WEBVTT - How Kleptomania Works 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.880 Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray. 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:07.480 It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff you should know 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.319 from house Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, and welcome to 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.799 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, The Chuck, The Chuck. The 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.360 Chuck is on Fire. How you doing, Chuck? You've been 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:26.440 sitting on that one for a while, just since yesterday. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.400 We've actually have not recorded in two weeks. And I 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:30.200 have a feeling that Josh has been planning that for 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.080 two weeks. I just told you. I came up with 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.920 it yesterday. But I was listening to your sweet voice 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:38.440 while I swept the floors in my house. Okay, and 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:40.960 you think of dog here, you think of me? I thought, 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:43.960 like I thought it was your voice that made me 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:47.960 think of you. Chee Um, I thought, Man, I've been 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.839 opening up the show pretty boring wise lately. Well, I'm 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.520 glad you're talking about this now then. Yeah, anyway, Chuck, 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.960 how you doing? Good sir? It has been a long time, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.800 hasn't it. Okay? So um, you know it's stealing season, buddy, 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.680 is it? Yeah? It pretty much kicks off in November 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.360 and really goes up through the roof on what Black Friday. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.559 It's much more difficult to steal during Cyber Monday. But uh, yeah, 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.360 Christmas comes around. People love to steal. People love to 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:23.480 hold people up with guns, knives, threats of physical violence, 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.680 that kind of thing. Wow, that's this is inspiring. Yeah, 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.560 it is. UM. And actually it turns out that this 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:34.240 stealing season will probably be worse than usual because there 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:38.880 was a report released UM called the Global Retail Theft Barometer. 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.560 It was released UM mid November, a couple of weeks back, 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.800 the GRTB. Yeah, I'm a fan, I know you are, UM, 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:51.160 and it said that this year, UM businesses have lost 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.800 retail businesses have lost a hundred and fifteen billion dollars 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:59.080 worldwide from stealing from theft. What what's America? Do you 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.559 have that four five billion? Wow? Because in our article 0:02:02.600 --> 0:02:05.480 it says ten billion. Ten billion is like an average, 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.120 So that's a huge increase. It is. Actually I'll tell 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.400 you what. Usually, UM there, I guess there's an increase 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:16.080 every year, and usually worldwide, Uh, it increases by about 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.160 one point five I wonder if that's in direct relation 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.120 to the cost of goods increasing. I think that that 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.080 actually does have something to do with it. In this 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.480 time article. I read, UM this year, uh six percent 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:32.160 increase worldwide and in America North America, there's an eight 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.520 point one percent increase. So people are just stealing left 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.040 and right. And they the the authors of the study UM, 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:43.040 the Center for Retail Research apparently talked to cops, talked 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.160 to shoplifters, UM and said, you know what's going on? 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:51.240 They talked to shoplifters. How so do you know people 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.600 who've been busted for shopoling? Okay, I thought you meant 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.080 that had not been caught. They just hang around Macy's 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.040 and they're like, you look like a shoplifter, you scuzz ball, 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:01.040 or I saw what you did and I won't report 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:03.480 you if you answer these fine questions exactly and give 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:08.000 me a saw buck. Um, what what is that? I 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:09.560 think we've gone over this before. I think it's a 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:15.480 fiver or okay, so um, no, it's a ten. I 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.560 bet we get some listener mill and I bet it's 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.000 either a five or ten. UM, so chuck. Where they 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:22.200 found from talking to these people is that there is 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:28.760 an increase in UM the perception that companies are making 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.760 off with all this money during while everybody else is 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.040 having hard times and so they kind of feel justified 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:38.560 in stealing, and they're seeing a much a rise in 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.960 the middle class stealing people who can afford stuff and 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:48.040 just aren't paying. Um, and apparently this this victimless crime. 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.560 That's kind of another perception. You're stealing from a giant corporation. Uh, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:57.040 in the United States, we paid an extra four hundred 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:02.520 and thirty six bucks a household in consumer goods prices. Yeah, 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.720 that's what happens. Yeah, same with credit card fraud, the 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:07.880 shrinkage along, right, Yeah, it same with credit card fraud. 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:10.800 That's why, I mean, that's not all why, but one 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.000 reason why the interest rates are so sky high, because 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.000 people say, I just charge a bunch of stuff and 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.920 not pay it. Insurance fraud. It's just it's just, you know, 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.240 that's stupid into that stupid credit card company is gonna 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.120 take the hit, but they don't, although they should they 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:25.560 but they don't. They don't take a hit. They pass 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.520 it all along. Of course they do. That's how it works. 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:32.080 We're all slaves, chuck suckers. Anyway, somewhere in that those 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:40.040 those statistics I just um, you know, spewed out. But um, 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:44.200 there are a very tiny pop percentage of that population 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:49.080 that are kleptomaniacs. I feel like I just gave birth 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:54.440 to a watermelon, a square watermelon. Um, yes, Josh, kleptomania 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:57.800 is not exactly In fact, it's not at all shoplifting. 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.320 Shoplifting is the means by which you would perform your kleptomania. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:05.960 That's an excellent definition, Chuck. And I've read this article too, 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:07.599 and I know that that was not in there. That 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:11.240 was a special just made it up. Although I would 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.800 say you could steal from anyone and that would be 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.320 clept to me. It didn't have to be a store. Yeah, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:19.240 but apparently, um, it is generally stores or parties. But yeah, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.400 if you're gonna steal from another from an individual, it's 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.719 usually at a party, I think. Um, but it generally 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:29.840 is retailers. Let's what what differentiates kleptomaniacs from shoplifters. Well, 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.480 there's actually a definition, as outlined by the American Psychiatric 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:40.440 Associations Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders that says 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:45.520 that they outline this criteria, Josh, the individual repeatedly fails 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.279 to resist the impulse to steal items that are not 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:53.320 needed for personal use or monetary value. That's number one. Uh. 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:57.640 The individual experiences tension before stealing. Uh, the tension is 0:05:57.680 --> 0:06:04.200 relieved after stealing, and the theft is not due to anger, revenge, delusions, hallucinations, 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.279 or impaired judgment. Um, and I think there's yeah, there's 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:12.480 one more psychological disorders can't account for the stealing behaviors 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.760 different other psychological disorders. It's still a little play acting. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:19.039 Oh I love this. Okay, Um, I'm going to be 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:23.440 a kleptomaniac. You are going to be a tube of lipstick, 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.600 all right, Okay, hold on, let me get into character. Man, 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.280 you're you're a master. Okay, I'm there, Okay, all right. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.480 So I'm walking into the store and i'm, you know, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.359 looking for some sunglasses that I intend to purchase, and 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.920 all of a sudden, I feel this horrible tension. My 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.840 stomach is tight. I'm starting to sweat a little bit 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.599 because I just spotted Chuck, the tube of lipstick, who 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.880 is sitting there as an inanimate object. Because if you talk, 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:53.600 then that's delusion. It doesn't count kleptomania. So I'm looking 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.359 at Chuck. I'm feeling this horrible tension. I know that 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.279 I'm going to steal. I don't want to steal, but 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.239 I have to because it's the only way to relieve 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.600 the tension. So I've just grabbed Chuck and put him 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.120 in my pocket, and I don't even wear lipstick. There's 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:08.839 no explanation for this. I make it out of the store, 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:11.000 and as I enter into the rest of the mall 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.160 and start to feel like I'm not about to be caught, 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.400 that tension goes away, maybe replaced with a little bit 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.760 of a thrill, a kick right, and then boom, I 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.239 get hit by this crushing guilt. I've just stolen again. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.440 Not only have I stolen from something from somebody, I 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:34.600 have failed to, yet again, resist this overwhelming urge. So 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.080 I take the lipstick and I go to my grandmother's house, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.920 who's now dead, but in the scenarios, she's actually alive, 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:44.040 and I just put it in with the rest of 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:48.840 her lipstick, go about my business, feeling generally bad about myself. Toda, 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.360 can I talk now? Yeah, First of all, it was 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.200 a little weird being in your pocket. Said that I 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.160 liked it, But yeah, dude, you just hit on a 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:01.320 lot of the major points, uh tension of tension, guilt, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.560 A rush, giving away what you stole, stealing something you 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.760 don't need, or hoarding. Sometimes, yeah, a lot of times 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.560 people will hoard it. UM. I read a case of 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.520 a woman in the early twentieth century who was caught shoplifting. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.880 Upper middle class. Um. They caught her, went to her 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.960 house and found all this stuff that she'd stolen, with 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.160 the price text like, clearly not used. There's not a 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:28.960 no one. They don't use the stuff that they steal. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:30.960 I've got a hoarder for you, buddy, let's hear it. 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.680 This dude in April of this year in Israel was busted. 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:38.240 They went to his house and they found motorcycle, helmets, 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:42.520 um watches, Louis Vuitton, handbags, hundred and fifty pair of shoes, 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.000 two hundred pair of sunglasses, olive oil, laundri to church, 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.760 all kinds of stuff unopened in this guy's house, literally 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.520 stacked in in every corner of the house, from room 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.439 to room. And he admitted that he had been shoplifting 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:58.720 for a decade, every time he went to a story, 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.760 shoplifted for a decade. And he clearly lived alone. And 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.160 now he has a wife and son, and he has 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.240 a family know to keep their mouth. Well, this is 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:07.920 the funny part. And of course this is from an 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.959 Israeli newspaper. It says his wife and son are suspected 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.880 of knowing of his activity but doing nothing about it. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.199 I don't know if that's a formal charge. But he 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.600 also was busted with a big um roll of stickers 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.840 that say like paid for thank you for coming, that 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:25.760 kind of thing. Oh yeah, see, that was part of 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.240 his deal. He would go in there and like put 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.400 that on his big TV box or whatever. I wonder 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.719 if that disqualifies him as a kleptomaniac, though I don't 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.839 think why because he pre planned it. Huh. Because one 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.959 of the things that Freud and Rich is that how 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:44.360 we say his name the author of this article, PhD, 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:49.679 isn't it? No? I thought it was Craig Freudlick. No, 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.040 there's no hell oh, there's not totally invented that. I've 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:54.480 been reading it that way for two and a half year. 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.480 We're going to call him Dr Freud. Okay, okay. Dr 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.480 Freud pointed out that um P boll who are kleptomaniacs 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:04.560 true kleptomaniacs or I think from what I gather, we 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:07.280 don't call him kleptomaniacs. We call him People with kleptomania 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.800 don't go into a store intending to steal. They don't 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:14.000 go to steal, they're just overcome by the impulse when 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.200 they're in the store. Yeah, that makes sense. The other 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:18.840 thing that makes that guy hinky is a candidate for 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.720 a person with kleptomania, is that he's a man. Yeah, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.720 women more often and this is a little hinky too, 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:29.200 but women are are more often diagnosed with kleptomania. But 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.439 that has slanted a little bit because I think it 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.320 said that women are less likely to admit to it 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.280 or to report it to like their psychiatrists, that kind 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:41.480 of thing. No, men, men who steal go to prison, 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:45.600 women who still psychiatric evaluations. Yeah, so that that could 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:50.079 definitely slam the population. But traditionally, um people think that 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:55.160 kleptomania is a feminine disorder. Have you ever seen an 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:59.360 Ice Storm? No? I need to. Really, that's a great movie. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.640 He said that shamefully. I do feel kind of ashamed. Actually, 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:07.080 the mother and daughter Joan Allen and Christina Ricchi both 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.280 shoplift in that film at separate times, and I think 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:15.040 she lift Heartbreakers that's Sigourney Weaver and um, what's her name, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.200 Jennifer Lovett. Yeah, no, I'm talking about The Ice Storm. 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.880 I don't think. I don't think so. Yeah. In fact, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.680 I think Joan Allen actually steals lipstick. There you go. 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.960 Maybe that was me. Yeah, it is one of my 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:31.360 favorite movies. Yes, Josh, early teens and twenties. If we're 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.640 talking more about the pattern, it's usually when it begins, yeah, 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:36.840 but it can run up to Uh. I think they've 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.720 found kleptomaniacs in their late seventies. Yeah. Didn't we do 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:44.640 a story about Japanese elderly that are stealing, Yeah, just 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.839 so they'll get caught in like have a friend. Yeah, 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.160 they're so lonely, they're trying to basically make friends with 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.080 the police by being arrest So that's not clept many, 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.360 that's just shoping. Uh. And I don't know. I was 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.000 thinking about when I saw that in the late seventies. Um, 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:01.720 I thought of that Sign Fell episode where Jerry's finds 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.319 out that his parents steal batteries and in turn finds 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.880 out that almost all elderly people steal battery Yeah. Yeah, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:18.240 for their tip calculators. The Willard I'm ruined. You know 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.520 another thing, Josh, is uh, you hit on it again 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.600 with your little play acting. They usually steal stuff they 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:29.400 can afford, and stuff like shampoo it listed and sunglasses 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:34.280 are big and uh, they like famously went on a 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:39.440 writer went on a Horowitz. Excuse me, no, yeah, really 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.920 that's her name. I had no idea she famously stole 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.800 several thousand dollars from sex fifth Avenue, five thousand. I think, yeah, 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.080 she can definitely swing that. Yeah, and I don't know 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.760 if it ever came out that they did they ever 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.800 plead kleptomania or anything with her? Did they know quietly 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.200 tried to you know, pay their fine? And yeah, And 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.120 that that brings up a pretty good point is a 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:08.679 kleptomania defense is really really hard to prove or to 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:13.200 successfully get off on it is you know why, Well, 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.559 your defense lawyer must argue when the argument that there 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.520 was no reason for you to steal it, no financial gain, 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.040 no revenge. They gotta prove all those things beyond a 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.959 reasonable doubt. First of all, Yeah, that's one you want 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.000 to follow up. Well, I know that the Justice Department 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.920 doesn't recognize kleptomania is a defense. So if you're for 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.120 federal charges, don't even try it. Yeah, exactly, And that's 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:38.960 that's like the Americans with Disabilities Act, that's in legislation. 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:46.839 So good luck, and so chuck. Kleptomania, what is it? 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.360 Is it an actual disease? Should it be covered in 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.760 the Americans with Disabilities Act? Should the d o J 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:54.320 finally open up their eyes and be like, okay, okay, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.240 there's such a thing as kleptomania. Well, we don't know 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.480 for sure. There's uh, some people think it's like tagged 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:06.000 onto other psychological disorders, like what like obsessive, compulsive, or 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.680 personality and mood disorders. Okay, so it may like it 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:16.600 could be a symptom or a byproduct of a larger disorder, right, yes, okay, 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:19.520 but by and large it's classified as an impulse control 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:25.400 disorder like gambling or pyromania, fire starting awesome or uh 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:30.680 trick o tillomania. Yes, I've never heard of that. Yeah. 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.360 Obsessive hair pulling, Yeah, I wonder if that means pulling 0:14:33.400 --> 0:14:38.160 your own hair. Other people's probably both, I don't know. Huh. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.560 That's an excellent question, actually, and it got our producer 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.640 Jerry giggling, so you know it's good. It's good. Yeah. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.080 So it's either a symptom of a larger disorder or 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:52.520 it's its own impulse control disorder. UM. One of the 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.920 reasons we don't know is because treatments UM for kleptomania 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.400 are hit or miss. Yeah, haven't studied a lot. And 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.560 the other thing is like it hit me like everything 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.520 else with the brain. It's still sort of a mystery, 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.560 it is. And one of the reasons why they have 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:13.640 had trouble studying cleptomania is finding kleptomaniacs. Like I found 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.760 a study from two thousand two that was just getting 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.040 off the ground at Stanford, and UM, these people were 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.600 looking for twenty four kleptomaniacs for their study. And we're 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.920 having to go on TV radio everywhere to try to 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.360 find like true kleptomaniacs. And one of um, this guy 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.000 who was quoted in a in this article on the study, UM, 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.800 a guy named will cut Chick, which is a pretty 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:40.040 cool name if you ask me. He's a Toronto psychologist. 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:42.760 He said, Um, in the four hundred and fifty cases 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.360 I've assessed, probably only one or two of the people 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.800 were actual kleptomaniacs. We're talking about a very, very small, 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.000 fascinating part of the larger population, didn't they I think 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.960 I saw some in the article. They said, maybe five 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:02.760 of psychiatric patients, Yeah, admit to being are our diagnosis kleptomania, right, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.800 and and you just you revealed something else too. I 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:07.680 think a lot of it is admission. I mean, like, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.880 remember when me, the play acting kleptomaniac, left and went 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.320 to the mall, was crushed by guilt and I wanted 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:16.760 to get the object away from me. Do you remember? 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:22.840 The desire to keep this secret? I think probably keeps 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.920 a lot of people from coming forward. Ye. So we 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.520 have no idea how large or small this population is. 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.240 But I think from people who examine shoplifters, they find 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:36.600 that the actual kleptomaniacs among them are a very small population. Um. 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.560 You know who has studied it, the University of Minnesota 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.680 School of Medicine. Yeah, specifically psychiatrist John Grant, and he 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:48.640 studied the brain and there are a few little deposits, 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.240 a few theories here. One is that a a defect 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.920 in a molecule that transports serotonin might be messed up. Yeah. Well, 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.520 not the defect was messed up. That would if the 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.040 defect this messed up in your potentially head trauma could 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.800 cause something like this, It could damage the circuits in 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.640 the frontal lobes. Right, that could maybe happen and decrease 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.480 in the fine structure of white matter in the frontal lobe. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.600 But it's all in the frontal lobe, right, and the 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:18.000 olympic system, which, as of course we know is the 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:22.720 brain's reward center. Um. So that's in the frontal lobe, right, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.520 which also controls um impulse or the frontal lobe controls 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.800 impulse mood. Yeah, so clearly it's it could be its 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.160 own disorder in the frontal lobe. Pasons going on up there. Um. 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:38.960 So did we say that treatments don't work all that well? Like? Um, 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:43.680 Sometimes U S SR Rise work, but not all the time. 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.320 Cognitive therapy work. Sometimes you want to talk about some 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.119 of the cognitive therapy. Yeah, cognitive theory cracks me up 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.679 a little bit. It's like snapping a rubber band on 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:56.160 your wrist when you have like an impure thought. Um. 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:01.240 Covert sensitization, Josh, is when a patient wants to steal 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.480 and then all of a sudden You're you're trained to 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:07.480 imagine the consequences, which, to me, that's like I thought 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.639 that's what you're just supposed to teach people. It's like, 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.200 um no, it's like like you're get in trouble, bring 0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:14.320 a cat in the face, like every time it does 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.800 something you don't want with a little water bottle. Uh. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.560 Aversion therapy that is, if you feel the urge to steal, 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.800 you will be told to do something like holding your 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:27.600 breath until it's literally painful. Oh, I'm sorry. That's the 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:33.040 one that's like you are that covert sensitization that is 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.119 kind of what we as humans should be walking around 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.119 doing at all times, right, thinking about the consequences of 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.040 your actions. Uh. And then the last one that uses 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:48.600 systematic desensitization, which is relaxation therapy and substituting relaxing feelings 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.640 instead of the urge to steal. All of those are 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.760 probably the most difficult thing kleptomaniac will ever attempt to. 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:58.360 I found another little study though, let's hear it check. 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.840 In April of this year, they started a test where 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.440 they gave kleptomaniacs or cleptomania, what do we call them again, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.760 those with kleptomania, people with cleptomania. I guess no one 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.640 wants to be called a maniac in any way. Uh. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.720 They they studied they got twenty five habitual thieves men 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.800 and women between seventeen seventy five, and they gave them 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:25.160 the drug nal trek Zone, which is what they give 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:28.560 alcoholics and drug addicts to curb their their bad behavior. 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.080 Is that the stuff that makes your hangover really really bad? 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.720 I think so it's supposed to quell those impulses, and 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.080 it kind of worked. Um. After eight weeks they found 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.080 that two thirds of the people who had not give 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.480 them the placebo had no urge to steal, and only 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.560 like eight percent had placebo did so. They also ate 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.600 their vegetables and went to bed when they were told 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:54.320 to be good drug we could use that, chuck. Is 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.720 that it almost we're going to travel back to the 0:19:57.760 --> 0:19:59.880 beginning now or this should have been at the beg 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.399 name kleptomania was um. I think it first appears in 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:10.440 literature in three seven CE. Okay, Uh St Augustine admitted 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:15.200 to Uh, lusting to thieve by St. Augustine was something 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.120 mounts he really was if he existed at all um 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.200 and then it ends up in the medical literature. In 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.520 eighteen sixteen, a Swiss physician by the name of Matthey 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:29.000 wrote of a unique madness characterized by the tendency to 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.520 steal without motive and without necessity. Do you have an 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.720 eighteen sixteen And then Freud came in and said that 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:39.280 has something to do with penis envy, no kidding, And 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.480 now it's a forty five well not just a kleptomania, 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.680 but shoplifting is a forty five billion dollar in this country, 0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.840 took off from eighteen sixteen to two thousand nine. It's 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.920 good stuff, all right, Well that's kleptomania. If you want 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.719 to know anymore, you can read the article by our 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:59.720 own Dr Freud um by typing in kleptomania. Remember it 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.399 because with the cake uh and the handy search bar 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:04.520 at how stuff works dot com. And since I just 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:12.000 said that, of course, dear friends, this means listener. Mayo, Josh, 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:17.000 I'm just gonna call this hippie Rob followed up, you're 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.560 old buddy, hippie. Should you say something about hippie Rob? Well, 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.000 let's wait till after h Hi Josh and Chuck. I 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.280 like him when they stripped that way. I don't normally 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:29.120 right into TV shows or radio shows, etcetera. But I've 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.520 heard Josh talk about Hippie Rob and at the end 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:33.440 of the Hangover podcast, he mentioned that he wanted to 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.560 hear from people who knew of his whereabouts. I do, 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.760 in fact know at Hippie Rob and wanted to offer 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.240 my knowledge of this person to determine if it was 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:43.520 the same hippie Rob. And I've seen this email and 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.680 I know that it's a real Hippi Rob because he 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.480 capitalized the h and the robber. The hippie Rob I 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:53.959 know is originally from vinyl Haven, Maine, a medium side 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.080 a medium sized island off the coast of down East 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:02.360 Main and say things weird there. Dummy his full name, 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:04.520 I didn't say his full name here, but it's Robert 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:09.400 Blank and uh. He has thick, blonde dreadlocks. He's sure 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:11.720 tell tale sign of a hippie. Sure he was about 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:13.639 five ten and never talked about his age, but I 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:16.560 would put him in the upper thirties and possibly lower 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:21.600 forties in nine. He loves coffee, hates alcohol, and he 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:23.840 mentioned one of his other habits that he loves, which 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:25.639 we're not going to mention on the air. But his 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.160 name is Hippie Rob. So fill in the blanks. Uh. 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:31.680 He squatted at my apartment in Portland, Maine the summer 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:35.160 of nine. So close. At the time, he was living 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:38.840 off the Social Security from a quote permanent work related accident. 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.960 I think we've all known a hippie Rob, but something 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.600 told me that his permanent disability was not physically related. 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:46.600 I would see him every few summers in Maine and 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:48.920 he would shoot the breeze. We would shoot the breeze 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.040 while drinking coffee and doing other things. He was a 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.520 terrible mooch. I know that he loved to travel the 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.040 warm places in the winter, with his favorite being Hawaii. 0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:59.840 And uh, if you read this on the air, could 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.080 you have a shout out to my girlfriend Kristen, who 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:04.880 was an amazing sport about me listening to the podcast 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.920 Galen from Portland, Maine. So, Josh, is it can't be Rob? 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.240 Know there's a couple of things missing here. Is so close? 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:15.119 I mean the age one thing is this. No one 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.640