: at the MODERNA share price since March of twenty twenty,

620
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: it really does look like a gartment hype cycle. Like

621
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 2: if you're going to choose a textbook example, it's kind

622
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: of this, So I guess my question is, like, how

623
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 2: do you balance people getting really enthusiastic about new technological

624
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: breakthroughs and all these new treatments we have in the pipeline.

625
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think you're working on this specifically,

626
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: but GLP one weight loss drugs are obviously something that's

627
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: kind of burst in to the public consciousness recently. How

628
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: do you balance that excitement and the hype versus like

629
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: the reality of putting these in production and again, going

630
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 2: back to the timelines that you were discussing the idea

631
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: of long term investment, like, don't get too excited. It's

632
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: going to take a while for these to enter the market,

633
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: and then it's going to potentially take even longer for

634
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: them to filter through in an efficient way.

635
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 5: I think in those cases, I don't know every single case,

636
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 5: but I'm a little closer to the Maderna case. Let's say,

637
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 5: I think it shows the art of the possible, and

638
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 5: I think people understand what could be from Maderna. And

639
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 5: to your point, maybe there's a little over exuberance at

640
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 5: a particular period and time, and I think that's where

641
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 5: I go to what we should be doing, which is

642
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 5: to not tell people that that's still not a real

643
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 5: possibility someday. Well, let's go through the timeline, let's go

644
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 5: through the risks and opportunities, and let's walk it through

645
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 5: our you know, as best to our ability in a

646
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 5: public way.

647
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 4: Here's what we believe and what.

648
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 5: Could happen when and after that, investors have to model

649
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 5: their own cashlowds. That's what a stock price is is

650
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 5: ultimately what they think the company's worth from.

651
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 4: A cashloaw perspective. So I think it's a delicate.

652
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 5: Balance of we still believe what MODERNA can be and

653
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 5: it should be someday in terms of being able to

654
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 5: solve so many therapeutic areas as a platform company that

655
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 5: can run the same technology through a manufacturing plant, and

656
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 5: so therefore the marginal cost of arguing with drugs should

657
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 5: go down substantially.

658
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 4: But there's a timeline for that.

659
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: There are regulators, and there's a timeline, and there's only

660
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 5: so much in development as expensive, and so we try

661
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 5: to be as transparent as possible with that, And I

662
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 5: don't know, I guess that's my belief is we sh

663
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 5: just to always make sure people understand what could happen someday,

664
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 5: but also give them the best assumptions possible.

665
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 4: To the best of your ability over the relative near term.

666
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,239
Speaker 3: Maderna is a according to the Bloomberg right now, I'm

667
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: looking at a thirty seven billion dollar company. But obviously

668
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 3: this sort of accelerated development of the COVID vaccine, allowing

669
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: life to get back to normal in a maybe a

670
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: period of time that was much shorter than people expected.

671
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: You know, obviously orders of magnitude more valuable to the

672
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: global economy than perhaps what Maderna specifically accrued. And I

673
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 3: guess that's why you know, we had Operation warp Speed.

674
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 3: It certainly seems like in theory you could say the

675
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 3: same thing about other vaccines, other pharma products that are

676
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 3: in the works. You know, I don't know how much

677
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: money is lost to the flu every year, but it

678
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 3: would be probably very great for the economy if no

679
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 3: one got the flu anymore, or colds or any other

680
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: sort of sicknesses that disrupted our life. Do you think

681
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: like I've been a little surprised, you know that after

682
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: the Operation Warp Speed experience, we haven't seen more announcements

683
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: like hey, let's do an operation warp speed for X

684
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: or Y, or maybe they have been and I just

685
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: missed the stories like have you seen any follow up

686
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: on like, Hey, this model did something powerful, Let's do

687
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: it again, let's derisk it, Let's have the government step

688
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: in with this investment and guaranteed purchase agreements. Like have

689
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: people taken lessons from Operation Warp Speed and applied it

690
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 3: potentially to other areas?

691
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 5: I think you see some minor examples of that. But

692
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 5: I also just think that COVID was such a significant

693
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 5: event that affected the entire global population that it warranted

694
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 5: both you know, resources from a time perspective as well

695
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 5: as money perspective. And that's not to say that these

696
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 5: other ones don't, but it just it was a crisis.

697
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 5: And so you know, there are areas in oncology that

698
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 5: I think there's additional funding going behind.

699
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 4: I think people learning. Okay, rare disease, I hear a

700
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 4: lot of talk.

701
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 5: Again, I am not a scientist, I am not a regulator,

702
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 5: So take it with a grain of salt. But rare

703
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 5: disease as an example, it's rare by nature, so it's

704
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 5: difficult to say it's difficult to actually get enough patients

705
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 5: in data to progress fast because of the regulatory processes,

706
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 5: and I think the regulators acknowledge that and say, hey,

707
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 5: if I only have I'm going to make it up

708
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 5: one hundred patients in the United States. This might take

709
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 5: ten years, but I can already tell in two years

710
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 5: in a phase one trial it's making a significant impact

711
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 5: on fifteen patients. And these are life threatening diseases. It's

712
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:26,919
Speaker 5: worth taking the risk.

713
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 4: So it might not be at.

714
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 6: The same speed and emphasism as operation warp speed, but

715
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 6: I have seen a couple areas in oncology and rare disease,

716
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 6: and maybe that's quite honestly, that's where I am personally

717
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 6: spending time, so I see those things, and maybe it's

718
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 6: happening in other areas, but I'm just not as knowledgeable

719
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 6: as all other therapeutic areas.

720
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 5: But I do see it a little bit more in

721
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 5: oncology and rare disease. Again, not the same as operation

722
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 5: warp speed, but I have seen it change people's minds

723
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 5: and perspectives a little bit.

724
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 2: I wanted to ask an operational question, which is how

725
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 2: important is distribution to the pharma business. And one of

726
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: the reasons I ask is because we recorded an episode

727
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: with the Celsius CEO and energy drinks are clearly a

728
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 2: very different business to pharma, but one thing maybe they

729
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: have in common is that a lot of your success

730
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: depends on actually getting into stores. And obviously, with medicines,

731
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: we are not talking about getting into stores. We're talking

732
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: about getting into hospitals and pharmacies and doctors' offices, and there,

733
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 2: I imagine you have to face some pretty stiff competition

734
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: from competitors like Pfizer or a Glaxo Smith Klein. So

735
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 2: how important is that and how do you how does

736
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: that process actually work? What are the discussions like when

737
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 2: it comes to distribution.

738
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say I think distribution is very important.

739
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 5: I think there are other important factors in terms of

740
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 5: making sure that medication reaches a patient, but distribution, I mean,

741
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 5: when I think about it, number one, it's got to

742
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 5: be there at the right time. So take walking into

743
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 5: CBS and wanting a flu shot. If CBS does not

744
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 5: have the flu shot available, there's a chance that you

745
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 5: might not go back for it. And so the importance

746
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 5: of being having the supply in the market when a

747
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 5: patient wants and needs it is extremely important, and distribution plays.

748
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 4: A role in that.

749
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 5: There's also many different things that you have to work

750
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 5: through in terms of storage. So some products are required

751
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 5: to be refrigerator stable, some are required to be frozen

752
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 5: at a certain temperature, some are required to be frozen

753
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 5: at a very cold temperature, and making sure that the

754
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 5: distribution network has that as well. So the conversation largely

755
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 5: revolves around that, what can they do to make sure

756
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 5: that we have the right amount of products in the

757
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 5: right channels and buy channels for our industry that means

758
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 5: pharmacies and or doctor's offices, and there's other places to

759
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 5: put it as well, you.

760
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 4: Know, but that's largely what that conversation does. And I would.

761
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 7: Say there is some differentiation in the marketplace from a

762
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 7: competitive standpoint, but I wouldn't say different Distribution specifically is

763
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 7: the number one variable for a differentiation between competition.

764
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: Tracy mentioned earlier. But the hot thing, it seems inform

765
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 3: right now that people are really excited about is gop

766
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: one drugs and weight loss, and if a company has

767
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: something in that category that investors get really excited and

768
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 3: bid up the stock. You know, imagine things go in

769
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 3: and out of style at various times, and people are

770
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 3: really excited about one particular category. Do you feel that

771
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 3: pressure that is like, Okay, this is the hot thing

772
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 3: right now weight loss, and we've you know, suppressed people's

773
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 3: appetite with an injection. Do you feel that pressure and

774
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: does that come from investors? Like are you playing in

775
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 3: the space? Do one of your forty products? Is it

776
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 3: going to be potentially related to this category? And I'm curious, like,

777
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 3: you know, you mentioned that sort of two way conversation.

778
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 3: You're telling investors about your pipeline, they're telling you what

779
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,479
Speaker 3: they expect. Does this sort of flavor of the month

780
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 3: or flavor of the year when it comes to what's

781
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: hot in drugs play into those conversations?

782
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 4: Not really, not for us, not from what I've heard

783
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 4: from investors.

784
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 5: I have seen it in other industries for sure, where

785
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 5: and maybe it's just because there's a hot new product

786
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 5: that is really core and central, that could be core

787
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 5: and central to somebody's strategy, but they're missing it GLP

788
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 5: versus what we've laid out is not core and central

789
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 5: to our strategy. And so therefore investors understand that and

790
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 5: quite frankly, rarely.

791
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 4: Ask about it. Okay, we're in the same yeah, so

792
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 4: just not as applicable to our company.

793
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: You worked at GE for a long time before going

794
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: on to Motejarna. I think there was another company in between.

795
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 2: But one thing I'm really curious about is are there

796
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: overlaps between pharma and something like the aircraft business. I

797
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: have to imagine that both of those industries have really

798
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: long lead times that you have to manage, and as

799
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 2: part of that, you also have to manage investor expectations.

800
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 4: They are so similar.

801
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,959
Speaker 5: So let me paint the aviation business that I worked

802
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 5: in for GE, which was I was in the commercial

803
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 5: engines division, Commercial Engines and Services. So think of you

804
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 5: know the seven three seven maps, a partnership with a

805
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 5: company out of France and GE called CFM. Is the

806
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 5: is the engine on that aircraft? And so when I

807
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,799
Speaker 5: was a CFO there, you're making bets on product families

808
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 5: that will be on aircraft for literally forty years. And

809
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 5: these are substantial investments. We're talking two three billion dollars

810
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 5: for a company to invest.

811
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 4: In, and you have to make the right bet. Are

812
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 4: you on the right.

813
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 5: Aircraft because you know, you can put an engine on

814
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 5: a bad aircraft and your engine might be great, but

815
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 5: if nobody buys aircraft, it's irrelevant. So not only do

816
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 5: you need to make the best engine, you need to

817
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 5: put it on the right aircraft, people need to buy it,

818
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 5: and then you need to obviously do everything else well.

819
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 5: From an execution standpoint.

820
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 4: That is no different here.

821
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 5: I mean, we are making you know, I mentioned our

822
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 5: RSV product as an example, thirty seven dollars in patients.

823
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 5: It's in the hundreds of millions of dollars from an

824
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 5: investment perspective.

825
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 4: But once it's ready, and if it's there.

826
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 5: You know that rspeed vac scene probably won't be tweaked

827
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,439
Speaker 5: too much. Maybe a little bit of tweaking over time, but.

828
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 4: We've just cleared a high barrier of entry. Where as

829
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 4: of right now there's only two competitors, and in the aviation.

830
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 5: Space there's there's largely three competitors. So they're very similar

831
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 5: and so the funding. So let's just give an example,

832
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 5: maybe give you a specific example. When I was at Aviation,

833
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 5: you think through that three billion dollar program, and we

834
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 5: had what we called risk and revenue share partners, which

835
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 5: was somebody to say, hey, we can't invest in six

836
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 5: product families times three billion dollars each. We're going to

837
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 5: have to have some partners that they'll make part of

838
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 5: the engine and they'll help invest in the technology and

839
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 5: they can share in the commercial rewards. That can be

840
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 5: very similar in pharmabiotech. So I mentioned Mark in our partnership.

841
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 5: They funded two hundred and fifty million dollars back in

842
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 5: twenty sixteen and additional moneys since thereafter, and.

843
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 4: They owned fifty percent of that program. So when you're.

844
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 5: Thinking about pulling together this entire pipeline across many different

845
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 5: therapeutic areas and they all cost a lot of money

846
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 5: to develop, you need partnerships, and then you know that

847
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 5: that partnership can provide more than just money.

848
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 4: In the case of Merk, they are great from a

849
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 4: commercial perspective.

850
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 5: They sell the leading oncology drug and the planet, and

851
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 5: the same in the aviation plant world. You've got to

852
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 5: have people that might make the best part of the

853
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 5: engine that you're talking about to improve fuel consumption. So

854
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 5: they're very similar models one that I think about quite

855
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 5: a bit. And on top of that, maybe the last

856
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 5: thing I'd say is they're both highly regulated. I already

857
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 5: mentioned the biotech space, but aviation, as you know, the

858
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 5: FAA and other agencies across the globe highly regulate the

859
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 5: aviation space to make sure that it is very safe

860
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 5: to fly aircraft across the globe.

861
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 3: I just have one last question, and I get you know,

862
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: for a sort of young company, growth company, you know,

863
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 3: macro may not affect you as it may affect a

864
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: more mature company. But I'm just curious, like, when the

865
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 3: FED raises rates dramatically, what does that mean for company

866
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 3: like ours?

867
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 5: Well, for us, again, we're a bit unique because we

868
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 5: have thirteen billion dollars solid into it our way and

869
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 5: maybe how I think about it for other companies ways,

870
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 5: but that might not have be fortunate to thirteen billion.

871
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 5: Thirteen billion we have I forget the exact number invested

872
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 5: in bonds, but primarily invested in bonds, and so we

873
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 5: look at duration, We look.

874
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: At you know, what does that investment portfolio want to

875
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 4: look like. We're not there to make money on that asset.

876
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 5: We are there to preserve capital to invest in what

877
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 5: is core to us, which is our R and D

878
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 5: and everything that we've spoken about today. But we look at, okay,

879
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 5: what's that mean? And you know, what's the duration we

880
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 5: should be taking out? Which is a happy problem to

881
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 5: have for us. I would say, I would say, you know,

882
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 5: for a company that is sitting on you know, one

883
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 5: and a half years of cash burn, and you're just

884
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 5: sitting there saying, Okay, you know, I'm about chech. I'm

885
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 5: not revenue yet, I'm not revenue generating yet. I've got

886
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 5: one and a half years of cash burn, you know,

887
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 5: in terms of cash on my balance sheet? What does

888
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 5: this mean? And what do I need to do? You know,

889
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 5: am I going to make it? You know how interest

890
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 5: rates affect me? Should I reposition myself?

891
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 4: Do I What do I need from a death perspective?

892
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 5: You know, it's just such a different animal in terms

893
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 5: of surviving that time period in a different way.

894
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 2: All Right, Jamie Mock, CFO of Moderna, thank you so

895
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: much for coming on all thoughts. That was a really

896
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: interesting conversation. I feel like I understand MODERNA now and

897
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: also the role of CFO a little bit better.

898
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 4: Well, thank you, Tracy angel I really enjoyed it and

899
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 4: it was a pleasure. Amazing you both.

900
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: So, Joe, that was really interesting and kind of surprisingly

901
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: thematic in a lot of ways. It seemed to touch

902
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: on a bunch of recent things we've been talking about,

903
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 2: like aviation.

904
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: Mike, Yeah, I wasn't expecting that.

905
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like distribution, although I take his point that that

906
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: isn't I guess, a main source of competitive differentiation. But

907
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm glad I've finally got the chance to ask a

908
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: CFO what he thinks when he sees the share price

909
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: going down. I always wanted to ask that.

910
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I mean I think it's really interesting. I mean,

911
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, like, right, any company

912
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 3: can talk about their vision or their roadmap, et cetera,

913
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 3: But when investors are selling your stock. I think I

914
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 3: appreciated his fourth rightness that like you have to take

915
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 3: that seriously on some level, like it seems like there's

916
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 3: only so far any company can go in terms of

917
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 3: staying on one path if investors don't like the path.

918
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And just on that note, I also thought it

919
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: was really interesting his discussion of I guess encouraging investors

920
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: to think over the long term, and also the idea

921
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 2: that everyone has a different definition of what the long

922
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: term actually is. And I suspect those definitions have been

923
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,319
Speaker 2: getting shorter in recent years. But you know, it can

924
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 2: range for twenty four months to like ten years, And

925
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: how do you actually convince people to stay with the company,

926
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 2: be excited about the product offering and the pipeline, but

927
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 2: not get too excited and expect that immediacy for things

928
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: that take a particularly long time to develop.

929
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: Totally, you know, the I was not expecting him to

930
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 3: like draw those analogies between pharma development and commercial engines,

931
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 3: but it makes so much sense because obviously you have this,

932
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 3: you know, this huge runway, no pun intended, and then

933
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 3: you're locked in for a long time and the product

934
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 3: isn't going to change after that until you're really taking

935
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 3: this sort of like extremely long uncertain bet. I also

936
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: really like to description of the processes that they have

937
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: in place for internal capital allocation. You know, you have

938
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 3: like forty different processes and that like competition element between

939
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: the different subject areas.

940
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, shall we leave it there.

941
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 3: Let's leave it there, all right.

942
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the Audlots podcast. I'm

943
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 2: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and.

944
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

945
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: Follow our producers Kerman Rodriguez at Kerman Arman, Dashel Bennett

946
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 3: at Dashbot, and Kilbrooks at Kelbrooks. Thank you to our

947
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 3: producer Moses Ondem from our Oddlots content. Go to Bloomberg

948
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 3: dot com slash odd Lotshere we have transcripts, a blog,

949
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 3: and a newsletter, and you can chat about all of

950
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 3: our episodes with fellow listeners in the discord twenty four

951
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 3: to seven discord dot gg slash odlock.

952
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 2: And if you enjoy Oddlots, if you like it when

953
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: we talk to CFOs about what they actually do on

954
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: a daily basis, then please leave us a positive review

955
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are

956
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 2: a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our

957
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: episodes absolutely ad free. All you need to do is

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Speaker 2: connect your Bloomberg account to Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening

959
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 5: In